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Can Science Ground Morality?

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Of course not, as we have often noted in these pages.

James Davison Hunter’s and Paul Nedelisky’s  Where the New Science of Morality Goes Wrong is a great primer on the subject.  Their take down of Sam Harris is especially good:

The new moral scientists sometimes provide certain examples that they think illustrate that science has demonstrated (or can demonstrate) that certain moral claims are true or false. A favorite is the health or medical analogy. Neuroscientist and author Sam Harris, for example, employs the health analogy to argue that science can demonstrate moral value. A bit more circumspect than some who use the analogy, he recognizes that he’s assuming that certain observable properties are tied to certain moral values. Harris puts it this way:

Science cannot tell us why, scientifically, we should value health. But once we admit that health is the proper concern of medicine, we can then study and promote it through science…. I think our concern for well-being is even less in need for justification than our concern for health is.… And once we begin thinking seriously about human well-being, we will find that science can resolve specific questions about morality and human values.12

Harris makes two assumptions—first, that well-being is a moral good, and, second, that we know what the observable properties of well-being are. Yet he doesn’t see these assumptions as problematic for the scientific status of his argument. After all, he reasons, we make similar assumptions in medicine, but we can all recognize that it is still a science. But he still doesn’t recognize that this thinking is fatal to his claim that science can determine moral values. To make the problem for Harris more vivid, compare his argument above with arguments that share the same logic and structure:

  • Science cannot tell us why, scientifically, we should value the enslavement of Africans. But once we admit that slavery is the proper concern of social science, we can then study and promote it through science. I think our concern for embracing slavery is even less in need for justification than our concern for health is. And once we begin thinking seriously about slavery, we will find that science can resolve specific questions about morality and human values.

  • Science cannot tell us why, scientifically, we should value the purging of Jews, gypsies, and the mentally disabled from society. But once we admit that their eradication is the proper concern of social science, we can then study and promote it through science.

  • Science cannot tell us why, scientifically, we should value a prohibition on gay marriage. But once we admit that such a prohibition is the proper concern of social science, we can then study and promote it through science.

 

Comments
Dionisio @113: I perceive you love your God and neighbour as yourself. "The Christian Scripture leaves no room for misinterpretation of the most fundamental concepts, precepts and principles." A ‘stickler’ question; how about, Genesis 1-11, and the moral law at Sinai through which God publicly testified he is sanctifying truth, including he created in six days? Jesus, as truth (Jn 14:6) said he fulfilled to the dot the law (Matt 5:17-19, asking the Father to sanctify us in his truth (Jn 17:17). The Father said he sanctified the emerging nation of the Jew in his law (Exod 31:12-18) with very clear instructions (Num 12:1-9). Christians certainly circumvent the morality contained in verbatim divine law by grounding it in consensus science. It never amazes me that, apart from Dawkins, who has said deluded are evolutionist theistic Christians (and he is a fine one to talk), that people who are atheists have to my limited knowledge, in relation to ethics and morality, do not give the Judaeo-Christian movement a regular broadside reminder, that in terms of a morality, the movement hardly practices what it preaches. It does not keep in the Ten Commandments a major law dealing with worthy worship. Of course, atheistic people not doubt think that any God who said he created in six days would be 'crackers' and unworthy? well, do Christians never think that we may be a root cause of why so many atheists? 'Unless I see God created in six days, I will not believe.' All the best mwmw
February 24, 2017
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Seversky @ 127 Thank you for your reply. You possibly didn’t see my previous posts #97 and #107, to which my post #116 was added. Before I continue, I want to say, that I’m not trying in any way to establish, that what the Nazis did was in any way moral. Since I belong to one of the minorities they wanted to eliminate, I have every reason not to. My point is rather: Can we establish the wrongness of the Nazis given your “inter-subjective agreement” theory? And I think your idea can’t establish this point. Or maybe I’m overlooking something that you can enlighten me.
It’s okay, I’m not asking you consider discussing morals with a mosquito or a virus.
That’s a relief;o). But my point isn’t: mosquitoes are moral agents. My point is rather: Given your “inter-subjective agreement” theory the question of who is and who isn’t a moral agent is itself a (foundational) moral question. Depending on the answer the entity in question is worthy of my attempts at “inter-subjective agreement” (humans) or not (mosquitoes). Somewhere in between those two there is a limit that divides moral agents from non-agents. You implicitly agree yourself when you say: “The groups they were trying to downgrade were human by any reasonable standards”. This “reasonable standard” is obviously a moral standard. If you think otherwise then please elaborate. And (given your theory) exactly here do we have a moral question that must be answered prior to any “inter-subjective agreement”: Whenever you start an attempt at “inter-subjective agreement” you have answered this question in the affirmative beforehand. So where did you get this “reasonable standard” by which you establish, who is and who isn’t a moral agent? Seemingly not by “inter-subjective agreement”. And this causes a dilemma for your theory: Either the moral question of who is a moral agent worthy of “inter-subjective agreement” can be answered prior to an independently of any “inter-subjective agreement” in which case “inter-subjective agreement” is obviously not the (only) source of moral codes. Or the question can only be answered by “inter-subjective agreement”, in which case your theory can’t work in practice at least not in the discussed example.
Trying to re-classify certain groups of people as “Untermenschen” or “Volksschädlinge” doesn’t – and didn’t – get the Nazis off the hook.
The word “re-classify” can only be applied, when there is a moral(!) classification prior to any “inter-subjective agreement” with the Nazis. The Nazis didn’t see “Untermenschen” as moral agents. So in their view, they didn’t “re-classify” anything. They just worked according to their own classification. And that’s the problem: If “inter-subjective agreement” is the only standard by which to decide moral questions, then the Nazis didn’t do anything wrong. They just simply didn't agree to your answer of the question who is a moral agent. Since no “inter-subjective agreement” between the two parties was established, where should any moral obligation come from? Not from the non-existing “inter-subjective agreement”. So either you agree that there is another source prior to “inter-subjective agreement” or your criticism of the Nazis exterminating “Untermenschen” becomes incoherent. I don’t question whether the Nazis did behave amorally. They did. But this conclusion cannot be established, when you make “inter-subjective agreement” the foundation of moral obligations. Whenever anyone doesn’t agree with any moral code, then this code doesn’t apply to him, because he didn’t give his “inter-subjective agreement”.
I see the function of morals as regulating the way human individuals behave towards one another in society, so human beings are the agents who reach agreement with each other about what is and isn’t moral.
How did you establish this view? By “inter-subjective agreement”? If not, why should anyone else be morally obligated to follow this view? Did the Nazis give their consent to this view? If not, why were they morally obligated to accept it? If they were, how was this obligation established?
human beings could, if they wanted, extend moral obligations to the treatment of other animal species.
Yes they could. But given your view this would be a moral obligation established between the humans involved, not a moral obligation to the mosquitoes. Such an agreement wouldn't make mosquitoes moral agents. The Nazis could have among themselves agreed to some moral obligations to those they called "Untermenschen", but this also wouldn't have established the moral agent status for those so called "Untermenschen".
the Nazis had no moral right to do what they did without consulting them and getting their agreement, which was never going to happen and they knew it.
How was this moral obligation established for the Nazis? They didn’t agree to there being any moral agents with whom they could have talked about any agreement, so why were they obligated to do so? Do there exist moral obligations prior to and independent of “inter-subjective agreement”, that established this point? If yes, why are you talking about “inter-subjective agreement” establishing moral obligations when in reality you say yourself that there are prior obligations established differently? If no, how on earth do you think you can get the Nazis to have any moral obligation to those they don’t see as moral agents?hgp
February 24, 2017
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KF at 118. "Folks, The only thing that can successfully ground morality is a world-root level IS that is also inherently the root of OUGHT." Dionisio gets your meaning, I appear slow to grasp. Is, "IS", God, and "OUGHT" the rest, but dependant on God? Please could you explain (in a few sentences if possible!). A bit like, Jesus says he is the vine, we are the branches, and the Father is the vine dresser? (Jn 15:1-11). Thanks mwmw
February 24, 2017
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The consensus of Christian theologists over the interpretation of scriptures, the rational arguments about why the Bible is an accurate and complete picture of what God values and demands along with various criticisms of other holy texts which make the same claim represents the use of human reasoning and criticism, which is what I’ve been suggesting all along. The is the same process which you claim can only produce subjective opinions
It took you what, 7+ posts of confabulation, and when you finally decide to explicitly state your claim you offer a strawman. Good job.
So, when faced with an actual moral problem, how are you in any better position?
So your argument is that since we can do "good" science, we can also poof good moral standards into existence based on nothing but our opinions and Sev's useless criteria of "intersubjective agreement"? Adorable! Pray-tell, why is rape bad?Vy
February 24, 2017
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The groups they were trying to downgrade were human by any reasonable standards and the Nazis had no moral right to do what they did without consulting them and getting their agreement, which was never going to happen and they knew it.
I don't know whether your willfully ignorant or genuinely oblivious but when you make the claim that X had no moral right to do Y to Z based on your subjective standards of what ought to be, you are making a vacuous and utterly useless claim. The way you responded to hgp without really engaging it makes me realize you're quite skilled at hedging.Vy
February 24, 2017
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critical rationalist @125-126 [follow-up to comments posted @110-113, 115, 120-124] What exactly do you know with certainty that is not true in the Bible?Dionisio
February 23, 2017
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hgp @ 116
This brings us to the next problem with your “inter-subjective agreement” theory: Who is a “moral agent” worthy of “inter-subjective agreement”?
I see the function of morals as regulating the way human individuals behave towards one another in society, so human beings are the agents who reach agreement with each other about what is and isn't moral.
No one asks any mosquitoes sucking blood on their arms for consent before killing them. No one asks bacteria for their consent before exterminating them with antibiotics. Even people like Seversky, I would say. The reason is simple: bacteria and mosquitoes are not “moral agents” that should be asked for their consent.
Exactly, although human beings could, if they wanted, extend moral obligations to the treatment of other animal species.
So this question is a moral question in Seversky’s theory that must be asked by necessity before any “inter-subjective agreement” can be even attempted: Am I interacting with a moral agent whose views and interests have to be taken into account or not? If Seversky is not interacting with an “moral agent”, then “inter-subjective agreement” doesn’t need to be attempted.
It's okay, I'm not asking you consider discussing morals with a mosquito or a virus.
In the Nazi ideology all those people mentioned by Seversky above were not seen as moral agents, they were seen as “Untermenschen” (sub-humans) and/or “Volksschädlinge” (a word associating such people with vermin); so obviously given Nazi ideology, no one needed any consent from those people, since their views didn’t count, since they were not seen as “moral agents”.
Trying to re-classify certain groups of people as “Untermenschen” or “Volksschädlinge” doesn't - and didn't - get the Nazis off the hook. The groups they were trying to downgrade were human by any reasonable standards and the Nazis had no moral right to do what they did without consulting them and getting their agreement, which was never going to happen and they knew it.Seversky
February 23, 2017
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@Dionisio In 10 minutes, I’ve found a number of different interpretations of the Parable of the Good Samaritan. One is that the injured man is allegory for Adam and Jesus. From Wikipedia…
Some Christians, such as Augustine, have interpreted the parable allegorically, with the Samaritan representing Jesus Christ, who saves the sinful soul.[3] Others, however, discount this allegory as unrelated to the parable's original meaning[3] and see the parable as exemplifying the ethics of Jesus.[4]
Furthermore, one could claim nothing conflicts with nursing an injured infidel back to heath, so he is fit to choose islam or death. It could be seen as being merciful, to allow the man a clear head to contemplate his response. Note, I’m not advocating this at all. My point is that should you try to support your claim that it’s obvious as to who your neighbor is and what it would mean to Love them, you will make arguments or criticize other interpretations. That’s human reasoning and criticism, which has been my point. That aways comes before experience.critical rationalist
February 23, 2017
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@Dionisio I wrote:
What other means do you have at your disposal to choose between different claims of divine moral truth other than human reasoning and criticism? Isn’t this the very same means that is supposedly deficient and makes moral claims mere opinions? Specifically, what’s the difference between having an opinion that some source is the one accurate and complete source of divine of moral values and duties, and having an option that some value or duty is moral? Should you actually explain how you know any such source is accurate and complete, will you not make rational arguments to support your conclusion and present criticism of others that make the same claim? Will it not be based on some assumptions, such as what a perfectly good being would value and demand, or that you know because God wanted you to know via some inexplicable means?
You wrote:
I’m very far from being able to “infallibly identify” anything by myself. I make mistakes like everybody else, perhaps sometimes even more. However, I believe that the authors of the Christian Scripture were inspired by God our Creator and it’s His special revelation to His people. Also I believe it reveals much about our Creator and about us (His creatures) and the intimate relation He wants to have with us.
And
Now, having made that necessary correction, before I can try to respond the rephrased question, I would like to know a few things that might help me to give you a more accurate answer, without writing too much. How much do you know about the Bible? Have you ever read it? What do you know about its origin? What do you know about the history of the current versions we use today?
Dionisio, I don’t see how you’re actually disagreeing with me. Pointing out that The Bible references actual places is a rational argument that includes empirical tests. The same can be said regarding prophecy that supposedly came true, etc. The consensus of Christian theologists over the interpretation of scriptures, the rational arguments about why the Bible is an accurate and complete picture of what God values and demands along with various criticisms of other holy texts which make the same claim represents the use of human reasoning and criticism, which is what I’ve been suggesting all along. The is the same process which you claim can only produce subjective opinions. So, when faced with an actual moral problem, how are you in any better position? You believe the ultimate source of moral knowledge includes a prohibition of homosexuality. Why should anyone have a duty to “your option” of what God supposedly values and prohibits? Adding an inexplicable mind that exists in an inexplicable realm which informs you using inexplicable means doesn’t actually improve your position, in practice. This is what I mean when I say “all you’ve done is pushed the problem up a level without actually solving it.”critical rationalist
February 22, 2017
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critical rationalist @57:
[…] their explanation of how the world works would lead to a different interpretation of who their “neighbor” is or when and what it means to “love” them.
The Christian Scripture leaves no room for misinterpretation of the most fundamental concepts, precepts and principles. The terms “neighbor” and “love” are clearly defined in the Christian Bible for anyone who is seriously willing to learn their meaning. Have you ever heard or seen the term “good Samaritan”? Do you know what it means? Where does it come from? [follow-up to comments posted @110-113, 115, 120-123] The Parable of the Good Samaritan
And behold, a lawyer stood up to put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.” But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” Jesus replied,
“A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who stripped him and beat him and departed, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a priest was going down that road, and when he saw him he passed by on the other side. So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to where he was, and when he saw him, he had compassion. He went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he set him on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him. And the next day he took out two denarii* and gave them to the innkeeper, saying, ‘Take care of him, and whatever more you spend, I will repay you when I come back.’ Which of these three, do you think, proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell among the robbers?”
He said, “The one who showed him mercy.” And Jesus said to him, “You go, and do likewise.” [Luke 10:25-37 (ESV)] (*) A denarius was a day's wage for a laborer
Reformation Study Bible provided by Ligonier Ministries:
lawyer. An expert in the law of God, and so a religious man. Yet he was not genuinely looking for information but for something that would enable him to accuse Jesus. The lawyer showed insight; Jesus summed up the law in much the same way (Matt. 22:37–40). do this. God’s will is the way of life. The parable answers the question “Who is my neighbor,” not the question concerning what one must do to be saved. The Jews had various ideas about the “neighbor,” but they confined it to Israel.
As one can see in the above text, the concept of neighbor is very clear. No room for misinterpretation left. The text also provides an example of what it means to love your neighbor as yourself. However, the Bible contains other important references to true love.Dionisio
February 22, 2017
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critical rationalist @57:
[…] their explanation of how the world works would lead to a different interpretation of who their “neighbor” is or when and what it means to “love” them.
The Christian Scripture leaves no room for misinterpretation of the most fundamental concepts, precepts and principles. The terms “neighbor” and “love” are clearly defined in the Christian Bible for anyone who is seriously willing to learn their meaning. Have you ever heard or seen the term “good Samaritan”? Do you know what it means? Where does it come from? [follow-up to comments posted @110-113, 115, 120-122]
Now when they had testified and spoken the word of the Lord, they returned to Jerusalem, preaching the gospel to many villages of the Samaritans. [Acts 8:25 (ESV)]
Matthew Henry's Commentary:
The gospel brought to Samaria, preached there (Acts 8:4, 5), embraced there (Acts 8:6-8), even by Simon Magus (Acts 8:9-13); the gift of the Holy Ghost conferred upon some of the believing Samaritans by the imposition of the hands of Peter and John (Acts 8:14-17); and the severe rebuke given by Peter to Simon Magus for offering money for a power to bestow that gift, Acts 8:18-25.
Dionisio
February 22, 2017
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critical rationalist @57:
[…] their explanation of how the world works would lead to a different interpretation of who their “neighbor” is or when and what it means to “love” them.
The Christian Scripture leaves no room for misinterpretation of the most fundamental concepts, precepts and principles. The terms “neighbor” and “love” are clearly defined in the Christian Bible for anyone who is seriously willing to learn their meaning. [addendum to comment @99] Have you ever heard or seen the term “good Samaritan”? Do you know what it means? Where does it come from? [addendum to comment @121] More on the contempt Jews and Samaritans showed for one another:
The Jews answered him, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” [John 8:48 (ESV)]
Reformation Study Bible provided by Ligonier Ministries:
a Samaritan. A term of insult, possibly implying that Jesus was born out of wedlock have a demon. When cornered by the truth, Jesus’ enemies turn to blasphemy (Matt. 12:24, 31).
Dionisio
February 22, 2017
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critical rationalist @57:
[…] their explanation of how the world works would lead to a different interpretation of who their “neighbor” is or when and what it means to “love” them.
The Christian Scripture leaves no room for misinterpretation of the most fundamental concepts, precepts and principles. The terms “neighbor” and “love” are clearly defined in the Christian Bible for anyone who is seriously willing to learn their meaning. [addendum to comment @99] Have you ever heard or seen the term “good Samaritan”? Do you know what it means? Where does it come from? [addendum to comment @120] Jesus Cleanses Ten Lepers
On the way to Jerusalem He was passing along between Samaria and Galilee. And as He entered a village, He was met by ten lepers,* who stood at a distance and lifted up their voices, saying, “Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.” When He saw them He said to them, “Go and show yourselves to the priests.” And as they went they were cleansed. Then one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, praising God with a loud voice; and he fell on his face at Jesus' feet, giving Him thanks. Now he was a Samaritan. Then Jesus answered, “Were not ten cleansed? Where are the nine? Was no one found to return and give praise to God except this foreigner?” And He said to him, “Rise and go your way; your faith has made you well.”** [Luke 17:11-19 (ESV)] (*) Leprosy was a term for several skin diseases; see Leviticus 13 (**) Or has saved you
Reformation Study Bible provided by Ligonier Ministries:
lepers. People with leprosy were required by law to keep away from healthy people (Lev. 13:46); these came as close as they dared and called out loudly. they went. Jesus’ command, when nothing had yet happened to the men, was a test of faith. They were healed as they went in obedience to Jesus’ word. Gratitude brought one man straight back, praising God for what had happened. That he was a Samaritan made this all the more interesting, for he would not be expected to show much gratitude to a Jewish healer.
Jesus and the Woman of Samaria
The Samaritan woman said to Him, “How is it that you, a Jew, ask for a drink from me, a woman of Samaria?” (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.) [John 4:9 (ESV)]
Reformation Study Bible provided by Ligonier Ministries:
Jews have no dealings with Samaritans. This phrase could also be translated, “Jews use nothing in common with Samaritans,” referring to the legislation that forbade a Jew to eat or drink with Samaritans, who were more lax in their understanding of ritual cleanness. The surprise was not so much that Jesus would speak with a Samaritan, but that He would drink from a Samaritan vessel.
The Jews vs. the Samaritans:
Many Samaritans from that town believed in Him because of the woman's testimony, “He told me all that I ever did.” So when the Samaritans came to Him, they asked Him to stay with them, and He stayed there two days. [John 4:39-40 (ESV)]
Reformation Study Bible provided by Ligonier Ministries:
The background of this incident is the profound contempt that the Jews and the Samaritans felt for each other (v. 9). Not surprisingly, the Samaritans responded with enmity toward the Jews. When traveling between Galilee and Judea, many Jews would cross the Jordan twice rather than pass through Samaria. Jesus did not follow this practice (Luke 9:52).
Dionisio
February 22, 2017
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critical rationalist @57:
[…] their explanation of how the world works would lead to a different interpretation of who their “neighbor” is or when and what it means to “love” them.
The Christian Scripture leaves no room for misinterpretation of the most fundamental concepts, precepts and principles. The terms “neighbor” and “love” are clearly defined in the Christian Bible for anyone who is seriously willing to learn their meaning. [addendum to comment @99] Have you ever heard or seen the term “good Samaritan”? Do you know what it means? Where does it come from? [addendum to comment @112] Jesus Sends Out the Twelve Apostles
These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, “Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And proclaim as you go, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ [Matthew 10:5-7 (ESV)]
Reformation Study Bible provided by Ligonier Ministries:
Go nowhere. Although Jesus has already responded to Gentile faith (8:10), the focus of this first mission of the disciples, like that of Jesus before His passion and resurrection (15:24), was to the natural heirs of the kingdom. Jesus does not prohibit preaching to Gentiles encountered during the mission to Israel, but He did not send the disciples at this point into Gentile areas.
A Samaritan Village Rejected Jesus
When the days drew near for him to be taken up, he set his face to go to Jerusalem. And he sent messengers ahead of him, who went and entered a village of the Samaritans, to make preparations for him. But the people did not receive him, because his face was set toward Jerusalem. And when his disciples James and John saw it, they said, “Lord, do you want us to tell fire to come down from heaven and consume them?”* But he turned and rebuked them.** And they went on to another village. [Luke 9:51-56 (ESV)] (*) Some manuscripts add: as Elijah did (**) Some manuscripts add: And he said, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of; for the Son of Man came not to destroy people's lives but to save them”
Reformation Study Bible provided by Ligonier Ministries:
[...] Luke gives an account of Jesus’ journey to Jerusalem. There is no parallel to this unit as a whole in the other Gospels, though there are parallels to some of the individual sections. Luke presents the solemn progress to the capital city where Jesus would die for sinners in accordance with the will of God. On the way He gives the disciples teaching that would be important for them when they were left to carry on as Christian leaders without His physical presence. Jesus and His disciples would be enough to strain the resources of a small village if they dropped in unexpectedly. Jesus gave due notice but was met with the traditional hostility of the Samaritans for the Jews. The disciples had zeal for their task but did not understand the mercy of God.
Note the observation about the "traditional hostility of the Samaritans for the Jews". Apparently both groups were mutually hostile to one another. Let's keep this in mind when we read the parable of the good Samaritan.Dionisio
February 22, 2017
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KF, Excellent! That's the bottom line, right at the very core of the subject. Basically that's it. Thanks.Dionisio
February 22, 2017
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Folks, The only thing that can successfully ground morality is a world-root level IS that is also inherently the root of OUGHT. After centuries of debate, there is precisely one serious candidate: the inherently good Creator God, a necessary and maximally great being, worthy of loyalty and the reasonable, responsible service of doing the good in accord with our evident nature. Where, as a serious candidate necessary being such a Supreme Being would either be impossible in the same way a square circle is, or else would be actual, as an inherent part of the framework of all possible worlds. Science as institution, as praxis or as body of findings does not even come close. Also, we should note that our reasoning is inextricably intertwined with responsibility to wards truth and right, so the all too common undermining of moral foundations through ill-advised ideologies is fraught with destructive consequences for our civilisation. Such as, are visible all around. KFkairosfocus
February 22, 2017
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hgp, Excellent point. What would make a person strongly believe that all persons are moral agents without distinctions, regardless of the opinion of the majority of people who might think otherwise in a given society at some point in history?Dionisio
February 22, 2017
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Seversky @ 59:
Did the Germans consult the Czechs, Poles, Belgians, Dutch French or Russian before invading them? No, of course not. Do you think those other countries would have consented to invasion if they’d been asked. No, of course not. Would they have considered invasion a moral act? No, of course not. Would the Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, mentally ill and other nationalities or groups that the Nazis considered to be inferior have consented to being killed in huge numbers? Would they have considered it moral? I’m pretty sure the wouldn’t have. Not that they were ever asked, of course. And that is the point. Yes, some Nazis may have considered what they did to be moral but unless they had got the agreement of all those likely to be affected by their actions then what they did was immoral.
This brings us to the next problem with your "inter-subjective agreement" theory: Who is a "moral agent" worthy of "inter-subjective agreement"? No one asks any mosquitoes sucking blood on their arms for consent before killing them. No one asks bacteria for their consent before exterminating them with antibiotics. Even people like Seversky, I would say. The reason is simple: bacteria and mosquitoes are not "moral agents" that should be asked for their consent. So this question is a moral question in Seversky's theory that must be asked by necessity before any "inter-subjective agreement" can be even attempted: Am I interacting with a moral agent whose views and interests have to be taken into account or not? If Seversky is not interacting with an "moral agent", then "inter-subjective agreement" doesn't need to be attempted. In the Nazi ideology all those people mentioned by Seversky above were not seen as moral agents, they were seen as "Untermenschen" (sub-humans) and/or "Volksschädlinge" (a word associating such people with vermin); so obviously given Nazi ideology, no one needed any consent from those people, since their views didn't count, since they were not seen as "moral agents". When Seversky thinks these same actions are immoral, he just answered the "moral agent" question differently from the Nazis, if his "inter-subjective agreement" theory is correct. And since this question must be asked and answered before any "inter-subjective agreement" can be even attempted, there is no way to come to an agreement with those who are not counted as moral agents.hgp
February 21, 2017
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Christians don't have to please God because that's their obligation, but want to please Him out of love and gratitude for God's grace poured over us. God loved us first and He showed us the real unconditional Agape Love. We have no obligation but strong desire to love Him back.Dionisio
February 21, 2017
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john_a_designer @ 100
When someone claims, as Seversky has claimed on this thread, there is no moral truth (because morality in his view is “subjective”) he is making a universal truth claim about moral truth which is obviously self-refuting. By analogy he is making a claim like, “This sentence is false.”
This depends on what you mean by truth. On the correspondence theory of truth a statement is true to the extent to which it is found to correspond to what it purports to describe. In other words, it is about what is. Moral claims prescribe how human beings should behave towards one another. In other words, they are about what ought to be and, as such, they are not capable of being either true or false since they are not claims about what is.
Morality is useless and meaningless unless it is about interpersonal moral obligation. The golden rule is one such moral principle which meaningless unless there really is interpersonal moral obligation.
How do you arrive at interpersonal moral obligation except by intersubjective agreement?
Seversky’s subjective beliefs and opinions carry no such moral obligation. If he claim they do he is contradicting himself. Of course, I suppose he has a right to believe whatever foolish nonsense he wishes to believe, but there is obligation for me or anyone else to take him seriously.
You don't have to take me seriously at all if you don't want to but if people freely enter into an agreement about what are the best ways to behave towards one another in society then they are under a self-imposed obligation to live up to the terms of that agreement. Obligations need not be imposed from outside. In fact, I would argue that the obligations that people are most likely to live up to are precisely those that they entered into of their own free will.
Secondly, if his “morality” is completely subjective then he is the one who sets the moral standards for himself. His moral standards don’t apply to anyone else. How could they?
I decide what is moral from my point of view just as others decide what is moral from their various different points of view. But what is to prevent us from discovering that we have some views in common and maybe coming to some agreement on others, in other words, a common morality reached through intersubjective agreement?
Finally, to have any type of meaningful discussion about morality, it has to be honest. Honesty requires an objective standard– doesn’t it?
Honesty is the behavioral property of not lying or deceiving, of being truthful as far as possible. You can only measure the honesty of someone to the extent that you can test claims that they make. But in many cases, claims are not testable. If someone tells you they like the same type of music as you, how do you tell if they mean it or they are lying to flatter you? You want an objective standard of honesty, something infallible and certain, where I would say no such thing exists or is possible. In reality we make the best judgements we can based on the limited information available and make a rough evaluation about how much confidence we have in those judgements.
So why does Seversky even bother? Why does he continue argue that something that only he believes must be believed by everyone else? Again that is a self-refuting if not an irrational and absurd position.
I'm not arguing that everybody must believe what I believe, I'm suggesting that we can all get together and, given honesty and good will, we can reach an agreement on various moral issues through rational discussions. It may not be quick or easy but I believe it can be done. What alternative is there? To those who prefer some sort of Divine Command morality - good is whatever God says it is - I would ask how He arrived at those judgements. Did He just toss a celestial coin to decide them or were they reached through a process of reasoning? If decided by the equivalent of a coin toss then what moral value can they possibly have. We could do the same and it would be just as meaningless. If decided by reason then what is to prevent us as (sometimes) rational beings from doing the same. Maybe our power of reason is more limited than that of a god but we still have one so why not use it?Seversky
February 21, 2017
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critical rationalist @57:
[…] their explanation of how the world works would lead to a different interpretation of who their “neighbor” is or when and what it means to “love” them.
The Christian Scripture leaves no room for misinterpretation of the most fundamental concepts, precepts and principles. The terms “neighbor” and “love” are clearly defined in the Christian Bible for anyone who is seriously willing to learn their meaning. [addendum to comment @99] Have you ever heard or seen the term “good Samaritan”? Do you know what it means? Where does it come from? [addendum to comment @111] OT reference to Samaritans:
So one of the priests whom they had carried away from Samaria came and lived in Bethel and taught them how they should fear the Lord. But every nation still made gods of its own and put them in the shrines of the high places that the Samaritans had made, every nation in the cities in which they lived. The men of Babylon made Succoth-benoth, the men of Cuth made Nergal, the men of Hamath made Ashima, [2 Kings 17:28-30 (ESV)]
Reformation Study Bible provided by Ligonier Ministries:
gods of its own. Bringing back an Israelite priest to serve at Bethel did not oblige the immigrants settling in Samaria to follow the local religion. On the contrary, they continued to follow their own religious practices, taking over local sanctuaries and worshiping there. the Samaritans. See 23:19; 1 Kin. 12:31; 13:32. Although the expression “Samaritans” appears only here in the Old Testament, it occurs in extrabiblical documents as early as the eighth century b.c. referring to the residents of the northern kingdom
Dionisio
February 21, 2017
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critical rationalist @57:
[…] their explanation of how the world works would lead to a different interpretation of who their “neighbor” is or when and what it means to “love” them.
The Christian Scripture leaves no room for misinterpretation of the most fundamental concepts, precepts and principles. The terms “neighbor” and “love” are clearly defined in the Christian Bible for anyone who is seriously willing to learn their meaning. [addendum to comment @99] Have you ever heard or seen the term “good Samaritan”? Do you know what it means? Where does it come from? [addendum to comment @111] OT reference to Samaritans:
So one of the priests whom they had carried away from Samaria came and lived in Bethel and taught them how they should fear the Lord. But every nation still made gods of its own and put them in the shrines of the high places that the Samaritans had made, every nation in the cities in which they lived. The men of Babylon made Succoth-benoth, the men of Cuth made Nergal, the men of Hamath made Ashima, [2 Kings 17:28-30 (ESV)]
Reformation Study Bible provided by Ligonier Ministries:
gods of its own. Bringing back an Israelite priest to serve at Bethel did not oblige the immigrants settling in Samaria to follow the local religion. On the contrary, they continued to follow their own religious practices, taking over local sanctuaries and worshiping there. the Samaritans. See 23:19; 1 Kin. 12:31; 13:32. Although the expression “Samaritans” appears only here in the Old Testament, it occurs in extrabiblical documents as early as the eighth century b.c. referring to the residents of the northern kingdom
Dionisio
February 21, 2017
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critical rationalist @57:
[…] their explanation of how the world works would lead to a different interpretation of who their “neighbor” is or when and what it means to “love” them.
The Christian Scripture leaves no room for misinterpretation of the most fundamental concepts, precepts and principles. The terms “neighbor” and “love” are clearly defined in the Christian Bible for anyone who is seriously willing to learn their meaning. [addendum to comment @99] Have you ever heard or seen the term "good Samaritan"? Do you know what it means? Where does it come from?Dionisio
February 21, 2017
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critical rationalist @105:
How have you infallibly identified The Bible as a text that accurately and completely depicts what God values and demands?
That's a very good question. Thank you for asking it. First, let me clarify what seems like an invalid assumption you made in your question: I'm very far from being able to "infallibly identify" anything by myself. I make mistakes like everybody else, perhaps sometimes even more. However, I believe that the authors of the Christian Scripture were inspired by God our Creator and it's His special revelation to His people. Also I believe it reveals much about our Creator and about us (His creatures) and the intimate relation He wants to have with us. Would you mind if we rephrase your question?
Why do I believe that the Bible reveals much about God (our Creator) and about His creation -including us (God's creatures)- and about the intimate relation He wants to have with us?
Now, having made that necessary correction, before I can try to respond the rephrased question, I would like to know a few things that might help me to give you a more accurate answer, without writing too much. How much do you know about the Bible? Have you ever read it? What do you know about its origin? What do you know about the history of the current versions we use today?Dionisio
February 21, 2017
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Surely, you have some reason to think they are mere subjective opinions, right?
Surely you're familiar with the definitions of "subjective" and "opinion". Your argument is akin to that of the regressive progressive who asked Ben Shapiro why the Boy Scouts should admit only boys.
So I should ignore all your references to the Bible or Christianity since it’s based on core principles of theism?
Core principles of theism? Fascinating. But please, do carry on and good luck with your chase.
That doesn’t describe your belief?
Since you continue to demonstrate your selective blindness, here's the relevant part from two days ago:
And theism is relevant because? I don’t spend my day thinking about theism nor do I claim I’m a theist. I say I’m a Christian and while Christianity may be theistic, theism isn’t Christian. I’d sooner see someone say they’re a deist than a theist if their position is merely the affirmation of the idea that gods exist and you’d be hard-pressed to find a Christian tell you that all god-present religions are somehow true.
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It’s unclear how the mere existence of an authoritative source of moral values and duties, (should one exist) is actually helpful unless you can actually infallibly identify that source as being accurate and complete and infallibly interpret how it should be applied when actually faced with moral problems. What other means...
It's unclear what part of the Bible, specifically the NT, gave you the idea that we're supposed to be infallible or that our God-given ability to critique something automagically renders the dependency on God for moral guidance on the same level as those who choose to deny His existence and yet claim subjective opinions can poof morality into existence. Try reading Dionisio's posts for a start.
IOW, it seems that you’re far more versed in mental gymnastics than you realize
Riiiiight. I'm the guy trotting out the strawman idea that you need to be God to know God's moral codes are moral and that Christians are in some kind of Grand Theism Coalition with all the god-present religions. Cool story bro.
First, you haven’t seen comments here dismissed as merely being “biased agains religion” by moderators at UD?
And you haven't realized that "religion" is a buzzword used by Atheists in an attempt to discredit Christianity by conflating it with nonsense? I have.
Second, my argument is epistemological in nature, not just theological or targeted at Christianity.
And like I said, good luck with your chase.
Again, if I’ve got it wrong, then explain to me how you know which source of moral values and duties is actually accurate and complete.
I'm still waiting for you guys to present a valid case for morality via subjective opinions. Try not to get too ahead of yourself.
That’s precisely my point!
If by "point" you mean you can't comprehend my post, sure.
And there are no other holy texts which also claim they are the word of God and are complete? What if none of them are accurate representations of what God values and demands?
What if you actually presented a case for morality via subjective opinions?
I’m just as unclear how you got that out of what a wrote as the first time.
Selective blindness again. Try reading:
And with that it’s pretty clear you’re not comprehending my post. I was referring to the end of our current existence not some imaginary supernova or asteroids destroying our planet.
Vy
February 21, 2017
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@Vy I wrote:
I’m suggesting you’re mistaken about two things. First, is the idea that they could only be mere subjective opinions unless they are based on some ultimate foundation that we could depend on to not lead us astray.
Vy wrote:
They are mere subjective opinions because that is what they are. Full stop.
They are because they are? That’s a tautology….
In rhetoric, a tautology (from Greek ??????, "the same" and ?????, "word/idea") is a logical argument constructed in such a way, generally by repeating the same concept or assertion using different phrasing or terminology, that the proposition as stated is logically irrefutable, while obscuring the lack of evidence or valid reasoning supporting the stated conclusion.
Surely, you have some reason to think they are mere subjective opinions, right?
And since I couldn’t care less about theism, good luck with your chase.
So I should ignore all your references to the Bible or Christianity since it’s based on core principles of theism?
theism belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures. Compare with deism.
That doesn’t describe your belief?
What are you even talking about?
It’s unclear how the mere existence of an authoritative source of moral values and duties, (should one exist) is actually helpful unless you can actually infallibly identify that source as being accurate and complete and infallibly interpret how it should be applied when actually faced with moral problems. What other means do you have at your disposal to choose between different claims of divine moral truth other than human reasoning and criticism? Isn’t this the very same means that is supposedly deficient and makes moral claims mere opinions? All you’ve done is push the problem of how you know what is moral into an inexplicable mind that exists in an inexplicable ream and operates by inexplicable means, despite the fact that doesn’t actually solve the problem, in practice. Specifically, what’s the difference between having an opinion that some source is the one accurate and complete source of divine of moral values and duties, and having an option that some value or duty is moral? Should you actually explain how you know any such source is accurate and complete, will you not make rational arguments to support your conclusion and present criticism of others that make the same claim? Will it not be based on some assumptions, such as what a perfectly good being would value and demand, or that you know because God wanted you to know via some inexplicable means? IOW, it seems that you’re far more versed in mental gymnastics than you realize. But, if I’ve got it wrong, by all means, please give an alternate explanation
And until you offer an explanation for what explanation you’re referring to, this is more mental gymnastics.
So, you don’t believe that Yahweh is the explanation for moral human behavior? If I’ve got it wrong, then what is your explanation?
You should have read past the first sentence.
First, you haven’t seen comments here dismissed as merely being “biased agains religion” by moderators at UD? I have. Second, my argument is epistemological in nature, not just theological or targeted at Christianity. Any valid criticism of that philosophical view would also be a valid criticism of Christianity if they are baed on the same philosophical theory of knowledge. Namely, that knowledge in specific spheres comes from an authoritative source that one can always turn to as a last resort that will not lead us astray (into error.) For example empiricism shares the same philosophical view as because it says experiences is the last resort that cannot lead us astray. All knowledge comes to us from the senses. IOW, empiricism merely exchanges one supposedly infallible authoritative source wth another.
You’re making an assertion, an assertion that is based on a strawmanned idea of what dependence on God for moral guidance is supposed to be.
Again, if I’ve got it wrong, then explain to me how you know which source of moral values and duties is actually accurate and complete. What am I missing? How is that not effectively “your opinion” or just “an agreement between people”?
Seeing as I have no idea what X, Y, and Z are supposed to be coupled with the fact that I’ve never mentioned having a duty towards any X, Y and Z, I don’t know what you’re saying.
That’s precisely my point! It’s unclear how you know what set of moral values and duties are accurate and complete. So how can you employ them when faced with moral problems? You believe they are or lots of people agree is the same objection being presented.
It’s an opinion that the Bible exists and words mean what they do? Got it.
And there are no other holy texts which also claim they are the word of God and are complete? What if none of them are accurate representations of what God values and demands?
So there’s no reason to assume we’ll exist 10,000 years from now. Got it.
I’m just as unclear how you got that out of what a wrote as the first time. It’s possible we won’t survive because we might not create the necessary knowledge in time to solve problems that threaten to completely wipe out humanity, and “there’s no reason” are not equivalent.critical rationalist
February 21, 2017
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Seversky @ 20 (and 59)
In fact, what else is there that could provide a “foundation” – whatever is meant by that – for morality, other than what people agree amongst themselves is best for them?
When I say: "I like raspberry ice cream better than vanilla", I'm not expecting everyone to have the same point of view and I don't expect them to like raspberry ice cream just because I said so. When I'm saying: "Thou shalt not murder", then I'm expecting, that everyone agrees to my point of view. There is something needed, that let's me expect you and everyone to follow my expectation in this case. This "something" makes morality different from mere personal preferences. You can call that "something" a foundation. "Inter-subjective agreement" (as you call it in 59) is not a good foundation for this expectation, because it leaves so many problems open, that it can't work in reality. One obvious problem was mentioned in post 97. Another problem: How should inter-subjective agreement be reached? This is obviously also a moral question. The rules that govern this agreement process therefore must be moral rules. Who establishes those rules? And how? Either there is a priori a moral framework in place that establishes those rules or those rules can only be arbitrary. If there is an a priori moral framework in place to establish rules for moral agreement then obviously there exists another source for moral codes, so this "inter-subjective agreement" stuff is not the foundation of morality. But when there is no a priori framework for establishing those rules then it gets even worse: Then by necessity all rules that we follow to come to an "inter-subjective agreement" are necessarily amoral. There is then no way of making a moral distinction between me holding a gun to your head and making you agreeing with my rules (And no, I won't do this) to any other (more mild mannered) way of coming to an agreement. People in countries like North Korea and Eritrea supposedly get their rules by a similar process as described, so this is not only theory. Now one might want to skip this question and say: OK most people in my culture share the same expectations as to how such an agreement process should look like, so we take those rules and run with them. This obviously doesn't make those rules in any way "moral". The way in which people in Saudi Arabia come to the Sharia laws might be described this way. And those laws are held to be immoral by most Western people (and probably vice versa). And since those rules, which govern the establishing of "inter-subjective agreement" are amoral, there can't be any guarantee that the moral codes developed this way are in any way moral. Which brings us to the next problem: Even if we establish some moral rules by your process of "Inter-subjective agreement", what about those people that don't agree to (some of) those rules? Can I skip those rules established by my society, that I personally find unconvincing? If I (hypothetically!) personally don't like that "thou shalt not murder" rule, can I go about killing people, because I never assented to this rule? Obviously not! Is the society allowed to force me to obeying this rule? Obviously yes! But what gives society this right? Obviously it is not "inter-subjective agreement",because in this example I never consented to this rule. What about me (hypothetically) helding the sincere belief, that some moral codes in my society are wrong? Am I free to disobey those codes because I didn't give my consent? Who makes the decision? Me or society? What if society has a different moral point of view as to who makes that decision? Whose point of view is valid? That point of view with a gun in its hand? So to sum up: "inter-subjective agreement" as a foundation for morality doesn't work.hgp
February 21, 2017
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I’m suggesting you’re mistaken about two things. First, is the idea that they could only be mere subjective opinions unless they are based on some ultimate foundation that we could depend on to not lead us astray.
They are mere subjective opinions because that is what they are. Full stop. My mental gymnastic capabilities are nowhere near yours so you're gonna have to stop doing it if you're interested in getting any point across.
That is a particular philosophical view which is not limited to theism.
And since I couldn't care less about theism, good luck with your chase.
The second is the idea that the particular moral values you adopt are not actually the result of the very thing you claim is hopelessly deficient.
What are you even talking about?
Unless you have some means of infallibly identifying and interpreting any such source of divine moral values and demands, should one even exist. you must use human reasoning and criticism to select between them. That always comes first, before experience.
You should read John 3:16 or Dionisio's posts before making claims about what is what wrt depending on God for moral guidance.
IOW, should we try to take your explanation seriously as an explanation for human behavior, it ends up that you’re actually doing what we’re doing.
And until you offer an explanation for what explanation you're referring to, this is more mental gymnastics.
And, while there is no logical necessity that causes us to value truth or human flourishing, what we’re doing isn’t necessarily mere opinions.
Again, what are you even talking about? This is second time you're repeating that piece of text almost verbatim.
Theism is a specific case of a specific philosophical view on knowledge. As such, my criticism is not limited to theism, but that philosophical view as a whole. So, I’m not merely “biased against religion” and all criticisms of that view are criticisms of theism as well.
You should have read past the first sentence.
Where did the other soul come from? Where did the other soul go? Since there isn’t any hard to vary chain of independently formed explanations that explain how God works, how he imparts souls, how they interact with matter, if they take up space, etc. one can easily make ad-hoc changes, such as, there were really two souls in one egg, or that there really was only one soul to begin with, or that it merely transferred to some other newly conceived egg, etc. It’s a bad explanation because it’s easily varied to deflect criticism, empirical or otherwise.
Er, two souls in one body? What??? As for not understanding how God works, ya think?
Your’e saying we have a God sized hole in our conception of morality. Therefore, all we have are opinions.
I'm saying you're gonna need more than a whole lot of baseless assertions to establish your subjective opinions as any sort of basis for morality for anyone other than you. If you take God out of the picture, all your really do have is opinions - all 7+ billion of them.
I’m pointing out that unless you can infallible identify and interpret any such set of moral values and demands, you have effectively the same hole as we do, in practice, when actually facing moral problems.
You're making an assertion, an assertion that is based on a strawmanned idea of what dependence on God for moral guidance is supposed to be.
Why should anyone have a duty to X, Y and Z
Seeing as I have no idea what X, Y, and Z are supposed to be coupled with the fact that I've never mentioned having a duty towards any X, Y and Z, I don't know what you're saying.
all you have are (to use your terminology) “subjective opinions or the congregation thereof” that God values and demands X, Y and Z?
Interesting stuff. It's an opinion that the Bible exists and words mean what they do? Got it.
How are you actually in any better position than we supposedly are?
You're not "we", not even wrt Atheists. Your mind-boggling assertions are in a league of their own.
But, again, I’m not suggesting that all we have. That’s your assumption, not mine.
If reading my post made you post that then *facepalm*
I didn’t.
So there's no reason to assume we'll exist 10,000 years from now. Got it.
It’s common for people put, “etc” in place of an exhaustive list. And if we give up and fail to create the necessary knowledge to detect and stop an asteroid, we’ll be destroyed. The same can be said for detecting and deflection or preventing a near by supernova, etc. There is no guarantee we will survive. We must we create the necessary knowledge in time to meet the threats we will face.
And with that it's pretty clear you're not comprehending my post. I was referring to the end of our current existence not some imaginary supernova or asteroids destroying our planet.
If we cannot predict the impact that genuinely new knowledge will have in the future, how can I give you examples we haven’t even conceived of yet and the moral problems they will bring?
So your assertions remain baseless. Got it.
If we can’t tell what impact that the creation of knowledge will have in the future, how can we know what moral problems we will be faced with?
"If [you] can’t tell what impact that the creation of knowledge will have in the future [or even offer a believable example to substantiate your assertion], how can [you] know [and expect me to take you seriously when you claim "no holy text will have guidance for" such imaginary] moral problems we will [supposedly] be faced with?"Vy
February 20, 2017
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@Dionisio For the purpose of discussion, let’s take this one step at a time and ignore the problem of interpretation for the moment. How have you infallibly identified The Bible as a text that accurately and completely depicts what God values and demands? How do you know this? In other words, I’m looking for an explanation for this knowledge you claim to have. I’m asking because, nothing in your experience of reading it tells you it is actually accurate and complete. This is because that conclusion is not “out there” for you to experience. IOW, your conclusion is based on human reasoning and criticism, because it always comes before experience. So, using the terminology presented here, what duty should anyone have value and perform X, Y and Z if it is merely your option that God values and demands X, Y and Z? How are you in any better position, in practice? To rephrase, what good is an authoritative source of moral values and duties if you do not have infallible access to that source when actually faced with moral problems?critical rationalist
February 20, 2017
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@Vy
Perhaps I do [have a very different perspective] but seeing as I’m focused on the idea that morality-via-subjective-opinions is valid, that isn’t particularly the focus here.
I’m suggesting you’re mistaken about two things. First, is the idea that they could only be mere subjective opinions unless they are based on some ultimate foundation that we could depend on to not lead us astray. That is a particular philosophical view which is not limited to theism. The second is the idea that the particular moral values you adopt are not actually the result of the very thing you claim is hopelessly deficient. Unless you have some means of infallibly identifying and interpreting any such source of divine moral values and demands, should one even exist. you must use human reasoning and criticism to select between them. That always comes first, before experience. IOW, should we try to take your explanation seriously as an explanation for human behavior, it ends up that you’re actually doing what we’re doing. And, while there is no logical necessity that causes us to value truth or human flourishing, what we’re doing isn’t necessarily mere opinions.
And theism is relevant because?
Theism is a specific case of a specific philosophical view on knowledge. As such, my criticism is not limited to theism, but that philosophical view as a whole. So, I’m not merely “biased against religion” and all criticisms of that view are criticisms of theism as well.
I don’t take the people who use the word “empirical” in these sort of discussions very seriously.
I don’t think you understand the role i’m suggesting empirical test play in this sort of discussion. The difference between philosophy and science is the sort of criticism applied. In science, criticism includes empirical tests. But much of the observations those tests are based on are themselves theory laden and not always subject to empirical testing. So, if you think I’m an empiricist, you would be mistaken. The idea that human beings obtain souls at conception is one such idea in which empirical criticism comes into play. Namely, the empirical observations that a single fertilized egg can split after conception into two or that two can merge into one. Where did the other soul come from? Where did the other soul go? Since there isn’t any hard to vary chain of independently formed explanations that explain how God works, how he imparts souls, how they interact with matter, if they take up space, etc. one can easily make ad-hoc changes, such as, there were really two souls in one egg, or that there really was only one soul to begin with, or that it merely transferred to some other newly conceived egg, etc. It’s a bad explanation because it’s easily varied to deflect criticism, empirical or otherwise.
On the contrary, I’m observing you and co try to explain why subjective opinions or the congregation thereof can offer anything that can be described as morality, especially for anyone other than yourselves.
Your’e saying we have a God sized hole in our conception of morality. Therefore, all we have are opinions. I’m pointing out that unless you can infallible identify and interpret any such set of moral values and demands, you have effectively the same hole as we do, in practice, when actually facing moral problems. Why should anyone have a duty to X, Y and Z if all you have are (to use your terminology) “subjective opinions or the congregation thereof” that God values and demands X, Y and Z? How are you actually in any better position than we supposedly are? But, again, I’m not suggesting that all we have. That’s your assumption, not mine.
Who said that assuming we don’t destroy ourselves, we’ll exist 10,000 years from now?
I didn’t. It’s common for people put, “etc” in place of an exhaustive list. And if we give up and fail to create the necessary knowledge to detect and stop an asteroid, we’ll be destroyed. The same can be said for detecting and deflection or preventing a near by supernova, etc. There is no guarantee we will survive. We must we create the necessary knowledge in time to meet the threats we will face.
On what basis do you claim no “holy text” will have guidance for such supposed futures? Care to explain what moral problems in an imaginary future will miraculously make Matt 22:37-40 go poof?
If we cannot predict the impact that genuinely new knowledge will have in the future, how can I give you examples we haven’t even conceived of yet and the moral problems they will bring? Who is your neighbor? What does it mean to love them? What is life, etc.? About the only thing that survives the planning horizon is that we cannot predict the impact that genuinely new knowledge will have. For example, when the first two computers were networked, no one had any idea that it would play a key role in toppling dictatorships. If we can’t tell what impact that the creation of knowledge will have in the future, how can we know what moral problems we will be faced with?critical rationalist
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