Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Can Science Ground Morality?

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Of course not, as we have often noted in these pages.

James Davison Hunter’s and Paul Nedelisky’s  Where the New Science of Morality Goes Wrong is a great primer on the subject.  Their take down of Sam Harris is especially good:

The new moral scientists sometimes provide certain examples that they think illustrate that science has demonstrated (or can demonstrate) that certain moral claims are true or false. A favorite is the health or medical analogy. Neuroscientist and author Sam Harris, for example, employs the health analogy to argue that science can demonstrate moral value. A bit more circumspect than some who use the analogy, he recognizes that he’s assuming that certain observable properties are tied to certain moral values. Harris puts it this way:

Science cannot tell us why, scientifically, we should value health. But once we admit that health is the proper concern of medicine, we can then study and promote it through science…. I think our concern for well-being is even less in need for justification than our concern for health is.… And once we begin thinking seriously about human well-being, we will find that science can resolve specific questions about morality and human values.12

Harris makes two assumptions—first, that well-being is a moral good, and, second, that we know what the observable properties of well-being are. Yet he doesn’t see these assumptions as problematic for the scientific status of his argument. After all, he reasons, we make similar assumptions in medicine, but we can all recognize that it is still a science. But he still doesn’t recognize that this thinking is fatal to his claim that science can determine moral values. To make the problem for Harris more vivid, compare his argument above with arguments that share the same logic and structure:

  • Science cannot tell us why, scientifically, we should value the enslavement of Africans. But once we admit that slavery is the proper concern of social science, we can then study and promote it through science. I think our concern for embracing slavery is even less in need for justification than our concern for health is. And once we begin thinking seriously about slavery, we will find that science can resolve specific questions about morality and human values.

  • Science cannot tell us why, scientifically, we should value the purging of Jews, gypsies, and the mentally disabled from society. But once we admit that their eradication is the proper concern of social science, we can then study and promote it through science.

  • Science cannot tell us why, scientifically, we should value a prohibition on gay marriage. But once we admit that such a prohibition is the proper concern of social science, we can then study and promote it through science.

 

Comments
timothya @38: Atheism is based on the belief that there’s no God. It’s a belief system. Some folks believe that they don’t believe in anything. But that’s just their belief. :)Dionisio
February 18, 2017
February
02
Feb
18
18
2017
04:33 AM
4
04
33
AM
PDT
rvb8: You may want to consider reading the comments posted @39, @40 & @41. Thank you.Dionisio
February 18, 2017
February
02
Feb
18
18
2017
03:48 AM
3
03
48
AM
PDT
rvb8 @22: “…that it is more useful to be good than bad, so what?” @23 & @31: What does it mean to be good? What does it mean to be bad?Dionisio
February 18, 2017
February
02
Feb
18
18
2017
03:39 AM
3
03
39
AM
PDT
rvb8 @22: “Apparently your relationship with atheists was short and poor” @35: What information is that statement based on?Dionisio
February 18, 2017
February
02
Feb
18
18
2017
03:37 AM
3
03
37
AM
PDT
rvb8 @29: “I know that you were brought up never to question God…” @33: What information is such a knowledge based on?Dionisio
February 18, 2017
February
02
Feb
18
18
2017
03:35 AM
3
03
35
AM
PDT
Mung: "Atheism is the position that no god or Gods exist." When will you ever get it right? The "atheist position" is that there is no evidence that any god exists.timothya
February 18, 2017
February
02
Feb
18
18
2017
02:51 AM
2
02
51
AM
PDT
Dio, you do second guess the Almighty? Also, you have had long and fruitful relations with atheists? Vy, thank you:) However, I really would like to know what Dawkins allegedly said.rvb8
February 18, 2017
February
02
Feb
18
18
2017
01:02 AM
1
01
02
AM
PDT
Smooth backpedaling there rv @32.Vy
February 17, 2017
February
02
Feb
17
17
2017
11:42 PM
11
11
42
PM
PDT
@22: . "Apparently your relationship with atheists was short and poor" What information is that statement based on?Dionisio
February 17, 2017
February
02
Feb
17
17
2017
11:38 PM
11
11
38
PM
PDT
@32: "can’t connect to your link. " @30: http://www.lifenews.com/2014/08/27/why-is-richard-dawkins-in-favor-of-abortion-when-a-baby-has-down-syndrome/Dionisio
February 17, 2017
February
02
Feb
17
17
2017
11:32 PM
11
11
32
PM
PDT
@29: "I know that you were brought up never to question God..." What information is such a knowledge based on?Dionisio
February 17, 2017
February
02
Feb
17
17
2017
11:20 PM
11
11
20
PM
PDT
Sorry Vy, can't connect to your link. However if Dawkins stood up for the rights of women to choose when and if they have children, (and I know he would), then I agree. Could you actually write what Dawkins said in his quote that you link to. I'm sure it is out of context, missing follow up and back up information, and just another general mish mash, Gish Gallup, UNevent! You know? Like your lot generally treats all facts, as maliaable things to be bent this way and that, as the times require; a kind of Trumpism, if you will; could mean this, could mean that, who the hell knows?rvb8
February 17, 2017
February
02
Feb
17
17
2017
11:17 PM
11
11
17
PM
PDT
@22: “…that it is more useful to be good than bad, so what?” @23: What does it mean to be good? What does it mean to be bad?Dionisio
February 17, 2017
February
02
Feb
17
17
2017
11:13 PM
11
11
13
PM
PDT
Don’t put words into Dawkin’s mouth. You do not know if he would have these babies aborted do you?
On the contrary, we do know. He said it.
In that case, I can only asume your assertion is a fabrication, a lie: I believe you religious types, would call that a ‘lie’, an ‘immoral’ act.
Apparently "lie" doesn't exist in your conjured up morality.Vy
February 17, 2017
February
02
Feb
17
17
2017
10:49 PM
10
10
49
PM
PDT
Dio, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate'" I know that you were brought up never to question God, but I have a question for Him, perhaps you can answer? Why would you want to destroy 'wisdom', and frustrate 'intelligence'? I know why these things are done here, it is to circumvent the truth. But why would an all knowing, and loving God, wish to blind the people to wisdom, and intelligence? And more, why would you post this rediculous qoute as in some way being complimentary to your God? Weird!rvb8
February 17, 2017
February
02
Feb
17
17
2017
09:48 PM
9
09
48
PM
PDT
mike1962, aah, a slander and an insult all in one. I wonder how long I could post here, if I were to insult the thread operators, the way I, and some other atheists are insulted here? When you say, 'kinda', do you mean, 'kind of'? I'm not trying to be a pedant, but if you are accusing me of drunken prose then you have used a rather off hand style to do it; 'kinda', sounds like the drunk, 'pot calling the kettle black', as it were; or was? Any way, the point of my post was to point out that atheists ground their morality on what is best for them. It is a happy coincidence that, what is best for them, is also best for you. Quite simple really, no God, Bible, nonsensical Ten Nonsenses, or moral crusaders. Kinda easy to grasp really, no need for centuries of theistic diversion about how many angels can fit on the head of a pin: one of the moral problems that so obsessed Augastine.rvb8
February 17, 2017
February
02
Feb
17
17
2017
09:34 PM
9
09
34
PM
PDT
mike1962 @25: I think the politely dissenting interlocutors are trying to present their beliefs the best they can. :)Dionisio
February 17, 2017
February
02
Feb
17
17
2017
09:03 PM
9
09
03
PM
PDT
Christ Crucified Is God’s Power and Wisdom For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.” Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.Dionisio
February 17, 2017
February
02
Feb
17
17
2017
08:54 PM
8
08
54
PM
PDT
rvb8, Sounds like you're kinda drunk when you write the stuff you write. Yes or no? Be honestmike1962
February 17, 2017
February
02
Feb
17
17
2017
08:54 PM
8
08
54
PM
PDT
Mung, Atheism is based on the belief that there's no God. It's a belief system. Some folks believe that they don't believe in anything. But that's just their belief. :)Dionisio
February 17, 2017
February
02
Feb
17
17
2017
08:49 PM
8
08
49
PM
PDT
"...that it is more useful to be good than bad, so what?" What does it mean to be good? What does it mean to be bad?Dionisio
February 17, 2017
February
02
Feb
17
17
2017
08:46 PM
8
08
46
PM
PDT
Dionisio, "integrity and honesty test.‘?? Apparently your relationship with atheists was short and poor. You constantly create the situation of, 'what would you do if nobody was watching?' My question, as an atheist; "Why does, who is watching, matter?" As a humanist, materialist, atheist, my morality is grounded in what I expect others to do to me! It is of no 'moral' benefit to me to constantly steal from, or lie to others, because then they will constantly steal from, and lie to me. You! on the other hand, base your 'morality', on WHO is watching; God or whatever flavour of spiritual twaddle you are peddling. Marfin, Don't put words into Dawkin's mouth. You do not know if he would have these babies aborted do you? In that case, I can only asume your assertion is a fabrication, a lie: I believe you religious types, would call that a 'lie', an 'immoral' act. As an ahteist it is in my own intersest to avoid lying, even though I fall short of my own atheistic morality at times: You are woeful! If Morality is the product of selection (it is), and if it comes about by humans seeing that it is more useful to be good than bad, so what? It is still being good, isn't it? It still makes your life better than worse, doesn't it? And it has the added benefit of removing that survile, crawling, abasement to that which isn't there!rvb8
February 17, 2017
February
02
Feb
17
17
2017
08:36 PM
8
08
36
PM
PDT
Atheism is the position that no god or Gods exist.Mung
February 17, 2017
February
02
Feb
17
17
2017
08:20 PM
8
08
20
PM
PDT
john_a_designer @ 16
No naturalistic theory of evolution is sufficient to provide a basis or foundation for interpersonal moral obligations or universal human rights. The so called moral atheists who show up here are only moral because they are co-opting a tradition of moral values and human rights which is historically and culturally based Jewish-Christian thinking and belief. Atheistic naturalism/materialism has contributed virtually nothing to the west’s legacy of moral values and human rights.
Atheism is a lack of belief in a god or gods. Naturalism/materialism are beliefs about he nature of reality. Why should they have anything to do with morality and human rights? In fact, what else is there that could provide a "foundation" - whatever is meant by that - for morality, other than what people agree amongst themselves is best for them?Seversky
February 17, 2017
February
02
Feb
17
17
2017
08:11 PM
8
08
11
PM
PDT
JAD @16 Didn't Nietzsche say as much and also claim that our Christian-based morality would fall by the wayside because God is dead? I never read his writing, but only commentary on his works.bb
February 17, 2017
February
02
Feb
17
17
2017
01:27 PM
1
01
27
PM
PDT
Science & morality? (follow-up to comments @7, 10, 13, 17) https://uncommondescent.com/?s=peer+reviewDionisio
February 17, 2017
February
02
Feb
17
17
2017
10:33 AM
10
10
33
AM
PDT
Science & morality? (follow-up to comments @7, 10, 13) Check this out: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/875802 Is there anything wrong with what that doctor did? Why?Dionisio
February 17, 2017
February
02
Feb
17
17
2017
10:25 AM
10
10
25
AM
PDT
Darwin who was a committed materialist by the time he wrote, Descent of Man, thought at least he could use his theory of natural selection to explain the origins of morality. Nevertheless, he was forced to concede that this did indeed lead to moral relativism. He writes: “If… men were reared under precisely the same conditions as hive-bees, there can hardly be a doubt that our unmarried females would, like the worker-bees, think it a sacred duty to kill their brothers, and mothers would strive to kill their fertile daughters; and no one would think of interfering.” No naturalistic theory of evolution is sufficient to provide a basis or foundation for interpersonal moral obligations or universal human rights. The so called moral atheists who show up here are only moral because they are co-opting a tradition of moral values and human rights which is historically and culturally based Jewish-Christian thinking and belief. Atheistic naturalism/materialism has contributed virtually nothing to the west’s legacy of moral values and human rights.john_a_designer
February 17, 2017
February
02
Feb
17
17
2017
08:14 AM
8
08
14
AM
PDT
These books are explicitly scientific and explicitly Darwinian.
The 1st commandment is Darwinian? Andrewasauber
February 17, 2017
February
02
Feb
17
17
2017
07:40 AM
7
07
40
AM
PDT
Civilizations figured out which behaviors lead to survival, and which behaviors lead to death.
And they use both. Andrewasauber
February 17, 2017
February
02
Feb
17
17
2017
07:02 AM
7
07
02
AM
PDT
1 5 6 7 8

Leave a Reply