Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Can Science Ground Morality?

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Of course not, as we have often noted in these pages.

James Davison Hunter’s and Paul Nedelisky’s  Where the New Science of Morality Goes Wrong is a great primer on the subject.  Their take down of Sam Harris is especially good:

The new moral scientists sometimes provide certain examples that they think illustrate that science has demonstrated (or can demonstrate) that certain moral claims are true or false. A favorite is the health or medical analogy. Neuroscientist and author Sam Harris, for example, employs the health analogy to argue that science can demonstrate moral value. A bit more circumspect than some who use the analogy, he recognizes that he’s assuming that certain observable properties are tied to certain moral values. Harris puts it this way:

Science cannot tell us why, scientifically, we should value health. But once we admit that health is the proper concern of medicine, we can then study and promote it through science…. I think our concern for well-being is even less in need for justification than our concern for health is.… And once we begin thinking seriously about human well-being, we will find that science can resolve specific questions about morality and human values.12

Harris makes two assumptions—first, that well-being is a moral good, and, second, that we know what the observable properties of well-being are. Yet he doesn’t see these assumptions as problematic for the scientific status of his argument. After all, he reasons, we make similar assumptions in medicine, but we can all recognize that it is still a science. But he still doesn’t recognize that this thinking is fatal to his claim that science can determine moral values. To make the problem for Harris more vivid, compare his argument above with arguments that share the same logic and structure:

  • Science cannot tell us why, scientifically, we should value the enslavement of Africans. But once we admit that slavery is the proper concern of social science, we can then study and promote it through science. I think our concern for embracing slavery is even less in need for justification than our concern for health is. And once we begin thinking seriously about slavery, we will find that science can resolve specific questions about morality and human values.

  • Science cannot tell us why, scientifically, we should value the purging of Jews, gypsies, and the mentally disabled from society. But once we admit that their eradication is the proper concern of social science, we can then study and promote it through science.

  • Science cannot tell us why, scientifically, we should value a prohibition on gay marriage. But once we admit that such a prohibition is the proper concern of social science, we can then study and promote it through science.

 

Comments
:)Dionisio
February 19, 2017
February
02
Feb
19
19
2017
07:19 AM
7
07
19
AM
PDT
Dionisio @ 60
Seversky @59
[…] moral codes should be the product of inter-subjective agreement
What is your suggestion on how to do that?
How does any democratic society - one where everyone's opinion is heard - decide such matters? I know there are a lot of people who prefer to be told what to do rather than have to think it through themselves but why should one person's views - whether a human dictator or a god - count over all others?Seversky
February 19, 2017
February
02
Feb
19
19
2017
07:13 AM
7
07
13
AM
PDT
thank you:) However, I really would like to know what Dawkins allegedly said.
What he said, not "allegedly said", actually said is right there in the link you're seemingly incapable of clicking on.
When will you ever get it right? The “atheist position” is that there is no evidence that any god exists.
The Atheist position is literally that God(s) do not exist. Whether that is due to evidence or negative emotions (as it is in > 40% of cases) is utterly irrelevant.Vy
February 19, 2017
February
02
Feb
19
19
2017
04:48 AM
4
04
48
AM
PDT
moral codes should be the product of inter-subjective agreement
And until you give a reason why subjective morals "should" be anything for anyone other than you, that assertion is no more valid than: "moral codes should be the product of inter-subjective agreement [between family members]" Or "moral codes should be the product of [your mind]"Vy
February 19, 2017
February
02
Feb
19
19
2017
04:40 AM
4
04
40
AM
PDT
Seversky, Please note the questions for you posted @60-65.Dionisio
February 19, 2017
February
02
Feb
19
19
2017
12:33 AM
12
12
33
AM
PDT
rvb8, Please note the questions for you posted @39-42.Dionisio
February 19, 2017
February
02
Feb
19
19
2017
12:31 AM
12
12
31
AM
PDT
critical rationalist @57: See my comment @58.Dionisio
February 19, 2017
February
02
Feb
19
19
2017
12:01 AM
12
12
01
AM
PDT
I believe we humans cannot legislate morality. I believe the moral code must come from a higher authority who is perfectly just and good.Dionisio
February 18, 2017
February
02
Feb
18
18
2017
11:59 PM
11
11
59
PM
PDT
Seversky @59:
[...] the only rational basis for morality is the expressed assent of the morally governed.
What if the morally governed are divided by different opposite irreconcilable opinions? What do you suggest to be the rational basis for morality in such a case?Dionisio
February 18, 2017
February
02
Feb
18
18
2017
11:57 PM
11
11
57
PM
PDT
Seversky @59:
[...] unless they had got the agreement of all those likely to be affected by their actions then what they did was immoral.
Do you mean that unless the pro-abortionists get the agreement of all the unborn children likely to be affected by their actions then what they do is immoral?Dionisio
February 18, 2017
February
02
Feb
18
18
2017
11:47 PM
11
11
47
PM
PDT
Seversky @59:
Would the Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, mentally ill and other nationalities or groups that the Nazis considered to be inferior have consented to being killed in huge numbers?
Were the Nazis supposed to care about others' opinions on any subject? Were they supposed to depend on others' approval of their plans or actions? Why?Dionisio
February 18, 2017
February
02
Feb
18
18
2017
11:40 PM
11
11
40
PM
PDT
Seversky @59:
Did the Germans consult the Czechs, Poles, Belgians, Dutch French or Russian before invading them?
Did they have to? Why?Dionisio
February 18, 2017
February
02
Feb
18
18
2017
11:33 PM
11
11
33
PM
PDT
Seversky @20:
In fact, what else is there that could provide a “foundation” – whatever is meant by that – for morality, other than what people agree amongst themselves is best for them?
Please, let me know if I understood you correctly. Here’s an example that seems to illustrate your statement: In the 1930s the Nazi Germans agreed amongst themselves that the best for them was to annihilate everyone they considered “subhuman” or “unfit”. Is that what you had in mind?Dionisio
February 18, 2017
February
02
Feb
18
18
2017
11:31 PM
11
11
31
PM
PDT
Seversky @59:
[...] moral codes should be the product of inter-subjective agreement
What is your suggestion on how to do that?Dionisio
February 18, 2017
February
02
Feb
18
18
2017
11:28 PM
11
11
28
PM
PDT
groovamos @ 56
Yes, way to go Seversky. The Germans and their leaders had something for this called Lebensraum in which they gave themselves persmission to launch a couple of world wars, and exclude certain kinds of people from their plans by genocide. According to you, what they agreed upon among themselves was just enough to make it moral, and I would punctuate with an LOL for any of your blunders except this one because of the resulting calamity of your type of justification for morality. There are plenty of you around thinking this way obviously. Thank you so much for demonstrating the whole point of the culture war for the young ones reading this thread.
And you, like so many others here seem determined to miss the point. Did the Germans consult the Czechs, Poles, Belgians, Dutch French or Russian before invading them? No, of course not. Do you think those other countries would have consented to invasion if they'd been asked. No, of course not. Would they have considered invasion a moral act? No, of course not. Would the Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, mentally ill and other nationalities or groups that the Nazis considered to be inferior have consented to being killed in huge numbers? Would they have considered it moral? I'm pretty sure the wouldn't have. Not that they were ever asked, of course. And that is the point. Yes, some Nazis may have considered what they did to be moral but unless they had got the agreement of all those likely to be affected by their actions then what they did was immoral. The same applies to any religion that tries to impose its beliefs on others by force. Perhaps many Germans thought that fighting for the greater glory of the Fatherland was morally justified. Most of the rest of the world disagreed and were prepared to fight bloody wars to make their point In a democracy, a government derives its legitimacy and authority from the expressed assent of the governed. By the same toke, the only rational basis for morality is the expressed assent of the morally governed, in other words, moral codes should be the product of inter-subjective agreement.Seversky
February 18, 2017
February
02
Feb
18
18
2017
11:04 PM
11
11
04
PM
PDT
In the story written @7, the engineer who said that they could not lie or steal because that's against God's will, and the engineer who told the story about the interesting case of a visually impaired person being very capable of working at a cash register in a cafeteria, those two engineers of the story, both were -as far as I can tell- believers in Christ, who made them, made you, made me and made everything that exist, as it is written in the New Testament of the Christian Scriptures: [John 1:1-3 (ESV)]
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Reformation Study Bible provided by Ligonier Ministries:
1:1 the Word. The term “Word” (Greek logos) designates God the Son with respect to His deity; “Jesus” and “Christ” refer to His incarnation and saving work. During the first three centuries, doctrines of the Person of Christ focused intensely on His position as the Logos. In Greek philosophy, the Logos was “reason” or “logic” as an abstract force that brought order and harmony to the universe. But in John’s writings such qualities of the Logos are gathered in the Person of Christ. In Neo-Platonic philosophy and the Gnostic heresy (second and third centuries a.d.), the Logos was seen as one of many intermediate powers between God and the world. Such notions are far removed from the simplicity of John’s Gospel. In this verse the Word is expressly affirmed to be God. The Word existed already “in the beginning” (a clear reference to the opening words of the Bible), which is a way of denoting the eternity that is unique to God. John states clearly, “the Word was God.” Some have observed that the word translated “God” here has no definite article, and argued on this basis that it means “a god” rather than “God.” This is a misunderstanding; the article is omitted because of the word order in the Greek sentence (the predicate “God” has been placed first for emphasis). The New Testament never endorses the idea of “a god,” an expression that implies polytheism and is in sharp conflict with the consistent monotheism of the Bible. In the New Testament, the Greek word for “God” occurs often without the definite article, depending on the requirements of Greek grammar. That “the Word was with God,” indicates a distinction of Persons within the unity of the Godhead. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not successive forms of appearance of one Person, but are eternal Persons present from “the beginning” (v. 2). “With” suggests a relationship of close personal intimacy. 1:3 All things were made through him. This verse also emphasizes the deity of the Word, since creation belongs to God alone.
A follower of Christ has the spirit of God dwelling within. That spirit takes the fun out of sinning. To lie or to steal is sin. It ain't good. The joke in the store @7 suggested a sinful action. That's why it was unacceptable to the two persons who did not laugh at the bad joke. Apparently the cafeteria story was initially intended only to show that interesting case of a visually-impaired person doing an excellent work as a cashier. The joking questions asked by someone else were out of place, because they suggested something that was sinful and at least two persons in that story considered it unacceptable. Why unacceptable? Because they believe the written word of God tells us what is acceptable to God in this age of grace: [Matthew 22:36-40 (ESV)]
“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”
Reformation Study Bible provided by Ligonier Ministries:
A way of referring to the entire Old Testament. Love fulfills the law because it sums up God’s commandments and motivates obedience to them (Rom. 13:8–10; 1 Cor. 13). It does not dissolve God’s norms for conduct, but illumines and deepens them (5:17; Rom. 8:4).
[Mark 12:29-31 (ESV)]
Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
Reformation Study Bible provided by Ligonier Ministries:
Jesus joins Lev. 19:18 to Deut. 6:4, 5, a text that James calls “the royal law” (James 2:8).
[Luke 10:26-28 (ESV)]
He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” And he said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.”
Reformation Study Bible provided by Ligonier Ministries:
The lawyer showed insight; Jesus summed up the law in much the same way (Matt. 22:37–40). 10:28 do this. God’s will is the way of life.
Christ also tells us: [Matthew 5:7,8,9 (ESV)]
“Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God.
Reformation Study Bible provided by Ligonier Ministries:
they shall see God. Because God is a spirit, His divine essence is invisible (Col. 1:15; 1 Tim. 1:17; 6:16). Nevertheless, believers will “see” God through the insight of faith, and Jesus assured His disciples that in seeing Him they had “seen the Father” (John 14:9). In the glorified state, God’s children will “see him as he is” (1 John 3:2).
peacemakers. Spiritual peace, not the cessation of physical violence between nations, is in view. Although the term is usually understood to mean those who help others find peace with God, this peace can also be understood as those who have made their own peace with God and are called His children. The principle is extended in vv. 44, 45—the children of God make peace, even with their enemies.
[Matthew 5:16 (ESV)]
In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.
Here's what God tells us about retaliation: [Matthew 5:38-42 (ESV)]
“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.
Reformation Study Bible provided by Ligonier Ministries:
An eye for an eye. The original intent of Ex. 21:24, Lev. 24:20, and Deut. 19:21 is that punishment should be equitable and should fit the crime. These limitations prohibited exacting a greater vengeance (such as Lamech boasted in Gen. 4:23) or having different penalties for different social classes. Jesus contradicted those who saw in this principle grounds for personal vengeance. Do not resist. In context this means “do not seek restitution in court.” The slap on the right cheek is a backhanded one—an insult as well as injury. Jesus’ remarks may refer back to the words of the Servant of the Lord in Is. 50:6. if anyone forces you. The possibility of a Roman soldier coercing a person to serve as a guide or burden carrier was real. Even if compelled by force to do something for someone, one can demonstrate freedom by volunteering more than was demanded rather than begrudging the service.
Here's what God tells us about loving our enemies: [Matthew 5:43-48 (ESV)]
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Reformation Study Bible provided by Ligonier Ministries:
hate your enemy. This is not in the Old Testament, but was a false conclusion in scribal teaching drawn from the narrow understanding of “neighbor” as simply one’s fellow Jew. Jesus shows that the true intent of Lev. 19:18 extends even to one’s enemies (Luke 10:29–37). Proverbs 16:33 (ESV) "The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord." be perfect. The standard that God demands of His people is His own perfect character. God’s perfection includes the love of benevolent grace (v. 45). Although perfection is not attainable in this life, it is the goal of those who have become children of the Father (Phil. 3:12, 13).
The Germans who claimed to be Christians but supported or accepted the Nazi doctrine were not pleasing God. Those who love God want to please Him. Therefore, were they really Christians? However, people who don't believe in Christ don't care about pleasing Him, hence they could act against other people without any remorse. The examples you provided refer to those people. They don't belong to Christ, hence they are against truth and life. Christ is the only embodiment of Truth and Life. What God tells us is written in the Christian Scriptures, His special revelation to His people. The Bible says only what it says and it doesn't say anything that it doesn't say. But many won't understand it. There was a time when I didn't care about God or anything related to it. I was spiritually lost, but now I'm found. I was spiritually blind, but now I see. God gave me the saving faith in Christ the Lord. I did not deserve it at all. That's amazing grace. One day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Christ is Lord. But then it will be too late for many to reconcile with their Creator. Now is the time to believe in Him.Dionisio
February 18, 2017
February
02
Feb
18
18
2017
11:02 PM
11
11
02
PM
PDT
@Dionisio
What I believe they meant was that even in the case that they would be tempted to do something against other people, they would resist the temptation because they wanted to please God who has taught them to love their neighbors as themselves.
I did read the entire comment and understand what was implied. I don't see how that addresses my criticism. Waging war is not easy. ISIS fighters are targets of airstrikes by multiple governments and despised by many around the world. Nor would such behavior be tolerated by most societies, so they live a hard life. As such, I imagine it would be tempting to let infidels live, rather than kill them. However, ISIS thinks they have identified what God truly values and demands of them and, apparently, they think that includes killing infidels. So, they resist that temptation because they want to please God and actually take their lives. Furthermore, even if they accept the precept of “love your neighbor as you would love yourself”, their explanation of how the world works would lead to a different interpretation of who their "neighbor" is or when and what it means to “love" them. For example, if they really do believe God demands the death of infidels, they would believe others should kill them if they were infidels as well. If others did not, they would be punished eternally like they would if they should the let them live. IOW, if one took their belief seriously, threatening infidels with death is in everyone’s best interest, protects neighbors from being lead astray, etc. And if those that do not convert are a threat to them and their neighbors. You’d want the most dangerous threat removed, right? It’s unclear how you, or anyone else for that matter, knows that’s not what God really demands unless they have an infallible way to identify and interpret divine sources of moral values, should they actually exist. So in the absence of that, what do you do instead? I’m suggesting that one’s acceptance or rejection of that interpretation is actually based on what you personally conclude a perfectly good, transcendent being would or would not do, rather than your experience of reading the Bible. This is because nothing you experience while reading it, or any other holy text tells, you which of any is accurate or complete. All observations and experiences are, as Karl Popper put it, “theory laden.” You must interpret them with some sort of theory, such as, a perfectly good God would do X, Y, and Z, rather than A, B and C, which causes you to accept one holy text (interpreting some parts of it as metaphors and others as literal) and completely reject others. If you can’t imagine God behaving this way, it would seem obvious to you that he would not and you would reject it. But nothing is obvious in the sense that it comes to us from the senses. Human reasoning and criticism always comes first. Including which supped divine moral code you happen to believe in. However, feel free to explain how that wouldn’t be the case. How are you in any better position?critical rationalist
February 18, 2017
February
02
Feb
18
18
2017
06:51 PM
6
06
51
PM
PDT
Seversky: In fact, what else is there that could provide a “foundation” – whatever is meant by that – for morality, other than what people agree amongst themselves is best for them? Yes, way to go Seversky. The Germans and their leaders had something for this called Lebensraum in which they gave themselves persmission to launch a couple of world wars, and exclude certain kinds of people from their plans by genocide. According to you, what they agreed upon among themselves was just enough to make it moral, and I would punctuate with an LOL for any of your blunders except this one because of the resulting calamity of your type of justification for morality. There are plenty of you around thinking this way obviously. Thank you so much for demonstrating the whole point of the culture war for the young ones reading this thread. Here you go read up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraumgroovamos
February 18, 2017
February
02
Feb
18
18
2017
04:06 PM
4
04
06
PM
PDT
critical rationalist @48: First, thank you for your comments and your questions. I'm assuming you want to engage in a serious discussion. Let's start from reviewing the text you quoted fom my comment @7. I'm assuming that you read the entire comment @7 carefully before posting your comment @48.
“Then I heard something I had not heard before: the second engineer said that they wouldn’t do such a thing because it isn’t pleasing to God.”
Please, understand that the "such a thing" they wouldn't do was lying and stealing. Do you agree with this? IOW, the same statement could have been written this way:
“Then I heard something I had not heard before: the second engineer said that they wouldn’t lie and steal because it wouldn't please God.”
What I believe they meant was that even in the case that they would be tempted to do something against other people, they would resist the temptation because they wanted to please God who has taught them to love their neighbors as themselves. Do you understand this? I'll try and come back to review the rest of your comment @48, but I assume that this comment may clarify a few things for you.Dionisio
February 18, 2017
February
02
Feb
18
18
2017
02:38 PM
2
02
38
PM
PDT
Your 29, rvb8. You clearly have not the remotest acquaintance with the negative meanings of the words, 'wisdom' and 'intelligence', as used in either Judaeo-Christian scripture or, indeed, the other mainstream religions. Even in physics, at least, since the discovery of QM, the deepest truths have been discovered to be opaque to the unaided analytical intelligence. Indeed, they are invariably paradoxical, mysterious, repugnant to reason - although, when accepted as such, they are very productive as springboards, stepping-stones, towards further discoveries through the normal application of reason. Look up the quotes of Niels Bohr in Wikiquotes. They clearly indicate that the partisans of scientism are like monkeys, in that just as monkeys are trapped because they will not loosen their fingers around a peanut in a hole, fashioned just big enough for their narrowed fingers to enter, but not big enough their fist to be extricated, materialists can't let go of the notion that one day, man will be able to understand everything ; almost does so now ! Hence the frequent, cretinous recourse to the use of the word, 'counter-intuitive', in reference to a paradox, a mystery, totally repugnant to reason ; as if they had to depend on their intuition to establish that something being simultaneously a particle and a wave was counter-rational ! Since it is now standard usage, no doubt, the 'religious' scientists are pretty much bound to fall in line ; given the totalitarian regime imposed by the large multinationals, funding most research. Unless it is underpinned by spiritual understanding (including common sense and honest reasoning) the knowledge and understanding of the unaided, analytical intelligence is degraded. Spiritual wisdom necessitates a mode of life consonant with certain basic, spiritual precepts, which Aldous Huxley described in his essay on comparative religion, The Perennial Philosophy. It makes spiritual demands on the adherent, not spiritual demands according to the adherent's personal tastes and preferences, i.e. the atheist's 'smorgasbord' religion, which as our modern world indicates is 'all over the place'. The last straw has to be the splicing of the paternity of 'test-tube' produced children. Has it happened yet ? I hope not. One of the Fatima messages of the Virgin Mary to the children was that the final conflict against the forces of darkness would concern the family. And that sure makes sense to me. The first responsory in last Sunday's Office of Readings in the Breviary : Romans 12:16 ; I Corinthians 3:18-19 ; I : 23,24 'Do not think of yourselves as wise ; if anyone among you thinks of himself as wise according to this world's standards, he should become a fool, in order to be really wise, for what this world considers to be wisdom is nonsense in Gods's sight. V. We proclaim Christ on the cross, Christ who is the power of God and the wisdom of God, for what this world considers wisdom is nonsense in God's sight.' ---------------- 'Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment; Cleverness is mere opinion, bewilderment is intuition.' Jalal-uddin Rumi I believe Rumi was a Sufi, but while Bohr is said to have inclined towards a Buddhist perspective on things, Rumi's words here make him sound like Bohr, but, on the other hand, one could also substitute Planck for Bohr, in terms of his perspective on the mysterious truths of QM.Axel
February 18, 2017
February
02
Feb
18
18
2017
02:35 PM
2
02
35
PM
PDT
Seversky @20:
In fact, what else is there that could provide a “foundation” – whatever is meant by that – for morality, other than what people agree amongst themselves is best for them?
Please, let me know if I understood you correctly. Here's an example that seems to illustrate your statement: In the 1930s the Nazi Germans agreed amongst themselves that the best for them was to annihilate everyone they considered "subhuman" or "unfit". Is that what you had in mind?Dionisio
February 18, 2017
February
02
Feb
18
18
2017
02:20 PM
2
02
20
PM
PDT
From the post: "Harris makes two assumptions—first, that well-being is a moral good, and, second, that we know what the observable properties of well-being are." Actually, he's also assuming that I have a duty to care about the well-being of others. Where could such a duty possibly come from if not from a transcendent, personal being?Dick
February 18, 2017
February
02
Feb
18
18
2017
02:01 PM
2
02
01
PM
PDT
john_a_designer quoted:
Christianity presupposes that man does not and cannot know what is good or bad for him: the Christian believes in God who, alone, can know these things. Christian morality is a command, its origin is transcendental. It is beyond all criticism, all right to criticism; it is true only on condition that God is truth,–it stands or falls with the belief in God.
Since "man" does not and cannot know what is good, how can "man" distinguish one true set of divine moral truths from another? How can he correctly interpret them, including the presupposition you quoted? In fact, it's unclear how we could know any currently proposed source of divine moral truth is actually correct or even complete. IOW, when you lack infallible access to what God values or demands, it's unclear how this helps you in practice. A such, you're left with irrationalism or human reasoning and criticism.
For our atheist interlocutors: The question in not whether atheists can live conventionally moral lives. I believe many can and do. The question is whether you as an atheist have any kind of sufficient basis for any kind of morality at all. If you do tell us what it is.
What we face on a daily basis are concrete moral problems to solve. And when we solve them, new moral problems arise, some of which we have not been presented with yet and which no holy text has yet to address. As such, it's unclear how they could be used to solve moral problems, in practice.. Rather what I'm suggesting we do is conjecture solutions to those problems and criticize them. That's how all knowledge grows. Including moral knowledge. We guess and criticize our guesses. And, in the process, we use background knowledge that itself came from guesses and criticism, etc. Moral knowledge genuinely created, where it did not exist before. Assuming we haven't killed ourselves off, been hit by an asteroid, etc. The moral problems we will face in the mid to distant future will be vastly different than we have know. New moral knowledge will be need to be created to solve them What do I mean by rational criticism in the context of moral problems? To quote Popper...
"Whenever we are faced with a moral decision of a more abstract kind, it is most helpful to analyse carefully the consequences which are likely to result from the alternatives between which we have to choose. For only if we can visualize these consequences in a concrete and practical way, do we really know what our decision is about; otherwise we decide blindly. In order to illustrate this point, I may quote a passage from Shaw’s Saint Joan. The speaker is the Chaplain; he has stubbornly demanded Joan’s death; but when he sees her at the stake, he breaks down : ‘I meant no harm. I did not know what it would be like .. I did not know what I was doing .. If I had known, I would have torn her from their hands. You don’t know. You haven’t seen : it is so easy to talk when you don’t know. You madden yourself with words .. But when it is brought home to you; when you see the thing you have done; when it is blinding your eyes, stifling your nostrils, tearing your heart, then—then—O God, take away this sight from me!’ There were, of course, other figures in Shaw’s play who knew exactly what they were doing, and yet decided to do it; and who did not regret it afterwards. Some people dislike seeing their fellow men burning at the stake and others do not. This point (which was neglected by many Victorian optimists) is important…an analysis of the concrete consequences, and their clear realization in what we call our ‘imagination’, makes the difference between a blind decision and a decision made with open eyes; and since we use our imagination very little, we only too often decide blindly."
This is opposed to the theological idea that moral knowledge doesn't actually grow, but is bound to some ultimate authority, that "just was" complete with this moral knowledge already present. No explanation is given.critical rationalist
February 18, 2017
February
02
Feb
18
18
2017
01:41 PM
1
01
41
PM
PDT
asauber @44:
Atheists begin by failing to describe their own position correctly.
Well, let me wear the 'bona fide' defense lawyer hat on behalf of the atheists. See, contrary to the mistaken affirmations someone wrote* @22 & @29, I was educated in strong atheist states, along with many other strong atheist colleagues. I had to pass the official statewide test on materialist philosophy in order to get my engineering degree. Needless to say I passed it with bright colors. I could teach atheism to many current atheists. But I don't want to squander precious time on senseless discussions with folks that don't seem interested in having serious discussions. Back then I believed that I was taught facts and others who thought differently were just out of touch with reality. I strongly believed as a nonnegotiable fact that the universe had always existed, and that matter could not be created nor destroyed, just transformed. I could debate that from the 'strong' position that I held based on the 'solid facts' I had been taught. I did the same on basically any area of discussion. When I socialized with Polish students and they told me that the soviets had killed many Polish officers in Katyn before the Nazi troops had invaded the Soviet Union, I told them that they were wrong because that sounded like dirty anti-Soviet propaganda originated on the west side of the Cold War Iron Curtain and I explained to them that the Nazis had done it. Now, imagine this: I was teaching Polish history (which I knew almost nothing about) to Polish people, who definitely knew much more about their own country. But I believed the official information given to me back then. I took it all as solid fact. Since their statements contradicted my beliefs, I 'knew' they had to be wrong. I was that simple. (*) no idea where he got that misinformation from. Did he make it up?Dionisio
February 18, 2017
February
02
Feb
18
18
2017
01:34 PM
1
01
34
PM
PDT
'I think', being Harris' operative phrase, Barry, qualified, as you wittily point out, by nothing that would not lend itself to the grossest satire. I think I'll go with 'rocket science', rather than 'brain surgery', as a metaphor for high intelligence from now on. How did he ever qualify?Axel
February 18, 2017
February
02
Feb
18
18
2017
01:02 PM
1
01
02
PM
PDT
Dionisio wrote
"Then I heard something I had not heard before: the second engineer said that they wouldn’t do such a thing because it isn’t pleasing to God."
When the ISIS solder was asked, "Why didn't you let the infidels live when it would have been much easier than waging an entire war to kill them?, he replied "I wouldn't do such a thing because [letting the infidels live] isn't pleasing to God." The ISIS solder is making the same appeal. How do you know he's wrong and you're right? Specifically, even if some divine objective moral truth existed, you would need the ability to infallibly identify the right set of moral values and infallibly interpret them before you could actually apply them, in practice. Right? Can you explain how that works, in detail? How else do you decide other than using human reasoning and criticism?critical rationalist
February 18, 2017
February
02
Feb
18
18
2017
12:25 PM
12
12
25
PM
PDT
bb @ 19,
Didn’t Nietzsche say as much and also claim that our Christian-based morality would fall by the wayside because God is dead? I never read his writing, but only commentary on his works.
Here is a quote from his short tract or booklet, Twilight of the Idols, which speaks to that.
When we renounce the Christian faith, we abandon all right to Christian morality… Christianity is a system, a complete outlook upon the world, conceived as a whole. If its leading concept, the belief in God, is wrenched from it, the whole is destroyed; nothing vital remains in our grasp. Christianity presupposes that man does not and cannot know what is good or bad for him: the Christian believes in God who, alone, can know these things. Christian morality is a command, its origin is transcendental. It is beyond all criticism, all right to criticism; it is true only on condition that God is truth,--it stands or falls with the belief in God.
But if we reject a morality that is based on some sort higher transcendent good as Nietzcche wanted to do, with what do we replace it? That is a question for which atheistic naturalists/materialists do not appear to have an adequate answer-- or if they do it is not forthcoming. Why not? For our atheist interlocutors: The question in not whether atheists can live conventionally moral lives. I believe many can and do. The question is whether you as an atheist have any kind of sufficient basis for any kind of morality at all. If you do tell us what it is. Showing up here and obfuscating about morality does not accomplish anything. All it does is waste peoples time, which ironically is neither respectful nor ethical.john_a_designer
February 18, 2017
February
02
Feb
18
18
2017
12:16 PM
12
12
16
PM
PDT
I agree that science cannot "ground" moral values. First, science consists of conjecturing theories about how the work works and criticizing them via empirical tests and there are no empirical tests we can perform that tell us we should value truth or human flourishing. Second, I'd suggest you're asking the wrong question, as there are no foundations to knowledge, moral or otherwise. Knowege grows via conjecture and criticim. Theism is a form of philosophical foundationalism that assumes that knowledge comes from authoritative sources. It says there must be some refuge of last resort we can appeal to that will not lead us astray from truth. However, it's unclear how this would actually work in practice. Is that God speaking to you or is it your personal beliefs about what you think God would tell you? How do you infallibly identify those voices as coming from God, demons, your own thoughts or a neurological condition? You use human reasoning and criticism to draw conclusions from your experiences because the conclusions are out there for us to experience. Human reasoning and criticism always comes first.critical rationalist
February 18, 2017
February
02
Feb
18
18
2017
11:22 AM
11
11
22
AM
PDT
As I've pointed out to Barry before, it's unclear how he can infallibly identify, let alone infallibly interpret, a supposed divine source of objective moral values. Specifically, there are many claims of divine moral truth. Assuming at least one of them is accurate and complete, how does Barry know it correlates with what the Christian God supposedly values and demands? And, even if that was the case, how does he know he is correctly intepreting Christian moral texts? Unless he can infallibly identify and interpret any supposed divine moral truths, Barry must have first used human reasoning and criticism, which is the very thing he claims is inadequate, to determine which divine truth to follow and how to interpret it. IOW, Barry thinks a morally perfect being would value and demaind X, Y and Z. Therefore, he adopts divine moral truths that correlate with his conclusions and rejects those that do not. And he has reached his conclusion about what God values and demains via human reasoning and criticism. So, it's unclear how he is in any better position than non-theists. I don't think "God" is a good explanation for moral knowledge and Barry wouldn't have the necessary access to apply them in practice, even it they did exist. Then again, perhaps Barry can explan how he can infallibly identify and intepret divine sources of moral truth. How does he avoid appealing to the very things he claims are inadequate? How would that work in practice?critical rationalist
February 18, 2017
February
02
Feb
18
18
2017
10:44 AM
10
10
44
AM
PDT
Yes, Atheists begin by failing to describe their own position correctly. Andrewasauber
February 18, 2017
February
02
Feb
18
18
2017
10:27 AM
10
10
27
AM
PDT
1 4 5 6 7 8

Leave a Reply