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Can Science Ground Morality?

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Of course not, as we have often noted in these pages.

James Davison Hunter’s and Paul Nedelisky’s  Where the New Science of Morality Goes Wrong is a great primer on the subject.  Their take down of Sam Harris is especially good:

The new moral scientists sometimes provide certain examples that they think illustrate that science has demonstrated (or can demonstrate) that certain moral claims are true or false. A favorite is the health or medical analogy. Neuroscientist and author Sam Harris, for example, employs the health analogy to argue that science can demonstrate moral value. A bit more circumspect than some who use the analogy, he recognizes that he’s assuming that certain observable properties are tied to certain moral values. Harris puts it this way:

Science cannot tell us why, scientifically, we should value health. But once we admit that health is the proper concern of medicine, we can then study and promote it through science…. I think our concern for well-being is even less in need for justification than our concern for health is.… And once we begin thinking seriously about human well-being, we will find that science can resolve specific questions about morality and human values.12

Harris makes two assumptions—first, that well-being is a moral good, and, second, that we know what the observable properties of well-being are. Yet he doesn’t see these assumptions as problematic for the scientific status of his argument. After all, he reasons, we make similar assumptions in medicine, but we can all recognize that it is still a science. But he still doesn’t recognize that this thinking is fatal to his claim that science can determine moral values. To make the problem for Harris more vivid, compare his argument above with arguments that share the same logic and structure:

  • Science cannot tell us why, scientifically, we should value the enslavement of Africans. But once we admit that slavery is the proper concern of social science, we can then study and promote it through science. I think our concern for embracing slavery is even less in need for justification than our concern for health is. And once we begin thinking seriously about slavery, we will find that science can resolve specific questions about morality and human values.

  • Science cannot tell us why, scientifically, we should value the purging of Jews, gypsies, and the mentally disabled from society. But once we admit that their eradication is the proper concern of social science, we can then study and promote it through science.

  • Science cannot tell us why, scientifically, we should value a prohibition on gay marriage. But once we admit that such a prohibition is the proper concern of social science, we can then study and promote it through science.

 

Comments
The story @7 could have been changed, so that in lieu of the visually impaired cashier, let's suppose each item has a tag with a label displaying a unique code that identifies every item, but the customer has to take each item from the tray and scan it separately and put it back on the same tray. Let's also assume there's nobody else there and there aren't cameras around. Basically it's the customer alone deciding whether to scan every item or not, without visible consequences, except the direct monetary savings resulting from not scanning an item (specially an expensive one). Would that change the story bottom line message about integrity and honesty? Are there other variations one could think of without changing the central lesson of the story? Here's another situation: Let's say the customer has to manually enter the price of every item on a calculator next to a box where the payment is deposited (cash only) separating the paper bills and coins by their denominations. If change is due, then one takes it from the box. Nobody watching, no cameras filming. Just you alone. No negative consequences in worldly terms. Integrity and honesty test.Dionisio
February 17, 2017
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Marfin @9: Good comment. Thank you.Dionisio
February 17, 2017
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Already is. Morality as defined in old books, whether Abrahamic or Buddhist or Confucian, is a long lab report from a long set of painful experiments. Civilizations figured out which behaviors lead to survival, and which behaviors lead to death. They recorded the survivable actions as "God's Laws". These books are explicitly scientific and explicitly Darwinian. Natural selection at its best. These books are NOT "scientific" in the modern sense. They do NOT advocate bizarre untestable genocidal delusions and totally disproved genocidal theories in the hope of getting billion-dollar grants.polistra
February 17, 2017
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Compared to the average readers out there, my reading comprehension is relatively low, but in case someone has it even lower and has trouble understanding the bottom line of the comment @7, here's another story that shows that same issue but in this case associated with real horror:
The SS men kept the people fated to die unaware of what awaited them. They were told that they were being sent to the camp, but that they first had to undergo disinfection and bathe. After the victims undressed, they were taken into the gas chamber, locked in, and killed with Zyklon B gas.
http://auschwitz.org/en/history/auschwitz-and-shoah/the-extermination-procedure-in-the-gas-chambers Please, note this: "[...] kept the people [...] unaware of [...]" "They were told that [...]" In the above story, did the "SS men" lie? Were the prisoners told the truth? In the comment @7 does anyone have troubles seeing the issue of integrity or lack of it at the center of the story? Don't we have that same problem everywhere we look, starting from ourselves? However, what's wrong with not telling the truth? Is there anything wrong with being dishonest? Anything wrong with lack of integrity? Does anyone need help to understanding this?Dionisio
February 17, 2017
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Rvb8. Obviously you don`t know Dawkins very well as in his world there would be no blind , crippled or handicapped,as he would ensure they are all aborted at birth. Most atheist really do miss the point of this whole morality debate, no one is for a minute saying atheist`s cannot be moral, what we say is they have on subjective basis for said morality.So rvb8 is eating meat right or wrong, is aborting babies because they are female, mixed race,Down Syndrome, right or wrong, is leaving your wife with 3 or 4 young children , while you skip town with your 21 year old secretary right or wrong who has the final say on these matters who decides right or wrong , is there perhaps a lab test we can do to reach a conclusion. According to Dawkins , Coyne et al , everything is a product of evolution so murder, rape, Genocide, giving to charity, helping old ladies across the road, all just selected for fitness no right no wrong just fitness.Marfin
February 17, 2017
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Dionisio, there is no 'funny story', there. If the atheists that I interact with had thought that stiffing the blind was a laughable tale, I too would quickly get new friends. Do you really believe Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris etc sit around telling funny tales about how they flattened the tyres of a cripples wheel chair, or how they duped the hearing impaired? If these are the examples of the atheists you used to know, I would seriously consider getting religious friends too! Where is the humour? A person is at a disadvantage and is weaker, so the person with the advantage and is stronger is to use that stronger position to gain cash, or free food? There's no 'irony', that I can see, it's not a 'parody' of anything, there is no observable 'satire', and no one slips on a banana peel, so 'slap stick', is out: They are the four modes of joke making in any culture, and your 'funny' story fails at each. What I do see is a mean spirited, selfish streak, of the, 'he's a loser' so kick him while hes down schtick. But that's not humour, that's the powerful abusing their power. I don't need to be one of your God fearing engineers to see that your former (atheist?) friends were dicks, and you were right to leave them. As a strong atheist, I too would sit by them no longer, good on you for leaving.rvb8
February 17, 2017
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Barry, I think the answer to your question is NO. Also, I don't think morality can be legislated. Years ago one could fill the car tank at any gas station in my town before paying. Not anymore. Now one has to pay before starting to pump. What caused that change? Here's a case where a bunch of engineers laughed out loud when someone jokingly suggested an immoral action: Long ago, when leftovers of my strong atheist past still poluted my mind, shortly before God gave me the saving faith in Christ as my Savior and Lord, I witnessed at work an unusual conversation that left me wondering for quite some time. A few engineers from different parts of the country were in our office for a training meeting. At lunch time my supervisor invited my fellow programmers and me to join the visiting engineers for lunch. One of the engineers told an interesting story about his visit to a large institution. He said that in their cafeteria, when he approached the cashier with his food on a tray, the cashier asked him to describe what was on the tray. The cashier was visually impaired and could not see anything on the tray, but somehow could operate the cash register! The cashier asked what was on the tray and told him the total to pay. I don’t remember the amount, but let’s say it was $4.50. The engineer gave the cashier a $5 bill while saying what it was. The cashier gave back the $0.50 change right away. Immediately after we heard the interesting short story, one of my colleagues jokingly asked the storyteller if he really told the cashier what was on his tray. To my surprise, the engineer did not understand the question. I knew that engineer well, and considered him very smart, hence I was shocked by his apparent lack of capacity to understand such a simple joke. Trying to make the joke funnier, my colleague asked the storyteller if he really told the cashier the real value of the bill. Some of us there laughed out loud at the joke, but the engineer and another fellow engineer who also was visiting from another town remained serious with faces that revealed their complete misunderstanding of the funny joke. At that point my colleague explained his joke, saying that the storyteller could have told the blind cashier that on his tray he had just one cheap item that cost less than a dollar (eg. $0.75 fountain soda) and then give the cashier a $1 bill while saying that it was a $20 bill. Thus the engineer could have made $18.25 on top of having a free lunch valued $4.50! The other engineer who had not laughed at the joke said that he couldn't do that. My joking colleague argued back that the cashier would not have noticed the difference and according to the storyteller no one else was around them at that moment, hence there were no potential witnesses to that moneymaking transaction. Then I heard something I had not heard before: the second engineer said that they wouldn't do such a thing because it isn't pleasing to God. Huh? Say what? Lunch time was over. I went back to my office. Haven't forgotten that conversation yet.Dionisio
February 16, 2017
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Science is about what is, morality is about what ought to be. No way to bridge the gap.Seversky
February 16, 2017
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Stutzman herself had admitted that providing flowers to a wedding between Muslims would not constitute an endorsement for Islam, nor would flowers for an atheist wedding have endorsed atheism.
Strictly speaking, Islam and Atheism are not sexual orientations. The issue is back to what marriage is. Andrewasauber
February 16, 2017
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Of course not. On a off-topic note related to old topics, https://thinkprogress.org/washington-supreme-court-arlenes-flowers-d15c3d7f3150#.ez80e6xa4
The Washington Supreme Court ruled unanimously Thursday that Barronelle Stutzman, owner of Arlene’s Flowers, violated state nondiscrimination laws when she refused to sell flowers for a same-sex couple’s wedding back in 2013. When Robert Ingersoll and Curt Freed asked her to provide flowers for their wedding, Stutzman refused, citing her religious beliefs. Both the couple and the state attorney general sued her for violating Washington’s law protecting against discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, and she countersued, seeking the right to engage in such discrimination in the name of “religious freedom.” A lower court had ruled against her and required her to pay a fine of $1,000. The argument Stutzman offered is that she didn’t discriminate against the couple because of their sexual orientation, but the Court rejected Stutzman’s “proposed distinction between status and conduct fundamentally linked to that status.” Only a person with a same-sex orientation would enter a same-sex wedding, so to refuse such a wedding is to discriminate on the basis of orientation. The Court also rejected Stutzman’s arguments that the nondiscrimination law infringed on her free speech because flower arrangements are artistic. Flowers are not “inherently expressive,” the Court ruled, because “the decision to either provide or refuse to provide flowers for a wedding does not inherently express a message about that wedding.” Stutzman herself had admitted that providing flowers to a wedding between Muslims would not constitute an endorsement for Islam, nor would flowers for an atheist wedding have endorsed atheism.
jdk
February 16, 2017
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Well, for those who worship in the Temple of Science, it's a apparently a perpetual struggle to appease your god. Phony graphs, pal review, internet trolling, character assassinations, bombs, guns, chemical and mechanical abortions... with no end in sight. Wither art thou, morality? Modern science has banished you. Andrewasauber
February 16, 2017
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Why is it even an issue? Evolution bred a sense of reality out of us. What's the point of bothering with morality in that case? Morality just means getting society to shun the other guy instead of you. There's no actual basis for the choice.News
February 16, 2017
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Of course not. Period.Truth Will Set You Free
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