Can We Endure?

WJM “This is what I don’t understand about people who believe there is a Divine Plan and that we are living it out and believe what is waiting for them when it is all over is eternal paradise. What good is all the psychological suffering and/or worry about the state of the world? “ I can only speak for myself but as a Christian I recognize that God is sovereign over all and my hope is not in Govt. Gods SECRET will is being worked out and my trust is in him. As a Christian I also recognize that Biblically God is sovereign but I am also a responsible agent and I am called to act accordingly to His REVEALED will. Vivid vividbleau

Only A Fool Would Let His Enemy Teach His Children – Malcolm X --Ram ram

SB, so rare to see you these days. KF kairosfocus

Vividbleau (and other concerned readers,) This is what I don't understand about people who believe there is a Divine Plan and that we are living it out and believe what is waiting for them when it is all over is eternal paradise. What good is all the psychological suffering and/or worry about the state of the world? Is that helping the plan advance? Is it doing anyone any good? Why not live in as much optimism, joy and happiness as possible? William J Murray

America has a long history of divisiveness. Most colonists did not support revolution for various reasons. Many opposed the Constitution. Our history is recorded to show the sometimes violent differences we have had with one another right from the start. The worst was Wilson, who was as close to a dictator as this nation has ever seen, He used propaganda to turn Americans against Germans, even those whose families had been in the country for generations. Wilson wanted America to come in on the side of France. He segregated the federal government, which included the military. BobRyan

WJM “I’m actually quite optimistic about all of this.” Obviously I hope you are right but I am not optimistic at all. Irreparable damage is being done that will not be able to be undone. Laws are almost never rescinded and if Biden’s BBB plan is made into law, which I think it will be ( Manchin and Synema are just posturing and enjoying the attention but they will vote for it) no matter what happens in 2022 those laws will stay on the books. BBB is an unmitigated disaster for the USA. Vivid vividbleau

In my judgement, America’s founding documents represent mankind’s noblest attempt to provide a sound blueprint for governance because it emphasized the principle of “freedom with responsibility.” But there is the catch – people can govern themselves only if they remain informed and practice the virtue of self-control. That leaves us with the question: If Americans have lost their capacity to govern themselves, who is responsible for that state of affairs? Did our leaders fail us from the top down by selling us out, or did we fail ourselves from the bottom up by refusing to hold them accountable? Or, was it, as I believe, a consequence of both. I would sum it up this way: too many leaders stopped believing in freedom, and too many citizens stopped believing in responsibility. StephenB

Jerry “Is it a fundamental flaw in humans or the susceptibility to misinformation?” It is the result of 50 years of indoctrination of our young, constant propaganda by media and a non informed non virtuous public. “The problem is much deeper and far more serious than Mr. Obama, who is a mere symptom of what ails America. Blaming the prince of the fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of fools that made him their prince. “ Vivid vividbleau

News, Barry, An anonymous quote and about Obama but could easily be said about Biden or by the left about Trump

The danger to America is not Barack Obama but a citizenry capable of entrusting an inexperienced man like him with the Presidency. It will be far easier to limit and undo the follies of an Obama presidency than to restore the necessary common sense and good judgment to a depraved electorate willing to have such a man for their president. The problem is much deeper and far more serious than Mr. Obama, who is a mere symptom of what ails America. Blaming the prince of the fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of fools that made him their prince. The Republic can survive a Barack Obama. It is less likely to survive a multitude of idiots such as those who made him their president.”

This is a relatively educated and prosperous electorate. Is it a fundamental flaw in humans or the susceptibility to misinformation? jerry

Some of us think that the biggest single problem isn't the governments. It is still the case that, in most of the Western world, governments are elected. Even corruption at the ballot box can be tackled. But when Mrs. Nice and her husband XY Barbie vote to defund the police - and then are astonished that their variety store is trashed and the insurance will by no means cover the losses - the problem doesn't lie with government. It may be that Mrs. Nice and XY Barbie can only live under a ruthless totalitarianism, whose propaganda they gabble even if it kills them. If their variety store serves the state, it stands, otherwise, ka-BOOM! And they go to their deaths gabbling what they have been told. They would betray absolutely anything in order to remain the Nice Barbies they either feel they must be or cannot help being. Barry seems to be assuming that most of the human race is suited to the type of constitutional order that the American Founders envisioned. But, as those people's remembrances are being defaced, even in the United States, I humbly submit that there is good cause for doubt. The complexity is this: There are lots of people in every nation who are suited to such an order. But those people may not be our neighbours or our fellow citizens. It's not an easy thing to know what to do next. News

I'm actually quite optimistic about all of this. You can't really teach people some important things; they have to see it and experience it first-hand. How do you "undo" decades (if not longer) of society-wide programming and indoctrination into nihilistic, Marxist, socialism, short of a bloody purge/revolution? You have to let it go so far as to crash into every home and every life so that as many people as possible see and experience first-hand what their sleepy inaction and sloppy thinking has wrought, and what it is on path to becoming. You can't tell them; they have to feel it punch them in the gut. And yes, they're feeling it now. I've personally seen some of the most die-hard leftists/progressives who had been trained into this thinking their whole lives do a 180 degree about-face. It's flagrant and in their face now and has, in many ways, destroyed their comfortable world. And they realize they were the ones cheering it on the whole way. It's like the old saw that you're only anti-gun until you or your wife get mugged or worse. You can only believe that liquid being sprayed on your back is water until you start smelling the urine. It's really an amazing time to live in. Anyone watching what's going on in Austria and Australia? That's what happens when people hit that point where they can't even lie to themselves any more and there's no more "safe spaces" to hide out in. William J Murray

What the founders created, despite their vast differences on every issue, was create the American dream. There is no French dream, but there was the Terror followed by Napolean. No other successful revolution in the history of the world has chosen the path the Americans took to limiting government and embracing individual rights, including the right to own firearms as a means of defense of self. People all over the world want the freedoms we have that are taken for granted. It is a search for greener grass without ever really researching any other country. Most people cannot even criticize their own government without risk of going to prison or getting killed. This is the country where Madam C. J. Walker became the first self-made female millionaire in the history of the world. Had she lived in any other country being born into poverty, no one would know her name today. There are countries where woman and girls are seen as nothing more than property. There are countries that still openly practice slavery, including generational slavery. There are countries seeking to eradicate people who do not meet their standards, such as the Ethiopian Jews. China uses slave labor, including children. They torture Christians and Muslims before killing them. They make people disappear every day. BobRyan

Joe “Do you have a reference for this? “ How about 1.75 million references in the last calendar year? https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/southwest-land-border-encounters “It seems to contradict the 2021 ranking of best countries for racial equality, where the US ranks 69th.” From your article “Here are the top five countries for racial equality, ranked by PERCEPTION” Quite the scientific study I must say!! Vivid vividbleau

PS, yes the US is indeed the number one preferred destination of emigration by people of colour, that is notorious and manifestly true.

Yet, still no reference to support this assertion. It may very well be true, but it would be nice to confirm this by reviewing a reference. Joe Schooner

JS, the want of credibility for the survey you linked with obvious approval can be found in this clip:

Of the 78 countries ranked, the United States, birthplace of the Black Lives Matter movement, finished among the bottom 10 countries for racial equality, a lower ranking than China, a country the international community has condemned and imposed sanctions over its treatment of its Muslim Uyghur population.

KF kairosfocus

JS, you obviously don't understand what it is to have history imprinted in your bones and in my case, written into my name. Tin ear. KF PS, yes the US is indeed the number one preferred destination of emigration by people of colour, that is notorious and manifestly true. Such is a counter weight to the 1619 rhetoric of tainting under false colour of history, which is Frankfurt School, culture form marxist agit prop. Much of it is outright big lie propaganda backed by power and influence that need to be exposed and severely corrected. Starting with, if you cannot pass the July 4, 1776 test you hold negative credibility on matters of policy, politics and governance. PPS: Have you forgotten that the right to petition for redress of grievances is part of US Const Amdt 1? Which is under the force of 2nd para US DoI, right of reform? kairosfocus

Jerry, the only serious candidates would be Britain and its daughters, and Britain was only finally fully democratised in the 1920's. Even now it does not have a written framed Constitution, though there are several bits of legislation of constitutional character. Parliament has too much power to legislate at constitutional level as the balancing Monarchy has been weakened without providing the sort of limits the US Constitution does. Recall, what was done to the powers of the House of Lords about a decade ago, how. Other Commonwealth countries often have Constitutions, and nowadays these start with a Bill of Rights (in our case, I am unhappy with some of its phrasing and the associated back doors written in, including for certain Colonial like interventions and over-rulings through a Governor who is under secret instructions and holds here more potential power than a C18 UK Monarch*). The reality is, the breakthrough to Constitutional, Lawful state Democracy and associated freedom including of enterprise, was in the USA starting 1776. Those who cannot acknowledge that simple and readily demonstrated fact of history, expose their being under the control of crooked yardsticks regarding what is sound on political thought. KF * PS, I would have liked to have seen a Charter of Good Governance as a commitment in the Bill of Rights. kairosfocus

Not by those who choose with their feet. America is by far the destination of choice by people of color.

Do you have a reference for this? It seems to contradict the 2021 ranking of best countries for racial equality, where the US ranks 69th. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/best-countries-for-racial-equality Joe Schooner

Joe Schooner

Whenever people make these types of claims they are implying that those with legitimate complaints should just shut up because they would have it worse elsewhere.

Which legitimate complaints are you thinking of? Origenes

Again, open for debate

I’ve seen nothing that challenges anything I said. So provide something. A good place to start is another country/system that has done it better. jerry

Joe Schooner, go back and read the OP. You don't seem to have done so, at least not very closely. Everyone admits that the ideals of the Declaration were imperfectly realized. But the tree that grew from good seed has born good fruit. We now live in the greatest country that has ever existed. And that greatness includes the fact that it is one of the least racist countries in the world. The incessant lies of the left cannot drown out this truth. Yes, there were compromises in the original constitution. Eventually, it became evident that the country could not live up to its founding principles while those compromises remained. So they were jettisoned in the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments. That is part of the point I made, which you do not seem to get. Barry Arrington

KF, yes, Dune. Barry Arrington

Joe “One could argue the current system is the least racist system in the history of the world, the fairest to women, the fairest to all minorities. Again, open for debate.” Not by those who choose with their feet. America is by far the destination of choice by people of color. Vivid vividbleau

DP, Vivid and the undersigned are descendants of slaves. KF

So what? Does that mean that you speak for all black people? Joe Schooner

But yet the greatest document in the history of mankind. And the greatest nation in the history of mankind.

This is certainly open for debate. Unless you are implying that the strongest equals the greatest.

One could argue the current system is the least racist system in the history of the world, the fairest to women, the fairest to all minorities.

Again, open for debate. Whenever people make these types of claims they are implying that those with legitimate complaints should just shut up because they would have it worse elsewhere. Joe Schooner

How would you know, did you actually ask someone on the left how they feel about freedom?

People have asked and the answer is to cancel those that ask. Oppression/lockdowns are coming from one side of the political spectrum. The side that needs it because their ideas cannot work. jerry

To pretend that it doesn’t have flaws is just blinding yourself to the facts.

But yet the greatest document in the history of mankind. And the greatest nation in the history of mankind. This is the Not Perfect Fallacy. Or the Omission Fallacy. Nothing is perfect but some things are definitely better than others. No one has proposed a better system especially since the current system has been self correcting and getting better. One could argue the current system is the least racist system in the history of the world, the fairest to women, the fairest to all minorities. But yet, a significant minority want to get rid of it. It’s fueled by irrational hate. jerry

BA, Dune? KF

Yup. He took his name from the Fremen name for a mouse-like creature. A great book. The movies, not so much. Joe Schooner

The DoI had lofty goals, but they were not initially held up by the government or the constitution. Voting rights were state specific. Freed slaves were only allowed to vote in a hand full of states. To vote in many states you had to be a white male land owner. Women, well let’s not go there. The constitution was a compromise between slave states and non-slave states. To pretend that it doesn’t have flaws is just blinding yourself to the facts. Joe Schooner

DP, Vivid and the undersigned are descendants of slaves. KF kairosfocus

Barry Can we endure? Honestly I think not, it’s to late to stem the tide. Propaganda is a powerful weapon, it works and it’s been unleashed on our young for 50 years ( think Hitler youth) and is constantly being spewed by our major news organizations as well as the dominant social media platforms. Vivid vividbleau

Sev “What this country needs is a strong, disciplined, intelligent and inspiring President and I don’t see anyone around so far who meets all those requirements.” What this country needs is a well informed virtuous pubic. Unfortunately we no longer have a working press, what we have are leftist propaganda machines. There is not a cultural institution in America that is not dominated by those who hate our constitution, hate America and despise concepts of individual liberty. I see where Chicago has instituted gender neutral bathrooms for the schools. When you have left reality and now inhabit “Alice’s Wonderland” I know we are in a really bad place. While we are arguing over whether a man who thinks he is a woman is a woman( which is absurd) the Chinese and Russians are educating their students in the sciences and launching hypersonic weapons. Meanwhile we are putting our military fate in the hands of those who were responsible for the disastrous Afghanistan withdrawal and are more worried about white rage. Our military has not won a war in over 76 years!! America is in deep trouble. You can only deny reality for awhile because when reality raises its ugly head it’s not going to be pretty. Vivid vividbleau

David P “They teach some narrative about slavery in the schools. The response here is irrational fear.” To oppose the teaching of “some narrative about slavery” and to support the teaching of the actual factual history of slavery is hardly motivated by an “irrational fear” . Vivid vividbleau

DP, the history of the last 100+ years speaks for itself. The current path is organically connected. As for the outmoded L/C/R model, where one might have sat in a hypothetical European Assembly 200 years ago when Monarchy defined the position of honour is irrelevant today. Monarchy shattered its credibility in 1914. The issue is not the excuse for pushing lawless oligarchy and subverting the BATNA of lawfulness leading to lawless ideological oligarchy and tyranny, the issue is to realise that this is afoot and deal with it, preserving the buttresses of constitutional democracy. KF kairosfocus

BA, Dune? KF kairosfocus

They teach Darwin in schools. The response here is reasoned and logical arguments. They teach some narrative about slavery in the schools. The response here is irrational fear. "The Left was never in favor of freedom of conscience in principle. They were in favor of freedom when it was useful for them. Now that it is useful for them to stifle freedom, they are in favor of that." How would you know, did you actually ask someone on the left how they feel about freedom? Or are you defining their positions for them? A big no-no for reasoned or logical debate. David P

PS: Plato's warning is ever apt:

It is not too hard to figure out that our civilisation is in deep trouble and is most likely headed for shipwreck. (And of course, that sort of concern is dismissed as “apocalyptic,” or neurotic pessimism that refuses to pause and smell the roses.) Plato’s Socrates spoke to this sort of situation, long since, in the ship of state parable in The Republic, Bk VI:

>>[Soc.] I perceive, I said, that you are vastly amused at having plunged me into such a hopeless discussion; but now hear the parable, and then you will be still more amused at the meagreness of my imagination: for the manner in which the best men are treated in their own States is so grievous that no single thing on earth is comparable to it; and therefore, if I am to plead their cause, I must have recourse to fiction, and put together a figure made up of many things, like the fabulous unions of goats and stags which are found in pictures. Imagine then a fleet or a ship in which there is a captain [–> often interpreted, ship’s owner] who is taller and stronger than any of the crew, but he is a little deaf and has a similar infirmity in sight, and his knowledge of navigation is not much better. [= The people own the community and in the mass are overwhelmingly strong, but are ill equipped on the whole to guide, guard and lead it] The sailors are quarrelling with one another about the steering – every one is of opinion that he has a right to steer [= selfish ambition to rule and dominate], though he has never learned the art of navigation and cannot tell who taught him or when he learned, and will further assert that it cannot be taught, and they are ready to cut in pieces any one who says the contrary. They throng about the captain, begging and praying him to commit the helm to them [–> kubernetes, steersman, from which both cybernetics and government come in English]; and if at any time they do not prevail, but others are preferred to them, they kill the others or throw them overboard [ = ruthless contest for domination of the community], and having first chained up the noble captain’s senses with drink or some narcotic drug [ = manipulation and befuddlement, cf. the parable of the cave], they mutiny and take possession of the ship and make free with the stores; thus, eating and drinking, they proceed on their voyage in such a manner as might be expected of them [–> Cf here Luke’s subtle case study in Ac 27]. Him who is their partisan and cleverly aids them in their plot for getting the ship out of the captain’s hands into their own whether by force or persuasion [–> Nihilistic will to power on the premise of might and manipulation making ‘right’ ‘truth’ ‘justice’ ‘rights’ etc], they compliment with the name of sailor, pilot, able seaman, and abuse the other sort of man, whom they call a good-for-nothing; but that the true pilot must pay attention to the year and seasons and sky and stars and winds, and whatever else belongs to his art, if he intends to be really qualified for the command of a ship, and that he must and will be the steerer, whether other people like or not-the possibility of this union of authority with the steerer’s art has never seriously entered into their thoughts or been made part of their calling. Now in vessels which are in a state of mutiny and by sailors who are mutineers, how will the true pilot be regarded? Will he not be called by them a prater, a star-gazer, a good-for-nothing? [Ad.] Of course, said Adeimantus. [Soc.] Then you will hardly need, I said, to hear the interpretation of the figure, which describes the true philosopher in his relation to the State [ --> here we see Plato's philosopher-king emerging]; for you understand already. [Ad.] Certainly. [Soc.] Then suppose you now take this parable to the gentleman who is surprised at finding that philosophers have no honour in their cities; explain it to him and try to convince him that their having honour would be far more extraordinary. [Ad.] I will. [Soc.] Say to him, that, in deeming the best votaries of philosophy to be useless to the rest of the world, he is right; but also tell him to attribute their uselessness to the fault of those who will not use them, and not to themselves. The pilot should not humbly beg the sailors to be commanded by him –that is not the order of nature; neither are ‘the wise to go to the doors of the rich’ –the ingenious author of this saying told a lie –but the truth is, that, when a man is ill, whether he be rich or poor, to the physician he must go, and he who wants to be governed, to him who is able to govern. [--> the issue of competence and character as qualifications to rule] The ruler who is good for anything ought not to beg his subjects to be ruled by him [ --> down this road lies the modern solution: a sound, well informed people will seek sound leaders, who will not need to manipulate or bribe or worse, and such a ruler will in turn be checked by the soundness of the people, cf. US DoI, 1776]; although the present governors of mankind are of a different stamp; they may be justly compared to the mutinous sailors, and the true helmsmen to those who are called by them good-for-nothings and star-gazers. [Ad.] Precisely so, he said. [Soc] For these reasons, and among men like these, philosophy, the noblest pursuit of all, is not likely to be much esteemed by those of the opposite faction [--> the sophists, the Demagogues, Alcibiades and co, etc]; not that the greatest and most lasting injury is done to her by her opponents, but by her own professing followers, the same of whom you suppose the accuser to say, that the greater number of them are arrant rogues, and the best are useless; in which opinion I agreed [--> even among the students of the sound state (here, political philosophy and likely history etc.), many are of unsound motivation and intent, so mere education is not enough, character transformation is critical]. [Ad.] Yes. [Soc.] And the reason why the good are useless has now been explained? [Ad.] True. [Soc.] Then shall we proceed to show that the corruption of the majority is also unavoidable [--> implies a need for a corruption-restraining minority providing proverbial salt and light, cf. Ac 27, as well as justifying a governing structure turning on separation of powers, checks and balances], and that this is not to be laid to the charge of philosophy any more than the other? [Ad.] By all means. [Soc.] And let us ask and answer in turn, first going back to the description of the gentle and noble nature.[ -- > note the character issue] Truth, as you will remember, was his leader, whom he followed always and in all things [ --> The spirit of truth as a marker]; failing in this, he was an impostor, and had no part or lot in true philosophy [--> the spirit of truth is a marker, for good or ill] . . . >>

(There is more than an echo of this in Acts 27, a real world case study. [Luke, a physician, was an educated Greek with a taste for subtle references.] This blog post, on soundness in policy, will also help)

kairosfocus

Seversky, the issue is not population size etc. It is, to recognise a pattern of anti-civilisational, dirty form colour-cultural revolution 4th gen war pushes complete with red guards and Reichstag fire narratives, driven by Frankfurt School derived culture form marxism for what it is: war by subversion and usurpation pursuing a clear design. Then, we must realise that such breaks down the cultural support for lawful government and constitutional democracy, undermining the BATNA of lawfulness that keeps us from falling under lawless ideological oligarchy and tyranny under whatever excuse of the day. If we don't arise, expose, stoutly resist by force of intellect and by countering the 4th gen war strategies, we will fall into a dark age, starting with a full orbed reign of terror. With nukes and other horrors in play. We are collectively insane, embarking on a voyage of ruinous folly. KF kairosfocus

Sev writes: "That leads towards ever larger, more centralized governments." Part of the genius of the constitutional order set up in 1789 is that it diffused power. It diffused power in the federal government by spreading it over three branches. It diffused power in the nation by leaving the vast majority of matters to the numerous states to deal with as each saw fit and allocating to the central government a scope of action limited to only a few narrowly enumerated topics. Progressives, beginning with Woodrow Wilson (and T. Roosevelt to some extent) hate that system. They chafe at the constitution's constraints on Washington's ability to impose a top-down-one-size-fits-all approach to all issues. We began to go off the rails when we allowed progressives to erode those constraints, starting slowing in the early 20th Century and picking up speed in the 1930s and afterward. Yes, as Sev, says, power has been concentrated in Washington. That is a problem. But it was not inevitable, and if we had hewed to the constitutional order it would not have happened. Barry Arrington

I think an issue we're still missing is that we are now faced with trying to govern, administer and provide for populations that are far larger than any in history. That leads towards ever larger, more centralized governments. The problem is that people find it difficult to identify with or trust bureaucracies that are perceived as remote, uncaring and corrupt. You can see this in the popular distrust of Washington or Brussels and probably Moscow or Beijing as well. I was watching a TV documentary about Chinese President Xi Jinping and one of the points it made was that he was heavily influenced by the disintegration of the old Soviet Union following the Gorbachev reforms. He was afraid that the same could happen in a sprawling country like China with its many diverse regional and ethnic groups, hence the crackdown on any kind of dissent. They also see the growing fragmentation of the US as a sign the country is weakening, something QAnon-like conspiracies are seeking to exploit. What this country needs is a strong, disciplined, intelligent and inspiring President and I don't see anyone around so far who meets all those requirements. Seversky

The problem for the left is that the Montagnards always turn on the Girondists. I say this often and wonder if anyone understands. It’s from the French Revolution. Basically the left always eats its own. I know my three children voted for Biden and Democrats. They are well educated and well meaning but not well informed. If my wife or I try to inform them, they will silence us. jerry

As always, brilliant post! KRock

I wrote an article a few years back on this very thing: https://ayearningforpublius.wordpress.com/2020/07/03/from-little-acorns-mighty-oak-trees-grow/ ayearningforpublius