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Chance Ratcliff’s video screen and the significance of search spaces

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In a comment in the oldies thread on Sunday evening, Chance Ratcliff raised a very instructive case study  for a search space that is well worth being headlined. Let us adjust a bit on the calc of the config space, and reflect:

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CR, 111, Oldies: >> An illustration might be of some help. For {{an 8-bit, 256 level}} gray scale

The proverbial needle in the haystack
The proverbial needle in the haystack

image of 1024 [ –> 2^10] pixels squared, there’s a search space of {{  2^20,  256-level elements giving 256^(2^20) = 4.26 *10^2,525,222}} possible configurations. This [strike . . . ] provides a vast landscape of images over which it is possible to traverse. For example, there are a nearly inestimable amount of configurations that could yield a recognizable rendering of Albert Einstein’s face. Yet it follows that this can only be a tiny proportion of all possible configurations, because where there may be a million ways to render Einstein’s face in a recognizable way, there must also be numerous ways to render any one of billions of other faces. And then we must also be able to render objects which are not faces at all, but any one of numerous other abstract or specific representations — cars, planes, trains, bicycles, motorcycles, cows, horses, donkeys, cats, dogs, planets, galaxies, chairs, tables, houses, skyscrapers, grass, trees, grapes, etc. — each in their personal identities (Saturn or Jupiter, Nero or Spot, Triumph or Harley, Ford Model T or Maserati MC12, etc). The images of all imaginable objects must be able to occupy the same configuration space of 1024×1024 pixels and 256 shades of gray in different configurations which must each differ substantially from Einstein.

Such is likely the case with proteins. After considering the noisy, non-folding sequences, specific biological functions must narrowly exist in the overall search space, because the space must also account for every type of possible function. I don’t think it’s reasonable to presume that ubiquitous functions such as ATP synthase, the ribosome, and the various polymerases are not required for “other” types of life. We don’t know such organisms can exist. It seems likely that, as with images of Einstein that are specific to a singular man, these biological subsystems are specific to a singular phenomenon in the known universe.

Even so, objections to specific functional necessities notwithstanding, traversing the noise is practically prohibitive. Just as generating random permutations in a 1024^2 gray scale image shouldn’t practically be expected to produce a recognizable image of Einstein, neither should random mutations effectively stumble on a functional sequence of amino acids, regardless of whether such a sequence could contribute to function in a constrained and complex operational system. >>

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Just so, the space of configs for 500 bits — think of a string of 500 coins in a row — must contain ALL 72 or so letter ASCII code sequences in English.  That is, just as the screen space has in it every conceivable image that can fit in 1024 * 1024 pixels as  a grayscale image, the 500-element binary string has in it every possible set of 72 letter English language sequences.

So, why don’t we use random walk scans to try to find what is out there, maybe with some sort of detector to lock-in a lucky hit?

Because that would predictably fruitlessly exhaust the atomic and temporal resources of the solar system, because the number of gibberish or noise states so vastly outnumbers the functional ones, that we confront the needle in the haystack search on steroids.

screen_shot
making screens of info the old fashioned way (by intelligent design)

That is the context in which we see why a threshold of 500 bits of complexity for a functionally specific organised entity allows us to identify that FSCO/I is a reliable, inductively backed up sign of design as best causal explanation.

CR’s screen example allows us to understand how even in cases where the is indeed a very large number of functional states, these will in turn be immersed in a vastly larger, unsearchable sea of gibberish or noise.

In simple terms, the number of snowy screen states vastly overwhelms the large but vastly smaller number of functional ones. So much so that we intuitively know that the best way to compose screen fulls of text or pictures or drawings, etc, is by intelligent effort.

In that context, let us look again at Dembski’s 2005 equation and its log-reduced, simplified derivative for practical purposes. First, Dembski 2005 (as was clipped and discussed in my always linked briefing note):

8 –> A more sophisticated (though sometimes controversial) metric has of course been given by Dembski, in a 2005 paper, as follows:

define ϕS as . . . the number of patterns for which [agent] S’s semiotic description of them is at least as simple as S’s semiotic description of [a pattern or target zone] T. [26] . . . . where M is the number of semiotic agents [S’s] that within a context of inquiry might also be witnessing events and N is the number of opportunities for such events to happen . . . . [where also] computer scientist Seth Lloyd has shown that 10^120 constitutes the maximal number of bit operations that the known, observable universe could have performed throughout its entire multi-billion year history.[31] . . . [Then] for any context of inquiry in which S might be endeavoring to determine whether an event that conforms to a pattern T happened by chance, M·N will be bounded above by 10^120. We thus define the specified complexity[χ] of T given [chance hypothesis] H [in bits] . . . as  [the negative base-2 log of the conditional probability P(T|H) multiplied by the number of similar cases ϕS(t) and also by the maximum number of binary search-events in our observed universe 10^120]

χ = – log2[10^120 ·ϕS(T)·P(T|H)].

9 –> When 1 >/= χ, the probability of the observed event in the target zone or a similar event is at least 1/2, so the available search resources of the observed cosmos across its estimated lifespan are in principle adequate for an observed event [E] in the target zone to credibly occur by chance. But if χ significantly exceeds 1 bit [i.e. it is past a threshold that as shown below, ranges from about 400 bits to 500 bits — i.e. configuration spaces of order 10^120 to 10^150], that becomes increasingly implausible. The only credibly known and reliably observed cause for events of this last class is intelligently directed contingency, i.e. design. Given the scope of the Abel plausibility bound for our solar system, where available probabilistic resources

 qΩs = 10^43 Planck-time quantum [not chemical — much, much slower] events per second x

10^17 s since the big bang  x

10^57 atom-level particles in the solar system

Or,  qΩs = 10^117 possible atomic-level events [–> and perhaps 10^87 “ionic reaction chemical time” events, of 10^-14 or so s],

  . . . that is unsurprising.

10 –> Thus, we have a Chi-metric for CSI/FSCI . . .  providing reasonable grounds for confidently inferring to design . . . [which relies] on finding a reasonable measure for the information in an item on a target or hot zone — aka island of function where the zone is set off observed function — and then comparing this to a reasonable threshold for sufficiently complex that non-foresighted mechanisms (such as blind watchmaker random walks from an initial start point and leading to trial and error), will be maximally unlikely to reach such a zone on the gamut of resources set by our observable cosmos.

This can be simplified, as is done in the IOSE, to give the Chi_500 metric:

χ = – log2[10^120 ·ϕS(T)·P(T|H)].

–> χ is “chi” and ϕ is “phi” . . . .

xxi: So, since 10^120 ~ 2^398, we may “boil down” the Dembski metric using some algebra — i.e. substituting and simplifying the three terms in order — as log(p*q*r) = log(p) + log(q ) + log(r) and log(1/p) = – log (p):

Chi = – log2(2^398 * D2 * p), in bits,  and where also D2 = ϕS(T)
Chi = Ip – (398 + K2), where now: log2 (D2 ) = K
That is, chi is a metric of bits from a zone of interest, beyond a threshold of “sufficient complexity to not plausibly be the result of chance,”  (398 + K2).  So,
(a) since (398 + K2) tends to at most 500 bits on the gamut of our solar system [[our practical universe, for chemical interactions! ( . . . if you want , 1,000 bits would be a limit for the observable cosmos)] and
(b) as we can define and introduce a dummy variable for specificity, S, where
(c) S = 1 or 0 according as the observed configuration, E, is on objective analysis specific to a narrow and independently describable zone of interest, T:

Chi =  Ip*S – 500, in bits beyond a “complex enough” threshold

This leads to a situation where this can be used to take advantage of the Durston metric (which reckons with function already so S = 1, and which takes into account redundancy):

xxii: So, we have some reason to suggest that if something, E, is based on specific information describable in a way that does not just quote E and requires at least 500 specific bits to store the specific information, then the most reasonable explanation for the cause of E is that it was designed. The metric may be directly applied to biological cases:

Using Durston’s Fits values — functionally specific bits — from his Table 1, to quantify I, so also  accepting functionality on specific sequences as showing specificity giving S = 1, we may apply the simplified Chi_500 metric of bits beyond the threshold:
RecA: 242 AA, 832 fits, Chi: 332 bits beyond
SecY: 342 AA, 688 fits, Chi: 188 bits beyond
Corona S2: 445 AA, 1285 fits, Chi: 785 bits beyond

 xxiii: And, this raises the controversial question that biological examples such as DNA — which in a living cell is much more complex than 500 bits — may be designed to carry out particular functions in the cell and the wider organism.

All of this in turn gives a context for the significance of CR’s discussion. END

Comments
Tell you what, franklin. Let's regroup and come back to some basic issues to see if we can make any progress in the discussion. Do you agree that there is a difference between necessary conditions and sufficient conditions? Do you acknowledge that if you you take all the individual molecules necessary for a functional cell and put them in a test tube or solution that they will not spontaneously come together by pure chemistry (using their mass and charge) to form a functional cell?Eric Anderson
April 25, 2013
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ba77: so franklin, as a reductive materialist, there is nothing at all mysterious as to how the Deinococcus genome can be put back together after being reduced to fragments?
No more 'mysterious' than how restriction enzymes function, or how 'mysterious' it is that DNA primers 'know' where to bind on ssDNA, or how a retrovirus incorporates its genome into the host cell, ect. That you don't know how these things function doesn't make it 'mysterious' to those who do understand these things.
ba77: Its that all just basic chemistry for you franklin?
Absolutely!franklin
April 25, 2013
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so franklin, as a reductive materialist, there is nothing at all mysterious as to how the Deinococcus genome can be put back together after being reduced to fragments?
The Darwinism contradiction of repair systems Excerpt: The bottom line is that repair mechanisms are incompatible with Darwinism in principle. Since sophisticated repair mechanisms do exist in the cell after all, then the thing to discard in the dilemma to avoid the contradiction necessarily is the Darwinist dogma. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-darwinism-contradiction-of-repair-systems/ Quantum Dots Spotlight DNA-Repair Proteins in Motion - March 2010 Excerpt: "How this system works is an important unanswered question in this field," he said. "It has to be able to identify very small mistakes in a 3-dimensional morass of gene strands. It's akin to spotting potholes on every street all over the country and getting them fixed before the next rush hour." Dr. Bennett Van Houten - of note: A bacterium has about 40 team members on its pothole crew. That allows its entire genome to be scanned for errors in 20 minutes, the typical doubling time.,, These smart machines can apparently also interact with other damage control teams if they cannot fix the problem on the spot. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100311123522.htm
Its that all just basic chemistry for you franklin? DNA repair machines ‘Fixing every pothole in America before the next rush hour’ is analogous to the traveling salesman problem. The traveling salesman problem is a NP-hard (read: very hard) problem in computer science; The problem involves finding the shortest possible route between cities, visiting each city only once. ‘Traveling salesman problems’ are notorious for keeping supercomputers busy for days. Since it is obvious that there is not a material CPU (central processing unit) in the DNA, or cell, busily computing answers to this monster logistic problem as to how to efficiently repair DNA, in a purely ‘material’ fashion, by crunching bits to make the calculation, then it is readily apparent that this monster ‘traveling salesman problem’, for DNA repair, is somehow being computed by ‘non-local’ quantum computation within the cell and/or within DNA. Indeed proteins and DNA have now been shown to have 'non-local' quantum entanglement/information in them that dwarf man's achievements thus far in the area of entangling particles for quantum computation.
Testing quantum entanglement in protein Excerpt: The authors remark that this reverses the previous orthodoxy, which held that quantum effects could not exist in biological systems because of the amount of noise in these systems.,,, Environmental noise here drives a persistent and cyclic generation of new entanglement.,,, In summary, the authors say that they have demonstrated that entanglement can recur even in a hot noisy environment. In biological systems this can be related to changes in the conformation of macromolecules. http://www.quantum-mind.co.uk/testing-quantum-entanglement-in-protein-c288.html Coherent Intrachain energy migration at room temperature - Elisabetta Collini and Gregory Scholes - University of Toronto - Science, 323, (2009), pp. 369-73 Excerpt: The authors conducted an experiment to observe quantum coherence dynamics in relation to energy transfer. The experiment, conducted at room temperature, examined chain conformations, such as those found in the proteins of living cells. Neighbouring molecules along the backbone of a protein chain were seen to have coherent energy transfer. Where this happens quantum decoherence (the underlying tendency to loss of coherence due to interaction with the environment) is able to be resisted, and the evolution of the system remains entangled as a single quantum state. http://www.scimednet.org/quantum-coherence-living-cells-and-protein/ Physicists Discover Quantum Law of Protein Folding – February 22, 2011 Quantum mechanics finally explains why protein folding depends on temperature in such a strange way. Excerpt: First, a little background on protein folding. Proteins are long chains of amino acids that become biologically active only when they fold into specific, highly complex shapes. The puzzle is how proteins do this so quickly when they have so many possible configurations to choose from. To put this in perspective, a relatively small protein of only 100 amino acids can take some 10^100 different configurations. If it tried these shapes at the rate of 100 billion a second, it would take longer than the age of the universe to find the correct one. Just how these molecules do the job in nanoseconds, nobody knows.,,, Their astonishing result is that this quantum transition model fits the folding curves of 15 different proteins and even explains the difference in folding and unfolding rates of the same proteins. That's a significant breakthrough. Luo and Lo's equations amount to the first universal laws of protein folding. That’s the equivalent in biology to something like the thermodynamic laws in physics. http://www.technologyreview.com/view/423087/physicists-discover-quantum-law-of-protein/ Quantum entanglement between the electron clouds of nucleic acids in DNA - Elisabeth Rieper, Janet Anders and Vlatko Vedral - February 2011 http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1006/1006.4053v2.pdf
In the following article, Dr. Hameroff expands on the quantum computation aspect of Rieper, Anders and Vedral paper:
Is DNA a quantum computer? Stuart Hameroff Excerpt: DNA could function as a quantum computers with superpositions of base pair dipoles acting as qubits. Entanglement among the qubits, necessary in quantum computation is accounted for through quantum coherence in the pi stack where the quantum information is shared,,, http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/dnaquantumcomputer1.htm
Moreover franklin, a beyond space time cause must be appealed to to explain quantum entanglement:
Looking Beyond Space and Time to Cope With Quantum Theory – (Oct. 28, 2012) Excerpt: To derive their inequality, which sets up a measurement of entanglement between four particles, the researchers considered what behaviours are possible for four particles that are connected by influences that stay hidden and that travel at some arbitrary finite speed. Mathematically (and mind-bogglingly), these constraints define an 80-dimensional object. The testable hidden influence inequality is the boundary of the shadow this 80-dimensional shape casts in 44 dimensions. The researchers showed that quantum predictions can lie outside this boundary, which means they are going against one of the assumptions. Outside the boundary, either the influences can’t stay hidden, or they must have infinite speed.,,, The remaining option is to accept that (quantum) influences must be infinitely fast,,, “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” says Nicolas Gisin, Professor at the University of Geneva, Switzerland,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121028142217.htm
thus franklin, of all the things that may be said of what is happening in the cell, 'it's chemistry all the way down', is not one of them!bornagain77
April 25, 2013
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'box: Franklin #24 #26, you miss the point completely, so I can only repeat what I already stated in post #17. I’m done communicating with you because you have nothing to add and have demonstrated a complete misunderstanding of the subject at hand.
I asked you to make your point since it apparently wasn't about the mechanism of action of RecA but I'm a bit surprised that you can't even admit you were mistaken about Kim, Coz, and RecA.franklin
April 25, 2013
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franklin, since you know for a fact that life is 'chemistry all the way down', and you got all those pesky biochemical details worked out as to how they can generate these extremely sophisticated algorithms controlling these molecules, perhaps you would like to toss your hat into the ring for the million dollar 'origin of life' prize:
Doctor evil - One Million Dollars - video clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l91ISfcuzDw The Origin-of-Life Prize ® The annuity consists of $50,000.00 (U.S.) per year for twenty consecutive years, totalling one million dollars in payments. http://lifeorigin.info/
My hunch franklin is that you will have a bit more trouble proving life can come from chemicals than you think:
Three Subsets of Sequence Complexity and Their Relevance to Biopolymeric Information - David L. Abel and Jack T. Trevors - Theoretical Biology & Medical Modelling, Vol. 2, 11 August 2005, page 8 "No man-made program comes close to the technical brilliance of even Mycoplasmal genetic algorithms. Mycoplasmas are the simplest known organism with the smallest known genome, to date. How was its genome and other living organisms' genomes programmed?" http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1742-4682-2-29.pdf First-Ever Blueprint of 'Minimal Cell' Is More Complex Than Expected - Nov. 2009 Excerpt: A network of research groups,, approached the bacterium at three different levels. One team of scientists described M. pneumoniae's transcriptome, identifying all the RNA molecules, or transcripts, produced from its DNA, under various environmental conditions. Another defined all the metabolic reactions that occurred in it, collectively known as its metabolome, under the same conditions. A third team identified every multi-protein complex the bacterium produced, thus characterising its proteome organisation. "At all three levels, we found M. pneumoniae was more complex than we expected," http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091126173027.htm To Model the Simplest Microbe in the World, You Need 128 Computers - July 2012 Excerpt: Mycoplasma genitalium has one of the smallest genomes of any free-living organism in the world, clocking in at a mere 525 genes. That's a fraction of the size of even another bacterium like E. coli, which has 4,288 genes.,,, The bioengineers, led by Stanford's Markus Covert, succeeded in modeling the bacterium, and published their work last week in the journal Cell. What's fascinating is how much horsepower they needed to partially simulate this simple organism. It took a cluster of 128 computers running for 9 to 10 hours to actually generate the data on the 25 categories of molecules that are involved in the cell's lifecycle processes.,,, ,,the depth and breadth of cellular complexity has turned out to be nearly unbelievable, and difficult to manage, even given Moore's Law. The M. genitalium model required 28 subsystems to be individually modeled and integrated, and many critics of the work have been complaining on Twitter that's only a fraction of what will eventually be required to consider the simulation realistic.,,, http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/07/to-model-the-simplest-microbe-in-the-world-you-need-128-computers/260198/ Meet Mycoplasma, a parasitic bare-bones bacterium, with 484 genes - schematic representation of integrated enzyme cycles http://www.pnas.org/content/103/2/425/F3.large.jpg “a one-celled bacterium, e. coli, is estimated to contain the equivalent of 100 million pages of Encyclopedia Britannica. Expressed in information in science jargon, this would be the same as 10^12 bits of information. In comparison, the total writings from classical Greek Civilization is only 10^9 bits, and the largest libraries in the world – The British Museum, Oxford Bodleian Library, New York Public Library, Harvard Widenier Library, and the Moscow Lenin Library – have about 10 million volumes or 10^12 bits.” – R. C. Wysong 'The information content of a simple cell has been estimated as around 10^12 bits, comparable to about a hundred million pages of the Encyclopedia Britannica." Carl Sagan, "Life" in Encyclopedia Britannica: Macropaedia (1974 ed.), pp. 893-894 The Theist holds the Intellectual High-Ground - March 2011 Excerpt: To get a range on the enormous challenges involved in bridging the gaping chasm between non-life and life, consider the following: “The difference between a mixture of simple chemicals and a bacterium, is much more profound than the gulf between a bacterium and an elephant.” (Dr. Robert Shapiro, Professor Emeritus of Chemistry, NYU)
So where did all that 100 million pages of information in a 'simple bacteria' (as measure from the thermodynamic perspective) come from franklin?
Is There Evidence of Something Beyond Nature? - John Lennox - semiotic information - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6rd4HEdffw
I have a solid clue for you franklin as to where all that information came from:
John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Music:
Tenth Avenue North - You Are More http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwtcwQwgdsA
bornagain77
April 25, 2013
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Franklin #24 #26, you miss the point completely, so I can only repeat what I already stated in post #17. I'm done communicating with you because you have nothing to add and have demonstrated a complete misunderstanding of the subject at hand.Box
April 25, 2013
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eric: If you did, you would realize that there are design principles at work, algorithms for construction, protocols that control your precious particles with mass and charge.
Ok here is your chance, eric, explain to me how these algorithms and construction protocols work. I do expect some detail concerning their interaction with my 'precious particles with mass and charge'. So far you've avoided backing up any of your assertions (e.g., simplest life form where you stated you know what the minimal requirements are) i so hope you don't disappoint this time as well.franklin
April 25, 2013
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box, here is another example of a trio of clueless researchers regarding RecA:
Cell. 2009 Mar 20;136(6):1044-55. doi: 10.1016/j.cell.2009.01.018. Recombination and replication in DNA repair of heavily irradiated Deinococcus radiodurans. Slade D, Lindner AB, Paul G, Radman M. Source Université Paris Descartes, Faculté de Médecine, INSERM U571, Paris, France. Abstract Deinococcus radiodurans' extreme resistance to ionizing radiation, desiccation, and DNA-damaging chemicals involves a robust DNA repair that reassembles its shattered genome. The repair process requires diploidy and commences with an extensive exonucleolytic erosion of DNA fragments. Liberated single-stranded overhangs prime strand elongation on overlapping fragments and the elongated complementary strands reestablish chromosomal contiguity by annealing. We explored the interdependence of the DNA recombination and replication processes in the reconstitution of the D. radiodurans genome disintegrated by ionizing radiation. The priming of extensive DNA repair synthesis involves RecA and RadA proteins. DNA polymerase III is essential for the initiation of repair synthesis, whereas efficient elongation requires DNA polymerases I and III. Inactivation of both polymerases leads to degradation of DNA fragments and rapid cell death. The present in vivo characterization of key recombination and replication processes dissects the mechanism of DNA repair in heavily irradiated D. radiodurans.
franklin
April 25, 2013
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franklin @19:
Can you name one process that is going on in the cell that does not involve molecules that have mass and charge?
LOL! Talk about missing the whole issue. Do yourself a favor, franklin, and stop digging the hole you're in. Everything around you involves molecules that have mass and charge. Molecules having mass and charge does not explain any functional, complex, specified structure. Not at the macro level and not at the micro level. And please stop it with your silly assertions that you understand so much about biochemistry. You obviously have no clue how cellular processes work. If you did, you would realize that there are design principles at work, algorithms for construction, protocols that control your precious particles with mass and charge. It is not chemistry all the way down. Take some time to actually think through the issues. At that point your "explanations" based on mass and charge will quickly fade away and you will start to actually home in on some interesting questions.Eric Anderson
April 25, 2013
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box: Franklin, why the quotation marks? You should know very well that you are not quoting me. Moreover your paraphrasing of my ‘question’ misses the point. Probably you refer to my following remark:
no I was referring to a remark you made in another thread re:RecA and how does it 'know' how to stitch the genome together.
box:And this was not a question franklin, because I know it to be a mystery.
you know this how? Did you think I was making it up when I stated that it is known where and how RecA binds ssDNA, dsDNA, ATP, and how the protein interacts with the DNA to put the genome together? This is all known and published research and it is all chemistry. There certainly is more ongoing research with this protein but there is a pretty fair body of literature which elevates it quite above the level of 'mysterious' except, evidently, to you and likely Eric as well.
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2002 Jun 11;99(12):7917-21. Epub 2002 Jun 4. The RecA proteins of Deinococcus radiodurans and Escherichia coli promote DNA strand exchange via inverse pathways. Kim JI, Cox MM. Source Department of Biochemistry, University of Wisconsin, 433 Babcock Drive, Madison, WI 53706-1544, USA. Abstract The RecA protein of Escherichia coli, and all filament-forming homologues identified to date, promote DNA strand exchange by a common, ordered pathway. A filament is first formed on single-stranded DNA, followed by uptake of the duplex substrate. These proteins are thereby targeted to single-strand gaps and tails where recombinational DNA repair is required. The observed course of DNA strand exchange promoted by the RecA protein from the extremely radioresistant bacterium Deinococcus radiodurans is the exact inverse of this established pathway. This reaction lies at the heart of a remarkably efficient system for the repair of DNA damage.
yup, sure seems like Kim and Cox think it is a big mystery and possibly not even involved in the process at all...oh wait that would be wrong!franklin
April 25, 2013
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Franklin #22: so when you ask “how does RecA ‘know’ how to stitch the genome back together” you’re not asking about the mechanism the protein uses to accomplish this task? What is it then that you are actually asking?
Franklin, why the quotation marks? You should know very well that you are not quoting me. Moreover your paraphrasing of my ‘question’ misses the point. Probably you refer to my following remark:
Box: #4: I’m talking about that magical protein that somehow ‘knows’ the correct sequence of the bacterial DNA and stitches the shattered fragments back together.
And this was not a question franklin, because I know it to be a mystery. Cox and Jong-Il Kim are quoted to be not even sure if RecA proteins play a role in this mysterious process. So please don’t you ‘explain’ it to me with chemistry which ‘really isn’t all that hard to understand provided you have some foundation in biochemical processes.’Box
April 25, 2013
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box: Well, this explains a lot. To be clear, how things work on the biochemical level is not the issue at all
so when you ask "how does RecA 'know' how to stitch the genome back together" you're not asking about the mechanism the protein uses to accomplish this task? What is it then that you are actually asking?
box: May I suggest to you that you change your tone and step up your efforts for understanding if you wish to be taken seriously.
What have I misunderstood? Do you think eric is going to be able to describe a cellular process that does not involve biochemistry? Can you meet that task?franklin
April 25, 2013
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Franklin #19: ‘Problems? I only see confusion and bewilderment on your part in wondering how any of these things work on a biochemical level.
Well, this explains a lot. To be clear, how things work on the biochemical level is not the issue at all. May I suggest to you that you change your tone and step up your efforts for understanding if you wish to be taken seriously.Box
April 25, 2013
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franklin, I take it that you are a atheist who believes in reductive materialism, in that you believe that everything, all information, all life, and all consciousness, is reducible to a material basis. But I have a little problem with your reductive materialistic scenario. You see franklin it turns out that recent advances in quantum theory have allowed us to reduce material particles to information. Here are my references for the claim that "energy and mass both reduce to information":
Ions have been teleported successfully for the first time by two independent research groups Excerpt: In fact, copying isn’t quite the right word for it. In order to reproduce the quantum state of one atom in a second atom, the original has to be destroyed. This is unavoidable – it is enforced by the laws of quantum mechanics, which stipulate that you can’t ‘clone’ a quantum state. In principle, however, the ‘copy’ can be indistinguishable from the original (that was destroyed),,, http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/Issues/2004/October/beammeup.asp Atom takes a quantum leap – 2009 Excerpt: Ytterbium ions have been ‘teleported’ over a distance of a metre.,,, “What you’re moving is information, not the actual atoms,” says Chris Monroe, from the Joint Quantum Institute at the University of Maryland in College Park and an author of the paper. But as two particles of the same type differ only in their quantum states, the transfer of quantum information is equivalent to moving the first particle to the location of the second. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2171769/posts How Teleportation Will Work - Excerpt: In 1993, the idea of teleportation moved out of the realm of science fiction and into the world of theoretical possibility. It was then that physicist Charles Bennett and a team of researchers at IBM confirmed that quantum teleportation was possible, but only if the original object being teleported was destroyed. — As predicted, the original photon no longer existed once the replica was made. http://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/everyday-myths/teleportation1.htm Quantum Teleportation – IBM Research Page Excerpt: “it would destroy the original (photon) in the process,,” http://researcher.ibm.com/view_project.php?id=2862 Unconditional Quantum Teleportation – abstract Excerpt: This is the first realization of unconditional quantum teleportation where every state entering the device is actually teleported,, http://www.sciencemag.org/content/282/5389/706.abstract
It is also very interesting to note that the quantum state of a photon is actually defined as 'infinite information' in its uncollapsed quantum wave state:
Quantum Computing - Stanford Encyclopedia Excerpt: Theoretically, a single qubit can store an infinite amount of information, yet when measured (and thus collapsing the Quantum Wave state) it yields only the classical result (0 or 1),,, http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-quantcomp/#2.1 Explaining Information Transfer in Quantum Teleportation: Armond Duwell †‡ University of Pittsburgh Excerpt: In contrast to a classical bit, the description of a (photon) qubit requires an infinite amount of information. The amount of information is infinite because two real numbers are required in the expansion of the state vector of a two state quantum system (Jozsa 1997, 1) --- Concept 2. is used by Bennett, et al. Recall that they infer that since an infinite amount of information is required to specify a (photon) qubit, an infinite amount of information must be transferred to teleport.
As well franklin, besides reducing atoms and photons to information, advances in quantum theory have shown that encoded ‘classical’ information such as what we find encoded in computer programs, and yes, as we find encoded in DNA, is a subset of conserved ‘non-local' (beyond space and time) quantum entanglement/information by the following method:
Quantum knowledge cools computers: New understanding of entropy – June 2011 Excerpt: No heat, even a cooling effect; In the case of perfect classical knowledge of a computer memory (zero entropy), deletion of the data requires in theory no energy at all. The researchers prove that “more than complete knowledge” from quantum entanglement with the memory (negative entropy) leads to deletion of the data being accompanied by removal of heat from the computer and its release as usable energy. This is the physical meaning of negative entropy. Renner emphasizes, however, “This doesn’t mean that we can develop a perpetual motion machine.” The data can only be deleted once, so there is no possibility to continue to generate energy. The process also destroys the entanglement, and it would take an input of energy to reset the system to its starting state. The equations are consistent with what’s known as the second law of thermodynamics: the idea that the entropy of the universe can never decrease. Vedral says “We’re working on the edge of the second law. If you go any further, you will break it.” http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110601134300.htm
All this is simply not good for a died in the wool reductive materialists like you franklin! Moreover franklin, as if the preceding was not bad enough for your preferred atheistic worldview, due to advances in quantum theory the argument for God from consciousness can now be framed like this:
1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a 'epi-phenomena' (emergent property) of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a 'epi-phenomena' (emergent property) of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no particularly special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. Four intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Leggett’s Inequalities, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice; Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries; Quantum Zeno effect) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G_Fi50ljF5w_XyJHfmSIZsOcPFhgoAZ3PRc_ktY8cFo/edit The Galileo Affair and Life/Consciousness as the true “Center of the Universe” https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BHAcvrc913SgnPcDohwkPnN4kMJ9EDX-JJSkjc4AXmA/edit
bornagain77
April 25, 2013
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box: Franklin #15 #16, you haven’t even begun to address the problems presented in my posts.
'Problems? I only see confusion and bewilderment on your part in wondering how any of these things work on a biochemical level.
eric: Clearly having little understanding of what actually goes on in the cell, franklin proposes that the answers lie in the fact that we are dealing with molecules that have mass and charge.
Can you name one process that is going on in the cell that does not involve molecules that have mass and charge? Or for that matter anything in the activity in the cell which does not involve chemistry/biochemistry?
eric: How do the amino acids come together to form the correct amino acid chain? They are molecules! How does the chain properly fold into a functional protein? It’s a molecule!>/blockquote> eric, it is not just that they are molecules it is what the physical and chemical environment these molecules posses that dictate what they can and cannot react with in the cell and the organisms. It is readily apparent to all reading that you have no grasp for how any biochemical process proceeds within the cell. You should really try and fix that deficiency if you want to speak to the details of anything at all that goes on within the cell. From someone who does have a reasonable understanding of biochemical process your posts have a great 'face palming' impact for me or anyone with the barest understanding of what is attempted to being discussed. I doubt you can even spot the ridiculous, and ignorant, nature of, what you thought was a stunning insight, on why a organism that lived a million years wouldn't evolve into another organism. I about peed my pants reading that line of thought!
franklin
April 25, 2013
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This is truly painful to watch. franklin's answer to everything the past couple of days has been that we are dealing with particles that have "mass and charge." It's chemistry all the way down, don't ya know. Clearly having little understanding of what actually goes on in the cell, franklin proposes that the answers lie in the fact that we are dealing with molecules that have mass and charge. Given that this is true of virtually all molecules, the "explanation" of mass and charge is no different from saying that something is a molecule. To all the interesting questions, franklin has the answer: How do the amino acids come together to form the correct amino acid chain? They are molecules! How does the chain properly fold into a functional protein? It's a molecule! How do the DNA strands keep from getting tangled in the cell? The strands are made up of molecules! How does an enzyme know how (and when and where) to properly splice DNA? It's a molecule! Yes, indeed, how do we get all the amazing structures we have in biology? Molecules! With mass and charge! Talk about a Johnny-One-Note. Unfortunately, a moment's reflection for the individual of average intelligence is adequate to teach us that the note being incessantly pounded out is the wrong note. When researchers ask perfectly reasonable questions, like how DNA copying, splicing, and winding can occur with fidelity in the cell, to every question we see franklin in the front row, with his hand raised, shouting "Ooh, ooh, I know, I know! They are molecules! They have mass and charge!" The proper response is not to indulge his delusion but to reply "Yes, yes, we know they are molecules and that they have mass and charge. Now please go sit in the back corner quietly, while we actually take a close look at the real issues."Eric Anderson
April 25, 2013
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Franklin #15 #16, you haven't even begun to address the problems presented in my posts.Box
April 25, 2013
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box: I will add one more: ‘how does the cell keep the DNA strands from getting hopelessly tangled’?
Hopefully you recognize that the thread analogy is fairly limited in that threads do not have charged sections which cause threads to 'stick' together. Here is another limited analogy for you: why can't you get two south poles of a magnet to stick together yet a north and south pole can stick together?franklin
April 25, 2013
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box: Surely you are mistaken.
Not at all. The article, while not outling the complete mechanistic details (theh are available elsewhere) provides keen insight into how it works. then mention of six to ten copies of the genome, the RecA protein activity in finding overlapping sequences and the ability to stitch together at least one complete copy of the genome in the 'salvage' operation. Following that a quick search (about 30 sec) located the mechanistic details of how the protein has several active sites for binding different things, i.e., ssDNA, dsDNA, an ATP hydrolysis site, ect. Fairly complete descriptions are readily available on how the process proceeds. It certainly is not 'magic' and the chemistry really isn't all that hard to understand provided you have some foundation in biochemical processes. Are you confused about the other questions asked or do you have a firm understanding of how hemoglobin 'knows' to bind oxygen and when to unload pxygen or how PCR primers work (let alone the entire PCR process in use in labs all over the world?franklin
April 25, 2013
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here are few extra notes on epigenetics that are very antagonistic to the materialistic perspective: It is found that even our thoughts and feelings can 'epigenetically' control the gene expression of our bodies:
Genie In Your Genes - video http://www.genieinyourgenes.com/ggtrailer.html main website excerpt: There are over 100 genes in your body that are activated by your thoughts, feelings and experiences http://www.genieinyourgenes.com/ Anxiety May Shorten Your Cell Life - July 12, 2012 Excerpt: These studies had the advantage of large data sets involving thousands of participants. If the correlations remain robust in similar studies, it would indicate that mental states and lifestyle choices can produce epigenetic effects on our genes. http://crev.info/2012/07/anxiety-may-shorten-your-cell-life/
a few more notes:
The Mysterious Epigenome. What lies beyond DNA - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpXs8uShFMo Non-Random and Targeted Mutations (Epigentics to the level of DNA) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTChu5vX1VI
,,, And then there is the fact that the entire concept of a 'gene' as a fundamental unit of inheritance is being swallowed up by the sheer complexity of what is being revealed for what is termed 'alternative splicing':
The Extreme Complexity Of Genes - Dr. Raymond G. Bohlin - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/8593991/ Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism - Alex Williams Excerpt: Exons are not gene-specific but are modules that can be joined to many different RNA transcripts. One exon (i.e. a protein-making portion of one gene) can be used in combination with up to 33 different genes located on as many as 14 different chromosomes. This means that one exon can specify one part shared in common by many different proteins. http://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j21_3/j21_3_111-117.pdf
If that wasn't bad enough for Darwinists, the 'top down' alternative splicing codes for chimps and humans are found to be vastly different,,
Evolution by Splicing – Comparing gene transcripts from different species reveals surprising splicing diversity. – Ruth Williams – December 20, 2012 Excerpt: A major question in vertebrate evolutionary biology is “how do physical and behavioral differences arise if we have a very similar set of genes to that of the mouse, chicken, or frog?”,,, A commonly discussed mechanism was variable levels of gene expression, but both Blencowe and Chris Burge,,, found that gene expression is relatively conserved among species. On the other hand, the papers show that most alternative splicing events differ widely between even closely related species. “The alternative splicing patterns are very different even between humans and chimpanzees,” said Blencowe.,,, http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view%2FarticleNo%2F33782%2Ftitle%2FEvolution-by-Splicing%2F
Moreover the genetic similarity for chimps and humans is found, now that more data is coming in, to be nowhere near the 99% mark that Darwinists had originally misled people to believe:
Comprehensive Analysis of Chimpanzee and Human Chromosomes Reveals Average DNA Similarity of 70% - by Jeffrey P. Tomkins - February 20, 2013 Excerpt: For the chimp autosomes, the amount of optimally aligned DNA sequence provided similarities between 66 and 76%, depending on the chromosome. In general, the smaller and more gene-dense the chromosomes, the higher the DNA similarity—although there were several notable exceptions defying this trend. Only 69% of the chimpanzee X chromosome was similar to human and only 43% of the Y chromosome. Genome-wide, only 70% of the chimpanzee DNA was similar to human under the most optimal sequence-slice conditions. While, chimpanzees and humans share many localized protein-coding regions of high similarity, the overall extreme discontinuity between the two genomes defies evolutionary timescales and dogmatic presuppositions about a common ancestor. http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/arj/v6/n1/human-chimp-chromosome
bornagain77
April 25, 2013
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Although I expect most of you would know this man, I've only come across his name, Rupert Sheldrake, a few times - but that's all, until today. However, I came across this video just now: http://www.whydontyoutrythis.com/2013/03/3-censored-ted-talks-the-establishment-does-not-want-you-to-see.html#sthash.QWrR8939.dpbs Also, I thought this quote, noteworthy, and would appeal to this happy brotherhood: “The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence.”?Nikola TeslaAxel
April 25, 2013
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Bornagain77 #11: There is simply no coherent answer as to how this is possible from a materialistic perspective. Anyone, franklin especially included, who argues otherwise is being severely disingenuous.
Bornagain77, once more I have to say that I could not agree more. The utter impossibility of a concept from a materialistic perspective hit me once more when I read about gene regulation by nuclesomes. DNA strands are partially wrapped around many nucleosomes - containing of histones. The position and shape of these histones are a determining factor of gene expression! Some parts of the DNA strands are simply inaccessible for expression because of its spatial position at the spools. What hit me is the realization that this cannot be framed mechanically!
Stephen L Talbott: Nucleosomes will sometimes move — or be moved (the distinction between actor and acted upon is obscured in the living cell) — rhythmically back and forth between alternative positions in order to enable multiple transcription passes over a gene. (…) The histone spool of nucleosomes, for example, is not some rigid thing. It would be far better to think of its “substance,” “surface,” “contact points,” and “physical interactions” as forms assumed by mutually interpenetrating forces in intricate and varied play. (…) The nucleosome is rather like a maestro directing the genetic orchestra, except that the direction is itself orchestrated by the surrounding cellular audience in conversation with the instrumentalists. (…) After a few histone tail modifications were found to be rather distinctly associated with active or repressed genes, the forlorn hope arose that we would discover a precise, combinatorial “histone code.” It would provide a kind of fixed, digital key enabling us to predict the consequences of any arrangement of modifications. But this was to ignore the nearly infinite variety of all those other factors that blend their voices in concert with the histone modifications. In the plastic organism, what goes on at the local level is shaped and guided by a larger, coherent context. As Shelley Berger of Philadelphia’s Wistar Institute observes: ”Although [histone] modifications were initially thought to be a simple code, a more likely model is of a sophisticated, nuanced chromatin “language” in which different combinations of basic building blocks yield dynamic functional outcomes. (…) Each histone tail modification reshapes the physical and electrical structure of the local chromatin, shifting the pattern of interactions among nucleosome, DNA, and associated protein factors. To picture this situation concretely is immediately to realize that it cannot be captured in purely digital terms. (…) Berger envisions histone modifications as participating in “an intricate ‘dance’ of associations.” (…) Histones can even be removed from a spool altogether, leaving it “incomplete.” And certain proteins can slide spools along the DNA, changing their position. As we have seen already, a shift of position by as little as two or three base pairs can make the difference between gene activation or repression, as can changes in the rotational orientation of the DNA on the face of the histone spool. And the tails — no doubt depending at least in part on the various modifications and protein associations mentioned earlier — can thread themselves through the encircling double helix, perhaps either loosening it from the spool or holding it more firmly in place.
And this is just a small part of the all important regulation of chemicals in the cell. Like Behe stated: 'The essence of cellular life is regulation: The cell controls how much and what kinds of chemicals it makes; when it loses control, it dies.'Box
April 25, 2013
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Box, there's this also:
What Do Organisms Mean? Stephen L. Talbott - Winter 2011 Excerpt: Harvard biologist Richard Lewontin once described how you can excise the developing limb bud from an amphibian embryo, shake the cells loose from each other, allow them to reaggregate into a random lump, and then replace the lump in the embryo. A normal leg develops. Somehow the form of the limb as a whole is the ruling factor, redefining the parts according to the larger pattern. Lewontin went on to remark: "Unlike a machine whose totality is created by the juxtaposition of bits and pieces with different functions and properties, the bits and pieces of a developing organism seem to come into existence as a consequence of their spatial position at critical moments in the embryo’s development. Such an object is less like a machine than it is like a language whose elements ... take unique meaning from their context.[3]",,, http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/what-do-organisms-mean The face of a frog: Time-lapse video reveals never-before-seen bioelectric pattern - July 2011 Excerpt: For the first time, Tufts University biologists have reported that bioelectrical signals are necessary for normal head and facial formation in an organism and have captured that process in a time-lapse video that reveals never-before-seen patterns of visible bioelectrical signals outlining where eyes, nose, mouth, and other features will appear in an embryonic tadpole.,,, "When a frog embryo is just developing, before it gets a face, a pattern for that face lights up on the surface of the embryo,",,, "We believe this is the first time such patterning has been reported for an entire structure, not just for a single organ. I would never have predicted anything like it. It's a jaw dropper.",,, http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-07-frog-time-lapse-video-reveals-never-before-seen.html An Electric Face: A Rendering Worth a Thousand Falsifications - September 2011 Excerpt: The video suggests that bioelectric signals presage the morphological development of the face. It also, in an instant, gives a peak at the phenomenal processes at work in biology. As the lead researcher said, “It’s a jaw dropper.” http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2011/09/electric-face-rendering-worth-thousand.html
There is simply no coherent answer as to how this is possible from a materialistic perspective. Anyone, franklin especially included, who argues otherwise is being severely disingenuous:
With a Startling Candor, Oxford Scientist Admits a Gaping Hole in Evolutionary Theory - November 2011 Excerpt: As of now, we have no good theory of how to read [genetic] networks, how to model them mathematically or how one network meshes with another; worse, we have no obvious experimental lines of investigation for studying these areas. There is a great deal for systems biology to do in order to produce a full explanation of how genotypes generate phenotypes,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/11/with_a_startling_candor_oxford052821.html
bornagain77
April 25, 2013
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Franklin #7: How does a restriction enzyme ‘know’ where to cut DNA? (...) How do DNA primers know where to bond on a stand of DNA? etc. etc.
Intriguing questions! I will add one more: ‘how does the cell keep the DNA strands from getting hopelessly tangled’? Stephen L Talbott: “All we can say currently is that we know some of the players addressing the problem. For example, there are enzymes called “topoisomerases” whose task is to help manage the spatial organization of chromosomes. Demonstrating a spatial insight and dexterity that might amaze those of us who have struggled to sort out tangled masses of thread, these enzymes manage to make just the right local cuts to the strands in order to relieve strain, allow necessary movement of genes or regions of the chromosome, and prevent a hopeless mass of knots. Some topoisomerases cut just one strand of the double helix, allow it to wind or unwind around the other strand, and then reconnect the severed ends. This alters the supercoiling of the DNA. Other topoisomerases cut both strands, pass a loop of the chromosome through the gap thus created, and then seal the gap again. (Imagine trying this with miles of string crammed into a tennis ball!)“.
Franklin #7: Did you read the article? It does contain the answer to how the protein ‘knows’ how to stitch the genome back together.
Surely you are mistaken. There is nothing in the article that even hints at an answer; only vague speculations about elements that could be involved in an unknown mechanism - an unknown repair mechanism that presupposes knowledge of the correct DNA sequence. May I suggest to you that you reread the article on world’s toughest bacterium.Box
April 25, 2013
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Box thanks for reminding me of that 'magical' protein. I will definitely have to put it close to the Durston paper.bornagain77
April 24, 2013
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Box @4, you are very kind! You're welcome :)Chance Ratcliff
April 24, 2013
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box: There is this RecA protein again! I’m talking about that magical protein that somehow ‘knows’ the correct sequence of the bacterial DNA and stitches the shattered fragments back together.
How does a restriction enzyme 'know' where to cut DNA? How does hemoglobin 'know' when to load oxygen and when to unload oxygen? How do DNA primers know where to bond on a stand of DNA? ect. ect. Did you read the article? It does contain the answer to how the protein 'knows' how to stitch the genome back togetherfranklin
April 24, 2013
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Axel #5, you are absolutely right of course. I guess that my puzzlement about these phenomenons just shows my unfamiliarity with basic chemistry ;)Box
April 24, 2013
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'I’m talking about that magical protein that somehow ‘knows’ the correct sequence of the bacterial DNA and stitches the shattered fragments back together.' Outside the Consensus, cogitation is just one of the lesser known skills of brute matter, Box. You miss an awful of good stuff, being at the margins. But what am I saying? Aren't they, however informally, members of an animist cult, as one of the editors of Nature once suggested, I believe.Axel
April 24, 2013
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CR thanks for the excellent image space example. It is intuitive indeed! --- Bornagain77 #2, you mention Durston’s new paper which is about the RecA protein. Remember the world’s toughest bacterium - Deinococcus radiodurans? Excerpt: "When subjected to high levels of radiation, the Deinococcus genome is reduced to fragments," they write in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. "RecA proteins may play role in finding overlapping fragments and splicing them together." There is this RecA protein again! I'm talking about that magical protein that somehow 'knows' the correct sequence of the bacterial DNA and stitches the shattered fragments back together.Box
April 24, 2013
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