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Child Rape in a Materialist World

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Here are the facts concerning the Roman Polanski case:  Polanski gave a Quaalude to a 13 year-old child; instructed her to get naked and enter a Jacuzzi; refused to take her home when she asked; performed oral sex on her as she asked him to stop; raped her (no, not the “statutory” kind, the “forcible” kind); and sodomized her.  In a plea bargain Polanski pled to unlawful sex with a minor.

As is common knowledge, Polanski has his defenders because he has made some terrific movies.  For example, critic Tom Shales says:  “There is, apparently, more to this crime than it would seem, and it may sound like a hollow defense, but in Hollywood I am not sure a 13-year-old is really a 13-year-old.”

Here’s today’s question:  “Is it wrong in all times and at all places (even Hollywood) for a 44 year-old man to drug, rape and sodomize a 13 year-old girl?”

For our materialist friends who answer “yes” to the question (as I hope you will), I have a follow-up question:  “How can you know that you are right and Polanski’s defenders are wrong?”

 UPDATE:

At first the materialists dodged my second (and much more important) question.  But then a brave soul who calls himself “camanintx” took up for the materialists the gauntlet I had thrown down, and we had the following exchange:

 

Barry:  How can you know that you are right and Polanski’s defenders are wrong?”

 

camanintx:  Because the society in which I and Polanski (at the time) live in define it as such. Had Polanski lived in 6th century Arabia, he probably would have been treated differently, no?

 

Barry:   Let’s assume for the sake of argument that drugging, raping and sodomizing a young girl was considered moral behavior in Arabia between the years 501 and 600 AD [I by no means concede that, but will accept it arguendo].  On the basis of your response, camanintx, I assume you would say that the fact that it was considered moral behavior in the society in which it occurred, is in fact determinative of the morality of the behavior, and therefore if Polanski had done what he did in that place and time it would have been moral. Is that what you are saying?

 camanintx:  Since morality is a subjective term, yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

 Thank you, camanintx, for that enlightening exchange.  Nietzsche would have been very proud of you for not flinching away from the nihilistic conclusions compelled by your premises.  You have truly gone “beyond good and evil.”  Roman Polanski was not immoral, must unlucky.  Cruel fate dictated that by the merest whim of fickle chance he happened to live in a society that, for whatever reason, condemns drugging, raping and sodomizing young girls.  If he had lived in a different society, what he did would not have been wrong.  Fortunately for the rest of us, your views remain in the minority (at least for now), and for that reason moral progress remains possible. 

 I invite our readers to evaluate camanintx’s views in light of our own very recent history in this country.  I grew up in the 1960’s in a state of the old Confederacy, and as I was growing up I heard about the condition of black people in earlier times.  Even as late as 1955, it was taken for granted in the southern United States that black people are inferior to white people and therefore have no claim to equal rights under the law.  They were turned away from the polls, made to sit in the back of public busses, and segregated into inferior schools, among a host of other indignities too numerous to catalogue here.  Now, the majority of the people in the South at the time considered this state of affairs to be altogether moral. 

 Think about that.  Under camanintx’s view the “is” of a society defines the “ought” of that society.  I assume camanintx is not a racist and that he personally believes that the conditions under which black people were forced to live in say, 1955 Alabama, were intolerable.  But if he had lived in Alabama in 1955 on what grounds could he have pressed for a change to the status quo?  He would have been in a quandary, because his premises compel him to affirm – as he did in response to my query – that the present state of affairs for a society DEFINES morality in that society. 

 Therefore, according to camanintx, if he had lived in Alabama in 1955, his logic would have compelled him to affirm that racial hatred and intolerance is fine and dandy, morally speaking.  The only thing he could have said is, “While I cannot say racial hatred and intolerance is in any sense “immoral,” I personally do not prefer it, and therefore we should change our laws and behavior to eliminate those blights on our land.”  To which, the all-too-easy response from a southern racist would have been:  “I prefer the status quo, and who is to say that your personal preference is better than mine.”  At this point camanintx would have been struck silent, because there is no answer to the southern racist’s rejoinder. 

 Which brings us back full circle to Roman Polanski.  Has anyone considered the irony of the materialists’ defense of Polanski’s actions?  Both of Polanski’s parents were imprisoned in Nazi concentration camps.  His mother died at Auschwitz.  Never let us forget that the Nazis came to power in a fair election, and the people of Germany never revolted against their polices.  The “final solution” was perfectly lawful in the sense that it did not violate the internal laws of the nation in which it occurred.  Therefore, camanintx’s logic compels the conclusion that the “is” of the final solution defined the “ought” of the matter, and Polanski’s mother’s death at the hands of the Nazis was in no sense “immoral.”  The irony is that Polanski’s defenders are bringing to bear the same moral relativism that led to the death of Polanski’s mother.

 Sadly, I believe we are losing this battle.  Views like camanintx’s would have been almost literally unthinkable 30 or even 20 years ago.  Now they are commonplace.  How long before they are the majority?  The other day I saw a bumper sticker:  “So many Christians, so few lions.”  I am afraid; for myself, yes, but even more so for my children and grandchildren, whom, I fear, will grow up in a society where every last vestige of the Judeo-Christian ethic will have been jettisoned from our institutions.  That bumper sticker was unthinkable 30 years ago.  What will be “thinkable” 30 years hence that is unthinkable now?  We are going to find out, aren’t we?

Comments
Mark Frank (#217) I quite understand your impatience with a 16-point argument. If someone asked me to explain in one sentence why I think a sexual act between a same-sex couple can never be morally justified, I'd answer: because even if act is performed by two people who love each other very deeply, the act itself is not (and cannot be) an expression of exclusive and permanent love, per se. Marital love is unique, because an act of intimacy between a married couple is capable of expressing precisely that kind of love. I should add that I have nothing against gay couples living together and sharing their lives together as friends. Nor do I oppose the idea of them entering into some legally recognized mutual property arrangement, if they so wish. In response to your comment on Roman Polanski: I would not even think of comparing what Roman Polanski did to the girl he raped with what gay couples do. Everyone with a conscience knows that violating the body of another human being is wrong, and we don't need a 16-point argument to spell that out. When we are talking about a sexual act between consenting adults who happen to love each other very deeply, it takes quite a bit of a subtle argumentation to expose why such an act may nonetheless fail to be morally good. In Polanski's case the positive elements were wholly absent, so it's a no-brainer.vjtorley
October 12, 2009
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Mr Frank, I think you've misrepresented Mr Vjtorley's argument. He hasn't argued against homosexuality per se, merely that recognition of certain gay relationships as 'marriage' is both wrong and definitionally impossible. Just as we've discussed marriages of infertile couples, aged couples, I've also been thinking of how to process arranged marriage and marriage of convenience through this argument against gay marriage. It would seem that a gay man and a lesbian woman can marry each other, but not the partners they truly love. I'm also troubled by the shading of marriage with value judgements such as flawed (raised with respect to plural marriage). if there is a scale in marriage of better and worse, where does it come from? Does it have a societal component? I wonder how much of this wonderland Finnis has explored?Nakashima
October 12, 2009
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delmot, Well, thank you for clearly stating your position. It makes absolutely no sense and there can be no reasoning with someone who refuses reason. Everything came from nothing. Profound… profound gobbledygook. You are god, and there is no other. It's interesting that you think God is a “‘first cause’ type argument“, whereas your “logic just is” argument is not.Brent
October 12, 2009
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You were born with an appetite. It was later you came to believe that eating was good for your survival.suckerspawn
October 12, 2009
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Brent, Could you point out where I said something to that effect? I don’t believe that and don’t think I’ve said anything to lead you to that conclusion. By "your terms" i just meant the "moral code in your heart" bit. So (unless I am reading you wrong) you think that everyone does have the moral code in their hearts? Because some people sure behave as though they don't. They seem quite happy to act in their own interests, even when they know that would be the "wrong" thing to do. As to the source - well I have given my answer already. I believe it's rational to treat others as I would be treated, I believe that, generally speaking, moral actions are those which best lead to the survival and thriving of humanity. How is that arbitrary? I also believe that certain actions, e.g. not neglecting to eat, are best for my own survival. Is that arbitrary? Is my appetite proof of God? You are perhaps suggesting that rationality and logic need God to justify them. If so, I'm afraid I simply disagree again. I think logic just is. It doesn't require further explanation or grounding. That argument is basically a "first cause" type argument and they don't impress me much (fyi yes I also believe that the universe 'just is', or rather the big bang 'just happened').delmot
October 12, 2009
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vjtorley Does it not concern you that it requires a abstract 16 point argument (which you admit was over concise) to establish the wrongness of homosexuality? If someone were to present a 16 point argument to establish that Polanski was not doing anything wrong what would be your reaction? Would you 1) Study the argument carefully in case you had slipped up in your calculations and not realised that in fact child rape in these circumstances was OK. 2) Dismiss the argument as absurd as Polanski's act was clearly wrong. 3) Something else? By choosing a controversial area you leave wiggle room for complex (and in my view meaningless) arguments. But as soon as you choose a more clear cut outcome the immediate reaction to the situation supersedes any abstract deductive approach.Mark Frank
October 12, 2009
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vjtorley @ 203
I really do believe that Einstein is no greater, better, more valuable or more important than a so-called “cretin” or “moron.” I suspect that Darwinists do not share this belief. As far as I can tell, they are intellectual snobs. They appear to regard intellectually impaired people (at least, some of them) as morally inferior and less valuable. Come on, ‘fess up. You do, don’t you, Darwinists?
Speaking only for myself, I have to answer with a qualified 'no' since it depends on what you mean by terms like "greater", "better" or "more valuable". By what standards are you assessing the greatness or value or worthiness of people? By general agreement, Einstein is regarded as one of the greatest theoretical physicists of all time. He was certainly better at science than most other people and the physics community would most probably agree that he was much more valuable to them as a scientist than a "cretin" or "moron". However, if another measure of worth is the rights granted to an individual by society then did Einstein have a greater entitlement to rights within society and, if not, should he have? My answer, in both cases, would be 'no'. Just as everyone should be equal before the law, so should every member of a civilized society have exactly the same entitlement to all basic human rights. On that measure, both Einstein and the "cretin" and "moron" were and should have been held exactly equal. By another measure, of course, we could get yet another answer. If the "cretin" or "moron" is fortunate enough to come from a loving home then they will almost certainly be much more valuable to their mothers, fathers, siblings and friends than some weird scientist like Einstein. I should note in passing, that if one of the basic human rights is held to be the right to choose your partner in life then it should apply to all, regardless of their sexual orientation. If you wish to restrict the use of the word "marriage" only to those partnerships sanctioned by religions according to their beliefs and call those sanctioned by secular society something like "civil partnerships" then, personally, I have no objection.Seversky
October 12, 2009
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delmot, God is morality itself. He is good itself, and it could be no other way. Even if God were the exact opposite of what the Bible claims and most people understand Him to be, with all that would imply, He still would be good. God is the only basis for good or morality. That is why your next question, which essentially you have dodged, should be where does this mysterious moral code in our hearts come from. Just because the moral code is a rational one doesn't mean that it didn't have its source in God, which, I again say, is the only logical conclusion. Without that conclusion there is nothing but arbitrariness, period.
In your terms, it seems that not everyone has the moral code in their heart, even if they can understand it in their head.
Could you point out where I said something to that effect? I don't believe that and don't think I've said anything to lead you to that conclusion. And by the way, do you consider what a parent says to their child arbitrary?Brent
October 12, 2009
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Brent: if we can agree that there is some “moral code” in everyone’s heart, why is it there and where did it come from. I submit to you, if you stick to the most logical, conclusion the rest—the incentive—follows Well naturally I disagree. I believe there can be a rational basis for morality. For example, "do as you would be done by" seems to me to be self evident, and despite its simplicity can be a powerful moral guide. Or there is Kant's Categorical Imperative, an even more thorough attempt to ground our moral intuitions in rationality. That does unfortunately still leave an incentive gap - why should I do what is rational? But isn't that a problem for your explanation too? In your terms, it seems that not everyone has the moral code in their heart, even if they can understand it in their head. Why would a kind and loving god create people lacking in this way? Also there is the Euthyphro dilemma to consider. Is something moral becase God commands it, or does he command it because it is moral? If the former, then morality is essentially arbitrary - whatever God commands, is right. Hence my question about sacrificing your firstborn (which you cheated your way out of, I note). Alternatively, if you feel that God could not or would not command absolutely anything, then he himself must be following an external moral code.delmot
October 12, 2009
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avocationist,
Hoo boy. If you do it from obligation is isn’t written in your heart, and if you have no choice but to follow it, then you don’t really have free will.
Would you care to show how something being written on my heart and being obligated to do it are mutually exclusive. They certainly are not. Further, I didn't say I did it because I was obligated to it, just simply that I am obligated, in that I will be held accountable in the end. Who said I didn't have a choice to follow it? I think we must understand obligation differently. Do people always fulfill their obligations? I know I sometimes fail to. Am I the only one?Brent
October 11, 2009
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Mr Nakashima: Sorry. I made a typo in my previous post. I should have written: The reason why caste barriers, economic classes and skin color are NOT impediments to marriage is that they do not prevent a couple from (a) loving each other in an exclusive and permanent fashion; or (b) procreating a child.vjtorley
October 11, 2009
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Mr. Nakashima Thank you for your recent posts. First of all, I would like to apologize if my tone sounded harsh in my previous post. I had not realized that our views on marriage as a human universal were so close, and as I had not read your earlier comments on this very long thread, I was writing under the mistaken impression that you, like many contemporary Darwinists, denied the existence of "human nature." As an aside, I should mention that although many modern writers on evolution contend that Darwinism destroyed the notion of organisms having an essence or nature, in fact a Darwinist could affirm the existence of human nature, if he/she wished to do so, as Darwinists believe that evolution proceeds at a glacial pace, over millions of years. (For a Goldschmidtian saltationist, who believes that large changes can literally happen overnight, such an affirmation would be difficult, if not impossible.) A Darwinist could affirm that at any given point in time, members of the same human (or animal) species will share the same package of intrinsic goods. A Darwinist would contend, however, that over a very long period of time, human nature would change. For practical intents and purposes, a nature that changes very slowly can still be considered as an essence. (It gets tricky with chronospecies, but you can still preserve the notion of a nature if you are willing to drop the transitivity requirement. In other words, A and its descendant B, separated by 1 million years, may have the same nature; B and its decendant C may have the same nature as well; but that does not necessarily mean that A and C, separated by 2 million years, have a common nature. But I digress.) You wrote that you had adopted two children. That is a noble thing you have done. I would also like to wish your father every happiness in his new marriage. He must be a healthy man, to be tying the knot in his seventies. I'm happy for him and his wife. In your discussion of Finnis' views, you mentioned polygamy. I haven't read what Finnis has written on this topic, but I would imagine that he'd consider a polygamous union to be a deeply flawed kind of marriage, because the element of exclusivity is absent. I should add that even in societies that tolerate polygamy, it is relatively rare: typically no more than 5% of married men have more than one wife. It might sound like a put-down to say that a polygamous union is a flawed marriage, but I think if you asked women around the world how they would feel about sharing their husband with another woman, the overwhelming reaction, in all cultures, would be one of extreme reluctance. Only severe economic pressures in certain poor countries would make women even consider the idea of polygamy - which is why you don't see it in affluent societies like Japan, the USA and Europe. The human heart has the same needs, the world over, and one of these needs is to be loved in an exclusive fashion. Regarding caste barriers: I presume you were talking about the Bunrakumin in Japan (where I happen to live). The reason why caste barriers, economic classes and skin color are impediments to marriage is that they do not prevent a couple from (a) loving each other in an exclusive and permanent fashion; or (b) procreating a child. With a gay couple it is different. There may be isolated cases of same-sex individuals who have had an exclusive and lifelong physical relationship, but I have yet to hear of any. The mere fact that doctors can take the DNA of two gay partners and use it to help make a new human life does not mean that gays have a generative capacity as such. (After all, doctors could do the same thing with the DNA of two children.) Look. I'll put it in historical, Darwinian terms. Men and women have co-evolved, physically and psychologically, to cope with child-rearing, so we know they're up to the task. Men and men have not co-evolved in this fashion: historically, children have been raised by a mother and a father. So there's no reason to think two men would make suitable parents of a child. Gay adoption is a very unwise idea. The American College of Pediatricians has a Web site explaining why: http://www.acpeds.org/?CONTEXT=art&cat=10005&art=187&BISKIT=711636269 I'll quote from their article:
Finally, research has demonstrated considerable risks to children exposed to the homosexual lifestyle. Violence between homosexual partners is two to three times more common than among married heterosexual couples. Homosexual partnerships are significantly more prone to dissolution than heterosexual marriages with the average homosexual relationship lasting only two to three years. Homosexual men and women are reported to be promiscuous, with serial sex partners, even within what are loosely-termed "committed relationships." Individuals who practice a homosexual lifestyle are more likely than heterosexuals to experience mental illness, substance abuse, suicidal tendencies, and shortened life spans. Although some would claim that these dysfunctions are a result of societal pressures in America, the same dysfunctions exist at inordinately high levels among homosexuals in cultures where the practice is more widely accepted. In summary, tradition, and science agree that biological ties and dual gender parenting are protective for children. The family environment in which children are reared plays a critical role in forming a secure gender identity, positive emotional well-being, and optimal academic achievement. Decades of social science research documents that children develop optimally when reared by their two biological parents in a low conflict marriage.
Homosexuals share a common nature with the rest of humanity. That does not imply, however, that a homosexual partnership has the same potential for exclusive and lifelong love as a marriage between a man and a woman. Gays are children of God, but a gay partnership is totally unsuitable for raising a child. Gays who want to do something for children might like to consider sponsoring a child, instead of adopting.vjtorley
October 11, 2009
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"“the moral code within my own heart is really, truly binding. I am absolutely obligated to it; God will hold me accountable to it.” Hoo boy. If you do it from obligation is isn't written in your heart, and if you have no choice but to follow it, then you don't really have free will.avocationist
October 11, 2009
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Cabal @188, For myself I can only answer: I am not quite certain but feel like I’ve been a decent person ever since I was born. You see, the answer to your mystery is that we are here endeavoring to uncover the SOURCE of your morality. Just because you may be an atheist does not equip your heart or soul any differently. delmot, Genuine question: what would you do if God asked you to sacrifice your firstborn child? Well, I know what would happen to the person who listens to that command - they will fare better if they use the insanity plea.avocationist
October 11, 2009
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delmot,
“Ok now we’re talking about a distinction between how one knows what is right, and what is one’s incentive to act on that knowledge. I think there’s a potentially interesting discussion to be had there – perhaps religion is an effective motivating force for many people. But not for all, and also that says nothing about whether or not there is any truth behind the religous claims.”
And so the smoke starts. You couldn't me more wrong. You've skipped the more important and logical next step in your thinking. I.E., if we can agree that there is some “moral code” in everyone's heart, why is it there and where did it come from. I submit to you, if you stick to the most logical, conclusion the rest—the incentive—follows. I don't follow my conscience because of some fearful expectation of judgment, I do it because I've come to the conclusion that it's just, simply, right. I also do it out of my love for Christ.Brent
October 11, 2009
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Mr Vjtorley, Your discussion gives a lot of space to the topic of whether a couple can have children, and whether this should ever constitute a barrier to marriage. You note that infertility should never considered a barrier to heterosexual couples being married. I agree. My mother died several years ago. My father is in his seventies and just married his high school sweetheart. I am extremely happy for them. Their marriage is all about the proclamation of an emotional and hoped for permanent bond, and the securing of other property rights between them. Children are not, if you will permit the term, an issue. Ah, but could they have children? Well, they belong to certain classes, and if the platonically ideal Man and the platonically ideal woman had platonic sex, they would have a platonically ideal Baby. This appeal to class membership to define an 'intrinsic' nature to their relationship is the deep problem of the argument. I find it very hard to square with your very ringing and striking position for the commonality of all humanity. Contra my father's marriage, there are gay couples who are very ready to invest in heroic efforts to procreate using every possible assistance of madern medecine to fuse their DNA, implant a viable fetus and see it brought to term. These two men, or these two women, have an emotional bond they wish to proclaim, wish to enjoy certain property rights and obligations, and wish to procreate. Why deny their particular relationships the title of marriage on the basis of any class they belong to? Does Finnis adress this issue of explaining why sex and sexual prefernence classes should be given different status than skin color classes or economic classes? In Japan, there are Untouchable classes, just like India. Does Finnis explain why this caste barrier to marriage is illusory, while the sexual barrier is not?Nakashima
October 11, 2009
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Mr Vjtorley, In your response, you seem to think that I have objections to premise 1 based on issues of permanence. I do not. I understand the desire for an institution of marriage even in the face of methods to dissolve it. I think the universal marriage that is aspired to is a permanent marriage. The same cannot be said for exclusivity. Plural marriage has been very common in history. I don't think this point harms the argument too much, but it does introduce some issues of variation in marriage, and begins to edge towards questioning whether there is a platonic ideal of marriage that looks only like the top of a wedding cake. So my response to premise 1 is that I think Finnis has left out of marriage a bundle of property rights which are important parts of marriage, beyond that it is a marker of hoped for permanent emotional bonding and exclusive procreational commitment (usually for women only). In the absence of procreational rationales, these other rights and obligations, together with the desire to proclaim the emotional bond, motivate couples of all stripes to desire marriage. Further, if Finnis' argument only analyzes monogamy, it can't be taken as a complete analysis of the human condition.Nakashima
October 11, 2009
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Mr Vjtorley, To lighten the mood of our previous messages, may I say that I also feel 98% radically alike to most primates, somewhat less to hamsters, less to potatoes and ferns, etc. In the movie, E.T. had DNA so I open my arms of brotherhood to him as well, even if he is from Alpha Centauri.Nakashima
October 11, 2009
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My dear Mr Vjtorley, Thank you for expanding on your thoughts and communications of Finnis' position. I apologize if you found something in my previous message, or in any of my messages, that has caused you grief, for I feel more emotion behind your words here than previously. As a bit of background about myself, I have said elsewhere that I adopted two children. My first marriage was infertile, so I take your example to heart. It does not offend me at all, I think it very relevant. Also, if you look above on this thread, you'll see that my response to Mr. Arrington's original questions was that I do believe heartily that we are all the same, and that there is a universal morality. I share your belief that we are radically alike, a phrase I like quite a lot. It brings to mind (to me, anyway) the kind of 'universals' that evolutionary psychologists seek to discover. I agree that an institution of marriage is such a universal. So before going to discuss your points, I just want to end this message with the thought that we are in violent ageement about our alikeness, and the alikeness of all humanity.Nakashima
October 11, 2009
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Nakashima (#200) My summary of Finnis' argument (#170) was, despite its 16 points, a very concise one. That explains the apparent leaps in the logic which you noticed. I should add that Finnis has been writing on natural law for decades, and while many people may disagree with his position, it is a very well thought-out one. Even if you disagree with his premises, his logic is hard to fault. I shall confine my comments to premises 1 to 4 of my foregoing argument: 1. Marriage is by nature an exclusive and permanent commitment. 2. Marriage is by nature an institution dedicated to realizing the intrinsic human good of friendship. 3. Same-sex friendships are not by nature exclusive and permanent commitments (even if a few same-sex couples happen to have such a commitment towards each other). 4. Therefore same-sex friendships cannot be marriages. Premise 1 is in no way undermined by the existence of divorce in most human societies around the world. I did not bother to state the grounds for premise 1 because it would have made my post excessively long, but I knew that someone would remark on it, and sure enough, you did. In brief: what's unique about marriage is that it's an institution which is essentially ordered towards the realization of not one but two basic human goods: friendship and procreation. That's what marriage is for. All human societies, past and present, have an institution called marriage. And in all societies, procreation is part and parcel of the raison d'etre of marriage. I'm not talking here about the raison d'etre of this or that particular marriage, for couples who are infertile can of course marry. I'm talking about the general question of what marriage as an institution is for. A public commitment to the procreation and rearing of children is a commitment of the utmost gravity. While it is true that children have been raised under all sorts of circumstances, the question we are dealing with here is: what kind of commitment between those who are responsible for procreating and raising them is in the best interests of the children? The uncontroversial point that Finnis is making here is that an exclusive and permanent commitment between the parents of the children is the kind of commitment which offers children the best chance to flourish as human beings. Hence an institution whose raison d'etre includes procreation should be an exclusive and permanent union. Note A: In claiming that an exclusive and permanent union between the parents is the kind of union that is most conducive to the flourishing of children, I'm talking about human nature. I'm not making a statistical statement, of the form: 100% of the time, children are better off with both parents sticking together. I'm simply making a statement about Homo sapiens: that human children do best with a Mum and Dad who have made an exclusive and permanent commitment to one another. It's no more controversial than the statement that human children thrive if they are loved, hugged and listened to by their parents. Note B: I'm talking about human beings here, not Alpha Centaurians. Sometimes I think so-called "liberal" commentators are describing the latter, and I get the strong impression that they are trying to redefine human nature because they don't like the kind of animal we truly are. Note C: Saying that marriage is by nature an exclusive and permanent union does not logically entail that divorce should be legally prohibited under all circumstances - although I would argue that at the very least, divorce should be difficult to obtain. Rather, what it means that marriage is meant to be forever, and publicly understood as such. Until about 1960, everyone the world over understood that basic point. That was part of the reason why I didn't elaborate on premise 1, in my earlier post (#170). Premise 2 is also crucial to the argument. Marriage is not just a child-rearing institution. As Finnis clearly realized, thinking of marriage like that dehumanizes it. Marriage is a personal union between two human beings, not two breeding machines. It is built on the bedrock of a lifelong human friendship. It is precisely within the context of that exclusive and permanent friendship between husband and wife that children flourish best. During my discussion of premise 1 above, you may have entertained the following objection: "What about infertile couples who are getting married? Why should they be legally required to pledge publicly that their union will be a permanent one, if they cannot have any children anyway?" The answer to your objection should now be readily apparent. First, the foregoing objection is extremely disrespectful and downright patronizing towards infertile couples who do wish to make a permanent and exclusive commitment to each other. Should they be legally prevented from doing so, despite their best intentions, simply because through an accident of nature which is no fault of their own, they are unable to have children - even though they may both be willing to do so? Second, if an infertile couple don't wish to bind themselves in an exclusive and permanent fashion, that's absolutely fine. They don't have to. But then, why call their union a marriage, if they don't even possess the intention that their union be an exclusive and permanent one? What does such a "union lite" have in common with the real McCoy? Nothing, beyond the mere fact of being a friendship. Any two human beings can be friends, but we don't call them married on that account. Regarding premise 3: the simple reason why same-sex friendships are not by nature exclusive and permanent is that nothing in the nature of a same-sex union could make it exclusive and permanent. Marriage, as we saw, includes the intrinsic good of procreation, as well as friendship. The procreation and rearing of children is a task which by its nature requires an exclusive and permanent union between the parents, as such a union is most conducive to the flourishing of their children. In the case of a same-sex couple, there is no task they are undertaking which requires such a commitment. Hence there is nothing in the nature of a same-sex friendship which requires it to be an exclusive and permanent one. "But," you may object, "what if a same-sex couple wish to bind themselves in an exclusive and permanent fashion? Should they be prevented from doing so?" The answer is that there is nothing to prevent two people of the same sex from being friends forever, there is nothing in the nature of their friendship which requires them to form an exclusive and permanent union, even though they may wish to do so. If the law were to recognize a same-sex union as an exclusive and permanent one, it would be tantamount to creating something out of nothing. I might also add that it would be morally unjust to allow two people of the same sex to bind themselves in an exclusive and permanent fashion. For what if one of them changed their mind, and decided that they no longer wished to be bound in such a fashion? They would then be saddled with their partner for the rest of their life, because of a rash promise they had made, which they could no longer undo. At least with a marriage between a man and woman, there is a perfectly good objective reason why it should be exclusive and permanent: it is inherently ordered towards procreation. With a same-sex friendship there is no such inherent reason. Some feminists have argued in the past that "Marriage is slavery." They were wrong of course, but there was more than a germ of truth in their statement. For marriage would indeed be tantamount to slavery if it were not by its very nature the kind of union that requires an exclusive and permanent commitment, for the proper realization of one of the intrinsic human goods it is dedicated to - namely, procreation. You may reply that the moral and legal dilemma I have posed regarding the same-sex couple, who made a binding commitment but now bitterly regret it, is readily soluble in this day and age: "That's easy. They can divorce." But if it's legally that easy for them to separate, then obviously they never had a legally permanent union in the first place. (And that's the sad thing: in most Western countries, the legal institution of marriage has basically been shattered by the introduction of quick, easy, no-fault divorce, available within a few weeks.) Now, if you think divorce should be legally available to everyone who wishes to leave a relationship, whatever reason they may have for doing so, then what you are really saying is that you don't believe in the idea of marriage. I have already explained why I disagree with this point of view. All I will add here is that if you wish to abolish the institution of marriage as it has been traditionally understood, then you are far more intolerant than I. I'm sure you have one last question for me. "Why do you believe that infertile heterosexual couples are by nature capable of entering into a legally binding exclusive and permanent commitment, while same-sex couples are not?" Here's my answer: infertile heterosexual couples are by nature capable of performing the kind of act that generates a new human life, despite the fact that they cannot have a child. The way in which fertile and infertile heterosexual couples express their love physically is exactly the same: through an act which is by nature (yes, there's that horrid phrase again!) procreative. Intrinsically, the act itself is a generative one, even if there happen to exist certain extrinsic circumstances (low sperm count, not enough eggs, blocked tubes etc.) which prevent the act from being generative for some couples. Now, I claimed in the premise 11 of my argument (#170) that the generative act is an intimate one, and in premise 12 I added that an intimate act, by its very nature, can only be morally good if it expresses the intrinsic human good of friendship. Otherwise it debases and degrades the people participating in it. This should be fairly self-evident: I don't intend to belabor the point. Since an infertile couple perform the same kind of intimate act to express their love as a fertile couple, it must therefore express the same kind of friendship. Since the friendship between a husband and wife who are fertile is (as I have argued) of a most peculiar kind - i.e. exclusive and permanent - then the friendship between an infertile husband and wife must be of the same sort. In which case, it follows that an infertile heterosexual couple must be fully capable of having an exclusive and permanent love for each other, which is the kind of love that a true marriage requires. To sum up: infertile couples perform the same kinds of intimate sexual acts that fertile couples do (i.e. acts which are intrinsically generative); hence they must be naturally capable of the kind of exclusive and permanent love that procreative acts presuppose; hence they are fully capable of having exactly the same kind of exclusive and permanent love for each other that fertile couples do. Hence they can marry. What about a same-sex couple? Their case is in no way similar to that of the infertile heterosexual couple, as regards the nature of their sexual acts. The various kinds of sexual acts they perform are all intrinsically incapable of generating a new human life - unlike the case of the infertile couple, where the act they perform is still generative, even though some circumstances which are extrinsic to the act itself (e.g. a low, or zero, sperm count or egg count) may prevent the act from ever resulting in procreation. Since a same-sex couple can't perform a generative act, and since procreation is the sole reason why marriage is by nature exclusive and permanent, then we have no grounds for believing that a same-sex couple are capable of having an exclusive and permanent love for each other, as there is absolutely no reason to believe that they are naturally capable of the kind of exclusive and permanent love which such a commitment presupposes, within the context of their same-sex relationship. I'm quite sure that same-sex couples truly love each other - but I would also maintain that their love is not the exclusive and permanent kind of love that a married couple have towards each other. I won't argue this point any further; it should be obvious. On last question. You're probably wondering if someone who lacked a belief in God could buy the argument I have sketched above. Short answer: yes, they could. Metaphysically, what the foregoing argument presupposes is that: (i) all human beings are capable of at least desiring (if not always realizing) the same set of intrinsic goods (such as friendship) for their own sake. Different natural law theorists have slightly different lists of these goods, but to give the reader an idea, health, procreation, play, friendship, art, and science (pursuit of knowledge) are commonly cited as examples of intrinsic human goods; (ii) for all human beings, all of these intrinsic goods which we share in common are conducive to our flourishing per se, even if in particular circumstances, and for particular individuals, their realization may happen to be inconvenient (here and now), inadvisable (here and now) or impossible (due to some accident or impediment); (iii) all human beings are constituted in such a way that they are naturally capable of realizing these goods and of satisfying the requirements for doing so - even if particular individuals, due to some misfortune or accident, may be prevented from realizing some of these goods as a result of some impediment; (iv) these intrinsic human goods are not in essential conflict with each other; they harmonize. Each person is a psychological unity. We may not be able to realize all of these goods in our lifetimes, but the goods are not opposed to each other per se. In practice, however, it may not be possible to devote one's time and energy towards realizing more than a couple of them. In short, what statements (i) to (iv) affirm is that under the skin, we are all radically alike - and that includes homosexuals. "Different strokes for different folks," "What might be right for you might not be right for some" - that's all a lie. Our similarities are profound and ineradicable. We're all human. Some of us suffer from accidental impairments - physical, emotional, mental and spiritual - which prevent us from realizing some of the intrinsic goods we share by virtue of our common nature. Some of us have suffered accidents of misfortune during our lives. These things may scar us, but they can never take away our common humanity. In other words, the differences between people are merely extrinsic (as opposed to intrinsic) and hence superficial, as far as the intrinsic human goods are concerned. Ethically speaking, there are not different kinds of people; we are all the same, as far as the goods which perfect us as human beings are concerned. The reason why some individuals seem to be incapable of realizing one or more of these goods - or of even wanting to do so - has to do with their peculiar individual circumstances (e.g. an accident, injury or misfortune), and not their natures. In practice, however, it may not always be possible for us to treat or remove the impediments which block some people from realizing their full human potential. We may not always be able to understand the blockage, or we may lack the scientific know-how to treat it. (Case in point: it may be possible for scientists to grow back the brain of a so-called "human vegetable" in the year 2100, but for now, we can't.) In such cases, we should remember that a human being with an impediment is the same kind of being as a "normal" one. And we should humbly remember that all of us are impaired to some degree or other. Nobody's perfect. Could someone accept all these facts about human nature, as I have listed them, without a belief in God? I think so. Natural law does not explicitly presuppose God's existence, as I argued above (#101). It would, of course, be a great mystery to a non-believer that all human beings happened to possess a common nature, such that they were all perfected by the same set of intrinsic goods, and that these intrinsic goods all happened to harmonize with one another, and that we were naturally capable (barring some extrinsic impediment) of doing whatever it took to realize them. But I suppose such a non-believer could say: "Never mind why this is so. I'll just take that as a given fact about the world, and proceed from there when reasoning about right and wrong." There have been Aristotelian atheists - such as Ayn Rand - whose metaphysical presuppositions were not so far removed from those of the hypothetical non-believer I have just described. Another reason why a non-believer might take the foregoing metaphysical presuppositions as a "given" is that the alternative is ethically unthinkable: either there is no such thing as "human nature" (which I take it is what Mr. Nakashima believes), or that there are fundamentally different kinds of people (e.g. heterosexuals and homosexuals), with different natures (at least from an ethical perspective). The disastrous implications of these views is that they are irreconcilable with a belief in human equality. If there are fundamentally different kinds of people, then how can they all be equal? And how can we be equal if we don't share a common nature? I really do believe that Einstein is no greater, better, more valuable or more important than a so-called "cretin" or "moron." I suspect that Darwinists do not share this belief. As far as I can tell, they are intellectual snobs. They appear to regard intellectually impaired people (at least, some of them) as morally inferior and less valuable. Come on, 'fess up. You do, don't you, Darwinists? So criticize me if you like, Mr. Nakashima, but don't saw off the ethical branch you're sitting on.vjtorley
October 11, 2009
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Ok now we're talking about a distinction between how one knows what is right, and what is one's incentive to act on that knowledge. I think there's a potentially interesting discussion to be had there - perhaps religion is an effective motivating force for many people. But not for all, and also that says nothing about whether or not there is any truth behind the religous claims.delmot
October 11, 2009
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Re #198 "the moral code within my own heart is really, truly binding. I am absolutely obligated to it; God will hold me accountable to it." If you don't - what happens?Mark Frank
October 11, 2009
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Mr Vjtorley, I find your summary of Finnis' position (@170) very hard to understand. It seems to switch between axiomatic arguments and "facts on the ground" arguments as necessary, and leaps from 'not good' to 'wrong' effortlessly. It ignores the obvious problem that if you run heterosexual relations through the same process, you'll decide that heterosexual relations "can't" be marriage either. In general, the principle of exclusivity seems a difficult one to attach to marriage, given the prevalence of multiple marriage traditions in the world. Has Finnis studied the exclusivity and commitment evidenced by gay couples, men and women, in countries where these unions are accepted as marriage? Are their lengths and rates of dissolution, reasons for dissolution radicaly different from heterosexual marriage? By appealing to any such study, is Finnis engaging in an 'is-ought' argument? "Because most gays are promiscuous, no gays can be committed and exclusive." What kind of logic is that?? I'm not even arguing the factual validity of the precedent, the form alone doesn't work. It judges all particulars on the basis of their membership in a class, which is almost the definition of prejudice. I find points 3-4 very problematic.Nakashima
October 11, 2009
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Cabal (#194) You wrote:
Condemning other people is easy, but what about “Thou shalt not steal”? Should I let my children starve to death if the only option was to steal food?
Of course not. In answer to your question, here's what the book of Deuteronomy (15:4, 15:11, 24:17-22) has to say:
15:4 Nay, more! since the LORD, your God, will bless you abundantly in the land he will give you to occupy as your heritage, there should be no one of you in need... 15:11 "The needy will never be lacking in the land; that is why I command you to open your hand to your poor and needy kinsman in your country... 24:17 "You shall not violate the rights of the alien or of the orphan, nor take the clothing of a widow as a pledge. 18 For, remember, you were once slaves in Egypt, and the LORD, your God, ransomed you from there; that is why I command you to observe this rule. 19 "When you reap the harvest in your field and overlook a sheaf there, you shall not go back to get it; let it be for the alien, the orphan or the widow, that the LORD, your God, may bless you in all your undertakings. 20 When you knock down the fruit of your olive trees, you shall not go over the branches a second time; let what remains be for the alien, the orphan and the widow. 21 When you pick your grapes, you shall not go over the vineyard a second time; let what remains be for the alien, the orphan, and the widow. 22 For remember that you were once slaves in Egypt; that is why I command you to observe this rule.
And here is what St. Thomas Aquinas has to say (Summa Theologica, II-II, q. 66, article 7: Article 7. "Whether it is lawful to steal through stress of need?"):
Things which are of human right cannot derogate from natural right or Divine right. Now according to the natural order established by Divine Providence, inferior things are ordained for the purpose of succoring man's needs by their means. Wherefore the division and appropriation of things which are based on human law, do not preclude the fact that man's needs have to be remedied by means of these very things. Hence whatever certain people have in superabundance is due, by natural law, to the purpose of succoring the poor. For this reason Ambrose [Loc. cit., 2, Objection 3] says, and his words are embodied in the Decretals (Dist. xlvii, can. Sicut ii): "It is the hungry man's bread that you withhold, the naked man's cloak that you store away, the money that you bury in the earth is the price of the poor man's ransom and freedom." Since, however, there are many who are in need, while it is impossible for all to be succored by means of the same thing, each one is entrusted with the stewardship of his own things, so that out of them he may come to the aid of those who are in need. Nevertheless, if the need be so manifest and urgent, that it is evident that the present need must be remedied by whatever means be at hand (for instance when a person is in some imminent danger, and there is no other possible remedy), then it is lawful for a man to succor his own need by means of another's property, by taking it either openly or secretly: nor is this properly speaking theft or robbery. (Emphases mine - VJT.)
I hope that answers your question.vjtorley
October 11, 2009
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Cabal and delmot, I don't doubt that you both have a very real sense of morality, nor that it is the same as my own (not meaning that we agree on every point). What I recognize that you don't, however, is that the moral code within my own heart is really, truly binding. I am absolutely obligated to it; God will hold me accountable to it.Brent
October 11, 2009
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Cabal, I said,
“There must be a hunger and thirst for righteousness or we’ll remain in the dark.”
You said,
“If I only could understand why even Darwinists, atheists and other non-Christian people can feel that way too?”
I'm talking way more than feeling, first of all. Secondly, the first concept that you'd be faced with if really hungering and thirsting for righteousness is the question of an ultimate morality—a binding morality which one is obligated to adhere to. Now, everyone in one sense wants to be righteous. This goes back to rationalization. If we didn't give a whip about doing “bad” things, then why do we rationalize anything at all? But that word is in the dictionary for a reason. So, everyone has a desire to be seen righteous by his/her peers, but that is an entirely different thing than hungering and thirsting after righteousness. You speak of the former, not the latter.Brent
October 11, 2009
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delmot,
“Genuine question: what would you do if God asked you to sacrifice your firstborn child?”
He did, and I have. I sacrificed my first and second child to Him. All Christians are obligated to sacrifice everything to the Lord. Nothing is otherwise safe in our own care.Brent
October 11, 2009
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----NDer: "The point is, beginning with ourselves, we are always trying to pull ourselves up by our own boot laces. The only reasoned answer, if we eliminate God as the source of morality, is “all things are permissible”, and may he with the biggest guns win (Schaeffer said some phrase like this)." You are right, of course. Putting religion aside, we have only two choices: [A] The natural moral law or [B] Might makes right. Those who make up their own personal morality to serve their own personal interests will end up choosing [B]. That is why the homosexual movement is busy working with the ACLU to establish "hate crime" laws, making themselves politically "mighty" and using the power of the state to silence those who disagree with their world view. Anyone who demands an illegitimate freedom apart from the natural moral law will invariably seek to take away the legitimate freedom of others.StephenB
October 11, 2009
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delmot,
Genuine question: what would you do if God asked you to sacrifice your firstborn child?
Maybe a relevant question, but I am afraid it reverts to a question of theology; HOW do God make himself known to people, how do we know God is standing before us? A talking lamb? (Re. talking serpent.) Which leads to the age-old question: Biblical literalism, or not? AFAIK, that haven't yet been settled beyond reasonable doubt. Who is willing to stand up and say "I know, I represent ultimate authority." I have firm opinions on such matters but I am not in a position to tell anyone what is right or wrong. I believe that in the end, we are all left to our own conscience, maturity, understanding, wisdom et cetera. No book can substitute for that. Why not just ask your God? Condemning other people is easy, but what about "Thou shalt not steal"? Should I let my children starve to death if the only option was to steal food? Frankly, and I guess that means I will no longer be with you either, I don't think the Polanski question as it was posed was a suitable subject for this blog. What about some ID related subject instead?Cabal
October 11, 2009
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delmont -- Genuine question: what would you do if God asked you to sacrifice your firstborn child? Interesting question. The entire basis of Christianity is that God sacrificed His firstborn for you and accepting that is all that's need to be right with Him and that any additional sacrifice on your part would be a rejection of His sacrifice. Obedience, of course, is required but that obedience includes refraining from infanticide. Now what if some spiritual force asked YOU to sacrifice YOUR first born? Assuming you are an atheist, you would initially ignore it. But suppose its persistence was such that it couldn't be? What would give you the strength to stand up to it? Your pride? LOL. Your love? Isn't that just a chemical reaction created by evolution to perpetuate the species? Surely, such a material thing could be set aside for some expedient end, right? Frankly, the only thing you could count on ultimately in such a circumstance was faith in the goodness of God.tribune7
October 11, 2009
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