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Child Rape in a Materialist World

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Here are the facts concerning the Roman Polanski case:  Polanski gave a Quaalude to a 13 year-old child; instructed her to get naked and enter a Jacuzzi; refused to take her home when she asked; performed oral sex on her as she asked him to stop; raped her (no, not the “statutory” kind, the “forcible” kind); and sodomized her.  In a plea bargain Polanski pled to unlawful sex with a minor.

As is common knowledge, Polanski has his defenders because he has made some terrific movies.  For example, critic Tom Shales says:  “There is, apparently, more to this crime than it would seem, and it may sound like a hollow defense, but in Hollywood I am not sure a 13-year-old is really a 13-year-old.”

Here’s today’s question:  “Is it wrong in all times and at all places (even Hollywood) for a 44 year-old man to drug, rape and sodomize a 13 year-old girl?”

For our materialist friends who answer “yes” to the question (as I hope you will), I have a follow-up question:  “How can you know that you are right and Polanski’s defenders are wrong?”

 UPDATE:

At first the materialists dodged my second (and much more important) question.  But then a brave soul who calls himself “camanintx” took up for the materialists the gauntlet I had thrown down, and we had the following exchange:

 

Barry:  How can you know that you are right and Polanski’s defenders are wrong?”

 

camanintx:  Because the society in which I and Polanski (at the time) live in define it as such. Had Polanski lived in 6th century Arabia, he probably would have been treated differently, no?

 

Barry:   Let’s assume for the sake of argument that drugging, raping and sodomizing a young girl was considered moral behavior in Arabia between the years 501 and 600 AD [I by no means concede that, but will accept it arguendo].  On the basis of your response, camanintx, I assume you would say that the fact that it was considered moral behavior in the society in which it occurred, is in fact determinative of the morality of the behavior, and therefore if Polanski had done what he did in that place and time it would have been moral. Is that what you are saying?

 camanintx:  Since morality is a subjective term, yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

 Thank you, camanintx, for that enlightening exchange.  Nietzsche would have been very proud of you for not flinching away from the nihilistic conclusions compelled by your premises.  You have truly gone “beyond good and evil.”  Roman Polanski was not immoral, must unlucky.  Cruel fate dictated that by the merest whim of fickle chance he happened to live in a society that, for whatever reason, condemns drugging, raping and sodomizing young girls.  If he had lived in a different society, what he did would not have been wrong.  Fortunately for the rest of us, your views remain in the minority (at least for now), and for that reason moral progress remains possible. 

 I invite our readers to evaluate camanintx’s views in light of our own very recent history in this country.  I grew up in the 1960’s in a state of the old Confederacy, and as I was growing up I heard about the condition of black people in earlier times.  Even as late as 1955, it was taken for granted in the southern United States that black people are inferior to white people and therefore have no claim to equal rights under the law.  They were turned away from the polls, made to sit in the back of public busses, and segregated into inferior schools, among a host of other indignities too numerous to catalogue here.  Now, the majority of the people in the South at the time considered this state of affairs to be altogether moral. 

 Think about that.  Under camanintx’s view the “is” of a society defines the “ought” of that society.  I assume camanintx is not a racist and that he personally believes that the conditions under which black people were forced to live in say, 1955 Alabama, were intolerable.  But if he had lived in Alabama in 1955 on what grounds could he have pressed for a change to the status quo?  He would have been in a quandary, because his premises compel him to affirm – as he did in response to my query – that the present state of affairs for a society DEFINES morality in that society. 

 Therefore, according to camanintx, if he had lived in Alabama in 1955, his logic would have compelled him to affirm that racial hatred and intolerance is fine and dandy, morally speaking.  The only thing he could have said is, “While I cannot say racial hatred and intolerance is in any sense “immoral,” I personally do not prefer it, and therefore we should change our laws and behavior to eliminate those blights on our land.”  To which, the all-too-easy response from a southern racist would have been:  “I prefer the status quo, and who is to say that your personal preference is better than mine.”  At this point camanintx would have been struck silent, because there is no answer to the southern racist’s rejoinder. 

 Which brings us back full circle to Roman Polanski.  Has anyone considered the irony of the materialists’ defense of Polanski’s actions?  Both of Polanski’s parents were imprisoned in Nazi concentration camps.  His mother died at Auschwitz.  Never let us forget that the Nazis came to power in a fair election, and the people of Germany never revolted against their polices.  The “final solution” was perfectly lawful in the sense that it did not violate the internal laws of the nation in which it occurred.  Therefore, camanintx’s logic compels the conclusion that the “is” of the final solution defined the “ought” of the matter, and Polanski’s mother’s death at the hands of the Nazis was in no sense “immoral.”  The irony is that Polanski’s defenders are bringing to bear the same moral relativism that led to the death of Polanski’s mother.

 Sadly, I believe we are losing this battle.  Views like camanintx’s would have been almost literally unthinkable 30 or even 20 years ago.  Now they are commonplace.  How long before they are the majority?  The other day I saw a bumper sticker:  “So many Christians, so few lions.”  I am afraid; for myself, yes, but even more so for my children and grandchildren, whom, I fear, will grow up in a society where every last vestige of the Judeo-Christian ethic will have been jettisoned from our institutions.  That bumper sticker was unthinkable 30 years ago.  What will be “thinkable” 30 years hence that is unthinkable now?  We are going to find out, aren’t we?

Comments
delmot (#190)
Genuine question: what would you do if God asked you to sacrifice your firstborn child?
If I heard a voice from the sky ordering me to sacrifice my firstborn child, I'd assume it was either a demon or an alien, and ignore it.vjtorley
October 11, 2009
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Mark Frank Just to be perfectly clear: I do not believe that homosexual acts should be criminalized. Saying that an act is immoral is one thing; saying that it should be illegal is another thing entirely. Ditto for extra-marital sex. Finnis is of the same opinion.vjtorley
October 11, 2009
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Genuine question: what would you do if God asked you to sacrifice your firstborn child?delmot
October 11, 2009
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I think these threads are embarrassing and insulting. Not to atheists, most of whom I'm pretty sure are secure and confident in their knowledge of morality, but to christians, who apparently cannot figure themselves what is right and wrong but need to be told by an authority figure; and who also apparently cannot figure out how to use the internet discover what some non-religious theories of morality might be. Hint: wikipedia is pretty good at that kind of thing.delmot
October 11, 2009
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How many times can you ask an atheist “where do you get your ethical guidelines if you have no ultimate moral framework (ie the Abrahamic god)to hang them on??”
All right, BGOG didn’t attempt to answer that perennial question. (But bannination?) For myself I can only answer: I am not quite certain but feel like I've been a decent person ever since I was born.I am not prepared to write an essay on that theme even if I might have some ideas. But the essence is what the Gnostics knew even before literalist Christianity took over: Christian Gnostic theologian Valentinius said all that needs to be said on the subject: "Much that is written in Pagan books is found also in the books of God’s Church. What they share in common are the words which spring from the heart, the law that is inscribed on the heart."Cabal
October 11, 2009
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To vjtorley, Thanks for all the comments inside your comment (#170 I think). I cannot help thinking that you are question begging in the premises of your argument. I think that you are trying to deduce a moral yardstick from within rather than from without. I simply cannot understand how that can be possible, in principle. The reason the homosexual movement has been able to establish itself so effectively is surely due largely to the difficulty in arguing against it, if we begin with ourselves. Without outside input (a.k.a. God), I cannot for the life of me see how we can effectively argue against it, in principle. It is of course made worse due to heterosexual relational breakdown, such that gay couples (e.g. in New Zealand) now want the freedom and rights to adopt children. And why not, since they may be more stable than many heterosexual couples. The point is, beginning with ourselves, we are always trying to pull ourselves up by our own boot laces. The only reasoned answer, if we eliminate God as the source of morality, is "all things are permissible", and may he with the biggest guns win (Schaeffer said some phrase like this).NZer
October 11, 2009
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There must be a hunger and thirst for righteousness or we’ll remain in the dark.
If I only could understand why even Darwinists, atheists and other non-Christian people can feel that way too?Cabal
October 11, 2009
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#177 CannuckianYankee I admire your courage and openness about your sexual inclinations and attitude towards them. Of course there is absolutely nothing wrong with abstaining if you feel happier that way - just as there is nothing wrong with heterosexual abstention. Western society does indeed place quite a lot of peer pressure on people to have sex - sometimes when they might prefer not to. It would perhaps be a kinder and more fulfilling place to live if for man people if they could get away from that pressure. Surely you can find such a niche for yourself? But that doesn't make either form of sex wrong. It is interesting that you argued your case from your specific situation and the pressures and discomforts you feel. You didn't look up what was right or wrong in a book or refer to a moral law. You didn't need to.Mark Frank
October 10, 2009
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It’s a great summary of a key point in Eph 4:17 – 24.
Excellent reference.
(Which is not irrelevant to the focus of this thread!)
Not at all. Something I decided to edit myself on earlier was the point that those “darkened in their understanding…having lost all sensitivity…” are not excused for it. The point is that they could see if they wanted to. Who would excuse someone for bumbling through their house and breaking everything in sight because they didn't feel like turning on the light? No excuse at all. There must be a hunger and thirst for righteousness or we'll remain in the dark.Brent
October 10, 2009
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—-Mark: “Moral principles should be descriptive/inductive not prescriptive/deductive. We should study human situations with compassion, sensitivity and intelligence and draw our lessons from them. Start off by acknowledging that Polanksi was wrong – what he did abhorrent. Then work out what it was about his behaviour that was abhorrent (in this case rather easy). Maybe that is the basis for a law against rape. But it wasn’t the law that made it wrong.” If a moral principle is not binding, it is not a moral principle. In fact, I, with others, am proposing the common sense answer that lies between two unreasonable extremes. On the one hand, we have the tyranny of moral relativism, brought on by the very atheistic communism that you alluded to. On the other hand, we have Sharia Law, which goes to the other extreme and posits a hard, bitter, and mindless absolutism that ignores the principles of right reason. Both extremes are unreasonable, which goes a long way toward explaining why they are extreme.StephenB
October 10, 2009
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So Seversky, If someone gives you a blow to the head, do you stop to wonder whether the synapses in your brain have interpreted such an event as an actual blow to the head and take offense, or do you suggest to yourself that such a perceived blow to the head may be something entirely different than what you percieve, and that maybe you shouldn't rush to judgment on the person who has just committed (or not) this crime against you? Your reasoning is disasterous. How are you able to make any rational judgments?CannuckianYankee
October 10, 2009
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----Mark Frank: “I may well be banned for this but I think it is worth it. Mostly I comment on UD because I find it interesting to hear other views, but when I read this series of comments I was shaken. ---- “vjtorley – I believe you to be a reasonable and pleasant person but this kind of reasoning sounds like the Taliban. It would be so easy to substitute Sharia law for Moral Law or Natural Law or whatever.” The natural moral law is not synonymous with any religion’s perception of Divine Law. That point has been made more than once by more than one person. VJ simply provided a reasoned argument based on natural law, an argument that is not dependent on any religious perspective. He was asked an honest question and he provided an honest answer. I would have given the same answer in my own way. Would you take away his free speech rights, or mine, on the grounds that you are offended by the argument? It appears so. -----“The key problem is this approach of working out what is right or wrong by abstract argument from a set of laws which for one reason or another you believe to be right. It could be, moral law, Sharia law, or the communist manifesto. The result is that the individual human situation and our reaction to it as humans is ignored, with disastrous results. We steel ourselves to ignore the suffering of others (in this case homosexuals) because we have worked out in theory what is right. This is what causes men to fly airliners into buildings. This is the world of the Handmaid’s Tale.” This is an old charge and it is nothing short of absurd. Both the Communist Manifesto and Sharia Law disavow the natural moral law and the inherent dignity of the human person, the very essence of the natural moral law. It is an irresponsible act of the first order to characterize those three world views as moral equivalents, or to even to place them in the same sentence. It is also irresponsible, and unkind, to suggest that anyone who provides reasoned arguments against homosexual behavior is unsympathetic to their plight. Yet, that is what you implied. ----“Moral principles should be descriptive/inductive not prescriptive/deductive. We should study human situations with compassion, sensitivity and intelligence and draw our lessons from them. Start off by acknowledging that Polanksi was wrong – what he did abhorrent. Then work out what it was about his behaviour that was abhorrent (in this case rather easy). Maybe that is the basis for a law against rape. But it wasn’t the law that made it wrong.” If a moral principle is not binding, it is not a moral principle. In fact, I, with others, am proposing the common sense answer that lies between two unreasonable extremes. On the one hand, we have the tyranny of moral relativism, brought on by the very atheistic communism that you alluded to. On the other hand, we have Sharia Law, which goes to the other extreme and posits a hard, bitter, and mindless absolutism that ignores the principles of right reason. Both extremes are unreasonable, which goes a long way toward explaining why they are extreme. If the natural moral law happens to be compatible with Christianity and not compatible with Islam or Atheism, that is because both the natural moral law and Christianity are reasonable. To tell the truth about the natural moral law is not to lack compassion, sensitivity, or intelligence, it is to liberate slaves from the world’s two competing tyrannies—Atheistic communism and Sharia Law. Advocates of the natural moral law ask their adversaries to reason with them.. Advocates of Sharia Law and Atheistic Communism demand that their critics keep quiet or they will be punished, by force if necessary. In effect, you have told your adversaries to shut up..StephenB
October 10, 2009
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vjtorley @ 151
Intrinsic goods are not a matter of personal preference. They are simply goods that are capable of being desired by any human being, for their own sake. I don’t know of anything more objective than the fact that health is a good thing. Moral philosophers may have slightly different lists of these goods, but that is because one philosopher’s definition of a given good may be broader than another philosopher’s, so that good A in one scheme encompasses goods B + C in another.
Where does this "good", intrinsic or otherwise, exist except in the mind of whoever is making the judgement at the time? It sounds to me like just another attempt argue that what is a subjective value judgement must have some sort of existence in objective reality - the fallacy of reification.Seversky
October 10, 2009
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DELETED.Seversky
October 10, 2009
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Editors: The thrust of this comment: "People who disagree with me are the type of people who fly airplanes into buildings." The comment and the commenter have been deleted from this site.steve_h
October 10, 2009
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Mark Frank, "We steel ourselves to ignore the suffering of others (in this case homosexuals) because we have worked out in theory what is right. This is what causes men to fly airliners into buildings. This is the world of the Handmaid’s Tale." I'm not certain where you are going with this. However, on the issue of homosexuality, there are quite a number of individuals in this country who have homosexual feelings, but who do not want to live a lifestyle of having sex with others of the same gender. Their feelings are ignored because of the current PC, which renders homosexuality as natural and not a choice - even though these individuals attest to the idea that it is not natural, and that it is a choice - and from their own experience. I count myself among them. The issue of the morality of homosexuality, and the just treatment of homosexuals are separate issues. Most Christians are appalled at the hatred stemming from Fred Phelps, and his congregation. There is something about the current cultural morality concerning homosexuality, which makes living the lifestyle as the only option for those who have these feelings. This is a kind of oppression in itself. If I want to be free from homosexuality because of the destructive tendency it leaves in me, then I feel I have both a moral obligation, as well as the freedom to choose something that is more compatible with my sense of morality. If that means abstinance, then that for me is a good thing. But I don't pass judgment on those who believe that the homosexual lifestyle is destructive, because I have first-hand experience that it is indeed so. Others may feel otherwise, and I pass no judgment on that choice either, but neither should such people pass judgment on me because I've decided to go another way. My experience with the 'gay community' in this country, is that it stifles any desire to change. There exist many contradictions in the community - on one hand, they believe that homosexuality is inbred, yet at the same time, some of them recognize that at a particular point in their lives, they chose to be gay. I find this contradiction all the time, yet the politically correct answer is that it is not a choice. The problem we face is that there is a huge pro-homosexual lobby, which has succeeded in changing the cultural milieu regarding same sex relationships, and it is making inroads into the acceptance of same sex unions and marriage. Nobody seems to be asking the questions about whether homosexuality is normative and good for our society. Few dare to ask these questions because of the potential political and social fallout. If your morality makes you sensitive of the suffering of homosexuals - great. There has indeed been much suffering. However, I think a question you might want to ask yourself is this: Is the suffering of the homosexual necessarily the fault of a society that rejects the lifestyle, or is it more due to the incompatibility of the lifestyle to the overall social mores? I think that homosexuals suffer more because we tell them that the gay lifestyle is normal and they should embrace it, when what I find is that many gay people struggle with accepting being gay, not because of society's disapproval, but because of the moral issues involved in the lifestyle. And if you don't think there are moral issues involved in the homosexual lifestyle, then I don't think you have the whole story. I don't find that those who oppose homosexuality can be put in the same camp as those who fly airplanes into buildings.CannuckianYankee
October 10, 2009
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stehpenb @ ~167
So, in the face of this challenge, what kind of moral code will the atheist typically contrive for himself? Will it be one that shows him where he is with respect to where he ought to be? Not likely. He doesn’t think that there is any “ought to be.” Will it be one that challenges him to change his behavior and pay all the costs associated with those changes? More likely, he will form a code that allows him to stay pretty much as he is, one that plays to his strengths and conveniently ignores his weaknesses. Will he put the searchlight on his intentions? Why should he? He hasn’t even approached the behavior issue in any realistic way. Will he stumble, fall, and get back up in his attempt to be good. Not likely, because he doesn’t believe that there is any such thing a “good.”
Actually I do believe there is such a thing as a "good", but it's a concept, not a thing that can be weighed or counted, and it's not absolute. And I don't agree that atheists are under no pressure to reevaluate their moral positions. The greatest pressure we experience doesn't come from philosophizing about ultimate and objective standards but from the more immediate feedback we get from everyone we meet. We care what people think about us. We also care about how people may react upon thinking those things about us. And so do you. Being raised in a environment where people expect certain types of behaviour changes you. Being shunned or hated by others changes you. Being killed by them changes you. The fear of those things changes you. I suspect that there are things in your collective closets that you don't want people to know about. God/(The Aliens) know about those things and have forgiven you for them so you should have no problem discussing these things. But you won't - the prospect of us all knowing about them and joking about them would scare the collective [bleep] out of you. Moral pressure comes from people.steve_h
October 10, 2009
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Re #170 through to #173 I may well be banned for this but I think it is worth it. Mostly I comment on UD because I find it interesting to hear other views, but when I read this series of comments I was shaken. vjtorley - I believe you to be a reasonable and pleasant person but this kind of reasoning sounds like the Taliban. It would be so easy to substitute Sharia law for Moral Law or Natural Law or whatever. The key problem is this approach of working out what is right or wrong by abstract argument from a set of laws which for one reason or another you believe to be right. It could be, moral law, Sharia law, or the communist manifesto. The result is that the individual human situation and our reaction to it as humans is ignored, with disastrous results. We steel ourselves to ignore the suffering of others (in this case homosexuals) because we have worked out in theory what is right. This is what causes men to fly airliners into buildings. This is the world of the Handmaid's Tale. Moral principles should be descriptive/inductive not prescriptive/deductive. We should study human situations with compassion, sensitivity and intelligence and draw our lessons from them. Start off by acknowledging that Polanksi was wrong - what he did abhorrent. Then work out what it was about his behaviour that was abhorrent (in this case rather easy). Maybe that is the basis for a law against rape. But it wasn't the law that made it wrong.Mark Frank
October 10, 2009
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avocationist, "It seems to me that people have a natural tendency to take more care of their relationship with God than with their fellow man, and even though it might be primary, unless it is quickly followed by love and forgiveness and compassion toward one’s fellow man then progress stops." Yes, I agree. One's relationship with another must be right before one can have a right relationship with God. So if one is mistreating another, one's relationship with God is askew. Also, one's relationship with another is intended to be a reflection of God's character (though imperfect). Therefore, love, commitment, honesty, integrity must be reflected in the horizontal relationship. It's not simply based in keeping the quota of moral law. Nor is it some sort of contract obligation. You mentioned spiritual maturity - I think that comes when one's good deeds towards others is no longer seen as an obligation, but as a desire - regardless of the outcome.CannuckianYankee
October 10, 2009
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Scott Andrews I would just like to say that I agree with your comment:
At least according to the scriptures, the conscience does not contain a complete, built-in understanding of all that is right and wrong.
I would never maintain that natural law encompasses morality in its entirety. To cite your example: Saul's persecution of the Christians certainly violated their natural rights insofar as cruelty was involved; but in trying to stop Christianity, Saul was also opposing the supernatural order, and on matters pertaining to the supernatural, reason alone cannot tell us what is right and wrong; reason must be informed by faith, which is a gift from God. Saul was privileged to receive that gift, which is why we now call him St. Paul. Christians must never be judgemental towards those who have not yet received the gift of supernatural faith.vjtorley
October 10, 2009
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We seem to agree at a level of about 99% ... I submit, however, that the uninstructed conscience is not a blank slate, that humans have an inborn instinct about right and wrong Okay, call it 100%.ScottAndrews
October 10, 2009
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---Scott Andrews: "But the conscience is dependent on accurate knowledge. Otherwise, why would God tell Adam not to eat from the tree?" We seem to agree at a level of about 99%. We agree that the human conscience requires moral instruction for development. We agree that it must be formed according to the natural moral law. We also agree that a conscience uninformed by the natural moral law cannot come to moral maturity. I submit, however, that the uninstructed conscience is not a blank slate, that humans have an inborn instinct about right and wrong, that the natural moral law, is already written on the human heart, a voice that calls out to love and do the right thing, though its understanding of morality is crude and undeveloped. I submit further, that if that "law" is not already there, no amount of instruction can create it, either through socialization, moral instruction, environmental training, or any other means. What I understand you to be saying is that the conscience must not only be informed by the natural moral law to come to maturity, but that it must also be INTRODUCED to the natural moral law and, without that introduction, it will provide no guidance whatsoever. Is that where we differ? Or, do we differ at all?StephenB
October 10, 2009
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NZer (#153, 154) You asked me about how human reason can determine whether homosexuality is right or wrong.
Ok, so why don’t you take, for example, homosexuality. Queers may well believe that certain behaviors that they partake in are morally ok. Christians (+ observant Jews and Muslims) on the other hand would strongly disagree, and instead assert that such behavior is morally detestable. So, given your reasoning, how do you determine which if these is right and which is wrong?
You might want to have a look at what Professor John Finnis has written on the subject, since he is far better versed in natural law theory than I. Here are two links: "The Wrong of Homosexuality" by John Finnis at http://books.google.com/books?id=-arJDCunTwEC&pg=PA135&lpg=PA135&dq=finnis+homosexuality&source=bl&ots=25t_-3rNin&sig=aTi03sjRGib0OPuPZa6XjiGYcvQ&hl=en&ei=6bXQSr_ZFKXm6gPE1a3pAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CBoQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=finnis%20homosexuality&f=false "Reason, Faith and Homosexual Acts" by John Finnis at http://www.catholicsocialscientists.org/CSSR/Archival/2001/Finnis_61-70.pdf (the meat of his argument starts at the bottom of page 63). Now if you want my argument (based on how I read Finnis), then here it is. In what follows, the term "by nature" simply means "essentially," and hence "necessarily." 1. Marriage is by nature an exclusive and permanent commitment. 2. Marriage is by nature an institution dedicated to realizing the intrinsic human good of friendship. 3. Same-sex friendships are not by nature exclusive and permanent commitments (even if a few same-sex couples happen to have such a commitment towards each other). 4. Therefore same-sex friendships cannot be marriages. 5. Since marriage is by nature an institution dedicated to friendship, marriage can only be between a man and a woman. 6. Sexual intercourse between a married couple is a physical realization of their marital friendship, if and only if it signifies an exclusive and permanent commitment on their part. 7. Non-marital friendships are not by nature exclusive and permanent. (Hence marital friendship is essentially different from other kinds of friendship.) 8. Sexual intercourse between a couple who are not married cannot signify an exclusive and permanent commitment, because no such commitment exists in their case. 9. Therefore sexual intercourse between a couple who are not married cannot be a physical realization of the kind of friendship they possess. 10. Therefore sexual intercourse between a couple who are not married cannot be an act expressing their friendship, as such. 11. Sexual intercourse is by nature an intimate act between two people. 12. An intimate act, by nature, can only be good if it expresses the intrinsic human good of friendship. 13. Since sexual intercourse between a couple who are not married is not an act expressing their friendship, as such, then it cannot be a good act, as such. 14. Sexual intercourse between a couple who are not married is therefore a wrong act. 15. Same-sex couples can never be married. 16. Therefore acts of sexual intercourse between same-sex couples are wrong acts. Note that the foregoing is an argument establishing the wrongfulness of homosexual acts as such. It is not intended to show that all homosexuals are bad people. Only God can see into our hearts. I'll leave you with a quote from Finnis:
The relationship of same-sex couples can never be marriage. The easiest way to see this is to ask oneself why same-sex sex acts should be restricted to couples rather than three-somes, four-somes, etc., or rather than couples or other groups whose membership rotates at agreed intervals. Nothing in the "gay ideology" can, or even seriously tries, to explain or defend the exclusiveness or permanence of same-sex partnerships or their limitation to couples. The practice and experience of homosexual relationships is dramatic confirmation that, once one departs from the institution of marriage as a committed, exclusive and permanent sexual relationship between a woman and a man, there are no solid grounds for making one’s sexual relationships even imitate real marriage. As careful large-scale studies have shown, and “anecdotal” historical testimony amply confirms, there are practically no homosexual couples, even long-term couples, to whom sexual exclusivity as a principle, and real mutual commitment to it in practice, make any sense.
vjtorley
October 10, 2009
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The list at 68 demonstrates what I stated earlier, that our conscience, our voice of right and wrong, is based largely on the knowledge which informs it. The Hebrews and Egyptians both recognized the immorality of adultery. But for the Hebrews, the greatest moral imperative was to worship only the God of their forefathers, the God of the Bible. The Egyptians, while having a sense of right and wrong, lived their lives unaware of the most important moral law. Many of the Hebrew laws showed what was right or wrong in what otherwise could have been gray areas. How could an uninformed conscience ever know that a man should provide offspring for his deceased brother? Didn't Saul persecute Christians with a clean conscience until he learned that it was wrong? At least according to the scriptures, the conscience does not contain a complete, built-in understanding of all that is right and wrong. Most people seem hardwired to know that it's wrong to cause suffering. But the conscience is dependent on accurate knowledge. Otherwise, why would God tell Adam not to eat from the tree?ScottAndrews
October 10, 2009
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Absolutely! (my answer to the original question for the record). Absolute moral values are discovered, much like mathematical facts. They could careless about what we think about them - they just are.absolutist
October 10, 2009
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----Mark Frank: “I don’t understand why you insist that someone who has not “apprehended the moral law” (which includes apparently devote Muslims) lacks a moral code or will be less inclined to consider altruistic options. You can have strong feelings about how you ought to act even you think it is just a matter of opinion. I can have strong feelings about what art should be preserved even though it is widely accepted that what is good art is a matter of opinion.” I suspect that most people, including atheists, have some kind of moral code. The challenge, though, is this: Is the person conformed to the code, or is the code conformed to the person. The natural moral law makes basic minimum demands on human behavior, far less taxing, by the way, than the advanced moral law associated with Christian morality. In both cases, however, the law sets a standard and, quite often, the individual must exert himself to meet those demands, requiring in some cases costly behavioral and attitudinal changes. In this case, there is a recognizable gap between where the person is and where he ought to be. Thus, someone recognizes that he angers too easily, or obsesses over sexual matters, or resents someone else’s success, or gossips, or misrepresents himself in a business situation. He recognizes these gaps only because the objective moral code is there putting the searchlight on his behavior. Coming face to face with his own inadequacies, he sets out to make changes, yet he quickly discovers that he cannot easily make those changes without a whole lot of help [don’t ask me from where (you will be scandalized). Even at that, he falls down, gets back up, falls down again, gets back up, and finds out very quickly in his futile attempts to be good how bad he is, how bad he really is. (This means that he is actually starting to become good). Even at that, he later discovers that morality doesn’t end with the natural moral law, it just starts there. What a person does, while important, is not nearly as important as WHY he does it. The natural moral law, while true, is incomplete; it cannot probe intentions. It doesn’t say a thing about inordinate pride, consuming lust, habitual laziness, hateful anger, obsessive greed, hateful envy, and all the other dispositions that cause us to misbehave in the first place. That is where the real work starts---getting at the root. So, in the face of this challenge, what kind of moral code will the atheist typically contrive for himself? Will it be one that shows him where he is with respect to where he ought to be? Not likely. He doesn’t think that there is any “ought to be.” Will it be one that challenges him to change his behavior and pay all the costs associated with those changes? More likely, he will form a code that allows him to stay pretty much as he is, one that plays to his strengths and conveniently ignores his weaknesses. Will he put the searchlight on his intentions? Why should he? He hasn’t even approached the behavior issue in any realistic way. Will he stumble, fall, and get back up in his attempt to be good. Not likely, because he doesn’t believe that there is any such thing a “good.” Why should one go on such a difficult journey, especially without any spiritual help, when he can formulate a morality that will allow him to simply stay home, rest easy, and build the code around his present attitudes, intentions, and behaviors. Better yet, no one will ever call him a hypocrite because he refuses to acknowledge the moral gap that makes hypocrisy possible.StephenB
October 10, 2009
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Brent Thanks a million. It's a great summary of a key point in Eph 4:17 - 24. (Which is not irrelevant to the focus of this thread!) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
October 10, 2009
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GEM, “BTW, Can I copy that phrase I just highlighted?” No problem.Brent
October 10, 2009
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Brent, 102:
People often do what they know is wrong. Wow! It’s the message of the Bible! And, when done on a level such as slavery—a society wide injustice that pervades the whole culture—it is that much more difficult to admit, let alone even to see due to a blinding numbness, that what is is wrong. Then, to actually make a stand and to do something about it, takes that much more strength, courage, and sacrifice—even unto death. So, that’s how “[people could] accept its practice as moral for hundreds, if not thousands, of years.”
Excellent. BTW, Can I copy that phrase I just highlighted? And, on the wider question it is plain that the issue of whether an act X is wrong -- and a lesser of evils is still wrong (for whoever posed the well if you don't do it I will blow up NYC pseudo-dilemma) -- boils down to the dilemma that unless reality is grounded in a root that inherently makes oughtness a real thing, isness trumps oughtness. Thus, the infamous is-ought gap and implicit or blatant radical relativism of modern and ultramodern systems of thought. In short, these systems impose today's version of blinding numbness. That is why benumbed people, today, can look at a 43 YO man luring a 13 YO girl naked into a hot tub, then drugging and committing various sexual acts on her in the teeth of her protests and try to wriggle out of the plain wrongness of it. If we can see the moral numbness of the slave holders and racists of yore, why can we not see the same on our preferred sins of today? Blinding numbness, our own version, it seems. Let's hope it will not endure for hundreds of years. And, if we do see that the act such as Mr Polanski did is wrong (and whether the victim says she got over it or not is irrelevant to whether it is wrong), then it raises the perhaps very unwelcome issue that worldviews that cannot -- yes, cannot -- ground oughtness as a real not a perception or a balance of power, are to extremely high probability, both incorrect and enablers of wrong. For, oughtness is by direct experience deniable on pain of absurdities as we have seen, very, very real. (VJT has raised a significant point, and SB too.) A mirror is now being held up to our civlisation, and it is not looking too pretty. Time for metanoia -- a fundamental, morally tinged change of mindset -- methinks. GEM of TKI PS: I see some pretty strong editorial stances. They leave me a bit uncomfortable in part, but I can see the point, especially after some recent threads.kairosfocus
October 10, 2009
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My but we do have a real quandary here. Relative morality, social morality, apologetic morality, absolute morality, and much more. Using social morality (the law) as a standard for a moment we must come to the conclusion that Polanski is guilty of breaking a social compact. Even in Hollywood it was illegal for a 44 year old man to drug, rape and sodomize a 13 year old girl. For that he must be punished despite his fame and fortune and despite the fact that he evaded the law for 30 years or so. Social morality and "ultimate" morality must be separated, just for a moment, to clarify the situation. I went to the bank on Wednesday afternoon and discovered it to be closed. I inquired of an acquaintance why the bank closed on Wednesday at noon and was surprised at the answer. They close because that was the time the slave market used to open. (I live in a former slave state.) He also opined that the reason for that closing was probably not even remembered by most people. The banks, and other business, did it simply because they had always done it. It is neither right or wrong; moral or immoral. It's just done. I read an account one time, written by an anthropologist about his experiences in a remote tribe somewhere. Sorry, but I do not remember the specifics. He entered a village and began to study the language and customs and no one seemed to mind that he was there. They were neither friendly nor hostile and they would speak to him if he asked a question but no one volunteered anything unless he asked a question. One day he befriended an older woman and began to assist her in her chores and eventually he took up residence in her home with only the intention of helping her. When he moved in the villagers entirely changed their attitude towards him. The villagers knew that a young man would move into a house with an older woman only if he were her son. To them the woman became his mother. That gave him an identity to the villagers where he had previously had no identity and they could simply not relate to him because they did not know who he was. The story went on from there. That situation carried on for a year or more and he continued his study of their culture until one day some of the elders approached him in a solemn manner and suggested to him that his mother was getting too old and infirm and it was now time to take her "for a walk." After a period of confusion he finally realized that the elders now expected him to take her into the jungle and kill her! Needless to say, he was shocked, but he was assured that this was the only thing open to him. He further realized that his "mother" expected the same of him. To those villagers that was the way it had always been done and to do otherwise was unthinkable. We on the other hand do exactly the opposite. We dote on our mothers and care for them and protect them and prolong their lives as long as possible. We expend huge resources in medical care and time and effort and to do otherwise would be unthinkable. I do not know where the ultimate morality exists but as a matter of fact it must exist. If there is no ultimate morality there can be no right or wrong and just attempting to "fit in" cannot be a rational solution or condition. It is not rational to believe that everything is flexible and that we may measure it with a rubber yardstick of our own choosing. If that were rational we could have no law or social order of any kind. Everyone could just produce their own yardstick and declare that they would recognize no other as being legitimate; and they would be right! Moreover, any society could get together and do the same and declare that it was legitimate. That is what the slave states did. They liked the idea of free labor and rationalized their way into accepting slavery as the natural order of things. The tribe living in the jungle had done the same thing, probably a long time ago. They did not like the responsibility of taking care of the old and infirm so they simply killed them. Eventually they were able to simply declare that they had always done that and the problem disappeared. That did not make it right or moral. We must stake out right and wrong or there can be no law and no order. Do it today and tomorrow it will come back to bite us in very unpleasant ways. Today we have abortion and tomorrow we will kill babies until their second birthday. It is a slippery slope and it is all downhill. Oh; what to do? The military offers a possible solution as an example. I believe they call it "topping" or something like that. The objective is to train leaders to step back from the action on a regular basis and look at the larger picture rather than developing a tunnel vision of a tiny piece of the action. By stepping back and looking around they get a more strategic view and prevent the enemy from flanking their position or taking other offensive measures. In matters of morality the same sort of stepping back would serve us well. Ultimately, morality is just an extension of common sense because we all know how we want to be treated and we know that others are just like ourselves. If you do not want to be kidnapped, perhaps it might be wise not to kidnap others. That's not too complicated.PhilipW
October 10, 2009
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