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Child Rape in a Materialist World

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Here are the facts concerning the Roman Polanski case:  Polanski gave a Quaalude to a 13 year-old child; instructed her to get naked and enter a Jacuzzi; refused to take her home when she asked; performed oral sex on her as she asked him to stop; raped her (no, not the “statutory” kind, the “forcible” kind); and sodomized her.  In a plea bargain Polanski pled to unlawful sex with a minor.

As is common knowledge, Polanski has his defenders because he has made some terrific movies.  For example, critic Tom Shales says:  “There is, apparently, more to this crime than it would seem, and it may sound like a hollow defense, but in Hollywood I am not sure a 13-year-old is really a 13-year-old.”

Here’s today’s question:  “Is it wrong in all times and at all places (even Hollywood) for a 44 year-old man to drug, rape and sodomize a 13 year-old girl?”

For our materialist friends who answer “yes” to the question (as I hope you will), I have a follow-up question:  “How can you know that you are right and Polanski’s defenders are wrong?”

 UPDATE:

At first the materialists dodged my second (and much more important) question.  But then a brave soul who calls himself “camanintx” took up for the materialists the gauntlet I had thrown down, and we had the following exchange:

 

Barry:  How can you know that you are right and Polanski’s defenders are wrong?”

 

camanintx:  Because the society in which I and Polanski (at the time) live in define it as such. Had Polanski lived in 6th century Arabia, he probably would have been treated differently, no?

 

Barry:   Let’s assume for the sake of argument that drugging, raping and sodomizing a young girl was considered moral behavior in Arabia between the years 501 and 600 AD [I by no means concede that, but will accept it arguendo].  On the basis of your response, camanintx, I assume you would say that the fact that it was considered moral behavior in the society in which it occurred, is in fact determinative of the morality of the behavior, and therefore if Polanski had done what he did in that place and time it would have been moral. Is that what you are saying?

 camanintx:  Since morality is a subjective term, yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

 Thank you, camanintx, for that enlightening exchange.  Nietzsche would have been very proud of you for not flinching away from the nihilistic conclusions compelled by your premises.  You have truly gone “beyond good and evil.”  Roman Polanski was not immoral, must unlucky.  Cruel fate dictated that by the merest whim of fickle chance he happened to live in a society that, for whatever reason, condemns drugging, raping and sodomizing young girls.  If he had lived in a different society, what he did would not have been wrong.  Fortunately for the rest of us, your views remain in the minority (at least for now), and for that reason moral progress remains possible. 

 I invite our readers to evaluate camanintx’s views in light of our own very recent history in this country.  I grew up in the 1960’s in a state of the old Confederacy, and as I was growing up I heard about the condition of black people in earlier times.  Even as late as 1955, it was taken for granted in the southern United States that black people are inferior to white people and therefore have no claim to equal rights under the law.  They were turned away from the polls, made to sit in the back of public busses, and segregated into inferior schools, among a host of other indignities too numerous to catalogue here.  Now, the majority of the people in the South at the time considered this state of affairs to be altogether moral. 

 Think about that.  Under camanintx’s view the “is” of a society defines the “ought” of that society.  I assume camanintx is not a racist and that he personally believes that the conditions under which black people were forced to live in say, 1955 Alabama, were intolerable.  But if he had lived in Alabama in 1955 on what grounds could he have pressed for a change to the status quo?  He would have been in a quandary, because his premises compel him to affirm – as he did in response to my query – that the present state of affairs for a society DEFINES morality in that society. 

 Therefore, according to camanintx, if he had lived in Alabama in 1955, his logic would have compelled him to affirm that racial hatred and intolerance is fine and dandy, morally speaking.  The only thing he could have said is, “While I cannot say racial hatred and intolerance is in any sense “immoral,” I personally do not prefer it, and therefore we should change our laws and behavior to eliminate those blights on our land.”  To which, the all-too-easy response from a southern racist would have been:  “I prefer the status quo, and who is to say that your personal preference is better than mine.”  At this point camanintx would have been struck silent, because there is no answer to the southern racist’s rejoinder. 

 Which brings us back full circle to Roman Polanski.  Has anyone considered the irony of the materialists’ defense of Polanski’s actions?  Both of Polanski’s parents were imprisoned in Nazi concentration camps.  His mother died at Auschwitz.  Never let us forget that the Nazis came to power in a fair election, and the people of Germany never revolted against their polices.  The “final solution” was perfectly lawful in the sense that it did not violate the internal laws of the nation in which it occurred.  Therefore, camanintx’s logic compels the conclusion that the “is” of the final solution defined the “ought” of the matter, and Polanski’s mother’s death at the hands of the Nazis was in no sense “immoral.”  The irony is that Polanski’s defenders are bringing to bear the same moral relativism that led to the death of Polanski’s mother.

 Sadly, I believe we are losing this battle.  Views like camanintx’s would have been almost literally unthinkable 30 or even 20 years ago.  Now they are commonplace.  How long before they are the majority?  The other day I saw a bumper sticker:  “So many Christians, so few lions.”  I am afraid; for myself, yes, but even more so for my children and grandchildren, whom, I fear, will grow up in a society where every last vestige of the Judeo-Christian ethic will have been jettisoned from our institutions.  That bumper sticker was unthinkable 30 years ago.  What will be “thinkable” 30 years hence that is unthinkable now?  We are going to find out, aren’t we?

Comments
And what is the biblical view of this . Editor's note: We will not allow you to change the subject toward your warped interpretation of scripture. If you have a comment germane to the post, by all means submit it. Do not attempt to change the subject.hdx
October 8, 2009
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quaggy, you don't seem to understand the question, so I will explain it to you one more time. The issue is NOT whether materialist defend the rape of 13 year-old girls. As I have shown, some of them do and some of them do not. The issue is this: For the materialist that does not defend the rape of 13 year old girls, on what GROUNDS do you oppose it? Do you oppose it on grounds of personal preference? [see Dr. Dembski's post above.] Or do you appeal to a moral order outside yourself? If the latter, what is the basis of that moral order? This last question is the real issue.Barry Arrington
October 8, 2009
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Quaggy,
and I never saw any of the materialists supporting sexual slavery or pedophilia
From Barry,
For example, critic Tom Shales says: “There is, apparently, more to this crime than it would seem, and it may sound like a hollow defense, but in Hollywood I am not sure a 13-year-old is really a 13-year-old.”
So basically just leave it in the malleable, subjective gray area right? Avoid taking an absolute stance to maintain the image of being "moderate" at the cost of leaving the atrocity at hand up in the air. That couldn't possibly be considered defending or supporting these acts could it? I believe Dr. Dembski was referring to the logically conclusive consequences of those who adopt the materialist mindset in general, including those who acknowledge and exercise moral relativity to extremes in order to remain justified within their own set ever-changing, superficially-defined, and often times popularity-based moral standards. Take it from Tom Shales or Whoopy Goldberg on that one.PaulN
October 8, 2009
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I have a daughter, and plenty of instincts to protect her, I also like living in communities where I feel that I and my family are safe (it would be a bad survival tactic to do otherwise). I wouldn't want someone to force themselves on my daughter, and thanks to an ability to feel empathy I don't want to see that happen to anyone else. The result is a belief that it is wrong for people to force sexual acts on unwilling participants. Given that the Bible has this piece of advice . . . Editors: Your warped interpretation of the Bible is not the subject of this post.BillB
October 8, 2009
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Lets say I'm a atheist materialist that favors property rights. No god, I just like my stuff. The first and foremost property is one's own body. Violations to that right (and particularly minors who are less able to defend their right) should be prosecuted. I suppose this blog argues all legal codes ever evolved from the Old Testament? You should really take a look at Editor: SNIP. your warped interpretation of the Old Testament is not the subject of this post. RobertC
October 8, 2009
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Dr. Dembski:
he obsession is not with us but with the materialists who are perfectly serious in their moral outrage and indignation, though not at pedophilia or sexual slavery it seems
I suppose now that this will be my coda, but, say what? I have followed the ongoing discussion, spread now over 4 blog posts, and I never saw any of the materialists supporting sexual slavery or pedophilia (which wasn't brought up until now). There presumed support for sexual slavery was a position imputed to them by Barry because he didn't accept the answer they provided because it wasn't one of the rather limited set of options provided with the original question.quaggy
October 8, 2009
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BGOG (now shown the door): The obsession is not with us but with the materialists who are perfectly serious in their moral outrage and indignation, though not at pedophilia or sexual slavery it seems, but at challenges to Darwinism, abortion, homosexuality, etc. Such outrage, however, begs a justification. People have no right be outraged over matters of taste, as in, "Oh, you like Camembert but that's really gross; discriminating cheese-lovers prefer Gorgonzola." Thus when Dawkins goes on about how gentle a soul he is and that it's morally preferable to be good without God holding a gun to our heads, he has still not provided a justification for how he decides moral questions. Do such decisions derive from our evolutionary programming in our hunter gatherer pasts? What's the evidence there? Who knows what our ancestors really thought and did? Is morality simply something we make up? Is it an illusion, as E. O. Wilson claims, fobbed off on us by our genes to get us to cooperate? If so, why not cheer Polanski on when he has the wisdom to see through the illusion and sample the choice flesh of a 13-year old? William Dembski
October 8, 2009
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Well, since StephenB tells me I am a materialist (Thanks, Steve, for liberating me!), allow me to answer. As Todd said, it is demonstrably wrong because, by acting without consent, he violated her liberty. It is made worse by the fact that the girl was so young. But the wrong stands regardless of the persons age. As a member of civil society, I have no problem at all with Polanski being prosecuted according to the law. His status as a gifted movie director should not exempt him from getting the same exact punishment as Warren Jeffs.quaggy
October 8, 2009
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I hope we can all agree to "yes" as well. How can any of us know we're right? What causes us all to come to that conclusion? Here is a list of things that my brain runs through which leads me to say "whoa, the dude was way wrong" 1. US laws are very clear on this. He broke laws. I think it's sick how people are defending him and wanting to let him off the hook. 2. Empathy. I have a daughter, a mother, a wife and a sister, etc. Something like this would have ruined their lives, so it's easy to assume this made the 13 year old's life very hard. (not to mention how her parents must have felt) 3. Logic. His actions had negative consequences toward himself and a non-developed human. (a child)Fross
October 8, 2009
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BGOG, sorry to see you go but why couldn't you just answer the question? Nobody was asking you to explain or justify your answer.tribune7
October 8, 2009
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This blog seems to have an obsession with asking the same question over and over, just phrased differently. How many times can you ask an atheist "where do you get your ethical guidelines if you have no ultimate moral framework (ie the Abrahamic god)to hang them on??" before you get tired of it and move on. BGOG is no longer with us. Everyone who comes to UD does so voluntarily. If you don't like the subject of a post, don't read it. Go to another site that has posts more to your liking. It is rude for a dinner guest to tell his host that the food is odious. It is just as rude to come into UD's house and tell the posters their posts are unworthy for discussion. You can criticize the merits of the post to your heart's content; that is valid argument. But you may not call into question the validity of posting on a particular subject. UD’s moderation policy is amended as follows: “Comments that do not attempt to add to a discussion but instead condemn the entire discussion (examples: “You post on this subject too often.” or “What does this have to do with science?”) will be deleted, and the commenter is subject to being placed in the moderation queue or banned.BGOG
October 8, 2009
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Even if the legal age of consent was 13, rape is still rape and a violation of the victim's right to liberty. I don't see how anyone could defend Polanski of the young woman was 20, never mind 13!todd
October 8, 2009
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