Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Christian Darwinism and the Problem of Apriori Intent.

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According to the Bible, God created the universe so that He and His creatures could enter into an eternal, loving relationship. Christians, insofar as they accept that teaching, can readily understand their role in the cosmos and the broader context in which they find life’s meaning. In this context, God acted as both creator and designer: God brought time, space, and matter into existence and then “formed” man out of the dust of the earth.

Like all visionary designers, the God of the Bible knew exactly what He wanted and, like all competent builders, He saw to it that His finished product would conform to his original specifications. What is the point of being an all-wise Creator if you don’t know what you want to create? What is the point of being an omnipotent creator if you can’t get what you want? What is the point of being an all-good creator if you don’t care what you get? Whether or not God used an evolutionary process to produce man’s body is irrelevant to the point. What matters is that, regardless of how God might have arranged for the arrival of homo-sapiens—slowly and gradually, quickly, or in spurts– He intended that result and nothing else. From a Biblical perspective, evolution, if true, could only be a maturation process that unfolds according to the Creator’s plan and produces a result that conforms to His specifications.

Opposing the teleological paradigm, Darwinists posit a non-teleological model, a “purposeless, mindless process that did not have man in mind.” According to this world view, evolutionary change does not aim toward any final end because there is no final end to move toward. Evolution doesn’t know where it is going because the mutations are random and the environment, which determines the selection process, also doesn’t know where it is going. The process does not “unfold” or “mature” because there is no plan to direct the unfolding, nor is there a final end point into which the process can mature. So the purposeless, process moves aimlessly along, producing emergent mindless accidents for no reason at all.

Christian Darwinists, who make up the majority of Theistic Evolutionists, seek to reconcile the Biblical teleological with the Darwinian non-teleological model. In their view, a purposeful, mindful God could have used a purposeless, mindless process to create biodiversity. Of course, anyone who is capable of reasoning in the abstract will immediately understand that such a synthesis is logically impossible. As philosopher Jay Richards points out, not even God can direct an undirected process. (God cannot lie or contradict himself). Even so, Christian Darwinists try to make this impossible marriage work by using the rhetoric of design while arguing on behalf of non-design.

As the story goes, God designed an undesigned process with no specific end in mind, producing an accidental result, which was partly, but not wholly, foreseeable, and yet sufficiently acceptable to work with. In this view, evolution does not, as would be consistent with Scripture, “unfold” according to a plan. On the contrary, it “emerges” into whatever it will with no guiding principle to direct it, finally producing a species of some indeterminate, unspecified quality. Not to worry, though, because once this “something or other” arrives, God will be flexible enough to save whatever kind of thing it is. Here we have a Creator who designs by not designing, eschews apriori intent, allows His left hand not to know what His right hand is doing, and prefers accidents to specified outcomes. Indeed, The God of the Christian Darwinists does not even know what He is producing until He produces it. At that point, He looks back as if to say, “What do we have here? I wonder who initiated this process. Oh wait, that was me!”

George Coyne (a Vatican astronomer who was re-assigned because of his anti-Catholic posturing) claims that “not even God could know with certainty” that “human life would come to be.” [I suppose it would be useless to inform Coyne that God must be omniscient to be God].

Ken Miller, Darwin’s faithful disciple, informs us that “mankind’s appearance on this planet was not preordained, that we are here… as an afterthought, a minor detail, a happenstance in a history that might just as well have left us out.” [Yet the God of Miller’s Bible says, “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you”].

Even John Polkinghorne (who, ironically, is critical of the Darwinian paradigm in other contexts and who claims to believe in a teleological universe) writes this: “An evolutionary universe is theologically understood as a creation allowed to make itself.” [But that statement begs the question. Can an evolving universe “make itself” into anything at all or must the finished conform to the designers intentions? The purpose, after all, does not come out of the process; the process comes out of the purpose].

Darrell Falk and Francis Collins of Biologos fame also seem to discount the Creator’s apriori intent. To be sure, both men argue for a purposeful creation, sort of, but when push comes to shove, the non-teleology crowds out the teleology. As Falk has written, “I believe in Darwinian evolution.”

Ironically, Christian Darwinists and their sympathizers, while disavowing God’s omniscience, often pay tribute to His limited forecasting skills. Miller, for example, informs us that God knew enough about evolution to predict the arrival of a being capable of thinking and worshipping, but not enough to predict that this being would be a homo-sapiens. Thus, evolution’s outcome could just as easily have been a “big brained dinosaur,” or a “mollusk” [Clearly, Miller is confused about the relative degrees of difficulty involved in his own scenario. To cause and predict the arrival of a rational being, which requires both a body and soul, is a far more daunting enterprise than to cause and predict the arrival of an upright biped, which requires only a body].

In the final analysis, Christian Darwinists do not understand what it means to “begin with the end in mind.” Having obsessed over what they perceive to be the Creator’s process, they lose track of the Creator’s project, which begins with the Creator’s apriori intent.

Comments
What is the point of being an all-wise Creator if you don’t know what you want to create? What is the point of being an omnipotent creator if you can’t get what you want? What is the point of being an all-good creator if you don’t care what you get?
How is any of that relevant to your argument? God, being all wise, knew exactly what he wanted? God, being omnipotent, got exactly what he wanted? God, being all-good, cared about what he would get? Therefore Christian Darwinists are wrong?Mung
July 5, 2011
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Like all visionary designers, the God of the Bible knew exactly what He wanted and, like all competent builders, He saw to it that His finished product would conform to his original specifications.
I think the results of this was an agreement that God is not like all visionary designers and that God is not like all competent builders. So toss that out. [You don't need it for your argument, right?] God could be an incompetent builder, or an incompetent designer, and that would not change the argument. God's competency as a designer or builder has no bearing on whether He get's what He intended.Mung
July 5, 2011
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According to the Bible, God created the universe so that He and His creatures could enter into an eternal, loving relationship.
All His creatures, or just some of them. Just man?
Christians, insofar as they accept that teaching, can readily understand their role in the cosmos and the broader context in which they find life’s meaning.
Is this going somewhere?
In this context, God acted as both creator and designer: God brought time, space, and matter into existence and then “formed” man out of the dust of the earth.
ok, I get the creator part, but the designer part? I'm not seeing it.Mung
July 5, 2011
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StephenB:
Your other responses do not have enough intellectual content to qualify as objections. You are wasting everyone’s time. Move along to another thread.
I don't think I'll leave. I really rather like being insulted. Makes me feel intellectually superior. Plus, I'll need this experience when I convert to Christian Darwinism.Mung
July 5, 2011
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I have already pointed out that there are many lines of descent, which, in that context, allow for many possible outcomes. I have also pointed out that there is only one possible outcome for any one line of descent, which is, in this case, homo-sapiens. Nullasulas understands, you don’t.
nullasaluas doesn't understand incoherence any better than do I. A line of descent cannot have both many possible outcomes and only one possible outcome. Perhaps what you mean to say is that there are many lines of descent, each with only one possible outcome. StephenB:
We are talking about the final outcome.
THE "final outcome" of WHAT? StephenB:
It is not logically possible for evolution to produce a final outcome of homosapiens and also to produce a final outcome of a mollusk or a big-brained dinosaur.
So you've changed your mind? Otherwise you are indeed arguing that it is not logically possible for evolution produce more than one final outcome. If it's logically possible for evolution to have many final outcomes, it's logically possible for evolution to produce all those things and for them all to be a final outcome.
I have already pointed out that there are many lines of descent, which, in that context, allow for many possible outcomes.
Are those outcomes final outcomes?Mung
July 5, 2011
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Mung cites these two posts (presumably in an attempt to show a contradiction): --nullusalus: "I don’t think that’ what StephenB is saying. In fact, I’m pretty sure StephenB would agree that evolution can produce multiple desired outcomes, not just ‘man’. --"StephenB: "We are talking about the final outcome of only one line of descent." I have already pointed out that there are many lines of descent, which, in that context, allow for many possible outcomes. I have also pointed out that there is only one possible outcome for any one line of descent, which is, in this case, homo-sapiens. Nullasulas understands, you don't. [Scripture also tells us that it is NOT POSSIBLE that God could lie or contradict himself.] ---Mung: "The text, please. It does not exist." How can anyone be so comfortable in their ignorance? Titus 1:2 ---"In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began" Hebrews 6:18 "God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged." Samuel 15:29: "He who is the glory of Israel cannot lie or change his mind" Numbers 23:15 "God is not a man that He should lie" Your other responses do not have enough intellectual content to qualify as objections. You are wasting everyone's time. Move along to another thread.StephenB
July 2, 2011
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Scripture also tells us that it is NOT POSSIBLE that God could lie or contradict himself.
The text, please. It does not exist.Mung
July 1, 2011
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As soon as you acknowledge that the process had any purpose at all, Darwin has left the building.
Assuming this is true, so what? Assuming that this assertion isn't true, so what? If all that is required is purpose, why did you introduce God's a priori intent?Mung
July 1, 2011
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If the process is guided, then the FINAL OUTCOME has been decided in advance?
Is that a question? Does a guided missile always and without fail hit it's target? If a guided missile fails to hit it's target does it follow that the guided missile was not guided?Mung
July 1, 2011
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If we are going to use the dice analogy, and if the process is totally random and unguided, that is, if all the numbers have an equal chance of coming up, then only one roll of the dice is allowed.
What is it in the OP that allows only one roll of the dice? How many rolls did God intend? See my post at #4:
Maybe God doesn’t fit neatly into a box of your making.
Mung
July 1, 2011
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nullusalus:
I don’t think that’s what StephenB is saying. In fact, I’m pretty sure StephenB would agree that evolution can produce multiple desired outcomes, not just ‘man’.
StephenB:
We are talking about the final outcome of only one line of descent.
Mung
July 1, 2011
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--Mung: "Scripture tells us that with God all things are possible." Yes, but you must understand that statement in context. Scripture also tells us that it is NOT POSSIBLE that God could lie or contradict himself. You cannot take one part of Scripture at the exclusion of the whole and hope to understand the message. In a smaller and less significant way, you cannot take one sentence out of my OP, ignore the context, and hope to understand the message. ---Mung: "But can one have a guided process in which all future actualized outcomes have not been decided in advance?" You are still missing the point. If the process is guided, then the FINAL OUTCOME has been decided in advance? If the process is unguided, then the final outcome has not been decided in advance. That is because a guided process is being guided toward something, namely, THE desired outcome--not one of many possible outcomes.StephenB
July 1, 2011
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---nullasalus: "I don’t think that’s what StephenB is saying. In fact, I’m pretty sure StephenB would agree that evolution can produce multiple desired outcomes, not just ‘man.’ You are right, of course. Thank you.StephenB
July 1, 2011
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---Bilbo: :But “the final outcome” for a Darwinian can be defined as, “A single set consisting of all the different species that have ever existed.” There is no contradiction.” We are talking about the final outcome of only one line of descent. So, if you accept conventional wisdom we get something like…….Neanderthal>>>Cro-Magnon>>>>Homo Sapiens, the latter of which is the final outcome. Final species means final species and there can only be one. Naturally, there can be billions within that species and, naturally, there can be many different lines of descent producing parallel species. ---Mung: “It is also true that it won’t take many rolls before God ends up creating an intelligent creature.” If we are going to use the dice analogy, and if the process is totally random and unguided, that is, if all the numbers have an equal chance of coming up, then only one roll of the dice is allowed. If God keeps rolling the dice until He gets what He wants, then the process is being guided to produce a specific outcome, which means that it was NOT a Darwinian process at all. With the Darwinian scheme, all possible outcomes must be given a fair chance to appear, which means that God’s apriori intent will likely not be realized. Returning to the dice, if God is using a totally random process, any number from two to twelve could come up, which means that if He intends for seven to come up He will likely not get what He wants. The only way God can get what He wants [with fair dice] is to keep throwing until the number seven appears. In that case, He guides or constrains randomness toward a final result, the very opposite of Darwinism, which will allow for any result at all. In evolutionary terms, God can either use a designed process to get what He wants or He can use a totally random process that will likely produce what He doesn’t want. It is not possible for God to use totally random process and be infallibly assured of getting exactly what He wants. It simply isn’t possible. If God gets exactly what He wants, it means that the process was not totally random. ---“Sure, homo-sapiens was God’s a priori intent. but not because the game was rigged to favor homo sapiens.” As soon as you acknowledge that the process had any purpose at all, Darwin has left the building.StephenB
July 1, 2011
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I don’t think that’s what StephenB is saying. In fact, I’m pretty sure StephenB would agree that evolution can produce multiple desired outcomes, not just ‘man’.
I'm not sure what you mean by desired outcomes. But that's the way I read the OP. He began with the statement that "According to the Bible, God created the universe so that He and His creatures could enter into an eternal, loving relationship." Does that require the presence of man? Does God not have a loving relationship with the rest of his creation? "Whether or not God used an evolutionary process to produce man’s body is irrelevant to the point. What matters is that, regardless of how God might have arranged for the arrival of homo-sapiens—slowly and gradually, quickly, or in spurts– He intended that result and nothing else." We have a space of possibilities in which not all possibilities are actualized. How is that incompatible with God? Scripture tells us that with God all things are possible. One of those actualized outcomes happens to be man. God says, I'll make that one in my image. How is that incompatible with God? Now I agree completely with StephenB that one cannot rationally have an unguided guided process. But can one have a guided process in which all future actualized outcomes have not been decided in advance?Mung
June 30, 2011
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Mung, I don't think that's what StephenB is saying. In fact, I'm pretty sure StephenB would agree that evolution can produce multiple desired outcomes, not just 'man'. I think this may work as an example. Let's go with God rolling dice again. It's entirely possible for God to roll the dice 6 times and to get, as desired, any string of 6 numbers: All 6s, all 1s, a mix of 1s and 6s, 1 2 3 4 5 6, etc. It is not possible for God to roll the die once, and to get both a 2 and a 4. If God is omniscient and omnipotent, it is not possible for God to desire a 4, to roll the dice, and to get a 1. Likewise, it is not possible for God to roll the dice and be surprised at the result, given omniscience and omnipotence. And in none of the cases of God rolling the dice is the outcome of the dice random. Certainly not if random means 'unknown and unforeseen and unintended'.nullasalus
June 29, 2011
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StephenB:
We are talking about the final outcome. It is not logically possible for evolution to produce a final outcome of homosapiens and also to produce a final outcome of a mollusk or a big-brained dinosaur.
That's because you're defining evolution as a process which can have only a single final outcome. No CD is going to accept that premise.Mung
June 29, 2011
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But “the final outcome” for a Darwinian can be defined as, “A single set consisting of all the different species that have ever existed.” There is no contradiction.
Precisely. Which is why SB must specify in advance that homo-sapiens was the only intended outcome. And then he must frame his argument around that, while not begging the question as to whether homo-sapiens was indeed the only intended outcome. Take the dice example. God maps the combinations of faces to kinds of creatures. Up to 36 possible creatures. God throws the dice. He knows which creatures are possible. He decides he's going to create whichever one comes up. Let's say he's decided that all combinations which result in a seven will be some intelligent creature such as homo sapiens, but only one combination will be homo-sapiens itself. All other combinations and he will create a non-intelligent creature. While it is true that one a single toss a non-intelligent creature is more likely, it is also true that an intelligent creature is more likely than a specific non-intelligent creature. It is also true that it won't take many rolls before God ends up creating an intelligent creature. So what was God's a priori intent? Was it homo-sapiens. Was it that which he did create, of which homo-sapiens was a possibility, but one that may or may not have been actualized? Sure, homo-sapiens was God's a priori intent. but not because the game was rigged to favor homo sapiens. This is all sort of weird anyways. Doesn't Scripture teach that what appears random to us isn't necessarily so? That's what I would confront CD's with.Mung
June 29, 2011
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Stephen B: "My argument cannot not work because the law of non-contradiction confirms it." But "the final outcome" for a Darwinian can be defined as, "A single set consisting of all the different species that have ever existed." There is no contradiction. "First, An apple tree does not resemble Darwinian evolution." If we grant the Darwinian view that all of life is descended from one or just a few bacteria, then yes, there is a resemblance. "Second, it produces only one species–apples. That each apple is different from the other is irrelevant to the point that all are of the same species." But given the Darwinian view, all the species are in the same category known as living organisms. It is not irrelevant. "If the final outcome of evolution is homo-sapiens, then it cannot also be a mollusk or a big-brained dinosaur. The finished product may, and obviously will, consist of many different kinds of homo-sapiens, but it will not, nor can it, also consists of many different kinds of mollusks or big-brained dinosaurs." Look, if your argument really held, then it would also refute the view that the final outcome of God's creation was human beings.Bilbo I
June 29, 2011
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---Bilbo: "I don’t your argument works. Let’s take the analogy of an apple tree. It’s final outcome will be apples, though each apple is different from all the other apples. The final outcome of Darwinian evolution (assuming that is the process that brought about all the different forms of life, which both of us doubt) is living organisms, though each organism differs from all the other organisms." My argument cannot not work because the law of non-contradiction confirms it. First, An apple tree does not resemble Darwinian evolution. Second, it produces only one species--apples. That each apple is different from the other is irrelevant to the point that all are of the same species. If the final outcome of evolution is homo-sapiens, then it cannot also be a mollusk or a big-brained dinosaur. The finished product may, and obviously will, consist of many different kinds of homo-sapiens, but it will not, nor can it, also consists of many different kinds of mollusks or big-brained dinosaurs.StephenB
June 27, 2011
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Stephen B: "We are talking about the final outcome. It is not logically possible for evolution to produce a final outcome of homosapiens and also to produce a final outcome of a mollusk or a big-brained dinosaur." I don't your argument works. Let's take the analogy of an apple tree. It's final outcome will be apples, though each apple is different from all the other apples. The final outcome of Darwinian evolution (assuming that is the process that brought about all the different forms of life, which both of us doubt) is living organisms, though each organism differs from all the other organisms.Bilbo I
June 27, 2011
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..."if God knows that a random process, even though it can produce many different outcomes, will in fact produce the one outcome that He wants, then God can use that random process to produce the desired outcome." We are talking about the final outcome. It is not logically possible for evolution to produce a final outcome of homosapiens and also to produce a final outcome of a mollusk or a big-brained dinosaur.StephenB
June 26, 2011
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Stephen B: "If God allows for more than one outcome, then He cannot, at the same time, insure that He achieves one and only outcome. This is the heart of the problem and the reason that God can only get exactly what He wants if He does not use a totally random process. " I agree that this is the central issue upon which we disagree. First, it is not clear to me that the Bible limits God to wanting one and only one outcome. It is possible that God could be pleased with many different outcomes. But second, if God knows that a random process, even though it can produce many different outcomes, will in fact produce the one outcome that He wants, then God can use that random process to produce the desired outcome. This does not mean that the random process cannot, in principle, produce all the other possible outcomes. It means that it will, in fact, produce only one of all those possible outcomes, and in the hypothetical (I'm not saying actual) case of 7 or of neo-Darwinism, it does in fact produce the desired outcome that God wants. So again, there is no logical inconsistency between Christianity and neo-Darwinism. It would be the same as God allowing free-will to rational creatures, who freely choose to do His will. It is logically possible for God to achieve His will in such a scenario, even though in this world, it did not happen. Likewise, it is logically possible for God to achieve His will in natural history through a random process, even though I very much doubt that is what happened.Bilbo I
June 26, 2011
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[Stephen B: :If these are fair dice, seven will probably NOT come up. Let’s say ten comes up. Thus, since God knows the future perfectly, He knows that ten will come up, which is not the result He wanted, and He also knows that seven, which is the one he really wanted, will not come up. Hence, God does not get the result He had in mind because He used a mindless process that had the capacity to produce something He didn’t have in mind.”] ---Bilbo: “Yes, but if seven came up, then God used a mindless process that had the capacity to produce something that He did have in mind. There is no logical contradiction between the randomness and God accomplishing His will. Merely a probability problem. If we are using fair dice (a totally random process) then God is allowing for more than one outcome. That is what randomness means—all possible outcomes are given a fair chance to become manifest. If God allows for more than one outcome, then He cannot, at the same time, insure that He achieves one and only outcome. This is the heart of the problem and the reason that God can only get exactly what He wants if He does not use a totally random process. Put another way, God cannot use a process similar to the throw of a dice [a totally random process] to infallibly produce a specific outcome, which is why I protested (mildly) over the analogy. [“Thus, if an omnipotent God used evolution, He did not use an undesigned, random process that is vulerable to producing many possible outcomes. Quite the contrary, He used a designed process that constrained randomness and aimed it toward the result He wanted.”] --“Again, you are not distinguishing between what God probably did, and what God must have done.” I am simply pointing out that God cannot insist on one final outcome [teleology] and, at the same time, allow for many possible final outcomes [non-teleology. This is a matter of logical necessity. Christian Darwinists do not seem to grasp the problem. [“Darwinian evolution does not allow for constrained randomness that aims for a goal; it requires total randomness that has no goal.”] ---“Yes, but if it accomplished what God wanted, then that is irrelevant.” The only way God can use randomness to insure that He gets exactly wants is to constrain it [teleology]. He cannot insure the outcome by letting randomness alone call the shots [non-teleology], as is evident from above. [“In the beginning, God decides that nature will obey him and nature, because it can do no otherwise, obeys him and produces the finished product that conforms to his original intent. Thus, His will is done, which means, in the context of our discussion, that homo-sapiens appears.”] ---“Again, I agree with you that this is probably how it happened. But that does not mean that it must have happened that way by logical necessity.” Does the Bible allow for the possibility that God created something other than, or something at variance with, that which He intended to create? I would say no. [“The outcome of the process is determined not by what God knows after the fact, but rather by what God does before the fact.”’ ---If God used a random process, then God knows what that random process will produce, before it produces it.” It’s logically possible for God to know the final outcome of a totally random process that someone else created, but it is not logically possible for God Himself to intend, and get, a specific outcome while using a totally random process. This is clear by virtue of the fact that a totally random process, by definition, is one which will allow for outcomes other than the one He intended. The issue is whether God designed the process to produce one and only one outcome or whether he put something in place that can potentially produce many possible outcomes. If He knows infallibly that it will, indeed, produce that outcome, it is not simply because [a] He knows the future before it happens but also because [b] He designed that future [and no other future] to be that way. You are trying to separate [a] from [b]. They can’t be separated. [“If we grant than God cannot achieve His will at the time and place of his choice, we are saying that He is not omnipotent, which means that there is no reason to believe that He can achieve it at all, with or without intervention.”] ---“But I’m not saying that God cannot achieve His will at the time and place of His choice. The question is how He chose to do it.” Yes, I understand. ---“But whereas I do not legislate how God must have done things, you do.” I am simply saying that God either designed the process to produce a specific outcome [allowing no other possibilities (Biblical teleology)] or else He didn’t design the process to produce a specific outcome [allowing for other possibilities [Darwinism]. It cannot be both. To point out a logical necessity is not to legislate. --“Behe claimed that randomness is real. I would not argue otherwise. ---“Later in the book, Behe offers a scenario where the “uber-physicist” chooses to actualize one of the few possible universes that would have all the right events and mutations in it. Though Behe doesn’t say that these mutations would be random, from the context that is what he is suggesting. The mutations would be infinitesimally improbable, but still not having zero improbability. So Behe is really offering a scenario where neo-Darwinism works, but only because the designer chose to actualize one of the few universes where all the incredibly improbable events and mutations occur.” I don’t think Behe is attributing total randomness to the process. In any case, He is discussing what might be possible in all possible universes. I am discussing only what can be possible for one who claims to accept Biblical teleology. The latter constraint allows for far less wiggle room. ---“My question is: in choosing to actualize such a universe, are the events in it still random, or do they become deterministic? I’m not sure of the correct answer myself. Interesting scenario. Keep in mind that all the prominent theistic evolutionists are arguing the other way, that is, they understand [as I have been arguing] that a totally random process cannot be reconciled with the idea that God achieved exactly what He wanted. They know that such a case cannot be made. That is why they argue that God did not necessarily intend the final outcome of the process. They understand that a totally random process could produce many possible outcomes.StephenB
June 25, 2011
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---Mung: "You mis-stated your second premise." No, I didn't. "nothing else" means no other acceptable outcome. ---"But God knew that seven would come up." I was assuming, for the sake of argument, that ten came up as the emprical result of the process. If the process is totally random, then many results other than ten are possible. If God wants ten, and if He uses a totally random process, He will likely not get ten. Thus, if God wants to make sure He gets a ten, and no other number, then He will not use a totally random process. What is so hard about this? ---"Seven probably WILL come up, when compared against the probability of any other number coming up." No, the probability of seven is greater than any other individual number but less than all other numbers combined. Thus, seven will probably NOT come up in one throw--just as I said. --"Confession. I like craps." You must lose a lot. ---"So God is what? Dirt and ribs? God has two legs, two arms, a torso, a head…?" How did you come up with that one?StephenB
June 25, 2011
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Stephen B: :If these are fair dice, seven will probably NOT come up. Let’s say ten comes up. Thus, since God knows the future perfectly, He knows that ten will come up, which is not the result He wanted, and He also knows that seven, which is the one he really wanted, will not come up. Hence, God does not get the result He had in mind because He used a mindless process that had the capacity to produce something He didn’t have in mind." Yes, but if seven came up, then God used a mindless process that had the capacity to produce something that He did have in mind. There is no logical contradiction between the randomness and God accomplishing His will. Merely a probability problem. "Thus, if an omnipotent God used evolution, He did not use an undesigned, random process that is vulerable to producing many possible outcomes. Quite the contrary, He used a designed process that constrained randomness and aimed it toward the result He wanted." Again, you are not distinguishing between what God probably did, and what God must have done. "Darwinian evolution does not allow for constrained randomness that aims for a goal; it requires total randomness that has no goal." Yes, but if it accomplished what God wanted, then that is irrelevant. "In the beginning, God decides that nature will obey him and nature, because it can do no otherwise, obeys him and produces the finished product that conforms to his original intent. Thus, His will is done, which means, in the context of our discussion, that homo-sapiens appears." Again, I agree with you that this is probably how it happened. But that does not mean that it must have happened that way by logical necessity. "The outcome of the process is determined not by what God knows after the fact, but rather by what God does before the fact." If God used a random process, then God knows what that random process will produce, before it produces it. "If we grant than God cannot achieve His will at the time and place of his choice, we are saying that He is not omnipotent, which means that there is no reason to believe that He can achieve it at all, with or without intervention." But I'm not saying that God cannot achieve His will at the time and place of His choice. The question is how He chose to do it. "If God cannot successfully create a portion of one universe in a timely way [homo-sapiens] what reason do we have for thinking that He will be more successful at creating multiple whole universes." But I'm not saying that He cannot successfully create a universe that conforms to His will. The question is whether He chose to do this, or whether He chose to create a large number of universes until one of them got it right. As I said, I jusd don't see why He would do it the second way. "I agree." I knew you would. But whereas I do not legislate how God must have done things, you do. "Behe does not argue for non-teleological, Darwinian evolution. If he did, He would be an anti-design, Christian Darwinist. As a design theorist, He embraces teleological evolution." Assuming that you read Behe's book, you might remember two things: 1) Behe claimed that randomness is real. Thus not all mutations are controlled by the designer. 2) Later in the book, Behe offers a scenario where the "uber-physicist" chooses to actualize one of the few possible universes that would have all the right events and mutations in it. Though Behe doesn't say that these mutations would be random, from the context that is what he is suggesting. The mutations would be infinitesimally improbable, but still not having zero improbability. So Behe is really offering a scenario where neo-Darwinism works, but only because the designer chose to actualize one of the few universes where all the incredibly improbable events and mutations occur. My question is: in choosing to actualize such a universe, are the events in it still random, or do they become deterministic? I'm not sure of the correct answer myself.Bilbo I
June 25, 2011
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StepenB:
According to the Bible, God created Adam in his own image
God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Adam was formed from the dust of the ground. Eve was formed from the rib of Adam. So God is what? Dirt and ribs? God has two legs, two arms, a torso, a head...?Mung
June 24, 2011
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10:15 PM
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Let’s say ten comes up. Thus, since God knows the future perfectly, He knows that ten will come up, which is not the result He wanted, and He also knows that seven, which is the one he really wanted, will not come up. Hence, God does not get the result He had in mind because He used a mindless process that had the capacity to produce something He didn’t have in mind.
If a ten came up, and God, knowing the future perfectly, knew that a seven would come up... ok, you lost me. What did God want. The seven that did not come up or the ten that did come up?Mung
June 24, 2011
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10:05 PM
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If these are fair dice, seven will probably NOT come up. Seven probably will come up, when compared against the probability of any other number coming up. 1 way for a 2 1 way for a 12 2 ways for a 3 2 ways for an 11 3 ways for a 4 3 ways for a 10 4 ways for a 5 4 ways for a 9 5 ways for a 6 5 ways for an 8 6 ways for a 7 Confession. I like craps.
Mung
June 24, 2011
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09:54 PM
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Let’s say ten comes up.
But God knew that seven would come up. So your claim that a ten came up violates God's a priori intent. Unless God can know one outcome but intend different outcome.Mung
June 24, 2011
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09:44 PM
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