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Christopher’s Challenge

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Christopher Hitchens is nothing if not a straight-shooter. He calls it like he sees it, and not even a vicious attack could stop him from denouncing evil, racist ideologies that are still with us today. He is also a fearless and formidable debater. In recent years, he has declared himself an anti-theist, a term he defines as follows:

You could be an atheist and wish that the belief was true. You could; I know some people who do. An antitheist, a term I’m trying to get into circulation, is someone who’s very relieved that there’s no evidence for this proposition.

On Bastille Day in 2007, in response to an article entitled What Atheists Can’t Answer by op-ed columnist Michael Gerson in The Washington Post, Christopher Hitchens threw down the gauntlet to theists:

Here is my challenge. Let Gerson name one ethical statement made, or one ethical action performed, by a believer that could not have been uttered or done by a nonbeliever. And here is my second challenge. Can any reader of this column think of a wicked statement made, or an evil action performed, precisely because of religious faith? The second question is easy to answer, is it not? The first – I have been asking it for some time – awaits a convincing reply. By what right, then, do the faithful assume this irritating mantle of righteousness? They have as much to apologize for as to explain.

Hitchens has repeated this challenge on numerous occasions since then. The first time I heard him issue this challenge, I thought: “He has a point.” Going through the Ten Commandments (a natural starting point for someone raised in the Judeo-Christian tradition), it seemed to me that the only ones that a nonbeliever couldn’t keep were the ones relating to the worship of God. But Christopher Hitchens might reasonably object that if religious belief only makes believers more ethical in the way they relate to God, then it has no practical moral value. Surely, if God exists, then the belief that God is real should also infuse a deeper meaning into our interactions with other people. For the belief that God is real is meant to transform the way in which we think about and act towards others. In that case, there should be ethical actions directed at other human beings that a believer can perform, and that a nonbeliever cannot.

Christopher Hitchens has been criticized before for failing to provide a secular justification for his moral beliefs, and for waffling on the subject of free will. I will not rehash those criticisms here. Instead I will throw the floor open, and invite submissions from readers in answer to the following question:

Can you name an ethical action directed at other human beings, that a believer could perform, and that a nonbeliever could not?

To help readers along, I’ll make my question more focused. Let’s call it “Christopher’s Challenge”:

Can you name an ethical action directed at Christopher Hitchens, that a believer could perform, and that a nonbeliever could not?

I’m deeply ashamed to say that it took me two whole weeks to think of the answer to this question, and then I kicked myself hard for not having thought of it sooner. But I confidently predict that someone reading this post will come up with the answer within 24 hours.

Answers, anyone?

Update on Professor Feser’s response to my post

(By the way, I would like to thank Professor Edward Feser for his lengthy and detailed reply to my post, and I would like to add that I deeply respect his passion for truth. Professor Feser and I have a somewhat different understanding of Thomist metaphysics and how it should be interpreted in the 21st century, and I would also disagree with his bold claim that even if scientists one day managed to synthesize a life-form from scratch in a lab, that life-form would not be an artifact. But in the meantime, I would like to draw readers’ attention to a remark Professor Feser made in his post, “Intelligent Design” theory and mechanism, on 10 April 2010:

Perhaps the biological world God creates works according to Darwinian principles; and perhaps not.

Those were incautious words, and I believe they betray a profound misunderstanding of what Aquinas wrote on the Creation. In a forthcoming post, I will demonstrate that Aquinas would never have accepted the Darwinian account of how evolution is supposed to work, even if he had known then what we know now. I will also show that according to Aquinas, certain life-forms cannot be generated from non-living matter by any kind of natural process, even in a universe sustained by God, and rife with final causes. Stay tuned!)

Comments
Clive Hayden:
What I’m saying is that works are not a litmus test of salvation.
The presence of works, agreed, is not indicative (Mat 7:21-23 speaks to that). But the absence of works is indicative (Jam 2:17-18 speaks to that).
Repent and be saved, not be saved and then repent.
I would qibble and say 'repent and be saved and then repent some more' as the fuller extent of sin is progressively revealed.
After that, yes, we still sin as Christians, whether we do it happily or not when we sin, whether we have any remorse later, is not any test of our salvation. It can be a test of our fruitfulness, sure, but nothing more
Remorse, I would argue is not a test of fruitfulness (fruit is the evidence of fruitfulness) but remorse, or lack thereof, is indicative of being sensitive to God's law and to the conscience God has imbued in us. The presence of remorse, is indicative of faith (Rom 7 speaks to that). But the absence of remorse is also indicative of a lack of belief (Mat 21:32 speaks to that). Given that remorse is an act of conscience, one might also refer to Rom 2:14-16 where the conscience is an indication of the Law written on hearts, and to 1Ti 1:19 and 1Ti 4:2 regarding the consequences of rejecting and searing one's conscience, and implicitly a lack of remorse (i.e. "happily" sinning away) might be due to a seared conscience. That last point being, the absence of remorse, in an individual "happily" sinning away, is most definitely an indication of something wrong. But it is difficult to juxatapose, in the same individual, salvation and the seal of the holy spirit, and Jesus commencing a good work, with "happily" sinning away without remorse. Where is the repentance without remorse? Do you not see a contradiction? Lest there be some confusion, if someone has become trapped in some sin (say, pornography for example) even though they may sin chronically there ought to be some remorse. They ought to be admitting to themselves "This is a problem. I ought not to be looking at this stuff. I'm a Christian for crying out loud. Jesus hung on the cross for me because of what I'm doing. I ought to be overcoming it, not yielding to it." Make no mistake, if there is no such remorse or regret for the ongoing commission of sin, if instead the sinner feels free to "happily" sin away, that is a big question mark. But if they were serious about overcoming, about the pain it causes Jesus, they'd go get Christian counseling and make some changes to deal with it. They'd express "repentance", a change of attitude about what they are doing. Only Jesus knows someone's heart, but we can get indications from remorse or its absence, just like fruit.Charles
April 28, 2010
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Charles, What I'm saying is that works are not a litmus test of salvation. Repent and be saved, not be saved and then repent. If you study that word repent, it means to turn away from one's sin in order to know that you need salvation in the first place. Otherwise, if there is no disregarding or turning away from sin, there will be no turning to salvation. You have to realize you're sick before you realize you need a doctor. To me, repentance is a matter of realizing what sin is, and then realizing that one needs salvation from their sins. After that, yes, we still sin as Christians, whether we do it happily or not when we sin, whether we have any remorse later, is not any test of our salvation. It can be a test of our fruitfulness, sure, but nothing more.Clive Hayden
April 28, 2010
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So in effect, the concept of something being inhuman is nullified.above
April 28, 2010
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StephenB:
He acted on the grace of God by changing his attitude, displayed no bitterness toward his enemies, rebuked the other thief for his uncharitable attitude toward Christ, pointed out the Christ’s punishment was unjust, acknowledged his own guilt, repented of his sins, declared that he deserved his sentence, and asked to be included in the kingdom of God.
Those are all intellectual agreements, including his verbal admittance of guilt and desire to be remembered by Jesus. We can assume he changed his attitude (a mental predisposition) which means he "repented", but that is likewise an intellectual agreement. Otherwise, none of those are remotely comparable acts of kindness as demonstrated in the parables you cited. The criminal gave no one water, nor food, nor clothing, nor visted anyone in prison, nor did any miracles, prophecying or driving out demons in Jesus' name. Nor did the criminal demonstrate following any of God's law, save arguably having no other God. He wasn't even baptized, a physical act which Jesus did command.
By acting on God’s grace [not just by believing] he was saved.
Yes, God extended grace toward the criminal on the cross, but you have now moved the goalposts from tangible acts of kindness toward the less fortunate and following God's laws, to intangible intellectual and verbal agreement (which are hardly comparable). Yes, we are to understand and accept God grace, but understanding and agreeing are intellectual. That is not the kind of physical "act" of kindness towards the less fortunate at issue in Mat 7. The acts of Mat 25 are irrelevant in comparison to the criminal on the cross because he didn't do any of those acts either, but regardless, Jesus did not recognize those acts as salvific; those acts were neither evidence of faith nor part of salvation as Jesus specifically said he never knew those actors. You cited Mat 7, 25 and James 2 and you argued for the necessity of comparable acts or works, none of which were done by the criminal on the cross. The only thing which saved him in his last hour of life (imobilized as he was) was his intellectual belief in Jesus (or his "looking to Jesus who was lifted up", but looking isn't a comparable physical "act" either), accompanied by his verbal request to be remembered by Jesus and verbal admission of his own guilt and Jesus' innocence. None of those are remotely comparable to the physical acts you cited in Mat 7, 25 and James 2.
I just don’t think it is a good strategy to raise the “once-saved-always-saved” argument or declare that Christians who perform an act of faith are forever afterwards exempt from the consequences of following that morality, especially after declaring that objective morality is binding to all men in all places and in all circumstances.
However, incorrectly exegeting or explicating scripture is always a bad strategy. Jesus will finish a good work he has begun (Php 1:6), and if a sincere belief in Jesus was made and professed, then ostensibly Jesus began the good work in that believer and will finish it, and nothing can snatch them from His hand (Joh 10:28-29). So again, the only way that does not happen is if it was not begun, ostensibly because the faith, the belief, was never sincere in the first place. But we are unable to know the true condition of someone's 'heart' let alone recognize God's process of sanctification. We are all different and in need of different transformations with different priorities as God deems fit. All we can do is judge whatever external fruit there may be and compare statements and actions against scripture. But people who sincerely express faith (as did the criminal on the cross), people who sincerely believe and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, in them Jesus will have begun a good work and He will finish it, nothing can snatch them from His hand, and they are in fact forever after exempt from the eternal consequences of immorality, provided they were sincere and honest to begin with. Further, above I also said in #242 to Seversky "There maybe real-world consequences for some act (such as getting prosecuted under a law or going banckrupt) but God is not forcing or coercing any actions."
There are other times and places to raise issues about which conditions are necessary for salvation.
But there is no time at which to add conditions which scripture doesn't:
Joh 3:14-18 NASB "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
That will suffice for me. StephenB, you may have the last word.Charles
April 28, 2010
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@mark “Not at all… etc” You say not at all and then demonstrate the exact thing I was telling you. It is precisely due to the fact that one cannot live with moral subjectivity that we need objective law, hence the legal system. I don’t know how to explain this any simpler. “would be (subjectively) appalled and try to change that group’s views” But that is precisely the problem. The moment you concede moral relativism is the moment you undermine ethical standards in their entirety. Stalin and his supporters may just as well say, you got your morals we got ours and there is nothing you can say or do about it. And the sad thing is, they are absolutely justified to hold that view given moral relativism. Olson’s response covers the notion of good in terms of it being apparent, effective and its intrinsic worth. To persist asking why, why, why is akin to trying to impose some infinite regression. One last thing, I still haven’t seen a response to one of the fatal flaws of atheism/materialism that I mentioned earlier. Here it is one more time: I use the term inhuman because I believe in man’s central role in the creation. Why do you hold that view? According to the atheist/materialist doctrine, mankind is the random by-product of “nature”. In other words, Atheism/materialism in effect, dehumanizes mankind.above
April 28, 2010
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Clive Hayden:
Christians don’t sin after they’ve been saved? Sure they do. Whether they do it happily or not, doesn’t seem to me to be the point.
I fail to see how you could infer such from my words you did quote. Somewhere you have misread my post(s). I have said a few times on this very thread that Christians do sin. My point to Seversky was that "happily" sinning suggests a lack of repentance which makes their condition suspect. And above I cited Paul's "I do what I don't want to do" as an example of sinning, not "happily", but with remorse.
Works are not necessary for salvation whatsoever.
Agreed. StephenB kindly take note.Charles
April 28, 2010
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Charles, That is a fair quibble. Thank you for your response. StephenB, I'm finding little to disagree with @272. It is certainly true that acts such as prayer and refraining from sin are necessary to maintain a lasting relationship. I suppose my concern was that the concept of a "work," in the sense of a benevolent act, can be misconstrued to establish some sort of quota necessitating salvation (donating to charity, mission work, whatever). Such benevolent works seem to me to be the byproduct of a relationship through faith motivated by God's charity. That is, they are not quantifiable actions one must perform to earn salvation. Earlier you mentioned the "once-saved-always saved" position, and it is not something I'd ever advocate, and personally one I abhor as it utterly contradicts scripture. StephenB: "Thus, faithfulness is something that must be renewed daily and maintained until the end of life. There are no spiritual planes: We are all either becoming better or worse; no one stays the same." Amen to that. You're far more eloquent than I in all things; thanks for your response and I apologize for the interruption.HouseStreetRoom
April 28, 2010
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Charles,
As I alluded above, Christians who go on their merry way doing anything they like (”happily sinning” to borrow Seversky’s words), likely made a false profession of faith and aren’t saved (they weren’t sincere, they would be the “goats” or “evil doers” in the parables you’ve cited), whereas Christians who make sincere professioins of faith, actually are saved, and their works demonstrate the evidence of their faith. No works, no pre-requisite faith, no salvation (see James).
Christians don't sin after they've been saved? Sure they do. Whether they do it happily or not, doesn't seem to me to be the point. Some sins, that us Christians do, we do happily sometimes, maybe only for the moment, and later regret, and sometimes we do not do them happily and sometimes we do not, later, have any regret. None of these degrees of happiness or sin have any bearing on whether we actually accept the Atonement, and whether we are actually saved. Works are not necessary for salvation whatsoever. A Christian should have good fruits, absolutely, but they will also sin and have bad works, and all will be tried by fire at the Judgment Seat of Christ, and some will burn up, and some will withstand the fire, BUT, the person will be saved through faith.Clive Hayden
April 28, 2010
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#273 and #274 Olsenb Indeed Why do what is good? I think I have already answered that question in my last several posts. The quote you used I think sums it up nicely. I am not sure what else you were looking for. Perhaps you could expand your question a bit. It is a deceptively simple question which no objective account of morality can answer. To answer on the lines of “because it leads to, or is related to, something else which is good” is to move the question to another object. (Kant tried to answer it by saying it is irrational to want to do something which you don’t want everyone to do - but he never really explained why that was irrational). Why do we want to do what is good? Is it because of reward of some kind (which then no longer makes it good) or just because it is human nature to like doing good things (which is my answer). For me, people like doing good to other people because they evolved that desire – just as they evolved a desire to eat sweet things. One more question: If it is in our nature to do good then why have laws? Because human nature comprises many different desires which may conflict with each other in the same person and may be stronger in some people than others. I want to save the lives of starving children all over the world (a moral desire) but I also want to eat, live in a warm house, drive a car and use a computer (amoral desires). I could do more of the former by doing less of the latter i.e. give more money away. I settle for a compromise. There are other people whose desire for wealth quite overpowers their feelings of compassion. There may even be total psychopaths that have no feelings for others at all – but I think they are very rare and rightly labelled “inhuman”.Mark Frank
April 28, 2010
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#271 above “ The only need for consensus is to create phenomenally, an objective standard.” Not at all. There are masses of examples of the need for consensus when the issue is subjective. Each member of the family may have different subjective views about which TV programme to watch but it is necessary to have a consensus about which one to play (assuming one TV). “I personally am appalled by such “standards”. I have no problem openly condemning them.” Likewise I am personally appalled by communism under Stalin and have no problem condemning him – even though this is based on my subjective opinion I know that it is shared by so many people I am confident in my condemnation. “But you still have not answered my objection as to how the relativist would go about addressing the issue of another group consensus that may be considered cruel, inhuman, evil and so on.” See above. I would be (subjectively) appalled and try to change that group’s views. “I think your question as to why, was already answered by olson as I noted earlier. Here: “I do this because it is apparently good, effectively good, and because of the relationship I have with God it is intrinsically good as well.”” The question I am asking is “why do good”. To answer “because it is good” is clearly circularly. Why not do bad?Mark Frank
April 28, 2010
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---above: "What happens when the consensus of a country/group establishes standards that are inhuman? The moral relativist is in no position to address that. That is the other unsolved and insurmountable problem of atheism. ---Mark Frank: "What happens when a religious belief establishes a standard that is inhuman e.g. stoning people to death for adultery?" To answer a question with a question constitutes an evasion. The question can also take on another form: What happens when Moral relativist A conceives a morality different from Moral Relativist B, or Moral Relativist C, and so on. By what standard do you adjudicate the differences? How do you maintain a well-ordered society with everyone arrogating to himself his own standard of justice?StephenB
April 28, 2010
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One more question: If it is in our nature to do good then why have laws? ~BJolsonbj
April 28, 2010
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Mark Frank @260 Mark says: But why do what is good? Indeed Why do what is good? I think I have already answered that question in my last several posts. The quote you used I think sums it up nicely. I am not sure what else you were looking for. Perhaps you could expand your question a bit. How do you answer "why do good?" In other words how does one determine situational good as a groundwork for their moral code and then be motivated to do it? Is it a feeling you have? Is it a rationalization?olsonbj
April 28, 2010
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---House Street Room: "I would say that acts of kindness, or any works for that matter, are the fruit of a current, abiding relationship in Christ. This is to say that the relationship is what is requisite here, and if one truly (that is, in a sinless state) continues in that relationship, then charity, acts of kindness, holiness, and other Godly characteristics will stem naturally from that relationship." One must maintain that relationship, meaning that he cannot be saved on the strength of having once enjoyed it or having accepting it at a moment in time. To maintain that relationship, one must perform various types of acts--prayer, good works, refraining from serious sin, etc. ---"If some sort of physical act were necessary here, and not just a current relationship through faith, then what becomes of the new convert who, though sinless, never gets a chance (in a temporal manner) to live a life of kindness and/or works. In summary the only “act” necessary – for salvation – after becoming a Christian, is to continue in a life free from sin which means keeping Christ’s law." One is not held responsible for what one cannot do. So, if one has no opportunity to perform good works, then salvation would not be withheld. I agree with your last statement in principle, except I don't think the thousands [millions?] of acts that would define such a relationship can be characterized as one act. Can one maintain a relationship with one's spouse, brother, sister, or friend with one act? People can change, resolutions can fade, convictions can wane, and Christians can decide to stop following the grace of God and lose the relationship by default [With the rich young man, it happened quickly; with Judas, it happened slowly]. Thus, faithfulness is something that must be renewed daily and maintained until the end of life. There are no spiritual planes: We are all either becoming better or worse; no one stays the same.StephenB
April 28, 2010
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@Mark “Sorry it is not all evident to me that I am seeking an objective standard.” Simply put, you’re emulating objective standards by seeking consensus. The only need for consensus is to create phenomenally, an objective standard. The consensus, which manifests in the legal system is a perfect example of that. “What happens when a religious belief establishes a standard that is inhuman e.g. stoning people to death for adultery?” I personally am appalled by such “standards”. I have no problem openly condemning them. “Interesting that you should use the word “inhuman”. I use the term inhuman because I believe in man’s central role in the creation. Why do you hold that view? According to the atheist/materialist doctrine, mankind is the random by-product of “nature”. But you still have not answered my objection as to how the relativist would go about addressing the issue of another group consensus that may be considered cruel, inhuman, evil and so on. I think your question as to why, was already answered by olson as I noted earlier. Here: “I do this because it is apparently good, effectively good, and because of the relationship I have with God it is intrinsically good as well.”above
April 28, 2010
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---Charles: "That is not a rhetorical question. I want to see your answer as to how salvation of the criminal on the cross was by his acts of kindness or following God’s laws (including the laws he broke which put him on the cross)." He acted on the grace of God by changing his attitude, displayed no bitterness toward his enemies, rebuked the other thief for his uncharitable attitude toward Christ, pointed out the Christ's punishment was unjust, acknowledged his own guilt, repented of his sins, declared that he deserved his sentence, and asked to be included in the kingdom of God. By acting on God's grace [not just by believing] he was saved. Without God's grace, he could not have performed those superhuman acts of kindness, and they were superhuman in the midst of such incredible suffering. No one can do that on their own strength. My only purpose for raising the issue in the first place was to defend the general theme that objective morality is real. I just don't think it is a good strategy to raise the "once-saved-always-saved" argument or declare that Christians who perform an act of faith are forever afterwards exempt from the consequences of following that morality, especially after declaring that objective morality is binding to all men in all places and in all circumstances. There are other times and places to raise issues about which conditions are necessary for salvation.StephenB
April 28, 2010
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HouseStreetRoom: I would agree with the essence of what you are saying. I would only quibble, semantically, with your choice of word "sinless", when I think what you meant was "blameless":
This is to say that the relationship is what is requisite here, and if one truly (that is, in a sinless blameless state) continues in that relationship, then charity, acts of kindness, holiness, and other Godly characteristics will stem naturally from that relationship. If some sort of physical act were necessary here, and not just a current relationship through faith, then what becomes of the new convert who, though sinless blameless, never gets a chance (in a temporal manner) to live a life of kindness and/or works.
We remain sinful people. Even Paul was not sinless, he kept "doing that which he did not want to do", but Paul and all sincere Christians are "blameless" even though they still sin on occasion. The "blame" for our sin was transferred to Jesus; we accept that Jesus took the punishment (the "blame") that was due us for the sin we previously committed and even will in the future. But agreed that as a consequence of that relationship with Jesus, we desire and strive to be sinless; we sin less and less and do kindness and good works more and more, and with God's help we progress towards that goal, imperfectly with occasional sin, but progressively without blame. All: I've some other priorities now, I'll check back tonight.Charles
April 28, 2010
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StephenB, I agree that "requisite acts of kindness are not possible without God’s help." But when you state here: "Christians who think that they can make a profession of faith and then go on their merry way doing anything they like." I don't think this is what Charles is saying. I would say that acts of kindness, or any works for that matter, are the fruit of a current, abiding relationship in Christ. This is to say that the relationship is what is requisite here, and if one truly (that is, in a sinless state) continues in that relationship, then charity, acts of kindness, holiness, and other Godly characteristics will stem naturally from that relationship. If some sort of physical act were necessary here, and not just a current relationship through faith, then what becomes of the new convert who, though sinless, never gets a chance (in a temporal manner) to live a life of kindness and/or works. In summary the only "act" necessary - for salvation - after becoming a Christian, is to continue in a life free from sin which means keeping Christ's law.HouseStreetRoom
April 28, 2010
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StephenB:
Matthew 7, Matthew 25, James 2 were written for Christians who think that they can make a profession of faith and then go on their merry way doing anything they like.
As I alluded above, Christians who go on their merry way doing anything they like ("happily sinning" to borrow Seversky's words), likely made a false profession of faith and aren't saved (they weren't sincere, they would be the "goats" or "evil doers" in the parables you've cited), whereas Christians who make sincere professioins of faith, actually are saved, and their works demonstrate the evidence of their faith. No works, no pre-requisite faith, no salvation (see James).
The refusal to follow God’s laws is distinct from the refusal to believe. Both are necessary for salvation. Salvation is by believing AND by acts of kindness in his name, as is evident from the passages I have already cited. There is only one place in Scripture where the words “Saved by faith alone” are used, and on the one occassion that phrase is preceded by the word “NOT.”
Ok, What acts of Kindness and which of God's laws, did the the criminal on the cross (Luk 23:39-43) do to get saved? What "alone" did the criminal exhibit? That is not a rhetorical question. I want to see your answer as to how salvation of the criminal on the cross was by his acts of kindness or following God's laws (including the laws he broke which put him on the cross).Charles
April 28, 2010
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#261 above 1. It is evident that while you do acknowledge that your standards are subjective, you nevertheless seek out a phenomenally objective standard that is facilitated by what you call common agreement. That in it and of itself shows the necessity for objective standards. Simply put, the need for law (objective standard) is inescapable. Sorry it is not all evident to me that I am seeking an objective standard. 2. What happens when the consensus of a country/group establishes standards that are inhuman? The moral relativist is in no position to address that. That is the other unsolved and insurmountable problem of atheism. What happens when a religious belief establishes a standard that is inhuman e.g. stoning people to death for adultery? Interesting that you should use the word "inhuman". That is my position. Our ethical views have their origin in common, strongly held, but in the end subjective views of how we and others should behave. It is part of our nature as human beings. That is why I do good things (when not tempted to do otherwise by rival motives). Why do you do good things?Mark Frank
April 28, 2010
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---Charles: "The only refusal that affects your salavation is to refuse its free offer, to refuse to believe." The refusal to follow God's laws is distinct from the refusal to believe. Both are necessary for salvation. ---"Salvation is by believing in the Lord Jesus, not by acts of kindness or even acts in His name." Salvation is by believing AND by acts of kindness in his name, as is evident from the passages I have already cited. The requisite acts of kindness are not possible without God's help, granted, but that does not mean that they are not necessary. Matthew 7, Matthew 25, James 2 were written for Christians who think that they can make a profession of faith and then go on their merry way doing anything they like. There is only one place in Scripture where the words "Saved by faith alone" are used, and on the one occassion that phrase is preceded by the word "NOT."StephenB
April 28, 2010
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---Mark Frank: "I am atheist and I don’t feel the need for an objective standard for ethics – subjective standards with a lot of common agreement are very powerful and significant." It was not for your needs and feelings that the objective standard was established but rather for the needs and feelings of those with whom you come into contact who will be either helped or harmed by your actions.StephenB
April 28, 2010
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StephenB:
It is not enough to just believe and join the team; one must cooperate with God’s grace and become transformed
Cooperating with God's grace and being transformed are subsequent to believing. But as you acknowledge, believing is how you "join the team", believeing is how you "join the fold" of sheep, and as they are "transformed", sheep do acts of kindness, but goats are separted from sheep.
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.... [etc.]
Nowhere in that parable is it taught that goats become sheep (i.e. that disbelievers become saved) by what they do. Rather the parable teaches that sheep will be separated from goats (i.e. the saved will be separated from he unsaved) and the sheep were rewarded for the kindness they showed others whereas the goats were punished for not showing kindness. (Some argue this passage teaches varying degrees of torment in hell. I myself am unsure the parable can be stretched that far.) But the parable is silent on how or why 'sheep are sheep' and 'goats are goats', the parable only teaches how they behave differently and how that behavior is personally experienced by the Lord. But the parable does not teach that a goat becomes a sheep by doing kind acts.
—“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Precisely the point. What the "evildoers" did (prophecy, drive out demons, etc. in the Lord's name no less) none of those acts even in His name was sufficient to merit being known by the Lord. Nothing they did, even though superficially they were doing acts in the Lord's name, would earn them salvation. They were still known by Him as "doing evil" and whatever they were doing, even in His name, it didn't save them.
According to Scripture, what we do or refuse to do DOES affect our salvation.
The only refusal that affects your salavation is to refuse its free offer, to refuse to believe. Salvation is by believing in the Lord Jesus, not by acts of kindness or even acts in His name.
Luk 7:50 NASB And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace." Luk 8:12 NASB "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved. Joh 10:9 NASB "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. Rom 10:9-11 NASB that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
Charles
April 28, 2010
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@ Mark #257 Olsonbj's response pretty much covers it. You say subjective standards with a lot of agreement is good enough for you. Fair enough. Here's my two objections: 1. It is evident that while you do acknowledge that your standards are subjective, you nevertheless seek out a phenomenally objective standard that is facilitated by what you call common agreement. That in it and of itself shows the necessity for objective standards. Simply put, the need for law (objective standard) is inescapable. 2. What happens when the consensus of a country/group establishes standards that are inhuman? The moral relativist is in no position to address that. That is the other unsolved and insurmountable problem of atheism.above
April 28, 2010
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Olsonb @258 I have already said that loving God and loving others is the standard. I do this because it is apparently good, effectively good, and because of the relationship I have with God it is intrinsically good as well. But why do what is good? Tell me this: Are your ethics situational or relativistic? Neither - but something akin to situational.Mark Frank
April 28, 2010
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According to Scripture, what we do or refuse to do DOES affect our salvation. It is not enough to just believe and join the team; one must cooperate with God's grace and become transformed: Matthew, Chapter 25: ---"And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in: Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me. Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting." Matthew, Chapter 7: ---“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’StephenB
April 28, 2010
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olsonbj, So to you, the widow who gave all she had is ethically equivalent to a billionaire who gives a penny?pelagius
April 28, 2010
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Pelagius @253 Actually the Gospels do not back up Seversky's position. Christ said that she had given more than the others not that she was more ethical. Her sacrifice was greater to be sure, but the act itself did not make her a better person ethically, nor do the scriptures teach that. Mark Frank @257 I have already said that loving God and loving others is the standard. I do this because it is apparently good, effectively good, and because of the relationship I have with God it is intrinsically good as well. Tell me this: Are your ethics situational or relativistic?olsonbj
April 28, 2010
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#256 What exatly is your objective standard for ethics as an atheist if I may ask? As I have a spare moment may I jump in here. I am atheist and I don't feel the need for an objective standard for ethics - subjective standards with a lot of common agreement are very powerful and significant. But let me ask you as a theist. What exactly is your objective standard for ethics and why do you try to conform to it?Mark Frank
April 27, 2010
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Seversky said: "Christians have no patent on morality so atheists are free to draw on whatever sources are available. Besides, at least atheists try to work out a viable morality for themselves. The justification for their morality doesn’t reduce to ‘because God said so’." I'm sorry seversky but that is a caricature. I don't think anyone here is saying that an atheist cannot act morally. What the argument from morality implies is that the atheist has no standard upon which he can place his morals apart from the relativistic. What exatly is your objective standard for ethics as an atheist if I may ask?above
April 27, 2010
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