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Christopher’s Challenge

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Christopher Hitchens is nothing if not a straight-shooter. He calls it like he sees it, and not even a vicious attack could stop him from denouncing evil, racist ideologies that are still with us today. He is also a fearless and formidable debater. In recent years, he has declared himself an anti-theist, a term he defines as follows:

You could be an atheist and wish that the belief was true. You could; I know some people who do. An antitheist, a term I’m trying to get into circulation, is someone who’s very relieved that there’s no evidence for this proposition.

On Bastille Day in 2007, in response to an article entitled What Atheists Can’t Answer by op-ed columnist Michael Gerson in The Washington Post, Christopher Hitchens threw down the gauntlet to theists:

Here is my challenge. Let Gerson name one ethical statement made, or one ethical action performed, by a believer that could not have been uttered or done by a nonbeliever. And here is my second challenge. Can any reader of this column think of a wicked statement made, or an evil action performed, precisely because of religious faith? The second question is easy to answer, is it not? The first – I have been asking it for some time – awaits a convincing reply. By what right, then, do the faithful assume this irritating mantle of righteousness? They have as much to apologize for as to explain.

Hitchens has repeated this challenge on numerous occasions since then. The first time I heard him issue this challenge, I thought: “He has a point.” Going through the Ten Commandments (a natural starting point for someone raised in the Judeo-Christian tradition), it seemed to me that the only ones that a nonbeliever couldn’t keep were the ones relating to the worship of God. But Christopher Hitchens might reasonably object that if religious belief only makes believers more ethical in the way they relate to God, then it has no practical moral value. Surely, if God exists, then the belief that God is real should also infuse a deeper meaning into our interactions with other people. For the belief that God is real is meant to transform the way in which we think about and act towards others. In that case, there should be ethical actions directed at other human beings that a believer can perform, and that a nonbeliever cannot.

Christopher Hitchens has been criticized before for failing to provide a secular justification for his moral beliefs, and for waffling on the subject of free will. I will not rehash those criticisms here. Instead I will throw the floor open, and invite submissions from readers in answer to the following question:

Can you name an ethical action directed at other human beings, that a believer could perform, and that a nonbeliever could not?

To help readers along, I’ll make my question more focused. Let’s call it “Christopher’s Challenge”:

Can you name an ethical action directed at Christopher Hitchens, that a believer could perform, and that a nonbeliever could not?

I’m deeply ashamed to say that it took me two whole weeks to think of the answer to this question, and then I kicked myself hard for not having thought of it sooner. But I confidently predict that someone reading this post will come up with the answer within 24 hours.

Answers, anyone?

Update on Professor Feser’s response to my post

(By the way, I would like to thank Professor Edward Feser for his lengthy and detailed reply to my post, and I would like to add that I deeply respect his passion for truth. Professor Feser and I have a somewhat different understanding of Thomist metaphysics and how it should be interpreted in the 21st century, and I would also disagree with his bold claim that even if scientists one day managed to synthesize a life-form from scratch in a lab, that life-form would not be an artifact. But in the meantime, I would like to draw readers’ attention to a remark Professor Feser made in his post, “Intelligent Design” theory and mechanism, on 10 April 2010:

Perhaps the biological world God creates works according to Darwinian principles; and perhaps not.

Those were incautious words, and I believe they betray a profound misunderstanding of what Aquinas wrote on the Creation. In a forthcoming post, I will demonstrate that Aquinas would never have accepted the Darwinian account of how evolution is supposed to work, even if he had known then what we know now. I will also show that according to Aquinas, certain life-forms cannot be generated from non-living matter by any kind of natural process, even in a universe sustained by God, and rife with final causes. Stay tuned!)

Comments
Seversky @ 252 I understand now that sacrifice and ethical are somehow connected in your belief system. That is the greater the sacrifice the more ethical. The less the sacrifice less ethical. So if the Millionaire gave nothing would that make him unethical? What makes sacrifice ethical in your opinion? If a person make 50K a year and gives $100 to a charity is that person more ethical than a person who makes 55K a year and does the same? Is Ethics measured by your performance relative to others with different social statuses? I am not trying to be argumentative here really, but the more I think about what you say about ethics the less sense it makes to me. Help!? ~BJolsonbj
April 27, 2010
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Seversky:
[There is no “act” which Christians or anyone can “do” which will gain them eternal life.] According to your interpretation of Christianity, perhaps. But there are other Christians, no doubt equally devout, who take a different view.
No, according to scripture: Rom 6:23 NASB For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Eph 2:8-9 NASB For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. There is no “act” which Christians or anyone can “do” which will gain them eternal life. It is a "free gift", not as a result of works, so that no one may boast (in how hard they "worked" for their savation and why they are "owed" it).
But there are other Christians, no doubt equally devout, who take a different view.
Being devout doesn't change what the bible actually says.
So, as long as we believe, we can all sin away quite happily, secure in the knowledge that the price has already been paid?
If you're happily sinning away, then you lack repentance and your profession of faith was likely false, and you aren't really a believer. But yes, the price has been paid. The only question is whether one who "happily sins away" is in the book of life. What saith scripture?
Rom 7:14-15, 19 NASB For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. ... 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
Paul (who is the model of a true believer) sins and hates doing it, he does not want to practice evil. True believers still sin, yes, but not "happily". They want to change, to stop sinning. They regret the sin they have done and still do.
So the promise of eternal life in heaven and the threat of eternal hellfire and damnation are just a bit of public relations hyperbole?
There is no "threat of eternal hellfire and damnation " for believers. Jesus paid the price, and since Jesus paid the price, there is no threat of anything, no coercion for believers. And if the reward of eternal life doesn't appeal to non-believers, and since they don't believe in the alternative threat, then there is no coercion for them either, is there. And since many people turn down the free gift of salvation, clearly they weren't coerced either, were they.
So again we have this perfect, necessary, Uncaused First Cause of a God who wants something – something He can’t find within himself?
In a sense, yes. God is love. God wants to express love and true love is not expressed towards inanimate objects. Love is expressed towards beings that can receive and comprehend love. God created mankind as an object, a target if you will, to receive His love.
That looks to me like a bit of a contradiction.
To receive and comprehend love requires free will. Robots, puppets or Steppford wives can't know love, let alone return it freely. God is not like a fanciful child that pretends to love her inanimate dolls and they in return. So we were created to be loved and with free will to know love, and return love, both to each other and to God. But having free will means being able to reject the one who loves you. God loves you, but you are free to reject His love. There is no contradiction.Charles
April 27, 2010
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Seversky asks:
Two people each contribute $100.00 to a charity for the homeless. One is a millionaire. For the other, that is all the money he or she has. We can assume that both are equally sincere in their desire to help the homeless. Would you say that both acts are morally equivalent?
The Gospels back up Seversky, in the famous story of the widow and her two mites:
And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury. And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites. And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all: For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had. Luke 21:1-4, KJV
pelagius
April 27, 2010
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olsonbj @ 246
Under what conditions do you have levels of morality? The only systems which this makes sense would Philosophical relativism or situational ethics. Are a follower of either of these or some other moral code that allows for degrees of ethical behavior?
Two people each contribute $100.00 to a charity for the homeless. One is a millionaire. For the other, that is all the money he or she has. We can assume that both are equally sincere in their desire to help the homeless. Would you say that both acts are morally equivalent?Seversky
April 27, 2010
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Charles @ 242
There is no “act” which Christians or anyone can “do” which will gain them eternal life. Salvation is not by works, but by belief (a sincere intellectual acceptance that Jesus is Lord and paid for their sins, accompanied by actual repentance) in Jesus Christ, not some action. Performing (or not) any act has no salvific efficacy.
According to your interpretation of Christianity, perhaps. But there are other Christians, no doubt equally devout, who take a different view. As an agnostic and atheist, I find both views incoherent. I also find it ironic that, over the centuries, many highly-intelligent scholars have spent untold hours writing uncounted millions of words rationalizing, explaining and justifying their beliefs when all that really counts, apparently, is blind faith and obedience.
For a sincere believer, all punishment for ommissions and commissions past and present has been born by Jesus. Believers will not be punished with damnation for not doing some act.
So, as long as we believe, we can all sin away quite happily, secure in the knowledge that the price has already been paid?
No one is under coercion, not atheists nor Christians.
So the promise of eternal life in heaven and the threat of eternal hellfire and damnation are just a bit of public relations hyperbole?
God wants followers who willingly obey out of love and recognition of God’s way being the best way.
So again we have this perfect, necessary, Uncaused First Cause of a God who wants something - something He can't find within himself? That looks to me like a bit of a contradiction.Seversky
April 27, 2010
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Spiny Norman @ 240
Don’t borrow from the Christian worldview, which justifies the statement by pointing out that “God is love; therefore love is the underpinning of morality”.
"God is love" may be poetic but it is incoherent. And for Christians, God is a lot more than a property or an emotion. Also, it is reasonable to assume that love has existed in all human cultures, including those that had never heard of Jesus Christ or the Christian God. If anything, therefore, it is the Christianity that has expropriated love for itself by claiming its God to be the only source.
Justify it using the language of science. Energy, matter, electrons, protons, use anything you like. Show the links which lead you to “Love is the underpinning of morality”.
Do you want a rational justification of the claim that love is the foundation of all morality or a materialistic explanation of how love is a property of the physical human brain whose causal ancestry can be traced right back to primordial hydrogen? They are two different things.
If you cannot, then you are like most atheists I know; they borrow freely whatever bits they like from Christian morality and provide no justification for doing so.
Christians have no patent on morality so atheists are free to draw on whatever sources are available. Besides, at least atheists try to work out a viable morality for themselves. The justification for their morality doesn't reduce to 'because God said so'.Seversky
April 27, 2010
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above you ask; second point is, from what both speakers say is that evidently, the development, evolution of morality would be inevitable in any living culture in some form or another. That would be a defeating point against the non-teleological, random approach of naturalism." Above, like I said I did not watch the video, but I can assure you that if they gave any leeway to neo_Darwinism whatsoever, I would find substantial fault with it in that I find no evidence for it to be true in the least bit.bornagain77
April 26, 2010
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Above are you talking about this one?: http://www.vimeo.com/10809241 Well above, I haven't watch that particular video on veritas, but one lesson evolutionists have taught me well is that there is a heck of a lot of deception out there in the world, even to a certain extent on veritas, and that it is very, very, wise to thoroughly, and prayerfully check, anything anyone tries to sell you as the unambiguous truth. Especially if this proposed unambiguous truth is ultimately based on the materialistic/atheistic philosophy. I can't count the number of times, after thoroughly checking a matter out, I've caught people of the atheistic persuasion trying to deceive me. Shoot there was one guy I kind of used as a reverse compass for a while to get closer to the truth, he was so bad at trying to deceive me away from Christ.bornagain77
April 26, 2010
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bornagain comment #22: I saw the video on Altruism & Selfless Love: Theistic and Naturalistic Perspectives. Very intersting. Two points I would like to comment on. I think the Christian speaker conceeds too much and even his methodology appears to be naturalistic. The second point is, from what both speakers say is that evidently, the development, evolution of morality would be inevitable in any living culture in some form or another. That would be a defeating point against the non-teleological, random approach of naturalism. Do you agree?above
April 26, 2010
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Seversky: Under what conditions do you have levels of morality? The only systems which this makes sense would Philosophical relativism or situational ethics. Are a follower of either of these or some other moral code that allows for degrees of ethical behavior? ~BJolsonbj
April 26, 2010
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Every day an atheist puts groceries in front of a poor old christian woman's door step, and every day until the day she dies, she praises God when she finds them while the man laughs to himself while hearing these ridicules utterances. On the last day, the man hears the women praising God and say's, it wasn't your god that provided you all these years. It was I, and I am an atheist, who doesn't believe in your god!! So what do you have to say now!! She said, Praise God Almighty for providing me with all this sustenance all these years, and it was nice to see how you got the Devil to flip the bill.THEMAYAN
April 25, 2010
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Seversky here is a song that fits the theme that there is much more meaning within life than materialists can ever hope to explain and still remain logically coherent: Switchfoot - Meant To Live http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipf0wg0tCQcbornagain77
April 25, 2010
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Seversky a fitting song to the Key question of the topic,,, what's my motivation?: Stevie Wonder - Higher Ground http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wZ3ZG_Wamsbornagain77
April 25, 2010
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Seversky:
I put it to you that Christians who perform an act under the belief that if they do it they will be rewarded with eternal life...
Wrong. There is no "act" which Christians or anyone can "do" which will gain them eternal life. Salvation is not by works, but by belief (a sincere intellectual acceptance that Jesus is Lord and paid for their sins, accompanied by actual repentance) in Jesus Christ, not some action. Performing (or not) any act has no salvific efficacy.
and if they don’t they will be punished with eternal damnation...
Again wrong. For a sincere believer, all punishment for ommissions and commissions past and present has been born by Jesus. Believers will not be punished with damnation for not doing some act.
... are not behaving morally. They are acting under coercion and a coerced act cannot be truly moral.
And badly wrong. No one is under coercion, not atheists nor Christians. There maybe real-world consequences for some act (such as getting prosecuted under a law or going banckrupt) but God is not forcing or coercing any actions. All acts or not are free will choices. God wants followers who willingly obey out of love and recognition of God's way being the best way. Only then are the acts (or avoidance of sinful acts) truly moral. God is not pleased without faith in Him and His guidance, i.e., without faith in God and His laws, God does not view an act as morally good. If a non-believer feeds or clothes a stranger because they want the charitable tax deduction rather than because Jesus said "to the extent you did it for them you do it me", God does not view that as a moral act to the non-believer's credit. If a non-believing thief avoids murdering his victims because he values life, God does not view that as a moral act in obedience to His law to not murder. Whether acting or not acting, without faith/obedience in God as the underlying motivation, God does not view it as "moral". Society might, but God doesn't. God prefers that you neither murder nor steal, etc., but when judgment day comes, a defense of "So what if I never believed in Jesus, I never murdered or stole... etc.," the verdict will be "guilty by reason of not accepting Jesus", regardless of what else you didn't (or did) do. You may "invent" your own morality to suit yourself for whatever purpose, at your own risk, but you do not get to re-invent what constitutes Christian morality as defined in the Bible. If you're going to argue what is moral for Christians, you need to seriously update your understanding of what the Bible teaches.Charles
April 25, 2010
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Spiny Norman:
They want to borrow from a Christian worldview, which says that self-sacrifice is noble, and then shoehorn that into their own worldview without justifying the very notion that self-sacrifice is a worthy trait! Sorry, no morality loans allowed here. Justify your self-sacrifice only from your own worldview; don’t steal from mine.
Norman, People were sacrificing themselves for others long before the Christian worldview even existed. To claim that atheists are "stealing" this idea is ludicrous. And how do you, as a Christian, justify the idea that self-sacrifice can be noble?pelagius
April 25, 2010
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Seversky, what's required here is for an atheist/materialist to provide justification for your statement (which I agree with) that "Love ... is the underpinning of morality". Don't borrow from the Christian worldview, which justifies the statement by pointing out that "God is love; therefore love is the underpinning of morality". Justify it using the language of science. Energy, matter, electrons, protons, use anything you like. Show the links which lead you to "Love is the underpinning of morality". If you cannot, then you are like most atheists I know; they borrow freely whatever bits they like from Christian morality and provide no justification for doing so. Your statement about coercion I agree with. However, perhaps unwittingly, your comment serves to demonstrate the silliness of Hitchens' challenge. He asked for examples of STATMENTS and ACTIONS; he ignored INTENTIONS (or MOTIVATIONS) as being an essential factor in what makes something right or wrong. And that is why his challenge is wasting our time here.Spiny Norman
April 25, 2010
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Spiny Norman @ 231
Sorry, no morality loans allowed here. Justify your self-sacrifice only from your own worldview; don’t steal from mine.
Parents do not pause to consider whether their act is justified before sacrificing their life to save their child. Soldiers do not stop to consider whether an act of heroism is justified when sacrificing their lives for their comrades. They act out of love and it is love which is the underpinning of morality This applies to both believers and atheists. Believers do not have a monopoly on love.
I put it to you that an atheist cannot perform an act of self-sacrifice AND be justified in doing so at the same time, without borrowing from the theistic worldview.
I put it to you that Christians who perform an act under the belief that if they do it they will be rewarded with eternal life and if they don't they will be punished with eternal damnation are not behaving morally. They are acting under coercion and a coerced act cannot be truly moral.
231 Spiny Norman 04/25/2010 4:10 pm I’m rather amused by this idea of atheists (and, I assume, materialists) sacrificing their life for another. What, pray, would be the point? Given their worldview, which seems to require of them little more than the passing on of their genes to the next generation, isn’t it more reasonable to suggest instead that any atheist wishing to sacrifice their life for another is not noble, but rather mentally ill or deficient in some way? They want to borrow from a Christian worldview, which says that self-sacrifice is noble, and then shoehorn that into their own worldview without justifying the very notion that self-sacrifice is a worthy trait! Sorry, no morality loans allowed here. Justify your self-sacrifice only from your own worldview; don’t steal from mine. I put it to you that an atheist cannot perform an act of self-sacrifice AND be justified in doing so at the same time, without borrowing from the theistic worldview.Seversky
April 25, 2010
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Seversky there is a spiritual quality to our lives that permeates every facet of the human experience. this is a clear and plain truth that many people readily grasp, but which to me quite a while to get hold of after I had learned Christ was real. I wrote this following poem kind of in response to my gradual awakening to the spiritual aspect of our lives: There Is More - Inspirational Poem - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4102086 There Is More Once I saw a very old Godly man who, being very near death, had Become deaf, blind and invalid; Yet somehow he glowed happily Then it occurred to me... There is more to see than the light we see with our eyes There is more to behold than to watch setting skies There is more to hear than to hear a sound There is more to stand on than to stand on the ground There is more to feel than what we can touch with our skin There is more to all things, things that come from deeper within Then I saw a miserly old rich man who had angrily driven away his family Now he was in a coma, in his mansion, with no one around who loved him Then it occurred to me... There is more to the hurt of a word than to sticks and stones There is more to people than just skin and bones There is more to a home than bricks, steel, and lumber There is more to waking up than rising from slumber There is more to riches than having gold piled high There is more to living than just being alive Then I saw a Godly young woman full of compassion Working with homeless people helping them get off the street Then it occurred to me... There is more to loving than the warmth of feeling good There is more to understanding than a fact being understood There is more to work with than the tools of our crafts There is more to cleaning up than taking a bath There is more to freedom than having no prison walls There is more to poverty than having no stuff at all Then I saw a bitter old man who angrily didn't believe in Miracles at all and thinks that this cold world is all there is Then it occurred to me... There is more to being dead than a body in a tomb There is more to being born than coming out of a womb There is more to heaven than all the stars above There is more to Jesus Christ than a distant example of God's love There is more to learning than books teach us in schools And there is more to walking with God than keeping TEN rules Then I got home at the end of the day Went into my room and quietly prayed Lord, If there is more than a lesson to my heart You could teach Would You teach me to see spiritually to add depth to my reach And Lord, If there is more than a gift to this world You might give Would You give the miracle that in all hearts Your light would livebornagain77
April 25, 2010
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Seversky, you're making what I consider to be a serious error here. You're trying to assign different levels of moral value based on comparisons of persons. That's not how Christian morality works; at least, not as I understand it. Christian morality is based on what God requires of individual persons, not an arbitrary comparison based on what one person thinks about the value of another person's statements or actions. So when you try to assess the moral praiseworthiness or otherwise of Jesus' self-sacrifice, its futile to be comparing it to some hypothetical other person who might be in the same situation. All that you need to do is look at what alternatives Jesus had. He could save his life, or offer it up. He did his duty, and there is moral praiseworthiness in doing one's duty (at least if you hold to a Christian worldview). To suggest that one person person is "more moral" than another might appeal to your sense of mathematics, but I am not convinced it scores you any points with God (or with me for that matter). What counts is what decisions you make, what statements you make and what actions you take, based on your individual circumstances and what you know of what God requires of you.Spiny Norman
April 25, 2010
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Seversky states: "None of this tells us whether there is, in fact, life after death. It would be nice if there were but I see no reason to believe it." well here are a few reasons to believe then: "It was not possible to formulate the laws (of quantum theory) in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness." Eugene Wigner (1902 -1995) laid the foundation for the theory of symmetries in quantum mechanics, for which he received the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1963 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Wigner Miracle Of Mind-Brain Recovery Following Hemispherectomies - Dr. Ben Carson - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994585/ Removing Half of Brain Improves Young Epileptics' Lives: Excerpt: "We are awed by the apparent retention of memory and by the retention of the child's personality and sense of humor,'' Dr. Eileen P. G. Vining; In further comment from the neuro-surgeons in the John Hopkins study: "Despite removal of one hemisphere, the intellect of all but one of the children seems either unchanged or improved. Intellect was only affected in the one child who had remained in a coma, vigil-like state, attributable to peri-operative complications." http://www.nytimes.com/1997/08/19/science/removing-half-of-brain-improves-young-epileptics-lives.html Blind Woman Can See During Near Death Experience - Pim Lommel - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994599/ Kenneth Ring and Sharon Cooper (1997) conducted a study of 31 blind people, many of who reported vision during their NDEs. 21 of these people had had an NDE while the remaining 10 had had an out-of-body experience (OBE), but no NDE. It was found that in the NDE sample, about half had been blind from birth. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2320/is_1_64/ai_65076875/ In The Wonder Of Being Human: Our Brain and Our Mind, Eccles and Robinson discussed the research of three groups of scientists (Robert Porter and Cobie Brinkman, Nils Lassen and Per Roland, and Hans Kornhuber and Luder Deeke), all of whom produced startling and undeniable evidence that a "mental intention" preceded an actual neuronal firing - thereby establishing that the mind is not the same thing as the brain, but is a separate entity altogether. http://books.google.com/books?id=J9pON9yB8HkC&pg=PT28&lpg=PT28 “As I remarked earlier, this may present an “insuperable” difficulty for some scientists of materialists bent, but the fact remains, and is demonstrated by research, that non-material mind acts on material brain.” Eccles "Thought precedes action as lightning precedes thunder." Heinrich Heine - in the year 1834 Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. The Day I Died - Part 4 of 6 - The NDE of Pam Reynolds - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045560 Of related interest on the "spiritual" aspect of man: http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dc8z67wz_4d8hc876jbornagain77
April 25, 2010
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Phaedros @ 212
Is there an after life or isn’t there? You’re saying that Jesus knew that there was so his sacrifice was less significant somehow. So if he knew there was an afterlife then there is one, which makes the atheistic position wrong. If there isn’t an afterlife and Jesus was wrong then his sacrifice was just as “great” as an atheist’s would be. Which is it?
I am simply taking the Biblical account at its word. In that story, the Jesus who allowed himself to be crucified believed he was the Messiah, the Son of God and would be resurrected after his death and be taken up to heaven where he would dwell for all eternity. If that were true then Jesus's sacrifice was less ethical than that of an atheist who has no such expectation of life after death. None of this tells us whether there is, in fact, life after death. It would be nice if there were but I see no reason to believe it.Seversky
April 25, 2010
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Indeed ... and if you want to have even more fun showing how silly Hitchens' challenge is, lets rewrite it like this: "... name one ethical statement made, or one ethical action performed, by a believer that could not have been uttered or done by a ROBOT."Spiny Norman
April 25, 2010
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Thank you Spiny Norman that is exactly the point. They ask what it is an atheist can or cannot do that a theist could while at the same time presupposing a theistic framework.Phaedros
April 25, 2010
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I'm rather amused by this idea of atheists (and, I assume, materialists) sacrificing their life for another. What, pray, would be the point? Given their worldview, which seems to require of them little more than the passing on of their genes to the next generation, isn't it more reasonable to suggest instead that any atheist wishing to sacrifice their life for another is not noble, but rather mentally ill or deficient in some way? They want to borrow from a Christian worldview, which says that self-sacrifice is noble, and then shoehorn that into their own worldview without justifying the very notion that self-sacrifice is a worthy trait! Sorry, no morality loans allowed here. Justify your self-sacrifice only from your own worldview; don't steal from mine. I put it to you that an atheist cannot perform an act of self-sacrifice AND be justified in doing so at the same time, without borrowing from the theistic worldview.Spiny Norman
April 25, 2010
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---Toronto; “An atheist is “pursuing his final end” when he gives his life for another because for an atheist, there is no existence after this one. A Christian making the decision of self sacrifice believes that there is another existence, which basically means no “final end” at all.” You are confusing “end of life” with “final end.” They are not the same thing at all. The final end of a thing is that for which it was made. Neither Christians nor atheists were made to die, so dying, though it represents the end of their life, is not the thing for which they were made. If a human was made to pursue some final destiny beyond earthly existence or realize some purpose or ideal, then to the extent that he is aware of that purpose, it is moral to pursue that end and immoral not to pursue it. Obviously, the atheist cannot pursue that end because he insists that such things are illusions. In that context, he cannot, therefore, perform the moral act. That doesn’t mean he can’t perform other moral acts. ---“This means a Christian is incapable of giving up his existence for anyone because his existence doesn’t end when his Earthly life does.” I believe that I have already stated, more than once, that I do not include giving up one’s life for a loved one to be beyond the range of atheistic morality, though it is clearly a stretch and probably quite rare. ----“Your point was that an atheist couldn’t do certain things a Christian could yet here we have a case where a Christian, by believing in an after-life, cannot perform an act an atheist could, namely self-sacrifice,” I didn’t say that an atheist can perform “no” moral acts that a Christian can perform, I said that there are “some” moral acts that a Christian can perform that an atheist cannot perform. Please meditate on the difference. Again, here are four good examples: [A] pursuing the end for which one was made [B] giving God due worship, [C] refraining from lust, and [D] loving one’s enemies in a practical way.StephenB
April 25, 2010
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You and StephenB have great comprehension abilities. While I have a Gr.10 education and might feel I have a poetic license to mangle tenses sometimes, there is nothing I could write you couldn't understand. You know what I meant regardless of any garbled syntax that may have resulted from my less than perfect grasp of grammar. You can wiggle off the hook by attacking my grammar but why can't you address what I meant?Toronto
April 25, 2010
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Toronto, You said: Jesus didn’t give up 100%, I the atheist did. Put your money where your mouth is if you want to even begin a comparison to Jesus.Clive Hayden
April 25, 2010
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Clive Hayden @227, Why do you treat me with such disrespect? Show me a time where I have ever responded like you just have and pretended I didn't know what someone meant.Toronto
April 25, 2010
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Toronto,
Jesus didn’t give up 100%, I the atheist did.
No, you didn't. You're still alive aren't you?Clive Hayden
April 25, 2010
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StephenB @169,
That should read: There are many other ethical practices that a Christian could execute that would normally be out of range for an atheist, including the act of loving his enemies, refraining from lust, fulfilling his moral obligation to worship the Creator, and pursuing his final end.
An atheist is "pursuing his final end" when he gives his life for another because for an atheist, there is no existence after this one. A Christian making the decision of self sacrifice believes that there is another existence, which basically means no "final end" at all. This means a Christian is incapable of giving up his existence for anyone because his existence doesn't end when his Earthly life does. Your point was that an atheist couldn't do certain things a Christian could yet here we have a case where a Christian, by believing in an after-life, cannot perform an act an atheist could, namely self-sacrifice.Toronto
April 25, 2010
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05:24 AM
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