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Christopher’s Challenge

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Christopher Hitchens is nothing if not a straight-shooter. He calls it like he sees it, and not even a vicious attack could stop him from denouncing evil, racist ideologies that are still with us today. He is also a fearless and formidable debater. In recent years, he has declared himself an anti-theist, a term he defines as follows:

You could be an atheist and wish that the belief was true. You could; I know some people who do. An antitheist, a term I’m trying to get into circulation, is someone who’s very relieved that there’s no evidence for this proposition.

On Bastille Day in 2007, in response to an article entitled What Atheists Can’t Answer by op-ed columnist Michael Gerson in The Washington Post, Christopher Hitchens threw down the gauntlet to theists:

Here is my challenge. Let Gerson name one ethical statement made, or one ethical action performed, by a believer that could not have been uttered or done by a nonbeliever. And here is my second challenge. Can any reader of this column think of a wicked statement made, or an evil action performed, precisely because of religious faith? The second question is easy to answer, is it not? The first – I have been asking it for some time – awaits a convincing reply. By what right, then, do the faithful assume this irritating mantle of righteousness? They have as much to apologize for as to explain.

Hitchens has repeated this challenge on numerous occasions since then. The first time I heard him issue this challenge, I thought: “He has a point.” Going through the Ten Commandments (a natural starting point for someone raised in the Judeo-Christian tradition), it seemed to me that the only ones that a nonbeliever couldn’t keep were the ones relating to the worship of God. But Christopher Hitchens might reasonably object that if religious belief only makes believers more ethical in the way they relate to God, then it has no practical moral value. Surely, if God exists, then the belief that God is real should also infuse a deeper meaning into our interactions with other people. For the belief that God is real is meant to transform the way in which we think about and act towards others. In that case, there should be ethical actions directed at other human beings that a believer can perform, and that a nonbeliever cannot.

Christopher Hitchens has been criticized before for failing to provide a secular justification for his moral beliefs, and for waffling on the subject of free will. I will not rehash those criticisms here. Instead I will throw the floor open, and invite submissions from readers in answer to the following question:

Can you name an ethical action directed at other human beings, that a believer could perform, and that a nonbeliever could not?

To help readers along, I’ll make my question more focused. Let’s call it “Christopher’s Challenge”:

Can you name an ethical action directed at Christopher Hitchens, that a believer could perform, and that a nonbeliever could not?

I’m deeply ashamed to say that it took me two whole weeks to think of the answer to this question, and then I kicked myself hard for not having thought of it sooner. But I confidently predict that someone reading this post will come up with the answer within 24 hours.

Answers, anyone?

Update on Professor Feser’s response to my post

(By the way, I would like to thank Professor Edward Feser for his lengthy and detailed reply to my post, and I would like to add that I deeply respect his passion for truth. Professor Feser and I have a somewhat different understanding of Thomist metaphysics and how it should be interpreted in the 21st century, and I would also disagree with his bold claim that even if scientists one day managed to synthesize a life-form from scratch in a lab, that life-form would not be an artifact. But in the meantime, I would like to draw readers’ attention to a remark Professor Feser made in his post, “Intelligent Design” theory and mechanism, on 10 April 2010:

Perhaps the biological world God creates works according to Darwinian principles; and perhaps not.

Those were incautious words, and I believe they betray a profound misunderstanding of what Aquinas wrote on the Creation. In a forthcoming post, I will demonstrate that Aquinas would never have accepted the Darwinian account of how evolution is supposed to work, even if he had known then what we know now. I will also show that according to Aquinas, certain life-forms cannot be generated from non-living matter by any kind of natural process, even in a universe sustained by God, and rife with final causes. Stay tuned!)

Comments
Lenoxus @ 94 I believe that you may have misunderstood my statement. I did not say that unbelivers could not love. I said that they cannot make the aforementioned statement in sincerity without being illogical or lying. I was responding to the second half of the challenge. ~BJolsonbj
April 22, 2010
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re:161 Maybe none. But then again, all truth is God's truth and must be in accord.Charlie
April 22, 2010
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Wow. An hour's worth of comments posted while I wrote that. Just so you know, Allen, it was written before your last exchange with Charles. To be honest, and for what little it might be worth, I see these things mostly as he has.Charlie
April 22, 2010
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Thank you for that response, Allen, on ethical systems and rewards. When you said that Christians are not acting ethically because there is some kind of reward (in essence that is pleasing God - my point, not yours) I pointed out that if you applied your criteria fairly then there actually is no such thing as ethics or morality. As you have now agreed with me that all systems wind up at some kind of attainment your critique of Christianity in particular doesn't really hold and, again, by your standard there is no such thing as ethical behaviour at all. Of course I disagree with you, even though I've used this reductio to show where your critique ends up. You then ask what difference does belief make. First, it means one is possessed by truth and is in alignment/agreement with the Creator and sustainer of life. It means that he can accept and attain the promises and sacrifices made by God. ... I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live... Second, a survey of Western history might benefit such a query. Human rights, abolition, literacy, capitalism, hospitals, universities, the scientific method, ending infanticide (and sutee, and foot binding in China ...) etc. are all differences that experts in the field have attributed in whole or in great part to belief. Contrary to your misinformed use of statistics a while back, you could also have alook at prison populations and recidivism. For all its blips and the atrocities, so well documented by the eye-rolling challenge-presenting Hitchens, Christianity has a pretty good track record on the world stage. Third, scientific study and empirical methods are not the sole source of truth. Surely you agree? For instance ... Just last night one of my business acquaintances stopped me out of the blue to discuss Christianity. She has experienced a profound change in her life in the past year and surprised me with a long and passionate description of those changes and her new faith and understanding in and of Jesus. I was awed by the change and thanked her for sharing. Humbled, I then told her how encouraging that was to me because, unbeknownst to her, I and a friend have been praying during this past year for God to move in her life in just this way. She fought back tears and thanked me and said "so that explains the difference!". Unequivocal proof? Empirically verifiable? Convincing to anyone but those of involved? No, these are not my claims. All you skeptics can write it off and make up your reasons just as I would if you told me. Just as I likely will if some of you give your secular versions of this story. But this happened yesterday, to me, hours after I prayed for such encouragement. When I reported this encouragement to my other friend via email he said he had felt compelled and made a similar independent prayer on my behalf. I was also praying yesterday morning that God would speak to this friend and communicate with him on this day. God has reached down in Grace and love, coinciding all these mundane little events, to save this acquaintance and to strengthen my faith and that of my friend. That makes a difference to me. All the best. p.s. Allen, it is true that I think you act like a jerk. I think you are often arrogant, hypocritical, moralizing and judgmental. Maybe I am unfair to keep trying to show you that mirror (especially when it is true that I share these and worse). But I also think you are kind, loyal, well-intentioned, good hearted and willing to learn (not that you need my opinion or won't think it condescending). And so I hope you can appreciate my prayers for you. But I make intercession to God either way, in love.Charlie
April 22, 2010
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And so, back to my query in comment #153: Even if it could be unambiguously shown and universally agreed that people holding a specific ethical and/or religious belief system acted more (or less) ethically toward each other, toward strangers, etc., what conceivable relevance would this have on the validity of any scientific theory of the origin and evolution of life on Earth?Allen_MacNeill
April 22, 2010
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Actually, I should exempt vjtorley from my comment in #159. vj has indeed freely admitted that he might be in error and affirm that he will try to do better in the future. In the interests of civility and reasoned debate, I will try my best to do the same.Allen_MacNeill
April 22, 2010
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"...it seems an error that you chronically, specifically commit only with the Christian belief system, isn’t it." No, Charles, it isn't, but if it reinforces your prejudices, please continue to believe it. And Charles, when was the last time you saw anyone at this list freely admit they were wrong and affirm that they will try to do better in the future? Indeed, when was the last time you did so?Allen_MacNeill
April 22, 2010
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Agreed. Furthermore, let he who is without sin cast the first stone, Charles...Allen_MacNeill
April 22, 2010
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BTW the golden rule has a context:
“But I say to you who listen: Love your enemies, do what is good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If anyone hits you on the cheek, offer the other also. And if anyone takes away your coat, don’t hold back your shirt either. Give to everyone who asks from you, and from one who takes away your things, don’t ask for them back. Just as you want others to do for you, do the same for them. If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. If you do what is good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that.
It turns out the Golden Rule is rooted in loving others. ~BJolsonbj
April 22, 2010
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Allen_MacNeill:
I and my fellow students were regularly struck by our teacher as a method of reinforcing our learning of the multiplication tables. Yes, it was only a ruler whacked vigorously on our outstretched wrists,
vs.
who (like my best friend and her brother) were repeatedly beaten by their extremely devout Christian mother as a way to force them to go to church and recite fervently the lessons being forced upon them there
Hmmmm... whacked with a ruler on the wrists vs repeatedly beaten. Golly, Allen that is a tough one. I'll take door number one.
but it seems reasonable to categorize such behaviors as “physical beatings for pedagogical purposes”. Or is it only the severity of the “beating” that determines its character (or its efficacy)?
Since you already reasonably categorize her beating her kids for pedagogical purposes as little different than your being whacked with a ruler, and since you already rhetorically conclude that severity might merely be efficacious, and since both behaviors are reasonably categorized as “physical beatings for pedagogical purposes”, and since you've personally experienced one example of same, then aside from characterizing the devout Christianity of 'a mother who repeatedly beats her kids for failing to learn their bible lessons', there really was little point to your "question", was there.
And yes, it is once again a failing of mine that I would characterize a belief system by the actions of one of its more unhinged (indeed, vicious) adherents. IN doing so, I have once again committed a “fundamental attribution error”
Perhaps your philosophy professor should have beaten you repeatedly (for greater pedagogical efficacy, of course) as whatever method he did employ seems to have been lost on you. Your problem, Mr. Mac Neill, is not that you occasionally, generally "characterize a belief system by the actions of one of its more unhinged (indeed, vicious) adherents", but rather it seems an error that you chronically, specifically commit only with the Christian belief system, isn't it. Only after being pressed did you acknowledge the distinction of an 'unhinged viciousness' in the mother, an 'unhinged viciousness' which no doubt you failed to detect in your teacher. You didn't pose the question "how many people reading this thread know anyone who (like myself and fellow students) were repeatedly whacked on the wrist with a ruler by a zealous Mathematician as a way to force them to go learn their multiplication tables", did you. No. It was the "devout Christianity" of an unhinged vicious mother which you found titillating, didn't you. You confuse the civility towards your posts with which you are generally treated here, with credulity for your motivations.
Making assumptions about anyone on the basis of their association with any group (atheist, Christian, Muslim, or whatever) is the basis of the FAE, and is always fallacious (and often leads to extraordinary evil).
Then if you don't like how that's been working out for you, you might try not doing it. Lead by example. Keep your own hands clean.Charles
April 22, 2010
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zeroseven @ 104 I don't believe that a person that loves themselves cannot love another. What I said was that self-love makes a poor foundation for ethics. I imagine that it was self-love that led many Catholics in the leadership to "protect" the mother church by covering up horrific crimes (not in line with Loving God or Loving others). Self-love does not naturally lead to a ethical act. I think that was the point I was trying to make. Where as loving others (young children in this case) would. ~BJ PS It also seem that Pedophile Priests are the new Reductio ad Hitlerum. Godwin's Law for child abusing priests anyone?olsonbj
April 22, 2010
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Allen:
And, after reading charles’s response, I realize that my generalization of my experiences with the “demonizing” type of Christian is what could easily be referred to as “fundamental attribution error”.
A very small point: Does not the "fundamental attribution error" have a bit narrower definition in psychology than your use here? It refers to the universal tendency to over-value personality or dispositional-based explanations of others' behavior (not group membership or stereotype) while under-valuing situational explanations for those behaviors. This contrasts with one's interpretation/justification of one's own behavior, which tends to include more references to situational factors. Short version: when he behaves badly it's because he's a jerk. When I behave badly it is due to circumstances.Merthin Builder
April 22, 2010
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At this point it also seems quite striking to me that vjtorley (a person whose discernment and judgment I respect) can only find one action that a believer could perform that a non-believer could not (i.e. intercessory prayer) and that there is no reliable empirical evidence that this action has detectable effects, it raises the question "What difference does it make if one is a believer or not?" It has been my experience that both believers and non-believers generally feel that their respective positions provide them with both emotional satisfaction and legitimate justifications for their actions and beliefs. If not, they sometimes "switch sides", and after doing so sometimes find the satisfaction and justifications for their beliefs and actions that were previously lacking. It also seems to me that every person can (and indeed should) try to be the best, most ethical person they can be, an outcome devoutly to be wished (and productive of salutary outcomes), and not necessarily dependent on one's religious beliefs or lack thereof. And finally, I myself need to be constantly aware of my tendency to jump to conclusions about the character and motivations of individuals on the basis of their associations. Given all of this, what does any of this have to do with intelligent design (or the lack thereof) in evolutionary biology?Allen_MacNeill
April 22, 2010
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Once again, the answer to the question "what justifies your ethics" is the fundamental question. Are ethical prescriptions justified by their internal logical coherence, by their effects, by the quality of the character of those who profess them, or some combination of these? Or, alternatively, is the entire justification for a system of ethics to be found in the assertion "So-and-so said to do thus-and-such, therefore that's the right thing to do"?Allen_MacNeill
April 22, 2010
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Re Charlie in comment #146: Please note that I am not myself asserting that deontological ethics are necessarily non-consequentialist, I am merely reporting what the majority of students of ethics assert vis-a-vis that proposition. Indeed, I personally agree with you: it seems to me that all ethical systems are necessarily teleological and consequentialist, including eudaemonian/virtue ethics, despite G. E. M. Anscombe's arguments to the contrary. This assessment also applies to all religiously grounded systems of ethics, including those in the Abrahamic tradition, which to me also rely fundamentally on the attainment of intended outcomes (and, of course, what matters is the attempt, not whether or not one actually attains the intended outcome).Allen_MacNeill
April 22, 2010
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Re Charles in comment #142:
"It is difficult to take such a question seriously. On what planet are physical beatings for pedagogical purposes (not discipline) ever given any credence no matter what the religious background?"
How old are you, Charles, and where did you go to elementary school? In the fourth grade (on this planet, BTW), I and my fellow students were regularly struck by our teacher as a method of reinforcing our learning of the multiplication tables. Yes, it was only a ruler whacked vigorously on our outstretched wrists, but it seems reasonable to categorize such behaviors as "physical beatings for pedagogical purposes". Or is it only the severity of the "beating" that determines its character (or its efficacy)? The point to my question was not to insinuate that Christians necessarily beat their children to make them "better Christians", the point was to give some insight into why I might possibly have a somewhat jaundiced view of how some Christians practice their "faith". And yes, it is once again a failing of mine that I would characterize a belief system by the actions of one of its more unhinged (indeed, vicious) adherents. IN doing so, I have once again committed a "fundamental attribution error", but one that seems extraordinarily common on both sides of this issue. Making assumptions about anyone on the basis of their association with any group (atheist, Christian, Muslim, or whatever) is the basis of the FAE, and is always fallacious (and often leads to extraordinary evil).Allen_MacNeill
April 22, 2010
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#148 Charlie The papers referred to in your link are the Hodge metastudy, Byrd, Harris and Leibovici - all discussed above. MarkMark Frank
April 22, 2010
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I haven't followed the prayer study chat here, and have never worried about whether or not God allows His actions to be scrutable to the scientific method, but in case you are not already discussing this info, here's one link I saved some time ago. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/prayer.html#gzyLFfn0xy1ZCharlie
April 21, 2010
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#138 vjtorley As an Open University student I have electronic access to most academic journals. Here is the list of studies in the Hodges metastudy that showed statistically significant benefit from prayer: Byrd (1988) Harris, Thoresen, McCullough, and Larson (1999) Furlow and O'Quinn (2002) Sicher, Targ, Moore, and Smith (1998) Leibovici (2001) Cha and Wirth You will see that one of these is indeed Leibovici and that Byrd and Harris are included in the list. Norvig did not explicitly mention them when discussing Hodge but they are the same studies.You say Norvig does not think the Byrd and Harris studies are invalidated but he does write of Byrd: "When we discount the results from overzealous data mining there are no significant differences left between the control and the prayer groups, but there are some promising pointers for future research " and something similar applies to Harris. Over zealous data mining is a serious flaw. Do you still hold that: "A fair-minded person would conclude that there is good evidence that prayer works sometimes." Or would you now concede that perhaps that was a mistake?Mark Frank
April 21, 2010
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Hi Allen, Contrasting deontological theories of ethics with consequentialism does not address the question. I didn't ask about how the right is determined but in which theories people would follow that which is right but receive no reward. You've referenced Kant and deontology at the same time that you accuse Christianity of offering rewards for good behaviour (thus, the good they do isn't really good) ignoring the fact that those self-same Christians believe in something akin to Kant's deontological theory. Ergo, your reference does not answer the question, even to your own satisfaction. Just because the right is not determined by its consequences does not mean that those who do what is right are not being rewarded, or do not anticipate some kind of reward. Likewise, if you are going to make such things as "pleasing God", "doing His will", or entering into Eternal Life a reward that erases the morality of a behaviour then it still stands that you have yet to show a system which allows for moral behaviour with no rewards. In fact, Kant's theory, he said was "practically helpful", and following moral laws allows moral agents proper dignity. Ergo, they are rewarded.Charlie
April 21, 2010
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37 Allen_MacNeill:
As for Mother Teresa of Calcutta, Christopher Hitchens himself had quite a bit to say about her: http://www.slate.com/id/2090083/
After reading that, now I know for sure that Mr. Hitchens is nothing but a hate-filled, callous and venemous bigot. Sometimes, there is no sense in debating people like that. This is possibly worse than dealing with stubborn closed-mindedness.JPCollado
April 21, 2010
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None of the non-theists will be able to do what Bruce Olson was able to accomplish. And that's just scratching the surface.JPCollado
April 21, 2010
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Charles makes a good point, my grandmother was as old fashion and as fundamentalist as they got, if we behaved really badly, we might have gotten whacked in the behind with the fleshy part of the hand, but she was fiercely loyal and loving to her family and friends, and even offered help to her enemies, fed people offered shelter, but she never beat us for not wanting to go to church, and I never had any Christian friends that were beaten either. I'm not saying it never happened or happens, I'm just saying it was so uncommon in my upbringing that I never personally knew of friend who was beaten for not wanting to attend church. Again, Charles makes a point, maybe unfortunately your mother could be mentally ill, and perhaps you come from an unstable gene pool. I don't mean to be rude or crude, I'm just trying to be consistent with your biological or materialist approach of viewing the world.THEMAYAN
April 21, 2010
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Allen_MacNeill:
I stand corrected.
I am surprised by your candor.
how many people reading this thread know anyone who (like my best friend and her brother) were repeatedly beaten by their extremely devout Christian mother as a way to force them to go to church and recite fervently the lessons being forced upon them there
It is difficult to take such a question seriously. On what planet are physical beatings for pedagogical purposes (not discipline) ever given any credence no matter what the religious background? Were the question about "an atheist biology teacher who repeatedly beat his children to help them learn evolution", would anyone not dispute the atheist's sanity instead of his Darwinism? Yet let an apparently unbalanced (ostensibly) "Christian" repeatedly beat her children to learn their bible, and it's her Christianity that is emphasized instead of her insanity. Good grief! Aside from Islamic extremists (noted for their honor killings and terrorism) what religion legitimizes repeated beatings for failure to learn its religion? I doubt you suspect that even Ann Coulter, Pat Robertson, Jimmy Swaggart, Oral Roberts, Garner Ted Armstrong, physically beat their children to force them to learn church teaching. "Spare the rod and spoil the child" is about corrective discipline, not bible study. Did you anticipate a series of anecdotes responding "Yeah, I know perfectly normal Christian people who beat their kids every time they forget a bible verse"? Does it not occur to you that, even if true, at best, your friends' mother has mental issues that far outweigh any "Christian" characteristics, and your asking such an illdesigned loaded question has the appearance of yet more polemical insincerity?Charles
April 21, 2010
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Either that, or PaV is arguing that the only thing that matters in the commission of evil acts is the number of people harmed, not that fact that they have been deliberately harmed. In other words (and according to PaV's logic), quantity matters, not quality, and so the actions of the Christian hierarchy during the inquisition were only 160/60 million (i.e. 0.00000267) as evil as those done by Mao Tse Tung. By such a standard, anyone reading this can go next door and murder their neighbor and rape her 4 children and in doing so commit only 0.00000008 as much evil as Mao Tse Tung.Allen_MacNeill
April 21, 2010
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In comment #128 PaV wrote:
"As to what terribel things have been done in the name of religion, why not turn the tables on Hitchens: the Catholic Church could have put to death 60 million people like the atheist Mao Zedong did; but they only put 160 to death over three centuries during the Inquistion. Why doesn’t Hitchens answer for the incredible inhumanity demonstrated by atheists over the last few centuries?"
Because he doesn't have to. This is an obvious tu quoque argument, and therefore has no logical force whatsoever.Allen_MacNeill
April 21, 2010
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And this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Missionary_Position_%28book%29Allen_MacNeill
April 21, 2010
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Mark Frank (#111) Thank you for your post. I haven't been able to access the original version of Hodge's 2007 study; I was only able to view the abstract. Thus I am not sure exactly what the names of the 17 studies that the meta-study examined were. I noticed you mentioned Leibovici (2001). Are you sure his study was included in Hodge's meta-study? Looking at Norvig's article at http://norvig.com/prayer.html , it seems he didn't have much to say on the Hodge meta-study, except for mentioning the flaws in the Cha/Wirth study:
One serious problem with this meta-analysis is that it includes the discredited Cha/Wirth study. If removing that study eliminated 88% of the effect in Masters' study, it seems likely that removing it from Hodge's study would yield no significant difference on the remaining studies. But I don't have access to the numbers so I can't know that for sure.
I acknowledge your legitimate concerns about data-mining with Harris and Byrd, which Norvig also mentioned. Still, he didn't seem to think that invalidated the studies. "Trouble in the Library" by Wallace Sampson at http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=210 was one of the links I included in post #99 above, but I have to say the author's tone is very hostile at times, and he seemed bent on doing a hatchet job on the Hodge study. Although he pointed to some flaws in the positive studies, I soon found myself wondering if the negative studies weren't just as bad as the ones purporting to show a positive result, and I was dismayed that he used "background information on proponents" of intercessory prayer, to undermine studies he didn't like. It seems that all meta-studies have their flaws, despite endeavoring to screen out bad studies. Hodge (2007) is one of the best of a bad bunch. Maybe it's better to look at individual studies, which are "closer to the coalface" as it were. Clive's post above is well worth pondering. Maybe Lewis had a good point after all, when criticizing the idea of prayer experiments. It will take a while to sort this one out, I think.vjtorley
April 21, 2010
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As for Mother Teresa of Calcutta, Christopher Hitchens himself had quite a bit to say about her: http://www.slate.com/id/2090083/Allen_MacNeill
April 21, 2010
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BTW, my best friend and her brother are also "anti-theists" like Christopher Hitchens, whom they revere as one of their champions in "fighting the good fight" (against people like their mother, I suspect).Allen_MacNeill
April 21, 2010
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