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Christopher’s Challenge

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Christopher Hitchens is nothing if not a straight-shooter. He calls it like he sees it, and not even a vicious attack could stop him from denouncing evil, racist ideologies that are still with us today. He is also a fearless and formidable debater. In recent years, he has declared himself an anti-theist, a term he defines as follows:

You could be an atheist and wish that the belief was true. You could; I know some people who do. An antitheist, a term I’m trying to get into circulation, is someone who’s very relieved that there’s no evidence for this proposition.

On Bastille Day in 2007, in response to an article entitled What Atheists Can’t Answer by op-ed columnist Michael Gerson in The Washington Post, Christopher Hitchens threw down the gauntlet to theists:

Here is my challenge. Let Gerson name one ethical statement made, or one ethical action performed, by a believer that could not have been uttered or done by a nonbeliever. And here is my second challenge. Can any reader of this column think of a wicked statement made, or an evil action performed, precisely because of religious faith? The second question is easy to answer, is it not? The first – I have been asking it for some time – awaits a convincing reply. By what right, then, do the faithful assume this irritating mantle of righteousness? They have as much to apologize for as to explain.

Hitchens has repeated this challenge on numerous occasions since then. The first time I heard him issue this challenge, I thought: “He has a point.” Going through the Ten Commandments (a natural starting point for someone raised in the Judeo-Christian tradition), it seemed to me that the only ones that a nonbeliever couldn’t keep were the ones relating to the worship of God. But Christopher Hitchens might reasonably object that if religious belief only makes believers more ethical in the way they relate to God, then it has no practical moral value. Surely, if God exists, then the belief that God is real should also infuse a deeper meaning into our interactions with other people. For the belief that God is real is meant to transform the way in which we think about and act towards others. In that case, there should be ethical actions directed at other human beings that a believer can perform, and that a nonbeliever cannot.

Christopher Hitchens has been criticized before for failing to provide a secular justification for his moral beliefs, and for waffling on the subject of free will. I will not rehash those criticisms here. Instead I will throw the floor open, and invite submissions from readers in answer to the following question:

Can you name an ethical action directed at other human beings, that a believer could perform, and that a nonbeliever could not?

To help readers along, I’ll make my question more focused. Let’s call it “Christopher’s Challenge”:

Can you name an ethical action directed at Christopher Hitchens, that a believer could perform, and that a nonbeliever could not?

I’m deeply ashamed to say that it took me two whole weeks to think of the answer to this question, and then I kicked myself hard for not having thought of it sooner. But I confidently predict that someone reading this post will come up with the answer within 24 hours.

Answers, anyone?

Update on Professor Feser’s response to my post

(By the way, I would like to thank Professor Edward Feser for his lengthy and detailed reply to my post, and I would like to add that I deeply respect his passion for truth. Professor Feser and I have a somewhat different understanding of Thomist metaphysics and how it should be interpreted in the 21st century, and I would also disagree with his bold claim that even if scientists one day managed to synthesize a life-form from scratch in a lab, that life-form would not be an artifact. But in the meantime, I would like to draw readers’ attention to a remark Professor Feser made in his post, “Intelligent Design” theory and mechanism, on 10 April 2010:

Perhaps the biological world God creates works according to Darwinian principles; and perhaps not.

Those were incautious words, and I believe they betray a profound misunderstanding of what Aquinas wrote on the Creation. In a forthcoming post, I will demonstrate that Aquinas would never have accepted the Darwinian account of how evolution is supposed to work, even if he had known then what we know now. I will also show that according to Aquinas, certain life-forms cannot be generated from non-living matter by any kind of natural process, even in a universe sustained by God, and rife with final causes. Stay tuned!)

Comments
Three questions relating to prayer have arisen on this post. (1) Is it wrong to pray for a non-believer, especially one who does not wish to be prayed for? (2) In general, is prayer meritorious? (3) Is prayer efficacious? We need to keep these questions separate. Lenoxus (#57)
Wow, I’m amazed to see the repeated answer “pray for his soul”... for this very simple reason: any God who manages to survive the Problem of Evil is completely demolished by the Problem of Hell, something which “praying for his soul” absolutely requires to exist. Now what does it say about God that he changes his mind on whether to torture someone forever and ever (the default treatment of the deceased) based on the correctly-ritualized petitions of believers, whose thoughts he is always aware of anyway? Yes, some believers argue that Hell is not punishment for nonbelievers, but simply the destination they choose for themselves; theists will argue things like "You wouldn't want to be in God's presence anyway". The whole notion of praying-for-souls completely contradicts that - apparently, atheists would in fact prefer Heaven, if genuinely given the choice. Or is it possible for Hitchens to find himself in Paradise and think, "Damn those prayers! If I'd known the options, this is not the one I'd have chosen!"
Points in response to Lenoxus. (a) Apparently Lenoxus doesn't understand the doctrine of the communion of saints. The idea is that we can all help each other in various ways, including intercessory prayer. In particular, the saints in Heaven can help us, by their prayers, for "the prayer of a just man availeth much" (James 5:16). Prayers have no magic power of their own; rather, God wants us to pray unceasingly for each other, so that when He helps someone in need, it is through and because of the intercessory prayer of someone else. That's the way it should work. (b) Prayers are not "ritualized petitions" that magically bring about the right results (e.g. Heaven for sinners). Prayers for the salvation of sinners only work by bringing about a change in their hearts. Without this change of heart, no sinner can go to Heaven. (c) God is a respecter of human choices; He will not impose salvation upon us against our wishes. Nobody who dies hating God could possibly go to Heaven. Thus the probability of Christopher Hitchens finding himself in Paradise and thinking, "Damn those prayers!" is precisely zero. If he goes to Heaven (which he may well do), he will go there as someone whose heart is open to God. (d) Does anyone go to Hell simply because they were not prayed for? No. God wants everyone to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4), and does all He can to save us, before we make that final choice that determines our fate in the hereafter. "What's the point of praying for atheists, then, if God is going to assist them anyway?" Short answer: (1) praying for them will help you get saved; (2) if you pray for them, they will be saved through your prayers, and acts like these strengthen the spiritual bonds between human beings; (3) in any case, there may be special graces that God only bestows if enough people pray, in addition to other graces that God bestows whether people pray or not. We don’t know how God has set up the scheme of things. All we know is that it’s fair, and good for us. (e) Regarding "torture in hell": "fire" is not the dominant Biblical image of hell; rather, it is most often described as a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth - in other words, bitter regrets. Christian theologians have always taught that the greatest pain of hell is the eternal spiritual desolation caused by an individual's self-imposed permanent separation from God. (f) God does not change His mind (see Malachi 3:6; James 1:18). Scriptural statements which apparently say the contrary (e.g. God regretting that He had made human beings, and sending the Flood as a punishment in Genesis 6) are written from a time-bound human perpsective. People sometimes change their behavior for the worse, and if they wilfully set their faces against Him, they will incur the consequences God has already arranged for sinners. (g) The question of whether someone would want to be in God's presence depends on their state of mind. Obviously an anti-theist like Christopher Hitchens wouldn't want to be in God's presence, given his present state of mind. Someone who prays for Christopher Hitchens hopes that he will one day change his mind about God, and open his heart. (h) Would atheists prefer to be in Heaven or Hell? It depends on which atheists we are talking about, and what kind of hypotheticals we are formulating. For any atheist, it is true that they would prefer to be in Heaven if they believed in a loving God (which they currently don't). It is also true that they will prefer to be in Heaven if they ever undergo a change of heart. Regarding "anti-theistic" atheists, it is also true that while they are opposed to the whole idea of God, they would definitely prefer to be in Hell. "Occam's razor" atheists who are skeptical about religion but not anti-theistic are in a different category. These atheists would never prefer Hell to Heaven; they just don't happen to believe in either. There are many reasons for unbelief. Some are morally culpable; some are not. Whatever the reasons, we should still pray for atheists. (i) We should not worry about good atheists being damned. God knows the secrets of the human heart. There are some unfortunate people who suffer from psychological blocks (for which they are not morally culpable) that prevent them from believing. We do not know what God does for these people in their final moments of a person's life on Earth, but we know that God is able to remove the blocks, and let these people make a genuinely free choice. zeroseven (#61)
Very well put Lenoxus. I think that shows that there is absolutely nothing ethical about praying for someone. Particularly when that person has already made it clear that he regards the idea of heaven as something much worse than North Korea. There is nothing ethical about thinking you know someone’s mind better than they do themselves.
In response to zeroseven: There is nothing ethical about thinking you know someone’s mind better than they do themselves. Agreed. But sometimes you may know something that someone else doesn't, and you may be able to see that that person's ignorance is causing them a great deal of unhappiness, as it is leading them to make self-destructive personal choices. Under such circumstances, you should try to change that person's mind, rather than just leaving them alone to stew in their own juice. That's what a caring person would do. Finally, God knows our minds better than we do, and even if we adamantly insist that we don't want Him, God will do all He can to persuade us otherwise, before we get to make our final choice for or against Him. I'd also like to comment on the following exchange: Collin (#65)
So the real point is that a non-believer would never have chosen the route of prayer and may have never had the inspiration to write his son those letters.
zeroseven (#66)
Hi Collin, this doesn’t refute Hitchens’ point at all as a non-believer could equally well have written those letters. And I have to say I think the non-believer would be more ethical in being able to express love for his son without having to pray for it.
Zeroseven made a valid point in saying that a non-believer could have written those letters, which would be meritorious. But he was wrong in assuming that the non-believing father would have accomplished just as much good by writing the letters, as the believing father would have by writing the letters and praying for his son. But is prayer efficacious? Allen MacNeill (#55)
If I tell you that the sun comes up because I do a special dance every morning before dawn and then point to the empirical facts that I performed the dance this morning and the sun came up, would this qualify as evidence unequivocally supporting my assertion?
No. Historically, Jews and Christians have never prayed for laws of nature to keep holding. Traditionally, they are construed more as promises, and their holding is seen as a sign of God's constancy. God will not break His word. With intercessory prayer, it is another matter. God has made no promise; and we also have an obligation to our fellow human beings. A fair-minded person would conclude that there is good evidence that prayer works sometimes. I’ll say more about this anon.vjtorley
April 19, 2010
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I think there is another answer to Christopher's Challenge. A Christian will sometimes do a good deed for someone else without ANYBODY ever finding out, but so that only God will know and reward the Christian for it. If Christopher had read the Sermon on the Mount, Mt.6, he would have known about this. Admittedly, this sort of good deed is hard to do, because we all like to be credited for it when we do something good, even if it is simply by someone else noticing. But our motive involves this kickback, thus compromising the true goodness of our action. But with this purest form of altruism, there is no way an atheist would do it. They are always braqging (on the internet) about how they give money to needy people in faraway countries.andrew
April 19, 2010
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#70 :)Upright BiPed
April 19, 2010
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Hi Allen and VJTorley, My apologies for the rhetoric I used and for the ease with which it could, and likely would, poison the mood here. That said, Allen, let me follow up with my planned response, which you likely have predicted. First, I obviously did not call you a jerk. I asked a question meant to illuminate the nature of your comment to Collin, and, in fact, your work on this thread. As is so often the case, I was mainly highlighting the discrepancy between the standards you hold for yourself and that you expect others to meet. You actually have not addressed the OP, or the very accurate answers to that OP which were presented, which you merely called "unconvincing" (convincing of what?) Instead you decided to expound as you do and then try to change the question and direction of the thread. Graciously, your host has said he will answer your questions. And then, in defending your irrelevant series of questions to Collin, in which you misread, mocked and misrepresented him, you again tried to reframe what the question was. Yes, the questions you asked had very obvious answers - so obvious I asked what was the point in asking them and why were you not just, instead, understanding what Collin was saying. I was trying to illuminate, mostly to you, how you come across and how this does not always square with your demands for gentlemanly, scholarly, and respectful discourse. It's pretty far off topic, so I will drop it here and now ... on this thread, of course.Charlie
April 19, 2010
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Here's Christopher's challenge wearing a red dress http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY7Hh5PzELosteveO
April 19, 2010
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olsonbj, Hitchens also make the point that there is nothing ethical about loving your neighbour as yourself. Your neighbour might not deserve your love. I am not a war-monger like Hitchens, but I don't believe it is ethical to love everyone. Nor for that matter is it possible. Forgive everyone, yes, but not love. You are better off to love yourself first because from that flows the ability to understand and accept others.zeroseven
April 19, 2010
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Hitchen's question:
Here is my challenge. Let Gerson name one ethical statement made, or one ethical action performed, by a believer that could not have been uttered or done by a nonbeliever.
My response: Miraculously cure someone. Peter heals the lame man in the Acts of the Apostles. Saints have healed people throughout the centuries. Cures are obviously ethical, and a non-believer could not invoke the supernatural power needed to perform such a deed.PaV
April 19, 2010
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Jacobpressures, You've asked some very interesting questions. You wrote (#47):
Suppose an atheist, sincerely worried about the plight of a daughter or loved one, prays, “If there is a God, please, please let nothing bad happen.” Who is to say that God can’t answer that prayer? And who is to say that the prayer was not sincere.
I agree. But that action would have to be performed to someone who was at least open to the possibility of there being a God. You also wrote (#45):
I think the question, “Can you name an ethical action directed at other human beings, that a believer could perform, and that a nonbeliever could not?” is framed wrong! ...As long as we are free moral agents, anyone can mimic an action. That doesn’t mean they have heart! They can do the exact same thing but with ulterior motives. Of course atheists can also have sincere, noble motives.
What do you call an action? If you mean "bodily movement," then of course anyone can mimic a bodily movement. But now consider the action of making a promise. Suppose that two people - let's call them A and B - mouth the same words, "I'll pay you back tomorrow," when borrowing $100 from a friend. A intends to do just that, while B has no intention of doing so. Are they performing the same action? I would say not. A is making a promise, while B is lying. In other words, the intention with which one performs an action is part-and-parcel of the action itself. Well, what about one's motive? I don't think a poor motive changes the character of an action. One might make a promise because one anticipates good consequences, or because one fears bad consequences, or simply because one wishes to live and act according to moral rules. But in all cases the action is the same, if the requisite intention is there. Motive is however relevant to the question of how meritorious the action is. I found your story of the Jehovah's Witness woman very moving. Finally, I would agree with your comment (#45) that "atheists under very excruciating circumstances will be less likely to STICK TO HIGH MORAL PRINCIPLES or values when the opportunity arises," as a statistical observation, although I hasten to add that I do know some very noble-minded atheists who are better people than I am. Incidentally, I don't believe that atheists necessarily go to hell. I'll be back in a few hours, and I'll also respond to Lenoxus, zeroseven, Seversky and Allen MacNeill. I'm looking forward to a civil if spirited exchange of views.vjtorley
April 19, 2010
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Perhaps the second part then, "The second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets depend on these two commands," Matthew 22:39-40 (HCSB) It seems this also points out the ethical dilemma for the non-believer. If you love your neighbor what is it that love depends on. If you reject the law and the prophets the statement becomes illogical and possibly unethical. ~BJolsonbj
April 19, 2010
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Hi Collin, this doesn't refute Hitchen's point at all as a non-believer could equally well have written those letters. And I have to say I think the non-believer would be more ethical in being able to express love for his son without having to pray for it.zeroseven
April 19, 2010
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Allen, So the real point is that a non-believer would never have chosen the route of prayer and may have never had the inspiration to write his son those letters. Even if you don't believe that God inspired him, it still partially refutes Hitchen's argument, I think.Collin
April 19, 2010
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Allen, I believe that the point was that the father had no loving feeling towards his son, but through prayer God softened his heart and gave him an idea that worked. I am not saying that the prayer or God, because of the prayer, did anything directly to the son. But I do not say that that did not happen either.Collin
April 19, 2010
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I almost forgot this one Lenoxus: Hell - A Warning! http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4131476/hell_a_warning/bornagain77
April 19, 2010
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further note Lenoxus: Dr Richard Kent M.D. speaks about his study of over 300 cases of near death experiences (Heaven and Hell) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_VcXLVvJVc Near death experiences are real - Medical doctors who have studied the phenomenon - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYEZOMb4VlEbornagain77
April 19, 2010
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Very well put Lenoxus. I think that shows that there is absolutely nothing ethical about praying for someone. Particularly when that person has already made it clear that he regards the idea of heaven as something much worse than North Korea. There is nothing ethical about thinking you know someone's mind better than they do themselves. Hitchens regards the whole Jesus sacrifice on the cross thing as one of the most unethical acts imaginable, and I would have to agree with him on that. I don't believe it can ever be ethical to set aside your own judgment about right and wrong and submit yourself to a higher power to make that decision for you.zeroseven
April 19, 2010
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Lenoxus, If you don't believe in hell maybe you ought to take a look at these: The Physical Ashen Remains Of Sodom and Gomorrah - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwTVFk1HK3Y please note that the trace elements found in the sulfur balls make the sulfur burn much hotter than it normally would: further note: scientific evidence that we actually do live after death: The Day I Died - Part 4 of 6 - The NDE of Pam Reynolds - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045560 Blind Woman Can See During Near Death Experience - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994599 coast to coast – Blind since birth – Vicki’s NDE http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=99EAF86E08E54010 Kenneth Ring and Sharon Cooper (1997) conducted a study of 31 blind people, many of who reported being able to see during their NDEs. 21 of these people had had an NDE while the remaining 10 had had an out-of-body experience (OBE), but no NDE. It was found that in the NDE sample, about half had been blind from birth. In all, 15 of the 21 NDEers and 9 of the 10 OBEers could see during their experience while the remaining participants either claimed that they did not see or were not sure whether or not they had seen. scientific evidence that non-Judeo-Christian cultures have "hellish NDE's: Near-Death Experiences in Thailand - Todd Murphy: Excerpt:The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of 'going'. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific tortures, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves. http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm A militant atheist NDE: Former Atheist Howard Storm's Hellish NDE - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF7AzxplsMEbornagain77
April 19, 2010
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Charlie in comment #49: Who is calling whom a jerk, here? And who is being uncivil and casting aspersions on someone else's character (as opposed to the logic of their arguments), and who is attempting to have a meaningful discussion of the logic behind vj torley's query? To be specific, I asked a series of questions intended to "illuminate" the logic behind Collin's story, very simple questions with what seemed to me to be reasonably obvious answers. We are talking about cause and effect, here, and making arguments about what constitutes ethics and altruism, and I asked some pointed questions intended to delineate the differences between certain assumptions about cause and effect, and the difference between intentions and actions in the domain of ethics. How is that "being a jerk" and how am I the person being "uncivil" not pursuing a "meaningful discussion"?Allen_MacNeill
April 19, 2010
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Charlie @49: Tsk, tsk. What is civil about calling someone a jerk? How old are you?Adel DiBagno
April 19, 2010
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Wow, I'm amazed to see the repeated answer "pray for his soul". Not because of any logical problem with souls/afterlives in and of themselves, but for this very simple reason: any God who manages to survive the Problem of Evil is completely demolished by the Problem of Hell, something which "praying for his soul" absolutely requires to exist. #28 Matteo put it pretty starkly:
I’ve prayed for Dawkins, I’ve prayed for Hitchens. My assumption would be that should they find themselves in Paradise, they’ll find that they will have many believers to thank, but needing to thank their militant atheist compadres? Not so much.
Now what does it say about God that he changes his mind on whether to torture someone forever and ever (the default treatment of the deceased) based on the correctly-ritualized petitions of believers, whose thoughts he is always aware of anyway? "I'm sorry, Robert, but the prayer quota was insufficient for you to join us here. It's a shame, because your Wiccan friends kept meditating with you in mind — whoops — and I know you were a decent person, but… you're going to have to be tortured forever now. Hey, if you didn't want the time, you shouldn't have committed an infinite amount of evil." Yes, some believers argue that Hell is not punishment for nonbelievers, but simply the destination they choose for themselves; theists will argue things like "You wouldn't want to be in God's presence anyway". The whole notion of praying-for-souls completely contradicts that — apparently, atheists would in fact prefer Heaven, if genuinely given the choice. Or is it possible for Hitchens to find himself in Paradise and think, "Damn those prayers! If I'd known the options, this is not the one I'd have chosen!"Lenoxus
April 19, 2010
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Allen, are you being a jerk? You know full well it is not unequivocal evidence. It was not presented as such and Collin plainly said it was "illuminating". Why are you like this when you claim to want to, and then often try so hard, to have civil and meaningful discussions? What possible difference do your questions make to you or to this discourse?Charlie
April 19, 2010
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In comment #43 collin wrote:
"...each week for about a year he wrote his son a letter, telling him that he loves him and that he hopes his son would come back. His son did come back and told his father that he believes that those letters saved his life." [Emphasis added]
What if the father had prayed for his son every week, but did nothing else; would the outcome have been the same? The son told his father that the letters saved his life. Collin also wrote:
"I believe that the father’s letters would not have happened without his praying for his son."
For the sake of argument, let's grant that the father would not have written the letters without also praying. Is this direct and unequivocal evidence for the assertion that the prayers were the cause of the son's reclamation, or evidence that the letters were? Again, would the outcome have been the same if the father had prayed for his son, but had not written the letters, or had not communicated his love for his son in some way that the son could somehow (directly or indirectly) perceive? Would the outcome have been different if the father had sent the letters (assuming they contained the same verbal content), but had not also prayed? Finally, and again for the sake of argument: If I tell you that the sun comes up because I do a special dance every morning before dawn and then point to the empirical facts that I performed the dance this morning and the sun came up, would this qualify as evidence unequivocally supporting my assertion?Allen_MacNeill
April 19, 2010
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Thanks, vj, I'm looking forward to it!Allen_MacNeill
April 19, 2010
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Is it ethical for a Muslim or a Mormon to pray for Hitchens' soul too? If those prayers are asking for something which you believe would be condemning him to an eternity in Hell, I don't see how that could be the case. Indeed, if a Muslim was doing all they could to get someone to become a convert to Islam, you would likely deem that to be deeply immoral. Thus this type of act can only begin to be considered as ethical if you qualify it by adding, "Assuming that we are right and the God we worship is the real God then...".tyke
April 19, 2010
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Thank you, everyone. Well, my 24-hour bet certainly paid off. The best answers to "Christopher's challenge" (Can you name an ethical action directed at Christopher Hitchens, that a believer could perform, and that a nonbeliever could not?) were the following: Charlie (#1):
For him: You can offer intercessory prayer for him. To him: You can reach out to him in true love of his soul love with the truth and with the knowledge necessary for his soul’s salvation.
GilDodgen (#4):
How about any action directed at concern for the fate of his soul? If it turns out that we do have immortal souls with their fate hanging in the balance, such an action would certainly be ethical, and could never be undertaken by a nonbeliever.
Matteo (#28):
Regarding what a believer can do for Hitchens that an unbeliever couldn't: How about praying for his salvation?
nullasalus (#29):
Care for someone’s spiritual, rather than material well-being. For a materialist atheist, there is no ’spiritual’ well-being.
Those were the kinds of answers I had in mind. "Trying to save his soul" is how I would have put it myself. olsonbj (#44), you gave an interesting example of an ethical statement, but I'm afraid it wasn't directed at Christopher Hitchens, as I stipulated. Some readers remarked that Christopher Hitchens wouldn't appreciate anyone trying to save his soul, or praying for him. PanNarrans (#40) pointed out:
Thus far the answers all seem to rely on the assumption of theism. I suspect that Hitchens would not consider actions, such as prayer or last rites, toward what he considers to be a non-existent entity to qualify as either ethical or unethical.
In a similar vein, Tyke (#31) wrote:
Hitchens rejects praying for his soul as an ethical act. He doesn’t want anyone praying for his soul anyway — he thinks it’s a waste of time, and thus there is nothing ethical about it, especially if it is being done against his expressed wishes.
That's true, but in issuing Christopher's challenge, I didn't stipulate "an ethical action directed at Christopher Hitchens that he would appreciate." I simply stipulated: "an ethical action directed at Christopher Hitchens." Obviously, if there are higher-level ethical actions that believers can perform and that non-believers cannot, and if believers point this fact out to non-believers, then the latter will question the ethical character of these actions. They would do that, wouldn't they? If they didn't, they'd be implicitly conceding that the actions in question were ethical, which would be tantamount to conceding that religious people can do good things that non-believers cannot. With that kind of concession, you wouldn't last long as a skeptic. If, on the other hand, you let the non-believer define which acts count as "good," then of course the believer cannot meet Christopher's challenge. I'm sure Christopher Hitchens doesn't want me to pray for him. But even if that's true, I say: so what? Let's take the case of the son in Collin's moving story (#43). Initially, he may have bitterly resented the efforts of his father to get him to change his ways, but that does not in any way detract from the merit of his father's actions. If anything, it adds to it: the father persevered in the face of his son's indifference, and he never gave up. Lastly, why is trying to save someone's soul a particularly noble endeavor? Because human beings don't just live in the present moment, or even in the present age. Human beings are capable of knowing that they have a Creator who transcends space and time. Thus humans, too, have a transcendental aspect of their being. The best favor you can possibly do someone is to help them sort out that aspect of their being, before they die. After all, eternity is a one-way trip. Allen MacNeill, I'll answer your interesting posts in a few hours, after I catch forty winks.vjtorley
April 19, 2010
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Is it a moral act to stop being an addict or an alcoholic? There are many people who have recovered from addiction by relying on teh 12-step programs which are religiously based. Many of them would agree that they would still be addicted without the help of their "Higher Power."Collin
April 19, 2010
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This is easy: “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind." Matthew 22:37 (HCSB) If a unbeliever were to state it the it would be lie. Lying is unethical! ~BJolsonbj
April 19, 2010
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I don't know if this counts, but I think it is illuminating. A friend of my dad had a 19 year old son who was going off the deep end. Into drugs and petty crime and risky sex. Their relationship was bad and the father felt like his son really mistreated him. He tried everything he could think of. Except pray. But one day he knelt and prayed for his son. He felt angry and wanted to just let his son go to hell. But as he prayed he felt different. A thought came into his mind that he should write letters to his son. His son wouldn't talk to him anymore, but the father knew his address. So each week for about a year he wrote his son a letter, telling him that he loves him and that he hopes his son would come back. His son did come back and told his father that he believes that those letters saved his life. I believe that the father's letters would not have happened without his praying for his son.Collin
April 19, 2010
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It suddenly occurred to me that, especially in some faiths, only a believer (but not just any believer) can administer sacraments. A highly ethical action with highly ethical intent.
Again, Hitchens would reject it as an ethical act since it would be a meaningless one in the absence of a deity listening in on it. But it's not as though non-believers never administer sacraments anyway--I am sure there are thousands of religious leaders who do so every week, having lost their faith but are either too afraid or too ashamed to admit it. Is the sacrament of less value just because unknown to the receiver, a doubter is administering it to them? The receiver is still accepting it in faith as much as the always do. You could even argue that the non-believer's motives for continuing to administer the sacraments to their unsuspecting flock as ethical since it they would be continuing to look first to the needs of their congregants--perhaps while preparing the way for a successor to take over.tyke
April 19, 2010
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Last comment to show why the question isn't fairly expressed. All one needs is one positive action from an unbeliever to invalidate the argument that an atheist can't do it. Lets say prayer! Suppose an atheist, sincerely worried about the plight of a daughter or loved one, prays, "If there is a God, please, please let nothing bad happen." Who is to say that God can't answer that prayer? And who is to say that the prayer was not sincere. I know the bible says that one must "believe that He is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him." But suppose God dropped that requirement given the circumstances!jacobpressures
April 19, 2010
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Christians are called or taught to respond to a HIGHER CALLING, HIGHER PRINCIPLES. They are taught to keep these principles mindful and to act on them. Atheism has no such predisposition to motivate their actions. When you aim high, you get better results. When you aim low, you get not so high results!jacobpressures
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