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Claimed link between creationism and “conspiracism”

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All Seeing Eye, Dollar, Conspiracy Theory, Illuminati At Current Biology:

Teleological thinking — the attribution of purpose and a final cause to natural events and entities — has long been identified as a cognitive hindrance to the acceptance of evolution, yet its association to beliefs other than creationism has not been investigated. Here, we show that conspiracism — the proneness to explain socio-historical events in terms of secret and malevolent conspiracies — is also associated to a teleological bias. Across three correlational studies (N > 2000), we found robust evidence of a teleological link between conspiracism and creationism, which was partly independent from religion, politics, age, education, agency detection, analytical thinking and perception of randomness. As a resilient ‘default’ component of early cognition, teleological thinking is thus associated with creationist as well as conspiracist beliefs, which both entail the distant and hidden involvement of a purposeful and final cause to explain complex worldly events. (open access) Pascal Wagner-Egger, Sylvain Delouvée, Nicolas Gauvrit, Sebastian Dieguez, “Creationism and conspiracism share a common teleological bias” at Current Biology , Volume 28, Issue 16, Pr867-r868, August 20, 2018 DOI:https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2018.06.072

Wow. These authors must feel quite threatened. They are really reaching. Their two topics cannot even be equated as concepts: Creationism is a position on a specific subject (origin of life and the universe); conspiracism, which is more commonly called “conspiracy thinking,” is a tendency of thought (it’s all a Big Plot, you see…) which may be applied to any position on any subject.

And, of course, the perception of a plan or a pattern behind events (“teleological thinking”) is not, in isolation, evidence of creationism or conspiracy thinking, though it would be a necessary component of both. It would also be a necessary component of a marketing strategy or a blueprint.

Maybe the authors assume, naively, that their own worldview is simply a neutral, non-biased, non-limited view of the facts. But everyone thinks that about their own worldview. People sheltered by an enforced consensus can afford to assume that their assumption is simply true, hence this kind of stuff gets written and published on a regular basis.

But why do they feel so threatened?

See also: At New York Times: Darwin skeptic Carl Woese “effectively founded a new branch of science” In fairness, many of us DID sense that the people splintering lecterns in favor of Darwin’s Tree of Life were more certain than the facts would turn out to warrant. Every so often, a new poll would announce, to general hand-wringing, that much of the public doesn’t “believe in” evolution. Most of us didn’t fight with anybody about it, we just waited… A world where horizontal gene transfer is a “thing,” (and epigenetics and convergent evolution as well) actually makes a lot more sense from experience than the “selfish gene” world.

and

Sociologist: How ID foxes can beat Darwinian lions

Comments
As the following video clearly shows, atheists have to mentally work suppressing their “knee jerk” design inference!
Is Atheism a Delusion? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ii-bsrHB0o
As the preceding video clearly highlighted, it is not that Atheists do not see purpose and/or Design in nature, it is that Atheists, for whatever severely misguided reason, live in denial of the purpose and/or Design that they themselves see in nature. And yes, Denialism is a mental illness:
Denialism In the psychology of human behavior, denialism is a person's choice to deny reality, as a way to avoid a psychologically uncomfortable truth.[1] Denialism is an essentially irrational action that withholds the validation of a historical experience or event, when a person refuses to accept an empirically verifiable reality.[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denialism
Perhaps the two most famous quotes of atheists suppressing their innate 'design inference' are the following two quotes:
"Yet the living results of natural selection overwhelmingly impress us with the appearance of design as if by a master watchmaker, impress us with the illusion of design and planning." Richard Dawkins - "The Blind Watchmaker" - 1986 - page 21 "Biologists must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed, but rather evolved." Francis Crick - What Mad Pursuit
First off, contrary to what Dawkins stated, natural selection certainly does NOT explain the "appearance of design"
“Darwinism provided an explanation for the appearance of design, and argued that there is no Designer — or, if you will, the designer is natural selection. If that’s out of the way — if that (natural selection) just does not explain the evidence — then the flip side of that is, well, things appear designed because they are designed.” Richard Sternberg – Living Waters documentary Whale Evolution vs. Population Genetics – Richard Sternberg and Paul Nelson – (excerpt from Living Waters video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0csd3M4bc0Q
Secondly, when just looking at a cross section of DNA, even before getting into the astonishing multiple overlapping coding within DNA, it is easy to see why Crick stated that "Biologists must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed, but rather evolved."
Cross Section of DNA - google search https://www.google.com/search?q=cross+section+dna&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwi4uLGe_ILdAhVI7qwKHXBPCncQ_AUICigB&biw=1600&bih=782#imgrc=_
Thus in conclusion, the Christian is well justified in trusting his intuition that the world is Designed. And the Atheists is found to be artificially, and without empirical warrant, suppressing that same intuition in Design. As molecular biologist Doug Axe stated in his book "Undeniable: How Biology Confirms Our Intuition That Life Is Designed", “Our intuition was right all along.”
"Our intuition was right all along." https://www.amazon.com/Undeniable-Biology-Confirms-Intuition-Designed/dp/0062349597
Verse:
Romans 1:19-20 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
bornagain77
August 23, 2018
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To drive the "it is detrimental to believe in atheism" point firmly home, Atheists are found to, on average, die significantly younger than people who believe in God.
Atheism and health A meta-analysis of all studies, both published and unpublished, relating to religious involvement and longevity was carried out in 2000. Forty-two studies were included, involving some 126,000 subjects. Active religious involvement increased the chance of living longer by some 29%, and participation in public religious practices, such as church attendance, increased the chance of living longer by 43%.[4][5] http://www.conservapedia.com/Atheism_and_health Can attending church really help you live longer? This study says yes - June 1, 2017 Excerpt: Specifically, the study says those middle-aged adults who go to church, synagogues, mosques or other houses of worship reduce their mortality risk by 55%. The Plos One journal published the "Church Attendance, Allostatic Load and Mortality in Middle Aged Adults" study May 16. "For those who did not attend church at all, they were twice as likely to die prematurely than those who did who attended church at some point over the last year," Bruce said. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/06/02/can-attending-church-really-help-you-live-longer-study-says-yes/364375001/ Study: Religiously affiliated people lived religiously affiliated lived “9.45 and 5.64 years longer…” July 1, 2018 Excerpt: Self-reported religious service attendance has been linked with longevity. However, previous work has largely relied on self-report data and volunteer samples. Here, mention of a religious affiliation in obituaries was analyzed as an alternative measure of religiosity. In two samples (N = 505 from Des Moines, IA, and N = 1,096 from 42 U.S. cities), the religiously affiliated lived 9.45 and 5.64 years longer, respectively, than the nonreligiously affiliated. Additionally, social integration and volunteerism partially mediated the religion–longevity relation. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/study-religiously-affiliated-people-lived-religiously-affiliated-lived-9-45-and-5-64-years-longer/ Can Religion Extend Your Life? - By Chuck Dinerstein — June 16, 2018 Excerpt: The researcher's regression analysis suggested that the effect of volunteering and participation accounted for 20% or 1 year of the impact, while religious affiliation accounted for the remaining four years or 80%. https://www.acsh.org/news/2018/06/16/can-religion-extend-your-life-13092
Moreover, as was referenced in the "Creationism and conspiracism" paper, people have a natural tendency, from childhood, to see the world as being designed:
Children are born believers in God, academic claims - 24 Nov 2008 Excerpt: "Dr Justin Barrett, a senior researcher at the University of Oxford's Centre for Anthropology and Mind, claims that young people have a predisposition to believe in a supreme being because they assume that everything in the world was created with a purpose." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/3512686/Children-are-born-believers-in-God-academic-claims.html Predisposed to believe - July 2011 Excerpt: Science Daily reports “A three-year international research project, directed by two academics at the University of Oxford, finds that humans have natural tendencies to believe in gods and an afterlife.” As my friend added, “This research was quite costly – they could have saved money by reading the Bible!” https://uncommondescent.com/creationism/predisposed-to-believe/
Even Professional Scientists and Atheists themselves have a 'knee jerk' reaction to "See Purpose in Nature", i.e. to believe in God:
Design Thinking Is Hardwired in the Human Brain. How Come? - October 17, 2012 Excerpt: "Even Professional Scientists Are Compelled to See Purpose in Nature, Psychologists Find." The article describes a test by Boston University's psychology department, in which researchers found that "despite years of scientific training, even professional chemists, geologists, and physicists from major universities such as Harvard, MIT, and Yale cannot escape a deep-seated belief that natural phenomena exist for a purpose" ,,, Most interesting, though, are the questions begged by this research. One is whether it is even possible to purge teleology from explanation. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/design_thinking065381.html Richard Dawkins take heed: Even atheists instinctively believe in a creator says study - Mary Papenfuss - June 12, 2015 Excerpt: Three studies at Boston University found that even among atheists, the "knee jerk" reaction to natural phenomenon is the belief that they're purposefully designed by some intelligence, according to a report on the research in Cognition entitled the "Divided Mind of a disbeliever." The findings "suggest that there is a deeply rooted natural tendency to view nature as designed," writes a research team led by Elisa Järnefelt of Newman University. They also provide evidence that, in the researchers' words, "religious non-belief is cognitively effortful." Researchers attempted to plug into the automatic or "default" human brain by showing subjects images of natural landscapes and things made by human beings, then requiring lightning-fast responses to the question on whether "any being purposefully made the thing in the picture," notes Pacific-Standard. "Religious participants' baseline tendency to endorse nature as purposefully created was higher" than that of atheists, the study found. But non-religious participants "increasingly defaulted to understanding natural phenomena as purposefully made" when "they did not have time to censor their thinking," wrote the researchers. The results suggest that "the tendency to construe both living and non-living nature as intentionally made derives from automatic cognitive processes, not just practised explicit beliefs," the report concluded. The results were similar even among subjects from Finland, where atheism is not a controversial issue as it can be in the US. "Design-based intuitions run deep," the researchers conclude, "persisting even in those with no explicit religious commitment and, indeed, even among those with an active aversion to them." http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/richard-dawkins-take-heed-even-atheists-instinctively-believe-creator-says-study-1505712
bornagain77
August 23, 2018
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Basically the "Creationism and conspiracism" paper in the OP is claiming that people who believe in God, i.e. "creationists", are more prone to believe in conspiracies and are therefore more mentally ill, on average, than atheists. Yet when one looks at the actual empirical evidence, (instead of looking at statistical studies in which the p values derived in those studies are notoriously prone to reflecting the researchers' personal and apriori bias rather than reflecting the actual truth about reality)
Scientific method: Statistical errors - P values, the 'gold standard' of statistical validity, are not as reliable as many scientists assume. - Regina Nuzzo - 12 February 2014 Excerpt: “P values are not doing their job, because they can't,” says Stephen Ziliak, an economist at Roosevelt University in Chicago, Illinois, and a frequent critic of the way statistics are used.,,, “Change your statistical philosophy and all of a sudden different things become important,” says Steven Goodman, a physician and statistician at Stanford. “Then 'laws' handed down from God are no longer handed down from God. They're actually handed down to us by ourselves, through the methodology we adopt.”,, One researcher suggested rechristening the methodology “statistical hypothesis inference testing”3, presumably for the acronym it would yield.,, The irony is that when UK statistician Ronald Fisher introduced the P value in the 1920s, he did not mean it to be a definitive test. He intended it simply as an informal way to judge whether evidence was significant in the old-fashioned sense: worthy of a second look. The idea was to run an experiment, then see if the results were consistent with what random chance might produce.,,, Neyman called some of Fisher's work mathematically “worse than useless”,,, “The P value was never meant to be used the way it's used today,” says Goodman.,,, The more implausible the hypothesis — telepathy, aliens, homeopathy — the greater the chance that an exciting finding is a false alarm, no matter what the P value is.,,, “It is almost impossible to drag authors away from their p-values, and the more zeroes after the decimal point, the harder people cling to them”11,, http://www.nature.com/news/scientific-method-statistical-errors-1.14700?WT.ec_id=NATURE-20140213 A Litany of Problems With p-values - February 5, 2017 Excerpt: In my opinion, null hypothesis testing and p-values have done significant harm to science. The purpose of this note is to catalog the many problems caused by p-values. As readers post new problems in their comments, more will be incorporated into the list, so this is a work in progress. The American Statistical Association has done a great service by issuing its Statement on Statistical Significance and P-values. Now it's time to act. To create the needed motivation to change, we need to fully describe the depth of the problem.,,, http://www.fharrell.com/2017/02/a-litany-of-problems-with-p-values.html
Yet when one looks at the actual empirical evidence, one finds a very different conclusion for mental illness than the conclusion the researchers are trying to put forth in their present "Creationism and conspiracism" paper. Namely when one looks at the actual empirical evidence, instead of looking at 'statistics', one finds that the shoe for supposed mental illness is squarely on the other foot. For instance, as to the susceptibility to believe in weird things, i.e. to believe in "conspiracies", we find that,
Look Who's Irrational Now - 2008 Excerpt: "What Americans Really Believe," a comprehensive new study released by Baylor University yesterday, shows that traditional Christian religion greatly decreases belief in everything from the efficacy of palm readers to the usefulness of astrology. It also shows that the irreligious and the members of more liberal Protestant denominations, far from being resistant to superstition, tend to be much more likely to believe in the paranormal and in pseudoscience than evangelical Christians. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122178219865054585.html Don’t Believe in God? Maybe You’ll Try U.F.O.s By CLAY ROUTLEDGE JULY 21, 2017 Excerpt: People who do not frequently attend church are twice as likely to believe in ghosts as those who are regular churchgoers. The less religious people are, the more likely they are to endorse empirically unsupported ideas about U.F.O.s, intelligent aliens monitoring the lives of humans and related conspiracies about a government cover-up of these phenomena. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/21/opinion/sunday/dont-believe-in-god-maybe-youll-try-ufos.html
But the detrimental effects of Atheism go much further than just believing in weird, but relatively harmless, "conspiracies". The detrimental effects of Atheism are found to have pronounced detrimental effects on both our mental and physical well being:
“I maintain that whatever else faith may be, it cannot be a delusion. The advantageous effect of religious belief and spirituality on mental and physical health is one of the best-kept secrets in psychiatry and medicine generally. If the findings of the huge volume of research on this topic had gone in the opposite direction and it had been found that religion damages your mental health, it would have been front-page news in every newspaper in the land.” - Professor Andrew Sims former President of the Royal College of Psychiatrists - Is Faith Delusion?: Why religion is good for your health - preface https://books.google.com/books?id=PREdCgAAQBAJ&pg=PR11#v=onepage&q&f=false “In the majority of studies, religious involvement is correlated with well-being, happiness and life satisfaction; hope and optimism; purpose and meaning in life; higher self-esteem; better adaptation to bereavement; greater social support and less loneliness; lower rates of depression and faster recovery from depression; lower rates of suicide and fewer positive attitudes towards suicide; less anxiety; less psychosis and fewer psychotic tendencies; lower rates of alcohol and drug use and abuse; less delinquency and criminal activity; greater marital stability and satisfaction… We concluded that for the vast majority of people the apparent benefits of devout belief and practice probably outweigh the risks.” - Professor Andrew Sims former President of the Royal College of Psychiatrists - Is Faith Delusion?: Why religion is good for your health – page 100 https://books.google.com/books?id=PREdCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA100#v=onepage&q&f=false Research on religion and serious mental illness Harold G. Koenig David B. Larson Andrew J. Weaver - 27 February 2006 According to this review, religion plays a largely positive role in mental health; future research on severe mental disorders should include religious factors more directly https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/yd.23319988010
Apparently, the depressing effects inherent within the Nihilism of Atheism,,,
"If atheism is true, it is far from being good news. Learning that we’re alone in the universe, that no one hears or answers our prayers, that humanity is entirely the product of random events, that we have no more intrinsic dignity than non-human and even non-animate clumps of matter, that we face certain annihilation in death, that our sufferings are ultimately pointless, that our lives and loves do not at all matter in a larger sense, that those who commit horrific evils and elude human punishment get away with their crimes scot free — all of this (and much more) is utterly tragic." ~Damon Linker - 'Must Atheists Be Nihilists?'
,,,, Apparently, the depressing effects inherent within the Nihilism of their Atheism are far more pronounced than Atheists have ever realized and/or are ever willing to admit to in public. Fortunately, contrary to what Atheists may believe, modern science overwhelming confirms that our lives are not completely worthless but that our lives do indeed have intrinsic meaning, value, purpose and dignity.
Atheistic Materialism vs Meaning, Value, and Purpose in Our Lives – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqUxBSbFhog
bornagain77
August 23, 2018
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ET, censors always think they are right, that is how they resolve cognitive dissonance. Also, note how if you make a crooked yardstick your standard for straight, upright and accurate, then what is really those things will never pass the test of conformity to crookedness. It takes willingness to accept the verdict of a plumb line to get out of that one, and believe you me many will not listen until they are in such pain and despair at the foot of a cliff that you do not want to go there. 38 years later many are in denial in my native land. 23 years later, same here -- even after they were warned about the risks being run in advance, in public on videotape. I almost forget, two weeks after giving that warning, there was the Minister of Govt on radio denouncing the neurotic with visions of disaster -- JDK does not realise he is right on cue. The ones in denial often hate those who were right. And of course, agit prop cannon fodder never dream that they are being led to the slaughter, from behind as much as from in front. I could go on, but enough has been said for those with eyes to see and ears to hear backed by hearts inclined to understand. KFkairosfocus
August 22, 2018
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They don't see it as censorship. They see it as saving people from having to read about a failed religious philosophy. They are truly a hypocritical and sad lot.ET
August 22, 2018
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PS: Once you cross the censorship threshold, you are undermining prime rights and the deadly juggernaut has been set rolling. I wonder if most of those caught up in the agit prop hysterias realise the hellfire that has been set a-blazing.kairosfocus
August 22, 2018
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How Jack and Bob view the imposition of materialistic scienceET
August 22, 2018
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JDK, the documentation is there, just read it with an eye to the classic agit prop tactic of turnabout accusation manifesting projection and the Alinsky tactic of they are the devils. Don't forget I cut my eye-teeth dealing with communists, and living through a mini civil war. (Which, they are now beginning to admit was a civil war. While it was going on, that language was utterly off the table.) The issues on the table are truly sobering but many are in denial -- as were ever so many when Stalin's purges, show trials and deliberate starvation of the Ukraine were in full swing. KFkairosfocus
August 22, 2018
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Jack, it is all true. Your version of science is total dogma, which is the antithesis of scienceET
August 22, 2018
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Kf writes, in 48
it is clear that the sort of enabling of bigotry feeding censorship and what lies beyond it that is exposed above is sobering and is being studiously ignored to the point of enabling.
in 50,
JDK, enabling then. KF
in 52,
that is a betrayal of our civilisation, and the things now in play compound it into a hellishly explosive mix.
Pretty serious allegations, kf. However, I long ago learned to not take your apocalyptic, hyperbolic, paranoid pronouncements seriously.jdk
August 22, 2018
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ET, the contentions surrounding climate trends and YouTube's posting of loaded, one-sided warning labels speaks. The shadow-censorship games [93 - 99+% lockdowns on traffic through destructive algorithms), de-platforming and slanders speak. Even the proposals to strip people of their degrees and the career busting we have seen. Where, science and linked technologies are among the most important tools to improve the lot of ordinary people. But then some of the radicals out there want a die-off of up to 90% of the population as they view humanity as a plague on the earth. I think instead this century should be the fusion power century that then makes the deserts bloom like a rose through desalination, and turns water into the key energy resource (deuterium). Beyond, solar system colonisation, e.g. by fusion drive rockets tthat can put us on gas giant moons in 2 1/2 months. The opportunities that are being locked out boggle the mind. KFkairosfocus
August 22, 2018
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Yes, it is a huge betrayal of our civilization. The only reason no one is doing anything about it is people just don't know what is going on. Or maybe they do and that is why the trust in scientists is very low.ET
August 22, 2018
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PPS: What UD's news exposed above just shows that these same tactics and strategies are being extended to science. Climate trends and the design issue are obvious cases in point but there are many others. And of course once science is in play science education and general education are also in play. PPPS: We need to realise that Plato's parable of the mutinous ship of state is a WARNING, not an instruction manual.kairosfocus
August 22, 2018
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ET, that is a betrayal of our civilisation, and the things now in play compound it into a hellishly explosive mix. KF PS: Observe here on in another thread, on a smoking gun document on the collusive censorship that abuses monopoly and cartel power: https://uncommondescent.com/free-speech/the-id-issue-vs-digital-empire-cartel-concerns-information-utilities-superhighway-vs-shadow-censoring-de-platforming-information-gatekeepers/#comment-663293 The doc is 45 MB, but is worth the download, here: http://www.matrixfiles.com/DavidBrock/Full-David-Brock-Confidential-Memo-On-Fighting-Trump.pdf get it and hold it, do an OCR so you can quote it. See the Gateway Pundit expose here, which gives some key graphics: https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/08/top-democrat-activist-organizations-admitted-to-working-with-facebook-and-twitter-to-eliminate-conservative-content/ The doc was mentioned months ago but the big difference is, we now have clear on the ground events that connect dots. And it's not just politics, Christians are being targettede for shadow-censorship. The private firm argument being used is hellish and needs to be countered by understanding that historically abusive censorship came from non state actors too. Given network economics and the betrayal of trust that people were dealing with platforms, drastic anti-cartel actions may be needed given domination of news and views. (How people came to trust such entities beats me.)kairosfocus
August 22, 2018
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jdk doesn't have any concerns over what was said in the OP because he isn't interested in reality, either. He has no idea how to test the claims made by the non-telic position and yet he is sure there isn't any scientific evidence for teleology.ET
August 22, 2018
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JDK, enabling then. KFkairosfocus
August 22, 2018
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kairosfocus- The only reason why ” teleological thinking has long been banned from scientific reasoning.” is because the dogma of materialism has taken over science. Science is no longer the search for reality, ie the truth to our existence. Science is now just a wet noodle of its former self.ET
August 22, 2018
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ET (& BA77): it is clear that the sort of enabling of bigotry feeding censorship and what lies beyond it that is exposed above is sobering and is being studiously ignored to the point of enabling. Let us now focus the first premise of that awful paper, " teleological thinking has long been banned from scientific reasoning." This is an ideological imposition on science, viewed as applied inductive logic. Once there is an observation that designing, purposeful agents, meaning, goal-directed systems and artifacts exist, it is at least possible that such can be found as a causal factor in the world of life and in the physics of the cosmos. Such is routinely identified in forensics and archaeology. So, to rule this out ahead of time is to beg huge questions and to rob science of its power as an unfettered pursuit of truth based on empirical evidence. That is already betrayal of our civilisation by agenda-driven ideologues. Compound that with the projection that those who resist such a betrayal are childish, delusional and anti-science and you see bigotry and intent to subvert institutions so that they cannot be reformed once the ideologues hold power. Multiply by the appeal to consensus tactic used to further lock out reform, and the betrayal is compounded. Mix in the sort of censorship and collusion to exploit network economics and dominant power that backs the censorship. That crosses the line and steps down a road that ends in show trials, murderous chekists and gulags. Such is an opening act of, frankly civil war, as if you lock out prime freedoms and subvert institutional power to lock in oppression, you corner people who value liberty and force them to fight. Of course, some hope to set it up to make it seem like the cornered who fight back are in the wrong so that the mushy middle will not see what is going on until it is too late. Right now, we are seeing lawfare, abuse of institutional power and riotous antifa mobs. The only hope to avert kinetic conflict is to break the censorship and expose the agenda now. But, that is already going to be very hard to do and not long from now it may be impossible. Worse, nukes may go on the loose. We are playing with fire and refuse to recognise the hellish conflagration that may burn up our civilisation. And of course, those who refuse to attend to the grim signs of our time will mock, deride and dismiss. They don't see what they are enabling. We need to stop the demonic madness of a suicidal march of folly for our civilisation now. KFkairosfocus
August 22, 2018
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Yes to your first question, and no, I don't have the same concerns you do, to your second.jdk
August 22, 2018
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JDK, are you aware of what is the focal issue on the table from the OP, and why it is soberingly important? KFkairosfocus
August 22, 2018
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jdk:
One can not be a materialist and also believe that teleological explanations are not supported within the framework of science.
No. The only people who say that teleological explanations are not supported within the framework of science are those wedded to materialism. I say that because teleological explanations are the only ones supported within the framework of science. You have to completely misunderstand science to not understand that. ID is the only position that makes testable claimsET
August 22, 2018
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jdk- Read the Durston paper linked to in comments 10 and the chart in 19ET
August 22, 2018
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Bob O'H:
What I’m still not seeing is a calculation of FCSO/I, or even an explanation of how the F in FCSO/I is defined in a way that makes the specification possible.
He isn't worth the time, kairosfocus. Bob O'H is the vulgarity here. How many times are you going to explain things to people before you realize that they just don't care and are just poking you? Just sayin'...ET
August 22, 2018
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kf writes,
BO’H, just to indulge you one last time, you have had two linked derivations with one providing a table of resulting values, and an in-thread calculation based on standard information approaches.
To save me reading through all this thread, and perhaps parsing some difficult syntax, could you point specifically to the links or comments in which these occurred?jdk
August 22, 2018
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BO'H, just to indulge you one last time, you have had two linked derivations with one providing a table of resulting values, and an in-thread calculation based on standard information approaches. Functional specificity is observed, and the point where variation in config breaks down function shows shoreline; that's an underlying factor in Durston surveying protein alignment across world of life on protein types -- what failed did not survive, in effect. I assume you know that info in bits is a log probability metric or alternatively a metric on known alternatives for string structures (as for instance Shannon provided in his 1948 paper). In the simple bit case on/off or 1/0 is one bit, a 4-state element is 2 bits and a 20 state one is 4.32 bits. I ask whether you so hotly deny hard drive, memory stick or ram or computer file bit metrics and cry fraud, which are essentially the same, this is a commonplace and can be readily taken as such. Further to this, strings are WLOG as node-ark networks can be reduced to y/n structured Q's as say we see with AutoCAD files. Such is more than enough to see that your dismissiveness manifests little more than willful obtuseness as a form of selective hyperskepticism, given what has already been put in play above and likely whenever the claimed prior case happened. Meanwhile, we duly note yet another pass at distraction from a grave matter and draw the due conclusion. KF F/N: Here again, from 6 above, which clearly blows up your little game at 3:
Main Text Although teleological thinking has long been banned from scientific reasoning, [–> banned by whom, on what grounds, when, with what sound inductive warrant, given say discovery of alphanumeric code, thus language that functions algorithmically in the heart of the living cell? Coded language and programs are inherently teleological] it persists in childhood cognition, [–> loaded subtext, implying childishness on the part of the despised, dismissed other] as well as in adult intuitions and beliefs [1 , 2]. [–> “persists” continues in force, so adults who believe that “life on Earth was purposefully created by a supernatural agent” are automatically childish and by definitional fiat antiscience] Noting similarities between creationism (the belief that life on Earth was purposefully created by a supernatural agent) and conspiracism, [–> projection, and guilt by invidious association] we sought to investigate whether teleological thinking [–> dismissed as antiscience by definition at the outset and further silently dismissed as not being possibly true, material evidence having been suppressed] could underlie and associate [–> oh, we are diagnosing your delusions, borderline lunacy] both types of beliefs.
Something is soberingly, seriously wrong here and needs to be faced, not distracted from.kairosfocus
August 22, 2018
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kf @ 39 -
You simply refuse to acknowledge that there is configuration based function in proteins (and in D/RNA), which simply has to be recognised
No, I'm happy to acknowledge that. What I'm still not seeing is a calculation of FCSO/I, or even an explanation of how the F in FCSO/I is defined in a way that makes the specification possible.Bob O'H
August 22, 2018
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BO'H: You full well know what is focal to this OP and thread as well as how grave it is, and you have consistently distracted attention from it. You simply refuse to acknowledge that there is configuration based function in proteins (and in D/RNA), which simply has to be recognised -- where functions of particular proteins are specific to the protein as is well known and we collectively know it well enough to say note differences between human insulin, pig insulin etc while recognising that they are all insulins -- indeed pig insulin was commonly used to treat human diabetics, despite differences . . . an island of function is a cluster of related configs. Durston et al use the variability and fixity at nodes in the AA chain to identify information content (and also degree of function can be addressed). Your quarrel on this point is with Crick and Watson c 1953, which says enough. Meanwhile the ideological impositions, stereotyping and scapegoating now in use to feed ideological CENSORSHIP, you studiously ignore. That speaks volumes and rings warning bells. KF F/N: To again draw us back to focus, I clip from the article addressed in the OP. Notice, this is how the main argument begins, utterly tainting the results that follow and perverting them into little more than agit prop giving a lab coat of apparent respectability to ideological dogmatism, bigotry and attacks to the despised other:
Main Text Although teleological thinking has long been banned from scientific reasoning, [–> banned by whom, on what grounds, when, with what sound inductive warrant, given say discovery of alphanumeric code, thus language that functions algorithmically in the heart of the living cell? Coded language and programs are inherently teleological] it persists in childhood cognition, [–> loaded subtext, implying childishness on the part of the despised, dismissed other] as well as in adult intuitions and beliefs [1 , 2]. [–> “persists” continues in force, so adults who believe that “life on Earth was purposefully created by a supernatural agent” are automatically childish and by definitional fiat antiscience] Noting similarities between creationism (the belief that life on Earth was purposefully created by a supernatural agent) and conspiracism, [–> projection, and guilt by invidious association] we sought to investigate whether teleological thinking [–> dismissed as antiscience by definition at the outset and further silently dismissed as not being possibly true, material evidence having been suppressed] could underlie and associate [–> oh, we are diagnosing your delusions, borderline lunacy] both types of beliefs.
We can safely draw the conclusion at this stage that there is no defence for this, so we are meeting distractions, selective hyperskepticism and more instead. PS to ET: Please, pull back from vulgarities.kairosfocus
August 22, 2018
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The protein function is an OBSERVATION, meaning we have observed it providing a function. You can actually look up proteins to see what their function is.ET
August 22, 2018
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Bob O'H:
Yes, proteins function, and different proteins have different functions. So how do you define a function so that you can calculate FCSO/I for that protein?
You couldn't be any more of an obtuse arse if you tried, Bobby.ET
August 22, 2018
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kf @ 24 -
The onward objection, oh how are protein functions defined is telling on what is increasingly clearly — this is fair comment — willful obtuseness. By definition, proteins function, function in ways dependent on specific AA sequence, folding, agglomeration and addition of support elements. The concern is not whether they function, but to what extent AAs can be mutually substituted.
Yes, proteins function, and different proteins have different functions. So how do you define a function so that you can calculate FCSO/I for that protein?Bob O'H
August 22, 2018
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