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Clown Fish, Subjectivism, and the Great Moral Gap

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As we know, subjectivists labor endlessly to convince us that their morality is on a par with the natural law. Clown Fish, for example, insists that, like objectivists, he follows rules and is governed by “oughtness.”

My moral values are very strongly held. They govern many of the things I do. I believe that others OUGHT to comply with my moral values.

He further states that, like objectivists, he believes that the state should also be governed by “oughtness.”

You (kairosfocus) really have to work on your reading comprehension. Your continuing insistence on disagreeing with me about our government by OUGHTness when I have repeatedly stated that I agree with you on our government by OUGHTness suggests that some unhealthy pathology is at work.

This is pure unadulterated sophistry. When the subjectivist claims that he is governed by “oughtness,” he really means that he is governed by *his* ought, not by *the* ought. In other words, he is not governed by oughtness at all because he is the governor of his own oughtness–a conveniently-crafted moral code that just happens to harmonize with his life style.

By contrast, the objectivist, who is governed by *the* ought, must submit to a moral code that binds him from the outside. Since he doesn’t choose that standard, its requirements are not always congenial with his inclinations and often demand a great deal of moral exertion. It requires leaving his emotional comfort zone to bridge the gap between where he is and where he ought to be. But whatever the cost, there is a definitive moral target to be aimed at, which means that moral growth, moral success, or moral failure are all real possibilities.

Objective morality operates in the arena of personal habits. The “ought” is the evaluator and the individual is the thing being evaluated. If there could be such a thing as a mid-term report card from nature, the objectivist’s grades would reflect his moral performance: During that span, he might receive a B+ for persistence, or a D- for courage, or A- for kindness, or an F for patience, and so on. The growth process is uneven. Sometimes, it means gaining ground in one virtue at the expense of losing ground in another. If the moral realist really tries to be good, (harder than it sounds) he will be shocked to find out how bad he is. It will become evident that the gap between the real and the ideal is much wider than was first believed. At that point, his moral failures have introduced him to himself and moral growth can begin.

The subjectivist, on the other hand, is not interested in knowing his true moral condition. That is why he indulges himself with the false consolation that there is really no such thing as a “good” man. Under the circumstances, he can spare himself the task of becoming one. If there are no moral virtues, then there are no moral targets to aim for—no gap to be bridged between the real and the ideal. The subjectivist is already where he needs to be, thank you very much.

His delusional and custom-made morality fits his behavior like a glove and, in his mind, releases him from the obligation of replacing bad habits with good ones, neither of which are real to him. If there is no need for moral improvement, then there is no need for moral exertion. Like the student who grades his own papers, the subjectivist can’t fail; he gets an A every time. Never mind that his perceived excellence is an illusion.

So watch out when a subjectivist claims that he is governed by “oughtness” and wants our government to operate by the same principle. Make no mistake. He doesn’t want the state to be governed by *the* ought, so that everyone, including the ruling class, will be held morally accountable. He wants the state to be the governor of its *own* ought, so that it can arrogate unto itself the power to grant any right, real or imagined, and pass any law, just or unjust, so long as it “feels” right.

Liberalism, subjectivism, and relativism inevitably lead to the loss of real moral standards and the political freedoms that depend on them. Meanwhile, the bullies in waiting wear the mask of false compassion until their moment arrives. It’s a well-established expression, but it bears repeating: Inside every liberal is a totalitarian screaming to get out. If you don’t believe it, just say hello to one of them while they are terrorizing or beating up supporters at a Donald Trump rally. Subjectivists just don’t feel that moral tension between where they are and where they ought to be.

 

Comments
CF, the real issue is, is God real, and one of the strongest lines of evidence pointing to that is precisely the cluster of ontological and moral issues surrounding our being as responsibly free, rational individuals. Your implicit assertion of atheism (e.g. sin is a theistic construct and is not real) pivots on denial of our being a part of a creation, and in fact it is the atheistical, especially evolutionary materialist scientistic, view that is lacking in foundations. For, it is inherently self referentially incoherent and irretrievably amoral, which factors work to undermine the responsible, rational freedom necessary to even have a serious discussion. I suggest for the one willing to examine worldview foundations, the 101 here on. However, we do not need to go there to see that there is a well understood core moral domain readily perceived with conscience and which serves to guide us in moral government (on pain of descent into absurdity); so much so that this domain is one of the lines of evidence we need to reckon with. KFkairosfocus
June 5, 2016
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StephenB @19
So what? The murderer does want you murdered. The robber does want you robbed. The mugger does want you mugged.
So the rest of us view the murderer, robber, etc as immoral – not to mention criminal – and we put them in prison. That’s how society works.goodusername
June 5, 2016
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My man, StephenB. Nice work!Truth Will Set You Free
June 5, 2016
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Mung@11: You're kidding, right?Truth Will Set You Free
June 5, 2016
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Clown Fish @21, I think that I have addressed all your questions about the morality of feelings in my post. It appears that you have not read it. It really isn't that long. Meanwhile, you ignored the substance of my comment @20, so I don't think it would be appropriate to reward you by responding to your comment @21.StephenB
June 5, 2016
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StephenB, did it ever occur to you that calling people sinners might just get under their skins? It doesn't bother me because I know that sin is a theistic construct and not real. However, I am sure that there are thousands of homosexuals that consider themselves to be Christians. How would you react if people were constantly telling you (either directly or clearly inferred) that they were better Christians than you? Simply because you were gay, or had an inter-racial marriage, or had an abortion, or worked in an abortion clinic, or taught sex education to children, or supported SSM? Persecution is what ISIS is doing. What is happening in the western world, for the most part, is not persecution. It is criticism of some aspects of religion.clown fish
June 5, 2016
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KairosFocus: “Of course, this is personal relativism and invites the projection: how dare YOU try to impose YOUR outdated, intolerant bigoted “Christian” morals on us.” Clown Fish
Nice persecution complex you have going there.
It is not a persecution complex. In this politically correct culture, any Christian who dares to express his faith in the public arena is branded exactly the way kairosfocus describes. I know because it has happened to me many times. The standard is to love the sinner (homosexual) and hate the sin (homosexual acts). That is exactly where I stand. The gay lobby twists this principle to mean that Christians hate the sinner, and are, therefore, bigots and haters. It is a lie. To reaffirm the point, I try to love the liar (not always easy) but I hate the lie.StephenB
June 5, 2016
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goodusername
I don’t want to be murdered, robbed, beaten, etc, and neither do others. And because of empathy, most people don’t want such things to happen to others as well.
So what? The murderer does want you murdered. The robber does want you robbed. The mugger does want you mugged.StephenB
June 5, 2016
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KairosFocus: "Of course, this is personal relativism and invites the projection: how dare YOU try to impose YOUR outdated, intolerant bigoted “Christian” morals on us." Nice persecution complex you have going there. "The problem is, that this omits the possibility of correct-able moral error and genuine progress to sound moral understanding." No it doesn't. The majority of the western world has been corrected on their previously held moral view on homosexuality. SSM would not now be legal otherwise. "Which then creates a circumstance where refusing to acknowledge well grounded moral truth — yes, assertions involving or implying ought/ought not, thence freedoms, rights & responsibilities (so also, justice) etc that accurately describe facets of reality — is grave error. " Yes, you should be commended on sticking to your opinion in spite of insurmountable evidence. That must require an incredible leap of FAITH. "An error which is then too often mislabelled progress and imposed through agit-prop and lawfare, classic cultural marxist tactics." Rules are always imposed by law. That has been the case for centuries. What were the previous laws against homosexual if not the result of agit-prop and lawfare. When the agit-prop lawfare supports your personally held beliefs, you remain silent, but when it is supporting something you disagree with it is now wrong. But I do find it extremely ironic at #13 that you complain about people attacking your character and, in so doing, attack their character.clown fish
June 5, 2016
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kairosfocus @12, Thank you!StephenB
June 5, 2016
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seversky
In what ways are “factual events or observed behaviors (is)” different from “the nature of the universe” other than being a part of that nature?
An excellent question! Circumstances under which we cannot derive the ought from the is A factual event or observed behavior (is) with no other information tells us nothing about morality (ought). Person A kills person B, for example. I cannot derive any kind of morality from that event. The fact, acting alone, does not provide enough information to judge the rightness or wrongness of the act. I need something more, such as information concerning the moral law or the inherent dignity of the human person. Circumstances under which we can derive the ought from the is If something—anything—is made for a purpose (is), then its proper use is for the sake of that purpose (ought) . So, if God designs man for a purpose and a nature for him to pursue it (is) we can conclude that man ought to act according to that purpose and nature. SB: If God doesn’t exist, then we ought not to bother with morality at all. Without purpose, there is no morality. Why bother with something that doesn’t exist?
Because rules that regulate human behavior so as to protect the interests of all makes for a society that is safer, more secure, fairer and more just?
Why should a society be safe, secure, fair, and just? Why shouldn’t a strong tyrant keep the people unsafe and insecure so that he can satisfy his lust for power?
Isn’t that in and of itself “a consummation devoutly to be wished”?
Why should those wishes be honored?StephenB
June 5, 2016
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PPS: Observe:
My moral values are very strongly held. They govern many of the things I do. I believe that others OUGHT to comply with my moral values.
Of course, this is personal relativism and invites the projection: how dare YOU try to impose YOUR outdated, intolerant bigoted "Christian" morals on us. The problem is, that this omits the possibility of correct-able moral error and genuine progress to sound moral understanding. Which then creates a circumstance where refusing to acknowledge well grounded moral truth -- yes, assertions involving or implying ought/ought not, thence freedoms, rights & responsibilities (so also, justice) etc that accurately describe facets of reality -- is grave error. An error which is then too often mislabelled progress and imposed through agit-prop and lawfare, classic cultural marxist tactics. (And each and every one of those terms can be objectively justified so the trigger word game stumbles fatally in the starting-gate.) Where, the core argument is not religion but philosophy, at world-root level . . . as Paul, Hooker and Locke are at pains to point out: in a world in which we imply that we are responsibly and rationally free by participating in discussion, it is patent that there will be principles of logical, epistemological and moral warrant. Thus, particularly, manifestly evident core principles of the natural moral law evident to a responsible, reasonably mature person. (For example, as was again outlined above: and if you disagree kindly explain otherwise the urgency towards the right and the truth which is the point of beginning just above; without ending in grand delusion and/or nihilism. Label, deride and dismiss will not do.) In this context, I point to a remark I am informed comes from the angelic doctor:
"In learning we must begin with what is easier, unless necessity dictates otherwise. For sometimes in learning it is necessary to start, not with what is easier, but with that on which the knowledge of subsequent matters depends. That is why in acquiring knowledge we must begin with logic; not because it is easier than other sciences (for it involves the greatest difficulty,...), but because the other sciences depend on it inasmuch as it teaches the method of proceeding in all the sciences. And, as [Aristotle's] Metaphysics says, we must know the method of science, before science itself." [Commentary on the De Trinitate of Boethius, vi. 1. Ad.3 cf: http://www.logicmuseum.com/authors/aquinas/superboethiumq6.htm ]
Points to ponder.kairosfocus
June 5, 2016
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PS: Let us refresh our memories on self evident moral truths as has been repeatedly brought to attention for several weeks now in reply to 07's challenge:
>> normally responsive people will at least grudgingly respect the following summary of core, conscience attested morality from the pen of Paul:
Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them . . . . Rom 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong [NIV, "harm"] to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. [ESV]
Where, John Locke, in grounding modern liberty and what would become democratic self-government of a free people premised on upholding the civil peace of justice, in Ch 2 Sec. 5 of his second treatise on civil Government [c. 1690] cites "the judicious [Anglican canon, Richard] Hooker" from his classic Ecclesiastical Polity of 1594 on, as he explains how the principles of neighbour-love are inscribed in our hearts, becoming evident to the eye of common good sense and reasonableness:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8 and alluding to Justinian's synthesis of Roman Law in Corpus Juris Civilis that also brings these same thoughts to bear:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80, cf. here. Emphasis added.]
We may elaborate on Paul, Locke, Hooker and Aristotle, laying out several manifestly evident and historically widely acknowledged core moral principles for which the attempted denial is instantly and patently absurd for most people -- that is, they are arguably self-evident (thus, warranted and objective) moral truths; not just optional opinions. So also, it is not only possible to
(a) be in demonstrable moral error, but also (b) there is hope that such moral errors can be corrected by appealing to manifestly sound core principles of the natural moral law.
For instance: 1] The first self evident moral truth is that we are inescapably under the government of ought.
(This is manifest in even an objector's implication in the questions, challenges and arguments that s/he would advance, that we are in the wrong and there is something to be avoided about that. That is, even the objector inadvertently implies that we OUGHT to do, think, aim for and say the right. Not even the hyperskeptical objector can escape this truth. Patent absurdity on attempted denial.)
2] Second self evident truth, we discern that some things are right and others are wrong by a compass-sense we term conscience which guides our thought. (Again, objectors depend on a sense of guilt/ urgency to be right not wrong on our part to give their points persuasive force. See what would be undermined should conscience be deadened or dismissed universally? Sawing off the branch on which we all must sit.) 3] Third, were this sense of conscience and linked sense that we can make responsibly free, rational decisions to be a delusion, we would at once descend into a status of grand delusion in which there is no good ground for confidence in our self-understanding. That is, we look at an infinite regress of Plato’s cave worlds: once such a principle of grand global delusion is injected, there is no firewall so the perception of level one delusion is subject to the same issue, and this level two perception too, ad infinitum; landing in patent absurdity. 4] Fourth, we are objectively under obligation of OUGHT. That is, despite any particular person’s (or group’s or august council’s or majority’s) wishes or claims to the contrary, such obligation credibly holds to moral certainty. That is, it would be irresponsible, foolish and unwise for us to act and try to live otherwise. 5] Fifth, this cumulative framework of moral government under OUGHT is the basis for the manifest core principles of the natural moral law under which we find ourselves obligated to the right the good, the true etc. Where also, patently, we struggle to live up to what we acknowledge or imply we ought to do. 6] Sixth, this means we live in a world in which being under core, generally understood principles of natural moral law is coherent and factually adequate, thus calling for a world-understanding in which OUGHT is properly grounded at root level. (Thus worldviews that can soundly meet this test are the only truly viable ones. if a worldview does not have in it a world-root level IS that can simultaneously ground OUGHT, it fails decisively.*) 7] Seventh, in light of the above, even the weakest and most voiceless of us thus has a natural right to life, liberty, the pursuit of fulfillment of one’s sense of what s/he ought to be (“happiness”). This includes the young child, the unborn and more. (We see here the concept that rights are binding moral expectations of others to provide respect in regards to us because of our inherent status as human beings, members of the community of valuable neighbours. Where also who is my neighbour was forever answered by the parable of the Good Samaritan. Likewise, there can be no right to demand of or compel my neighbour that s/he upholds me and enables me in the wrong — including under false colour of law through lawfare. To justly claim a right, one must first be in the right.) 8] Eighth, like unto the seventh, such may only be circumscribed or limited for good cause. Such as, reciprocal obligation to cherish and not harm neighbour of equal, equally valuable nature in community and in the wider world of the common brotherhood of humanity. 9] Ninth, this is the context in which it becomes self evidently wrong, wicked and evil to kidnap, sexually torture and murder a young child or the like as concrete cases in point that show that might and/or manipulation do not make ‘right,’ ‘truth,’ ‘worth,’ ‘justice,’ ‘fairness,’ ‘law’ etc. That is, anything that expresses or implies the nihilist’s credo is morally absurd. 10] Tenth, this entails that in civil society with government, justice is a principal task of legitimate government. In short, nihilistic will to power untempered by the primacy of justice is its own refutation in any type of state. Thus also, 11] Eleventh, that government is and ought to be subject to audit, reformation and if necessary replacement should it fail sufficiently badly and incorrigibly.
(NB: This is a requisite of accountability for justice, and the suggestion or implication of some views across time, that government can reasonably be unaccountable to the governed, is its own refutation, reflecting -- again -- nihilistic will to power; which is automatically absurd. This truth involves the issue that finite, fallible, morally struggling men acting as civil authorities in the face of changing times and situations as well as in the face of the tendency of power to corrupt, need to be open to remonstrance and reformation -- or if they become resistant to reasonable appeal, there must be effective means of replacement. Hence, the principle that the general election is an insitutionalised regular solemn assembly of the people for audit and reform or if needs be replacement of government gone bad. But this is by no means an endorsement of the notion that a manipulated mob bent on a march of folly has a right to do as it pleases.)
12] Twelfth, the attempt to deny or dismiss such a general framework of moral governance invariably lands in shipwreck of incoherence and absurdity. As, has been seen in outline. But that does not mean that the attempt is not going to be made, so there is a mutual obligation of frank and fair correction and restraint of evil. _________________ * F/N: After centuries of debates and assessment of alternatives per comparative difficulties, there is in fact just one serious candidate to be such a grounding IS: the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being worthy of ultimate loyalty and the reasonable responsible service of doing the good in accord with our manifestly evident nature. (And instantly, such generic ethical theism answers also to the accusation oh this is “religion”; that term being used as a dirty word — no, this is philosophy. If you doubt this, simply put forth a different candidate that meets the required criteria and passes the comparative difficulties test: _________ . Likewise, an inherently good, maximally great being will not be arbitrary or deceitful etc, that is why such is fully worthy of ultimate loyalty and the reasonable, responsible service of doing the good in accord with our manifestly evident nature. As a serious candidate necessary being, such would be eternal and embedded in the frame for a world to exist at all. Thus such a candidate is either impossible as a square circle is impossible due to mutual ruin of core characteristics, or else it is actual. For simple instance no world is possible without two-ness in it, a necessary basis for distinct identity inter alia.>> _________________ It is clear that there is no cogent relativist response to the objectivity or the grounding of moral governance. Indeed, it looks a lot like animosity motivates attempts to undermine what they do not like, while trying to manipulate then through lawfare to usurp the sword of justice and impose will to power. Long, grim history paid for in blood and tears serves as a warning, if we will heed it . . .
kairosfocus
June 5, 2016
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F/N: I think we should note the rhetorical-moral trap of so identifying with wrongful behaviours and agendas that when their wrongfulness is pointed out or corrected, we find ourselves "triggered" on grounds of being personally attacked. Still more, We must beware of the rhetoric of shooting at the messenger who bears unwelcome news, and of the turnabout rhetorical tactic of projecting blame the better to duck addressing the substantial issue. Unfortunately, it is fair comment to say that this has been a persistent problem among advocates of radical subjectivism, extreme nominalism and thoroughgoing relativism. Where, for instance, the modifiers I just used have been turned into rhetorically convenient trigger words. Radical -- from the roots, as in from the root level of worldviews. Extreme, as opposed to moderate or occasional: there are some things where there is no essential nature at stake that drives understanding of meanings so it is indeed a matter of convenient labels and conventions for such, e.g. the definition of the 7 core SI units of measurement. But when core nature, meaning and principles are at stake extreme nominalism on say marriage -- deeply connected to our nature as morally governed, responsibly free sexually differentiated creatures who require a stable, sound, committed, healthy family environment for proper nurture and growth -- opens the door to might and manipulation make 'right,' 'truth,' 'justice,' 'meaning,' 'sex' etc nihilism. Too often, enforced under false colour of law. With all sorts of onward implications for the usurpation of the state in the interests of ruthless faction agendas. Thoroughgoing, or the like, takes nominalism and subjectivism and puts them into socio-cultural or personal circumstances, so that for instance the mere fact of diversity of opinion on a subject is seen as proof that here is no objective truth about it. As has been pointed out endlessly [and as has been consistently studiously ignored], that error exists is undeniably true, and people have had diverse sometimes strongly held views that were objectively in error on any number of topics. For instance, Columbus was objectively wrong that the circumference of the world was as small as he hoped, and his critics were right. Both were ignorant of the presence of the Americas a 3-months sail away from Europe. Similarly, we are wrong today to imagine that educated people 500 years ago thought the world was flat. So, mere difference of opinion has no import for whether or no there are objective moral truths, or even self evident ones. Where in fact the evidence is, that objective and even self evident and powerful moral truths exist and are commonly known to do so. Thus, the trigger word tactic, fails. KFkairosfocus
June 5, 2016
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SB, well said. KFkairosfocus
June 5, 2016
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Mung@6: Why should they “ought not respond that way”? Because it's objectively morally wrong. Obviously.Mung
June 4, 2016
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What is this obsession with homosexuality? Jesus answered the stoning question to everyone. "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." Do you understand what that means? Then morality can't evolve from non-morality Darwinian mechanisms can only work with atoms. Morality is not made of atoms...Andre
June 4, 2016
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StephenB,
Since he doesn’t choose that standard, its requirements are not always congenial with his inclinations and often demand a great deal of moral exertion.
Interesting – do you mean that there are there moral standards that you follow that you personally don’t feel or sense are right? I’m reminded of an interview I once saw of someone who said he personally felt that there was nothing wrong with being a homosexual, but would still help stone homosexuals if given the chance because that’s what God’s laws called for (I forget what country he was from). Is that the sort of thing you’re talking about?
If God exists, then we ought to follow his morality.
Why?
If God doesn’t exist, then we ought not to bother with morality at all.
Why “ought” we not bother with morality? With or without God, I don’t want to be murdered, robbed, beaten, etc, and neither do others. And because of empathy, most people don’t want such things to happen to others as well. Given that, I can’t conceive that a system of morality wouldn’t develop.goodusername
June 4, 2016
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StephenB @ 4
However, you can certainly establish the ought from the is when the is means the nature of the universe
How can that be? Previously you wrote:
When the idea was first introduced, it meant, correctly, that you cannot establish morality (ought) from factual events or observed behaviors (is). That is correct.
In what ways are "factual events or observed behaviors (is)" different from "the nature of the universe" other than being a part of that nature?
If God exists, then we ought to follow his morality.
Why ought we to follow His morality? In what ways are His views any less subjective than our own?
If God doesn’t exist, then we ought not to bother with morality at all. Why bother with something that doesn’t exist?
Because rules that regulate human behavior so as to protect the interests of all makes for a society that is safer, more secure, fairer and more just? Isn't that in and of itself "a consummation devoutly to be wished"?Seversky
June 4, 2016
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Mung@6: Why should they "ought not respond that way"?Truth Will Set You Free
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StephenB, thank you for responding without resorting to personal attack, as others do. I take that as a sign of the weakness of their argument. Right. They ought not respond that way.Mung
June 4, 2016
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StephenB, thank you for responding without resorting to personal attack, as others do. I take that as a sign of the weakness of their argument. But, I think that we both agree, the IS/OUGHT concept is of little help in resolving the issue. "No. He is being affected by *the* ought, but he is not being governed by it." Fair enough. I would agree. But the same would apply if morality was subjective. We would be affected by it (sometimes very strongly) but we could decide to not follow it. "However, you can certainly establish the ought from the is when the is means the nature of the universe" Again I agree. " If God exists, then we ought to follow his morality. If God doesn’t exist, then we ought not to bother with morality at all." This is where we disagree. If you are defining morality as something that can only be defined by God, then you win by definition. But God does not appear in most definitions of morality to the same extent that it does in the definitions of "evil" and "sin". Morality can be I dependant of God. "Evidence does not speak for itself." Very true. "If you think that the evidence points to subjective morality, then you are not interpreting it in a rational way." Then feel free to enlighten me.clown fish
June 4, 2016
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Clown Fish
If objective morality exists then someone who believes that morality is subjective is, in reality, being governed by “the” ought.
No. He is being affected by *the* ought, but he is not being governed by it. He is governed by *his* ought, which defines and shapes his moral choices. He will not allow *the* ought to govern him.
This being said, the argument for objective morality by invoking the IS/OUGHT nonsense is pointless. It is nothing more than mental self-gratification.
Very few people understand the Is/ought argument, which is why I seldom discuss it. When the idea was first introduced, it meant, correctly, that you cannot establish morality (ought) from factual events or observed behaviors (is). That is correct. However, you can certainly establish the ought from the is when the is means the nature of the universe. If God exists, then we ought to follow his morality. If God doesn’t exist, then we ought not to bother with morality at all. Why bother with something that doesn't exist? In that sense, we can establish the ought from the is.
That is why I prefer to follow the evidence. I like self-gratification as much as the next man, put it serves no purpose other than to make you feel good.
Evidence does not speak for itself. It must be followed and interpreted in a rational way. If you think that the evidence points to subjective morality, then you are not interpreting it in a rational way.StephenB
June 4, 2016
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There are only two possible realities: There is only one reality. Good Exists.Mung
June 4, 2016
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The lengths people will go to, to deny objective moral values. As if it really matters.Mung
June 4, 2016
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"This is pure unadulterated sophistry. When the subjectivist claims that he is governed by “oughtness,” he really means that he is governed by *his* ought, not by *the* ought. In other words, he is not governed by oughtness at all because he is the governor of his own oughtness–a conveniently-crafted moral code that just happens to harmonize with his life style." You are really missing the point. There are only two possible realities: 1 --> objective morality exists. 2 --> objective morality does not exist. Regardless of which one we personally believe, only one of these can be true. I assume that we all believe this to be true. If objective morality exists then someone who believes that morality is subjective is, in reality, being governed by "the" ought. Conversely, if objective morality does not exist, people who believe in objective morality are actually being governed by "his/her" individual ought. Again, I think that we all agree with this. In short, how we are actually governed ("the" ought or "his/her" ought) is not affected in any way by whether we believe that morals are objective or subjective. This being said, the argument for objective morality by invoking the IS/OUGHT nonsense is pointless. It is nothing more than mental self-gratification. That is why I prefer to follow the evidence. I like self-gratification as much as the next man, put it serves no purpose other than to make you feel good.clown fish
June 4, 2016
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