Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Co-option, Berra’s Blunder, and Speculation Presented as Fact

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In Bill Dembski’s thread, No Major Conceptual Leaps, I posted a comment about the evidential, logical, and probabilistic vacuity of the Darwinian co-option hypothesis. (I use the word hypothesis with reservation. A hypothesis in a domain such as this should at least be based on a minimal, mathematical probabilistic analysis.)

In response to my comment, another commenter offered this as a refutation.

This text from Deborah A. McLennan, of Evo Edu Outreach, is utterly embarrassing for her cause, because it makes the case for design, just as Tim Berra did with his infamous blunder.

Deborah writes:

The co-option of traits to serve new functions is not a difficult concept to understand. In fact, we ourselves do it all the time, which is why we speak about “new wine in old bottles” or “rebranding” for the repackaging of ideas, and more recently in keeping with the new management-speak, “repurposing”. We are forever finding new functions for old devices, using an old boot as a planter, a fishing rod to fly a kite, a magnifying glass to start a fire, a shell as currency, a berry or a root to dye cloth. The only difference between human and evolutionary co-option is that we purposefully change an object’s function, while evolution simply takes advantage of an opportunity with no direction, purpose, or forethought.

The only verifiable examples of co-option she presents involve agency. How about just one verifiable example of co-option that does not rely on agency? In addition, note the final sentence, which is pure speculation based on an assumed premise, but presented as fact. This is not how science works.

Berra’s Blunder:

If you compare a 1953 and a 1954 Corvette, side by side, then a 1954 and a 1955 model, and so on, the descent with modification is overwhelmingly obvious. This is what paleontologists do with fossils, and the evidence is so solid and comprehensive that it cannot be denied by reasonable people…

The point is that the Corvette evolved through a selection process acting on variations that resulted in a series of transitional forms and an endpoint rather distinct from the starting point. A similar process shapes the evolution of organisms.

Tim Berra, Evolution and the Myth of Creationism, 1990, pg 117-119

This is Phillip Johnson’s observation:

Of course, every one of those Corvettes was designed by engineers. The Corvette sequence — like the sequence of Beethoven’s symphonies to the opinions of the United States Supreme Court — does not illustrate naturalistic evolution at all. It illustrates how intelligent designers will typically achieve their purposes by adding variations to a basic design plan. Above all, such sequences have no tendency whatever to support the claim that there is no need for a creator, since blind natural forces can do the creating. On the contrary, they show that what biologists present as proof of “evolution” or “common ancestry” is just as likely to be evidence of common design.

Phillip Johnson, Defeating Darwinism by Opening Minds, 1997, pg 63.

It is illuminating that Darwinists, in many attempts to defend their blind-purposeless-undirected-chance-and-necessity hypothesis, draw on analogies from design and agency while trying to explain away agency and design.

It seems to me that this exercise should result in at least a modicum of cognitive dissonance.

Comments
skeech:
No, Gil, your incredulity is not my reason for thinking that co-option can happen without guidance.
Phinehas:
Is that really as high as your “science” can aim, Skeech? Whether or not something *can* happen? Aren’t you a tiny bit interested in whether or not co-option *did* happen?
Logically equivalent dialogue: skeech:
No, Gil, your incredulity is not my reason for thinking that birds can fly.
Phinehas:
Is that really as high as your “science” can aim, Skeech? Whether or not something *can* happen? Aren’t you a tiny bit interested in whether or not birds *have* flown?
skeech:
Who invited you to this party?
skeech
March 27, 2009
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Is that really as high as your "science" can aim, Skeech? Whether or not something *can* happen? Aren't you a tiny bit interested in whether or not co-option *did* happen? If you'd read the linked post by Dembski regarding "no great conceptual leap," you'd have realized that you are echoing precisely what it was meant to address. I can conceptualize cards falling in such a way that my poker opponent receives one royal flush after another purely as the result of natural forces, but you'd better believe that as early as the second one I'm going to be questioning more than whether or not such a thing *can* happen. Can't we set the bar for science just a bit higher here? Instead of thoughts on what can happen, how about evidence on what actually did happen? Is that bar too high?Phinehas
March 27, 2009
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When a Darwinist is asked how something happened they will say it evolved. When pushed for how it evolved they will say it was selected. When they really get pressured and are in trouble as to how something happened, they reach into their back side and pull out that it was exapted. But if they really get in trouble about how something happened there is the old reliable cure for all problems, it emerged. Evolutionary biology, the only science where one's imagination is evidence.jerry
March 27, 2009
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No, Gil, your incredulity is not my reason for thinking that co-option can happen without guidance.skeech
March 27, 2009
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skeech, It seems to me that you are offering an argument from incredulity that my incredulity is not credible. This logically results in believing anything -- even when evidence, logic, and probabilistic mathematical analysis weigh heavily against a speculative thesis.GilDodgen
March 27, 2009
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Gil, I read your comment when it first appeared, and I reread it just now to make sure I didn't miss anything. I don't see anything in it that identifies a fault in the logic of co-option -- just a proclamation of personal incredulity.skeech
March 27, 2009
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Gil, you wrote of the “logical vacuity” of the idea of co-option under the Darwinian paradigm. Could you explain what you find illogical about it? Click on the second link in the OP. Please read the instruction manual before calling tech support.GilDodgen
March 27, 2009
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But Skeech, meterologists have seen the molecules in the sky behaving according to the laws of physics, many times before They can test it, and they often do, and it is always behaving according to those laws. No one saw the co-option take place. They can't and don't test it. I assert that it is reasonable that the molecules are behaving according to the laws of physics, but it is unreasonable to assume that an unproven process called undirected co-option takes place merely because co-option of some kind (directed or undirected) is taking place. It is a nuanced point, and I'm trying not to say "God-did-it" but I am trying to say that undirected co-option is more an ideological assumption than proven fact.Collin
March 27, 2009
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Gil, I think there's something you're missing here. Most people use analogies as illustrations, rather than evidence. Deborah starts off by saying that co-option of traits is not difficult to understand, then points to examples of co-option that her audience is familiar with to make sure they understand the general concept. The examples are not presented as evidence for co-option in biology. That, as you know, comes from other sources, like fin/legs or jawbone/earbone fossils, etc. Because I.D.ers so often attempt to use their analogies as actual evidence, perhaps it's easy for them to be mistaken on this point.iconofid
March 27, 2009
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Collin:
Since no one saw biology do co-option, no one knows if it was done naturally or by artiface...
Since no one watched all of the molecules in the atmosphere to make sure they followed the laws of physics, we don't know if today's sunny skies over California are natural or the work of the Designer. Shame on those meteorologists for assuming that the weather is an unguided phenomenon. Gil, you wrote of the "logical vacuity" of the idea of co-option under the Darwinian paradigm. Could you explain what you find illogical about it? Phillip Johnson:
On the contrary, they show that what biologists present as proof of “evolution” or “common ancestry” is just as likely to be evidence of common design.
Johnson, like so many ID supporters and creationists, makes the mistake of thinking that common design and Darwinian common descent lead to the same pattern of distribution of features. They do not. There are many different ways of employing common design, most of which do not yield the amazingly consistent nested hierarchies, across multiple traits, that we see in nature. For some reason the Designer seems to have singled one the one method that does so, thus creating the illusion of common descent. How odd. Gil Dodgen:
It is illuminating that Darwinists, in many attempts to defend their blind-purposeless-undirected-chance-and-necessity hypothesis, draw on analogies from design and agency while trying to explain away agency and design. It seems to me that this exercise should result in at least a modicum of cognitive dissonance.
Yeah, Darwinists are like those goofy chemists who refer to 'hydrophilic' molecules -- as if a molecule could love! And yet those chemists don't feel even a modicum of cognitive dissonance.skeech
March 27, 2009
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Gil, that you edited the text after it was posted suggests that you didn't foresee skeech's comment.David Kellogg
March 27, 2009
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Galton remarked on this pitfall back in the day, didn't he? And I'll mention the Phylogenetic Tree of Mixed Drinks again.anonym
March 27, 2009
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I found it. Berra introduces the example with the sentence
Everything evolves, in the sense of "descent with modification," whether it be government policy, religion, sports cars, or organisms."
It seems to me that Berra's example of Corvettes is used to illustrate descent with modification, not naturalistic evolution. If that's what it's trying to illustrate with the example, there's no blunder at all, and Johnson is wrong. Johnson also wrongly seems to equate "common ancestry" with "evolution" in the passage. I would say that Berra's example does illustrate common ancestry. What's the blunder if it illustrates what he claimed it does?David Kellogg
March 27, 2009
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skeech, I foresaw your argument and edited the text. The only verifiable examples of co-option she offers are the result of agency. All of her biological examples are purely unsupported speculation, without any analysis concerning the variety of mutations required, the likelihood of their occurrence, the survival value of the transitional intermediates, the number of generations and individuals involved (i.e., the probabilistic resources) such that the transitional intermediates could be fixed in the population, etc. This is the kind of analysis one expects from a scientific hypothesis. Instead, we are offered an indoctrination piece in Darwinian speculation based on analogy to agent-driven design.GilDodgen
March 27, 2009
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Skeech, you have engaged in the logical fallacy called question begging. In other words, you have assumed the truth of the question we are trying to figure out. Are examples of co-option due to undirected, purposeless processes or by agency? The only things used to prove that co-option in biology must not be a result of agency, are examples that involve agency. Since no one saw biology do co-option, no one knows if it was done naturally or by artiface, so to answer the question we look to other examples of co-option, all of which seem to be a result of intelligent design.Collin
March 27, 2009
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The only examples of co-option she presents involve agency. How about just one example of co-option that does not rely on agency?
This complaint is mystifying, as McLennan's paper is chock full of examples of co-option in biology.skeech
March 27, 2009
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Gil, do you know what precisely Berra was trying to illustrate in that passage? Does anybody have the context? Is he saying that Corvettes evolved naturalistically, or is the context about evidence for common descent? Unlike you, I'm not on a first-name basis with McLennan, so I'll call her McLennan out of respect. Anyway, she is arguing by analogy. If arguments by analogy are to be forbidden, shouldn't we discard every ID argument that extends a human experience of engineering or design to natural objects?David Kellogg
March 27, 2009
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