Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Compromise?

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Dr. Sewell’s post below generated a fairly heated debate, but it is not my purpose to address the substance of his claim or his opponents’ responses.  Instead, I was fascinated by a couple of the commenters’ calls for “compromise” between the ID camp and the NDE camp. 

As a general matter, “compromise” is a very fine thing, and if there were more of it the world would doubtless be a better place.  But it seems to me that compromise does not fit in well with the quest for scientific truth.  If two mutually exclusive theories purport to explain the same data, one of them may be right and the other one wrong, or they may both be wrong, but no one suggests we should seek a “compromise” between the two theories.  Should Copernicus have compromised with Ptolemy?  What does it even mean to “compromise” between two mutually exclusive scientific theories?  Because compromise is such a fine thing should we continue to employ epicycles for certain aspects of our cosmology even though we know they are false? 

In human relations compromise is possible because there is usually a middle ground.  When I negotiate a contract, my client might agree to accept less of “X” in exchange for more of “Y” and reach an agreement that does not give him everything he wants, but which he will nevertheless sign, because it is “good enough” and accomplishes his goals. 

But science does not work that way.  Scientific conclusions rarely run along a continuum.  They are discrete functions.  Yes/No True/False  In other words, there can be no compromise between truth and error because there is no middle ground between them.  Therefore, pleas for “compromise” in the ID/NDE debate don’t make sense to me.

Comments
Jerry, That's an interesting response. I'll have to give it some thought.Semiotic 007
December 18, 2007
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BarryA,
The freezing point of water under given conditions (whatever those conditions are) is what it is. There can be no compromise on that.
The transition of matter from liquid state to solid state is not given by nature. It is a matter of human definition. You won't find earth, air, fire, or water in the periodic table of elements. Considering the proliferation of states of matter, it may well be that physicists eventually agree on a categorization that is quite different from any we can imagine now. There is no guarantee that future scientists will find the categories of solid and liquid useful. (When I was a boy, I read that stars were comprised of gas. But they later turned into plasma. Shazaam!) Even with present definitions of states of matter, to say that a volume of water has transitioned from liquid to solid is a matter of definition. Researchers must agree on what they operations they will perform and what observations they must make to say that the state transition has occurred. Different operational definitions will lead to somewhat different proclamations of the freezing point. The operational definition scientists consider best by consensus may change when new laboratory equipment comes along. The phenomenon of freezing is intimately linked to human definition and observation. Science is predicated on the existence of something "out there," but scientists are responsible for the organization and naming of their observations.Semiotic 007
December 18, 2007
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Semiotic 007, I think there are ways to look at macro evolution that can be useful for distinguishing ID from naturalistic mechanisms. Macro evolution covers a lot of ground and I am not sure there is good evidence to support all of what is called macro evolution. For example, I would not call most IC systems macro evolution since a lot of it is pre Cambrian or only showed up in the Cambrian. I tend to refer to macro evolution as that which occurred after the Cambrian. After the Cambrian there is a lot of macro evolution and it is purely speculation as to how it occurred. A lot of the debate in the popular press is how did one species arise from another species when there are substantial functional differences between them. This is the major league of macro evolution. How did insects, birds and bats get wings to fly, how did land creatures develop oxygen breathing systems or how did man get such a big brain and why such a long time for children to develop and where did consciousness come from. How did 4 chamber hearts and warm vs. cold blooded arise. How did birds develop their unique oxygen transport system. There is a lot more but this gets to the issue. There is lots of speculation but no evidence, only as series of “just so” stories. An occasional fossil is brought up to show the progression ignoring the fact that there had to be tens of thousands of other steps for these progressions of which only a handful have been found. In other words how did unique functional systems arise. There is another part of this discussion which I call macro-evolution light. This is how did a lot of the orders and families develop? For example, within Carnivora how did all the families arise? ID seldom cares about this area but evolutionary biology does. I don’t think ID would care much if someone showed how all the family canidae or felidae arose by gradualistic approaches but yet the evolutionary biologists would claim that would be a major verification of their theory. ID is mainly interested in the area of macro-evolution where new systems arose and has less of an interest in how specific families of species arose. Though there is an interesting hypothesis that could support ID that applies to this latter problem.jerry
December 18, 2007
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"Well, compromise has already been tried, and we all know how that turned out. Straddling the fence between materialist/ Darwinism and Intelligent Design, we find the ever popular, media friendly schizophrenics—the Christian/Darwinists." When I say that there should be compromise, I'm not saying that with respect to individual beliefs. I'm saying it more in the sense of tolerance despite real differences. It's perfectly fine to say that you believe that both ID and Christianity is true, and that Darwinism is a bunch of hogwash. However if ari-freedom is correct on science that we can't prove ID or Darwinism to be true, just show that one is highly probably and the other improbable, we should tolerate the existence of Atheistic Darwinists. This is what I mean by compromise. Think of it as the way different religions treat each other. Even if I might think Christianity (for example) is false and Buddhism (for example) is true, I don't go around burning down churches. (I stress that this is just an example) I might attempt to convert some Christians to my point of view, but even if they refuse, I allow them their religious freedom. In other words, what I'm advocating by compromise is that of freedom of scientific thought and research, not compromsie by some sort of mixing or hybridisation of the two theories.WinglesS
December 18, 2007
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Semiotic 007 "At what pressure, with pressure defined and measured how? And with temperature defined and measured how? (International standards are arrived at through compromise.)" Agreement on measuring standards is a human enterprise and therefore compromise can be part of it. Don't let this confuse you. A measuring standard is not the same thing as the phenomenon to be measured. The freezing point of water under given conditions (whatever those conditions are) is what it is. There can be no compromise on that. If the freezing point of water under given conditions is X, if someone says it is Y, they are wrong. They are not kind of wrong or partially wrong. They are just wrong. There can be no compromise between those who posit X and those who posit Y.BarryA
December 18, 2007
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I should remind BarryA and others that neo-Darwinism is normally used as a name for what came out of the evolutionary synthesis of the 1930's. Prior to the synthesis, geneticists and Darwinists were at loggerheads. But there emerged a strong consensus that AND, not OR, made for the best scientific explanations. If I understand correctly, some of you hold that macro-evolution is the province of ID, and that mainstream evolutionary accounts of micro-evolution are reasonable. Although I've seen the micro/macro distinction many times, I am less confident than ever that I know how users of the terms are defining them. It seems to me that the micro/macro distinction should be made at the genetic level. We all know that mutation of a single gene can cause a large difference in phenotype, so demarcation in terms of degree of change in phenotype does not seem a paying proposition to me. Speciation preceded by genetic variation on a larger scale is more problematic for mainstream theories.Semiotic 007
December 18, 2007
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stephenB let's put it the other way. if there is spirit in animals then how can there be random variation?ari-freedom
December 18, 2007
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-----Barry A, "StephenB, I am continually amazed by what some of the people to whom you refer will say. I once asked a prominent Jesuit (nationally known), if Darwinism is true how can there be an ontological discontinuity between humans and the higher animals. He said there is none. Every time I think of that exchange I shake my head in wonder." I know exactly what you mean. There was a time when the Jesuits provided the best education on the planet. In the last few decades, though, they have done a complete turn around. "Corruptio optimi pessimum est, says the proverb: 'the corruption of the best is the worst'.StephenB
December 18, 2007
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It would be like compromising on the freezing point of water.
At what pressure, with pressure defined and measured how? And with temperature defined and measured how? (International standards are arrived at through compromise.) How will repeated measurements be processed to arrive at a scalar value? (The "best" way to do this is not obvious.) BTW, the standard for a kilogram is no longer adequate for some scientific research, and there is considerable debate as to which of various competing approaches to definition is best. To elevate contemporary scientific beliefs to "truth" is essentially a religious process. (Some strains of atheism are religions.) Talk about building a house on shifting sand! Nothing beneath you can be counted on to stay put. The freezing point of water is likely to change.Semiotic 007
December 18, 2007
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-----magnan: "It would seem that even if the human animal with its marvellous body design actually evolved completely through a Darwinistic process, these animal bodies could have at some point in prehistory been “ensouled” by Spirit. In other words, when the vehicle was ready, Spirit began to experience the physical world through physical human bodies." Would materialist Darwinism permit "Spirit," a non-material entity, to complement RV+NS process? Would it not claim that “spirit” is ultimately grounded in matter and cannot be anything more than an extension of a purely materialistic process? Can the EFFECT of a materialistic process suddenly become the CAUSE of ensoulment?. Even if “Spirit”could become a cause, and therefore capable of ensouling, we have to wonder why. Did it intend to do so all along? If it did, then how can the process be "natural" or Darwinistic, which by definition, can intend nothing? It seems that there is no way out of the dichotomy: either mind (spirit) arose from matter (Darwin) , in which case it never really escaped from it {monism} or matter arose from mind (spirit), in which case spirit was independent all along {theism (dualism)}.StephenB
December 18, 2007
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BarryA (#30), this is indeed an amazing example of irrational cognitive dissonance. However, there is one concept that seems to reconcile Darwinism and spiritual/physical dualism (presumably unique in man). This of course is rejected by Christians, and of course by materialists. Both spiritual experiences and psychic/paranormal phenomena demand a model of man which has both a physical body and an immaterial entity (soul, spirit or some other conceptualization) which can communicate, sense and manipulate beyond the brain without the mediation of fields and forces known to physics, and which also can leave the body. It would seem that even if the human animal with its marvellous body design actually evolved completely through a Darwinistic process, these animal bodies could have at some point in prehistory been "ensouled" by Spirit. In other words, when the vehicle was ready, Spirit began to experience the physical world through physical human bodies.magnan
December 18, 2007
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Science doesn't deal with "proof." Some claims are shown by science to be plausible and others are shown to be extremely implausible.ari-freedom
December 18, 2007
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StephenB, I am continually amazed by what some of the people to whom you refer will say. I once asked a prominent Jesuit (nationally known), if Darwinism is true how can there be an ontological discontinuity between humans and the higher animals. He said there is none. Every time I think of that exchange I shake my head in wonder.BarryA
December 18, 2007
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wingless (#23): "I haven’t seen any decisive proof of both ID or Darwinism." You might look at Mike Gene's new book The Design Matrix - a Consilience of Clues. I am presently in it. He doesn't think that proof is a practical proposition, just a fairly high degree of certainty based on a preponderance of evidence. He derives several measurable parameters that can be estimated toward that goal.magnan
December 18, 2007
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Well, compromise has already been tried, and we all know how that turned out. Straddling the fence between materialist/ Darwinism and Intelligent Design, we find the ever popular, media friendly schizophrenics---the Christian/Darwinists. I won’t mention any names, but you all know who they are. They want their God and their Darwin too; but they want a quiet God and a loud Darwin. To believers they say, “Hey, I am a Christian.” leaving the convenient impression they believe in a purposeful, mindful creator. To the academy they say, “Don’t worry, I am first and foremost a Darwinist, so I really believe in a purposeless, mindless process that has no need of a creator. I you don’t believe me, just watch how I slander and smear the ID people.” Incredibly, the only thing they are consistent about is their double-mindedness. For them, any pair of contradictory statements can be reconciled. On the one hand, they believe God revealed himself in Scripture; on the other hand, they insist that God hid himself in nature. On the one hand, they reject design inference in principle; on the other hand, they find design inherent in the “evolutionary process.” On the one hand, they renounce the philosophy of metaphysical materialism; on the other hand, they practice it under the aegis of “methodological naturalism.” Be sure of one thing, though. If an atheist arguing for Darwin debates a Christian arguing for design, they will always go with the side that butters their bread. Not only does their duplicity betray the public trust, it retards scientific progress.. More to the point, these disingenuous hacks harm the ID movement 100 times more than Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens could ever hope to. There is just enough sugar in their confection to make young Christians swallow the poison whole and join the ranks of the anti-ID militants. Although I am a Catholic Christian myself, I do, nevertheless, find the radical atheists easier to bear. Spare me from the soul selling, split-the-difference, have-it-both-ways Christians. If they wanted to be reasonable, they would stop persecuting ID scientists in the name of religion. We ask only one thing: give us our rightful place at the table as we establish, develop, and apply the principle of design inference. Nothing more should be asked; nothing less should be expected.StephenB
December 18, 2007
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WinglesS: Perhaps you could elaborate on how you recognise specificity in the structure of the universe.
Newton stated that every object in the universe attracts every other object with a force ... inversely proportional to the square of the separation of the two objects. Why the square? Why not the cube? Or to the power 2.5? Or 2.1? Or 1.937591537? Why would the universe choose a round whole number for its law of gravity? For that matter, why would a human construct (the mathematics of inverse proportion) even apply to anything in the universe? This human construct is a specification. And the universe adheres to it. That's CSI.EndoplasmicMessenger
December 18, 2007
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I really really hate to say this but there is the possibility that most of cosmology is contrived. In other words, it's the big bang theory that may be highly fine tuned and not necessarily the big bang. But the theory will still be kept as long as there is no better *naturalistic* theory to replace it. We can recognize CSI, as Einstein did, in the laws of nature. But I'm very wary of this idea of getting something out of isolated arbitrary numbers.ari-freedom
December 18, 2007
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Materialism, as a philosophy, gives no explanation for the physical constants being what they are, that I recognise. (there are occasional appeals to some antropic priciple, multiple universe etc etc) Theism, on the other hand, doesn't give an explanation for God. I'm not saying that such an explanation is necessary, but while the fine tuned universe argument is imo a valid a form of argument for design, it in no way proves design. It is also true that the 2nd law of thermodynamics seems to imply that the universe was initially at a state of low entropy. This was a problem Issac Asimov thought of, (although he in no way solved) in his short story "The Last Question". This is, however generally a problem not of evolutionists, nor a form of proof used ID theorists because it isn't biological. I think it's a more applicable argument in the field of stellar evolution than the theory of evolution. It's an argument for the universe having a beginning. (which I heard was accused of being a Christian concept) I've also never heard of this argument used as one of CSI. It is hard to see specificity in the chaos of the universe. Perhaps you could elaborate on how you recognise specificity in the structure of the universe.WinglesS
December 18, 2007
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WinglesS, Yet theistic ID does have a concrete example of transcendent CSI abruptly appearing, whereas evolution has no example of radical transmutation ever occurring. The concrete example of CSI suddenly appearing is called the Big Bang! To deny this fact evolutionists have to vainly try to deny that a fantastic amount of CSI was present in the Big Bang, yet once again they lose here; According to the esteemed British mathematical physicist Roger Penrose (1931-present), the odds of one particular individual constant, the “original phase-space volume” constant required such precision that the “Creator’s aim must have been to an accuracy of 1 part in 10^10^123” or as said another way, "The initial entropy of the universe had to be within one part in 10^10^123!". If this number were written out in its entirety, 1 with 10^123 zeros to the right, it could not be written on a piece of paper the size of the entire visible universe, EVEN IF a number were written down on each atomic particle in the entire universe, since the universe only has 10^80 atomic particles in it. It is generally accepted that for our universe to have the extremely low entropy it now has required as the “starting point” at the big bang the selection of a virtually infinitesimally tiny volume of the total phase space of all possible universes (phase space is a complete mathematical description of any physical system). “Gain in entropy always means loss of information, and nothing more.” Gilbert N. Lewis (October 23, 1875 - March 23, 1946) was a famous American physical chemist. http://lcni.uoregon.edu/~mark/Stat_mech/thermodynamic_entropy_and_information.html Thus, The fact is proven that a tremendous amount of CSI was suddenly introduced at the Big Bangbornagain77
December 18, 2007
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While it is true that there is no compromise with the truth, I believe that both parties should reach a compromise when the truth is still not yet clear. I haven't seen any decisive proof of both ID or Darwinism. Darwinism apparently cannot be demonstrated in any lab, (or takes too long) and the lack of evidence gives rise to many many theories. (little information = a lot of freedom) However at the same time ID has trouble calculating the level of specified complexity in organisms as well as calculating whether something is irreducibly complex. (due to the lack of information and other reasons) As long as the mathematical basis of such definitions are not in place, it is easy to define something as irreducibly complex just because a mechanism for it's construction has not been found. The same of course, goes with Darwinism. Even if a naturalistic mechanism for self-organisation into living organisms does not exist, it is always easy to say it has not yet been found. Imo, it might also actually be impossible to prove ID. What if it were true that some unnamed intelligent entity was behind the creation of life. How then do you prove that? Can ID survive as a negative of Darwinism? (by demonstrating that it is impossible to natually evolve something)WinglesS
December 18, 2007
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Granville Sewell: Would you really insist, at this point in time, that our schools be required to teach ID?
I have mixed feelings about this. I am in the middle of (trying to figure out how to best) teach my 6th grade daughter about Intelligent Design. I have three reasons for this. 1) Her life sciences text book contains many references to Darwinism without any critical counter balancing. They just covered the Urey-Miller experiment, without mentioning, of course, that its premises have now been pretty well universally rejected. (See Dembski/Wells for an excellent treatment.) 2) Its a slippery slope from methodological materialism to philosophical materialism. Unless they are taught the difference at each step, they will not know the difference. To paraphrase some of our materialist friends, when you see philosophical materialism being liberally applied throughout the scientific endeavor, you must continually remind yourself that they only have the legitimate right to methodological materialism. 3) I want her to learn to think critically and independently, and be able to support an argument courteously but vigorously. She is not getting this out of her normal classroom instruction. (Go check out any Slashdot controversy, from ID vs Darwinism to vinyl vs digital and you will find very few people who can make any intelligent statement almost anything without an ad hominem attack thrown in there. This seems to be the level of "education" that most kids are getting.) 4) Too many young people are thrown in the deep waters of our pervasive cultural materialism without being taught how to swim. It is unfair to them to put them in such a lose-lose situation. So yes, I think our young people need to be taught about methodological materialism vs philosophical materialism. And the ID vs Darwinism controversy is the perfect opportunity. Perhaps this is not something for the science classroom. But I don't see it happening in any classroom. So I am going to attempt to do this at home -- but I wish I didn't have to. (If you know of any good materials, please let me know!)EndoplasmicMessenger
December 18, 2007
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FTK: Re:
PZ and other professors have added ID to their biology curriculum and they are ripping it to shreds.
I just want to note -- on long observation of typical evolutionary materialists' tactics -- that rhetoric and spin games that exploit the ignorance of students and the public are very, very different from a cogent, honestly thoughtful response that first of all fairly states what is being asserted and argued by Design Theory thinkers, and why. [Cf my always linked and just updated, through my handle.] Also, that, for good reason, I hold that the entire evolutionary materialism project is intellectually bankrupt. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
December 18, 2007
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Apparently the term neo Darwinism is not one accepted by many evolutionary biologists. It is certainly a term that is in use but is not as wide spread as we suppose. The more accepted term is "modern synthesis." Wikipedia has a discussion of the use of the term "neo Darwinsim" since first coined in 1895 by George Romanes. The tenets of the more preferred term, modern synthesis, according to Wikipedia is "According to the modern synthesis as established in the 1930s and 1940s, genetic variation in populations arises by chance through mutation (this is now known to be sometimes caused by mistakes in DNA replication) and recombination (exchange of genetic material between homologous segments of DNA). Evolution consists primarily of changes in the frequencies of alleles between one generation and another as a result of genetic drift, gene flow, and natural selection. Speciation occurs gradually when populations are reproductively isolated, for example by geographical barriers." There is much in this that ID accepts and in fact it should incorporate these tenets into itself because there is plenty of evidence that it works. And it adds to the variety of life and makes it richer and more able to resist extinction. The single contention is that the only source of variation in a population is the result of chance mutations. This a source of some variation but there is little evidence that it provides anything but a small amount of variation. But also the modern synthesis only works for micro-evolution and that is the distinction we should focus on. Focus on the science of neo Darwinism and the modern synthesis and we will have common grounds to discuss especially if we agree to accept a lot of it as consistent with ID. It is the philosophical speculations that accompany many of these discussions that lead to the contentious rhetoric even when these philosophical speculations are not specifically expressed. If we do accept these scientific tenets then when someone as ignorant as Larry Moran appears on the scene and tells us the answer is natural selection and genetic drift we can tell Larry that these are part of ID so what is he talking about. The main scientific argument is and will always be the origin of variation on which natural selection and genetic drift work. Until we learn to separate the various parts of the debate (e.g. genetics from source of variation, macro evolution from the mechanism of natural selection) we will be forever throwing meaningless rhetoric at each other and essentially not have a productive conversation. Remember not all who come here to challenge ID are like Larry Moran. Some are open to reason but we have to be people of reason in return. Also many more that do not comment read this blog and may be affected by those who present the most reasonable arguments.jerry
December 18, 2007
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I entirely agree with Barry. NDE claims that ALL biological species arose for RM + NS. The proposition is very clear, no misunderstanding. As Barry rightly says, its truth has no degrees. Simply it can be true or false, tertium non datur. Unfortunately the claim is false and then no compromise is possible. It would be as we try a compromise on the hypothesis that 2+2=5. Darwinists are loosing the chess game against ID and offer the balance to avoid the checkmate…niwrad
December 18, 2007
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But it seems to me that compromise does not fit in well with the quest for scientific truth. If two mutually exclusive theories purport to explain the same data, one of them may be right and the other one wrong, or they may both be wrong, but no one suggests we should seek a “compromise” between the two theories.
I would disagree that this is how science works. Yes, sometimes there are theories that are in direct competition, but as often as not the situation is one where the theories are not totally opposed to each other, and what happens when a new theory becomes established is that there is a lot of noise at meetings, people defend their own views, and eventually a consensus emerges where the new theory is merged into the current framework. A few things get nudged around to make space, but it is essentially a compromise. I guess endosymbiosis would be one good example. BobBob O'H
December 17, 2007
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-----Barry A "Detection of purpose is not beyond the ken of science even when bound by methodological naturalism. In fact, this happens all the time. Every time an archeologist classifies a stone as an arrowhead, he has made a telic explanation of the data without resorting to supernatural causes. In the same way, a telic explanation of the obviously designed nanobots in the cell does not rely upon divine causality, just intelligent causality." Does this activity not transcend methodological naturalism the moment it considers the possibility that neither law nor chance can explain the event?StephenB
December 17, 2007
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The difference is that life is said to have developed over millions and billions of years and people assume that when given that amount of time, evolution is possible.ari-freedom
December 17, 2007
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Jerry writes in [1]: “If Dembski, Wells and Behe accept these basic capabilities of NDE then I see no reason why they should just be part of the ID package.” Neither do I. ID posits that intelligent agency is the best explanation for some (not all) phenomena. ID and NDE are not mutually exclusive at the edge of evolution. Accepting this fact is not a compromise by the ID community; it is merely giving NDE its due where it in fact seems to explain the data. ID and NDE become mutually exclusive well beyond the edge of evolution. A cellular nanobot is either designed or not designed. As prhean points out, it cannot be “kind of” designed. This is one of the discrete functions to which I referred. It is yes/no true/false. NDE flatly states the nanobot is not designed by an intelligent agent to any extent whatsoever. ID posits that an intelligent agent acted to bring the nanobot into existence. NDE may be right and ID wrong; ID may be right and NDE wrong; or they may both be wrong, in which case nd the nanobot resulted from some process not yet conceived. But they cannot both be right. There is no compromise position between the two.BarryA
December 17, 2007
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bFast writes: "If the scientific community, in the spirit of holding to methodological naturalism rejected all telic explanations." I don't agree. "Telic" means "tending toward a goal" or "purposeful." Detection of purpose is not beyond the ken of science even when bound by methodological naturalism. In fact, this happens all the time. Every time an archeologist classifies a stone as an arrowhead, he has made a telic explanation of the data without resorting to supernatural causes. In the same way, a telic explanation of the obviously designed nanobots in the cell does not rely upon divine causality, just intelligent causality.BarryA
December 17, 2007
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Dr. Sewell, the UP was not directed at your comments.BarryA
December 17, 2007
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