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Confusing Probability: The “Every-Sequence-Is-Equally-Improbable” Argument

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Note to Readers:

The past few days on this thread there has been tremendous activity and much discussion about the concept of probability.  I had intended to post this OP months ago, but found it still in my drafts folder yesterday mostly, but not quite fully, complete.  In the interest of highlighting a couple of the issues hinted at in the recent thread, I decided to quickly dust off this post and publish it right away.  This is not intended to be a response to everything in the other thread.  In addition, I have dusted this off rather hastily (hopefully not too hastily), so please let me know if you find any errors in the math or otherwise, and I will be happy to correct them.

—–

Confusing Probability: The “Every-Sequence-Is-Equally-Improbable” Argument

In order to help explain the concept of probability, mathematicians often talk about the flip of a “fair coin.”  Intelligent design proponents, including William Dembski, have also used the coin flip example as a simplified way to help explain the concept of specified complexity.

For example, a flip of a fair coin 500 times can be calculated as a simple 2 to the 500th power, with the odds of such a sequence being approximately 1 in 3.3*10^150.  Based on this simple example, I have heard some intelligent design proponents, perhaps a little too simplistically, ask: “What would we infer if we saw 500 heads flipped in a row?”

At this point in the conversation the opponent of intelligent design often counters with various distractions, but perhaps the favorite argument – certainly the one that at least at first blush appears to address the question with some level of rationality – is that every sequence is just as improbable as another.  And therefore, comes the always implied (and occasionally stated) conclusion, there is nothing special about 500 heads in a row.  Nothing to see here; move along, folks.  This same argument at times rears its head when discussing other sequences, such as nucleotides in DNA or amino acid sequences in proteins.

For simplicity’s sake, I will discuss two examples to highlight the issue: the coin toss example and the example of generating a string of English characters.

Initial Impressions

At first blush, the “every-sequence-is-just-as-improbable-as-the-next” (“ESII” hereafter) argument appears to make some sense.  After all, if we have a random character generator that generates a random lowercase letter from the 26 characters in the English alphabet, where each character is generated without reference to any prior characters, then in that sense, yes, any particular equal-length sequence is just as improbable as any other.

As a result, one might be tempted to conclude that there is nothing special about any particular string – all are equally likely.  Thus, if we see a string of 500 heads in a row, or HTHTHT . . . repeating, or the first dozen prime numbers in binary, or the beginning of Hamlet, then, according to the ESII argument, there is nothing unusual about it.  After all, any particular sequence is just as improbable as the next.

This is nonsense.

Everyone, including the person making the ESII argument, knows it is nonsense.

A Bridge Random Generator for Sale

Imagine you are in the market for a new random character generator.  I invite you to my computer lab and announce that I have developed a wonderful new random character generator that with perfect randomness selects one of 26 lowercase letters in the English alphabet and displays it, then moves on to the next position, with each character selection independent of the prior.  If I then ran my generator and it spit out 500 a’s in a row, everyone in the world would immediately and clearly and unequivocally recognize that something funny was going on.

But if the ESII argument is valid, no such recognition is possible.  After all, every sequence is just as improbable as the next, the argument goes.

Yet, contrary to that claim, we would know, with great certainty, that something was amiss.  Any rational person would immediately realize that either (i) there was a mistake in the random character generator, perhaps a bad line of code, or (ii) I had produced the 500 a’s in a row purposely.  In either case, you would certainly refuse to turn over your hard-earned cash and purchase my random character generator.

Why does the ESII argument so fully and abruptly contradict our intuition?  Could our intuition about the random character generator be wrong?  Is it likely that the 500 a’s in a row was indeed produced through a legitimate random draw?  Where is the disconnect?

Sometimes intelligent design proponents, when faced with the ESII argument, are at a loss as to how to respond.  They know – everyone knows – that there is something not quite right about the ESII argument, but they can’t quite put a finger on it.  The ESII argument seems correct on its face, so why does it so strongly contradict our real-world experience about what we know to be the case?

My purpose today is to put a solid finger on the problems with the ESII argument.

In the paragraphs that follow, I will demonstrate that it is indeed our experience that is on solid ground, and that the ESII argument suffers from two significant, and fatal, logical flaws: (1) assuming the conclusion and (2) a category mistake.

Assuming the Conclusion

On this thread R0bb stated:

Randomly generate a string of 50 English characters. The following string is an improbable outcome (as is every other string of 50 English characters): aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

R0bb goes on to note that the probability of a particular string occurring is dependent on the process that produced it.  I agree on that point.

Yet there is a serious problem with the “everything-is-just-as-improbable” line of argumentation when we are talking about ascertaining the origin of something.

When R0bb claims his string of a’s is just as improbable as any other string of equal length, that is only true by assuming the string was generated by a random generator, which, if we examine his example, is exactly what he did.

However, the way in which an artifact was generated when we are examining it to determine its origin is precisely the question at issue.  Saying that every string of equal length is just as improbable as any other, in the context of design detection, is to assume as a premise the very conclusion we are trying to reach.

We cannot say, when we see a string of characters (or any other artifact) that exhibits a specification or particular pattern, that “Well, every other outcome is just as improbable, so nothing special to see here.” The improbability, as Robb pointed out, is based on the process that produced it. And the process that produced it is precisely the question at issue.

When we come across a string like: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa or some physical equivalent, like a crystal structure or a repeating pulse from a pulsar, we most definitely do not conclude it was produced by some random process that just happened to produce all a’s this time around, because, hey, every sequence is just as improbable as the next.

Flow of Analysis for Design Detection

Let’s dig in just a bit deeper and examine the proper flow of analysis in the context of design detection – in other words in the context of determining the origin of, or the process that produced, a particular sequence.

The proper flow of analysis is not:

  1. Assume that two sequences, specified sequence A and unspecified sequence B, arose from a random generator.
  2. Calculate the odds of sequence A arising.
  3. Calculate the odds of sequence B arising.
  4. Compare the odds and observe that the odds are equal.
  5. Conclude that every sequence is “just as likely” and, therefore, there is nothing special about a sequence that constitutes a specification.

Rather, the proper flow of analysis is:

  1. Observe the existence of specified sequence A.
  2. Calculate the odds of sequence A arising, assuming a random generator.
  3. Observe that a different cause, namely an intelligent agent, has the ability to produce sequence A with a probability of 1.
  4. Compare the odds and observe that there is a massive difference between the odds of the two causal explanations.
  5. Conclude, based on our uniform and repeated experience and by way of inference to the best explanation, that the more likely source of the sequence was an intelligent agent.

The problem with the first approach – the approach leading to the conclusion that every sequence is just as improbable as the next – is that it assumes the sequence under scrutiny was produced by a random generator.  Yet the origin of the sequence is precisely the issue in question.

This is the first problem with the ESII claim.  It commits a logical error in thinking that the flow of analysis is to assume a random generator and then compare sequences, when the question of whether a random generator produced the specified sequence in the first place is precisely the issue in question.  As a result, the ESII argument against design detection fails on logical grounds because it assumes as a premise the very conclusion it is attempting to reach.

The Category Mistake

Now let us examine a more nuanced, but equally important and substantive, problem with the ESII argument.  Consider the following two strings:

ababababababababababababababab

qngweyalbpelrngihseobkzpplmwny

When we consider these two strings in the context of design detection, we immediately notice a pattern in the first string, in this case a short-period repeating pattern ‘ab’.  That pattern is a specification.  In contrast, the second string exhibits no clear pattern and would not be flagged as a specification.

At this point the ESII argument rears its head and asserts that both sequences are just as improbable.  We have already dispensed with that argument by showing that it assumes as its premise the very conclusion it is trying to reach.  Yet there is a second fundamental problem with the ESII argument.

Specifically, when we are looking at a new artifact to see whether it was designed, we need not be checking to see if it conforms to an exact, previously-designated, down-to-the-letter specification.  Although it is possible that in some particular instance we might want to home in on a very specific pre-defined sequence for some purpose (such as when checking a password), in most cases we are interested in a general assessment as to whether the artifact exhibits a specification.

If I design a new product, if I write a new book, if I paint a new painting – in any of these cases, someone could come along afterwards and recognize clear indicia of design.  And that is true even if they did not have in mind a precise, fully-detailed description of the specification up front.  It is true even if they are making what we might call a “post specification.”

Indeed, if the outside observer did have such a fully-detailed specification up front, then it would have been them, not I, that had designed the product, or wrote the book, or painted the painting.

Yet, the absence of a pre specification does not deter their ability to — correctly and accurately — infer design in the slightest.  As with the product or the book or the painting, every time we recognize design after the fact, which we do regularly every day, we are drawing an inference based on a post specification.

The reason for this is that when we are looking at an artifact to determine whether it is designed, we are usually analyzing its general properties of specification and complexity rather than the very specific sequence in question.  Stated another way, it is the fact of a particular type of pattern that gives away the design, not necessarily the specific pattern itself.

Back to our example.  If instead of aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, our random character generator produced ababababababababababababababab, we would still be confident that something was fishy with the random character generator.  The same would be true with acacacacacacacacacacacacacacac and so on.  We could also alter the pattern to make it somewhat longer, perhaps abcdabcdabcdabcdabcdabcdabcdabcd or even abcdefghabcdefghabcdefghabcdefgh and so on.

Indeed, there are many periodic repetitive patterns that would raise our suspicions just as much and would cause us to conclude that the sequence was not in fact produced by a legitimate random draw.

How many repetitive sequences would raise our suspicions – how many would we flag as a “specification”?  Certainly dozens or even hundreds.  Likely many thousands.  A million?  Yes, perhaps.

“But, Anderson,” you complain, “doesn’t your admission that there are many such repetitive sequences mean that we have to increase the likelihood of a random process stumbling upon a sequence that might be considered a “specification”?  Absolutely.  But let’s keep the numbers in context.

From Repetition to Communication

I’ll return to this in a moment, but first another example to drive the point home.  In addition to many repetitive sequences, don’t we also have to consider non-repetitive, but meaningful sequences?  Absolutely.

David Berlinski, in his classic essay, The Deniable Darwin, notes the situation thusly:

Linguists in the 1950’s, most notably Noam Chomsky and George Miller, asked dramatically how many grammatical English sentences could be constructed with 100 letters. Approximately 10 to the 25th power, they answered. This is a very large number. But a sentence is one thing; a sequence, another. A sentence obeys the laws of English grammar; a sequence is lawless and comprises any concatenation of those 100 letters. If there are roughly 10^25 sentences at hand, the number of sequences 100 letters in length is, by way of contrast, 26 to the 100th power. This is an inconceivably greater number. The space of possibilities has blown up, the explosive process being one of combinatorial inflation.

Berlinski’s point is well taken, but let’s push him even further.  What about other languages?  Might we see a coherent sentence show up in Spanish or French?  If we optimistically include 1,000 languages in the mix, not just English, we start to move the needle slightly.  But, remarkably, still not very much.  Even generously ignoring the very real problem of additional characters in other languages, we end up with an estimate of something on the order of 10^28 language sequences – 10^28 patterns that we might reasonably consider as specifications.

In addition to Chomsky’s and Miller’s impressive estimate of coherent language sentences, let’s now go back to where we started and add in the repetitive patterns we mentioned above.  A million?  A billion?  Let’s be generous and add 100 billion repetitive patterns that we think might be flagged as a specification.  It hardly budges the calculation.  It is a rounding error.  We still have approximately 10^28 potential specifications.

10^28 is a most impressive number, to be sure.

But, as Berlinski notes, the odds of a specific sequence in a 100-character string, is 1 in 26^100, or 3.14 x 10^141.  Just to make the number simpler for discussion, let’s again be more generous and divide by a third: 1 x 10^141.  If we subtract out the broad range of potential specifications from this number, we are still left with an astronomically large number of sequences that would not be flagged as a specification.  How large?  Stated comparatively, given a 100-letter randomly-generated sequence, the odds of us getting a specification  — not a particular pre-determined specification, any specification — are only 1 in 10^113.

What Are the Odds?

What this means in practice is that even if we take an expansive view of what can constitute a “specification,” the odds of a random process ever stumbling upon any one of these 10^28 specifications is still only approximately 1 in 10^113.  This is an outrageously large number and one that gives us excellent confidence, based on what we know and our real-world experience, that if we see any of these specifications – not just a particular one, but any one of them out of the entire group of specifications, that it likely did not come from a random draw.  And it doesn’t even make much difference if our estimate of specifications is off by a couple orders of magnitude.  The difference between the number of specifications and non-specifications is so great it would still be a drop in the proverbial bucket.

Now 1 in 10^113 is a long shot to be sure; it is difficult if not impossible to grasp such a number.  But intelligent design proponents are willing to go further and propose that a higher level of confidence should be required.  Dembski, for example, proposed 1 in 10^150 as a universal probability bound.  In the above example, Berlinski and I talked of a 100-character string.  But if we increase it to 130 characters then we start bumping up against the universal probability bound.  More characters would of course compound the odds.

Furthermore, when we have, as we do with living systems, multiple such sequences that are required for a molecular machine or a biological process or a biological system – arranged as they are in their own additional specified configuration that would compound the odds – then such calculations quickly go off the charts.

We can quibble about the exact calculations.  We can add more languages and can dream up other repetitive patterns that might, perhaps, be flagged as specifications.  We can tweak the length of the sequence and argue about minutiae.  Yet the fundamental lesson remains: the class of nonsense sequences vastly outnumbers the class of meaningful and/or repetitive sequences.

To sum, when we see the following sequences:

(1)       ababababababababababababababab

(2)       tobeornottobethatisthequestion

(3)       qngweyalbpelrngihseobkzpplmwny

We need to understand that rather than comparing one improbable sequence with another equally improbably sequence, what we are really comparing is a recognizable pattern, in the form of either (1) a repetitive sequence or (2) a meaningful sequence, versus (3) what appears to be a nonsense, random draw.

Properly formulated thusly, the probability of (1) or (2) versus (3) is definitely not equal.

Not even close.

Not even in the ballpark.

Thus, the failure to carefully identify what we are dealing with for purposes of design detection gives the ESII proponent the false impression that when choosing between a recognizable pattern and a random draw we are dealing with equivalent odds.  We are not.

—–

Conclusion

While examples of coin tosses and character strings may be oversimplifications in comparison to biological systems, such examples do give us an idea of the basic probabilistic hurdles faced by any random-based process.

The ESII argument, popular though it may be among some intelligent design opponents, is fatally flawed.  First, because it assumes as a premise (random generation) the very conclusion it seeks to reach.  Second, because it fails to properly define sequences, mistakenly assuming that a random sequence is on the same probabilistic footing as a patterned/specified sequence, rather than properly looking at the relative sizes of the two categories of sequences.

Opponents of intelligent design may be able to muster rational arguments that question the strength of the design inference, but the “every-sequence-is-equally-improbable” argument is not one of them.

Comments
jdk @66 @68 I can give you my interpretation:
Forexhr: Of course, in theory you can assume that favorable outcome had been specified before the event and than use the probability formula. But in this case you are not calculating the probability but what the probability would have been ....>>
>>... if that favorable outcome had been specified before the outcome/event. IOWs you are measuring a hypothetical pre-specification. But, as Forexhr points out, that's a only a probability reflecting a theoretical/hypothetical event, because, in fact, no actual pre-specification exists. But this is, of course, just my interpretation. Hopefully Forexhr will point it out when I misunderstood his reasoning.Origenes
June 7, 2017
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So, no, we don’t have to include the additional odds of the Darwinian mechanism (compounding odds that would only make things worse for the Darwinian story, by the way). Here we’re just looking at the islands of function and the probabilities of stumbling across them, an issue that selection can’t do anything about.
Why would you think that? The "islands" are formed by billions of years of divergent evolution. When lineages evolve apart from each other for billions of years they become quite distinct, I'm not sure why you think selection can't drive that process.
Finally, for readers out there, I would note the irony of wd400’s repeated request that intelligent design proponents must calculate the probability of the Darwinian descent-with-modification mechanism when the ones proposing the Darwinian mechanism have not only steadfastly refused to provide such a calculation but seem quite averse to even addressing the issue. See here for why this is the height of hubris and an attempt to overturn the rightful burden of proof: https://uncommondescent.com/darwinism/must-csi-include-the-probabilities-of-all-natural-processes-known-and-unknown/
I had forgotten about this, but I have to say I am amazed that you would link a thread that puts you in such a terrible light. If you read back over the threads you will see that you made the claim that the probability of a given sequence arising by naturalistic process, termed P(T|H) in CSI and essential for calculating this statistic, could be calculated by 20^(n.amino acids). This is so wrong that it's kind of breathtaking (in fact I used it as an example of an obviously silly calculation above, forgetting that you had done this). IDists invented CSI, if they want to show that biology displays it then it is really up to them to do the calculations. Of course, Dembski and others do not claim that CSI is evidence that modern evolutionary biology is an improbable explanation for biological diversity (they simply assume it, and demonstrate how making this assumption can lead to probability argument for design).wd400
June 7, 2017
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Origenes, did you read my post at 66? I am confused about what forexhr is saying: he says both "Yes", that "I can’t figure that probability out unless I specified five green cards and actually dealt them" and then "in theory you can assume that favorable outcome had been specified before the event and than use the probability formula." These seem like contradictory statements. And then he says about the theoretical probability, "But in this case you are not calculating the probability but what the probability would have been", which just doesn't make sense. How does the verb tense "might have been" apply to a theoretical probability? You said it was well-stated, so maybe you can explain.jdk
June 7, 2017
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Forexhr @64
Forexhr: ... probability is the measure of the likelihood that an event will occur. Without specifying the favorable outcome there is nothing to measure. Of course, in theory you can assume that favorable outcome had been specified before the event and than use the probability formula. But in this case you are not calculating the probability but what the probability would have been.
Well said. One side note. The specification only needs to originate independent from the outcome. A valid specification can come into existence after the outcome just as long as it is not informed by the outcome.Origenes
June 7, 2017
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to forexhr at 64: When I wrote,
Are you really saying that I can’t figure that probability out unless I specified five green cards and actually dealt them?,
you replied,
Yes that’s what I am saying, because probability is the measure of the likelihood that an event will occur. Without specifying the favorable outcome there is nothing to measure. Of course, in theory you can assume that favorable outcome had been specified before the event and than use the probability formula. But in this case you are not calculating the probability but what the probability would have been.
I don't understand the verb tense here. Assume I have calculated the theoretical probability of five green cards even though no one will ever create the deck I hypothesized, nor actually deal any cards. (It's about 2%: 1 in 57 exactly.) But you are saying that is not really the probability, but what the probability "would have been". Would have been when? That is a conditional tense, but you have no consequent. Do you mean "you are not calculating the probability but what the probability would be" if I actually dealt the cards. That would be grammatically correct, but it might not be what you mean. (It would also be wrong, because I don't understand how one could possible state the we couldn't talk about hypothetical or theoretical probability unless the events described were actualized.) I'd have a real hard time teaching my probability chapter if I couldn't just say, "Let's figure out the probability of getting dealt a full house" without dealing until I got a full house. Can you clarify?jdk
June 7, 2017
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kf @57:
JDK & EA, the issue lieth not in individual microstates but in the clusters.
Agreed, at least in terms of our typical ability to identify a post-specification after the event.
Cards and our recognition of special patterns is a bit artificial and distractive. Although the Math is relevant, it tends to be side-tracked.
I agree that the examples of cards and coins can get sidetracked. My effort over several posts has been to clarify and help people correct and avoid the sidetracks. I do think there is value in looking at these "simple" cases because (i) they help us start to appreciate the math, (ii) they help us understand the odds in a tractable way, and (iii) we are more likely (I'm an optimist) to have an occasional Darwinist sit up and take notice when they see a simple case with real math, than when they can hide behind the vague Darwinian claim of "descent with modification" as though it provided some answer to the origin of the biological novelty.* Your other thoughts on the fundamental issues with design in the living world are of course spot on. ----- * Case in point: note my comments @62 in response to wd400's attempt above to require Darwinian skeptics to calculate the probabilities of the Darwinian mechanism -- an inherently impossible task due to its vague character, which is part of the reason the Darwinists have never calculated it themselves, being instead quite content with vague assertions and made up stories.Eric Anderson
June 7, 2017
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jdk @ 60: "Are you really saying that I can’t figure that probability out unless I specified five green cards and actually dealt them?" Yes that's what I am saying, because probability is the measure of the likelihood that an event will occur. Without specifying the favorable outcome there is nothing to measure. Of course, in theory you can assume that favorable outcome had been specified before the event and than use the probability formula. But in this case you are not calculating the probability but what the probability would have been.forexhr
June 7, 2017
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forexhr @49: Thanks for the thoughts. I like your idea of looking at the particular environment to identify the potential outcomes that could be considered. I think jdk has also responded @50. I would just add that it seems to me what you are focusing on -- rightly so -- is specification. This is the elephant in the room that Kitcher missed in his attempted refutation of Behe. We can have a pre-event specification or a post-event specification. The pre-event specifications are the easy case and no-one has ever had a problem with that. However in biology we are of course typically dealing with a post-event specification. That is where Dembski has argued that we can tighten up our ability to post-specify, so that it becomes a rigorous and reliable inference. It does involve some nuances, however, which is why so many people (like Kitcher or R0bb in my OP) get off track.Eric Anderson
June 7, 2017
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wd400 @46:
Well, this is not true. Human and yeast genes share only about 30% of amino acids, but in many cases the one can be replaced for the other. There are protein famalies in which no amino acid at all is conserved across all species.
These are interesting comparative observations. One might be forgiven for asking what experimental backup it has? Furthermore, even if we assume that a human gene performing a particular function could be completely and fully replaced with a yeast gene that would perform the same function without any adverse consequences to the human (something that I highly doubt has much empirical support), it still doesn't impact my point. Then we could triumphantly note that we have evidence of 2 amino acid sequences that can perform the same function (assuming we were also able to confirm that no splicing or editing was taking place during protein synthesis). I don't have a problem with the idea that there may be more than one sequence that can perform the same function. There may well be several amino acid combinations that could be formed into proteins with the same function. How many? 10? 100? 1000? It won't even budge the calculation. Yet at the same time it is well known, not just through the hazy lens of comparative genomics, but through actual experiments and health data, that in many cases even a single substitution can cause serious consequences. So, yes, I agree that the precise "plasticity" of proteins as to their underlying sequences is an open question. As I said, these are excellent questions that invite careful research. But there is very little rational reason to think that we can make substitutions willy-nilly on a large scale and keep the same function. Indeed it would be very naive to think so.
How can you test “the Darwinian claim” without actually including selection and descent with modification in your calculation? If the probability is determined by assuming all states are equiprobable then you have made the very mistake you claim is made in the ESII argument, haven’t you? (The last version of CSI that Dembski defended spells this out pretty clearly, although, of course, he never actually makes a calclation).
You are misunderstanding what I said. If islands of function are rare, as they most certainly are, the islands of function still have to be hit upon by chance. We don't get to invoke any "mechanism" for that. What I stated was that "the Darwinian claim is that this nearly invisible speck [the islands of function] was miraculously hit upon. Over and over and over." My statement actually gives Darwinism way more credit than it deserves and way more opportunity than would occur in reality. It ignores the problems of getting this rare island of function incorporated in the organism in a way that is heritable, of getting the function spread throughout the population, of keeping the function in place once obtained, of avoiding interfering reactions, and so on. I only hinted at some of the additional problems for the Darwinian story when I noted in the OP:
Furthermore, when we have, as we do with living systems, multiple such sequences that are required for a molecular machine or a biological process or a biological system – arranged as they are in their own additional specified configuration that would compound the odds – then such calculations quickly go off the charts.
Otherwise, my example assumes that all the other problems with the Darwinian story are happily resolved. So, no, we don't have to include the additional odds of the Darwinian mechanism (compounding odds that would only make things worse for the Darwinian story, by the way). Here we're just looking at the islands of function and the probabilities of stumbling across them, an issue that selection can't do anything about. ----- Finally, for readers out there, I would note the irony of wd400's repeated request that intelligent design proponents must calculate the probability of the Darwinian descent-with-modification mechanism, when the ones proposing the Darwinian mechanism have not only steadfastly refused to provide such a calculation but seem quite averse to even addressing the issue. See here for why this is the height of hubris and an attempt to overturn the rightful burden of proof: https://uncommondescent.com/darwinism/must-csi-include-the-probabilities-of-all-natural-processes-known-and-unknown/Eric Anderson
June 7, 2017
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Jammer @ 58: Well said. Strong.Truth Will Set You Free
June 7, 2017
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forexhr at 56: At 50 I wrote,
1. If I study, in theory, what would happen if I create a random sequence by flipping a coin three times, I can figure out what the possible random sequences are (HHH, HHT, etc) and I can figure out the probability of each of those: P(HHH) = 1/8, P{HHT) = 1/8 etc. Is there anything wrong about that sentence?
You replied,
@1. You cannot figure out the probability, but only what the probability would have been if the favorable outcome(HHT for e.g.) had been specified before the coins were flipped.
Your reply doesn't even seem to apply to what I wrote, as I talked about figuring out the probability in theory, without mentioning actually flipping any real coins at all. Your answer seem to imply that one couldn't figure out any probabilities in theory. For instance, suppose I dealt 5 cards from a deck of cards with 11 green and 11 blue cards. I can figure out the probability of getting all green cards even though this deck of cards will never exist and the 5 cards will never be dealt. Are you really saying that I can't figure that probability out unless I specified five green cards and actually dealt them?jdk
June 7, 2017
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deleted [by jdk]jdk
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I'm still awaiting the day an attorney pulls out a deck of cards in a courtroom to show the jury that improbable things happen all the time. "You see, your honor, while the DNA evidence may point to my client with 99.99994% confidence, improbable things happen all the time." *pulls out a deck of cards* Just how hard would he be laughed out of the courtroom? Yet, these 19th-century-minded, anti-intellectual savages want to use the same laughable argument to defend their atheistic miracles. Pathetic!Jammer
June 7, 2017
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JDK & EA, the issue lieth not in individual microstates but in the clusters. Cards and our recognition of special patterns is a bit artificial and distractive. Although the Math is relevant, it tends to be side-tracked. That is one reason why I have emphasised looking at the world of life (esp. OoL) from a thermodynamic, statistical, blind search challenge perspective, and also the issue of the challenge of fine tuning for a cosmos well-fitted for cell-based life. Where it does not require precise or exacting probability estimates, to recognise an overwhelming blind search challenge; especially as search for golden search implies a selection from the set of subsets of the first-level config space, an exponentially harder challenge, given that a set of size n elements implies a power set of size 2^n. In that context, the issue is observable multi-component (material or abstract makes little difference) functional coherence giving us the context of functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information, FSCO/I. We can test the coherence by perturbing it enough, and will readily see the isolated islands of function in vast configuration spaces dominated by seas of non-function effect. Where, use of description languages (think Auto-CAD etc) shows discussion on binary strings is WLOG. This leads to blind search challenge that then rapidly overwhelms blind search resources of the sol system or the observed cosmos (the only actually scientifically observed cosmos). It is then utterly unsurprising that the only actually observed causal source for such FSCO/I is intelligently directed configuration, AKA design. With trillions of observed cases in point. All of this justifies inference to design on FSCO/I as reliable sign, where self-replication per von Neumann kinematic self-replicator is an example of the FSCO/I to be accounted for at OoL. Cf still live discussion: https://uncommondescent.com/design-inference/fft-antikythera-paley-crick-axe-the-first-computer-claim-and-the-design-inference-on-sign/ KFkairosfocus
June 6, 2017
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jdk @50 @1. You cannot figure out the probability, but only what the probability would have been if the favorable outcome(HHT for e.g.) had been specified before the coins were flipped. @2. The second sentence is correct since the above condition is satisfied. When evolutionists discuss probability they consfuse conditional(@1.) with actual(@2.) probabilities.forexhr
June 6, 2017
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Dr Sewell, yes. Odd. KFkairosfocus
June 6, 2017
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What about a set of 52 distinct items? Would we expect to see fewer specifications? Intuitively it seems the answer is yes, as it might be harder to build “patterns”.
I think the answer to this is yes. Patterns are seen by us, as human beings. If the things being studied already have patterns easily identifiable by us, it seem to me that there will be more chances that subsets of those elements will also contain patterns that we identify rather than if we just had 52 distinct but otherwise non-patterned objects. For instance, in the latter case, there is no order to consider, and the only groupings we would see would be groups of the same object.jdk
June 6, 2017
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jdk @45: Thanks.
if we start with a situation that already contains patterns that we recognize, such as 4 suits and 13 cards in order per suit . . . we are bound to find more significant events than if we have n elements . . . that are totally distinct, with no natural order or categorizing attributes.
This is an interesting idea. I was tentatively inclined to agree, but I think we need to think through the situation to make sure there is a substantive difference. Are you saying that we might find more specifications if we have a deck of cards than if, say, we had 52 tosses of a coin where we have only 2 elements (H or T) rather than colors, numbers in order, etc.? (Of course we also have significant hands in card play, but that is really an outside meaning imposed on the cards by the rules of a particular game, rules that would change from game to game. This would be analogous to Berlinski's example of non-repetitive meaningful English sentences, rather than repetitive type patterns.) What about a set of 52 distinct items? Would we expect to see fewer specifications? Intuitively it seems the answer is yes, as it might be harder to build "patterns". Yet is this actually a difference in substance, or just a natural result of the fact that we are dealing with one larger set (52 distinct items) than 4 smaller sets (4 x 13 distinct items)?Eric Anderson
June 6, 2017
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GBDixon @27: Thanks for the comments. We have to be careful about Shannon. He was interested in communication more than meaningful information. Information can clearly be information even before it is transmitted or received by a recipient -- i.e., before it is part of a communication experience. I can't go into the details here, but see this prior post for a detailed discussion of the issue: https://uncommondescent.com/informatics/id-basics-information-part-ii-when-does-information-arise/Eric Anderson
June 6, 2017
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Origenes, In another related post you asked what the probabilities were for two events: 1) Writing down the # 5 on a piece of paper, and then flipping a fair die that lands on 5 2) Flipping a fair die, and it lands on 5. I think I have my own answer to these two events. But I would like your hear your answer. What do you think the probabilities are for these two events? juwilkerjuwilker
June 6, 2017
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1. If I study, in theory, what would happen if I create a random sequence by flipping a coin three times, I can figure out what the possible random sequences are (HHH, HHT, etc) and I can figure out the probability of each of those: P(HHH) = 1/8, P{HHT) = 1/8 etc. Is there anything wrong about that sentence? 2. Then, if I actually flip three coins and get HHT, I can say "the probability of that having happened is 1/8? Is there anything wrong about that sentence?jdk
June 6, 2017
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@ Eric Anderson: "mistakenly assuming that a random sequence is on the same probabilistic footing as a patterned/specified sequence.." Random sequence has absolutely nothing to do with probability but with necessity. For e.g., when cards are being dealt it is necessary to get some distribution of cards. Probability on the other hand is the measure of the likeliness of being dealt specific cards that were specified before dealing. This is obvious if we look at the probability formula - the probability of an event A is defined as P(A) = number of favorable outcomes/ total number of possible outcomes. In the case of random sequence, the numerator(number of favorable outcomes) of the probability formula is missing and thus it is impossible to calculate the probability. But, that doesn't mean that we can't take an event that already happened and then calculate the probability of it happening (DNA sequence for e.g.). The only condition is that the number of favorable outcomes is definable. For e.g. if we are looking at the cards dealt one after another and ask what was the probability for this arrangement, then this is a nonsensical question because we cannot relate this arrangement back to an environment before the cards were dealt, for example to something that someone said or wrote about favorable arrangements of cards. In other words, the number of favorable outcomes is not definable and it is impossible to calculate the probability. In the case of DNA sequences we have a completely different story. Although nobody defined the number of favorable outcomes before the formation of DNA sequences, this number is definable with regards to a particular environment. For e.g., if the environment is the intron-exon gene structure, then favorable outcomes are all DNA sequences that are capable to produce functional RNA splicing machine. If the environment is a specific nutrient, then favorable outcomes are all DNA sequences that are capable to produce pathway for metabolising this nutrient. If the environment is the female reproductive system, then favorable outcomes are all DNA sequences that are capable to produce male reproductive system. That is why we can calculate the probability of DNA sequences, but we cannot calculate the probability of random sequences. The phrase "the probability of a random sequence" is a mathematical oxymoron.forexhr
June 5, 2017
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If one calculates the probability for a smooth landscape...
And how are you going to do that?wd400
June 5, 2017
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wd400: How can you test “the Darwinian claim” without actually including selection and descent with modification in your calculation? If the probability is determined by assuming all states are equiprobable then you have made the very mistake you claim is made in the ESII argument, haven’t you?
Let's suppose that the right environment (a sufficiently smooth landscape) can assist the search for a certain amino acid sequence. IOWS due to the right sequence of environments, finding a certain amino acid becomes less improbable. The follow-up question is: what is the probability that there is such a smooth landscape? IOWS what is the probability that an environment provides exactly the right stepping stones to facilitate the search for the amino acid? If one calculates the probability for a smooth landscape and factors it in, then, in the best scenario, you break even wrt probabilities overall. 'Conservation of information' informs us that we cannot improve on a blind search — in this case the blind serach for a particular amino acid sequence — unless information is being inputted by an intelligent agent.
Dembski: The reason it's called "conservation" of information is that the best we can do is break even, rendering the search no more difficult than before. In that case, information is actually conserved. Yet often, as in this example, we may actually do worse by trying to improve the probability of a successful search. Thus, we may introduce an alternative search that seems to improve on the original search but that, once the costs of obtaining this search are themselves factored in, in fact exacerbate the original search problem.
Origenes
June 5, 2017
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These are excellent questions, questions that invite and require careful research. And, yes, they would change the calculation somewhat. But my understanding of the evidence to date is that the number of permissible changes to an amino acid sequence to retain protein function is quite small. It isn’t going to impact the probability calculation in any meaningful way.
Well, this is not true. Human and yeast genes share only about 30% of amino acids, but in many cases the one can be replaced for the other. There are protein famalies in which no amino acid at all is conserved across all species. It is true that the over-specification is only one problem with these sorts of arguments. You illustrate another.
So, yes, it is certainly correct to note that with some proteins there is a small subset of sequences that could perform the same function. But we mustn’t fool ourselves into thinking that this observation impacts the design inference. Indeed, in the examples I have provided, I have acknowledge and taken into account the fact that many sequences would be flagged as functional or specified. The probability still cuts decisively against the Darwinian claim.
How can you test "the Darwinian claim" without actually including selection and descent with modification in your calculation? If the probability is determined by assuming all states are equiprobable then you have made the very mistake you claim is made in the ESII argument, haven't you? (The last version of CSI that Dembski defended spells this out pretty clearly, although, of course, he never actually makes a calclation).wd400
June 5, 2017
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re 42, Eric writes,
This brings up an interesting point. One of the things I’ve been thinking about is if we could write a program to sift through sequences and flag things that appear as specifications. I’m not sure it would work very well with non-repetitive, meaningful sequences, because we would still be relying on significant human input to specify what sequences to look for. But it should work better with repetitive-type sequences and perhaps could at least give us a better idea of the number of repetitive-type sequences that would be flagged. Thoughts?
Sure, although, as you say, we (the programmers) would have to write the judgment rules. This is what I had in mind in my posts on the other thread where I suggested a "significance value." But there would be so many issues to make judgements about (such as, would events that were "almost significant" count, such as just a couple elements not matching the pattern") that I'm not sure you could get a result that was very meaningful. But with that said, even if the rules were fairly judgmental, if you applied the same rules to sets of increasing size, I'm sure you would see the result that I, and Phinehas, mentioned: that the larger the set the greater the ratio of non-significant events to significant events. And I like to say again, because no one has acknowledged this as an importnat point, if we start with a situation that already contains patterns that we recognize, such as 4 suits and 13 cards in order per suit, or even the numbers 1 through 6 on a die, we are bound to find more significant events than if we have n elements (52 or 6, in these cases) that are totally distinct, with no natural order or categorizing attributes. And P.P, I am using percentage in the sense of ratio: I know the actual numbers involved are very small decimals in many of the situations we are discussing, not everyday percentages.jdk
June 5, 2017
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Heartlander Excellent point EA. One must assume the random generation from a multiverse to overcome the sequence of events leading to our special occurrence: just to clarify a couple of things in this nice post Large moon with right rotation period So the rotation period of the moon is not a surprising thing because it is in tidal lock which is a common condition in planetary mechanics. Tidal lock causes the rotation angular velocity to be matched identically with orbital angular velocity, so it is no rare or surprising thing to have the appearance of only one view of the moon from earth. The tidal lock zones of specific bodies can be estimated by masses, distances, and material properties of orbiting bodies and their orbited body. Mercury is in tidal lock. What is remarkable and surprising is that without the moon the earth's tilt would be radically unstable, but not because of the other planets but because the vectors representing earth's rotation and it's orbital revolution angular momenta are not parallel which is the cause of a tendency to instability. This instability is minimized by the moon's mass and orbit, not its rotation. I know next to nothing of planetary mechanics, for the record except what's in introductory college physics. Right amount of water in crust It's probably a miracle that Earth has any H2O because science so far cannot come up with even a likely scenario about how such a mass of H2O appeared on a supposedly (according to scientific thinking) once red-hot planet. Much less prove how it happened.groovamos
June 5, 2017
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But the birthday problem situation usually surprises people the other way: In a room of 30 people you have about a 50% chance of two people having the same birthday. Most people would guess that considerably more people would be necessary. Probability can be slippery. Also, there are lots of places where you get big numbers really quickly. This is probably not considered true anymore (as our estimate of the number of galaxies has grown), but at one time it was said (based on the knowledge of the time) that the number of ways you can arrange the cards in a 52 card deck is about the same as the number of elementary particles in the universe. So it doesn't take a very complicated situation to produce probabilities that involve very low probabilities.jdk
June 5, 2017
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Phineas and jdk @36/37: Phineas:
Past a certain point of complexity, the specifications (or significant sequences), no matter how broadly you define them, are so low as a percentage that you can practically ignore them and just use the probability.
This is one of the things that surprised me when I was doing the math for my little example. I generously assumed 100 billion repetitive-type sequences as specifications. It didn't even budge the calculation. When I said it was "a rounding error" it was not a figure of speech. Now the number of non-repetitive specified sequences is arguably much greater, so I don't think we can so easily dismiss them as insignificant. To be sure, the numbers are still staggering, so the conclusion is still the same. But I think it is fair to acknowledge that we are talking about 10^113 instead of 10^141 (in my example). On the other hand, you have expressed your comment as a "percentage", which in most ordinary endeavors we might only take out to several decimals. In serious calculation terms I think we still need to look at the numbers and do the scientific notation. But you are right, that in terms of getting a general sense as to the "likelihood" of something or the "percentage" chance, we can almost ignore the specification. The likelihood or percentage chance is effectively zero in both cases. Only if we take our percentage out to many, many decimal places, would the specification even be visible. So I guess I'm saying that we should be careful to take the full math into account to as many decimals as we can, but, yes, for purposes of drawing a practical real-world assessment, we can "practically ignore" (as you say) the specifications once we get out to a reasonably high level of complexity. ----- jdk:
Yes, I agree Phinehas, especially if the source of our judgment about specification is human understanding.
This brings up an interesting point. One of the things I've been thinking about is if we could write a program to sift through sequences and flag things that appear as specifications. I'm not sure it would work very well with non-repetitive, meaningful sequences, because we would still be relying on significant human input to specify what sequences to look for. But it should work better with repetitive-type sequences and perhaps could at least give us a better idea of the number of repetitive-type sequences that would be flagged. Thoughts?Eric Anderson
June 5, 2017
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daveS @25:
. . . it would take about 2^500 trials before the chance of a repeated bit string reaches 50%, which is many more than I had anticipated.
Thanks. An interesting way to look at the problem. In other words, for a given situation, how many trials do we need before we even get to a 50-50 level of likelihood? Never mind claims of "it happened this way by chance" or even suggestions that "with enough time it is likely". Let's take a good hard look at the actual math and the astounding number of trials to even get to a "maybe/maybe-not" level of confidence. This is another good way of helping people get a feel for the astonishingly astronomical numbers we are talking about.Eric Anderson
June 5, 2017
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