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Controlling the waves of dynamic, far from equilibrium states: the NF-kB system of transcription regulation.

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I have recently commented on another thread:

about a paper that (very correctly) describes cells as dynamic, far from equilibrium systems, rather than as “traditional” machines.

That is true. But, of course, the cell implements the same functions as complex machines do, and much more. My simple point is that, to do that, you need much greater functional complexity than you need to realize a conventional machine.

IOWs, dynamic, far from equilibrium systems that can be as successful as a conventional machine, or more, must certainly be incredibly complex and amazing systems, systems that defy everything else that we already know and that we can conceive. They must not only implement their functional purposes, but they must do that by “harnessing” the constantly changing waves of change, of random noise, of improbability. I have commented on those ideas in the mentioned thread, at posts #5 and #8, and I have quoted at posts #11 and #12 a couple of interesting and pertinent papers, introducing the important concept of robustness: the ability to achieve reliable functional results in spite of random noise and disturbing variation.

In this OP, I would like to present in some detail a very interesting system that shows very well what we can understand, at present, of that kind of amazing systems.

The system I will discuss here is an old friend: it is the NF-kB system of transcription factors (nuclear factor kappa-light-chain-enhancer of activated B cells). We are speaking, therefore, of transcription regulation, a very complex topic that I have already discussed in some depth here:

I will remind here briefly that transcription regulation is the very complex process that allows cells to be completely different using the same genomic information: IOWs, each type of cell “reads” differently the genes in the common genome, and that allows the different types of cell differentiation and the different cell responses in the same cell type.

Transcription regulation relies on many different levels of control, that are summarized in the above quoted OP, but a key role is certainly played by Transcription Factors (TFs), proteins that bind DNA and act as activators or inhibitors of transcription at specific sites.

TFs are a fascinating class of proteins. There are a lot of them (1600 – 2000 in humans, almost 10% of all proteins), and they are usually medium sized proteins, about 500 AA long, containing at least one highly conserved domain, the DNA binding domain (DBD), and other, often less understood, functional components.

I quote again here a recent review about human TFs:

The Human Transcription Factors

The NK-kB system is a system of TFs. I have discussed it in some detail in the discussion following the Ubiquitin thread, but I will describe it in a more systematic way here.

In general, I will refer a lot to this very recent paper about it:

Considering Abundance, Affinity, and Binding Site Availability in the NF-kB Target Selection Puzzle

The NF-kB system relies essentially on 5 different TFs (see Fig. 1 A in the paper):

  1. RelA  (551 AAs)
  2. RelB  (579 AAs)
  3. c-Rel  (619 AAs)
  4. p105/p50 (968 AAs)
  5. p100/p52  (900 AAs)

Those 5 TFs work forming dimers, homodimers or heterodimers, for a total of 15 possible compbinations, all of which have been found to work in the cell, even if some of them are much more common.

Then there are at least 4 inhibitor proteins, collectively called IkBs.

The mechanism is apparently simple enough. The dimers are inhibited by IkBs and therefore they remain in the cytoplasm in inactive form.

When an appropriate signal arrives to the cell and is received by a membrane receptor, the inhibitor (the IkB molecule) is phosphorylated and then ubiquinated and detached from the complex. This is done by a protein complex called IKK. The free dimer can then migrate to the nucleus and localize there, where it can act as a TF, binding DNA.

This is the canonical activation pathway, summarized in Fig. 1. There is also a non canonical activation pathway, that we will not discuss for the moment.


Mechanism of NF-κB action. In this figure, the NF-κB heterodimer consisting of Rel and p50 proteins is used as an example. While in an inactivated state, NF-κB is located in the cytosol complexed with the inhibitory protein IκBα. Through the intermediacy of integral membrane receptors, a variety of extracellular signals can activate the enzyme IκB kinase (IKK). IKK, in turn, phosphorylates the IκBα protein, which results in ubiquitination, dissociation of IκBα from NF-κB, and eventual degradation of IκBα by the proteasome. The activated NF-κB is then translocated into the nucleus where it binds to specific sequences of DNA called response elements (RE). The DNA/NF-κB complex then recruits other proteins such as coactivators and RNA polymerase, which transcribe downstream DNA into mRNA. In turn, mRNA is translated into protein, resulting in a change of cell function.

Attribution: Boghog2 at English Wikipedia [Public domain]

Now, the purpose of this OP is to show, in greater detail, how this mechanism, apparently moderately simple, is indeed extremely complex and dynamic. Let’s see.

The stimuli.

First of all, we must understand what are the stimuli that, arriving to the cell membrane, are capable to activate the NF-kB system. IOWs, what are the signals that work as inputs.

The main concept is: the NF-kB system is a central pathway activated by many stimuli:

  1. Inflammation
  2. Stress
  3. Free radicals
  4. Infections
  5. Radiation
  6. Immune stimulation

IOWs, a wide variety of aggressive stimuli can activate the system

The extracellular signal arrives to the cell usually through specific cytokines, for example TNF, IL1, or through pathogen associated molecules, like bacterial lipopolysaccharides (LPS). Of course there are different and specific membrane receptors, in particular IL-1R (for IL1) , TNF-R (for TNF), and many TLRs (Toll like receptors, for pathogen associated structures). A special kind of activation is implemented, in B and T lymphocytes, by the immune activation of the specific receptors for antigen epitopes (B cell receptor, BCR, and T cell receptor, TCR).

The process through which the activated receptor can activate the NF-kB dimer is rather complex: it involves, in the canonical pathway, a macromolecular complex called IKK (IkB kinase) complex, comprising two catalytic kinase subunits (IKKa and IKKb) and a regulatory protein (IKKg/NEMO), and involving in multiple and complex ways the ubiquitin system. The non canonical pathway is a variation of that. Finally, a specific protein complex (CBM complex or CBM signalosome) mediates the transmission from the immune BCR or TCR to the canonical pathway. See Fig. 2:

From: NF-κB Activation in Lymphoid Malignancies: Genetics, Signaling, and Targeted Therapy – Scientific Figure on ResearchGate. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Increased-activity-of-the-CARMA1-BCL10-MALT1-signalosome-drives-constitutive-NF-kB_fig2_324089636 [accessed 10 Jul, 2019]
Figure 3 – NF-κB Activation in Lymphoid Malignancies: Genetics, Signaling, and Targeted Therapy
available via license: Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International

I will not go into further details about this part, but those interested can have a look at this very good paper:

TLR-4, IL-1R and TNF-R signaling to NF-kB: variations on a common theme

In particular, Figg. 1, 2, 3.

In the end, as a result of the activation process, the IkB inhibitor is degraded by the ubiquitin system, and the NK-kB dimer is free to migrate to the nucleus.

An important concept is that this is a “rapid-acting” response system, because the dimers are already present, in inactive form, in the cytoplasm, and must not be synthesized de novo: so the system is ready to respond to the activating signal.

The response.

But what is the cellular response?

Again, there are multiple and complex possible responses.

Essentially, this system is a major regulator of innate and adaptive immune responses. As such, it has a central role in the regulation of inflammation, in immunity, in autoimmune processes, and in cancer.

Moreover, the NF-kB system is rather ubiquitous, and is present and active in many different cell types. And, as we have seen, it can be activated by different stimuli, in different ways.

So, the important point is that the response to activation must be (at least):

  1. Lineage-specific
  2. Stimulus-specific

IOWs, different cells must be able to respond differently, and each cell type must respond differently to different stimuli. That gives a wide range of possible gene expression patterns at the transcription level.

The following paper is a good review of the topic:

Selectivity of the NF-κB Response

For example, IL2 is induced by NF-kB activayion in T cells, but not in B cells (lineage specific response). Moreover, specific cell types can undergo specific, and often different, cell destinies after NF-kB activation: for example, NK-kB is strongly involved in the control and regulation of T and B cell development.

From:

30 years of NF-κB: a blossoming of relevance to human pathobiology

“B and T lymphocytes induce NF-κB in adaptive immune responses through the CARD11:Bcl10:MALT1 (CBM) complex (Hayden and Ghosh, 2008). Newly expressed genes promote lymphocyte proliferation and specific immune functions including antibody production by B cells and the generation of cytokines and other anti-pathogen responses by T cells.”

And, in the same cell type, certain promoters regulated by NF-kB require additional signaling (for example,  in human dendritic cells promoters for Il6Il12b, and MCP-1 require additional p38 histone phosphorylation to be activated), while others can be activated directly (stimulus-specific response).

So, to sum up:

  1. A variety of stimuli can activate the system in different ways
  2. The system itself has its complexity (different dimers)
  3. The response can be widely different, according to the cell type where it happens, and to the type of stimuli that have activated the system, and probably according to other complex variables.
  4. The possible responses include a wide range of regulations of inflammation, of the immune system, of cell specifications or modifications, and so on.

How does it work?

So, what do we know about the working of such a system?

I will ignore, for the moment, the many complexities of the activation pathways, both canonical and non canonical, the role of cyotkines and receptors and IKK complexes, the many facets of NEMO and of the involvement of the ubiquitin system.

For simplicity, we will start with the activated system: the IkB inhibitor has been released from the inactive complex in the cytoplasm, and some form of NF-kB dimer is ready to migrate to the nucleus.

Let’s remember that the purpose of this OP is to show that the system works as a dynamic, far from equilibrium system, rather than as a “traditional” machine. And that such a way to work is an even more amazing example of design and functional complexity.

To do that; I will rely mainly on the recent paper quoted at the beginning:

Considering Abundance, Affinity, and Binding Site Availability in the NF-kB Target Selection Puzzle

The paper is essentially about the NF-kB Target Selection Puzzle. IOWs, it tries to analyze what we know about the specificity of the response. How are specific patterns of transcription achieved after the activation of the system? What mechanisms allow the selection of the right genes to be transcribed (the targets) to implement the specific patterns according to cell type, context, and type of stimuli?

A “traditional” view of the system as a machine would try to establish rather fixed connections. For example, some type of dimer is connected to specific stimuli, and evokes specific gene patterns. Or some other components modulate the effect of NK-kB, generate diversification and specificity of the response.

Well, those ideas are not completely wrong. In a sense, the system does work also that way. Dimer specificity has a role. Other components have a role. In a sense, but only in a sense, the system works as though it were a traditional machine, and uses some of the mechanisms that we find in the concept of a traditional biological machine.

But that is only a tiny part of the real thing.

The real thing is that the system really works as a dynamic, far from equilibrium system, harnessing huge random/stochastic components to achieve robustness and complexity and flexibility of behavior in spite of all those non finalistic parts.

Let’s see how that happens, at least for the limited understanding we have of it. It is important to consider that this is a system that has been studied a lot, for decades, because of its central role in so many physiological and pathological contexts, and so we know many things. But still, our understanding is very limited, as you will see.

So, let’s go back to the paper. I will try to summarize as simply as possible the main concepts. Anyone who is really interested can refer to the paper itself.

Essentially, the paper analyzes three important and different aspects that contribute to the selection of targets at the genomic level by our TFs (IOWs, our NF-kB dimers, ready to migrate to the nucleus. As the title itself summarizes, they are:

  1. Abundance
  2. Affinity
  3. Binding site availability

1. Abundance

Abundance is referred here to two different variables: abundance of NF-kB Binding Sites in the genome and abundance of Nucleus-Localized NF-kB Dimers. Let’s consider them separately.

1a) Abundance of NF-kB Binding Sites in the genome:

It is well known that TFs bind specific sites in the genome. For NF-kB TFs, the following consensus kB site pattern has been found:

 5′-GGGRNWYYCC-3′

where R, W, Y, and N, respectively denote purine, adenine or thymine, pyrimidine, and any nucleotide.

That simply means that any sequence corresponding to that pattern in the genome can, in principle, bind NF-kB dimers.

So the problem is: how many such sequences do exist in the human genome?

Well, a study based on RelA has evaluated about 10^4 consensus sequences in the whole genome, but as NF-kB dimers seem to bind even incomplete consensus sites, the total number of potential binding sites could be nearer to 10^6

1b) Abundance of Nucleus-Localized NF-kB Dimers:

An estimate of the abundance of dimers in the nucleus after activation of the system is that about 1.5 × 10^5 molecules can be found, but again that is derived from studies about RelA only. Moreover, the number of molecules and type of dimer can probably vary much according to cell type.

So, the crucial variable, that is the ratio between binding sites and available dimers, and which could help undertsand the rate of sites saturation in the nucleus, remains rather undecided, and it seems very likely that it can vary a lot in different circumstances.

But there is another very interesting aspect about the concentration of dimers in the nucleus. According to some studies, NF-kB seems to generate oscillations of its nuclear content in some cell types, and those oscillation can be a way to generate specific transcription patterns:

NF-kB oscillations translate into functionally related patterns of gene expression

For example, this very recent paper :

NF-κB Signaling in Macrophages: Dynamics, Crosstalk, and Signal Integration

shows at Fig. 3 the occupancy curve of binding sites at nuclear level after NF-kB activation in two different cell types.

In fibroblasts, the curve is a periodic oscillation, with a frequency that varies according to various factors, and translates into different transcription scenarios accordingly:

Gene expression dynamics scale with the period (g1) and amplitude (g2) of these oscillations, which are influenced by variables such as signal strength, duration, and receptor identity.


In macrophages, instead, the curve is rather:

a single, strong nuclear translocation event which persists for as long as the stimulus remains and tends to remain above baseline for an extended period of time.

In this case, the type of transcription will be probably regulated by the are under the curve, ratehr than by the period and amplitude of the oscialltions, as happened in fibroblasts.

Interestingly, while in previous studies it seemed that the concentration of nuclear dimers could be sufficient to saturate most or all binding sites, that has been found not to be the case in more recent studies. Again from the paper about abundance:

in fact, this lack of saturation of the system is necessary to generate stimulus- and cell-type specific gene expression profiles

Moreover, the binding itself seems to be rather short-lived:

Interestingly, it is now thought that most functional NF-kB interactions with chromatin—interactions that lead to a change in transcription—are fleeting… a subsequent study using FRAP in live cells expressing RelA-GFP showed that most RelA-DNA interactions are actually quite dynamic, with half-lives of a few seconds… Indeed, a recent study used single-molecule tracking of individual Halo-tagged RelA molecules in live cells to show that the majority (∼96%) of RelA undergoes short-lived interactions lasting on average ∼0.5 s, while just ∼4% of RelA molecules form more stable complexes with a lifetime of ∼4 s.

2. Affinity

Affinity of dimers for DNA sequences is not a clear cut matter. From the paper:

Biochemical DNA binding studies of a wide variety of 9–12 base-pair sequences have revealed that different NF-kB dimers bind far more sequences than previously thought, with different dimer species exhibiting specific but overlapping affinities for consensus and non-consensus kB site sequences.

IOWs, we have different dimers (15 different types) binding with varying affinity different DNA sequences (starting from the classical consensus sequence, but including also incomplete sequences). Remember that those sequences are rather short (the consensus sequence is 10 nucleotides long), and that there are thousands of such sequences in the genome.

Moreover, different bindings can affect transcription differently. Again, from the paper:

How might different consensus kB sites modulate the activity of the NF-kB dimers? Structure-function studies have shown that binding to different consensus kB sites can alter the conformation of the bound NF-kB dimers, thus dictating dimer function When an NF-kB dimer interacts with a DNA sequence, side chains of the amino  acids located in the DNA-binding domains of dimers contact the bases exposed in the groove of the DNA. For different consensus kB site sequences different bases are exposed in this groove, and NF-kB seems to alter its conformation to maximize interactions with the DNA and maintain high binding affinity. Changes in conformation may in turn impact NF-kB binding to co-regulators of transcription, whether these are activating or inhibitory, to specify the strength and dynamics of the transcriptional response. These findings again highlight how the huge array of kB binding site sequences must play a key role in modulating the transcription of target genes.

Quite a complex scenario, I would say!

But there is more:

Finally, as an additional layer of dimer and sequence-specific regulation, each of the subunits can be phosphorylated at multiple sites with, depending on the site, effects on nearly every step of NF-kB activation.

IOWs, the 15 dimers we have mentioned can be phosphorylated in many different ways, and that changes their binding affinities and their effects on transcription.

This section of the paper ends with a very interesting statement:

Overall, when considering the various ways in which NF-kB dimer abundances and their affinity for DNA can be modulated, it becomes clear that with these multiple cascading effects, small differences in consensus kB site sequences and small a priori differences in interaction affinities can ultimately have a large impact on the transcriptional response to NF-kB pathway activation.

Emphasis mine.

This is interesting, because in some way it seems to suggest that the whole system acts like a chaotic system, at least at some basic level. IOWs, small initial differences, maybe even random noise, can potentially affect deeply the general working of the whole systems.

Unless, of course, there is some higher, powerful level of control.

3. Availability of high affinity kB binding sequences

We have seen that there is a great abundance and variety of binding sequences for NF-kB dimers in the human genome. But, of course, those sequences are not necessarily available. Different cell types will have a different scenario of binding sites availability.

Why?

Because, as we know, the genome and chromatin are a very dynamic system, that can exist in many different states, continuosly changing in different cell types and, in the same cell type, in different conditions..

We know rather well the many levels of control that affect DNA and chromatin state. In brief, they are essentially:

  1. DNA methylation
  2. Histone modifications (methylation, acetylation, etc)
  3. Chromatin modifications
  4. Higher levels of organization, including nuclear localization and TADs (Topologically Associating Domains)

For example, from the paper:

The promoter regions of early response genes have abundant histone acetylation or trimethylation prior to stimulation [e.g., H3K27ac, (67) and H4K20me3, (66)], a chromatin state “poised” for immediate activation…  In contrast, promoters of late genes often have hypo-acetylated histones, requiring conformational changes to the chromatin to become accessible. They are therefore unable to recruit NF-kB for up to several hours after stimulation (68), due to the slow process of chromatin remodeling.

We must remember that each wave of NK-kB activation translates into the modified transcription of a lot of different genes at the genome level. It is therefore extremely important to consider what genes are available (IOWs, their promoters can be reached by the NF-kB signal) in each cell type and cell state.

The paper concludes:

Taken together, chromatin state and chromatin organization strongly influence the selection of DNA binding sites by NF-kB dimers and, most likely, the selection of the target genes that are regulated by these protein-DNA interaction events. Analyses that consider binding events in the context of three-dimensional nuclear organization and chromatin composition will be required to generate a more accurate view of the ways in which NF-kBDNA binding affects gene transcription.

This is the main scenario. But there are other components, that I have not considered in detail for the sake of brevity, for example competition between NF-kB dimers and the complex role and intervention of other co-regulators of transcription.

Does the system work?

But does the system work?

Of course it does. It is a central regulator, as we have said, of many extremely important biological processes, above all immunity. This is the system that decides how immune cells, T and B lymphocytes, have to behave, in terms of cell destiny and cell state. It is of huge relevance in all inflammatory responses, and in our defense against infections. It works, it works very well.

And what happens if it does not work properly?

Of course, like all very complex systems, errors can happen. Those interested can have a look at this recent paper:

30 years of NF-κB: a blossoming of relevance to human pathobiology

First of all, many serious genetic diseases have been linked to mutations in genes involved in the system. You can find a list in Table 1 of the above paper. Among them, for example, some forms of SCID, Severe combined immunodeficiency, one of the most severe genetic diseases of the immune system.

But, of course, a dysfunction of the NF-kB system has a very important role also in autoimmune diseases and in cancer.

Conclusions.

So, let’s try to sum up what we have seen here in the light of the original statement about biological systems that “are not machines”.

The NF-kB system is a perfect example. Even if we still understand very little of how it works, it is rather obvious that it is not a traditional machine.

A traditional machine would work differently. The signal would be transmitted from the membrane to the nucleus in the simplest possible way, without ambiguities and diversions. The Transcription Factor, once activated, would bind, at the level of the genome, very specific sites, each of them corresponding to a definite cascade of specific genes. The result would be clear cut, almost mechanical. Like a watch.

But that’s not the way things happen. There are myriads of variations, of ambiguities, of stochastic components.

The signal arrives to the membrane in multiple ways, very different one from the other: IL1, IL17, TNF, bacterial LPS, and immune activation of the B cell receptor (BCR) or the T cell receptor (TCR) are all possible signals.

The signal is translated to the NF-kB proteins in very different ways: canonical or non canonical activation, involving complex protein structures such as:

The CBM signalosome, intermediate between immune activation of BCR or TCR and canonical activation of the NF-kB. This complex is made of at least three proteins, CARD11, Bcl10 and MALT1.

The IKK complex in canonical activation: this is made of three proteins, IKK alpha, IKK beta, and NEMO. Its purpose is to phosphorylate the IkB, the inhibitor of the dimers, so that it can be ubiquinated and released from the dimer. Then the dimer can relocate to the nucleus.

Non canonical pathway: it involves the following phosphorylation cascade: NIK -> IKK alpha dimer -> Relb – p100 dimer -> Relb – p50 dimer (the final TF). It operates during the development of lymphoid organs and is responsible for the generation of B and T lymphocytes.

Different kinds of activated dimers relocate to the nucleus.

Different dimers, in varying abundance, interact with many different binding sites: complete or incomplete consensus sites, and probably others. The interaction is usually brief, and it can generate an oscillating pattern, or a more stable pattern

Completely different sets of genes are transcribed in different cell types and in different contexts, because of the interaction of NF-kB TFs with their promoters.

Many other factors and systems contribute to the final result.

The chromatin state of the cell at the moment of the NF-kB activation is essential to determine the accessibility of different binding sites, and therefore the final transcription pattern.

All these events and interactions are quick, unstable, far from equilibrium. A lot of possible random noise is involved.

In spite of that amazing complexity and potential stochastic nature of the system, reliable transcripion regulation and results are obtained in most cases. Those results are essential to immune cell differentiation, immune response, both innate and adaptive, inflammation, apoptosis, and many other crucial cellular processes.

So, let’s go back to our initial question.

Is this the working of a machine?

Of course it is! Because the results are purposeful, reasonably robust and reliable, and govern a lot of complex processes with remarkable elegance and efficiency.

But certainly, it is not a traditional machine. It is a lot more complex. It is a lot more beautiful and flexible.

It works with biological realities and not with transistors and switches. And biological realities are, by definition, far from equilibrium states, improbable forms of order that must continuously recreate themselves, fighting against the thermodynamic disorder and the intrinsic random noise that should apparently dominate any such scenario.

It is more similar to a set of extremely clever surfers who succeed in performing elegant and functional figures and motions in spite of the huge contrasting waves.

It is, from all points of view, amazing.

Now, Paley was absolutely right. No traditional machine, like a watch, could ever originate without design.

And if that is true of a watch, with its rather simple and fixed mechanisms, how much truer it must be for a system like NF-kB? Or, for that, like any cellular complex system?

Do you still have any doubts?

Added graphic: The evolutionary history, in terms of human conserved information, of the three proteins in the CBM signalosome.
On the y axis, homologies with the human protein as bits per aminoacid (bpa). On the x axis, approximate time of appearance in million of years.
The graphic shows the big information jump in vertebrates for all three protens , especially CARD11.


Added graphic: two very different proteins and their functional history


Added graphic (for Bill Cole). Functional history of Prp8, collagen, p53.
Comments
GP Agreed. You've done a great job to expose the reality of those systems. The functional relationships are indication of purpose and design, yes. I think what happens also is that evolutionists find some safety in the complexity that you reveal. They assume that nobody will actually go that far "down into the weeds" so they can always claim there's something going on that is far too sophisticated for the average IDist to understand. So, they hide in the details. You've called their bluff and show what is really going on, and it is inexplicable from their mechanisms. They look for an escape but there is none. I agree also that it's not merely a defeat of RM + NS that is indicated, but evidence of design in the actual operation of complex systems. Another tactic we see is that an extremely minor point is attacked and they attempt to show that it could have resulted from a mutation or HGT or drift. If they can make it half-way plausible then their entire claim will stand unrefuted, supposedly. It's a game of hide-and-seek, whack-a-mole. We have to deal with 50 years of story-telling that just continued to build one assumption upon another, without any evidence, and having gained unquestioning support from academia simply on the idea that "evolution is right and every educated and intelligent person believes in it". But even in papers citing evolution they never (or rarely) give the probabilistic outlooks on how it could have happened.Silver Asiatic
July 13, 2019
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To all: This is interesting: Single-molecule dynamics and genome-wide transcriptomics reveal that NF-kB (p65)-DNA binding times can be decoupled from transcriptional activation https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6353211/
Abstract Transcription factors (TFs) regulate gene expression in both prokaryotes and eukaryotes by recognizing and binding to specific DNA promoter sequences. In higher eukaryotes, it remains unclear how the duration of TF binding to DNA relates to downstream transcriptional output. Here, we address this question for the transcriptional activator NF-?B (p65), by live-cell single molecule imaging of TF-DNA binding kinetics and genome-wide quantification of p65-mediated transcription. We used mutants of p65, perturbing either the DNA binding domain (DBD) or the protein-protein transactivation domain (TAD). We found that p65-DNA binding time was predominantly determined by its DBD and directly correlated with its transcriptional output as long as the TAD is intact. Surprisingly, mutation or deletion of the TAD did not modify p65-DNA binding stability, suggesting that the p65 TAD generally contributes neither to the assembly of an "enhanceosome," nor to the active removal of p65 from putative specific binding sites. However, TAD removal did reduce p65-mediated transcriptional activation, indicating that protein-protein interactions act to translate the long-lived p65-DNA binding into productive transcription.
Now, let's try to understand what this means. First of all, just to avoid confusion, p65 is just another name for RelA, the most common among the 5 proteins that contribute to NF-kB dimers. The paper here studied the behavour of the p65(RelA)-p50 dimer, with special focus on the RelA interaction with DNA. Now, we know that RelA, like all TFs, has a DNA binding domain (DBD) which binds specific DNA sites. We also know that the DBD is usually strongly conserved, and is supposed to be the most functional part in the TF. The paper here shows, in brief, that the DBD is really responsible for the DNA binding and for its stability (the duration of the binding), and the duration is connected to transcription. However, it is not the DBD itself that works on transcription, but rather the two protein-protein transactivation domains (TADs). While DNA binding is necessary to activate transcription, mere DNA binding does not work: mutations in the TADs will reduce transcription, even if the DNA binding remains stable. IOWs, it's the TADs that really affect transcription, even if the DBD is necessary. OK, why is that interesting? Let's see. The DBD is located, in the RelA molecule, in the first 300 AAs (the human protein is 551 AAs long). The two TADs are located, instead, in the last part of the molecule, more or less the last 100 - 200 AAs. So, I have blasted the human protein against our old friends, cartilaginous fishes. Is the protein conserved across our usual 400+ million years? The answer is the same as for most TFs: moderately so. In Rhincodon typus, we have about 404 bits of homology, less than 1 bit per aminoacid (bpa). Enough, but not too much. But is it true that the DBD is highly conserved? It certainly is. The 404 bits of homology, indeed, are completely contained in the first 300 AAs or so. IOWs, the homology is practically completely due to the DBD. So yes, the DBD is highly conserved. The rest of the sequence, not at all. In particular, the last 100 - 200 AAs at the C terminal, where the TAD domains are localized, show almost no homology bewteen humans and cartilaginous fishes. But... we know that those TAD domains are essential for the function. It's them that really activate the transcription cascade. We can have no doubt about that! And so? So, this is a clear example of a concept that I have tried to defend many times here. There is function which remains the same through natural history. Therefore, the corresponding sequences are highly conserved. And there is function which changes. Which must change from species to species. Which is more specific to the individual species. That second type of function is not highly conserved at sequence level. Not because it is less essential, but because it is different in different species, and therefore has to change to remain functional. So, in RelA we can distinguish (at least) two different functions: a) The DNA binding: this function is implemented by the DBD (firts 300 AAs). It happens very much in the same way in humans and cartilaginous fishes, and thereofre the corresponding sequences remain highly homologous after 400+ years of evolutionary separation. b) The protein-protein interaction which really actovates the specific transcription: this function is implemented by the TADs (last 200 AAs). It is completely different in cartilaginous fishes and humans, because probably different genes are activated by the same signal, and therefore the corresponding sequence is not conserved. But it is highly functional just the same. In different ways, in the two different species. IOWs, my measure of functional information based on conserved homologies through long evolutionary times does measure functional information, but usually underestimates it. For example, in this case the value of 404 bits would measure only the conserved function in the DBD, but it would miss completely the undeniable functional information in the TAD domains, because that information, while certainly present, is not conserved among species. This is, IMO, a very important point.gpuccio
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Silver Asiatic at #24: I think that the amazing complexity of newtork functional configurations in these complex regulation systems is direct evidence of intelligence and purpose. It is, of course, also an obvious falsification of the neo-darwinist paradigm, which cannot even start to try to explain that kind of facts. You are right that post-post-neo-darwinists are trying as well as they can to build new and more fashionable religions, such as self-organization, emerging properties, magical stochastic systems, and any other intangible, imaginary principle that is supposed to help. But believe me, that will not do. That simply does not work. When really pressured, they always go back to the old good fairy tale: RV + NS. In the end, it's the only lie that retains some superficial credibility. The only game in town. Except, of course, design. :)gpuccio
July 13, 2019
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Jawa at #23: Of course Arthur Hunt would be very welcome here. Indeed, any competent defender of the neo-darwinian paradigm would be very welcome here.gpuccio
July 13, 2019
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Jawa and others: Or maybe they don't believe that there is anything in my arguments tha really favours design. Some have made that objection in the past, I believe. good arguments, but what have they to do with design? Well. I believe that they have a lot to do with design. What do you think? Do my arguments in this OP, about harnessing stochastic change to get strict funtion, favour the design hypothesis? Or are they perfectly compatible with a neo-darwinian view of reality? Just to know...gpuccio
July 13, 2019
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Jawa at #22: Frankly, I don't think they are interested in my arguments. They are probably too bad!gpuccio
July 13, 2019
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jawa
Can’t understand why the anti-ID folks allow GP to discredit neo-Darwinism so boldly in his OPs and commentaries.
Discrediting Neo-Darwinism is one phase that we go through. Probably there is enough dissent within evolutionary science that they will back off from the more extreme proclamations of the greatness of Darwin. Mainstream science mags are openly saying things like "it overturns Darwinian ideas". They don't mind the idea of revolution. They're building a defense for the next phase. It won't be Neo-Darwinism but a collection of ad hoc observations and speculations. They explain that things happen. Self-organizing chemical determination caused it. They don't need mutations or selection. Any mindless actions will do. It's not about Darwin, and it's not even about evolution. It's not even about science. It's all just a program to explain the world according to a pre-existing belief system. Even materialism is expendable when it is shown to be ridiculous. They will sell-out and jettison all previous claims and everything they use and just grab another (that's how science works, we hear) - it's all about protecting their inner belief. That's the one thing that drives all of it. We know what that inner belief is, and ID is an attempt to chip away at it from the edges - indirectly and carefully, using their own terminology and doctrines. We've done well. But defeating Darwin is only a small part. Behe has been doing it for years and they'll eventually accept his findings. The evolution story line will just adjust itself. Proving that there is actually Intelligent Design is much more difficult and without a knock-down argument, our best efforts remain ignored.Silver Asiatic
July 13, 2019
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Sorry, someone called my attention to my misspelling of UKY Professor Art Hunt’s name in my previous post. Mea culpa. :( I was referring to this distinguished professor who has posted interesting comments here before: https://pss.ca.uky.edu/person/arthur-hunt http://www.uky.edu/~aghunt00/agh.html It would be interesting to have him back here debating GP.jawa
July 13, 2019
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Can’t understand why the anti-ID folks allow GP to discredit neo-Darwinism so boldly in his OPs and commentaries. Are there objectors left out there? Have they missed GP’s arguments? Where are professors Larry Moran, Art Hunter, and other distinguished academic personalities that openly oppose ID? Did they give up? Do they lack solid arguments to debate GP? Are they afraid of experiencing public embarrassment?jawa
July 13, 2019
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To all: This paper deals in more detail with the role of NF-kB system in synaptic plasticity, memory and learning: Transcriptional Control of Synaptic Plasticity by Transcription Factor NF-kB https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4736603/
Abstract Activation of nuclear factor kappa B (NF-kB) transcription factors is required for the induction of synaptic plasticity and memory formation. All components of this signaling pathway are localized at synapses, and transcriptionally active NF-kB dimers move to the nucleus to translate synaptic signals into altered gene expression. Neuron-specific inhibition results in altered connectivity of excitatory and inhibitory synapses and functionally in selective learning deficits. Recent research on transgenic mice with impaired or hyperactivated NF-kB gave important insights into plasticity-related target gene expression that is regulated by NF-kB. In this minireview, we update the available data on the role of this transcription factor for learning and memory formation and comment on cross-sectional activation of NF-kB in the aged and diseased brain that may directly or indirectly affect kB-dependent transcription of synaptic genes. 1. Introduction Acquisition and consolidation of new information by neuronal networks often referred to as learning and memory formation depend on the instant alterations of electrophysiological parameters of synaptic connections (long-term potentiation, long-term depression), on the generation of new neurons (neuroneogenesis), on the outgrowth of axons and dendrites (neuritogenesis), and on the formation/remodulation of dendritic spines (synaptogenesis). The transmission of active synapses becomes potentiated by additional opening of calcium channels and incorporation of preexisting channel proteins, that is, during the induction of long-term potentiation. In contrast, long-term structural reorganization of the neuronal network depends on the induction of specific gene expression programs [1]. The transcription factor NF-kB has been shown to be involved in all of the aforementioned processes of learning-associated neuronal plasticity, that is, long-term potentiation, neuroneogenesis, neuritogenesis, and synaptogenesis (for review, see [2]).
A few concepts: a) All NF-kB Pathway Proteins Are Present at the Synapse. b) NF-kB Becomes Activated at Active Synapses c) NF-kB Induces Expression of Target Genes for Synaptic Plasticity d) Activation of NF-kB Is Required for Learning and Memory Formationgpuccio
July 12, 2019
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To all: We have said that NF-kB is an ubiquitously expressed transcription factor. It really is! So, while its more understood functions are mainly related to the immune system and inflammation, it does implement competely different functions in other types of cells. This very interesting paper, which is part of the research topic quoted at #3, is about the increasing evidennces of the important role of the NK-kB system in the Central Nervous System: Cellular Specificity of NF-?B Function in the Nervous System https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2019.01043/full And, again, it focuses on the cellular specificity of the NF-kB response. Here is the introduction:
Nuclear Factor Kappa B (NF-kB) is a ubiquitously expressed transcription factor with key functions in a wide array of biological systems. While the role of NF-kB in processes, such as host immunity and oncogenesis has been more clearly defined, an understanding of the basic functions of NF-kB in the nervous system has lagged behind. The vast cell-type heterogeneity within the central nervous system (CNS) and the interplay between cell-type specific roles of NF-kB contributes to the complexity of understanding NF-kB functions in the brain. In this review, we will focus on the emerging understanding of cell-autonomous regulation of NF-?B signaling as well as the non-cell-autonomous functional impacts of NF-?B activation in the mammalian nervous system. We will focus on recent work which is unlocking the pleiotropic roles of NF-kB in neurons and glial cells (including astrocytes and microglia). Normal physiology as well as disorders of the CNS in which NF-kB signaling has been implicated will be discussed with reference to the lens of cell-type specific responses.
Table 1 in the paper lists the following functions for NF-kB in neurons: -Synaptic plasticity -Learning and memory -Synapse to nuclear communication -Developmental growth and survival in response to trophic cues And, for glia: -Immune response -Injury response -Glutamate clearance -Central control of metabolism As can be seen, while the roles in glia cells are more similar to what we would expect from the more common roles in the immune system, the roles in neurons are much more specific and refined. The Table also mentions the following: "The pleiotropic functions of the NF-kB signaling pathway coupled with the cellular diversity of the nervous system mean that this table reflects generalizations, while more specific details are in the text of this review." So, while I certainly invite all interested to look at the "more specific details", I am really left with the strange feeling that, for the same reasons mentioned there (pleiotropic functions, cellular diversity, and probably many other things), everything we know about the NF-kB system, and probably all similar biological systems, really "reflects generalizations". And that should really give us a deep sense of awe.gpuccio
July 12, 2019
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OLV at #17: "Why “at least”? Could there be more?" Yes. There can always be more, in biology. Indeed, strangely, there always is more. :) By the way, nice mini-review about chromatin and transctiption you found! I will certainly read it with great attention.gpuccio
July 12, 2019
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Eugen at #16:
We have classical, celestial and quantum mechanics but this article describes the process of what we should call chemical mechanics. Why not?
Yes, why not? Chemical mechanics? That is a brilliant way to put it! :)gpuccio
July 12, 2019
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GP @11: (Regarding my questions @7) "It requires the binding of general TFs at the promoter and the formation of the pre-initiation complex (which is the same for all genes), plus the binding of specific TFs at one or more enhancer sites, with specific modifications of the chromatin structures. At least." thanks for the explanation. Why "at least"? Could there be more? With the information you provided, I found this: Introduction to the Thematic Minireview Series: Chromatin and transcriptionOLV
July 11, 2019
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We have classical, celestial and quantum mechanics but this article describes the process of what we should call chemical mechanics. Why not? :)Eugen
July 11, 2019
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To all: This is a more general paper about oscillations in TF nuclear occupancy as a way to regulate transcription: Transcription factor oscillations in neural stem cells: Implications for accurate control of gene expression https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5345753/ The abstract:
Naturally occurring oscillations in glucocorticoids induce a cyclic activation of the glucocorticoid receptor (GR), a well-characterized ligand-activated transcription factor. These cycles of GR activation/deactivation result in rapid GR exchange at genomic response elements and GR recycling through the chaperone machinery, ultimately generating pulses of GR-mediated transcriptional activity of target genes. In a recent article we have discussed the implications of circadian and high-frequency (ultradian) glucocorticoid oscillations for the dynamic control of gene expression in hippocampal neural stem/progenitor cells (NSPCs) (Fitzsimons et al., Front. Neuroendocrinol., 2016). Interestingly, this oscillatory transcriptional activity is common to other transcription factors, many of which regulate key biological functions in NSPCs, such as NF-kB, p53, Wnt and Notch. Here, we discuss the oscillatory behavior of these transcription factors, their role in a biologically accurate target regulation and the potential importance for a dynamic control of transcription activity and gene expression in NSPCs.
And here is the part about NF-kB:
The NF-kB pathway is composed of a group of transcription factors that bind to form homo- or hetero-dimers. Once formed, these protein complexes control several cellular functions such as the response to stress and the regulation of growth, cell cycle, survival, apoptosis and differentiation in NSPCs.14-16 Oscillations in NF-kB were first observed in embryonic fibroblasts, this observation suggested that temporal control of NF-kB activation is coordinated by the sequential degradation and synthesis of inhibitor kappa B (IkB) proteins.3 More recently, oscillations in the relative nuclear/cytosolic concentration of NF-kB transcription factors have been observed in single cells in vivo, indicating this may be an additional regulatory mechanism to control NF-kB-dependent transcriptional activity. Importantly, the frequency and amplitude of these oscillations changed in a cell-type dependent fashion and differentially affected the dynamics of gene expression,5 indicating that NF-kB transcription factors may use changes in the frequency and amplitude of their oscillatory dynamics to regulate the transcription of target genes.1,17 Thus, the NF-kB pathway provides a well-characterized example of how oscillatory transcription factor activity may encode additional, biologically relevant, information for an accurate control of gene expression.
So, these "waves" of nuclear occupancy by TFs, regulating transcription according to their frequency/period and amplitude, seem to be a pattern that is not isolated at all. Maybe more important and common than we can at present imagine.gpuccio
July 11, 2019
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Bornagain77: Yes, I have looked at that paper. Interesting. Indeed, divergence in TF sequences and motifs is certainly one of the main tools of specific transcription control in different organisms. A lot of superficial ideas about TFs is probably due to the rather strong conservation of known DNA binding domanis (DBDs). However, DBDs are only part of the story. The most interesting part of TF sequences is certainly to be found in the less conserved sequences and domains, even in intrinsically disordered sequences.gpuccio
July 11, 2019
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To all: Well, the first paper in the "reasearch topic" I mentioned at #3 is: Signaling Crosstalk Mechanisms That May Fine-Tune Pathogen-Responsive NF?B It immediately brings us back to an old and recurring concept: crosstalk Now, if there is one concept that screams design, that is certainly "crosstalk". Because, to have crosstalk, you need at least two intelligent systems, each of them with its own "language", interacting in intelligent ways. Or, of course, at least two intelligent people! :) This paper is about one specific aspect of the NF-kB system: transcription regulation in response to non specific stimuli from infecting agents, the so called innate immune response. You may remember from the OP that the specific receptors for bacterial or viral components (for example bacterial lipopolysaccharide , LPS) are called Toll like receptors (TLRs), and that their activation converges, through its own complex pathways, into the canonical pathway of activation of the NF-kB system. This is a generic way to respond to infections, and is called "innate immune response", to distinguish it from the adaptive immune response, where T and B lymphocytes resognize specific patterns (epitopes) in specific antigens and react to them by a complex memory and amplification process. As we know, the NF-kB system has a very central role in adaptive immunity too, but it is completely different. But let's go back to innate immunity. The response, in this case, is an inflammatory response. This response, of course, is more generic than the refined adaptive immune response, involving antibodies, killer cells and so on. However, even is simpler, the quality and quantity of the inflammatory response must be strictly fine tuned, because otherwise it becomes really dangerous for the tissues. This paragraph sums up the main concepts in the paper:
To ensure effective host defense against pathogens and to maintain tissue integrity, immune cells must integrate multiple signals to produce appropriate responses (14). Cells of the innate immune system are equipped with pattern recognition-receptors (PRRs) that detect pathogen-derived molecules, such as lipopolysaccharides and dsRNA (3). Once activated, PRRs initiate series of intracellular biochemical events that converge on transcription factors that regulate powerful inflammatory gene expression programs (15). To tune inflammatory responses, pathways that do not trigger inflammatory responses themselves may modulate signal transduction from PRRs to transcription factors through crosstalk mechanisms (Figure 1). Crosstalk allows cells to shape the inflammatory response to the context of their microenvironment and history (16). Crosstalk between two signaling pathways may emerge due shared signaling components, direct interactions between pathway-specific components, and regulation of the expression level of a pathway-specific component by the other pathway (1, 17). Since toll-like receptors (TLRs) are the best characterized PRRs, they provide the most salient examples of crosstalk at the receptor module. Key determinants of tissue microenvironments are type I and II interferons (IFNs), which do not activate NF?B, but regulate NF?B-dependent gene expression (18–21). As such, this review focuses on the cross-regulation of the TLR-NF?B signaling axis by type I and II IFNs.
So, a few interesting points: a) TLRs, already a rather complex class of receptors, are part of a wider class of receptors, the pattern recognition-receptors (PRRs). Complexity never stops! b) The interferon system is another, different system implied in innate immunity, especially in viral infections. We all know its importance. Interferons are a complex set of cytokines with its own complex set of receptors and responses. c) Howerver, the interferon system does not directly activate the NF-kB system. In a sense, they are two "parallel" signaling systems, both implied in innate immune responses. d) But, as the paper well outlines, there is a lot of "crosstalk" between the two systems. One interferes with the other at multiple levels. And that crosstalk is very important for a strict fine tuning of the innate immune response and of imflammatory processes. Interesting, isn't it? I quote here the conclusions:
Concluding Remarks Maintaining a delicate balance between effective host defense and deleterious inflammatory responses requires precise control of NF?B signaling (111). Multiple regulatory circuits have evolved to fine-tune NF?B-mediated inflammation through context-specific crosstalk (112). In this work, we have highlighted specific components of the NF?B signaling pathway for which crosstalk regulation is well-established. Despite decades of research, our current understanding of NF?B signaling remains insufficient to yield effective pharmacological targets (111, 113). Effective and specific pharmacological modulation of NF?B activity requires detailed, quantitative understanding of NF?B signaling dynamics (57). Furthermore, achieving cell-type and context-specific modulation of NF?B would be a panacea for many autoimmune and infectious diseases, as well as malignancies (112–114). To dissect the dynamic regulation of NF?B signaling, quantitative approaches with single-cell resolution are required (115). By measuring the full distribution of signaling dynamics and gene expression in single cells, rather than simple averages, one can decipher cell-intrinsic properties from tissue-intrinsic properties (116–118). Such single-cell analyses may reveal strategies for targeting pathological cell populations with high specificity, which can mitigate adverse effects of pharmacological therapy (57, 113). Furthermore, with the aid of mathematical and computational modeling, one can conduct experiments in silico that may be prohibitive in vitro or ex vivo (57, 119, 120). Finally, cross-regulatory pathways may fine-tune NF?B activity in a gene-specific manner. Many studies have identified the molecular components of gene-regulatory networks (GRNs) that control NF?B-dependent gene expression (15, 121). The regulatory mechanisms that define the topology of these GRNs include chromatin remodeling, transcription initiation and elongation, and post-transcriptional processing (15). They allow for combinatorial control by multiple factors and pathways, as well as cross-regulation (15). Further work will be required to delineate them in various physiological contexts.
As usual, emphasis is mine. Please note the "have evolved" at the beginning, practically used by default instead of a simple "do exist" or "can be observed". :)gpuccio
July 11, 2019
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Did you see this recent paper Gp?, particularly this, “Even between closely related species there’s a non-negligible portion of TFs that are likely to bind new sequences,”?
Dozens Of Genes Once Thought Widespread Are Unique To Humans - May 27, 2019 Excerpt: Researchers at the Donnelly Centre in Toronto have found that dozens of genes, previously thought to have similar roles across different organisms, are in fact unique to humans and could help explain how our species came to exist. These genes code for a class of proteins known as transcription factors, or TFs, which control gene activity. TFs recognize specific snippets of the DNA code called motifs, and use them as landing sites to bind the DNA and turn genes on or off.,,, The findings reveal that some sub-classes of TFs are much more functionally diverse than previously thought. “Even between closely related species there’s a non-negligible portion of TFs that are likely to bind new sequences,” says Sam Lambert, former graduate student in Hughes’ lab who did most of the work on the paper and has since moved to the University of Cambridge for a postdoctoral stint. “This means they are likely to have novel functions by regulating different genes, which may be important for species differences,” he says. https://uncommondescent.com/human-evolution/dozens-of-genes-once-thought-widespread-are-unique-to-humans/ paper Excerpt: Similarity regression inherently quantifies TF motif evolution, and shows that previous claims of near-complete conservation of motifs between human and Drosophila are inflated, with nearly half of the motifs in each species absent from the other, largely due to extensive divergence in C2H2 zinc finger proteins. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41588-019-0411-1
bornagain77
July 11, 2019
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OLV: Thank you! :) As you ask questions, here arer my answers: 1. Essentially, all protein coding genes, about 20000 in the human genome. 2. It requires the binding of general TFs at the promoter and the formation of the pre-initiation complex (which is the same for all genes), plus the binding of specific TFs at one or more enhancer sites, with specific modifications of the chromatin structures. At least. 3. Yes. It is an epigenetic process.gpuccio
July 11, 2019
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Jawa: Thank you! :) I really hope there will be some interesting discussion.gpuccio
July 11, 2019
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KF: Thank you! :) Appreciate your enthusiasm! :)gpuccio
July 11, 2019
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PeterA: Thank you. :) Indeed, the topic is fascinating. We really need to go beyond our conventional ideas about biology, armed by the powerful weapons of design inference and functional complexity.gpuccio
July 11, 2019
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I agree with PeterA @ 4 and join Jawa @6 to second KF@5. However, before embarking in a careful reading of what GP has written, let me publicly confess here that I still don't understand certain basic things associated with transcription: 1. are there many DNA segments that can get transcribed by the RNA polymerase to a pre-mRNA that later can be spliced to form the mRNA that goes to translation? 2. what mechanisms determine which of those multiple potential segments is transcribed at a given moment? Don't they all have starting and ending points? Then why will the RNA-polymerase transcribe one segment and not another? Are the starting marks different for every DNA segment? 3. is this an epigenetic issue or something else? Perhaps these (most probably dumb) questions have been answered many times in the literature I have read, but I still don't quite get it. I would fail to answer those questions if I had to pass a test on this subject right now. Any help with this? Thanks. PS. the papers GP has linked in this OP are very interesting.OLV
July 11, 2019
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I second KF @5. It's a pleasure to see a new OP by GP. However, as usual, it's so dense that it requires some chewing before it can be digested, at least partially. :) Perhaps this time I see some loud anti-ID folks like the professors from Toronto and Kentucky will dare to present some valid arguments? However, I won't hold my breath. :)jawa
July 11, 2019
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Another GP thought-treat! Yay!!!! KFkairosfocus
July 11, 2019
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Right from the start, GP graciously warns us (curious readers) to fasten our seat belts and get ready for a thrilling ride that should be filled with very insightful but provocative explanations (perhaps a little too technical for some folks):
the cell implements the same functions as complex machines do, and much more.
to do that, you need much greater functional complexity than you need to realize a conventional machine.
dynamic, far from equilibrium systems that can be as successful as a conventional machine, or more, must certainly be incredibly complex and amazing systems, systems that defy everything else that we already know and that we can conceive. They must not only implement their functional purposes, but they must do that by “harnessing” the constantly changing waves of change, of random noise, of improbability. 
Please, note that almost a year ago GP wrote this excellent article: Transcription Regulation: A Miracle Of Engineering (visited 3,545 times and commented 334 times) following another very interesting discussion started by PaV a month earlier: Chromatin Topology: The New (And Latest) Functional Complexity (visited 3,338 times and commented 241 times) Before this discussion goes further, I want to share my delight in seeing this excellent article here today and express my deep gratitude to GP for taking time to write it and for leading the discussion that I expect this fascinating (often mind boggling) topic should provoke.PeterA
July 11, 2019
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To all: Two of the papers I quote in the OP: Considering Abundance, Affinity, and Binding Site Availability in the NF-kB Target Selection Puzzle https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2019.00705/full and: NF-kB Signaling in Macrophages: Dynamics, Crosstalk, and Signal Integration https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2019.00705/full are really part of a research topic: Understanding Immunobiology Through The Specificity of NF-kB https://www.frontiersin.org/research-topics/7955/understanding-immunobiology-through-the-specificity-of-nf-b#articles including 8 very interesting and very recent papers about NF-kB, at Frontiers in Immunology. Here are the titles: Signaling Crosstalk Mechanisms That May Fine-Tune Pathogen-Responsive NF-kB An NF-kB Activity Calculator to Delineate Signaling Crosstalk: Type I and II Interferons Enhance NF?B via Distinct Mechanisms Cellular Specificity of NF-kB Function in the Nervous System Immune Differentiation Regulator p100 Tunes NF-kB Responses to TNF Techniques for Studying Decoding of Single Cell Dynamics NF-kB Signaling in Macrophages: Dynamics, Crosstalk, and Signal Integration (quoted in the OP) Considering Abundance, Affinity, and Binding Site Availability in the NF-kB Target Selection Puzzle (quoted in the OP) Signal Distortion: How Intracellular Pathogens Alter Host Cell Fate by Modulating NF-kB Dynamics You can access all of them from the linked page. Those papers, as a whole, certainly add a lot to the ideas I have expressed in the OP. I will have a look at all of them, and discuss here the most interesting things.gpuccio
July 11, 2019
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Eugene: Thank you for the comment.
the technology used for the machinery of life being orders of magnitude more complex than what our brains seem to be capable of understanding or analyzing.
Yes, that's exactly the point I was trying to make.
What purpose do we serve then to whoever is in possession of the technology we’re made with?
Well, that's certainly a much bigger question, And, under many aspects, a philosophical one. However, we can certainly try to get some clues from the design as we see it. For example, I have said very often that the main driving purpose of biological design, far from being mere survival and fitness, as neo-darwinists believe, seems to be the desire to express ever growingly complex life and, through life, ever growingly complex functions. It should be rather obvious that, if the true purpose of biological beings were to achieve the highest survival and fitness, as neo-darwinists beòlieve, life should have easily stopped at prokaryotes.gpuccio
July 11, 2019
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My biggest concern is not even about the evolution vs. ID. It is about the technology used for the machinery of life being orders of magnitude more complex than what our brains seem to be capable of understanding or analyzing. In other words, we're already way more complex than any machinery we can realistically hope to create. And we already exist (or being simulated, doesn't matter). What purpose do we serve then to whoever is in possession of the technology we're made with?Eugene
July 10, 2019
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