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Craig Crushes Ayala

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Here.

Ayala gives two objections to design:  (1) The design we see is suboptimal; and (2) the cruelty we see in nature precludes an inference to a good designer.

Craig first shows a picture of a dilapidated old East German Trabant, one of the worst cars ever made.  He then shows a picture of a shiny new Mercedes E Class.

Then he makes the following argument.

1.  The Trabant is obviously designed.

2.  The Trabant design is obviously sub-optimal.

3.  Therefore, the fact that a design is sub-optimal does not invalidate the design inference.

Conclusion:  Known designs exhibit various degrees of optimality.  Therefore, there is simply no reason to restrict design inferences only to maximally optimal designs.  If a structure meets Dembski’s criteria for inferring design, that inference is not nullified by the mere possibility that the structure could have been better designed.

Craig then shows a picture of a medieval torture device and makes the following argument.

1.  The torture device is obviously designed.

2.  The designer was obviously not good.

3.  Therefore, the possibility that the designer is not good does not preclude a design inference.*

Conclusion:  The design inference says absolutely nothing about the moral qualities of the designer.

 

*Theologians have answers to the “cruelty” objection, but those answers are not within the province of the ID project as such.

Comments
Joe,
Nope. Ya see the blind watchmaker thesis gets its at bat well before ID. So it stands or falls on its own. As I said you don’t understand science.
Yet the scientific community appears to disagree with you. Otherwise, ID would have widespread support, and it does not.
Nope- it has to start with what needs explaining in the forst place- you lose.
Ah yes, the "biology exists, therefore Intelligent Design" When did the designer create biology Joe? Did it just supply the symbol system or did it do more?
And I have ponied up positive evidence for ID
Publish or perish Joe. Let me know when you get published, there are plenty of ID journals desperate for content, give one of those a go.mphillips
August 17, 2012
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mphillips- if the jury is still out then THAT is what needs to be taught in the science classroom. And wrt to the "theory" of evolution that is ALL that can be said- the jury is still out. So you will be pushing for that in science classrooms, right?Joe
August 17, 2012
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2- No one can produce any evidence that nature didit.
Therefore Intelligent Design.
Wrong again- geez you are dense. To get the design inference you still need positive evidence, ie match the criteria. As I said you are out of your league.Joe
August 17, 2012
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null
So again I ask: is this not evidence of intelligent agents using natural processes to design?
What's your opinion on origin of the symbol system? Evidence there for an unambiguous claim of intelligent design, as Upright seems to say? Or jury still out?mphillips
August 17, 2012
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Joe, by the same token you refute blind watchmaker evolution by providing positive evidence for ID.
Nope. Ya see the blind watchmaker thesis gets its at bat well before ID. So it stands or falls on its own. As I said you don't understand science.
Given that the evidence for blind watchmaker evolution is greater then zero
Nope- it has to start with what needs explaining in the forst place- you lose. And I have ponied up positive evidence for IDJoe
August 17, 2012
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Joe,
2- No one can produce any evidence that nature didit.
Therefore Intelligent Design. Jee, this is easy!mphillips
August 17, 2012
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Joe,
Scientific inferences work via positive evidence and claims. And we have given you plenty of such inferences wrt ID.
When did/does your designer act?mphillips
August 17, 2012
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Joe,
Dense- you refute ID by providing positive evidence for blind watchmaker evolution.
Joe, by the same token you refute blind watchmaker evolution by providing positive evidence for ID. Given that the evidence for blind watchmaker evolution is greater then zero (even you admit evolution has some ability) and the positive evidence for ID is in fact zero (poof!) then ID stands refuted before we even start. So pony up this positive evidence for ID or evolutionistm is not refuted, by your own definitions!mphillips
August 17, 2012
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So sorry, scientific inferences do NOT work that way.
Demonstrate how they do work how. Give me a scientific inference that relates to intelligent design.
Scientific inferences work via positive evidence and claims. And we have given you plenty of such inferences wrt ID.Joe
August 17, 2012
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MP: I need to say one last thing. The blatant disrespect and disregard for duties of care to the truth and fairness that are evident above point straight to the amorality of evolutionary materialism and its proneness to ruthless nihilistic factionalism that Plato Warned against 2350 years ago. Think about that before you play strawman tactics games again. KFkairosfocus
August 17, 2012
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You appear to be fundamentally mistaken. If that was indeed how “it goes in science” then logic suggests that the fact that it “matches the design criteria” would have been accepted by the scientific community (those who follow how “it goes in science) and Intelligent Design would be the accepted explanation.
1- There isn't any such thing a the "scientific community" 2- No one can produce any evidence that nature didit.
Then why don’t you start a scientific project with Kariosfocus or BA77 and detect and study some design?
Already have. Just because you can ignore it and bloviate doesn't mean anything to me. You are just upset because your position has nothing except some alleged "scientific community" that can't support it.Joe
August 17, 2012
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Joe,
Nope, the more we know the better the design inference looks.
Can you give an example of a recent scientific discovery that demonstrates this? Can you give me an example of a scientist who supports your interpretation of that discovery? Preferably one who is not already affiliated with the Disco tute. No? thought not.mphillips
August 17, 2012
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Dense- you refute ID by providing positive evidence for blind watchmaker evolution.
Why?
1- Newton's Four Rules of scientific reasoning 2- Everything written by Behe, Dembski and meyerJoe
August 17, 2012
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Joe,
So sorry, scientific inferences do NOT work that way.
Demonstrate how they do work how. Give me a scientific inference that relates to intelligent design. Show your working!mphillips
August 17, 2012
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Joe,
Dense- you refute ID by providing positive evidence for blind watchmaker evolution.
Why?mphillips
August 17, 2012
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Joe @ 122
The process exists and must have an explanation- right? Your lame position cannot explain it and it matches the design criteria. THAT is how it goes in science.
You appear to be fundamentally mistaken. If that was indeed how "it goes in science" then logic suggests that the fact that it "matches the design criteria" would have been accepted by the scientific community (those who follow how "it goes in science) and Intelligent Design would be the accepted explanation. Yet it's not. So either your understanding of "how it goes in science" is flawed or, well, no. That's it actually.
ID is about the (detection and) study of design in nature.
Then why don't you start a scientific project with Kariosfocus or BA77 and detect and study some design? Why is it up to everybody else to take that responsibility? What's your actual excuse?mphillips
August 17, 2012
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Given that to you evolution is necessity and chance, you have just demonstrated that contrary to your stated claim ID is in fact anti-evolution.
No, evolution is just the change in allele frequency over time/ descent with modification.
If it were not, they how would refuting ID support evolution?
Dense- you refute ID by providing positive evidence for blind watchmaker evolution.Joe
August 17, 2012
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I mean, every time a similar situation has arisen in the past the gap for the designer shrinks as new knowledge is obtained.
Nope, the more we know the better the design inference looks. Also it appears that mphillips requires "absolute" proof- BWAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAA So sorry, scientific inferences do NOT work that way. Also KF said something about DOCUMENTATION going back to 5000+ years- get a grip, geez...Joe
August 17, 2012
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Joe,
No mphillips/ petruska- ID is not anti-evolution. Why do you and david keep equivocating? Obviously you have other issues. And mphillips, you can bloviate against ID all you want but the way to refute it is by actually stepping up and demonstrating necessity and chance can do it.
Given that to you evolution is necessity and chance, you have just demonstrated that contrary to your stated claim ID is in fact anti-evolution. If it were not, they how would refuting ID support evolution? Logic, my dear fellow, simple logic!mphillips
August 17, 2012
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And so on, up and up the thread, I thought you were making a reference to a biological system and that you had actual evidence for design in biology.
I do. I was asking you what kind of specific evidence you were asking for. No need to apologize again for your misunderstanding - it's noted. Just be a little more careful from now on. Not to mention, considering I mentioned humans using evolution to design, I already implied some of that very evidence. I can call on everything from animal husbandry to Monsanto to Craig Venter's work to more. So again I ask: is this not evidence of intelligent agents using natural processes to design? Think long and hard on this one. It's a toughie, and you're not doing well so far.nullasalus
August 17, 2012
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David W Gibson:
So the question one might ask is, IF we assume a Designer, what observation could we make, under what conditions, that would refute this assumption?
We already told you- just demonstrate that necessity and/ or chance can produce/ account for it. THAT is how it goes for all design inferences. Newton's four rules of scientific reasoning make it so.Joe
August 17, 2012
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kariosfocus
Going further, a computer or a control system do not violate rules of Physics, Chem etc. it is the functionally specific config that is intelligently set up and allows them to work in ways unattainable by nature working freely.
The question is where did that intelligent set up come from? You know that. Who is arguing that a computer violates the laws of physics? Citation please! So here we have a given system, the system of symbols, and according to you that is:
unattainable by nature working freely.
Could you please describe all the configurations that nature, working freely, can obtain? No, you can't? Then on what basis are you making that claim? That such systems don't form in the condensation when you take a shower? What? So now we have the system of symbols, unattainable by nature working freely therefore Intelligent Design My bet is on your imperfect knowledge. I mean, every time a similar situation has arisen in the past the gap for the designer shrinks as new knowledge is obtained. Sure, you claim it's getting larger in general here by highlighting "a scientist was surprised by how complex X was" but all that shows you is how bad humans are at prediction. Kariosfocus, please provide two lists. The first is all states obtainable by nature working freely, the second the set of states unattainable by nature working freely. As the confidence you make your claims with leads me to believe you have unified the fundamental forces of physics and have full transcendental knowledge of reality.
BTW, 5,000+ years takes us back to the earliest written records that have survived.
Are you sure you want to go there? You do know that Upright Bipid is arguing that the laws of physics supports an intelligent designer right, and that those laws of physics demonstrably don't support a 6000 year old universe (were you there? No, but some rocks were and they told me all about it). And if your designer acted within the last 6000 years to create all the body plans, where is all that evidence? There should be mountains of it! Literally!mphillips
August 17, 2012
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mphillips, I see you have difficulty in understanding how scientific inferences work. There isn’t any physio-chemical connection between the codon and the amino acid it codes for.
Therefore Intelligent Design.
The process exists and must have an explanation- right? Your lame position cannot explain it and it matches the design criteria. THAT is how it goes in science.
But what I really want to know is when did/does your designer act?
THAT is what science is for. ID is about the (detection and) study of design in nature.
All the time, directing every mutation in real time like you seem to imply with your “mutations are not random” line, or is the “Poof!” moment an injection of information into the GA in every cell that controls and directs mutation?
Nice strawman. I get it, you are upset because your position has nothing.
I know you can’t definitively tell me, but where does the evidence point for you, in what general direction?
In the direction that you are a belligerent equivocator and quite possibly a troll.Joe
August 17, 2012
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MP: Kindly stop erecting and knocking over conveniently distorted strawmen. FYI, in addition to the above [you don't even seem to realise you are mocking a big swath of scientific methods], you need to work through here on to see what I actually say, not what you wish that I said that you pretend is ridiculous. And that game is getting awfully close to Alinskyite rules for radicals propagandistic chicanery. KFkairosfocus
August 17, 2012
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No mphillips/ petruska- ID is not anti-evolution. Why do you and david keep equivocating? Obviously you have other issues. And mphillips, you can bloviate against ID all you want but the way to refute it is by actually stepping up and demonstrating necessity and chance can do it. David W Gibson baldly asserts it has been done but cabnnot provide any reference.
Or Joe, who believes that each and every mutation is guided. That’s some day job right there for the designer! Do you think it sub-contracts Joe? Must be tiny spaceships, no?
Nope, I never said nor implied random mutations do not occur. And the designer needn't be present to guide mutations- that is what genetic programming is for.
So, without a suspension of the laws of physics ID can’t even get out of the starting gate.
Wrong again, as usual. However your position can't even explain those laws of physics. Behe's point, btw, is that even if "poof" was the mechanism, so what? Science only cares about reality- and if reality says "poof" did it then science has to deal with that.Joe
August 17, 2012
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Joe,
There isn’t any physio-chemical connection between the codon and the amino acid it codes for.
Therefore Intelligent Design. Yes, I get that. But what I really want to know is when did/does your designer act? All the time, directing every mutation in real time like you seem to imply with your "mutations are not random" line, or is the "Poof!" moment an injection of information into the GA in every cell that controls and directs mutation? What is is Joe? When does you designer act? Did it just create a connection between the codon and the amino acid it codes for and then get back in it's spaceship? Or did it not need a spaceship at all? I know you can't definitively tell me, but where does the evidence point for you, in what general direction?mphillips
August 17, 2012
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DWG: I notice, you do not identify your observed case. Going further, a computer or a control system do not violate rules of Physics, Chem etc. it is the functionally specific config that is intelligently set up and allows them to work in ways unattainable by nature working freely. Indeed Engg -- per official defn -- uses forces and materials of nature, economically and skillfully, to produce objects, systems and processes for the benefit of humanity. I don't have time to take on a further point by point correction. I just note that there is something systematically erroneous in what I had to correct already, and it evidently continues. KF KFkairosfocus
August 17, 2012
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Joe @ 78
However no one ever says how they evolved in the first place.
Therefore Intelligent Design.mphillips
August 17, 2012
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kariosfocus
And, until such dFSCI’s origin has been shown, you have no valid causal account of the origin of same.
Presumably you can demonstrate the origin of the "dFSCI" in the cell? If not then likewise you also have no valid causal account of the origin of same. Oh, that's right, you do have a causal origin, laughable as it may be. A cell has dFSCI. People design things. Billions of things. Things have dFSCI. Therefore biology is designed. And you call that an explanation of the origin of the information in the cell? No wonder you don't feel any need to publish. You already feel you know all the answers. Except of course how much actual dFSCI is in the cell. You don't know that, except you can do a bit of math to say it must be >500 therefore design. Yet, as I've just noted, you've and ID have yet to proceed beyond the "Poof!" stage. There's nothing wrong with that, every belief system is going to have it's ups and downs. Just take it slow at this early stage in the game.mphillips
August 17, 2012
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Null
Every single instance of human designers using natural processes and evolution to design. How specific would you like me to be? Should I list every instance of, say… humans using erosion towards an end?
My apologies! Given this:
Sure, it’s entirely possible – and backed by a considerable amount of evidence – that the sort of system you describe could also be the work of an intelligent designer.
And that this was what you were responding to (DWG):
The proposal is set forward (and quite exhaustively tested) that complex feedback processes driven by very real directing constraints can produce similar entailments.
And so on, up and up the thread, I thought you were making a reference to a biological system and that you had actual evidence for design in biology. Again, my apologies.mphillips
August 17, 2012
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