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Craig Crushes Ayala

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Here.

Ayala gives two objections to design:  (1) The design we see is suboptimal; and (2) the cruelty we see in nature precludes an inference to a good designer.

Craig first shows a picture of a dilapidated old East German Trabant, one of the worst cars ever made.  He then shows a picture of a shiny new Mercedes E Class.

Then he makes the following argument.

1.  The Trabant is obviously designed.

2.  The Trabant design is obviously sub-optimal.

3.  Therefore, the fact that a design is sub-optimal does not invalidate the design inference.

Conclusion:  Known designs exhibit various degrees of optimality.  Therefore, there is simply no reason to restrict design inferences only to maximally optimal designs.  If a structure meets Dembski’s criteria for inferring design, that inference is not nullified by the mere possibility that the structure could have been better designed.

Craig then shows a picture of a medieval torture device and makes the following argument.

1.  The torture device is obviously designed.

2.  The designer was obviously not good.

3.  Therefore, the possibility that the designer is not good does not preclude a design inference.*

Conclusion:  The design inference says absolutely nothing about the moral qualities of the designer.

 

*Theologians have answers to the “cruelty” objection, but those answers are not within the province of the ID project as such.

Comments
Upright, May I ask a few questions? 1. In doing translation, does matter do anything that doesn’t follow known rules of chemistry? 2. Does mutation (all two dozen known types) violate any known rules of physical chemistry? 3. Does the fact that some variants resulting from mutation hae differential reproductive success — for whatever reason — violate any rules of physics or chemistry? 4. What specifically in the history of life violates the rules of physics and chemistry? 5. If there are areas in the history of life that remain unknown, which is the more probable explanation: that the history follows known chemical and physical rules, or that they violate known rules. In other words, is there an incident in the history of life that is best explained by magic? Not mine, but it would clarify the issues you raise and their context I think.mphillips
August 15, 2012
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Upright BiPed, Do you mean the origin of life?mphillips
August 15, 2012
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So, Joe, if the questions are “evolved from what?” and “how did it evolve?” what's your answer to those questions? Or is that what science is for, perhaps, to find out answers to those questions? What happens if you don't like the answers? So, Joe, how do you explain the unevolvable co-ordination between parasite and host? Or do you explain it by ignoring it?mphillips
August 15, 2012
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mphillips, There are things evolution cannot do, like cause things to happen before it even exists.Upright BiPed
August 15, 2012
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mphillips- Intelligent Design is NOT anti-evolutionJoe
August 15, 2012
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Based on the video, Craig seems to concede that "designs" in nature may reasonably be considered "obviously sub-optimal" and "obviously not good." On the other side, it's not obvious at all that anything in nature is designed in the way that people design objects. At least, I have not found the arguments from prominent ID-ists to be especially compelling w/r/t the necessity of a designer. So, where are we? We have a somewhat interesting hypothesis that things in nature were designed, and sometimes poorly designed. And we have a more parsimonious hypothesis that neither posits nor requires a designer (and following ID proponents, I don't consider the non-designer to be "God."). The video does not give Ayala's actual objections, but I guess he (or she?) was making the specific argument that sub-optimal design and cruelty in nature seem inconsistent with an all-good, all-knowing, all-powerful designer. Craig thus save "design" at the cost of one conception of the designer.LarTanner
August 15, 2012
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Eric,
Oh, brother. After all this time, we’re still getting this level of objection to design. Talk about embarrassing.
Out of interest, how do you square the "parasite behavior is too complex to have evolved" with the circle of "cruelty we see in nature" etc etc. Did the parasite behavior evolve? If so, seems evolution can do quite alot after all. If it did not, well, where does that leave a "good" designer?mphillips
August 15, 2012
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lpadron,
And I’ve no idea what is meant by “cruelty in nature”. Cruel by what standard? Maybe you can help with this.
One of the examples often cited is the Parasitoid wasp or similar, for example:
On the night before the parasites kill their host, events take a bizarre turn. Through some unknown mechanism, the larvae compel their host spider to build a web that is very different from that it has always constructed before. Instead of a flat, round web, the spider builds a stout, reinforced platform which is much smaller. Once the new web is complete, the larvae kill their host, and cocoon themselves on the structure. It is ideal for the task, being resistant to wind and rain, and safe from the ants that inhabit the forest floor.
http://www.damninteresting.com/mind-controlling-wasps-and-zombie-spiders/ Obviously, if anything is designed in life according to ID, this is. The co-ordination between parasite and host is no doubt unevolvable, according to ID. Hence this behavior, and other rather more gruesome besides is “cruelty in nature”mphillips
August 15, 2012
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Guys, Nick is just pulling your chain. He knows that his comment is false, absurd, and logically problematic. He's just trying to have a little fun. Wait . . . He does know, right . . . ? Surely after all these years of participating in the debate he can't be that utterly clueless can he . . . ? Crickets . . .Eric Anderson
August 15, 2012
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"Ayala gives two objections to design: (1) The design we see is suboptimal; and (2) the cruelty we see in nature precludes an inference to a good designer." Oh, brother. After all this time, we're still getting this level of objection to design. Talk about embarrassing.Eric Anderson
August 15, 2012
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NickMatzke: This would be relevant if ID people thought the designs in biology were made by dumb or nasty humans. But you guys think a perfect, good God is the designer.
You obviously are not up to date on the state of the theology of the Judea-Christian world. Jewish and Christian theology posit that this world is in some sense cursed and not running at optimum. However, the designed things that remain overwhelmingly testified to a designer. Are you ignorant or just trying to come off that way?CentralScrutinizer
August 15, 2012
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@NickMatzke, One thing you can be sure of --- when lots of people quickly respond to you, you have made a fool of yourself. The argument by Craig is extremely relevant. He shows that Ayala is not telling the truth in his objections. They are not anti-design arguments. As far as sub-optimal or evil designs, this is another failure. It is a religious, moral argument, not a scientific one. Once you acknowledge that it is a moral argument you have to find a basis for that morality. The terms "optimization" or "good" and "evil" can only be done in the context of what purpose the designs are trying to serve. If God is trying to demonstrate in nature the inadequacy of the natural man, and the terrible effect of sin on the natural world, then a perfect design which removed all suffering would be in fact sub-optimal. Of course I don't expect you to be able to understand or agree this. Just realize your quick response was not the most erudite of things to say.JDH
August 15, 2012
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With respect to those answering Nick, he is yanking your chain. He does not comment on merits, but demonstrates his contempt for ID by consistently making banal theological objections. If he were to respond otherwise, he would tacitly be confessing the relevance of ID, which he will not do. Nick is poking an ant hill with a stick for amusement. Challenge him to a public debate. Anything else, in my humble opinion, will be interpreted as rings in a circus. That said, the posted objections to his comment are all relevant and interesting, but accomplish little in challenging him directly.Chance Ratcliff
August 15, 2012
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Nick Matzke: "But you guys think a perfect, good God is the designer." Well if God is to be the ONLY perfect being, it stands to reason He will not make something as perfect as himsef, ergo, by definition, every design will be less than perfect, ergo your theological argument is unsound, not to mention, that is a theological argument, not a scientific one! Or alternatively, on what grounds logically do you claim the designer will create only perfect designs. One could claim, God would want no rival, so God create truly "perfect" designs is implausible on those grounds. In fact, something is to be said for God making humans imperfect so that they will acknowledge their need of him. Thanks for visiting, and you raise a reasonable objection, but I think it doesn't have as much strength as you think. Darwin made the same "bad design" argument as you did, and both of you make suspect theological objections to scientific questions.scordova
August 15, 2012
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Seqenenre- It means not all IDists accept that God is the designer.Joe
August 15, 2012
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Nick Matzke: This would be relevant if ID people thought the designs in biology were made by dumb or nasty humans. But you guys think a perfect, good God is the designer. Why do you immediately turn this into a theological discussion? Let me give you a theological rebuttal: We know that Devil has corrupted human nature. We know that the Devil can afflict people with illnesses (the Gospels). We know that God promises a "new heavens and a new earth." We know that this promise also includes "incorruptible bodies." We know that the Devil will have no part of these "new heavens and new earth." So, Nick, how do we know that these 'defective' designs are the result of the Devil's powers? So, you see, Nick, we can either argue this theologically, or scientifically. But your immediate choice is to confound the scientific with the theological. So did Darwin. Take away the theological argument, and Darwin stands on nothing. Just ask Cornelius Hunter.PaV
August 15, 2012
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Nick Matzke:
This would be relevant if ID people thought the designs in biology were made by dumb or nasty humans. But you guys think a perfect, good God is the designer.
Two points here: 1. While it does seem that many in the "mainstream" ID community thinks that a god was behind the design of life, not all ID proponents think this. This renders your objection invalid for the latter. 2. If flawed design is an argument against ID, as Ayala suggests, then rational design is evidence in favor of ID. There is a major contradiction in the arguments of both sides: ID proponents often point to instances of rational design and argue that this is evidence for ID, while ignoring the instances of poor design. On the other hand, the 'Darwinian side' likes to bring up cases of bad design and argue that this offers a counterpoint to ID, all the while ignoring the instances of rational design. Solution: Acknowledge that if a biological system is inherently flawed in its design, then it is not likely to be the product of intelligent design, while biological systems that display properties of rational design show the hallmarks of intelligent design.Genomicus
August 15, 2012
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"But you guys think a perfect, good God is the designer." And all negros like fried chicken. Right, Nick? Don't be ashamed of your bigotry and in-group/out-group dehumanizing tactics. It's not your fault as you're a slave to the millions of years of cannibalistic evolutionary programming of your neurons. You are after all, just a puppet. A mere victim of Calvinism for chimpanzees.Maus
August 15, 2012
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Mr. Matzke, I'll chalk up the "you guys think a perfect, good God is the designer" part to hasty mashing of the "post comment" button or or tongue in cheek baiting on your part . Everyone knows you're smarter and more well informed than that. But even if true I wonder if suboptimal design really is a problem. After all, optimal design may not have been the intent. It seems to me that a perfect designer is not necessarily obligated to design perfectly every time or even most of the time. How does Ayala define or measure "suboptimal" I wonder. And I've no idea what is meant by "cruelty in nature". Cruel by what standard? Maybe you can help with this.lpadron
August 15, 2012
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There is also the problem that a multi-function system is never optimized for all of its functions. The Boeing 737 has had 2 separate replacements designed by Boeing and yet the replacements went out of production and the 737 is the most successful airlner ever produced. There is some discussion about renaming the next upgrade of the 737 as a different model number (the engines and avionics keep getting modernized), but it would still be fundamentally a 737. Other airliners can carry more passengers, have higher cruising speeds, and may have shorter takeoff or landing distances. But the 737 is a very good compromise between conflicting functional requirements. Humans are the most successful mammals that have ever existed. We have more global body mass than any other large mammals, and we're continuing to expand into new territory. We can live year round inside the Arctic Circle and live at the Equator. The fact that cheetahs are faster (over short distances) or that whales can hold their breath longer under water doesn't make either of them more successful in a general purpose competition.mahuna
August 15, 2012
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I am somewhat puzzled. When Joe states: "..., even if God were the designer and God was perfect, ..." (in reply nr 2) does that mean that he thinks that it is possible that the designer designed (the Christian) God?Seqenenre
August 15, 2012
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This would be relevant if ID people thought the designs in biology were made by dumb or nasty humans. But you guys think a perfect, good God is the designer.
So, so long as ID is really neutral with respect to the designer's identity - as all major ID proponents claim - Ayala's objection fails? Thanks for the concession, Nick. ;) You should realize that Craig's goal, and the goal of many philosophical arguments for God, is to get to the inference of a designer first. Disputes over particular aspects of that designer's nature come second (Is He Wholly Good, etc). But again, thank you for conceding that Ayala got slaughtered on this.nullasalus
August 15, 2012
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NickMatzke humps another strawman. BTW Nick, even if God were the designer and God was perfect, it doesn't follow that the design had to be perfect nor that even if it started out perfect that it had to remain that way. :roll: BTW do you have a mathematically rigorous definition for "perfect"?Joe
August 15, 2012
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This would be relevant if ID people thought the designs in biology were made by dumb or nasty humans. But you guys think a perfect, good God is the designer.NickMatzke_UD
August 15, 2012
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