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Darwin skeptic focuses on the repeated evolution of the camera eye

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The Mystery of Evolutionary Mechanisms

Robert F. Shedinger, religion prof at Luther College in Iowa and author of The Mystery of Evolutionary Mechanisms: Darwinian Biology’s Grand Narrative of Triumph and the Subversion of Religion, offered a series of reflective posts at ENST, analyzing a Darwinian biology text. His last one focused on the eye:

In my previous post analyzing Strickberger’s Evolution, a prominent textbook by Brian K. Hall and Benedikt Hallgrimsson, I focused on the phenomenon of convergent evolution. One of the most amazing examples of convergence is the repeated evolution of the camera eye. I will begin this final post by considering Strickberger’s treatment of eye evolution along with comments on a few other problematic aspects of the textbook.

On eye evolution, Hall and Hallgrimsson write:

“As explained by the process of convergent evolution, the structural similarity of squid and vertebrate eyes does not come from an ancestral visual structure in a recent common ancestor of mollusks and vertebrates, but rather from convergent evolution as similar selective pressures led to similar organs that enhance visual acuity. Such morphological convergences may have arisen independently in numerous other animal lineages subject to similar selective visual pressures. “

But how could a similar series of mutations of the sort necessary to produce similarly structured eyes in different lineages occur so many times independently if the mutations are randomly produced? Hall and Hallgrimsson are not bothered by this question, but in order to convince the reader that such a thing is possible, they appeal to the well-known work of Dan-Eric Nilsson and Susanne Pelger.

Robert F. Shedinger, “Squeezing Out the Mystery: Final Comments on Strickberger’s Evolution” at Evolution News and Science Today: (August 19, 2020)

But the textbook authors ignore the caveats, he tells us. He concludes,

In this post and the five that preceded it I have tried to highlight some of the more egregious ways Strickberger’s Evolution fundamentally distorts the science of evolutionary biology in service to its real intention to indoctrinate students into the Darwinian worldview. Clearly this textbook is not alone. Many of the errors and distortions outlined in this series of posts could be found in many other evolutionary biology textbooks.

Robert F. Shedinger, “Squeezing Out the Mystery: Final Comments on Strickberger’s Evolution” at Evolution News and Science Today: (August 19, 2020)

Here’s a question: How many people would study biology with interest if we took the Darwin out of it and said, learn what the natural world of life is like without all these theories of how it came to be that way? Who would still be interested?

See also: Darwin skeptic Robert Shedinger calls out Paul Davies

Comments
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Since we don’t seem to be able to carry on any kind of constructive conversation anymore
Having a "constructive" conversation would require the participants to adhere to having a forthright and honest engagement, wouldn't you agree? I personally can't imagine it being otherwise. Surely you are not suggesting that a "constructive" conversation needn't entail a sense of honesty among the participants, are you? I seriously doubt that. What I believe instead is that a fatal flaw has been demonstrated in your attack on design, and that you do not want to face that fact, and thus, you want me to shut up about it. I would be happy to shut up about it except that you also want to stay here, jumping from thread to thread, and continue your attack on ID evidence as if the fatal flaw in your reasoning had not been demonstrated. It is a fact -- clearly recorded in your own words on this blog in July -- that you affirm the presence of semiotic content (i.e. the symbolic encoding of information in a medium) as an unambiguous inferenced to an unknown intelligence. So why do you suddenly impose a double standard when ID proponents point to well-documented science and history to demonstrate that exact phenomenon at the origin of life? In July you were asked HOW you would clearly determine that you in fact had received a signal from an unknown intelligence (i.e. SETI) and you did not hesitate in your answer:
JVL: A signal that’s very clearly NOT produced by unguided processes. A signal which, after inspection, was shown to have compressed data.
So why the double standard JVL? Why the campaign to paint me as unreasonable for asking the question? Why the transparent nonsense about not being able to have a "constructive" conversation? Why the pretense about this being a disagreement between us and not about the incontrovertible double standard you apply to evidence? Why do you suddenly move the goalpost in the face of documented prediction and experimental result? If you consider your reasoning to be so exemplary, why are these nauseous deceptions required to maintain it? Why can we not ask of you the same level of honesty that you ask of others?Upright BiPed
September 4, 2020
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LOL, ET! -QQuerius
September 4, 2020
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How can a rabbit fossil in the Precambrian falsify something that can't even account for rabbits? Do tellET
September 4, 2020
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JVL:
So you don’t want to address my question.
I have addressed many of your questions. You refuse to address mine. The only way blind and mindless processes are responsible for the diversity of life is to show they also produced living organisms. You can't No one can. It didn't happen. It is impossible. That said, the paper "Waiting for TWO Mutations" refutes cumulative selection, ala Dawkins. Cumulative selection was unguided evolution's only hope.
If, in fact, that is your view then what evidence can your present that a large number of beneficial mutations are determined (via built-in programming) or guided?
Besides what Dr. Spetner wrote about in TWO books? Besides what I have already stated? And it has nothing to do with "beneficial" mutations. Sickle-cell anemia can be beneficial, yet it is clearly detrimental. You need something that can produce multi-protein functional complexes.ET
September 4, 2020
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JVL @170,
There’s the famous comment about finding a rabbit fossil in a Cambrian layer, which is good. I’d say clear, physical evidence of a designer around at whatever time ID proposes doing whatever ID proposes would certainly get my attention and make me reconsider things.
That was J.B.S. Haldane, who also posed "Haldane's Dilemma," a hypothetical speed limit on the rate of beneficial evolution that caused so much consternation among Darwinists until several people came up with complex counter-hypothetical explanations and everyone was able to breathe a sigh of relief and go back to ignoring it. So, does it have to be bunnies? For example, would you settle for finding pollen from flowering plants, vascular wood, and six-legged, composite-eyed insects in the Precambrian? Or how about finding ducks, squirrels, platypus, beaver-like and badger-like animals, bees, cockroaches, frogs and pine trees in the same strata that dinosaurs are found? I didn't think so. -QQuerius
September 4, 2020
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ET: There still isn’t any scientifically viable alternative to ID. JVL will disagree but he will never say what that alternative is or how it is scientific. So you don't want to address my question. Fair enough, I can't force you. I think I know what you would say if you chose to play along. I think you'd say that it cannot be shown that all the variation we observe in life on earth is due to unguided mutations. I think you'd say that there is no evidence that all the significant and important mutations were random events. Is that correct? If, in fact, that is your view then what evidence can your present that a large number of beneficial mutations are determined (via built-in programming) or guided?JVL
September 4, 2020
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Upright Biped: Oh goodness. JVL stammers forward from his silence, not to man up on the grotesque logical fallacies in his position (#144) nor his willingness to drain them of every drop of their usefulness to him, but to showcase his great personal discipline and a burning desire to carry forward in constructive dialogue. Since we don't seem to be able to carry on any kind of constructive conversation anymore I'll just just leave your vitriol on the table if that's okay with you. There’s our hero, embossed in open-minded reason, with a cadre of French horns playing in the background. They do have a lovely sound.JVL
September 4, 2020
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Querius: For my part, I’d like to see an updated version of the 1952 Miller-Urey experiment that demonstrates spontaneous generation of living forms. That would be incredible evidence! How far along are you thinking? If it could be showed that something like yeast could come about without guidance would that be enough? Another experiment might subject protozoans to enough ionizing radiation and mutagens that could compress the the mutation rate of millions of years of evolution into just a few years and demonstrate the production of novel structures and organelles through random mutation. So, a substantial increase in the mutation rate and . . . .JVL
September 4, 2020
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PaV: Along the lines of your recent discussion with Querius: I have two questions, asked in a straightforward way: 1) Do you consider (Darwinian) evolutionary theory to be falsifiable? Yes. 2) What would falsify it? Several things. There's the famous comment about finding a rabbit fossil in a Cambrian layer, which is good. I'd say clear, physical evidence of a designer around at whatever time ID proposes doing whatever ID proposes would certainly get my attention and make me reconsider things. As to “falsifying” ID thinking, here’s what would change my mind: (1) If it were discovered that significant taxonomical changes–between Orders, e.g., could be traced through small phenotypic changes in the fossil record. That's going to be difficult to do but okay. (2) If small changes in a species could be traced out in time (e.g., Lenski’s bacterial lineages) which begin to transform the innate character of the species. So, clear genomic evidence? (3) If computers could be used in such a way that a simple program could produce a more complex program via strictly non-random changes. I wouldn't find that convincing myself but okay. Thanks for answering honestly and clearly.JVL
September 4, 2020
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There still isn't any scientifically viable alternative to ID. JVL will disagree but he will never say what that alternative is or how it is scientific.ET
September 4, 2020
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I found myself getting angry and frustrated and felt that I was allowing my responses to become more cynical and mean. So I decided to pause for a bit.
Oh goodness. JVL stammers forward from his silence, not to man up on the grotesque logical fallacies in his position (#144) nor his willingness to drain them of every drop of their usefulness to him, but to showcase his great personal discipline and a burning desire to carry forward in constructive dialogue.
if and when the ID community comes up with more evidence for their case
There's our hero, embossed in open-minded reason, with a cadre of French horns playing in the background.Upright BiPed
September 3, 2020
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For my part, I'd like to see an updated version of the 1952 Miller-Urey experiment that demonstrates spontaneous generation of living forms. Here's a link to a discussion concerning the experiment: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2011/03/long-neglected-experiment-gives-new-clues-origin-life Another experiment might subject protozoans to enough ionizing radiation and mutagens that could compress the the mutation rate of millions of years of evolution into just a few years and demonstrate the production of novel structures and organelles through random mutation. If either of these experiments were successful, I'd say that it would provide a very strong case against intelligent design, if not outright falsifying it. -QQuerius
September 3, 2020
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JVL: Along the lines of your recent discussion with Querius: I have two questions, asked in a straightforward way: 1) Do you consider (Darwinian) evolutionary theory to be falsifiable? 2) What would falsify it? As to "falsifying" ID thinking, here's what would change my mind: (1) If it were discovered that significant taxonomical changes--between Orders, e.g., could be traced through small phenotypic changes in the fossil record. (2) If small changes in a species could be traced out in time (e.g., Lenski's bacterial lineages) which begin to transform the innate character of the species. (3) If computers could be used in such a way that a simple program could produce a more complex program via strictly non-random changes. If any of these could honestly and clearly be demonstrated, then I would be open to Darwinian thinking.PaV
September 3, 2020
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Ok, JVL, but please do consider getting a copy of Evolution 2.0 and reading it. I think it will open your eyes to some really interesting possibilities. I'd be interested in your reactions to the additional mechanisms described. Again, these are well documented. After you read it, I think there will be some interesting questions to address. -QQuerius
September 3, 2020
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Querius: Let me suggest that your frustration doesn’t stem so much from an impasse as much as a challenge to communicate what you’re convinced must be true. I’d imagine that you might feel like you can’t convince a bunch of well-informed flat-earth advocates. That is not the issue that is causing my consternation and frustration leading to anger and cynicism. I don't get a sense that most of the contributors here have views that are falsifiable. All I hear is that I am wrong, I am delusional, my viewpoint is self refuting. I admit that I feel pretty strongly that purely unguided processes are adequate for explaing the origin and development of life on earth. BUT, I have also said, that if and when the ID community comes up with more evidence for their case I will take that into account and reconsider. Which is what any evidence driven person should do: re-evaluate when there is new data. Clearly. So, I would like to know: which of the contributors here have views about the origin and development of living systems on this planet that are falsifiable. There is no point in me annoying you with an argument if it's not going to register. I'm happy to shut up for a while and just listen. Thank you.JVL
September 3, 2020
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JVL, I'm sorry to hear that you're getting angry and frustrated and I'm glad you wanted to step back from being cynical and mean. Let me suggest that your frustration doesn't stem so much from an impasse as much as a challenge to communicate what you're convinced must be true. I'd imagine that you might feel like you can't convince a bunch of well-informed flat-earth advocates. So please allow me to recommend an action that will still support your evolutionary paradigm, but simply demonstrate that there are scientifically accepted alternatives within evolution that don't depend exclusively on random mutation. I say this with all sincerity. There's an interesting book called Evolution 2.0 by Perry Marshall and costs under $14 US. https://www.amazon.com/Evolution-2-0-Breaking-Deadlock-Between/dp/1944648755/ He suggests that evolution has five or six tools and that while random mutation is one of them, it's the least effective one. None of these genetic tools are theoretical. I think it will give you a stronger perspective and you'll become less dependent solely on random mutation, which is such a weak explanation. Kindly, -QQuerius
September 3, 2020
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Querius: Apparently, JVL has fled the thread. ???? I found myself getting angry and frustrated and felt that I was allowing my responses to become more cynical and mean. So I decided to pause for a bit. Also, I'm not sure anyone was saying anything much different. Seems like we frequently end up at the same impasse. .JVL
September 3, 2020
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Apparently, JVL has fled the thread. ;-)Querius
September 2, 2020
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TF@159: No, he tried to do that, but it didn't work.PaV
August 31, 2020
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PaV
Have you looked at, or read, his (Dawkins) books?
Isn't he the man that hires monkeys to write his books?Truthfreedom
August 31, 2020
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156 Querius
Darwinian Artist: It is now midnight in the mountain meadow. My painting has won numerous accolades and awards from the most prestigious artists and galleries and is worth millions.
... until a child blurts out that the emperor is wearing nothing at all. Truthfreedom
August 31, 2020
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JVL@124: We know that didn’t happen. Why are you arguing about things you know did not happen? You don't "know" this happened. I threw out a possibility and you immediately dismiss it. You "presume" it didn't happen. And why? Because you intuitively know that the only way to generate intelligence on the scale we're treating is through human intelligence. You see the effects and you "presume" intelligence. ID makes the same presumption as you are doing with OS 1.0 to OS 2.0 conversion. Sigh. You look at DNA and think: that looks like the work of a mind. Tell me, JVL, what's the difference between the printout of the OS code and that of the genome using binary code? Do you see any difference? What about the huge differences that are seen from one genome (operating system printout) to another genome (another operating system printout)? Why do you presume the one is the work of human intelligence and then dismiss completely that the difference in the other, the genomes, is NOT the work of some sort of intelligence? You would do well to think this over a bit. Uh huh. I don’t agree. I don't know how you can disagree with my statement concerning Dawkins. This is exactly what he does: he takes independent events and treats them as dependent events, adding instead of multiplying all the steps that are needed in moving from one form of life to another. Have you looked at, or read, his books?PaV
August 31, 2020
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Truthfreedom @154,
It is so “bad” when no-teleology (disorder) enters the stage that DNA not copying itself verbatim , is called a “mistake”.
No, a transcription error is not a mistake, it's a wonderful opportunity! LOL Once when I saw a typo on the web page of a staunch Darwinist, I responded with feedback that this typo was an exciting new change that will ultimately lead to a bold new idea! Imagine how disappointing it was when he simply fixed the typo. Darwinian Artist: This is a marvelous painting of a cow eating grass in a mountain meadow. Me: Where's the grass? Darwinian Artist: The cow has eaten it. Me: So, where's the cow? Darwinian Artist: The cow left after eating the grass. Me: And the mountain meadow? Darwinian Artist: It is now midnight in the mountain meadow. My painting has won numerous accolades and awards from the most prestigious artists and galleries and is worth millions. -QQuerius
August 31, 2020
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152 Kairosfocus
We further freely infer that the resistance to a patently strong conclusion is due to ideology and ideological captivity of key institutions, captivity to a priori evolutionary materialism. The game is over. KF
Yes, it is. And they know it. Atheistic "evolutionism" is false (a self-refuting and therefore not true worldview). We should not concede another inch. They have caused society an enormous amount of harm.Truthfreedom
August 31, 2020
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152 Kairosfocus
We freely note, alphanumeric, string code is linguistic and algorithms are goal directed and procedurally rational, thus we see strong signatures of design in the cell.
They (atheists/ evos) implicitly acknowledge that there is order in nature (the cell). It is so "bad" when no-teleology (disorder) enters the stage that DNA not copying itself verbatim , is called a "mistake". And it is so bad, that then an ethereal process ( natural selection ) has to appear to "counteract" such disorder (replication "errors"). Because the human mind is inherently geared towards order. And disorder gives the humand mind an unbearable amount of discomfort (logic "knows" that it can not be violated). And logic does not calibrate itself. It needs an external source of calibration.Truthfreedom
August 31, 2020
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TF, Kastrup has a serious point. That's why a per aspect design inference filter has necessity and/or chance as defaults, with plausible reasons to infer design on reliable signs. Inference to best current explanation, of course, is the secret weapon of scientific and particularly causal explanation. I observe, JVL has no explanation with good empirical warrant, on how blind chance and/or mechanical necessity could account for the alphanumeric, complex, algorithmic code and associated execution machinery of the cell. Appeal to statistical miracles not plausibly observable on gamut of sol system or observable cosmos -- 500 - 1,000 bits -- is NOT a good explanation. The genome starts at about 100 kbits. KFkairosfocus
August 31, 2020
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JVL, I do not need to prove myself or ES (or others with relevant background in Math, Sci and Tech or even phil) to you. However, it is readily noted that you have no answer to the implied blind origin of alphanumeric, algorithmic code and associated molecular nanotech execution machinery in the heart of the cell. We freely note, alphanumeric, string code is linguistic and algorithms are goal directed and procedurally rational, thus we see strong signatures of design in the cell. A goodly number of Nobel prizes were won for the relevant work, this was not demonstrated in a corner. We further freely infer that the resistance to a patently strong conclusion is due to ideology and ideological captivity of key institutions, captivity to a priori evolutionary materialism. The game is over. KFkairosfocus
August 31, 2020
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JVL @133, Your unsupported assertions don't refute anything. 1. What evidence can you produce that the human genome is not programmed to reproduce with variations? 2. What evidence can you produce that that variation is not built into live, in-the-world, genomes? Hint: look up epigenetics. 3. What evidence can you produce that real world genomes live and reproduce with variation in undesigned systems? Have you ever tried programming a simulated ecosystem and do you know what common results emerges? 4. What evidence can you produce that, real-world genomes are not designed to exploit particular aspects of their environment? Hint think of viral activity within a cellular environment. 5. What makes you think that computer viruses do not create whole new classes or families of viruses? They are indeed beginning to do so. 6. Far from being an analogy, what evidence can you produce that real-world viruses cannot possibly be programmed? All your assertions seem to be based on a childlike faith in what you're sure to be immutable facts. You might want to consider studying the role of information in quantum physics and its impact on our conceptions of reality to shake up your faith a little and consider evidence contrary to your opinions. Just sayin' . . . -QQuerius
August 30, 2020
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122 JVL
Truthfreedom: How would you design an experiment/s to include all mutations since the beginning of life? JVL : Couldn’t be done. Obviously.
Then Dr. Bernardo Kastrup is right. And you dismissed him because "he is not a biologist" (which he does not pretend to be. Again, "randomness" is a part of epistemology/ philosophy).
“The very notion of ‘randomness’ is already loaded and ambiguous to begin with: although it is defined as the absence of discernible patterns, theoretically any pattern can be produced by a truly random process; the associated probability may be vanishingly small, but it isn’t zero. So the claim that a natural process is random not only amounts to little more than an acknowledgement of causal ignorance, it can also be construed so as to be unfalsifiable”.
https://www.bernardokastrup.com/2019/08/evolution-is-true-but-are-mutations.html?m=1Truthfreedom
August 30, 2020
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. Hello Vivid. Thank you. You already know how much I appreciate you as well. Thank you for all that you have contributed here over many moons.Upright BiPed
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