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Darwin skeptic focuses on the repeated evolution of the camera eye

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The Mystery of Evolutionary Mechanisms

Robert F. Shedinger, religion prof at Luther College in Iowa and author of The Mystery of Evolutionary Mechanisms: Darwinian Biology’s Grand Narrative of Triumph and the Subversion of Religion, offered a series of reflective posts at ENST, analyzing a Darwinian biology text. His last one focused on the eye:

In my previous post analyzing Strickberger’s Evolution, a prominent textbook by Brian K. Hall and Benedikt Hallgrimsson, I focused on the phenomenon of convergent evolution. One of the most amazing examples of convergence is the repeated evolution of the camera eye. I will begin this final post by considering Strickberger’s treatment of eye evolution along with comments on a few other problematic aspects of the textbook.

On eye evolution, Hall and Hallgrimsson write:

“As explained by the process of convergent evolution, the structural similarity of squid and vertebrate eyes does not come from an ancestral visual structure in a recent common ancestor of mollusks and vertebrates, but rather from convergent evolution as similar selective pressures led to similar organs that enhance visual acuity. Such morphological convergences may have arisen independently in numerous other animal lineages subject to similar selective visual pressures. “

But how could a similar series of mutations of the sort necessary to produce similarly structured eyes in different lineages occur so many times independently if the mutations are randomly produced? Hall and Hallgrimsson are not bothered by this question, but in order to convince the reader that such a thing is possible, they appeal to the well-known work of Dan-Eric Nilsson and Susanne Pelger.

Robert F. Shedinger, “Squeezing Out the Mystery: Final Comments on Strickberger’s Evolution” at Evolution News and Science Today: (August 19, 2020)

But the textbook authors ignore the caveats, he tells us. He concludes,

In this post and the five that preceded it I have tried to highlight some of the more egregious ways Strickberger’s Evolution fundamentally distorts the science of evolutionary biology in service to its real intention to indoctrinate students into the Darwinian worldview. Clearly this textbook is not alone. Many of the errors and distortions outlined in this series of posts could be found in many other evolutionary biology textbooks.

Robert F. Shedinger, “Squeezing Out the Mystery: Final Comments on Strickberger’s Evolution” at Evolution News and Science Today: (August 19, 2020)

Here’s a question: How many people would study biology with interest if we took the Darwin out of it and said, learn what the natural world of life is like without all these theories of how it came to be that way? Who would still be interested?

See also: Darwin skeptic Robert Shedinger calls out Paul Davies

Comments
JVL@95:
I did not ‘assume’ some intelligent agent, I know it was human beings who coded the Mac OS! You know that as well. No one disputes it. Why are you arguing about known things? Just to get me to slip a bit and look stupid when you try and apply my criteria to things we don’t know?
How could you "know" this? Maybe some kind of AI algorithm was designed that performed the needed upgrade. Didn't you dismiss this possibility? And I'm not trying to make you "slip up" and look "stupid." I'm trying to get you to see that we, as humans, understand what the work of intelligent beings looks like. We're able to intuit this. Most of Darwinian evolutionary biology doesn't want to admit this; yet, we do it without thinking--my point all along. As to "junk" DNA, you should look at what is being discovered every day and especially what the ENCODE project--with recent results, shows about so-called "junk" DNA--most of it has some kind of function. Their project is one of discovering it. And they've reached the point where they now presume that if they haven't identified a function for some part of the genome, that it's only a matter of time before one turns up.
That’s crazy! Let’s say some event between people had a billion-to-one chance of happening. With 7 billion people one the planet I would say we would expect to see that event happening.
Yes, but what if the total number of particles in the entire Universe were 10^60, but the improbability of an event is 10^250? How do you get around that problem? When it comes to statistics, if you want to completely gut improbabilities all you have to do is to take any number of independent events and simply say that their dependent events and you go from multiplying improbabilities to adding them. This is Dawkin's little trick, one that doesn't hold up to rigor, with his Blind Watchmaker and Mt. Improbability. But the improbabilities are real and, so, devastating to Darwinian theory. [By the way, let's remember that in Darwin's first edition of the OoS (Origin of Species), he had to admit that a "creator" brought about "one, or several forms."]PaV
August 29, 2020
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105 Seversky
A river and a canal have much the same function but one is an artefact and one is a natural phenomenon.
False. Under materialism (atheism) (and you are a materialist), there is no division 'natural'/ 'artefact'. Humans are just another "pile of chemicals" (as any other animal/ living thing). We do not create artifacts then. There is no difference between a beaver "building" a dam and a H. sapiens "building" a dam. All "creations" in "nature" are the function of the same biological processes.Truthfreedom
August 29, 2020
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Querius: Darwinism: This organ doesn’t do anything, therefore it must be a vestigial, a vestige of evolution. This non-coding DNA doesn’t do anything, therefore it must be “junk.” Nice try but no one actually says that. You guys complain about strawman arguments but you make them all the time.
Actually, this was precisely the assumption of the brilliant geneticist and evolutionary biologist, Dr. Susumu Ohno in his seminal paper published in the journal, Evolution of Genetic Systems, Vol. 23, 1972, titled (drumroll) So much 'junk' DNA in our genome. So once again, your groundless assertions have been falsified. Unfortunately, this is a recurring pattern in your posts. Not to mention your efforts at convincing us that code cannot reproduce itself in @79. Gosh, haven't you ever heard of "computer viruses" that spread copies of themselves over the internet? Or do I have to define what I mean by reproduce and internet? -QQuerius
August 29, 2020
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46 JVL Your proposed "experiment" to test "randomness" (in mutations).
I would start by looking at their PDF based on their observed occurrences. Then I would monitor some defined sites on some genome to see when mutations occurred. I would look at some simple genomes and do some complete genome mappings to see what changed from generation to generation.
Umm. Maybe I did not make myself clear. My question was: How would you design an experiment/s to include all mutations since the beginning of life? (And, why should I read a PDF?)Truthfreedom
August 29, 2020
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Some unknown processes did some things in the distant past, is all you and yours have, JVL.ET
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After lots of bolding/ whining... 91 JVL Truthfreedom wrote:
You have not answered my question: to gain knowledge of the world (e.g. understanding/ using mathematics) we do need a RELIABLE cognitive apparatus. Yes/ No.
JVL "replied" (to be generous):
Gosh, I’m not obligated to ask your leading questions where you will attempt to get me to contradict myself.
___ 2nd attempt: To gain knowledge of the world (e.g. understanding/ using mathematics) we do need a RELIABLE cognitive apparatus. Yes/ No.Truthfreedom
August 29, 2020
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LoL! @ JVL:
Nobody takes you seriously so you have to make up some controversy about probability arguments.
Now facts are a controversy. Your ignorance isn't an argument, JVL in the cells. Via electrical charges. Via environmental changes, as per their name. And the evidence for their existence, epigenetics (for one) are discussed in scientific papers and textbooks.
Fine, spell it out. Show us the actual locations where this is happening. Snow us some evidence this is happenong. Show us something.
I have showed you more for ID than anyone has ever presented for unguided evolution. And AGAIN, to refute any given design inference all one has to do is step up and demonstrate that blind and mindless processes are capable to account for the alleged design. In other words, step up and actually support the claims of your own position!
Show me a designer around at . . . what time exactly? Who did what exactly?
In the beginning, designed the universe and intelligent agencies to observe it. As I said, it must really bother you to be so impotent.ET
August 29, 2020
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UPright Biped: Not to butt in, but it should be kept in mind that JVL has previously affirmed that the genetic code is indeed an irreducible system of symbolic representations and non-integrable constraints, just as predicted by John Von Neumann and experimentally confirmed by Crick, Watson, Brenner, Hoagland, Zamecnik, Nirenberg, and others. But what I did not admit, based on the comments by Dr Pattee, was that the systems under question were necessarily due to the influence of an intelligent agent. You need to stop trying to promulgate the same approach over and over and over again. It's not working. Most readers of this forum don't even bother reading your multiple links and mined quotes. Nobody actually reads your posts. Really.JVL
August 29, 2020
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Martin_r: “The Institute for Creation Research is developing an engineering-based, organism-focused model called continuous environmental tracking (CET) to explain how organisms self-adjust to changing conditions. Our model anticipates that the adaptive solutions creatures express can also be characterized as directed, rapid, and highly targeted. As we’ve highlighted in this Engineered Adaptability article series, research results are aligning with this expectation.” Well, let me know when they come up with something. Right now, it's all just faith . .Show me the evidence.JVL
August 29, 2020
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EugeneS: The evidence of a designer is right in front of you, mate. It is the architecture of the living organisms enabling semiotic closure. The only other cases in the entire observable cosmos where semiotic closure has been established are correlates of intelligence. The question is: was there a designer about at . . . what time exactly? Who did what exactly? With what exactly? If you want to do science then you have to start answering those kinds of questions. Show us the evidence. And, if your evidence is vague and uncompelling, then go find some more evidence. Don't whine and moan and complain that we're not taking you seriously. Go find more evidence. There is absolutely no evidence of complex function arising non-intelligently. What is known and observed, other than life, which is the explanandum, is intelligence-correlated. That is disputed. So you need to go find more evidence to support your case. Can you do that? By instantiating control and measurement into physicality to establish semiotic closure. Go and find more evidence. Sitting in your front room pontificating is all well and good but real solid physical evidence is much, much more compelling. 1. Observations: there exist configurations of matter exhibiting more than X functional bits. These are correlates of intelligence (intelligently designed), namely man made complex artifacts. Yes, yes, more armchair logic which is not a substitute for real, physical evidence. Can you provide that? When did your deisgner implement design? And if you can't answer that then why not?JVL
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Truthfreedom: Which is? The evidence I have seen. Wrong. That may-be possible for us (humans) to understand how matter behaves and is organized is one thing. That “science” can “prove” that life (which is dependent on the existence of the Universe) appeared “randomly and uncaused”, my friend, that’s a WHOLE other story. Look, show me your evidence or not. You're just playing games. Otherwise you're just a merchant of doubt.JVL
August 29, 2020
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ET: JVL, you are a LIAR. Neither you nor anyone else on this planet has any evidence for evolution by means of blind and mindless processes. the only reason probability arguments exist is because you and your have NOTHING but lies. Oh, poor baby. Nobody takes you seriously so you have to make up some controversy about probability arguments. Very sad. in the cells. Via electrical charges. Via environmental changes, as per their name. And the evidence for their existence, epigenetics (for one) are discussed in scientific papers and textbooks. Fine, spell it out. Show us the actual locations where this is happening. Snow us some evidence this is happenong. Show us something. And AGAIN, to refute any given design inference all one has to do is step up and demonstrate that blind and mindless processes are capable to account for the alleged design. In other words, step up and actually support the claims of your own position! Show me a designer around at . . . what time exactly? Who did what exactly? That is why ID’s opponents and critics are so upset. They have all the power to refute ID and are impotent in that regard. Show us a designer who did what exactly? And when exactly?JVL
August 29, 2020
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Querius: Darwinism: This organ doesn’t do anything, therefore it must be a vestigial, a vestige of evolution. This non-coding DNA doesn’t do anything, therefore it must be “junk.” Nice try but no one actually says that. You guys complain about strawman arguments but you make them all the time. ID: We don’t know what this organ (the pituitary, for example) is for, so let’s investigate. We don’t know what this non-coding DNA is for, so let’s investigate. Hey, guess what: all the recent insight into what was previously thought to be evolutionary backwaters was done by mainstream researchers NOT by ID proponents. Why is that do you think?JVL
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EugeneS @ 102
1. Observations: there exist configurations of matter exhibiting more than X functional bits. These are correlates of intelligence (intelligently designed), namely man made complex artifacts.
Arrangements of matter do not exhibit functional or non-functional bits. A bit is a metric we use to express or represent information we have abstracted from our observations of various "configurations of matter". It is a model of what we observe and what we choose to abstract from the raw observational data but not the thing observed. "Function" generally means what something does, a change of state rather than stasis, but it does not necessarily indicate intelligent agency. A river and a canal have much the same function but one is an artefact and one is a natural phenomenon. If you calculated the number of functional bits needed to describe them to an arbitrary degree of fidelity, would you be able to discriminate between the natural and the artificial?
2. No observations exist where statistically significant amounts of functional information arise non-intelligently. Evolution (or whatever is thought to have been in place in a pre-biotic environment) is no exception: evolution is a process of adaptation by functional degradation.
There can certainly be degradation or loss of function in evolution but it is not just functional degradation, there can be functional gain as well. In a way, it is more accurate to regard it as change in function which may be advantageous or disadvantageous depending on the environmental context in which it occurs. Genetic mutations are the result of a number of causes but there is nothing to indicate they are the result of some intelligent agency with the purpose of influencing the course of evolution of life on Earth. If there were it is doing a pretty bad job of it given that it appears that 99% of all species that have ever existed are now extinct. More likely that mutations are random with respect to fitness. And, as I have asked before, if Sanford's genetic entropy is such a catastrophically inevitable process then how did life ever get started in the first place? And if he attempts to pull some YEC stunt about God's design we have to ask why on Earth a perfect God would design something that is doomed to fall apart in a relatively short time?
3. Living systems exhibit statistically significant amounts of functional complexity.
So what?
4. We have reason to believe that living systems have also been intelligently designed.
We didn't design the living systems we observe, as far as we know, so either it was some unknown alien intelligence or they came about through natural processes. The only reason for inferring design is some parts of living systems, although not all, resemble things we design to varying degrees. Design can't be ruled out but neither can natural processes like evolution.Seversky
August 29, 2020
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. Not to butt in, but it should be kept in mind that JVL has previously affirmed that the genetic code is indeed an irreducible system of symbolic representations and non-integrable constraints, just as predicted by John Von Neumann and experimentally confirmed by Crick, Watson, Brenner, Hoagland, Zamecnik, Nirenberg, and others. JVL just doesn’t believe that the presence of a high-capacity symbol system (a language structure and semantic closure, as defined and measured by its unique physical properties) infers design at the origin of life — unless, of course, we can find some real evidence, like perhaps, (quoting JVL) the “designers toilet” left behind to signal for us a designer with the tangible need to relieve himself. And frankly, in retrospect, it is incorrect to say that JVL “doesn’t believe” in the soundness of the design inference from semiosis (i.e. he happily accepts it from projects such as SETI and IT ). But in ID the scientific results are fundamentally unacceptable, and thus, they must be quickly dismissed whenever and wherever they appear. JVL’s defense against science and reason is a real-time documented example of moving the goalpost, taken to the very extreme, as is required by his ideology. Actually he has a two part defense. When confronted with irrefutable evidence of design, first move the goalpost to a safe, even laughable, distance from the offending evidence, then manufacture and pursue a false narrative against anyone who doesn’t accept the new standard (PAV is already beginning to see the budding out of this little maneuver). This second part is intended to insulate JVL from having to justify his unjustifiable double standard and the ideology-based hyperskepticism behind it. The need to insulate himself is necessary because he has no desire to actually leave the conversation. Having clearly lost the argument over the objective evidence of design, he simply wants to stay and attack design without having to address that evidence. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Because computer code is not alive, it does not reproduce,
The is terribly incoherent; the ability to reproduce didn’t produce the code. The genetic code enables life and evolution, not the other way around. JVL clearly (and correctly) understands that evolution did not create life. If A requires B for A to exist, than A cannot be the source of B. To say that we cannot infer design from the physical properties of the genetic code because it causes life and evolution to exist is an meaningless attempt squint your eyes and point at the fog where none exist.
ID proponents have no idea who their designer was, when design was implemented, how design was implemented, why design was implemented. In fact, we don’t even know if there was a designer.
This is more of the same incoherent double standard at work. JVL is entirely happy with SETI inferring intelligent action from the reception of a narrow-band radio signal from outer space — without any requirement that we know anything of when or where or why the signal was produced. That is to say, the presence of an intelligence is inferred directly from the presence of something that is uniquely and universally associated only with intelligence. It is, in fact, the whole basis of the SETI methodology, as unambiguously stated by SETI themselves. Period, end. It is a sheer denial of recorded fact to pretend otherwise. JVL already knows this because I have provided him the relevant quotes taken directly from the SETI website (twice now, I think). It is his refusal to integrate facts and knowledge (of which he is fully aware) that is on display.
That’s why I think IT proponents have not done enough to support their case.
They have caused you admit that the gene system is indeed an irreducible organization of symbols and constraints. They have also forced you to shamelessly move the goalpost to a non-scientific position and adopt a series of glaring double-standards in order to maintain what is left of your position. To a fair-minded observer, I would think that you are the one on his back foot.Upright BiPed
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JVL @94 "Where are these ‘built-in repsonses”? How are they stored? How are they triggered? You haven’t shown they even exist." look here, this is the answer to your questions above. "The Institute for Creation Research is developing an engineering-based, organism-focused model called continuous environmental tracking (CET) to explain how organisms self-adjust to changing conditions. Our model anticipates that the adaptive solutions creatures express can also be characterized as directed, rapid, and highly targeted. As we’ve highlighted in this Engineered Adaptability article series, research results are aligning with this expectation." so, once again, it is called CET (Continuous Environmental Tracking: An engineering framework to understand adaptation and diversification.) here is an example of CET in real life, of course, there a many more (if interested, i can post more) "Rapid Changes in Plants Demonstrate Innate Tracking " https://www.icr.org/article/rapid-changes-plants-demonstrate-innate-trackingmartin_r
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JVL ==What have you appealed to? This stuff looks too complicated to have arisen without guidance.== You have been around here long enough not to say that. For your benefit again: 1. Observations: there exist configurations of matter exhibiting more than X functional bits. These are correlates of intelligence (intelligently designed), namely man made complex artifacts. 2. No observations exist where statistically significant amounts of functional information arise non-intelligently. Evolution (or whatever is thought to have been in place in a pre-biotic environment) is no exception: evolution is a process of adaptation by functional degradation. 3. Living systems exhibit statistically significant amounts of functional complexity. 4. We have reason to believe that living systems have also been intelligently designed. 1-4 are called an abductive inference to the best available explanation.EugeneS
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JVL Forgive me my interference... ==Why are you arguing about known things?== Because this is how science progresses. From an analysis of known things (observations) you make an inference to include unknown. Simple. There is absolutely no evidence of complex function arising non-intelligently. What is known and observed, other than life, which is the explanandum, is intelligence-correlated. Is that so hard to understand? How was it done? By instantiating control and measurement into physicality to establish semiotic closure.EugeneS
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==Look, if you have evidence of some designer operating at some time doing something then present it. == With pleasure. Comment 79 up the thread was designed by a conscious being. It is classified as designed based on the amount of functional information it carries. You insist that this is no evidence. Why? Is it really so difficult to grasp the crux of ID: whatever configuration of matter is associated with at least X functional bits has been designed? Where X is dependent upon the system in question. E.g. for an organism it is estimated as 140 functional bits. You keep on asking the same questions not noticing they have already been addressed. Why? What is the problem? The evidence of a designer is right in front of you, mate. It is the architecture of the living organisms enabling semiotic closure. The only other cases in the entire observable cosmos where semiotic closure has been established are correlates of intelligence. De facto, all science Is based on design assumptions. Whatever has been cleverly engineered can be reverse engineered and reused elsewhere. That is why science works at all, mate.EugeneS
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91 JVL
I’m saying that because of the evidence I have seen.
Which is?
It’s a scientific issue. I’ll base my views on the evidence.
Wrong. That may-be possible for us (humans) to understand how matter behaves and is organized is one thing. That "science" can "prove" that life (which is dependent on the existence of the Universe) appeared "randomly and uncaused", my friend, that's a WHOLE other story.Truthfreedom
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JVL:
Where are these ‘built-in repsonses”? How are they stored? How are they triggered? You haven’t shown they even exist.
in the cells. Via electrical charges. Via environmental changes, as per their name. And the evidence for their existence, epigenetics (for one) are discussed in scientific papers and textbooks. And AGAIN, to refute any given design inference all one has to do is step up and demonstrate that blind and mindless processes are capable to account for the alleged design. In other words, step up and actually support the claims of your own position! That is why ID's opponents and critics are so upset. They have all the power to refute ID and are impotent in that regard.ET
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JVL, you are a LIAR. Neither you nor anyone else on this planet has any evidence for evolution by means of blind and mindless processes. the only reason probability arguments exist is because you and your have NOTHING but lies.ET
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Darwinism: This organ doesn't do anything, therefore it must be a vestigial, a vestige of evolution. This non-coding DNA doesn't do anything, therefore it must be "junk." ID: We don't know what this organ (the pituitary, for example) is for, so let's investigate. We don't know what this non-coding DNA is for, so let's investigate. The "Get past the: this stuff looks designed" is obviously hindering science and suppresses research in areas designated as vestigial or junk. -QQuerius
August 29, 2020
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PaV: But you’re supposing “life” as already existing while the discussion is about how to solve immense improbabilities “pre-life.” This leaves you only non-random chemical reactions and random concentrations, with no room for NS since “life” has not yet arisen. So, what is your explanation and what is the evidence for it? If my position is bankrupt then show me something that is better supported with hard physical evidence. But none of that was needed by you to reach the conclusion that OS 1.O didn’t become OS 2.0 via random forces. Your immediate impulse was to assume “some” intelligent agent, though you don’t know who they are. This is a natural conclusion we intelligent beings make. Let’s admit this, or assume this. I did not 'assume' some intelligent agent, I know it was human beings who coded the Mac OS! You know that as well. No one disputes it. Why are you arguing about known things? Just to get me to slip a bit and look stupid when you try and apply my criteria to things we don't know? As to OS 1.0 becoming OS 2.0, neither do you “know” who the “designer” was, when the design was implemented (yes, you know the release date of the software, but no more), nor how the design was implemented. (Did they run algorithms, was it a team, did they bring in and hire outside people with greater expertise.) This is crazy. We both know it was human beings. We could, in all likelihood, figure out who was actually on the team. There'll be notes and minutes from meetings and design documents, etc, etc, etc. What are you arguing about? That the development of the Mac OS was even close to assuming that DNA was the production of design without even the evidence that there was any designer with the capabilities around at . . . . what time was it? Who did what exactly? If you want me to even come close to accepting there was a designer then you have to do better than that. Find some hard physical evidence. Can you do that? When highly improbable events happen, we naturally “infer” intelligence to be at work. That's crazy! Let's say some event between people had a billion-to-one chance of happening. With 7 billion people one the planet I would say we would expect to see that event happening. Who won that battle of ideas? I think we all know. Nope. You still have not shown any kind of function or purpose for large swaths of the human genome. You haven't. You dance and dodge around the numbers without addressing the hard science. How could a ‘correct’ theory turn out to be so wrong while an ‘incorrect’ theory turned out to be quite right? Shouldn’t this cause every evolutionary biologist some pause? You didn't turn out to be correct. You just want you and your buddies to think that.JVL
August 29, 2020
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ET: OK, present it or admit that you are lying, again. It isn’t in peer-review. It isn’t in textbooks. So it is obvious that JVL is lying or just deluded. After years of presenting you with the stuff you request just to have to deny it over and over and over again I'm not responding to your requests. You're not operating in good faith. The overwhelming evidence says there was at least one Intelligent Designer. Without one all you have to explain our existence is sheer dumb luck. That is an untestable and unscientific concept. The vase majority of scientists agree with you. Why is that? REALITY says that the only way to get to the designer and the process is by studying the design and all relevant evidence. That said, there have been ID mechanisms proposed. “Built-in responses to environmental cues” for evolution. Genetic algorithms demonstrate the power of evolution by means of telic processes. Where are these 'built-in repsonses"? How are they stored? How are they triggered? You haven't shown they even exist. That said, we still don’t know who designed Stonehenge. The when keeps changing. And that is a structure we are capable of reproducing. The when does not keep changing. You either make things up or depend on one or two dodgy references. Look at all the data not just the stuff that supports your views. It is obvious that JVL doesn’t understand nor care about science. If you're so good with science then do some. Do some work. Get past the: this stuff looks designed and do something!JVL
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EugeneS: And? How does that refute the ID claim that the first generation of such systems must have been designed? Look, if you have evidence of some designer operating at some time doing something then present it. You spend so much time trying to make light of other people's beliefs you forget to find evidence for your own. Are you suggesting that in order to classify comment 79 up the thread, I need to know exactly who JVL is. I can reasonably believe that JVL has a mind and is not a bot just by analysing JVL’s responses in this thread. You're not really responding to what I have been saying. You are talking past the ID claims. Your claims get you no where. This stuff was designed! And so? Then what? It's reasonable to ask when and how questions. Every avenue of science accepts such questions. But you seem uninterested addressing those questions. Why is that? To provide a serious answer to ID claims, you or anyone else from you ‘camp’ needs to be able to do either of these two: You need to support your view given the obvious and natural questions that are asked of it. You refuse to do so, why? 1. Logically exclude the possibility of the existence of a mind that could predate humans. You need to show such a thing exists. We have no evidence of it. 2. Experimentally demonstrate that functional complexity can accumulate by evolutionary means to the orders of magnitude comparable with that already present in the biosphere. This experiment can involve human intervention only at the stage of choosing the initial conditions. You can choose temperature, pressure, concentration of chemicals, chirality, luminosity, etc. at time = 0. Any involvement of the experimenter past the point of t=0, such as in the form of controlling the dynamics of the abiogenetic synthesis of life, must be excluded. No designer means it was all down to unguided processes. Show evidence of a designer around the pertinent time (which was when?) and specify what they did (which was what?). You always want to make it the problem of the unguided camp when it's you that's proposing a more complicated solution. I am not aware of any textbook that would carefully address the problems of abiogenetic synthesis. I haven't surveyed all the textbooks, have you? All you have done in your responses that I have seen is appeal to authority. This is not good enough, to be honest. The real trouble is, you know that and you are alright with it. What have you appealed to? This stuff looks too complicated to have arisen without guidance. No other evidence of a designer. No statement as to when design was implemented. No guesses as to how design was implemented. Talk about a fairy story. You haven't gone past the design inference at all.JVL
August 29, 2020
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I think, on balance, I prefer Monty Python's Life of Brian to The Holy Grail. "He's not the Messiah! He's a very naughty boy!"Seversky
August 29, 2020
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Truthfreedom: You are saying this: life has a ‘natural’ (spontaneous?) origin, although I do not have a clue about how it originated. But it had to be that way because it fits my pre-conceived worldview (materialism/no God). I'm saying that because of the evidence I have seen. You ASSUME my other beliefs. You should stop doing that, it's insulting. PaV is telling you that not-life can not create life (if inert matter can ‘create life’, anything goes). It’s not different from ‘magic’. It is a meta-physical issue. It's a scientific issue. I'll base my views on the evidence. You have not answered my question: to gain knowledge of the world (e.g. undestanding/ using mathematics) we do need a RELIABLE cognitive apparatus. Yes/ No. Gosh, I'm not obligated to ask your leading questions where you will attempt to get me to contradict myself. Mathematics is just a tool for dealing with quantitative aspects of reality. It can only answer questions that are appropriate for its approach. Apparently some animals can do some basic mathematics so perhaps you should define your terms. Then I am right. A subject (human) uses a tool (mathematics) to gain knowledge of his surroundings (he wants to know how does the Universe work). You're directing the conversation to some end. I'll just wait for you to make your point without trying to manipulate my responses.JVL
August 29, 2020
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This whole interchange reminds me of Monty Python's black knight sketch, where after PaV, ET, EugeneS, Truthfreedom, Jawa, and Martin_r cut off the arms and legs of the arguments against ID, we read the equivalent of "Twas but a scratch." The complete and profound ignorance of what software is actually capable of, including self modifying code, image recognition, "blackbox testing" for vulnerabilities (cyber fitness) is proudly on display @79 regardless. But I guess as long as you don't actually admit defeat you can bravely type out skeptical responses and challenges. -QQuerius
August 29, 2020
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JVL:
ID proponents have no idea who their designer was, when design was implemented, how design was implemented, why design was implemented. In fact, we don’t even know if there was a designer.
The overwhelming evidence says there was at least one Intelligent Designer. Without one all you have to explain our existence is sheer dumb luck. That is an untestable and unscientific concept. REALITY says that the only way to get to the designer and the process is by studying the design and all relevant evidence. That said, there have been ID mechanisms proposed. "Built-in responses to environmental cues" for evolution. Genetic algorithms demonstrate the power of evolution by means of telic processes. That said, we still don't know who designed Stonehenge. The when keeps changing. And that is a structure we are capable of reproducing. And one more thing, JVL's position is the mechanistic position. And he doesn't know the how or when. The why is "just because"- as if that is testable. It is obvious that JVL doesn't understand nor care about science.ET
August 29, 2020
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