Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Darwinian Debating Device #18: The “You’re Too Stupid to Understand Why I’m Smarter than You” Dismissal

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DDD # 18 is a particularly contemptible form of ad hominem, which Mark Frank and Elizabeth Liddle do us the service of demonstrating in the combox to this post. In the post Dr. Torley refers to Darwin’s Doubt by Dr. Stephen C. Meyer, which explains many of the shortcomings of various Darwinian narratives. Frank and Liddle tag team for a DDD #18:

Mark Frank:

[Meyer] explains perceived weaknesses in his understanding of evolutionary theory but gives no reason why design is a better alternative.

Liddle:

Exactly. His understanding of evolutionary theory is weak, and actual evolutionary theory is a better alternative.

Follow this link and take a look at what scientists who actually know what they are talking about have said about Darwin’s Doubt. A sample:

Darwin’s Doubt is by far the most up-to-date, accurate, and comprehensive review of the evidence from all relevant scientific fields that I have encountered in more than forty years of studying the Cambrian explosion. An engaging investigation of the origin of animal life and a compelling case for intelligent design.

Dr. Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig, Senior Scientist Emeritus (Biologist) at the Max Planck Institute for Plant Breeding Research

Darwin’s Doubt is an intriguing exploration of one of the most remarkable periods in the evolutionary history of life—the rapid efflorescence of complex body plans written in the fossils of the Burgess Shale . . . No matter what convictions one holds about evolution, Darwinism, or intelligent design, Darwin’s Doubt is a book that should be read, engaged, and discussed.

Dr. Scott Turner, Professor of Biology, State University of New York

Does anyone believe that numerous highly-credentialed scientists, many of whom specialize in biology, would recommend Meyer’s book if his “understanding of evolutionary theory is weak”? Of course not. What does this mean? It means that Elizabeth Liddle’s statement is false. I will leave it to others to debate whether she is merely too muddle-headed to understand that she has made an egregiously false ad hominem attack as a substitute for argument, or she knows the truth and has deliberately misled. The point is that either way, Liddle has avoided having to actually defend against Meyer’s claims by simply dismissing him as too stupid to understand why Darwinists like her are smarter than he. And that is contemptible.

Comments
Barry:
Exhibit A for the truth of Lewis’ observation: Pretty much everything Elizabeth Liddle writes in these pages.
I'll leave judgement to the eye of the beholder.Elizabeth Liddle
May 10, 2015
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Barry: your accusation was:
Liddle has avoided having to actually defend against Meyer’s claims by simply dismissing him as too stupid to understand why Darwinists like her are smarter than he. And that is contemptible.
This is demonstrably untrue. I have not "avoided having to actually defend against Meyer's claims". My "defence against Meyer's claims" has been on the internet since September 1st 2013. How can I possibly be "avoiding" doing something that I have already done? The fact that I did not reproduce my defense in that specific post does not, contrary to your assertion, indicate that I am "avoiding having to defend against Meyer's claims". Clearly I am not. You can't "avoid defending" something you have already defended, even if you wanted to, and I do not. I stand by my critique. If you want to mount a counter-rebuttal, feel free.Elizabeth Liddle
May 10, 2015
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Oh, and Mung: Far from editing your post on TSZ, I restored someone else's post that that you had edited. Your posts will not be edited at TSZ, as I said, other than redactions of the narrow range of material I specified (porn, malware, personal identification). Clearly that means that if you yourself edit someone's post, those edits will be reverted by moderators. No post of yours was edited. The post you edited was restored to its unedited state.Elizabeth Liddle
May 10, 2015
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I am certainly not a palaeontologist. And nor is Meyer. I do not criticise Meyer because he is not a qualified palaeontologist. I don't even criticise him because he, not being a qualified palaeontologist, writes a book on the palaeontology. I do criticise him for the errors in that book. If you think that Meyer is qualified to write the book, then I am just as qualified to point out the errors. In other words, qualifications are irrelevant. What matters is the content of the book. If anyone here disagrees with my critique of his book, then please defend Meyer against my critique.Elizabeth Liddle
May 10, 2015
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What inclines me now to think that you may be right in regarding it [i.e. evolution] as the central and radical lie in the whole web of falsehood that now governs our lives, is not so much your arguments against it as the fanatical and twisted attitudes of its defenders.
C.S. Lewis, Collected Letters, to Bernard Acworth, 13 September 1951 Exhibit A for the truth of Lewis' observation: Pretty much everything Elizabeth Liddle writes in these pages.Barry Arrington
May 10, 2015
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I wonder why phoodoo stated that she had studied music, while leaving out the fact that she is a trained scientist with a PhD in Psychology? Curious.daveS
May 10, 2015
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DaveS, Perhaps Lizzie should look into Stephen Meyer's background?phoodoo
May 10, 2015
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AMEN. Please lets raise the stakes on intelligence and its relation to ones acceptance of evolutionism after thoughtful reflection. AMEN. Finally the right to bring whether smart people agrere or disagree with evolution after studing it. I say the smarter folks will disagree with it more then agree with it. Yet they must weigh/study the facts and criticisms etc etc. Its very hard to do that for evolution believers who are smart. Themn don't get YEC/ID material and not well put. The more attention these origin subjects get the more evolutionism losess if serious reflection is going on by smarter people. Its an equation and a curve in the favor of truth. These ID authors are shaking the building but we need more. This evo building easily is on its last legs.Robert Byers
May 10, 2015
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OK DaveS @ 37: Here is the bio from her school's website:
Dr Elizabeth Liddle achieved her degree in music education from the University of York, then studied Architecture and Urban Design at Oxford Brooks University before coming to the University of Nottingham to undertake a PhD in Psychology. Her PhD dissertation was on temporal and spatial attentional deficits in dyslexia. She has also in the past taught secondary school music.
No academic qualifications in paleontology. That is what phoodoo said.Barry Arrington
May 10, 2015
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phoodoo, Maybe you should look further into Lizzie's background and occupation before crowing too loudly. loldaveS
May 10, 2015
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Lizzie, I understand your complaint that Meyer is not a palaeontologist. Its an interesting point. Can you remind us all again, what is your background in palaeontology? I mean Meyer has only written, what, 4 books on the subject? So I can certainly understand why you feel you are much more qualified in this topic than him. Can you enlighten us a little more about your field of academic study? I believe you studied music, isn't that right? Have you no shame Lizzie?phoodoo
May 10, 2015
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Mung:
So you put my name in there, not me? I don’t believe you.
Irrelevant. But, again to be clear, you inserted the following into my post, just as I stated at the time:
"Mung: I'm a slow learner. Enjoy it while you can. Guano calling."
C'mon, Mung. Sack up, own your mistake (hardly the crime of the century) and don't do it any more.Reciprocating Bill
May 10, 2015
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Mung: Did you, or did you not edit a comment into RB's post ? Could you give a clear answer: YES or NO.Graham2
May 10, 2015
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Reciprocating Bill:
Added to my post: Mung: I’m a slow learner. Enjoy it while you can. Guano calling.
So you put my name in there, not me? I don't believe you. RB: We'll violate our principles in order to uphold our principles and then hide behind claims of "no standing" when confronted with our violation of our own principles. I never doubted that.Mung
May 10, 2015
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Liddle: "Exactly. His understanding of evolutionary theory is weak, and actual evolutionary theory is a better alternative." Dr. Liddle, Can you please point out how Meyer's understanding of evolutionary theory is weak? Just trying to understand where his understanding is weak and how that might impact on my perceptions regarding some conclusions that he makes in his book. Thanks!bpragmatic
May 10, 2015
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Mung: Just so we are clear: are you referring to the comment you edited into anothers post ? Could you give a clear answer: YES or NO.Graham2
May 10, 2015
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Mung:
Meanwhile, over at TSZ, a comment of mine was deleted. The justification, if you can call it that...
Just so we are clear: You inserted a comment into one of MY posts. I assumed it was you. I asked whoever it was to please refrain from doing so again. I did so because I don't want my posts misunderstood. Lizzie reinforced and generalized my request and your tampering was removed. Her aim was to restore my post to it's original state in response to my objection. She has my (retroactive) permission to do so, and certainly would have known that at the time. You have no standing in the matter. Just as one has no ownership of graffiti one sprays on others' property, and no basis from which to complain when it is removed, you have no ownership of content you insert into others' posts - and no basis from which to complain when a post is restored to it's original form and your tampering removed.Reciprocating Bill
May 10, 2015
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Liddle:
Sure I did not make my defense in that comment . . .
And the tactic employed in that comment is the subject of the OP. What point is served by pretending that it is not? Your latest comment is like saying, "I don't always employee DDD#18, so it follows that I never do even when I do." I hope you can see that statement is a non sequitur.Barry Arrington
May 10, 2015
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Meanwhile, the usual suspects rush in to defend the violation of the principles of TSZ while remonstrating against me for violating said principles. Predictable. Hypocrites.Mung
May 10, 2015
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Elizabeth Liddle:
If you want to know what I think about Meyer’s book, come to TSZ, where nothing will be deleted except for porn, malware and personal details, and no-one is banned for anything except posting those things.
Meanwhile, over at TSZ, a comment of mine was deleted. The justification, if you can call it that:
Can I remind thread-starters not to moderate their own threads, even though you technically have that capacity. - Elizabeth Liddle
Elizabeth Liddle:
In any case, we do not edit posts, except to delete malware and porn links, or identifying info. No Loudspeaker in the Ceiling.
Just when I thought we had reached detente. I edited a post at TSZ. I did not remove any content from the post. In turn, my edit was edited and removed. But that does not happen at TSZ. Oh no. Never. We're not like that nasty UD. LoL.Mung
May 10, 2015
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"He gets the actual definition – and entire concept – of a phylum wrong. And it is the basis of his entire argument." You need to be open to new ideas, Elizabeth Liddle. Dr Meyer is just a tad ahead of you in understanding phylum. Just a tad. Being kind.ppolish
May 10, 2015
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Just trying to suck up to the enemy in case people here start thinking I am anti-ID and I have to go looking for a new home. Pure self-interest. Edit: But I was being serious. It happens.Mung
May 10, 2015
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Thanks Mung. Appreciated.Elizabeth Liddle
May 10, 2015
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I have to defend Elizabeth here. Even though I think she does a very poor job of addressing Meyer's arguments, she at least discussed the contents of the book over at TSZ. While her comment Barry cites may be dismissive, it would not be fair to say she has dismissed Meyer out of hand. And while in the cited post there was not a single word devoted to defending against Meyer's claims, Elizabeth has put some effort into doing that over at TSZ. Edit: I should have said "weak" rather than "very poor." ;)Mung
May 10, 2015
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I made no false claim, Barry. Sure I did not make my defense in that comment but I have made it at length elsewhere. In other words far from "avoiding" having to actually defend against Meyer’s claims, I have already done so, in public, as many here know.Elizabeth Liddle
May 10, 2015
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Mung:
1. Why do you then accuse him of making the most stupid of mistakes?
Because he made them.
2. Just not smart enough to know what he’s talking about.
Smart enough to know that he doesn't, which makes him culpable in my view. Look, it is not an "ad hominem" to say that someone has not understood something. It is an "ad hominem" to say they must be wrong because they were yellow cross-gartered stockings. I do not say Meyer is wrong because he is stupid. I say he is wrong because he is. And I have said, copiously, elsewhere, why. His argument about phylogenies shows he doesn't understand the basic principles of phylogenetics. His diagrams reveal this, as my marked up ones show. And it's not just an error on the part of the illustrator, because Meyer actually draws attention to them, and their features, indicating that they were commissioned to illustrate his point. He gets the actual definition - and entire concept - of a phylum wrong. And it is the basis of his entire argument.Elizabeth Liddle
May 10, 2015
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Mark Frank:
He [Meyer] explains weaknesses in evolutionary theory as he perceives them but gives no reason why design is a better alternative.
Assuming you're talking about Meyer. If not ignore what follows. Are you another 'critic' who hasn't read the book?Mung
May 10, 2015
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Liddle:
Because, Barry, as my link shows . . .
Link? Here is a link. It is a link to your comment, and everyone can see there is no link to any defense against Meyer's claims. Again, will someone tell me what purpose is served by making a false claim that anyone can demonstrate is false with five seconds of investigation? Madness. The rant that follows the latest falsehood speaks volumes. Barry Arrington
May 10, 2015
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Elizabeth Liddle:
FWIW, I don’t think Stephen Meyer is stupid at all. I think he’s very smart.
1. Why do you then accuse him of making the most stupid of mistakes? 2. Just not smart enough to know what he's talking about.Mung
May 10, 2015
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Because, Barry, as my link shows, I have posted a great deal about why I think that Meyer's claims are criticisms against a straw man. I did not "dismiss" Meyer, and I have not avoided explaining why I think the claims in he makes in his book are erroneous. If you want to read my explanation, start with my link. I address his arguments, I do not dismiss his person. And frankly, Barry, I see no reason why anyone should spend any length on composing responses to anything on this site, given the apparent risk that they will be deleted in their entirety without explanation. If anything is "ad hominem" it is your use of the "delete user" button on WordPress. If you want to know what I think about Meyer's book, come to TSZ, where nothing will be deleted except for porn, malware and personal details, and no-one is banned for anything except posting those things.Elizabeth Liddle
May 10, 2015
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