Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Darwinism predicts “X.” Oh, you tell me the opposite of “X” happened? Well Darwinism predicted that too.

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Marx (Karl, not Groucho) predicted that under capitalism workers were bound to become more and more dissatisfied and therefore a workers’ revolution was inevitable.  When workers’ conditions actually improved under capitalism, Lenin modified the theory — of course the workers’ lot is improving; the capitalists are bribing them to keep them pacified, just what the theory predicted would happen.

In Edge, Behe talks about Ernst Mayr’s 1960’s prediction that on Darwinian grounds the search for homologous genes would be quite futile.  Now Darwinists use homologous genes as evidence for the theory; after all the existence of such genes was predicted by the theory (after the fact).

What can you say about a theory that can just as easily predict “X” and the opposite of “X”?

I commend to our readers sections 19 and 20 of Popper’s Logic of Scientific Discovery, in which he discusses “conventionalist stratagems” to rescue a theory from falsification.  Popper writes, “Whenever the ‘classical’ system of the day is threatened by the results of new experiments which might be interpreted as falsifications . . . the system will appear unshaken to the conventionalist.”  Popper goes on to explain the stratagems the conventionalist will use to deal with the inconsistencies that have arisen between the predictions of the theory and the results of experiments:

1.  Blame our inadequate mastery of the system.

2.  Suggest the ad hoc adoption of auxiliary hypotheses.

3.  Suggest corrections to measuring instruments.

4.  Modify definitions used in the theory.

5.  Adopt a skeptical attitude of the observer whose observations threaten the system by excluding his observations from science because (a) they are insufficiently supported; (b) they are unscientific; (c) they are not objective.

6.  Call the experimenter a liar.

Today’s class assignment:  How many of Popper’s “conventionalist stratagems” have been used against Behe’s Edge.  Extra credit for concrete examples.

Comments
Congregate [re 78]. "What am I missing? You are missing the fact that ID is not inconsistent with evolution OF A CERTAIN SORT. Many ID proponents believe strongly in front loaded evolution. ID does not attack evolution per se. It attacks blind watchmaker darwinism.BarryA
November 30, 2007
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Congregate [re 77], the technical name for the concept to which you refer is "allopatric speciation." The example to which you refer is, of course, circumstantial evidence that this in fact occurred. But it is not conclusive evidence, as many darwinists would like to believe. There is simply no confirmed report of anyone witnessing the origin of a new species through the joint action of reproductive isolation and mechanisms of genetic change. See Section 4.2 of the Design of Life. What?!!!??? You don't have Design of Life yet. Well run out and get it. Anyone who wants to know anything about ID has to have this book.BarryA
November 30, 2007
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Jerry 76- Well I haven't read that whole paper yet, but this sure surprised me, given the rest of our discussion:
Design theory places no limits on the amount of evolutionary change that organisms might have experienced in the course of natural history.
Has Dembski recanted that? Isn't that exactly what design theory does? What am I missing?congregate
November 30, 2007
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bornagain77 at 64: My first solid proof of evolution for your demolition: the fact that in island groups, like the Galapagos Islands, each island has very similar types of animals and plants, with variations between the islands, and with those variations matching well with the variations in the geography and microclimate of the individual islands. Is that not consistent with the theory of unguided evolution?congregate
November 30, 2007
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congregate, No. Even neo Darwinism does not rule out an omnipotent creator. In fact for many it presupposes One who had the power/intelligence to plan it all from the start with no necessity of interfering. This is a basis of many theistic evolutionists religious views who look down on ID as postulating a lesser God who has to constantly tinker with His creation. However, ID allows for an omnipotent creator but does not require one. If you have not read Dembski's paper on ID written 11 years ago, you should. It is long but lays out the problems very well. The difference between neo Darwinism and the Blind Watchmaker Thesis is discussed in detail as well as ID problems with neo Darwinism. It is http://www.arn.org/docs/dembski/wd_theologn.htmjerry
November 30, 2007
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Jerry 73- My question “But if an intelligent cause includes an omnipotent creator of the universe, there is no evidence that could exclude it, right?” is not about who the designer might be, or where we might turn to look for evidence of who it might be. As you say, that is undetermined by ID. My question is just a question of logic, I think. Is there any state of the evidence that would conclusively rule out the existence of an omnipotent designer? Personally, I don't think there is.congregate
November 30, 2007
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Jerry 72- Which is harder, to produce the instruction book or to produce the product? It seems to me that the actual product would be harder to produce. As I understand it, a person is produced by all natural processes. (My mom said all it takes is a mommy and daddy who love each other very much, and a stork). ;) But seriously. So your view suggests that at least some new species appear in the world suddenly without ancestors. Is there any evidence this has happened recently? When do you think was the last time it happened?congregate
November 30, 2007
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congregate, "But if an intelligent cause includes an omnipotent creator of the universe, there is no evidence that could exclude it, right?" I believe that somewhere along the line intelligence stepped in. Now for life, this intelligence could be no more intelligent than us. Humans are probably within 50 years of creating some type of genome. The creation of the universe is something else. That is way beyond anything like us but it does not point to some specific kind of intelligence, only an extremely immense one. So the intelligence in intelligent design is not determined to be any specific god such as the Judeo Christian God. It theoretically could be more than one being working together. Maybe Zeus was working with a few friends such as Apollo and Athena. It is completely undetermined by ID. For any evidence on the nature of the intelligence behind the universe, one has to go some place else in addition to science. For the intelligence behind life, it may be the same place or it may be a different being. Again one has to look at other evidence. One may want to go to something like natural law to seek an explanation and see what is part of our nature. Or one may want to consult a wise man. There have been several throughout history. Of if one wants a religious explanation; for example, in the Nicene Creed it specifically says the Holy Spirit is the giver of life. This creed was the product of a couple hundred men praying to God. In all these possible explanations science may only be of partial help. People here have very different ideas on who the intelligence is but I personally don't believe science can tell them anything definitively.jerry
November 30, 2007
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congregate, Easy questions first. "a question for Jerry: But if I understand correctly, your main disagreement with the generally accepted scientific theory is that you don’t think it is possible that all the changes in the genes are caused by natural or non-intelligent or random processes, but that some changes are so substantial that they must have been the result of intelligent causes. Have I understood correctly?" The answer is yes. A big supporter of neo Darwinism, Sean Carroll, estimated it would take 10,000 pages of small print to reproduce all the instructions that are responsible to produce a human. My guess is that this is an underestimate. All these instructions are inter-related and the complexity is immense and no natural process has shown the ability to create even a few lines of one page let alone 10,000 pages. So yes, I do not believe any natural process can lead to such organized functional complexity. neo Darwinism assumes you start with such a book (doesn't tell you how such a book was ever written) and then by changing a little here and a little there you end up with something completely different. And all this with out actually having any evidence of any of the books in between. A truly magical process to create such extraordinary sequences without leaving a trace. But it is key to understand that each step in the process from A to B is considered final (A1, A2,..., An). A organism does not know it is headed for B but somehow A1 appears. But we never see A1 or A2 and all the others up to An which is just before B even though each is a final state. They are all lost for every transition that ever took place. Maybe the logical conclusion is that the transitions never took place and that blind faith that every single one never fossilized is really the illogical conclusion.jerry
November 30, 2007
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Thanks Jerry.congregate
November 30, 2007
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congregate, I will try to respond tomorrow to your other questions.jerry
November 29, 2007
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"From my 39, questions for Jerry: Do Tiktalik and the land animal to whale transitions not qualify [as transitional forms]? If not, what is missing?" First, I am hardly an expert on paleontology. I can only look at what they have and watch human nature emboss on it. But look at the hype for the Tiktaalik. It is treated like is was the second coming. For a theory with overwhelming evidence, the need to take this remote species and exalt it like it was is more telling than anything. If they acted more ho-hum like it is just one of the thousands of pieces of the puzzle, it would reveal more confidence. It is a single fossil and only half a body. Look at what they have done with creative drawings of this animal. It is apparently crocodile like and as such will look like several other animals that have existed. For there to be gradualism there must be tens of thousands of different morphologies in a transition. What you have here is one half fossil, possibly 10's of million years between hypothetical beginning and end points. Hardly a hard core example of gradualism and just as likely another example of the sudden appearance of a new species. There is a point that should be made here. ID does not deny that life is progressing. It is interesting that this is not a Darwinian perspective since neo Darwinism by definition postulates no necessary forward movement in species formation. So the appearance of various species as time marches on is consistent with ID and the appearance of the Tikaalik is no big deal. Now as I said above most organisms will never fossilize but that excuse does not give one the license to take a half fossil and extrapolate it over 10's of million years as the path from one organism to another. Is it possible? Yes, but there is nothing in the Tikaalik that is hard evidence of gradualism. There are better speculations than this. This particular fossil may someday become a darling as more are found and as more potential transitions are discovered. But until that time, the hype says more than anything. In all these fossils one of the first person approached is the creative artist to flesh out the speculation of the paleontologist. It is late and I have to go but this is the basis for the start of a discussion of the value of Tiktaalik as proof of a transition by gradualism. One of the interesting things from this search about the Tiklaatik is the discovery of the book by Henry Gee about paleontology, In Search of Deep Time: Beyond the Fossil Record to a New History of Life which I just ordered from Amazon.jerry
November 29, 2007
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bornagain77 64- Obviously there is no one solid proof, or we wouldn't be having this friendly conversation. I'm trying to watch the Packers and do a crossword puzzle at the same time. Maybe I can pick a target for you tomorrow.congregate
November 29, 2007
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Jerry 63 - I am trying to learn. Here are some questions I've asked in this thread that I don't think have been answered yet. If I've missed an answer, please point me to it. From my 27 Quoting BarryA:
Sure, ID predicts that organisms will be relatively stable until they are changed through a directed process. It predicts that there will not be numerous successive slight modifications among species, so that the fossil record will show bursts of activity and then stasis over long periods of time.
My question: How does that prediction follow from the ID intuition (some things in the universe are so complex that they must have arisen from intelligent intervention)? It seems plausible, and is certainly consistent with the evidence, but it is just as easy to imagine a designer who makes minor changes on a regular basis, isn’t it? An intelligent designer might work by looking in on his design every day and gently nudging here and touching up there, couldn’t it? BarryA hasn't been in the thread much, maybe because it's drifted so far from his original post. Can anybody else answer those? From my 32, another set of questions originally for BarryA, but I'll take answers wherever I can get them: I haven’t read Edge (from the descriptions I’ve seen in various places I wouldn’t be able to follow it). If it is possible for you to condense it [referring to Behe's Edge of Evolution] for me, how does it rule out chance and necessity for any complex novelty? Is the malaria example enough to do so? How do we know whether a fossil is of an intermediate form? More narrowly, is an intermediate form one that shows characteristics of an earlier form and a later one? From my 39, questions for Jerry: Do Tiktalik and the land animal to whale transitions not qualify [as transitional forms]? If not, what is missing? How do you define “sudden” [referring to Jerry's statement that changes over time have been sudden and dramatic]? From my 46, one more for Barry, regarding fitness landscapes: Don’t changes in the environment change the landscape? An expedition may reach the top of a hill, spend a few million years there, and then find that the landscape changes, and what was once the top of the hill is now only halfway up? From my 50, a question for Jerry: But if I understand correctly, your main disagreement with the generally accepted scientific theory is that you don’t think it is possible that all the changes in the genes are caused by natural or nonintelligent or random processes, but that some changes are so substantial that they must have been the result of intelligent causes. Have I understood correctly? From my 51, another question for Jerry: Why does the existence of long gaps make the series [of alleged transitional fossils] less convincing? Do you not agree with the conclusion that the members of the series are related? From my 60, for Jerry: As I think I said above somewhere in this thread, I think that you have seen the evidence that has convinced the large majority of the experts, and you don’t find it convincing. Your objection, as I understand it, is that there is no evidence that excludes an intelligent cause. But if an intelligent cause includes an omnipotent creator of the universe, there is no evidence that could exclude it, right? From my 62, (I didn't put it as a question at the time, but how does one measure the information in an organism or population?) Thanks.congregate
November 29, 2007
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Jerry 53 (sorry to go so far back)-
ust because two fossils may appear to be related, does not mean that one turned into the other through a gradual or any other naturalistic process. . . . To conclusively prove a gradualistic approach one would need hundreds if not thousands of transitions between A and B to show how one gradually transformed into another.
That seems like a very high standard!congregate
November 29, 2007
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I suppose, to be fair, we all experienced this ‘argument from authority’ and for myself even though I new the evidence in my field was nonexistent, I did still wonder if it was just me being stupid – after all these are intelligent men. That was until I realised that theories (and religions etc) tend to produce a box type mentality, where information critical to the theory is left out – giving the theory an almost invincible appearance to those inside the box.Acquiesce
November 29, 2007
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Geez Congregate, You don't give us anything to debate you on accept your own personal belief that the "experts" are right so we must be wrong. Well I tell you what, this might help us to get a handle on the falsehoods you have, why don't you give us your own personal favorite for "solid proof" of evolution and let us show you how it is deficient as a solid proof?bornagain77
November 29, 2007
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congregate, you said "I think that you have seen the evidence that has convinced the large majority of the experts, and you don’t find it convincing." We have not seen any evidence that is relevant. So don't allude to something that does not exist. We tend to be well read on this topic. Now there will be a tendency to say we do not see the relevance of what is presented but in reality we could if anything was actually presented. But even Ph.D.s in biology don't present anything. Doesn't that give you a clue. you said "Your objection, as I understand it, is that there is no evidence that excludes an intelligent cause. But if an intelligent cause includes an omnipotent creator of the universe, there is no evidence that could exclude it, right?" Absolutely not. Why bring up an omnipotent creator. It has nothing to do with the discussion. Only a few things in the universe may be due to an intelligent cause as most of it operates on the laws inherent in its construction which by the way seem extremely intelligently designed. By the way, one of other things we find is that once a supporter of Darwinism finds out that he or no one else can marshall any support for Darwinism is to play the religion card which you just did. You are on your way to playing out the typical scenario we find all the time. My guess is that you will eventually leave because why stay here when you cannot bring anything to the table. It would be different if it seemed you want to learn but all it seems you are doing is struggling to find some way to undermine us. It must be frustrating to stay around and have your beliefs undermined continually and not being able to defend them to some extent or undermine those you disagree with. It would be different if it was something like religion but here we mainly talk science and logic when the topic is evolution. So your religious like faith in Darwinism is really out of place when it is facts and logic we are interested in. As I said, keep the faith.jerry
November 29, 2007
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bornagain77, I'm afraid I'll have to disappoint you, but I am unable to provide what you ask for. I have no idea how to measure the information in an organism or population of organisms.congregate
November 29, 2007
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congregate, Please give a specific conclusive evidence of information being generated in sub-speciation that cannot be attributed to Genetic Entropy and thus the loss of information generation.bornagain77
November 29, 2007
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Jerry 58-
This is the interesting phenomena of this debate. Don’t you think if there was good evidence for macro-evolution, these experts would be citing chapter and verse all the evidence and you and thousands of others would be here repeating all their examples.
As I think I said above somewhere in this thread, I think that you have seen the evidence that has convinced the large majority of the experts, and you don't find it convincing. Your objection, as I understand it, is that there is no evidence that excludes an intelligent cause. But if an intelligent cause includes an omnipotent creator of the universe, there is no evidence that could exclude it, right?congregate
November 29, 2007
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Patrick 56-
Now what would you personally consider convincing?
(as proof of the limit of evolution's potential to create significant change over long time frames) I'm not sure. That's a tough question, particularly given the long time frames involved, and the difficulty of defining what is a significant change.
I would just like to see general acknowledgment that the current formulation of Darwinism needs more research before going beyond a hypothesis and becoming a functioning theory.
It seems like it's functioning well enough to keep a lot of biologists busy doing research.congregate
November 29, 2007
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congregate, you said "I guess I just have trouble getting past the fact that almost none of the experts do, " This is the interesting phenomena of this debate. Don't you think if there was good evidence for macro-evolution, these experts would be citing chapter and verse all the evidence and you and thousands of others would be here repeating all their examples. But you are not repeating all the good examples, only repeating that you have faith in their faith. As I said no one has ever stepped up to the plate. You are not the first nor the last. We just witnessed another, ellazimm, who couldn't provide any information but only faith that it must exist. He just left in a huff and a puff because he couldn't shout us down with his vague non-supported beliefs. He actually accused us of not providing any information when we provided plenty and he contributed nothing. It is interesting, don't you think. Ask yourself why. Keep the faith! Meanwhile, I will stick with the evidence.jerry
November 29, 2007
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BarryA you said "Acquiesce, you allude to the “rough landscape.” Hill climbing is a metaphor often favored by Darwinists (e.g., Dawkins’ “Climbing Mount Improbable”). The problem with the metaphor is that the Darwinists leave the impression that there is a single hill with smooth sides that are easily climbed in step by step fashion. Other Darwinists acknowledge that the metaphor is seriously flawed." Well I think mount improbable was supposed to illustrate how it could happen not how it did. The problem here is, as you pointed out, its not all that probable an explanation after all. Anyone can imagine how evolution “could” have occurred the problem is finding out how and what actually did organize and guide its arrival. The fact is that the facts are scarce and this is why NDE is origin sciences illegitimate champion theory.Frost122585
November 29, 2007
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Maybe with a lot more research Behe and others following in his footsteps can convincingly find the edge of what evolution can do.
It's a currently unsubstantiated belief that there isn't an edge to what unguided Darwinian mechanisms can achieve. Unfortunately there isn't a "scientific standard" for what would be considered "convincing". Now what would you personally consider convincing? BTW, just because it's currently unsubstantiated does not mean that I think the proposed mechanisms should be ignored. Each needs to be analyzed thoroughly so we have a complete picture of biology. I would just like to see general acknowledgment that the current formulation of Darwinism needs more research before going beyond a hypothesis and becoming a functioning theory.Patrick
November 29, 2007
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So this can be interpreted as reasonable evidence that the basic RV+NS mechanism doesn’t explain macroevolution.
I suppose it can be interpreted that way, but I guess I just have trouble getting past the fact that almost none of the experts do, even the people who've thought about it enough to write the material you quote above. Maybe with a lot more research Behe and others following in his footsteps can convincingly find the edge of what evolution can do.congregate
November 29, 2007
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congregate (#47): "You are asking the wrong people. If I wanted to find out about the state of the evidence regarding a topic in biology, I probably wouldn’t ask the random souls who wander into the comments section of the blog of a philosopher and mathematician." You are referring in part to the state of the evidence in the fossil record. The following quotes are from some of the foremost evolutionists, who know far more than you or me about the fossil evidence. They seem quite clear and not a matter of quoting out of context. Of course these experts are not saying they believe a teleological intellegently directed process has operated, either. Presumably their faith in materialism was unshaken, but they were recognizing the actual state of the theory. The reality of the fossil record was well expressed by Gould: “…the extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology….The history of most fossil species includes two features inconsistent with gradualism: 1. Stasis. Most species exhibit no directional change during their tenure on earth. They appear in the fossil record looking much the same as when they disappear… 2. Sudden Appearance. In any local area, a species does not arise gradually by the steady transformation of its ancestors; it appears all at once and ‘fully formed’ (Natural History 86(5), 1977, ps. 14, 13). Sure, that was 1977 not 2007, but this situation just isn’t going away: “No wonder paleontologists shied away from evolution so long. It never seems to happen. When we do see the introduction of evolutionary novelty, it usually shows up with a bang, and often with no firm evidence that the fossils did not evolve elsewhere! Yet that is how the fossil record has struck many a forlorn paleontologist looking to learn something about evolution. (Eldridge, “Reinventing Darwin, 1995, p. 95). The Cambrian Explosion is perhaps the most glaring discrepancy with the expectations of NDE. A couple of quotes from the professional literature show the actual situation for the theory. “If we were to expect to find ancestors to or intermediates between higher taxa, it would be the rocks of the late Precambrian to Ordivician times, when the bulk of the world’s higher animal taxa evolved. Yet traditional alliances are unknown or unconfirmed for any of the phyla or classes appearing then.” (Valentine, Development As An Evolutionary Process, p.84, 1987). “The Cambrian Explosion occurred in a geological moment, and we have reason to think that all major anatomical designs may have made their evolutionary appearance at that time. …not only the phylum Chordata itself, but also all its major divisions, arose within the Cambrian Explosion…. Contrary to Darwin’s expectation that new data would reveal gradualistic continuity with slow and steady expansion, all major discoveries of the past century have only heightened the massiveness and geological abruptness of this formative event…” (Gould, Nature, Vol.377, 26 10/95, p.682). Of course, as the culture war has heated up, it has become more and more politically incorrect and career damaging for professionals to express such objective, realistic views of the current state of the science. The important evolutionary transformations in complexity and innovation always happen “somewhere else” and are not captured in the fossil record as they happen. NDE is a gradual tiny step-wise process which should show up as such in the fossil record. So what could be the explanation? Conditions for fossilization could always just happen to be unfavorable during macroevolution, but this is clearly intenable. So it would always have to somehow be taking place in small peripheral populations that are generally not fossilized due to small numbers, and/or always happen too fast to leave enough fossils if any to be detected. But the NDE mechanism inherently requires large populations and large numbers of generations to work.The NDE argument is basically that low probabilities are overcome by having large enough populations to allow a large number of possibly advantageous random genetic variations occur in different individuals in each generation. Every new generation would be another roll, with another chance of another particular needed gene mutation to appear, and all of them would selectively spread into the population in parallel, working through fixation. But the small peripheral populations are too small to have the large pool of variation needed by the NDE process to select from in each generation. If it always happens too fast for fossilization the number of generations for NDE to accomplish the transformation is severely limited. So this can be interpreted as reasonable evidence that the basic RV+NS mechanism doesn't explain macroevolution.magnan
November 29, 2007
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congregate, Just because two fossils may appear to be related, does not mean that one turned into the other through a gradual or any other naturalistic process. You could just as easily as pointed to various primates and humans which are closer morphologically than the forrest animal to whale transition. Just because these primates are very similar does not mean they gradually turned in to each other. Now this is the conventional wisdom presented in the textbooks but there is no empirical evidence for any of these transitions only conjecture that they must have existed. To conclusively prove a gradualistic approach one would need hundreds if not thousands of transitions between A and B to show how one gradually transformed into another. Now granted, most organisms never get fossilized and then only a small amount get found but with the theoretically hundreds of millions of necessary transitions that would have to have existed for gradualism to have worked, you would have to believe some transitions would have been fossilized and found. They are finding new fossils all the time but nearly all repeat previous fossils which says that most of what is out there is just what we already have. Now I expect we will see some spectacular fossil finds in this century but until that happens we will have to go with the best evidence and that is it does not support gradual transitions. Also as I said before there are no example of any species currently in transition to anything significantly different. If the process that supposedly created all the species in the past is still operating then it should be producing all sorts of modifications in the genomes of current species and some of these should be in various stages of transition replacing their predecessors. But alas, we find no such trend. We find the same situation as in the fossil record. Just stasis with trivial changes. Then there is the book by Behe (Edge of Evolution) which emphasize the limits of naturalistic process to produce anything novel in a genome. Consequently the evidence against a gradualistic approach is overwhelming while other naturalistic approaches might be still in play. If a gradualistic approach was at work during macro-evolution then it certainly did its best to hide itself or frustrate researchers in supporting it as a viable theory which is why I say no one has ever come here with good evidence. But you are entitled to your faith that such evidence will eventually show up and can choose to believe in Darwinism waiting for this empirical confirmation. I happen to believe that science and logic is saying it will not be forthcoming. Either way it makes no difference to me because it has no effect on anything else I believe.jerry
November 28, 2007
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congregate, You are drawing Imaginary lines in the fossil record connecting whatever you want to see, such as the laughable evolution of whale scenario. This is not hard science and does not hold up under critical analysis. You want a more realistic look at the fossil record? Here: It is in the Cambrian explosion, some 540 million years ago, that we find the sudden appearance of the many diverse and complex forms of life. These complex life-forms appear with no evidence of transition from the bacteria and few other “simple” life-forms that immediately preceded them in the fossil record. This following quote clearly illustrates this point. “Yet, here is the real puzzle of the Cambrian Explosion for the theory of evolution. All the known phyla (large categories of biological classification), except one, first appear in the Cambrian period. There are no ancestors. There are no intermediates. Fossil experts used to think that the Cambrian lasted 75 million years.... Eventually the Cambrian was shortened to only 30 million years. If that wasn't bad enough, the time frame of the real work of bringing all these different creatures into existence was shortened to the first five to ten million years of the Cambrian. This is extraordinarily fast! Harvard's Stephen Jay Gould stated, "Fast is now a lot faster than we thought, and that is extraordinarily interesting." What an understatement! "Extraordinarily impossible" might be a better phrase! .... The differences between the creatures that suddenly appear in the Cambrian are enormous. In fact these differences are so large many of these animals are one of a kind. Nothing like them existed before and nothing like them has ever appeared again.” Evolution's Big Bang; Dr. Raymond G. Bohlin, University of Illinois (B.S., zoology), North Texas State University (M.S., population genetics), University of Texas at Dallas (M.S., Ph.D., molecular biology). The “real work” of the beginning of the Cambrian explosion may in actuality be as short as a two to three million year time frame (Ross: Creation as Science 2006). If this blatant, out of nowhere, appearance of all the different phyla was not bad enough for naturalists, the fossil record shows that there was actually more variety of phyla at the end of the Cambrian explosion than there is today due to extinction. “A simple way of putting it is that currently we have about 38 phyla of different groups of animals, but the total number of phyla discovered during the Cambrian explosion (including those in China, Canada, and elsewhere) adds up to over 50 phyla. (Actually the number 50 was first quoted as over 100 for a while, but then the consensus became 50-plus.) That means there are more phyla in the very, very beginning, where we found the first fossils, than exist now.” “Also, the animal explosion caught people's attention when the Chinese confirmed they found a genus now called Yunnanzoon that was present in the very beginning of the Cambrian explosion. This genus is considered a chordate, and the phylum Chordata includes fish, mammals and man. An evolutionist would say the ancestor of humans was present then. Looked at more objectively, you could say the most complex animal group, the chordates, were represented at the very beginning, and they did not go through a slow gradual evolution to become a chordate.” Dr. Paul Chien PhD., chairman of the biology department at the University of San Francisco, Dr. Chien also possesses the largest collection of Chinese Cambrian fossils in North America. http://members.cox.net/wwcw/q-evol4.html The evolutionary theory would have us believe we should have more phyla today due to ongoing evolutionary processes. The hard facts of science betray the naturalists once again. The naturalist stamps his feet and says the evidence for the fossils transmutation into radically new forms is out there somewhere; we just have not found it yet. To justify this belief, naturalists will often say that soft bodied fossils were not preserved in the Cambrian fossil record, so transitional fossils were just not recorded in the fossil record in the first place. Yet, the Chinese Cambrian fossil record is excellent in its preservation of delicate - ied fossils that clearly show much of the detail of the body structures of these first creatures. So the problem for naturalists has not been alleviated. In fact the problem has become much worse. As Dr. Ray Bohlin stated, some of these recently discovered fossils are extremely unique and defy any sort of transitional scenario to any other fossils found during the Cambrian explosion. As well as the fossil record itself, recent DNA analysis rules out any transitional scenarion between phyla in the Cambrian Explosion: "The new molecular based phylogeny has several important implications. Foremost among them is the disappearance of "intermediate" taxa between sponges, cnidarians, ctenophores, and the last common ancestor of bilaterians or "Urbilateria."...A corollary is that we have a major gap in the stem leading to the Urbilataria. We have lost the hope, so common in older evolutionary reasoning, of reconstructing the morphology of the "coelomate ancestor" through a scenario involving successive grades of increasing complexity based on the anatomy of extant "primitive" lineages." From an article published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, USA, in 2000 In spite of this crushing evidence found in the Cambrian explosion and DNA analysis of different phyla, our naturalistic friend continues to imagine that all life on earth descended from a common ancestor and continues to imagine missing links with every new fossil discovery that makes newspaper headlines. Yet, the true story of life since the Cambrian explosion, that is actually told by the fossil record itself, tells a very different story than the imaginative tales found in naturalistic newspaper accounts. Where the story of life, since the Cambrian explosion, is extremely clear to read is in the sea creatures who fossilize quickly in ocean sediments. We find fossils in the fossil record that appear suddenly, seemingly out of nowhere, fully-formed. They have no apparent immediate evolutionary predecessor. They, just, appear suddenly in the fossil record unique and fully-formed. This is exactly what one would expect from an infinitely powerful and transcendent Creator continually introducing new life-forms on earth. Even more problematic for the naturalists is the fact once a fossil suddenly appears in the fossil record it remains surprisingly stable in its basic structure for as long as it is found in the fossil record. The fossil record can offer not even one clear example of transition from one fossil form to another fossil form out of millions of collected fossils. Some sea creatures, such as certain sharks which are still alive today, have unchanging fossil records going back hundreds of millions of years to when they first suddenly appeared in the fossil record without a predecessor. "Now, after over 120 years of the most extensive and painstaking geological exploration of every continent and ocean bottom, the picture is infinitely more vivid and complete than it was in 1859. Formations have been discovered containing hundreds of billions of fossils and our museums now are filled with over 100 million fossils of 250,000 different species. The availability of this profusion of hard scientific data should permit objective investigators to determine if Darwin was on the right track. What is the picture which the fossils have given us? ... The gaps between major groups of organisms have been growing even wider and more undeniable. They can no longer be ignored or rationalized away with appeals to imperfection of the fossil record." Luther D. Sunderland, Darwin's Enigma (1988), Fossils and Other Problems, 4th edition, Master Books, p. 9 "The evidence we find in the geological record is not nearly as compatible with Darwinian natural selection as we would like it to be .... We now have a quarter of a million fossil species but the situation hasn't changed much. The record of evolution is surprisingly jerky and, ironically, we have even fewer examples of evolutionary transition than in Darwin's time ... so Darwin's problem has not been alleviated". Evolutionist David Raup, Curator of Geology at Chicago's Field Museum of Natural History "... Every paleontologist knows that most new species, genera, and families, and that nearly all categories above the level of family appear in the record suddenly and are not led up to by known, gradual, completely continuous transitional sequences.” George Gaylord Simpson (evolutionist), The Major Features of Evolution, New York, Columbia University Press, 1953 p. 360. "No wonder paleontologists shied away from evolution for so long. It seems never to happen. Assiduous collecting up cliff faces yields zigzags, minor oscillations, and the very occasional slight accumulation of change over millions of years, at a rate too slow to really account for all the prodigious change that has occurred in evolutionary history. When we do see the introduction of evolutionary novelty, it usually shows up with a bang, and often with no firm evidence that the organisms did not evolve elsewhere! Evolution cannot forever be going on someplace else. Yet that's how the fossil record has struck many a forlorn paleontologist looking to learn something about evolution." - Niles Eldredge , "Reinventing Darwin: The Great Evolutionary Debate," 1996, p.95 "The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology." Stephen Jay Gould, Professor of Geology and Paleontology at Harvard University and the leading spokesman for evolutionary theory in America prior to his recent . "As Niles Eldredge and Stephen Jay Gould pointed out almost three decades ago, the general pattern for the evolution of diversity (as shown by the fossil record) follows precisely this pattern: a burst of rapid diversity following a major ecological change, and then a gradual decline in diversity over relatively long periods of time." Allen MacNeill PhD.; Teaches introductory biology and evolution at Cornell University in Ithaca, NY. The following article is unique in that is shows the principle of Genetic Entropy being obeyed in the Trilobites, over the 250 million year fossil history of their life on earth (Note: the Trilobites appeared suddenly at the very beginning of the Cambrian explosion with no evidence of transmutation from the "simple" creatures that preceded them). http://www.terradaily.com/reports/The_Cambrian_Many_Forms_999.html As you can see, the fossil record is overwhelmingly characterized by suddenness and stability, as well as conforming precisely to the principle of Genetic Entropy (loss of information) when closely scrutinized for loss of diversity over long periods of time. For creatures who have lived in the ocean this fact is extremely clear, because their bones are fossilized in the ocean sediments very quickly. Unfortunately for land creatures, the fossil record is much harder to properly discern due to the rapid disintegration of animals who die on land. The large variety of hominid (man or ape-like) fossils that we do have piece-meal records of are characterized by overlapping histories of “distinctively different and stable” hominid species during the entire time, and the entire geography, each hominid species is found in the fossil record. There is never a transition between ANY of the different hominid species no matter where, or in what era, the hominid fossils are found. "If you brought in a smart scientist from another discipline and showed him the meagre evidence we've got he'd surely say, "forget it; there isn't enough to go on." David Pilbeam, Harvard University paleoanthropologist: from Richard E. Leakey's book, The Making of Mankind, Sphere Books Limited, Barcelona, 1982, p. 43. "If pressed about man's ancestry, I would have to unequivocally say that all we have is a huge question mark. To date, there has been nothing found to truthfully purport as a transitional species to man, including Lucy, since 1470 was as old and probably older. If further pressed, I would have to state that there is more evidence to suggest an abrupt arrival of man rather than a gradual process of evolving". Richard Leakey, world's foremost paleo-anthropologist, in a PBS documentary, 1990. Note: The hominid fossil record has now become even more confused, of any imaginary transitional scenario, since Dr. Leakey made this frank, but honest, admission. Israeli Researchers: 'Lucy' is not direct ancestor of humans Apr 16, 2007 http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1176152801536 New Fossil Ape May Shake Human Family Tree August 22, 2007 http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/08/070822-fossil-ape.html http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/origin_of_man.html As Richard Leakey, the leading hominid fossil expert in the world admitted, if he were pressed, he would have to admit the hard evidence suggests the abrupt arrival of man in the fossil record. Yet if you were to ask an average person if we have evolved from apes he will tell you of course we have and wonder why you would ask such a stupid question, since “everyone knows” this is proven in the fossil record. One hard fact in the fossil record that is not disputed by most naturalists is the fact that man is the youngest distinct species of all species to suddenly appear in the fossil record. I find the fact that man has the scientifically accepted youngest history of any fossil in the fossil record to be extremely interesting and compelling to the position held by the anthropic hypothesis. Though a naturalist may try to inconclusively argue fruit flies or some other small types of animals have evolved into distinct new species since that time, he cannot produce evidence for a genetically and morphologically unique animal with a fossil record younger than mans.bornagain77
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Jerry 41-
You can certainly believe what you want but the best that has been offered is one with millions of years between fossils and substantial differences between each of the intermediaries.
Why does the existence of long gaps make the series less convincing? Do you not agree with the conclusion that the members of the series are related?congregate
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