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Darwinist Theodosius Dobzhansky was NOT an orthodox Christian believer!

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I cannot believe I am hearing this nonsense again! The debate over the teaching of purposeless evolution in the school system retails more urban legends than a group of high school girls smoking in the women’s can.

In the Correspondence section of Nature, we can read, from U Kutschera , Institute of Biology, University of Kassel, Heinrich-Plett-Strasse 40, D-34109 Kassel, Germany (Nature 443, 26(7 September 2006) | doi:10.1038/443026b), yet another defence of Theodosius Dobzhansky, as a Darwinist poster boy for theistic or even Christian faith, sort of:

Dogma, not faith, is the barrier to scientific enquiry

[ … ]

He collaborated for many years with Ernst Mayr, who, when asked about his religious views, replied: “I am an atheist. There is nothing that supports the idea of a personal God. On the other hand, famous evolutionists such as Dobzhansky were firm believers in a personal God. He would work as a scientist all week and then on Sunday get down on his knees and pray to God” (Skeptic 8, 76-82; 2000.

In about 1950, Dobzhansky and Mayr founded our modern ‘atheistic’ evolutionary theory. Their work showed that Christians and atheists can cooperate to develop scientific theories, as long as religious dogma is not mixed up with facts and experimental data. Unfortunately, this is exactly what young-Earth creationists and intelligent-design theorists are doing. They should read the 1973 essay in which Dobzhansky – an open-minded, non-dogmatic theist – thoroughly refuted their irrational claims.

Dobzhansky was, of course, free to believe whatever he wanted, but in what sense was he a Christian or a theist?

Australian biologist Stephen E. Jones, who keeps up with these things better than anyone I know, has the goods on Dobzhansky’s real state of faith. He writes me,

Dobzhansky really was an orthodox believer. That is, if you don’t count “fundamental beliefs of traditional religion, such as the existence of a personal God and of life beyond physical death”!:

and quotes :

Dobzhansky was a religious man, although he apparently rejected fundamental beliefs of traditional religion, such as the existence of a personal God and of life beyond physical death. His religiosity was grounded on the conviction that there is meaning in the universe. He saw that meaning in the fact that evolution has produced the stupendous diversity of the living world and has progressed from primitive forms of life to mankind. Dobzhansky held that, in man, biological evolution has transcended itself into the realm of self-awareness and culture. He believed that somehow mankind would eventually evolve into higher levels of harmony and creativity. He was a metaphysical optimist.” (Ayala, F.J. & Fitch, W.M., Genetics and the origin of species: An introduction,” Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences USA, Vol. 94, July 1997, pp.7691-7697, p.7693.

Now, I have to admit, I smile when I think of the middle Americans who go away from a meeting with the Darwinist spokesfolks, vastly relieved to hear that Dobzhansky was a “religious man,” and then they can go back to sanctified materialism with a good conscience. They certainly do not want to know that Dobzhansky’s views would hardly qualify him to be considered a Christian, let alone Orthodox, because the basic statements of the Creed stand in fundamental opposition to them.

Steve Jones offers some more information that might help:

Those who really understand Darwinism, but still have spiritual inclinations, have the option of making a religion out of evolution. Theodosius Dobzhansky – Gould’s prime example of a Christian evolutionist – actually exemplified the religious dimension of Darwinism. Dobzhansky discarded the traditional Christian concept of God, followed Teilhard de Chardin in spiritualizing the evolutionary process, and worshipped the glorious future of evolution. … See Francisco Ayala, `Nothing in biology makes sense except the light of evolution,’ _The Journal of Heredity_, vol. 68, pp.3, 9 (Jan.-Feb. 1977). Ayala described his teacher’s religion as follows: `Dobzhansky was a religious man, although he apparently rejected fundamental beliefs of traditional religion, such as the existence of a personal God and of life beyond physical death. His religiosity was grounded on the conviction that there is meaning in the universe. He saw that meaning in the fact that evolution has produced the stupendous diversity of the living world and has progressed from primitive forms of life to mankind. Dobzhansky held that, in man, biological evolution has transcended itself into the realm of self awareness and culture. He believed that somehow mankind would eventually evolve into higher levels of harmony and creativity.'” (Phillip E. Johnson, “Response to Gould”, Origins Research, Access Research Network, Vol. 15, No. 1, Spring/Summer 1993, pp. 10-11. )

also from Johnson:

The leading Darwinist authorities are frank about the incompatibility of their theory with any meaningful concept of theism when they are in friendly territory, but for strategic reasons they sometimes choose to blur the message. When social theorist Irving Kristol published a New York Times column in 1986 accusing Darwinists of manifesting doctrinaire antitheism, for example, Stephen Jay Gould responded in Discover magazine with a masterpiece of misdirection. [Gould, S.J., “Darwinism Defined: The Difference Between Fact and Theory,” Discover, January 1987, pp. 64-70] Quoting nineteenth century preacher Henry Ward Beecher, Gould proclaimed that ‘Design by wholesale is grander than design by retail,’ neglecting to inform his audience that Darwinism repudiates design in either sense To prove that Darwinism is not hostile to ‘religion,’ Gould cited the example of Theodosius Dobzhansky, whom he described as `the greatest evolutionist of our century, and a lifelong Russian Orthodox.’ As Gould knew very well, Dobzhansky’s religion was evolutionary naturalism, which he spiritualized after the manner of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin. A eulogy published by Dobzhansly’s pupil Francisco Ayala in 1977 described the content of Dobzhansky’s religion like this: `Dobzhansky was a religious man, although he apparently rejected fundamental beliefs of traditional religion, such as the existence of a personal God and of life beyond physical death. His religiosity was grounded on the conviction that there is meaning in the universe. He saw that meaning in the fact that evolution has produced the stupendous diversity of the living world and has progressed from primitive forms of life to mankind. Dobzhansky held that, in man, biological evolution has transcended itself into the realm of self- awareness and culture. He believed that somehow mankind would eventually 44 Darwinism and Theism evolve into higher levels of harmony and creativity.’ [Ayala, F.J., “Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution,” Journal of Heredity , Vol. 68, January-February 1977, pp. 3, 9] Evolution is thoroughly compatible with religion-when the object of worship is evolution.” (Johnson, P.E., “Darwinism and Theism”, in Buell J. & Hearn V., eds., “Darwinism: Science or Philosophy?” , Foundation for Thought and Ethics: Richardson TX, 1994, pp.43-44.)

So now you know what to think when you hear someone retailing this “Dobzhansky as believer” nonsense.

Comments
The plan of salvation is described plainly in Eze 33. The new birth is described plainly in Eze 37. Blessings ZeroZero
September 10, 2006
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Dave - you also commented a few times that Paul isn't God. Quite right! However, do you deny or accept that Christ himself converted Paul and used Paul for His purposes, and that if Paul or any of the other Apostles had taught a different gospel than Jesus had intended, that Jesus wouldn't have come back and literally had a "come to Jesus" meeting with them to straighten it out? In fact, God sent the Holy Spirit to the apostles a number of times to clarify issues for them. Paul isn't God, but he was God's messenger, and I don't think God would have allowed Paul to further his own agenda or get the message all wrong.EdH
September 10, 2006
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Dave, (man, I hope the slight HTML tags work...) When one loses one’s faith he is not automatically ejected from his Christian church nor is he encouraged to stop calling himself a Christian. IMO there’s a lot more about being a Christian than unquestioning faith that Christ is the Son of God incarnate. One can believe, as I do, that Christ set an example in moral behavior for us to follow in our lives and regardless of divine origins or not the example is worthy in and of itself. Well, you bring up a good point. But I suppose, to take things to an extreme, you could say anything and then follow up with "and I consider myself a Christian." I think Christ set an excellent moral example for us to follow, but his teachings don't allow us to stop there. If you believe he said and did anything as recorded in the bible, then you must conclude that he is divine and the Son of God, that he is a liar, or that he is a madman. His statements didn't allow for middle ground. Back to the question of what can you call a Christian. Well, I can't give a conclusive answer, Acts 11:19-26 is the first place you see the term "Christian" in the bible as being used to describe a disciple. Each religion or philosophy can have its disciples, but disciples of Christ, ie. Christians, are generally through to believe his doctrine, rest on his sacrifice, imbibe his Spirit and imitate his example. That brief list is taken from Easton's Bible Dictionary, and it is pretty clear, to me at least, Luke 14:26-33 covers this quite nicely and comprehensively. John 1:12ff covers this as well. It is those that are dead in Christ that will be resurrected (1 Th 4:16), a teaching that explicitly contradicts anyone who claims there is no afterlife. I daresay most of us that are middle-aged or older were raised as Christians in North America and some of us have lost our faith for one reason or another but still try to conduct ourselves according to our upbringing in moral matters. We still have Christian weddings, Christian funerals, baptise our children, and otherwise participate in church activities and rituals. A central theme in the bible is God's love, His grace and His sacrifice, and much of the New Testament teachings, and from Christ specifically, are to show people (the Pharisees in particular) that going through the motions of ceremony is not the point at all, It is love for God (the greatest commandment, remember?) and if you love God, you'll have faith in Him, and if you have faith in Him, then your works will show it - James 2:14ff. It isn't the ceremony and works that give you faith and then in turn give you love, for which you are given grace. I know many people who fit that description. Moreover, I was taught as a youngster in Baptist bible study that once you're saved it’s irrevocable. Is that not true? Yeah, I know about this teaching and I simply cannot get behind it. First of all, even if "once saved, always saved" is true, how do you know you were saved in the past - truly saved? Only God knows if you are saved, as He knows if your name is written in the Book of Life. Now, if you assume, as I do, that God has middle knowledge, that God knows how you will act in the future, and that is part of His judgement on you. Remember, He is outside of space and time, so has already seen the end. Jesus shows a great example of this middle knowledge in Matt 11:21-22. So, if one was a saved Christian (I consider saved to be redundant) but now renounces that Jesus was divine, and is our salvation, I don't think God is going to say "well, they were saved at one time, so they have a ticket to heaven. As to your personal experience Dave, I also consider a crisis of faith to be different from a loss of faith. I don't know what you have experienced, and perhaps you don't know either. I too have had dark times of doubt, but I must admit I have never been so much in doubt that I renounced Christ's divinity. Now, before anyone goes "Whoa! Who are you to judge?!?" please note I am not judging people, but their actions, and there is a world of difference. First of all, I don't know if Dobzhansky was a Christian. If the words Ms. O'Leary quoted from various articles she was referring to who no doubt are referring to other conversations, are true, and Dobzhansky really did believe Christ was not divine, there is no afterlife, which makes a mockery of the Gospels (Gal 1:6-9), then how can that person really be a Christian in anything but self title only? Again, am I judging? No. Matt 7:1-6 (so many stop at verse 1 here), Luke 17:3, not only give me the right to be discerning, they command it. Hos 4:14 is quite explicit in this. I can't look at someone and say "You are not a Christian, and you are therefore damned." I can look at someone though and say "your words say this, your words deny that, your actions convey this message, and those are not the actions of a Christian as Christ and the apostles and the rest of scripture teach" but I stop there. I know that no one enters heaven except through the Son, (John 14:6). I take that verse to mean not that I can get to heaven through Christ, but that through Christ, God will bring me to heaven. By that I mean, I absolutely think there will be non-Christians in heaven. Moses wasn't a Christian. Abraham wasn't even a Jew, nor were Noah and Adam. In the post-resurrection times though, I find it hard to believe that there will be many people who outwardly contradict the gospel allowed into heaven. I certainly think there will be those that have never heard the gospel or were never really taught it that God will bring in through Christ - Rom 1:18-23. Dave, I hope I have cleared up some of my thoughts on this and why I believe the way I do on this matter. I stand by my statement to Carlos, but I hope I am humble enough to recognize that I may be in error on some of the finer points and would love to discuss them further.EdH
September 10, 2006
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Dave -- ***What perplexes me most about the whole thing is why God seemingly needed human messengers and scribes when he could have published the ten commandments engraved on the face of the moon in any number of written languages. Do you really think people would obey them or believe in Him, if he did? I don't. What you suggest is almost akin to what occurred in the Books of Moses, and Children of Israel were notably disobedient and disbelieving. Anyway, concerning changing images on the moon, what I think would happen is priests would use those images to terrorize their flocks and have them worship and serve them. There would be no scientific revolution or free thought. In any case I was saved as a child according to the tenets of one large Christian denomination and once saved is saved forever. Is that not true? That's the Calvinist view. Catholics and and Arminians (which is most protestant U.S. churches) say no.tribune7
September 10, 2006
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Hi Ekstasis, Let me address your points separately: "1. It assumes that, through undirect[ed], random mutations the human brain could develop the capacity for the sort of capabilities you raise, e.g., tracking, assessing honesty, and creating methods to penalize such behavior." There's an abundance of evidence that variations in human intelligence, personality and behavior have a strong genetic component (especially as revealed by studies of identical twins separated at birth). Regardless of how you believe these genetic variations get into the population, I think you can see that once they're there, natural selection will favor some over others, and that the favored ones will come to dominate the population over time. "2. While humans are certainly concerned about what others think and what consequences they may bring about, our obsession appears not to limited to this. We truly are concerned that, somehow, our behavior is judged in a universal sense beyond the opinions of others, whether that be a personal God or the universal force as defined by Buddhists. Now, of course our sense could be fictional, imaginary. But then, why does this fiction exist?" If natural selections "decides" that a certain behavior is beneficial, it will encourage that behavior. What better way of encouraging people to behave a certain way than by making them feel they are being judged according to a cosmic standard? They will feel happy when their behavior is up to snuff, sad or guilty when it is not, and so they will tend to toe the line. "3. Some people still violate the standards of right and wrong, as held universally by all societies and cultures at all times, e.g., murder is wrong. Only those who violate and get away with it would succeed. So, we should find a strong correlation between intelligence and criminal behavior, i.e., criminals should tend to be the most intelligent individuals. Yet, if anything, we find the opposite correlation." I think you would probably agree with me that intelligence is a benefit to criminals and cooperators alike. The question is, who benefits more from intelligence, the criminal or the cooperator? If it's the criminal, then natural selection has no "reason" to turn smart criminals into smart cooperators, but every reason to turn smart cooperators into smart criminals. The number of smart criminals should increase. On the other hand, if intelligence is more of a benefit to cooperators, then the opposite should happen. Smart cooperators should increase at the expense of smart criminals. This is what we see in society. Why is intelligence more valuable to a cooperator than to a criminal? Antagonism is a zero-sum (or even a negative-sum) game. The intelligence of one antagonist is working at cross-purposes to the intelligence of the other, and they tend to cancel out. Cooperation unites separate intelligences in pursuit of a common goal. They reinforce rather than cancelling each other out. Cooperation thus tends to pay off more handsomely. This asymmetry leads us to expect that intelligent cooperators will be more common than intelligent criminals. "4. While your theory could possibly explain why people would refrain from wrongdoing in advance of the act, how would it explain our tremendous guilt after the fact, even if we are not discovered. In fact, we feel more guilt when not discovered. Darwinian evolution should instead reward us for getting away with it. After all, those who get away with it are more likely to send our genes into the next generation." Not necessarily. Those who get away with it once may be encouraged to try again. If they're eventually "caught", the price they pay in terms of punishment, ostracism, social sanction, etc., may outweigh the benefit they received from cheating (and getting away with it) in the short run. Regarding guilt, see my answer to your point #2 above.Karl Pfluger
September 10, 2006
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Did he? I think so; at least that's how I interpret him. Here's a link to the text under discussion: Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of EvolutionCarlos
September 9, 2006
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Did he?avocationist
September 9, 2006
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Darwinism has long ago sparked a disagreement of some religionists, and sometimes Darwinists point out that many evolution believers are religious. It was disingenuous to include Dobzhansky among them, thus this discussion. Was it disingenuous of Dobzhansky to include himself among the religious Darwinists?Carlos
September 9, 2006
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First off, Carlos and BarryA I do not watch television, except the occasional animal planet. I do not know this stargate you refer to, but I do read books. Ekstasis, You state what Christian mystics think, but I am a Christian mystic, and I deeply question the kind of personal God most people talk about, and yet you then equate this with materialism, which shows you have misunderstood completely. The doubt about ascribing personal characteristics to God have to do with seeing that if God is infinite, he cannot be an ego, as that is a contradiction of terms. If God does have "love, intention, will, a mind," it is in a different sense than we imagine. I do not think that Jesus claimed the kind of divinity that has been ascribed to him. There are many who argue thus, and it is certainly true that many early churches did not have the modern understanding of his divinity. BarryA, Another meaning is what I would call traditional Christian. This is a person who accepts the basic tenants of the 2,000 year-old Christian faith. EdH seems to fall within this category. What does it mean to accept the basic tenants of the faith? It has been formulated as those tenants that have been confessed everywhere, at all times, by all Christians. I basically agree with your arguments, which is why I generally don't call myself a Christian, but my readings have shown me that there was great disagreement and revision of beliefs, and that which we call the creeds was voted upon, argued over, fought about even violently, backpeddled upon and etc. for centuries. Ditto for scripture. And, one reason I don't call myself a Christian is that I don't agree with the Trinity doctrine, yet even there the creeds do not specify that God is three persons. And anyway, there was a change to the accepted creed by the Catholic church regarding the trinity, which so upset the eastern Orthodox that in 1054 they split over it, as well as over papal assertions. SteveB, Romans 3 says, “But now God has shown us a different way of being right in his sight–not by obeying the law but by the way promised in the Scriptures long ago. We are made right in God’s sight when we trust in Jesus Christ to take away our sins. And we all can be saved in this same way, no matter who we are or what we have done.” MY Romans 3 doesn't say anything quite like that. FRoss, remember back in the day when the I.D. movement was trying it’s hardest to hide the Christian foundation of its agenda? I’m glad to see it’s all out in the open now. As you are aware, Darwinism has long ago sparked a disagreement of some religionists, and sometimes Darwinists point out that many evolution believers are religious. It was disingenuous to include Dobzhansky among them, thus this discussion. It does not detract from the basic premise of ID.avocationist
September 9, 2006
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Ben Z, No, the problem is not that “Christian” is meaningless. The problem is that it has too many meanings depending upon how it is used. See my post in 18. The key is to distinguish between a class of people whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life (a finite number of people, the identity of whom God alone truly knows) and the class of people encompassed by the word “Christian” in modern English usage. They are not the same thing. *************************************************** How can one "follow" Christ or "know" Christ if God's son "Christ" is not yet born? Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne. Jhn 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world. It's not over til' the fat lady (pregnant wife) sings: Isa 54:1 Sing, O barren, thou [that] didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou [that] didst not travail with child: for more [are] the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD. Isa 54:5 For thy Maker [is] thine husband; the LORD of hosts [is] his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. Life is all about home and family. The Lion has a wife and the Lamb has a mother. Blessings ZeroZero
September 9, 2006
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Ben Z, No, the problem is not that “Christian” is meaningless. The problem is that it has too many meanings depending upon how it is used. See my post in 18. The key is to distinguish between a class of people whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life (a finite number of people, the identity of whom God alone truly knows) and the class of people encompassed by the word “Christian” in modern English usage. They are not the same thing. You lament the fact that if we do this the classification ceases effectively to classify. Yes, that’s true, but to a large degree that is what has happened -- just as with the word “gentlemen” to which you and Lewis allude – and English speakers as a whole appear to be quite indifferent to your (and my) lamentation (and to His Lamentations for that matter). The answer to all of this is when you use the word you need to make sure people know in what sense you are using it, which brings us back to the original reason for this post – i.e., Denyse calling down a writer who was trying to deceive by equivocating.BarryA
September 9, 2006
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My post to this thread didn't even make it to the "cutting room floor" I posted it in my blogs: http://www.bloglines.com/blog/hereoisreal Blessings ZeroZero
September 9, 2006
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"I very much hope that you weren’t thinking of me when you said this, Ben. While I was denying that there are necessary and sufficient conditions for someone’s being a Christian (let alone a “good Christian”), the same holds true for all socio-historical identities." I was thinking of you, but not just you. C.S. Lewis wrote about words becoming meaningless and the word Christian. If the word Christian can be wahtever someone wants it to be, such as the word gentleman has turned into (a word that doesn't really describe anything, but is more like a judgement) then I'll agree with you. But that "No True Scotsman" argument is referring to a term that describes geographical location. You're a "scotsman" based on birth, and the fallacy is obvious. Christianity is a term that has real criteria. If someone is Christian because they define themselves that way, and can give up ANY belief and still be a Christian, it's meaningless.Ben Z
September 9, 2006
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"Duplicate comment detected; it looks as though you've already said that!" Yes, three times, but it hasn't been posted. ZeroZero
September 9, 2006
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Avocationist, you've been watching too much Stargate SG-1 on the SciFi Channel.BarryA
September 9, 2006
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My post just bounced, my first to do so. I suppose because I quoted Zec 9:9 so I'll try again with it modified. ********************************************************** I believe in an IDOL, Intelligent designer of life. The post below is CSI, a clear sign of ID. As I have said on this sight before, "IMO, the best proof of ID is symmetry." If you want to bother, it's on the "cutting room floor". Painting a picture by numbers: Jesus said, "I have chosen you twelve." (one is a booger) The first 12 = 3 x God The second 12 = 3 x Jesus The first, second, and third 12 total 666 ( 9 x Jesus ) The first 12 + the third 12 = 6 x Jesus 12 + (6 x Jesus) = 12 x gold (God + 12) The 3rd 12 + 12 foundations = (6 x God) + (3 x Jesus) or 3 x AZ The first, second, third, and forth 12 (666 +12) = (3 x God) + (3 x Jesus) + (3 x AZ) Check out a roulette table. Exd 28:29 And Aaron shall bear the names of the children of Israel in the breastplate of judgment upon his heart, when he goeth in unto the holy [place], for a memorial before the LORD continually. I = the first letter in the bible. N = the second, and also the last, letter in the bible I = 9 N = 14 (I + 5) 9 x 14 = 126 (AZ) AZ = alpha & omega AZ = first x last AZ = beginning x end I + N = end I + N = I Am Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. AZ = God between God (126) Exd 25:22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims... God + 12 = Gold Exd 25:17 And thou shalt make a mercy seat [of] pure gold: two cubits and a half [shall be] the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof. (AZ + half AZ) x (AZ + Love) = IRON (I x R x O x N) 34,020 The above numbers and the bible verses below all paint the same picture: Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne. Eze 22:30 And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none. Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an AZ, and upon a colt the foal of an AZ. Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. (AZ under) "Word" x 3 AZ = Love x G x O x D or AZ x IT or AZ x (AZ + love) Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Blessings Zero Ps Jesus said, "There shall be one fold." Jesus "folded" = 37 See Psa 37:37 AZ folded once = booger 7 fold/2 = zeroZero
September 9, 2006
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Avocationist, But - unquestioning obedience to authority demanded by Caananite and Egyptian deities? Methinks thou ought to read the OT again, with a less partial eye, toward the words and actions of Jehovah. I was thinking that one might object along these lines. In response, consider Abraham's argument with God in Genesis 18. The Bible at least begins a moralization of religion -- though it hardly ends there -- and arguably the real moralization of Judaism only gets underway after the destruction of the second Temple, and when study and prayer take the place of sacrifice at the heart of Jewish life. The NT does something similar; consider, after all, the line from Matthew: "it is not what goes into a man's mouth that defiles him, but what comes out" (Matthew 15:11). I think a lot of the reason for the terrible confusion of the ancient Greeks, and also our own, comes from the strong possibility that there were human-like extraterrestrials on this planet for thousands of years who took a hand in genetically creating us and completely enthralled us. That is why the gods were so similar to us, so capricious, and why nearly all ancient empires considered their kingship line to have come from gods or demigods, with small g’s of course - it was because they did. And why they all married their half-sisters to try to keep up the line. Uh, isn't the premise of Stargate SG-1?Carlos
September 9, 2006
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Carlos, I agree and said the same on our other thread. But - unquestioning obedience to authority demanded by Caananite and Egyptian deities? Methinks thou ought to read the OT again, with a less partial eye, toward the words and actions of Jehovah. I have to tell you the truth. I think a lot of the reason for the terrible confusion of the ancient Greeks, and also our own, comes from the strong possibility that there were human-like extraterrestrials on this planet for thousands of years who took a hand in genetically creating us and completely enthralled us. That is why the gods were so similar to us, so capricious, and why nearly all ancient empires considered their kingship line to have come from gods or demigods, with small g's of course - it was because they did. And why they all married their half-sisters to try to keep up the line. Later, the concept of divine got supernaturalized when the time of the 'gods' became more of a distant memory, so they were considered a fantasy of our stupid and credulous ancestors. Also, the antics of these high-tech aliens got built up until they merged with the capability of the Supreme Intelligence and Creator of the universe. The real God has suffered much insult from the awful comparison.avocationist
September 9, 2006
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Ah, it always warms my heart when non-Christians lecture Christians on who is and isn’t a real Christian because they happen to be the experts in the matter. I very much hope that you weren't thinking of me when you said this, Ben. While I was denying that there are necessary and sufficient conditions for someone's being a Christian (let alone a "good Christian"), the same holds true for all socio-historical identities.Carlos
September 9, 2006
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It depends on what one means by an "idol," right? Historically, idolatry is bound with unquestioning obedience to authority; the Canaanite gods, for example, as depicted in the Old Testament, or the gods of the Egyptians. (OK, not exactly an unbiased source, but still.) The Greeks praised the Olympian gods who were basically themselves, idealized and perfected. Spiritually, lots of people believe that they are worshipping the true God when in fact their hearts are given over to worship of an idealized self-image, or idealized daddy-figure, or an idealized version of their particular community or nation. They find it unimaginable that God could want for them anything other than what they already want for themselves. That is idolatry, and no one is immune to it.Carlos
September 9, 2006
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Someone said, "in which an idol-worshipping Hindu can be called a Christian," Since there are no Hindus here to defend themselves, I'd like to point out that Hinduism ultimately is the most monotheistic religion of all, teaching that Brahman is the "One without a second." It is questionable to me whether anyone has ever truly worshipped idols. Competing groups like to defame one another. If Hindus are so accused, so must we accuse the Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox. I have revered and kissed and lit candles and prayed before many an icon, but I never confused that conduit to the members of the "church triumphant" or the divine with the painted wood itself.avocationist
September 9, 2006
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And Thomas Aquinas says that it's better to leave the Church if you don't agree with one of its teachings, because even if you're wrong it's just a failor of logic and not of morality, as in if you had stayed in the Church.Ben Z
September 9, 2006
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Ah, it always warms my heart when non-Christians lecture Christians on who is and isn't a real Christian because they happen to be the experts in the matter. Nevermind that the topic title says ORTHODOX.Ben Z
September 9, 2006
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Karl Pfluger, While in theory what you say seems to make sense, it seems to have some weaknesses: 1. It assumes that, through undirect, random mutations the human brain could develop the capacity for the sort of capabilities you raise, e.g., tracking, assessing honesty, and creating methods to penalize such behavior. While this may seem simplistic because we practice it every day, the actual mental steps that must be put together is staggering. In fact, one would suspect that irreducible complexity may come into play. And, this cannot simply be cultural adaptations, it also requires a hard-wired capacity in our brains to allow such thinking to take place. 2. While humans are certainly concerned about what others think and what consequences they may bring about, our obsession appears not to limited to this. We truly are concerned that, somehow, our behavior is judged in a universal sense beyond the opinions of others, whether that be a personal God or the universal force as defined by Buddhists. Now, of course our sense could be fictional, imaginary. But then, why does this fiction exist? 3. Some people still violate the standards of right and wrong, as held universally by all societies and cultures at all times, e.g., murder is wrong. Only those who violate and get away with it would succeed. So, we should find a strong correlation between intelligence and criminal behavior, i.e., criminals should tend to be the most intelligent individuals. Yet, if anything, we find the opposite correlation. 4. While your theory could possibly explain why people would refrain from wrongdoing in advance of the act, how would it explain our tremendous guilt after the fact, even if we are not discovered. In fact, we feel more guilt when not discovered. Darwinian evolution should instead reward us for getting away with it. After all, those who get away with it are more likely to send our genes into the next generation.Ekstasis
September 9, 2006
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Ekstasis writes: "So, how does the Darwinian evolutionist explain this human obsession with rightness and judgment? Oh sure, they will raise the usual suspect social evolution hypotheses — but does it not strike one as a bit implausible? I mean, shouldn’t we be much more focused on the sorts of things that will see our genes safely to the next generation?" Ekstasis, What's wrong with the evolutionary explanation of our "obsession with rightness and judgment"? Why do you think such a sense is not the sort of thing that will "see our genes safely to the next generation?" Homo sapiens is a species which practices reciprocal altruism. Given that, it makes perfect sense that we humans will: 1) carefully track who is to be trusted, and who isn't; 2) move people from the first category to the second when they behave against one's interests; 3) move people from the second category to the first when they "earn one's trust"; 4) pay attention to other people's assessments of an individual's trustworthiness; 5) make pariahs of those who consistently betray us or our friends; 6) feel bad when we behave in a way that hurts our friends or makes us appear to be untrustworthy; ...and many others. Skeptical? Take each of the above characteristics, imagine a population without it, and then imagine what will happen if you introduce some individuals having a genetic predisposition toward the characteristic in question. For example, suppose we have a population of cooperating people who don't keep track of who can they can trust and who they can't (let's call them "gullibles"). In such a population, "cheaters" will arise, because a cheater can get the benefits of cooperation without paying the costs. Since nobody notices or keeps track of their untrustworthiness, the cheaters thrive at the expense of the gullibles. Now introduce a genetic variation into the population which makes some individuals better at tracking and remembering who is good to them and who isn't (let's call them "trackers"). These individuals will quickly cease cooperating with the cheaters, because they will notice and remember the consistent cheating. Instead they will cooperate with others who cooperate with them. The cheaters get the benefits of interacting with the gullibles, but are rejected by the trackers. The "gullibles" benefit when they interact with the "trackers" or with other "gullibles", but pay when they interact with the cheaters. The trackers benefit in almost all of their interactions, once they've paid the price of figuring out who the cheaters. The result is that the trackers come to dominate the population. Try it with some of the other traits I listed.Karl Pfluger
September 9, 2006
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Organisms do all sorts of things that ensure the continuation of the species. Why can't "the human obsession with rightness and judgment" be one of those things? (I think that the story is much more complicated than that, because I do think that culture has permitted us to partially transcend the constraints of strictly Darwinian evolution. But since culture is itself an adaptation -- and a highly successful one, within a very narrow range of environments -- anything like an adequate story which could integrate nature and culture would have to be much more complicated.)Carlos
September 8, 2006
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Now, it seems to me that all of these great comments, with all the diverse perspectives, illustrate the deep and burning desire that we humans naturally have to be morally right and justified, or to address how the problems of our wrongs can be resolved and swept away. So, how does the Darwinian evolutionist explain this human obsession with rightness and judgment? Oh sure, they will raise the usual suspect social evolution hypotheses -- but does it not strike one as a bit implausible? I mean, shouldn't we be much more focused on the sorts of things that will see our genes safely to the next generation?Ekstasis
September 8, 2006
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It's been a long time since I've looked at prototype theory; thanks for the link!Carlos
September 8, 2006
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An atheist is going to deny evidence for design until the cows come home, because of the fear that that design might come from a higher designer he might be accountable to. Not if intelligent design and theism are really as detachable as people around here want to admit. All that an atheistic IDer need say is that the intelligent designer was not supernatural. There could have been an advanced alien race which was responsible for producing us, such as the Progenitors. (Note: I'm referring to the Star Trek Progenitors, not to David Brin's Progenitors. Do not be confused!)Carlos
September 8, 2006
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Agreed--I'll take a Dawkins any day over those slippery fense straddlers. What Denyse decries, as I see it, is deceit—deliberate or unintentional. There’s not a dimes worth of difference between a Dobzhansky’s theism and a bona fide atheist’s atheism. He may have stood in awe of nature, of the Second Law of Thermodynamics (or something like that), but so do many atheists. So what’s the purpose of bringing up religion? Carlos says that “Christian” is not a "natural kind"—let me suggest that the category is vacuous when you include all those who appropriate the label (and so I don’t)—but if you’d like to be a little better forearmed for those “semantic” arguments that so often erupt, why not familiarize yourself with a little Prototype Semantics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prototype_semantics).Rude
September 8, 2006
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