Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Debunking The Old “There Is No Evidence of God” Canard

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Recently some of our opponents have trotted out the old, long-since debunked, unsupportable universal claim “there is no evidence of God”. Let me illustrate how this is just another emotionally-addicted, rhetorical maxim atheists cling to without any real thought in the matter.

Facts, as defined by Merriam-Webster:

something that truly exists or happens : something that has actual existence : a true piece of information”. According to Wiki, a scientific fact is: an objective and verifiable observation, in contrast with a hypothesis or theory, which is intended to explain or interpret facts.”

Merriam Webster says the evidence is

“something which shows that something else exists or is true”.

Obviously, “something else” is not directly observable as a fact, or else one wouldn’t need evidence for it.

Wiki says that scientific evidence is

That which serves to either support or counter a scientific theory or hypothesis.

People that claim to “go where the evidence leads” are fundamentally missing the fact that without an interpretive expectation, facts don’t lead anywhere. They are just brute facts that stand alone without any theoretical associations.

Theories explain or interpret facts, describing their place in a contextual framework.  Facts, when thusly interpreted, support or contradict those theories. Facts do not come with interpretations or conceptual frameworks. Interpretations exist in the mind of the individual considering a fact. Without a framework that contextualizes the facts in a system of expectations and meaning, facts are just brute sensory data. Facts don’t “lead” anwhere; they only lead where interpretations, intuition, logic or insight can support and understand them. Language itself categorizes the expression of facts into a systematic framework of expectations.

We expect facts to make sense within a consistent and reliable framework of coherent, causal space-time (an interpretive framework). We expect to find recognizable patterns. We expect our environment to have an understandable quality about it. We expect that we can make models that will not only explain facts, but predict them as well. We replace old models with ones that better explain and predict facts in a practical, useful manner.

What does it mean to say: “There is no evidence of god”, when any number of empirical facts can be interpreted favorably towards the existence of a god as commonly referred to as a supremely intelligent creator of the universe and source of goodness and moral law? Setting aside logical and moral arguments, personal experience, testimony and anecdote (all of which count as forms of evidence as I previously wrote about here), if one has a hypothesis that such a god exists, how can it be reasonable for atheists to claim that no physical facts can be interpreted to support the existence of that kind of god? Of course they can – billions do it every day.

Atheists do not have a copyright on how facts can be reasonably interpreted.  Much of the successful heuristic of modern science was founded entirely upon theistic expectations of a rationally understandable universe, metaphysical laws that governed the universe, and a god that favored elegance, efficiency and beauty.  They often referred to their scientific work as uncovering the mind of God.

Simply put, the atheist interprets certain sets of facts according to the expectation “there is no god”. The theist interprets those facts in light of the hypothesis that there is a god. Just because the atheist doesn’t consider the god hypothesis doesn’t mean that facts cannot be intepreted to support that hypothesis.

Take for instance the fine-tuning facts. Each of those force/material constants are facts. Scores of them appear to be fine-tuned for the existence of a universe that can support life. Take also for instance the advanced nano-technology of living cells. These facts can certainly be supportive of the hypothesis that an intelligent, creative god designed the universe and life. Now, throw in the logical arguments, anecdotes and the testimony of billions of people for thousands of years; it is a blatantly false lie or sheer denial to claim that there is “no” evidence for a god of some sort, when the term “evidence” means, among other things, an interpretation of facts that support a theory or hypothesis.  Evidence can also mean testimony; it can refer to circumstantial or anecdotal evidence; it can refer to logical, rational arguments in support of an assertion.

I’ve come to view many anti-ID advocates as having profound psychological resistance to anything that remotely points to the existence of a god of some sort. This cathexis seems to be a deep-rooted hostility towards the god concept in general that generates an almost hypnotic form of neuro-linguistic programming where they cannot see what is before them, and also leads them to see things that are not there.

Atheists/physicalists often talk about “believing what the evidence dictates”, but fail to understand that “evidence” is an interpretation of facts. Facts don’t “lead” anywhere in and of themselves; they carry with them no conceptual framework that dictates how they “should” fit into any hypothesis or pattern. Even the language by which one describes a fact necessarily frames that fact in a certain conceptual framework that may be counterproductive.

Atheists first preclude “god” from being an acceptable hypothesis, and then say “there is no evidence of god”. Well, Duh. The only way there could be evidence of god is if you first accept it as a hypothesis by which one interprets or explains facts.

“God” is a perfectly good hypothesis for explaining many facts especially in light of supporting testimonial, anecdotal, logical and circumstatial evidences. When an atheist says “there is no evidence for god”, what they are really saying (but are psychologically blind to it) is: There is no god, so there cannot be evidence for it. Their conclusion comes first, and so no evidence – in their mind, irrationally – can exist for that which does not – cannot – exist.

There is evidence that all sorts of things are true or exist; that doesn’t mean they actually exist, or are actually true – just that some facts can be interpreted to support the theory. To claim “there is no evidence for god” is absurd; atheists may not be convinced by the evidence, and they may not interpret the evidence in light of a “god hypothesis”. But to claim it is not evidence at all reveals uncompromising ideological denial. If one cannot even admit that there is evidence of god for those who interpret facts from that hypothesis, they cannot be reasoned with.

Comments
Having just finished reading all the posts---many of which were wonderfully expressed---some questions occurred to me. How do people really adopt a conviction or make a lifelong commitment? I mean really, and not how do they rationalize it later. Do people really, truly, and dispassionately evaluate all the evidence, or is that something they claim later to justify their position? People talk a lot about faith---faith in yourself, faith in humanity, faith in the future, even faith in internet security, the universe, and God. It sounds like feel-good advice, but what does it really mean? A similar word, trust, is a more practical word to many of us. Everyone trusts.
The cloud is the key, but we need technically enforced trust boundaries. Those who want to move to the cloud must have faith, but this faith needs to be grounded in fact. - from an internet security and encryption presentation at an RSA Conference, April 2015
But how can we be sure of our trust in light of the multitude of fakes, phonies, and scams, not to mention the more diabolical abuses that infest every facet of human activity? Some good methods for determining trust-worthiness include recommendations and anecdotal evidence, the reliability of the source, cross-examination, cross-checking through multiple sources, independent perspectives, being aware of the possibility of collusion, considering likelihoods and motives, and so on. Conversely, every fabrication, scam, and crime leaves a trail of evidence, and every subsequent cover-up generates its own trail of evidence that might eventually expose the lie. Nevertheless, we can't live life consumed with suspicion, so the primary methods most people depend on are personal experience, reliable testimonials, a chain of trust, and the same experience being repeated many times, which is called inductive inference. These are practical methods, though not infallible. We make friendships the same way. We meet someone and we like them. We hear good things about them from other people, and over time and through many occasions they prove themselves trustworthy. Thus, we come to assume that any subsequent slander against them is false. But what about trust in God? How and why would someone decide to trust in God and for what? Here's one way---eyewitness testimony:
And I will also be diligent that at any time after my departure you will be able to call these things to mind. For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such a voice having been brought to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased”— and we ourselves heard this voice brought from out of heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. - Simon, brother of Andrew, son of Jonah, Jewish fisherman, and disciple of Jesus in 2 Peter 1:15-18, NASB, literal Greek
The fact that the account is 2,000 years old and handed from person to person doesn't change whether it's true or not. If you believed Simon's statement, how would this change your life? -QQuerius
June 19, 2016
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GUN, the fundamental problem at work is that the declaration in question is tantamount to announcing a closed mind on a subject. I have already addressed what a more responsible view of warrant looks like. KFkairosfocus
June 19, 2016
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Sean Sami: I said;
This a collection of statements you agreed later (above) were not logically valid,
You said:
I did no such thing.
Sure you did. You originally made this comment @157:
I said I can’t trust the evidence for deities because it comes from an unreliable source (humans) and cannot be tested or verified. ... I said that claims about deities vary wildly. There are so many contradictory claims that none have credibility; at least not unless some deity shows up and sorts them out. That has never happened to my knowledge.
I pointed out that your statement was illogical (logically non-valid):
Just because claims about a thing vary wildly or are contradictory doesn’t mean that none of the claims have credibility; nor does it mean that none of the claims are logically valid; nor does it mean that all of the evidence for each claim is categorically equal. That’s a completely irrational non sequitur.
I'll also take the time now to point at another irrational aspect of that original post of yours where you said: "I said I can’t trust the evidence for deities because it comes from an unreliable source (humans) and cannot be tested or verified." If humans are an unreliable source, SS, what is going to "test or verify" the original evidence? If humans are unreliable sources of evidence, then you have no reliable sources of evidence for anything whatsoever. @186 you agreed with with what I said about the invalid logic in your commentary:
WJM: Just because claims about a thing vary wildly or are contradictory doesn’t mean that none of the claims have credibility; … SS: True. WJM: … nor does it mean that none of the claims are logically valid; … SS: True. WJM: … nor does it mean that all of the evidence for each claim is categorically equal. SS: True.
Thus agreeing that your statements in 157 were not logically valid. Now, you go on to make more logically unsupportable "arguments" further indicating that your position being protected by an irrational hyperskepticism. Just applying a little critical analysis shows how illogical your "argument" is. You said:
Yes. If testimony about China is reasonably consistent...
China is a big place, full of entirely different kinds of locations. Also, different people can come away with entirely different personal perspectives about China, which can easily lead to widely disparate testimony about China. Eyewitness testimony of a specific event in a specific place and time, such as criminal eyewitness testimony, is known to vary wildly and even be contradictory between witnesses. I'm sure you know this. What does "reasonably consistent" mean, then? Well, when a dozen people claim to have witnessed a murder, but they all disagree about what the suspect looked like, do we dismiss the idea that there was even a murder in the first place? Or do we take what they have all agreed upon and then work from there?
...and posits nothing about China which is beyond rational explanation,
I think you're mixing "rational" up with "scientific". There is nothing about god or the supernatural which defies rational explanation depending upon one's premises. There are many very good logical (rational) arguments for the existence of god. If you mean "scientific", there is plenty of scientific evidence for god (fine-tuning evidence).
then a person can credibly believe that China exists ever without being there.
So, if we have good rational arguments for the existence of god, good scientific evidence for the existence of god, and lots of testimonial evidence that god exists (but which suffers from the same endemic variances as all eyewitness testimony can), then it seems to me that it is possible to have a credible belief in god - if you applied the same rules of evidence to god that you do to anything else in life. I think you realize this because you try to give yourself cover:
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence;
Why would something you think is extraordinary require "extraordinary" evidence? Who gets to define what an extraordinary claim is, and who gets to define when the necessary measure of "extraordinary" evidence has been provided? That saying is just a rhetorical device used to dismiss any argument or evidence of god as being "not enough", when we certainly have enough evidence for at least a classical theism for any reasonable person. The testimonial evidence by itself - billions of people over thousands of years - is enough by itself, let alone the various logical and moral arguments and the fine tuning evidence.William J Murray
June 19, 2016
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KF,
Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary [==> ADEQUATE] evidence Cliffordian/Saganian evidentialism fails, not least by too often being an announcement of worldview level question-begging by stacking the deck on standard of evidence for what one wishes to disbelieve. A fallacy of the closed mind, in short. A more responsible view is that one seeks responsible warrant providing sufficient credibility to act on, without erecting self-serving double standards on required evidence.
No one disputes that “adequate” evidence is required. It’s true by definition. But is what is “adequate” always the same? I’m guessing if you saw a cat footprint outside, you’d believe that a cat stepped there. If you saw a dog footprint, you’d believe a dog stepped there. But if you saw what looked like a T-Rex footprint, I’m guessing you’d be skeptical. You'd need “more than the ordinary” amount of evidence that a T-Rex was roaming the neighborhood. What’s considered “adequate” suddenly changed.goodusername
June 19, 2016
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SS:
Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary [==> ADEQUATE] evidence
Cliffordian/Saganian evidentialism fails, not least by too often being an announcement of worldview level question-begging by stacking the deck on standard of evidence for what one wishes to disbelieve. A fallacy of the closed mind, in short. A more responsible view is that one seeks responsible warrant providing sufficient credibility to act on, without erecting self-serving double standards on required evidence. See Greenleaf in his justly famous Evidence, vol 1 ch 1:
Evidence, in legal acceptation, includes all the means by which any alleged matter of fact, the truth of which is submitted to investigation, is established or disproved . . . None but mathematical truth is susceptible of that high degree of evidence, called demonstration, which excludes all possibility of error [--> Greenleaf wrote almost 100 years before Godel], and which, therefore, may reasonably be required in support of every mathematical deduction. Matters of fact are proved by moral evidence alone; by which is meant, not only that kind of evidence which is employed on subjects connected with moral conduct, but all the evidence which is not obtained either from intuition, or from demonstration. In the ordinary affairs of life, we do not require demonstrative evidence, because it is not consistent with the nature of the subject, and to insist upon it would be unreasonable and absurd. The most that can be affirmed of such things, is, that there is no reasonable doubt concerning them. The true question, therefore, in trials of fact, is not whether it is possible that the testimony may be false, but, whether there is sufficient probability of its truth; that is, whether the facts are shown by competent and satisfactory evidence. Things established by competent and satisfactory evidence are said to be proved. By competent evidence, is meant that which the very-nature of the thing to be proved requires, as the fit and appropriate proof in the particular case, such as the production of a writing, where its contents are the subject of inquiry. By satisfactory evidence, which is sometimes called sufficient evidence, is intended that amount of proof, which ordinarily satisfies an unprejudiced mind, beyond reasonable doubt. The circumstances which will amount to this degree of proof can never be previously defined; the only legal test of which they are susceptible, is their sufficiency to satisfy the mind and conscience of a common man; and so to convince him, that he would venture to act upon that conviction, in matters of the highest concern and importance to his own interest. [A Treatise on Evidence, Vol I, 11th edn. (Boston: Little, Brown, 1888) ch 1., sections 1 and 2. Shorter paragraphs added. (NB: Greenleaf was a founder of the modern Harvard Law School and is regarded as a founding father of the modern Anglophone school of thought on evidence, in large part on the strength of this classic work.)]
BTW, his summary of the ancient documents rule is relevant:
Every document, apparently ancient, coming from the proper repository or custody, and bearing on its face no evident marks of forgery, the law presumes to be genuine, and devolves on the opposing party the burden of proving it to be otherwise. [Testimony of the Evangelists, Kregel reprint, p.16.]
So also is this on fitting in:
Every event which actually transpires has its appropriate relation and place in the vast complication of circumstances, of which the affairs of men consist; it owes its origin to the events which have preceded it, it is intimately connected with all others which occur at the same time and place, and often with those of remote regions, and in its turn gives birth to numberless others which succeed. In all this almost inconceivable contexture, and seeming discord, there is perfect harmony; and while the fact, which really happened, tallies exactly with every other contemporaneous incident, related to it in the remotest degree, it is not possible for the wit of man to invent a story, which, if closely compared with the actual occurrences of the same time and place, may not be shown to be false. [p. 39.]
There is much more. KFkairosfocus
June 19, 2016
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Dr JDD; Regarding;
The resurrection of Jesus Christ is the best starting point as evidence for theism. Evidence does not rely on lab reproducibility. You believe that Shakespeare wrote his plays? You believe Christopher Colombus landed in North America? Why? Because of evidence?
Like others, you represent your beliefs as if they were accounts of mere, ordinary events. A man writing plays and poetry, another sailing across the ocean, and one rising from the dead; these are categorically different. Was Jesus just another, ordinary man? Do people rise from the dead under their own power frequently? No. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence, and the only evidence you have is that some people wrote that it happened. No reasonable person would accept that as satisfactory under ordinary conditions. sean s.sean samis
June 19, 2016
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Re. #188
This a collection of statements you agreed later (above) were not logically valid, ...
I did no such thing.
Can a person credibly know China exists without ever actually visiting China?
Yes. If testimony about China is reasonably consistent and posits nothing about China which is beyond rational explanation, then a person can credibly believe that China exists ever without being there. If testimony about deities was as consistent as it is about China and posited nothing about these deities that is beyond rational explanation, then one could credibly believe in deities without experiencing one. But testimony about deities vary wildly and posits attributes about these deities that cannot be rationally explained, so deities cannot be credibly believed without direct experience. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence; in this case even ordinary evidence is lacking; only a personal encounter with a deity would suffice.
Can I credibly know that Obama exists without actually having a direct encounter?
Similar to the above regarding China; an ordinary claim requiring only ordinary evidence.
Can I credibly know that, say, Thomas Jefferson existed, without ever having a direct encounter?
Similar to the above. Any person or event from the past can be credibly believed when there is reasonably consistent information about them and their reported behaviors. An ordinary claim requiring only ordinary evidence.
Can I credibly know that some intelligent agent(s) built stonehenge, without ever having met them directly?
Ditto. You seem to imply that your God is just another thing, like a faraway land, or a famous person or place. Is your God really so ordinary?
I don’t assert that it is a fact that god exists. [emphasis added] My belief that a classical god exists is provisional and supported, in my opinion, by a fairly large amount of evidence which I have laid out on this site before ...
Well OK then. I don’t assert that no God exists. I don’t even provisionally believe there is no god. I merely know I have no experience or credible evidence that any deity exists and I believe that the evidence put forward for the existence of any deity is too weak and muddled to arrive at any reasonable conclusion FOR OR AGAINST. I have laid much of my reasoning out on this site before. You and others have rejected my conclusions; that’s your right. As it is my right and the right of others to reject your evidence as inadequate. sean s.sean samis
June 19, 2016
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Seans @187: The resurrection of Jesus Christ is the best starting point as evidence for theism. Evidence does not rely on lab reproducibility. You believe that Shakespeare wrote his plays? You believe Christopher Colombus landed in North America? Why? Because of evidence?Dr JDD
June 19, 2016
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sean samis @186:
Which is why I avoid both.
That's not what your text implies. For example, when you said this:
I said that claims about deities vary wildly. There are so many contradictory claims that none have credibility; at least not unless some deity shows up and sorts them out. That has never happened to my knowledge.
This a collection of statements you agreed later (above) were not logically valid, which implies to me it wasn't a very well-thought-out collection of statments. They appear to be irrational dismissals, much like the following statement of yours:
Yes, one does need to have a direct encounter with a deity to know that it exists, otherwise one is merely placing their belief in the opinions of other, fallible, frail, limited human beings. Even the wisest person is just a person: fallible, frail, limited.
Again, this is not a very well-thought-out argument; it seems to me to be an irrational, emotion-based dismissal. Can a person credibly know China exists without ever actually visiting China? Can I credibly know that Obama exists without actually having a direct encounter? Can I credibly know that, say, Thomas Jefferson existed, without ever having a direct encounter? Can I credibly know that some intelligent agent(s) built stonehenge, without ever having met them directly? So, this is why your position on any theistic proposal seems to be one of selective hyperskepticism; you demand a certain kind of evidence that you do not demand from anything else to claim credible knowledge, and you use irrational dismissals that you later have to admit were not valid. Seems like selective hyperskepticism based on an irrational a priori commitment to me. As far "hypergullibility and acceptance" are concerned, I don't assert that it is a fact that god exists. My belief that a classical god exists is provisional and supported, in my opinion, by a fairly large amount of evidence which I have laid out on this site before (various logical and moral arguments, big bang and fine tuning evidence, various testimonial, anecdotal, circumstantial and tangentially supportive evidences). I've also laid out an argument on this site where I describe how strong atheism is rationally unsupportable and weak atheism can only be the product of ignorance of the evidence (or of intellectual dishonesty or denialism). I find certain arguments against certain kinds of gods (non-classical) to be good arguments, which is why I don't think one can support a credible belief in those kinds of "gods". I don't I've represented myself and my views here in a way that supports an accusation of "hypergulliblism", whereas your comments just in this thread alone appear to support hyperskepticism and irrational denial on your part.William J Murray
June 19, 2016
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Dr JDD; Regarding #172
– Abiogenesis is false because we can never test or know how it happened (we cannot be completely sure without a time machine what the exact conditions were when life arose and never will 100% know)
False. If abiogenesis is possible, it is a process whose steps can be tested at least in the lab. We can design hypothetical pathways and verify whether they work or not. If a reasonable process occurring under reasonably likely conditions can be verified, then we can reasonably say that life on Earth could have arisen by abiogenesis. Your apparent requirement of 100% perfect confidence is not a standard recognized or applied in science or any other intellectual discipline. We may never know what actually did happen, but we will probably reach the point of saying what could reasonably have happened. From a rational, scientific stand-point, that is quite enough. I would not be surprised if, at some point we end up with multiple possible and verified pathways and that the last simmering controversy will not be whether abiogenesis happens, but which of the possible processes is the one that is most likely happened on Earth.
– let’s not even get started on the multiverse
As with abiogenesis, if some multiverse theory describes something we can test (which testing is already happening) or provides some actual utility to science (like the still-unverified string theories do) then multiverse theories remain valid and scientific.
– you refuse to acknowledge that you, like a scientist can test different theories for the same observation, are able to test different theistic hypotheses or proposals for likely accuracy. This is simply false.
Please describe in some useful detail a test or experimental setup to validate an actual theistic hypothesis. sean s.sean samis
June 19, 2016
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Regarding #164:
Just because claims about a thing vary wildly or are contradictory doesn’t mean that none of the claims have credibility; ...
True.
... nor does it mean that none of the claims are logically valid; ...
True.
... nor does it mean that all of the evidence for each claim is categorically equal.
True.
But, this is the kind of “logic” produced by anti-theistic hyperskepticism and denial.
Maybe, but “hyperskepticism and denial” or “hypergullibility and acceptance” will both necessarily produce defective logic. Which is why I avoid both. Multiple contradictory claims about a thing do not show that none of the claims are true; it is possible none of them are true, or some partially true, or some completely true. How do we tell which is which? It’s simple: if any claim can be distinguished by being verified or verifiable as actually at least partially true, those claims-and ONLY those—have some credibility, the rest have no credibility. Unfortunately, no claims about any deity have been shown to be verifiable, except by those who engage in “hypergullibility and acceptance”. The operative verb there is SHOWN. Assertions that deistic claims are verifiable have no weight, only demonstrations do; and such demonstrations are lacking. So none have any rational credibility yet. Yet. sean s.sean samis
June 19, 2016
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Eugen #161 Regarding:
You don’t need to see deity “face to face”. Wise person should be able to recognize Architect’s work without seeing Him. “A skilled craftsman leaves no traces.” -Lao-Tzu.
Yes, one does need to have a direct encounter with a deity to know that it exists, otherwise one is merely placing their belief in the opinions of other, fallible, frail, limited human beings. Even the wisest person is just a person: fallible, frail, limited. Four points: First; Lao-Tzu’s comment contradicts your claim. He says that the “skilled craftsman leaves no traces.” If that is so then there’s nothing for the so-called “wise person” to recognize! No reasonable person would invent an entire theology based on the absence of evidence! A truly wise person would find such a theology laughable. It’s interesting to me that you glommed onto this quote from Lao-Tzu without considering that, if it is true, then it means the entire basis of creationism is destroyed unless you assert that your God is NOT a truly skilled craftsman! Creationism is founded on the belief that their God left many traces. Second, your comment was wrong when Lao-Tzu first uttered his saying, some 25 centuries ago. Even then, so-called “wise men”, looking at nature, “found” the hands, hooves, and paws of many deities. If they had all found substantially the same indications, then yes, their findings would be hard for a reasonable person to dismiss; but they did not find even similar signs. The inferred signs of literally thousands of deities, and hundreds of creation stories. No reasonable person will find their opinions persuasive, much less compelling. Third; to borrow a line from KF, what is anyone’s warrant for saying anyone was truly a “wise” person? There is none except that their claims show verifiable truth. Your claim as you cited does not fall into that category. This leads us to the fourth and last point: the fact that you thought this quote was important shows you do not understand rational discourse. Rational people reject proof from Authority. Nothing is true because Lao-Tzu said so, or Newton, or Einstein, or Hawking. There is no Authority whose opinion verifies any claim. Not mine, not yours, no one's. And considering that this quote you dug up contradicts the basis of Creationism, you may want to disavow it. I see there are a number of later comments, but I’ve been busy so I’ve not looked at those yet. As time permits ... sean s.sean samis
June 19, 2016
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Earlier @ #170 I wrote, “The fact is we cannot even begin to do science unless we make some metaphysical assumptions about science.” Indeed, at least according to physicist and theologian Ian Barbour, the assumptions that a scientist must make to do science are basically Biblical assumptions. "A good case can be made,” Barbour writes, “that the doctrine of creation helped set the stage for scientific activity." Christian philosopher Peter S. Williams, who provides the above quote from Barbour in his on-line article, “Does Science Disprove God?” lists several presuppositions of science that he argues “derive warrant from the theistic doctrine of creation:
• That the natural world is real (not an illusion) and basically good (and hence worth studying) • That the natural world isn’t divine (i.e. pantheism is false) and so it isn’t impious to experiment upon it • That the natural world isn’t governed by multiple competing and/or capricious forces (i.e. polytheism is false) • That the natural world is governed by a rational order • That the human mind is, to some degree, able to understand the rational order displayed by the natural world • That human cognitive and sensory faculties are generally reliable • That the rational order displayed by the natural world cannot be deduced from first principles, thus observation and experiment are required”
Again, notice that these presuppositions themselves cannot be proven by empirical science. Therefore, a science based epistemology, i.e. “scientism,” of any kind cannot be true. Williams observes that, “There is thus a wide-ranging consonance between Christianity and the presuppositions of science.” He then goes on to quote Barbour again. "Both Greek and biblical thought asserted that the world is orderly and intelligible. But the Greeks held that this order is necessary and that one can therefore deduce its structure from first principles. Only biblical thought held that God created both form and matter, meaning that the world did not have to be as it is and that the details of its order can be discovered only by observation. Moreover, while nature is real and good in the biblical view, it is not itself divine, as many ancient cultures held, and it is therefore permissible to experiment on it… it does appear that the idea of creation gave a religious legitimacy to scientific inquiry." http://www.bethinking.org/does-science-disprove-god/is-christianity-unscientific Barbour is not alone here. Both Alfred North Whitehead and American physicist Robert Oppenheimer understood that historically a Christian milieu was in fact necessary for the development of science. The famous Christian writer and University of Cambridge professor C.S. Lewis summarized the position this way: “Men became scientific because they expected Law in Nature, and they expected Law in Nature because they believed in a [Lawgiver.]” Indeed, all the early scientist who were part of the so-called scientific revolution: Galileo, Kepler, Newton were Christian theists. We could say much more here about the history of science and religion but that is a discussion for another time.john_a_designer
June 19, 2016
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GC: Cf here: http://nicenesystheol.blogspot.com/2010/11/unit-2-gospel-on-mars-hill-foundations.html#u2_brnz_putr -- the projective turnabout fails. KFkairosfocus
June 18, 2016
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WJM: "Scientists as far back as the mid 1800’s have gathered evidence for disembodied consciousnesses." I would certainly like to read some of those. Do you have any links to papers in the last thirty years or so? Hopefully they are something more than anecdotal stories of near death experiences or poltergeists. "I note, GC, that you use the terms “our” and “we”, as if referencing your own views in the collective sense will make them more authoritative and thus more credible." I use it in the same way that you do. In reference to things that humans have or have not been able to measure/identify/explain/etc. "When you can demonstrate how the brain can produce consciousness and experience, then you’ll have an argument for causation. Until then, it is nothing more than an atheistic narrative based upon correlation driven by a priori ideological commitments." And until you can demonstrate how the supernatural can produce a conciousness and experience independent of the physical brain, all you have is a theistic narrative driven by a priori ideological commitments. But at least the materialist argument has one thing going for it that the supernaturalist side doesn't. A correlation.Gordon Cunningham
June 18, 2016
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William J Murray @ 169
Seversky said:
Correlation does not necessarily imply causation.
I didn’t say anything about implications, Seversky. I said, that correlation is not causation. It is not. They are two separate things. Showing a correlation does not mean you have shown causation.
Quite true, but where you have a causal relationship you also have a correlation. So while the failure to observe consciousness survive the death of the brain in billions of cases over thousands of years may not amount to proof positive that consciousness is entirely dependent on a physical substrate like the brain, it's an entirely reasonable inference.
So it’s only a correlation that destroying the body ends its capacity for displaying life irreversibly?
I didn’t say anything about destroying bodies, nor did I say anything about life. Try and not change the subject matter or move the goal posts. Life and consciousness are not the same thing.
No, they aren't but they are both phenomena that you are arguing survive the death of the physical body even though there is no compelling reason to think they do.Seversky
June 18, 2016
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JAD, decided, why not augment, thanks. KFkairosfocus
June 18, 2016
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GC:
But how many confirmed incidences of conciousness without life can you present?
Confirmed how? Confirmed by whom? You use the term "confirmed", I'm sure, to provide yourself cover from the fact that there have been many, many cases and reports of consciousness without life (if by "life", you mean a functional physical body). Scientists as far back as the mid 1800's have gathered evidence for disembodied consciousnesses.
And finally, you are also correct that our inability to detect a conciousness I dependant of a functioning brain doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. Just in the same way that because we can’t detect the existance of leprechauns, giants and unicorns doesn’t mean that they don’t exist. But I wouldn’t wager any money on either.
[For future reference, GC, attempts to ridicule the position of others by associating their views with what are commonly held as ridiculous notions is trolling and I will erase your entire comment if you do this again in one of my threads.] I note, GC, that you use the terms "our" and "we", as if referencing your own views in the collective sense will make them more authoritative and thus more credible. Human history is rich with testimonial, anecdotal, circumstantial, personal and scientific evidence that supports the theory that consciousness can exist without a physical living body, your use of collectivist, self-important pronouns notwithstanding. When you can demonstrate how the brain can produce consciousness and experience, then you'll have an argument for causation. Until then, it is nothing more than an atheistic narrative based upon correlation driven by a priori ideological commitments.William J Murray
June 18, 2016
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JAD, yup, Craig too, Pearcey too and even some naturalists. Cf here. The problem is, that we are dealing with a culturally dominant scheme of thought and with people falling under Marfin's warning: "Evidence never looks compelling if you don`t engage with it." But, when enough people wise up and routinely call them on it so they cannot get away with it, that is when there will be serious re-thinking. Meanwhile we can expect many rhetorical gambits of distraction as it is clear they do not want to deal with the matter squarely. KFkairosfocus
June 18, 2016
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GC, we do not depend on Leprechauns or belief in same to exercise responsible rational freedom and therefore argue responsibly. You are arguing a view that clearly does undermine responsible rational freedom and so undercuts the foundation of argument. This is self referentially incoherent and so self falsifies. Evolutionary materialism is incoherent and so necessarily false. KFkairosfocus
June 18, 2016
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kairosfocus @ #171 quoting Charles Darwin: “With me, the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy.” Besides Reppert and Lewis, Alvin Plantiga has made some contributions exploring the same question. Basically Plantinga argued that what he terms “Darwin’s Doubt” undermines any form of philosophical naturalism as a world view because the goal of Darwinian evolution is survival not "true beliefs". See the comment (#17) I made on the Logic-Math & Morality thread. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/logic-math-morality/#comment-609409john_a_designer
June 18, 2016
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WJM: "Life and consciousness are not the same thing." Which is very true. There are plenty of examples of life without conciousness. Plants, bacteria, brain dead people, etc. But how many confirmed incidences of conciousness without life can you present? You are also correct in that correlation is not causation. They have two very different definitions. But the commonly used form of your statement is "correlation does not mean causation". As you know, this is a caution against jumping to the conclusion that just because there is a correlation between two things that one must be caused by the other. Which is very true. But it is also very true that if one thing does cause the other, there will always be a correlation between them. And finally, you are also correct that our inability to detect a conciousness I dependant of a functioning brain doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Just in the same way that because we can't detect the existance of leprechauns, giants and unicorns doesn't mean that they don't exist. But I wouldn't wager any money on either.Gordon Cunningham
June 18, 2016
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sean samis: There’s no rationale or justification for any other position. You seem to be missing the point. What is your justification for believing that this test of yours is reasonable? IF There’s no rationale or justification for any other position. THEN you are justified in believing [insert your position here] BECAUSE ... Because everyone ought to believe what you believe unless they have reason to believe something else? Is that it?Mung
June 18, 2016
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sean samis: There’s no rationale or justification for any other position. Argumentum ad Ignorantiam then. Here's your argument: IF there’s no rationale or justification for any other position. THEN your position is correct, BECAUSE there’s no rationale or justification for any other position. What deity did you encounter to come up with that bit of illogical nonsense? Higher Education?Mung
June 18, 2016
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Seans I was paraphrasing and so you disagree on semantics but do not take into consideration my points made which still stand. So, based on your own logic: - Abiogenesis is false because we can never test or know how it happened (we cannot be completely sure without a time machine what the exact conditions were when life arose and never will 100% know) - let's not even get started on the multiverse - you refuse to acknowledge that you, like a scientist can test different theories for the same observation, are able to test different theistic hypotheses or proposals for likely accuracy. This is simply false.Dr JDD
June 18, 2016
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Seversky, re 165: While I must first express appreciation that you have engaged a substantial issue, I think some onward remarks of explanatory character are in order. Not least so that those willing to follow and engage may see the force of the evidence at work. First, timeline. Darwin is 1858 - 9 (with roots in the 1830's), and later, notoriously (but without properly reckoning with the full self-referential import) highlighted how:
"With me, the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy."
Practical modern digital computing came in in the 1930's and 40's, with Babbage's first proposals on calculating engines being c 1824. (A measure of his work is that when an analytical engine was built to his plans and using C19 precision, in the 1990's, it worked perfectly.) Across C19 and well into C20, mechanical analogue computers did amazing work. Electrical and electronic analogue computers came later; with today's operational amplifier chip as legacy. In the 1930's Turing's universal machine model was established. (Cf. some further thoughts on brains, consciousness and computers here.) Finally, Haldane's well-known stricture on materialism and mind dates to 1927:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.]
This specific insight was built upon by both C S Lewis and Victor Reppert. In short, immediately, the Darwinist IOU on mindedness has been on the table for 80+ - 150+ years and so has lost a lot of its credibility. Pleas for more and more time begin to sound hollow after that much time. However that is not the core challenge. Haldane rightly and aptly spoke to the powers and limitations of computing substrates, in ways that are independent of digital, analogue, neural network etc architecture: . . . They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically, so also hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In short, computing substrates do not work by rational insight and responsible freedom. They are mechanical, organised, implicitly or explicitly programmed devices that are working from blindly mechanical cause-effect chains and some influence or involvement of equally blind stochastic chance. They do not understand per logical ground-consequent inference or inductive connexion or abductive explanatory inference. Blind, mechanical and/or chance cascades leading to results driven and controlled by GIGO. That is why this is the heart of Reppert's argument:
It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [[But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [[so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.
No, it is not undue lack of confidence in yellowed intellectual IOU's; in the end it is that there is a categorical difference between blindly mechanical computational substrates and the responsible, rational freedom required to engage in reasoned discussion. So, properly, we point to the self-referential character and the indicators at the self-refutation end of the scale. Unless evolutionary materialism can cogently answer this, it cannot even properly sit at the discussion table as of right. By contrast, a far more promising approach first reckons with the fact of responsible, reasoned, credibly free discourse and discussion. Then it asks, how can this key self-referential fact be accounted for. To which one key step is the Smith model of a cybernetic loop with a two-tier controller. The lower i/o tier can comfortably fit with the mechanical paradigm. The upper one interacts with this and with the store facility provided by the lower tier. Informationally, and by way of perhaps quantum influences that in effect shape how the in the loop i/o controller behaves. In short, we are not locked up to the brain and cns alone. And so, as we go further, let us remember Marfin's point:
Evidence never looks compelling if you don`t engage with it
KFkairosfocus
June 17, 2016
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The philosophical naturalist has deluded himself into thinking he has a trump card which bolsters his hand-- science. The problem is that there are no trump cards in the high stakes world view ontological game. This is because in order to even begin to play the game you must establish the ground of being. You must begin by asking some basic questions. For example, you must ask, why does anything at all exist? Or, what is the nature of existence? How do we know? How can we be sure of what we know? Can we really know the truth about anything? However these are metaphysical questions, not questions that can be answered by science itself. Einstein said that scientists are poor philosophers. That perhaps explains why there are some scientists who naively believe that science can actually serve as a basis for a world view that can answer some of our biggest questions—at least those that they think are worthwhile. The late American astronomer Carl Sagan, for example, proclaimed that “the Cosmos is all that there is or ever was or ever will be.” (That is a claim that is not scientifically provable.) And, Nobel Prize winner Steven Weinberg opines that while “the worldview of science is rather chilling” there is, nevertheless, he goes on to say, “a grim satisfaction, in facing up to our condition without despair and without wishful thinking--with good humor… without God.” And then there is Harvard professor of psychology Steven Pinker who takes a scientifically based world view just about to its absolute limit. Pinker writes that,
the findings of science entail that the belief systems of all the world’s traditional religions and cultures—their theories of the origins of life, humans, and societies—are factually mistaken. We know, but our ancestors did not, that humans belong to a single species of African primate that developed agriculture, government, and writing late in its history. We know that our species is a tiny twig of a genealogical tree that embraces all living things and that emerged from prebiotic chemicals almost four billion years ago. We know that we live on a planet that revolves around one of a hundred billion stars in our galaxy, which is one of a hundred billion galaxies in a 13.8-billion-year-old universe, possibly one of a vast number of universes. We know that our intuitions about space, time, matter, and causation are incommensurable with the nature of reality on scales that are very large and very small. We know that the laws governing the physical world (including accidents, disease, and other misfortunes) have no goals that pertain to human well-being. There is no such thing as fate, providence, karma, spells, curses, augury, divine retribution, or answered prayers—though the discrepancy between the laws of probability and the workings of cognition may explain why people believe there are. And we know that we did not always know these things, that the beloved convictions of every time and culture may be decisively falsified, doubtless including some we hold today. In other words, the worldview that guides the moral and spiritual values of an educated person today is the worldview given to us by science.
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/114127/science-not-enemy-humanities On the other hand, there are other scientists, including some who are non-religious, even agnostic or atheistic, who see the folly of this kind of thinking. For example, Sir Peter Medawar, also a Nobel laureate, was one scientist who spoke out against this so called scientism. He wrote in his book, Advice to a Young Scientist:
“There is no quicker way for a scientist to bring discredit upon himself and upon his profession than roundly to declare – particularly when no declaration of any kind is called for – that science knows, or soon will know, the answers to all questions worth asking, and that questions which do not admit a scientific answer are in some way non-questions or ‘pseudo-questions’ that only simpletons ask and only the gullible profess to be able to answer. … The existence of a limit to science is, however, made clear by its inability to answer childlike elementary questions having to do with first and last things – questions such as ‘How did everything begin?'; ‘What are we all here for?';’What is the point of living?'” Advice to a Young Scientist, London, Harper and Row, 1979 p.31
Also, Erwin Schrödinger, one of the early theorist of quantum physics, said something similar: “Science puts everything in a consistent order but is ghastly silent about everything that really matters to us: beauty, color, taste, pain or delight, origins, God and eternity.” But the inadequacy of science is not limited to questions that it cannot answer. The fact is we cannot even begin to do science unless we make some metaphysical assumptions about science.john_a_designer
June 17, 2016
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Seversky said:
Correlation does not necessarily imply causation.
I didn't say anything about implications, Seversky. I said, that correlation is not causation. It is not. They are two separate things. Showing a correlation does not mean you have shown causation.
So it’s only a correlation that destroying the body ends its capacity for displaying life irreversibly?
I didn't say anything about destroying bodies, nor did I say anything about life. Try and not change the subject matter or move the goal posts. Life and consciousness are not the same thing.William J Murray
June 17, 2016
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William J Murray @ 166
Here’s your answer: correlation is not causation. It has not been shown that destroying the brain ends that consciousness irreversible. It has only shown that destroying the brain ends that body’s capacity for displaying that consciousness.
Correlation does not necessarily imply causation. So it's only a correlation that destroying the body ends its capacity for displaying life irreversibly? The fact that the contradictory, apart from some dubious stories in the Bible, has never been observed still allows for the dead to come back to life? Well, all you have to do is raise someone from the dead or demonstrate a completely incorporeal consciousness and you will have carried the day. I should say that I won't be holding my breath, however.Seversky
June 17, 2016
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john_a_designer @ 152
So the battle of world views is not really faith vs. reason, as Boghossian and other new atheists believe, but it’s a battle of faith vs. faith: faith in the infinite (God) vs. faith in the finite (man). Anyone who understands that understands that man, who is limited, finite and fallible cannot possibly win.
Yes, you can argue that the battle of worldviews is one between faiths. On the one hand we have your "faith in the infinite (God)" which is faith in a set of assertions of what is held to be absolute and incontrovertible Truth. It eschews the "pathetic level of detail in telling mechanistic stories" that it demands of science in favor of comforting and cozy stories of a benign, caring, paternalistic deity whose greatest concern is the well-being of humanity. Unfortunately for the faithful, to believe this they have to ignore evidence from their own Scripture in which their God is depicted, in the words of a certain prominent atheist, as “... arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” On the other hand, we have faith in the admittedly far from perfect methodology of human science which has given us explanations, treatments and even cures for diseases about which we could do little or nothing in the past or spacecraft which can be sent with incredible accuracy to where a planet will be many years in the future. That is just to name a couple of achievements by fallible and finite human beings and it was all our own work. I know which faith I believe is more warranted.Seversky
June 17, 2016
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