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Is Atheism Rationally Justifiable?

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First, I’d like to thank Mr. Arrington for granting me posting privileges.  I consider it quite an honor, and I hope this post (and any future posts) warrants this trust.

Second, the following is an argument I think will help us to focus on a fundamental issue that lies behind ever so many of the debates here at Uncommon Descent, and elsewhere.  That is, is the sort of implicit or even explicit atheism that is so often built in on the ground floor of a “scientific” mindset truly rationally justifiable? Such cannot be assumed, it needs to be shown.

I’ll begin by defining some terms for the sake of this argument:

Definition of God (for the purpose of this thread): First cause, prime mover, root of being, objective source of human purpose (final cause) and resulting morality, source of free will, mind, consciousness; omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent inasmuch as principles of logic allow; an interventionist as necessary to facilitate movement towards final cause and also inasmuch as logical principles are not violated; source of logic — “reason itself.” (I am not talking in particular about any specifically defined religious interpretation of god, such as the Chrstian or Islamic God.)

Definition: Weak, or negative atheism is the lack of any belief that a god exists, and the position that a god probably doesn’t exist, and is not the positive belief that gods do not exist (strong atheism), and is not agnosticism (the lack of belief that god either does or does not exist and the further view that there is a lack of sufficient probability either way).  Strong atheism is the belief that no god or gods exist at all.

Definition: A worldview or mindset is rationally justified when it answers adequately to the facts of the real world as we experience or observe it, makes good sense and fits together logically, is simple but not simplistic, and honestly faces the issues and difficulties that all worldviews face.

Definition: Intellectual dishonesty occurs when (1) one deliberately mischaracterizes their position or view in order to avoid having to logically defend their actual views; and/or (2) when someone is arguing, or making statements against a position while remaining willfully ignorant about that position, and/or (3) when someone categorically and/or pejoratively dismisses all existent and/or potential evidence in favor of a conclusion they claim to be neutral about, whether they are familiar with that evidence or not.

These will be important as we consider:

Evidence in favor of God:  The following is a brief summary of the evidence that typically leads many people to make a general finding that a god (as described above) exists, even if variantly interpreted or culturally contextualized:

(1)
Anecdotal evidence for the apparently intelligently ordered anomalous, miraculous (defying expected natural processes and probabilities) events attributed to god, such as signs, supernatural events (e.g. Fatima, Guadeloupe, Paul’s Damascus Road Experience), or answers to prayers to god;

(2)
Testimonial evidence (first-hand accounts) of experience of such phenomena, including interactions with a god-like being or accounts of god-like interventions;  Also, the testimony of religious adherents of various specific gods can be counted as evidence of the god premised in this argument in the manner that various cultures can vary widely in their description of certain phenomena or experiences, and come up with widely variant “explanations”; what is interesting as evidence here, though, is the widespread crediting of similar kinds of phenomena and experience to a “god” of some sort (which might be the case of blind or ignorant people touching different parts of an elephant and thus describing “what the elephant is” in various ways). Such testimonial evidence can be counted in favor of the premise here, but cannot be held against it where it varies, because it is not testimony that such a god doesn’t exist.

(3)
The various Cosmological and Ontological Arguments for the existence of god;

(4)  The Strong Anthropic (or Fine Tuning) argument and other evidences for design of our world and of life in it;

(5) The empirical, scientific evidence assembled in support of the design arguments in #4 (such as recently persuaded Antony Flew — formerly the world’s leading philosophical atheist — that there is a god);

(6) The Moral arguments for the existence of god.

(7) Empirical and testimonial evidence of phenomena closely correlated to the existence of a god as described above, such as the survival of consciousness after death, and the existence of an afterlife realm; the evidence for interactions with correlated entities such as angels and demons (which seem to act to influence our free will towards or away from our human purpose), etc., gathered by various serious and scientific investigations into what is often referred to as the “paranormal”, including mediumship studies dating back to William Crooke and ongoing through the work at Pear Labs and the Scole Experiment, including consciousness-survival research published in the Lancet. While indirect, this evidence tends to support the proposition that god exists.

While the various arguments listed above have been subjected to counter-arguments and rebuttals of varying strengths and weaknesses across the ages, one must not lose sight that while there is much evidence of all sorts (as listed above) in favor of the existence of god; there is zero empirical evidence (to my knowledge) or and little in the way of rational argument that no such god exists.  In other words, decreasing the value of the arguments and evidence for god does not increase the value of the position that there is no god; it can only increase the reasonableness of the “weak atheist” (there isn’t enough evidence) or an agnostic position.

The commonly seen rebuttals to these argument are simply attempting to show weaknesses in or alternatives to the arguments themselves so that such arguments cannot be taken as demonstratively convincing (that god exists); such counter-arguments as a rule do not actually make the case that god (as described above) in fact does not exist.

The argument against weak atheism:

The above shows us that, ironically, strong atheism is a weak position. That is probably why atheism advocates seldom defend it in informed company. So, we must first focus on the “stronger” atheist position, the one they defend in public: “weak atheism,” generally described as absence of belief in god or gods. I will argue that it too is far weaker than is commonly recognized.

I know of no positive arguments for the strong “there is no god” position, other than the argument from evil which has been addressed by Boethius, Adams  and Platinga. Aside from that, there are only rebuttals/reactions to various “there is a god” arguments. This exemplifies how rebutting an argument does not eliminate it as evidence, it only offers an alternative perspective that one  can evaluate along with the original argument.   Depending on the strength of the rebuttal or alternative explanation, that particular positive evidence for god may be decreased in value, but there is no concurrent increase in the value of an argument against the existence of god (as described above).

If a “weak atheist” claims to “lack belief” because there is “no evidence for god,” he or she is necessarily being intellectually dishonest, because we certainly aren’t privy to all potential or available evidence. Are such atheists claiming to be omniscient? If not, then, a more modest and reasonable point would be that they are not aware of evidence for god. However, given what we have already seen, such “weak atheists” cannot genuinely claim to not know of “any” evidence for god after having perused any of the above evidence.  That is to say, there is evidence for god, just, they don’t accept it. But incredulity or hyper-skepticism on your part does not equate to “no evidence” on my part. Testimony from otherwise credible sources is not made “less credible” simply because the testimony is about something the listener personally finds to be in-credible; it is not intellectually honest to discredit the credibility of testimony only on the basis of the subject matter being debated.

Also, strong atheists often only refer to themselves as weak atheists because they have realized that the strong atheist position is an assertion they cannot support in informed company.  They do this to provide cover for their real view, which is an obvious form of intellectual dishonesty.  One can often discern when this is going on when the person ridicules belief in god or makes categorical dismissals about evidence they have never even seen; they believe there is no god, and so assume there can be no valid evidence for god, and advocate for that position rhetorically via ridicule.

Even if the “weak atheist” is not aware of any compelling evidence for god, he or she must know that we humans are quite limited in what we know, and may often be unaware of mistakes in what we think we know. That means that any categorical claim a “weak” atheist makes about the available evidence he or she is not privy to — that it is not credible or convincing — is again intellectually dishonest because you cannot justifiably make a categorical claim about something you have no knowledge of.

So, if we have a weak atheist who is aware of the existence of the above evidence and agrees that there might be more evidence they are not privy to; and who does not categorically assert problems with the evidence they have not yet seen; and who does not categorically dismiss the available evidence as “non-evidence” due to hyper-skeptical bias but rather states that the available evidence they have seen is not compelling towards a conclusion that god exists; then one must ask the following:

In the face of such overwhelming amounts of evidence — thousands of years of testimony and anecdotal stories; many serious arguments based on credible empirical evidence and apparently necessary logical premises and inferences; and, the complete lack of any generally successful attempt to make a sound argument that god in fact does not exist — one must ask: how can any intellectually honest person come to any conclusion other than that on the balance of the evidence, god probably existseven if god is poorly and diversely defined, and even if the experience of god is open to various interpretations and even to misunderstanding?

As an analogy: even if one has never personally experienced “love”; in the face of thousands of years of testimony and anecdotal stories that love exists, and empirical evidence supporting that certain physical states correspond to assertions of experiences of love, would it be intellectually honest to “lack belief” that love exists, or would it be intellectually honest to hold the view that even though one doesn’t experience love (or using the same argument, color, joy, dreams, etc.), that love probably exists – even if people are widely disparate in their explanation, description, or presentation of what love is?

Another analogy: because witnesses disagree in their description of a criminal suspect in a crime, or disagree about the particulars of the crime they witnessed, this doesn’t mean there is no criminal at all.  Depending on the testimony and evidence, one may hold that it is likely that a crime occurred, and so it is likely that a criminal exists, but that the arguments, testimony and evidence are  not enough reach a finding of “guilty” for any particular suspect.

As far as I am aware of there is no anecdotal or testimonial evidence that god does not exist (because lack of experience of a thing isn’t evidence the thing doesn’t exist), very little in the way of logical argument towards that conclusion, and there is a vast array of logical, anecdotal, testimonial and empirical evidence that god (at least as generally described above) does exist. Because a billion people did not witness a crime, and only a handful did, doesn’t tilt the scales in favor of no crime having been committed at all; imagine now a billion people that report witnessing a crime, and handful that did not, and you have something more comparable to the state of evidence concerning the existence of god.

Even if one doesn’t find that evidence compelling for for a final conclusion that god exists,  when one weighs the balance of the evidence for and against god, one should be willing to at least consider whether it is more probable that god (as described above) exists than that god does not exist.  Problematically (for the atheist), the view that it is more likely that god exists than not is not any sort of an atheistic position.

The argument against strong atheism:

Strong atheism is defined as the assertion that no god or gods exist whatsoever.

First, it is obvious that strong atheism cannot be logically supported, simply because it is impossible to prove (not in the absolute sense, but in the “sufficient evidence” sense). There may be evidence and good argument that certain gods, or kinds of gods, do not exist; but there is certainly no generally accepted evidence or successful argument that no significant, meaningful god or gods whatsoever exist, including the one as defined for this thread.

Instead of trying to actually support their own claim, strong atheists usually attempt to shift the burden of proof onto theists by essentially asking the theists to prove the atheist position wrong, implying or asserting that atheism must be held true by default.  That is, such try to argue that they have nothing to argue and can sit comfortably on their view as a default. However, that is not so; every worldview of consequence has a duty to show that it is factually adequate, coherent and explains reality powerfully and simply.  Strong atheism is not a default position; it is a positive assertion that no god or gods exist.  The default position is always “I don’t know” or true agnosticism.

Strong atheism is a sweeping, categorical assertion that something does not exist. As such, It has the job of proving a universal negative.  Perhaps this could be accomplished by showing the converse positive claim to be self-contradictory, and readers advocating strong atheism are invited to make their case based upon the definition of God at the top of this post.

Also, however unlikely it may seem to an atheist, it might be true that a god of some sort exists outside of the circle of what she or he knows or what the collective of atheists actually know. After all, we all know full well that “to err is human.” So, since the atheist could be mistaken or ignorant of the key fact or argument that would be decisive,  the strong atheist position unjustifiably excludes a potentially true explanation from consideration.  What is the rationally useful point of a metaphysical position that excludes a potentially true explanation from consideration?  Especially when it requires asserting an unsupportable universal negative? What, then, does strong atheism bring to the table of debate other than the potential for intractable error and denial of potential truth for the sake of a sweeping, unsupportable, universally negative assertion?

Conclusion: atheism is an untenable position for any intellectually honest, rational, and informed person. The belief that god (as described above, which is supported by the listed evidence) does not exist, or that it isn’t more likely that god exists than not, can only be a position based on ignorance of the available evidence and argument for god, or a hyper-skeptical, intellectually dishonest, ideologically biased, a priori dismissal of all of the evidence for the existence of god.

Comments
Json @ 682:
First, Robin Collins does not hold a PhD in the field of physics. Your written characterization is misleading and simply untrue. Robin Collins does indeed have a PhD, but it is not in physics. Robin Collins did attend the PhD program at the University of Texas in the field of physics, but Robin Collins did not graduate from that program.
Okay, then the source that I had misrepresented him. Here is what Biola University’s website says about him: “Robin Collins (Ph.D., University of Notre Dame) is Distinguished Professor of Philosophy and Chair of the Department of Philosophy at Messiah College in Pennsylvania. He has graduate level training in theoretical physics and has written over thirty-five substantial articles and book chapters on a wide range of topics in philosophy of physics, philosophy of religion, and philosophy of mind.” (http://cct.biola.edu/about/robin-collins/)
Second, Paul Davies is mentioned as a credible source to bolster your argument for Fine Tuning. While I agree Paul Davies is credible (you should quote him fully as his thoughts on happenstance for life are not how you portrayed them), I think using him as a reference, in light of the fact that he disagrees with the Kala Cosmologic argument, does you more harm than good. Davies is also of the opinion that the Anthropic principle lacks proper reasoning to be used as evidence.
While Davies might disagree with the Kalam Cosmological Argument, he still provides a good source of expertise on physics. He’s not scornful of those scientists who are religious and he notes that our universe appears to have come from a series of “fortuitous accidents.” I believe in coincidences, but there is simply too much evidence for design to wave the existence of the universe away as a happy accident or a product of chance.
The original cosmological/first cause arguments were deeply flawed, which is what I was speaking to. Even this variation of the original Kalam derivative has been altered because it’s been heavily criticized.
Please provide evidence for these claims. What flaws are you talking about, and who states that the original arguments were flawed to begin with?
However, despite this the Kalam cosmological argument has absolutely nothing to do with god. It’s not an argument for anything in particular. So how is it that you go from, “Therefore, the Universe has a cause”…to “God exists”? You have asserted a claim without evidence.
Given that whatever begins to exist has a cause (premise 1) and that the universe began to exist (premise 2), then the third premise—the universe must have a cause—leads to the conclusion that there must be some transcendent cause for the universe’s existence. Think of the qualities that can be identified as to the cause of the universe: a cause of space and time must be uncaused, beginningless, timeless, immaterial, personal being endowed with both freedom of will and enormous power. And that is a pretty good description of God.
Fine tuning doesn’t lead to a first cause. That concept is not even part of the principle. IF one would believe in a designer, it could very well be the Universe itself. But one may not argue the Universe is First Cause.
No, but fine tuning makes it less likely that the universe is simply a happy accident or a product of random chance. Design implies a designer. A dress does not design itself and sew itself together, and a universe does not design and create itself. Big Bang cosmology makes that point.
Fine tuning, in this context, deals with life in general. It says nothing of humans specifically. Even the CSC website, referenced by this article’s author, attributes only “life” to fine tuning. To argue the Universe was fine tuned for human existence is simply misunderstanding what fining tuning means and, more importantly, to ignore the history of life on Earth.
What else would be the purpose, then, of the fine tuning we see here on Earth? Paul Davies, writing in The Mind of God notes: “Davies concludes by saying: “Just why Homo sapiens should carry the spark of rationality that provides the key to the universe, is a deep enigma. . . . I cannot believe that our existence in this universe is a mere quirk of fate, an accident of history, an incidental blip in the great cosmic drama. Our involvement is too intimate. . . . We are truly meant to be here.”
Evidence from fossilized life on Earth clearly shows the human species did not exist first. It clearly shows the adaptation of life to its surroundings.
Yes, I agree. And it also shows that only Earth is suited for human life. The four fundamental forces (gravity, electromagnetism, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force) operate perfectly for life to flourish on Earth.
Yes, very biased. That is the only true evidence we have. But slavish? I hardly think so.
Actually, if you’d have read through this website you’d see that it’s not the only true evidence we have. However, you refuse to consider anything else. That’s what I would call slavish devotion to materialism.
Scientific Theology – epitome of an oxymoron. Again, another argument that because life is possible in the Universe, somehow humanity must have a purpose. This is also an example of the repetitive use of probability quotes in your arguments. Which is why I used probability to relate to your reasoning that the improbability of no other life forms on other planets is even smaller than all your examples.
Why is it an oxymoron? The greatest scientific minds who have ever lived practiced their science while holding to a belief that God exists.
You will convince yourself that Fine Tuning is at the Universe level and permeates through the expanse of an unfathomably large universe, but then you’ll take the stance that only Earth is graced with the “blessing” of life. As of today, June 22, 2013, there is no evidence of a supernatural creator, anywhere. And it’s not because nobody’s been looking, either.
Or maybe it’s that you’re not looking hard enough. There is plenty of evidence for the existence of God, which has been debated for centuries. Paul wrote: “What may be known about God is manifest among them . . . His invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable; because, although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God nor did they thank him, but they became empty-headed in their reasonings and their unintelligent heart became darkened. Although asserting they were wise, they became foolish.” (Romans 1:19-22) Since “the world’s creation”—particularly since the creation of intelligent human creatures, who could perceive God’s existence—it has been evident that there is a Creator of immense power, a God worthy of devotion. Those who fail to acknowledge God’s glory are thus inexcusable. Scientific research is limited—restricted to what humans can actually observe or study. Otherwise it is mere theory or guesswork. Since “God is a Spirit,” he simply cannot be subjected to direct scientific scrutiny. (John 4:24) It is arrogant, therefore, to dismiss faith in God as unscientific.
I would argue the Universe set the Universe’s rules in motion. That was my point of using possessive grammar (thought that was obvious). Rules do demand a rule giver, and again that is the Universe. Why do I have to keep pointing out data you’ve already conceded?
I have conceded nothing, Json. How does a universe set its own rules in motion? Please show your work.
Good grief. My stance was theists always point to morality as an “unknown” and then assert there must be a designer/creator to explain morals (argument from ignorance).
An argument from ignorance states that we don’t know the exact cause. Theists assert that God is the objective standard of good and hence, we can know what is good and bad. That’s not an argument from ignorance. Science doesn’t even begin to explain moral guidelines, because that is outside of scientific inquiry.
I did not state that we didn’t know what morals are, but theists argue we do not know how they came into existence. Thus my Santa Clause example and how humans have CREATED those rules to manipulate a child’s behavior illustrates how humans do in fact create moral codes within a society.
Humans do create rules. The problem of morality stems from knowing where the objective standard of good and bad lies. Theists say God; atheists say humanity. Murder is common in the animal kingdom; why do humans make rules against it? Why do we state that it is wrong to take a human life?
Which religion? Yours? I’ve studied many religions, including Christianity. Have you?
Actually, my religion (Christianity) has not had a problem with science. I’ve also studied religion at the college level and was raised in a religious household. When you say “study” are you talking about an actual class or Bible study, or are you simply talking about searching through atheist websites to see what they say about religion?
Are you aware the “birth of a god’s son from a mortal” story has been told through dozens and dozens of religions?
Yes. That does not disprove the Bible’s account, though.
Are you aware sacred dates within Christianity aren’t even original to that religion? You are not special in your religious beliefs. There have been many religions before yours and there will be many more after yours (again, evidence says this will happen).
Argument from ignorance.
And, yes, science is good, but only when it doesn’t contradict your faith. Your thought process when it comes to answering questions: “If I don’t know the answer, it must be god”. Even if a scientific hypothesis doesn’t turn out to be the answer, it doesn’t mean the default should be “god”.
I don’t have any problem with science. I am, however, aware that science is limited to what humans can see and observe. No human has all the answers, and I like to see scientific progress being made in various fields. I also don’t believe science has all the answers; there are many questions that science simply cannot answer.
And finally, you admit to being a Christian. I would like to point out that all of your philosophical reasoning and principles in which you argue by (Fine Tuning, Kalam, Anthropic, First cause), not one lends any credibility to a Christian creator/designer. In fact, your philosophical position lends credence to all religions that believe in a creator, not just yours.
Actually, I have found that the reasoning I’ve used does tend to point towards a Christian creator. It is simply a matter of considering the evidence from Christianity as well as from other religions and what they have to say about creation. All religions have a creation story; the question is, which one closely matches what we know about the universe? Barb
Barb @681
A scientist (Robin Collins, PhD, physics) described the “anthropic principle” (as it’s known in philosophy) as “the extraordinary balancing of the fundamental laws and parameters of physics and the initial conditions of the universe.” He further echoes the findings of Paul Davies (writer of “Cosmic Jackpot”) that the coincidences are simply too amazing to have been happenstance. Our universe has just the right conditions to sustain life.
First, Robin Collins does not hold a PhD in the field of physics. Your written characterization is misleading and simply untrue. Robin Collins does indeed have a PhD, but it is not in physics. Robin Collins did attend the PhD program at the University of Texas in the field of physics, but Robin Collins did not graduate from that program. Second, Paul Davies is mentioned as a credible source to bolster your argument for Fine Tuning. While I agree Paul Davies is credible (you should quote him fully as his thoughts on happenstance for life are not how you portrayed them), I think using him as a reference, in light of the fact that he disagrees with the Kala Cosmologic argument, does you more harm than good. Davies is also of the opinion that the Anthropic principle lacks proper reasoning to be used as evidence.
#3 refers to the cosmological argument for God’s existence, sometimes framed as the Kalam cosmological argument. It goes as follows: 1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause. 2. The universe began to exist. 3. Therefore, the universe has a cause. It’s certainly not a logical fallacy; it’s a syllogism. We have empirical evidence for the truth of the first premise. We do not see things simply coming into being without a cause.
The original cosmological/first cause arguments were deeply flawed, which is what I was speaking to. Even this variation of the original Kalam derivative has been altered because it's been heavily criticized. However, despite this the Kalam cosmological argument has absolutely nothing to do with god. It's not an argument for anything in particular. So how is it that you go from, "Therefore, the Universe has a cause"...to "God exists"? You have asserted a claim without evidence.
Who says that the Universe is not a product for humanity’s existence? You? What proof do you offer for this premise? The fine tuning of the universe does provide strong evidence for a first cause, or a designer.
Fine tuning doesn't lead to a first cause. That concept is not even part of the principle. IF one would believe in a designer, it could very well be the Universe itself. But one may not argue the Universe is First Cause. Fine tuning, in this context, deals with life in general. It says nothing of humans specifically. Even the CSC website, referenced by this article's author, attributes only "life" to fine tuning. To argue the Universe was fine tuned for human existence is simply misunderstanding what fining tuning means and, more importantly, to ignore the history of life on Earth. Evidence from fossilized life on Earth clearly shows the human species did not exist first. It clearly shows the adaptation of life to its surroundings. My original argument was stating the Universe did not adapt to human life, but human life adapted to the Universe. Your "proof" that the Universe is not a product for human's existence is in your nearest library, science section.
And you are biased because of your slavish devotion to evolution and materialism.
Yes, very biased. That is the only true evidence we have. But slavish? I hardly think so.
Alistair McGrath, writing in a three-volume series called Scientific Theology, pointedly asks, “Is it a pure coincidence that the laws of nature are such that life is possible? Might this not be an important clue to the nature and destiny of humanity?” As of today, June 10, 2013, there is no other life in the universe save Earth. And it’s not because nobody’s been looking, either.
Scientific Theology - epitome of an oxymoron. Again, another argument that because life is possible in the Universe, somehow humanity must have a purpose. This is also an example of the repetitive use of probability quotes in your arguments. Which is why I used probability to relate to your reasoning that the improbability of no other life forms on other planets is even smaller than all your examples. You will convince yourself that Fine Tuning is at the Universe level and permeates through the expanse of an unfathomably large universe, but then you'll take the stance that only Earth is graced with the "blessing" of life. As of today, June 22, 2013, there is no evidence of a supernatural creator, anywhere. And it’s not because nobody’s been looking, either.
Who set “the universe’s rules” in motion? Rules demand a rule giver; they don’t appear out of nowhere. You have (wittingly or not) ascribed the universe as the result of deliberate creation. Thanks for making my point for me.
I would argue the Universe set the Universe's rules in motion. That was my point of using possessive grammar (thought that was obvious). Rules do demand a rule giver, and again that is the Universe. Why do I have to keep pointing out data you've already conceded? You insist Fine Tuning is rational. A fine tuned universe argues any changes in the physical constants would have drastic changes to that universe and therefore the "rules" of that universe. Science knows when, where, and how the "rules" of our Universe came into existence, already.
It’s not an argument from ignorance; we’re not ignorant of morality or laws that constrain it. We simply choose to suppress our consciences or our morality when it might benefit us. Again, if there are “rules”, then there is a rule giver. Rules do not simply appear out of nowhere. Where do we as humans get the idea of behavior that is right or wrong?
Good grief. My stance was theists always point to morality as an "unknown" and then assert there must be a designer/creator to explain morals (argument from ignorance). I did not state that we didn't know what morals are, but theists argue we do not know how they came into existence. Thus my Santa Clause example and how humans have CREATED those rules to manipulate a child's behavior illustrates how humans do in fact create moral codes within a society. Ergo, your question is answered. Humans create the rules in which humans live by, just as wolf-packs create rules that the alpha male eats first. It's simple to understand if you drop the pretense for a god.
Spoken like a true atheist who has little to no real knowledge of religion. Science and faith aren't at war. When scientific evidence and biblical teachings are correctly interpreted, they can and do support each other.
Which religion? Yours? I've studied many religions, including Christianity. Have you? Are you aware the “birth of a god’s son from a mortal” story has been told through dozens and dozens of religions? Are you aware sacred dates within Christianity aren't even original to that religion? You are not special in your religious beliefs. There have been many religions before yours and there will be many more after yours (again, evidence says this will happen). And, yes, science is good, but only when it doesn't contradict your faith. Your thought process when it comes to answering questions: “If I don’t know the answer, it must be god". Even if a scientific hypothesis doesn't turn out to be the answer, it doesn't mean the default should be “god". And finally, you admit to being a Christian. I would like to point out that all of your philosophical reasoning and principles in which you argue by (Fine Tuning, Kalam, Anthropic, First cause), not one lends any credibility to a Christian creator/designer. In fact, your philosophical position lends credence to all religions that believe in a creator, not just yours. Json
Json @ 680:
Evidence: #1 & #2 — Exact same quality. They are both anecdotal evidence. Anecdotal n. – “non-scientific observations or studies, which do not provide proof but may assist research efforts”…enough said.
#2 is testimonial evidence from firsthand accounts. That is not anecdoctal evidence.
#3 — Does not prove an existence of a supernatural god. This only argues that the universe must have a cause, but does not provide any evidence of what that cause is (or why). Plus this is a logical fallacy called Special Pleading: To argue that everything must have a beginning except god is illogical.
#3 refers to the cosmological argument for God’s existence, sometimes framed as the Kalam cosmological argument. It goes as follows: 1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause. 2. The universe began to exist. 3. Therefore, the universe has a cause. It’s certainly not a logical fallacy; it’s a syllogism. We have empirical evidence for the truth of the first premise. We do not see things simply coming into being without a cause.
#4 & #5– Why do religious people always argue the universe as if it’s a product for human species’ existence instead of looking at human species’ existence as a product of the universe? Arguing that small percentage changes in life sustaining variables does not provide ANY evidence for a god.
Who says that the universe is not a product for humanity’s existence? You? What proof do you offer for this premise? The fine tuning of the universe does provide strong evidence for a first cause, or a designer.
So what if the universe constants were so different that human life could not exist? Why does it have to? The answer is because you have a presupposition for life. And why? Because you are biased based on the religious text that your read.
And you are biased because of your slavish devotion to evolution and materialism.
You are arguing from an appeal to authority. The only thing Fine Tuning tells us is that life as we currently understand it would only have been very different. Since you are arguing that there is no evidence to “disprove God”, then I argue there is no evidence to disprove there is no life on other planets in unimaginably different forms than our own.
Alistair McGrath, writing in a three-volume series called Scientific Theology, pointedly asks, “Is it a pure coincidence that the laws of nature are such that life is possible? Might this not be an important clue to the nature and destiny of humanity?”
If that’s so, Fine Tuning is even more fallacious.
Fine tuning is not fallacious. You have provided no premises from which to reach such a conclusion. A scientist (Robin Collins, PhD, physics) described the “anthropic principle” (as it’s known in philosophy) as “the extraordinary balancing of the fundamental laws and parameters of physics and the initial conditions of the universe.” He further echoes the findings of Paul Davies (writer of “Cosmic Jackpot”) that the coincidences are simply too amazing to have been happenstance. Our universe has just the right conditions to sustain life.
We only know of ONE configuration of life. To take a position that the probability for the conditions of life is so unlikely therefore it must have been a creator is ignoring the probability that among the billions of stars there is no other form of life besides what we know on Earth. That probability is even smaller than what is brought forth in the Fine Tuning argument.
As of today, June 10, 2013, there is no other life in the universe save Earth. And it’s not because nobody’s been looking, either.
If we look at the Fine Tuning argument from the standpoint that life is the product of playing by the universe’s rules, instead of universe’s playing the rules of what is needed to create life, then Fine Tuning becomes completely irrelevant. Life is not the tail that wags the dog here.
Who set “the universe’s rules” in motion? Rules demand a rule giver; they don’t appear out of nowhere. You have (wittingly or not) ascribed the universe as the result of deliberate creation. Thanks for making my point for me.
#6 — Doesn’t Santa Clause exist to maintain morality in little children? But who makes up those “naughty and nice” rules? Humans do. “Clean your room or you get a lump of coal”. Is that one of the commandments from god? No. Humans created that rule. Just as humans have created moral codes to co-exist as a species. Again, this is another logical fallacy of arguing from ignorance: we don’t understand morality, so it must be from a god.
It’s not an argument from ignorance; we’re not ignorant of morality or laws that constrain it. We simply choose to suppress our consciences or our morality when it might benefit us. Again, if there are “rules”, then there is a rule giver. Rules do not simply appear out of nowhere. Where do we as humans get the idea of behavior that is right or wrong?
#7 — PEAR: “to pursue rigorous scientific study of the interaction of human consciousness with physical devices, systems, and processes common to contemporary engineering practice. PEAR closed its doors at the end of February 2007 with its founder, Robert G. Jahn, concluding that after tens of millions of trials they had demonstrated that human intention can have a non-local effect on physical targets.” —-nothing supernatural or god-like there. But it’s extremely dishonest how you reference their “…studies ongoing through the work at PEAR Labs” 6 years after they have shutdown. Note: there have been no scholarly articles since their official closure. #7 is probably the most intellectually dishonest of all seven points you bring forth, and that’s saying a lot. Please cite the publication in Lancet that supports your claim, as I was unable to find such support.
I think this is what you’re looking for (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673600820139) The article in question is "Dissociation in people who have near-death experiences: out of their bodies or out of their minds?" The Lancet, Volume 355, Issue 9202, 5 February 2000, Pages 460–463, by Dr Bruce Greyson, MDa
One does not prove that god does not exist (how could you?). The process takes the evidence that tries to prove god does exist and shows how the evidence is wrong. That’s how it works.
Wow, you’ve really loaded the deck against the theists, haven’t you? “Here’s the evidence, and it’s wrong!”
One makes a claim, provides evidence for that claim, and when the evidence is shown to be false, then the claim is false. You don’t continue to argue the claim is true without new evidence. If it worked any other way, then anyone anywhere could make any claim they liked and wait for others to prove them wrong.
You have also made false claims concerning the anthropic principle. I’m glad to see you’re learning from your mistakes.
Why must religion argue from probability, impossibility and the safety of ignorance because we don’t know all the answers to all the questions then the answers must be a god? Why is a god the default answer to the unknown? Have their not been unknowns in the past that were explained by the god answer only to be given a rational reason as more understanding was acquired? Have we not learned our lesson that the Sun does not revolve around the Earth? Religion simply gets in the way of the truth.
Spoken like a true atheist who has little to no real knowledge of religion. Science and faith aren’t at war. When scientific evidence and biblical teachings are correctly interpreted, they can and do support each other. Barb
Evidence: #1 & #2 -- Exact same quality. They are both anecdotal evidence. Anecdotal n. - "non-scientific observations or studies, which do not provide proof but may assist research efforts"...enough said. #3 -- Does not prove an existence of a supernatural god. This only argues that the universe must have a cause, but does not provide any evidence of what that cause is (or why). Plus this is a logical fallacy called Special Pleading: To argue that everything must have a beginning except god is illogical. #4 & #5-- Why do religious people always argue the universe as if it's a product for human species' existence instead of looking at human species' existence as a product of the universe? Arguing that small percentage changes in life sustaining variables does not provide ANY evidence for a god. So what if the universe constants were so different that human life could not exist? Why does it have to? The answer is because you have a presupposition for life. And why? Because you are biased based on the religious text that your read. You are arguing from an appeal to authority. The only thing Fine Tuning tells us is that life as we currently understand it would only have been very different. Since you are arguing that there is no evidence to "disprove God", then I argue there is no evidence to disprove there is no life on other planets in unimaginably different forms than our own. If that's so, Fine Tuning is even more fallacious. We only know of ONE configuration of life. To take a position that the probability for the conditions of life is so unlikely therefore it must have been a creator is ignoring the probability that among the billions of stars there is no other form of life besides what we know on Earth. That probability is even smaller than what is brought forth in the Fine Tuning argument. If we look at the Fine Tuning argument from the standpoint that life is the product of playing by the universe's rules, instead of universe's playing the rules of what is needed to create life, then Fine Tuning becomes completely irrelevant. Life is not the tail that wags the dog here. #6 -- Doesn't Santa Clause exist to maintain morality in little children? But who makes up those "naughty and nice" rules? Humans do. "Clean your room or you get a lump of coal". Is that one of the commandments from god? No. Humans created that rule. Just as humans have created moral codes to co-exist as a species. Again, this is another logical fallacy of arguing from ignorance: we don't understand morality, so it must be from a god. #7 -- PEAR: "to pursue rigorous scientific study of the interaction of human consciousness with physical devices, systems, and processes common to contemporary engineering practice. PEAR closed its doors at the end of February 2007 with its founder, Robert G. Jahn, concluding that after tens of millions of trials they had demonstrated that human intention can have a non-local effect on physical targets." ----nothing supernatural or god-like there. But it's extremely dishonest how you reference their "...studies ongoing through the work at PEAR Labs" 6 years after they have shutdown. Note: there have been no scholarly articles since their official closure. #7 is probably the most intellectually dishonest of all seven points you bring forth, and that's saying a lot. Please cite the publication in Lancet that supports your claim, as I was unable to find such support.
"The commonly seen rebuttals to these argument are simply attempting to show weaknesses in or alternatives to the arguments themselves so that such arguments cannot be taken as demonstratively convincing (that god exists); such counter-arguments as a rule do not actually make the case that god(as described above) in fact does not exist."
One does not prove that god does not exist (how could you?). The process takes the evidence that tries to prove god does exist and shows how the evidence is wrong. That's how it works. One makes a claim, provides evidence for that claim, and when the evidence is shown to be false, then the claim is false. You don't continue to argue the claim is true without new evidence. If it worked any other way, then anyone anywhere could make any claim they liked and wait for others to prove them wrong. This entire article is nonsensical. The "evidence" is based on logical fallacies and asserting "we don't understand or it's impossible by chance" so it MUST have been god (this is ALSO a logical fallacy). Why must religion argue from probability, impossibility and the safety of ignorance because we don't know all the answers to all the questions then the answers must be a god? Why is a god the default answer to the unknown? Have their not been unknowns in the past that were explained by the god answer only to be given a rational reason as more understanding was acquired? Have we not learned our lesson that the Sun does not revolve around the Earth? Religion simply gets in the way of the truth. Json
But that is objectively not true (if by ‘true things’ you mean Christianity). Atheists and other non-Christians are perfectly capable of being good, and avoiding negative consequences. Do you deny this?
That's entirely irrelevant to my point. Perhaps you missed the qualifier "might be" in the text you quoted. I'm not making a claim about Christians or non-Christians, I'm trying to understand KN's reason for arguing, because he doesn't seem to be arguing for any significant reason nor does he seem to be making a case about "what is true". William J Murray
William, you say...
For example, for a Christian presenting their case, the reason “why” one should care might be because knowing (or believing) true things is necessary to be able to be good, to pursue the good, and to avoid negative consequences
But that is objectively not true (if by 'true things' you mean Christianity). Atheists and other non-Christians are perfectly capable of being good, and avoiding negative consequences. Do you deny this? lastyearon
StephenB, My view on what "teleology" means is consonant with your view; Mung often reads to me like a zen koan and I start musing about different things. I just happened to write that musing down. I apologize if I contribute, in your view, to the misunderstanding in debates due to my layman application of terms and concepts. I wish that everyone was capable of understanding and engaging you and more rigorous and educated debaters here on your terms, but if that were so, we probably wouldn't be engaged in many such debates at all, and they probably wouldn't last very long. The culture war would be largely over by now - heck, it probably wouldn't have ever started in the first place. I recognize I bring a less precise armament to the fight, but I think (and hope!) that what I have to offer serves a good purpose. William J Murray
KN, I'm sorry if I'm being dense, but I don't recognize an answer to my question #2
Unless you are arguing about what you believe is objectively true, why should I care about anything you say here?)
... in your response at 672. I take what you say seriously; but that doesn't answer the question of why I should care about what you are arguing. If you are arguing for a social-pragmatist concept of agreed-upon rationality, what is the pragmatism in service of? Getting along with the least amount of conflict and the maximum amount of personal enjoyment? Is that the payoff, so to speak, for adopting your position - the goal of your argument? The question isn't, "why should anyone take you seriously", but rather "why should anyone care about what you say", even if what you say is true? For example, for a Christian presenting their case, the reason "why" one should care might be because knowing (or believing) true things is necessary to be able to be good, to pursue the good, and to avoid negative consequences. Believing true things helps to fulfill one's good purpose and God's plan, which are of ultimate significance and consequence both personally and as part of something greater than oneself and greater than any particular society or worldly consideration. So we can see that that "the reason why we should care about what the Christian argues in terms of rationality" is contingent upon a broader base of fundamental beliefs about who and what we are, and why we exist, informing the reason why arguing/debating about what is true matters. Whether or not one adopts this broader base of beliefs doesn't change the fact that IF one postulates that their position is true, THEN we have a good reason to care about what they argue, and whether or not their argument is valid. I can't understand (due to my own limited education in such matters, I'm sure) the context you are arguing from in the sense of why I should care what you have to say in the first place. As far as I can tell, you are not claiming that what you are arguing about is true in the objective sense, nor do I see that you have stated that what you are arguing for will necessarily have any benefit for me or society or anything else. IOW, it appears to me to be sophistry - argument just for the sake of argument. IOW, IF what you believe is true, THEN ... why should I care about your argument? Is there a downside to not believing as you do? You don't seem to claim there is. You don't seem to even be claiming that, outside of a pragmatism that may or may not appeal to anyone in particular, there is even any benefit for adopting your view. If your argument is true .. so what? From your point of view, am I supposed to care about "what is true" for its own sake for some reason? William J Murray
Kantian Naturalist
But is the social-pragmatic conception of rationality the “objectively correct” conception?Here I hesitate, for while I do think that it’s superior to other conceptions, I certainly don’t think that people who disagree with me are irrational, or that they don’t deserve to be taken seriously.
It is possible for one person to evaluate another person’s rationality only if there is some objective standard with which to do the evaluating. It has little to do with measuring intelligence: people of average intelligence can be quite rational while intelligent people can be hopelessly irrational. Like all decisions, the choice to be rational comes from the will: One either decides to be rational because he wants to find the truth or he decides not to be rational because he wants to avoid the truth. Accordingly, the decision to honor reason’s rules is inseparable from the commitment to discover the truth. Reason is the vehicle and truth is the destination. Without the destination, the vehicle has no legitimate function; without the vehicle, the destination is unattainable.
I think that there are good reasons for one to accept the social-pragmatist conception of rationality, and I think it’s a better conception than, say, the Platonic, Scholastic, or rationalistic conceptions.
It is important to know the difference between a famous philosopher and a great philosopher. Sadly, history is rife with intelligent men who would prefer to avoid the truth. While it is impossible (and would be presumptuous) to test for their motivations and intentions, it is easy to spot the two great weaknesses in their writings--blatant contradictions and sloppily formed definitions. This is certainly the case with the pragmatist philosophers. They avoid the truth by trying to pervert its meaning. Truth, as Aristotle (a great philosopher) points out is “saying of what is that it is and of what is not that it is not.” Truth is the correspondence between what you know or say and what is. Pragmatism, the notion that truth is what works for the individual, is completely irrational. It is based either on an unconscious confusion or a conscious perversion of the meaning of words. We already have words for what works, namely “efficient” or “effective.” Truth doesn’t mean efficient, or effective, or practical, as I have made clear. As G.E. Moore points out, what is true is not always practical (death) and what is practical is not always true (a successful lie). Atheists and agnostics, who rule the academy, lionize third-rate philosophers and carry on as if they were first-rate philosophers. Meanwhile, the truly great thinkers are shunted off to the side.
As for the content of the present discussion: there are, as the pragmatists like to say, different degrees of clarity — or, of conceptual grasp or mastery. At the most basic level, one’s grasp of a concept consists of one’s ability to use a word in sentences that are intelligible to others who share that language.
The content of the present discussion is about rationality, not clarity. Granted, a rational argument should be clear, but the two ideas are hardly synonymous. Or again, one’s grasp of a concept is not the same thing as the ability to communicate it. Granted, one must understand a concept to communicate it, but the two ideas are not the same. I am not trying to be unduly critical here, but this is a recurring problem. Rather than address a topic head on, you often introduce a new series of distinctions related to some novel idea that has little to do with the subject matter on the table.
One point I’d like to stress is that the social-pragmatist conception is a historical conception, in the double sense that rationality is fundamentally historical and that we come to understand that rationality is fundamentally history by reflecting on the history of conceptions of rationality.
We have been down this road before. You claim that rationality is socially constructed, and I respond by explaining why that cannot be the case. You insist that I misunderstood you and that you meant something else, but when the time seems right, you repeat the claim that rationality is socially constructed. StephenB
There is no reason to think that Revelation is not inspired. The events came to pass as and when prophesied. The 'Mark' is not meant to be taken as a literal inscription on the hand or head. Mung
I don't know if I believe the "Book of Revelation" is "God breathed scripture" or not (I think it probably is not), but I won't be accepting no "mark" in my hard or forehead. Can I get a WITNESS!?! CentralScrutinizer
Let me just say that I'm not interested in trying to persuade anyone here to take me seriously, or to engage with me in conversation. I think I have something valuable to offer, and I think that I should be taken seriously here, but if people here decide that they're not interested in doing so, I'll respect that choice -- I'm not going to waste my time persuading people to take me seriously if they don't already see the value of my contributions. As for the content of the present discussion: there are, as the pragmatists like to say, different degrees of clarity -- or, of conceptual grasp or mastery. At the most basic level, one's grasp of a concept consists of one's ability to use a word in sentences that are intelligible to others who share that language. Since we all understand that we're talking about the concept of rationality, we're well beyond that minimal, basic stage. (No one here has any difficulty understanding what is said by "you're being irrational!". One might disagree with the claim but still understand it perfectly well.) We're at the point where we're arguing about the reasons for and against adopting different conceptions of 'rationality', as we might also argue about different conceptions of 'beauty' or 'goodness' or 'truth' or any other notion that is centrally located in our intellectual orientations. I think that there are good reasons for one to accept the social-pragmatist conception of rationality, and I think it's a better conception than, say, the Platonic, Scholastic, or rationalistic conceptions. One point I'd like to stress is that the social-pragmatist conception is a historical conception, in the double sense that rationality is fundamentally historical and that we come to understand that rationality is fundamentally history by reflecting on the history of conceptions of rationality. Thus, for example, I think that Kant improves upon earlier conceptions by pointing that rational inferences must be integrated with sensory information in order to yield judgments about possible experience, and that Hegel and Peirce improve significantly on Kant by pointing out that concepts themselves are laden with historical significance, that judgment is carried out in the context of communal inquiry, and that previous philosophers have been held captive by what Sellars famously calls "the Myth of the Given." The social-pragmatist conception of rationality does not accommodate any such notions as "presuppositionless knowledge," "intuitive knowledge," "revealed knowledge", "clear by the light of reason," "intellectual intuition", "phenomenological disclosure," etc. But is the social-pragmatic conception of rationality the "objectively correct" conception? Here I hesitate, for while I do think that it's superior to other conceptions, I certainly don't think that people who disagree with me are irrational, or that they don't deserve to be taken seriously. I do think that our conceptions of such notions as reason, knowledge, meaning, inference, perception, imagination, etc. does become more and more sophisticated and precise over time. Truth, Peirce famously said, lies at the end of inquiry. So I can construe, as a regulative ideal, an ideal community of inquirers for whom inquiry had come to an end; their conceptions of the universe, and of themselves as part of that universe, would be absolutely correct --- nothing could alter them. But such an ideal is useful to us only insofar as it offers us a picture of where we are heading, with no precise road-map of how to get there. Absolute truth is the idealized limit that the history of the community of inquirers approaches asymptotically. Kantian Naturalist
KN, (1) When you use the phrase "the concept" near the end of 670, are you talking about what you consider to be an objectively true concept of rationality, your particular conceptualization of rationality, or something you imagine to be within some consensus, vague idea of what "rational" is generally agreed to mean? (2) Unless you are arguing about what you believe is objectively true, why should I care about anything you say here? William J Murray
I do think of rational principles as explications of what is implicit in our norm-governed practices, but I don't think of those practices as the result of agreement, as (for example) Hobbes and Locke thought about the origins of morality. And I do think that the practices, and so too the norms to which we are committed, are not 'set in stone' -- at any point, the question, "should we accept these norms?" can arise. What we call rational principles have an ultimate authority for us in the sense that they are not deduced from any other principles, but that does not mean that it would irrational for us to alter them. I don't think there's anything irrational about logics with more than two truth-values, or logics in which the law of the excluded middle does not always hold. More generally, I follow Carnap, Sellars, and Brandom in treating deontic (including ethical), alethic, causal modalities as material mode metalinguistic speech about the inferential commitments and priorities embedded within linguistic practices. This does not negate the authority of those modalities, but explains it. By my lights, someone counts as rational if she can enter into the social space of reasons, can contribute to the game of giving and asking for reasons -- and that involves such capacities as: being able to respond with a reason when asked for one; being able to ask for a reason, and understand when a reason has and has not been provided; make explicit her own inferences; assess her own inferences; assess the inferences of others, whether implicit in their behavior or explicit in their avowals; and so on. (Young children are slowly initiated into this space as they mature, and noticing how their rational capacities mature is one of the many joys of parenthood.) Of course putting the point this way is an idealization, and the reality is that inequalities of power and affluence introduce massive distortions into this picture of idealized communicative reciprocity. But that's just part of what makes those inequalities and privileges count as unjust and irrational. (The community of rational inquirers is not the only dimension of the moral community, of course, but it plays a central role in the story.) That said, it's a serious mistake to conflate these two different things: giving an account of what it is to be rational, and giving an account of how we came to be rational. The former is a matter of explicating the concept of 'rationality'; the latter is a matter of explaining the origins of rationality. It's important to keep track of the different areas of disagreement. Obviously, I have a much more modest ("deflationary") conception of rationality than, say, StephenB seems to. But having a different conception of rationality is not the same thing as lacking the concept altogether, or not being entitled to the concept, or having an inadequate grasp of the concept. Just as obviously, I can see why someone in the Aristotelian-Thomist tradition might think that my conception of rationality is flawed and that my grasp of the concept is inadequate, but since I hold the same view of people in that tradition, belaboring the point is not terribly helpful. And while I'm skeptical of any possibility of reconciliation, I do think that there's plenty of room for further clarification of the relevant issues, and that can only be done through that synergy of reflection and dialogue that philosophy has been since the Socratic revolution. Kantian Naturalist
Some versions have 616 rather than 666. spooky. Mung
Thanks Mung. Would you believe that I knew what I was doing and just wanted to make sure that you were on your toes? Would you believe that I typed in 662 and 266 appeared? Would you believe that simply I blew it? 266 should be 662. StephenB
The neighbor of the beast. Chance Ratcliff
666 Mung
266? Mung
kairosfocus @266 I believe that your use of the fire tetrahedron to dramatize the difference between necessary and sufficient causality is a classic. Who would have thought that someone could explain an abstract philosophical principle by describing the concrete physical and chemical effects of lighting a match? Great stuff!! . StephenB
And, more generally, I’ve denied that one’s membership in the community of rational beings stands or falls with one’s acceptance (or rejection) of any particular metaphysical position.
Denial is not a rational rebuttal. The human mind can deny anything. Ever wonder why that should be possible? What is actually being said in this paragraph? What does it mean to be a "member in the community of rational beings"? Who defines the parameters of that "community"? What does "rational" mean, from KN's perspective? If there are no objectively valid definitions or criteria applied for being "a member of the community of rational beings", then he has said nothing more than: "I can call myself rational regardless of what I believe and how I argue it." IOW, "I'm perfectly rational because I say so." Indeed, KN's statement about " membership in the rational community" is without any significant value other than as manipulative rhetoric unless he subscribes to a particular metaphysical position. Arguing anything, outside of rhetoric and sophistry, requires a certain metaphysical position. Denying it doesn't change that fact. William J Murray
SB: Well put. My own development at 101 level is here on. I hope it will help catalyse [re-]thinking. KF kairosfocus
Kantian Naturalist
If you think I’ve tried to reduce either logic or causation to either mental models or sociological constructs, I don’t think you really understand my views about norms, social practices, and realism.
I can only respond to what you write, and I think I have fairly summarized your views. You have described the Laws of Identity and Causality as agreed upon "norms," not as self-evident truths that apply in each and every case to the real world. Consistent with that view, you have argued that the rules of right reason need not be fixed and were not necessarily "discovered." All this ties in with your position that a temporal and contingent universe does not necessarily require a first cause. To be sure, you have qualified the point by saying that you will not dogmatically say that the universe did come into existence without a cause, but that is just another way of saying that you allow for the possibility that such may be the case. So, I have no reason to believe that I do not understand your views.
But since you have an a priori commitment to identifying rationalism and theism, such that the very notion of rational naturalism can’t make any sense to you, I’m not surprised you’re not able to understand my views.
From a philosophical point of view, I am committed only to the first principles of right reason and the reliability of noumenal knowledge, from which my theism follows as surely as the night follows the day. StephenB
In re: StephenB @ 658:
Every atheist/agnostic I have ever interacted with tries to reduce logic and causality to mental models or sociological constructs. Whenever atheism confronts reason; reason will lose. That is why the atheist (and the agnostic) feels the need to attack reason. It has no other arguments.
If you think I've tried to reduce either logic or causation to either mental models or sociological constructs, I don't think you really understand my views about norms, social practices, and realism. But since you have an a priori commitment to identifying rationalism and theism, such that the very notion of rational naturalism can't make any sense to you, I'm not surprised you're not able to understand my views. William Murray, is there a point you're trying to make with your (659)? Kantian Naturalist
What I’ve consistently denied is, firstly, that the intelligibility of objectivity entails (or presupposes) the existence of God or belief therein
That's the great and terrible thing about the mind: it can deny anything. Or accept anything. I wonder how the mind can have such an ability? William J Murray
Kantian Naturalist
I realized a long time ago that there aren’t any really decisive arguments for or against the existence of God. For every good theistic argument there’s a cogent atheistic response, and for every good atheistic argument there’s a cogent theistic response. So if one were to be strictly rational, I suppose one should be an agnostic.
It doesn't require much of a leap to observe the fact that regularity implies order, which in turn, requires an orderer (God, first cause, lawgiver etc). This is a perfectly reasonable argument. The only faith necessary is the apriori commitment to the first rules of right reason. It is the atheist who must make the leap, either by questioning causality or denying our ability to know anything. Every atheist/agnostic I have ever interacted with tries to reduce logic and causality to mental models or sociological constructs. Whenever atheism confronts reason; reason will lose. That is why the atheist (and the agnostic) feels the need to attack reason. It has no other arguments. StephenB
Ah, well, there's the rub, isn't it? Throughout all of the conversations we've had here, I've consistently upheld the objectivity of normativity (here I'm taking normativity in the broad sense to include both norms of belief, i.e. epistemology and logic and norms of conduct, i.e. ethics). What I've consistently denied is, firstly, that the intelligibility of objectivity entails (or presupposes) the existence of God or belief therein; secondly, and in my view as a much more basic issue, that "objective" means "absolute." If I thought that objectivity is the same as, or entails, absoluteness, I'd be in a very position in the dialectic. And, more generally, I've denied that one's membership in the community of rational beings stands or falls with one's acceptance (or rejection) of any particular metaphysical position. The debates that we have here tend to revolve around the assumption that the only genuine choices we have are theism or nihilism. I have been a theist, and I have been a nihilist, and I'm no longer either. I reject both, and I think I've got a genuine alternative. In light of that, I'll continue to hold that the objectivity of our intellectual and ethical norms does not depend on theism. Kantian Naturalist
I realized a long time ago that there aren’t any really decisive arguments for or against the existence of God. For every good theistic argument there’s a cogent atheistic response, and for every good atheistic argument there’s a cogent theistic response. So if one were to be strictly rational, I suppose one should be an agnostic.
In order for the arguments themselves to be cogent or not cogent, they would have to have value in and of themselves, and logic would have to be assumed as an objective, valid arbiter of the cogency of such arguments, and one would have to assume that humans have access to the objective application of such reasoning methodology. Otherwise, all you are saying here is that the way the arguments affect you personally is that they are equally "cogent". Isn't it interesting how all those hidden assumptions about objective values populate every comment, even when one intellectually denies they are necessary for their statements? If you aren't claiming that the cogency of both arguments is objectively equal, who the heck cares that you personally find them to be so? Everyone personally finds them to be somehow situated in comparison; without an objective means to arbit, all you (or anyone, for that matter) are expressing here is what flavor of pie you prefer (in your case, neither). William J Murray
Though this thread seems to have petered out, I found myself writing a bit on the topic yesterday in an email to a friend, and it seems germane to this conversation, so I've copied and pasted here: I realized a long time ago that there aren't any really decisive arguments for or against the existence of God. For every good theistic argument there's a cogent atheistic response, and for every good atheistic argument there's a cogent theistic response. So if one were to be strictly rational, I suppose one should be an agnostic. Both theism and atheism require a leap of faith. But I don't think that either theism or atheism has any essential connection to spirituality; I've met more than a few atheists who were deeply spiritual, and more than a few theists who were not. The question about theism or atheism is about one's sense of intellectual orderliness and comprehensibility to reality, whereas spirituality (or the lack thereof) is about one's sense of openness and receptivity to that which transcends the self. That spiritual theists call this transcendence "God" and spiritual atheists call it "Beauty" or "Love" or "Nature" is of secondary importance. The important thing is, I don't think there's any reason to believe that atheists own the market on rationality or that theists own the market on spirituality. Kantian Naturalist
F/N: Maybe, part of the underlying issue is the battle for truth in a world where ill prepared youngsters are often immersed in a milieu that imagines that radical relativism represents progress. KF kairosfocus
F/N: Without endorsing all that is therein, the exchange with the circle around Loftus et al here and here may help give some balance on the sort of issues and concerns on tone, substance and level I have with too much of today's common skepticism. My remarks here on, on what I have descriptively called selective hyperskepticism [cf. here on a more reasonable approach], may also help. And since the Christian Faith is specifically in the cross-hairs above, here on in context -- including this on, on an exchange between Ehrman and Craig -- may prove helpful. KF kairosfocus
JLA: When one considers their choice to be between whatever experience and understanding they have of Christianity and atheism, then one is not choosing from reason, but rather from ignorance usually informed by emotion and rhetoric. This is relatively easy to spot when atheists cannot comprehend - much less respond to - the simplest and most basic logical criticism - such as that which KF provides on a regular basis. William J Murray
JLA, Sorry, but the matters stand as shown and indicated above, and this would also be relevant to thinking worldviewishly at 101 level, as would be this as a first look on the problem of the New Atheists (and try here on for some specific issues on the wider circle). With all due respects, we live in an age of rhetoric, not on the whole one of serious and well informed thought -- and that is something that has been abundantly manifest not only in this thread but all over this site. KF kairosfocus
KF I think that is a bit of an unfair statement. From what I’ve read on a few on the de-converted websites, they really struggled with the challenge and loss of their faith. I’m sure that was no different with the celebrity atheists. They lost faith because they couldn’t justify holding on to it anymore possibly due to evolution, old earth, problem of evil, Noah’s flood etc. To them atheism seemed more rational and true than theism did. I wouldn’t say that they lost their faith due to the pop culture and fashion of the day but because of what scientific and philosophical evidence against it. I sympathize with them because there are some things that I have trouble reconciling too. If Christianity is true, would there be a need to reconcile anything or would the truth be completely apparent as to be smooth and easy to see? JLAfan2001
JLA: The soundness of a movement and its ability to attract a following or become fashionable or even dominant, too often have little or nothing to do with each other; behold the power of rhetoric. The issue is not whether many have hopped on the band wagon -- and the New Atheist movement in particular has been notorious for sophomoric stances as has been panned from across the board -- but how well warranted the view is. The above thread is showing serious gaps in the currently fashionable atheism. KF kairosfocus
If atheism is not justifiable then why would former Christians like Dan Barker, John Loftus, Michael Shermer, Hector Avalos, Francisco Ayala and Bart Erhman become atheists? I know that some atheists have become Christians but that really isn’t the question. If atheism is poor why are so many people converting to it? JLAfan2001
Well, that certainly is a lot of questions! Answering them carefully and adequately would take a book, at least, and I'm not going to write a book in the form of blog comments -- I just don't have that kind of time. If one is interested in Kantian ethics and doesn't have the time (or motivation!) to read much of or about Kant, there is one book I'm willing to: Moral Clarity: A Guide for Grown-Up Idealists by Susan Neiman. Neiman was a student of John Rawls, and for another really interesting and quite promising extension of Rawls' "Kantian liberalism", Martha Nussbaum's "capabilities approach" to global justice is, I think, one of the best approaches I've seen. (But global justice is not my field, so I'm speaking out of ignorance here.) Kantian Naturalist
So when you say the pre-mortem consequence as dealt out by society, how is this not a simple case of might makes right? What if I don't happen to agree with whatever their version of the categorical imperative happens to be at the time? By what right - other than their might capacity to do so - do they impose their moral punishment upon me? Will I not be morally punished by those with might in some cultures for not allowing my daughter - or someone's daughter - to have their genitals mutilated? Will I not be morally punished by those with the might to do so for speaking up for women, for minorities, or for the lower caste? How are such "Moral" penalties any different from the coercion of the mighty as they impose their will on the weak or the few? By what principle do you call the structure of one culture moral, and another immoral, other than some arbitrary, vague decree of "abnormal", "uneducated", and "immature"? What meaningful standard is there to go by that has not served any conceivable interest - good or bad - in the history of mankind? What purpose does Kantian morality serve that I should endure a life of torture and misery in service to ... well ... no goal whatsoever. What consequence does it offer for ignoring its direction that is anything other than the mighty imposing it's will on the weak? William J Murray
Why should I bother trying to do what is right? Am I trying to create an ideal society? Is that the goal? Ideal by what standard? Frankly, my ideal society is one where everyone serves my interests. Should I work towards that "ideal society"? Why should I avoid doing wrong, if it profits me to do so? Do people who do wrong not succeed in this world? Are they unhappy? Do they have less money? Or fame? Less food, or friends? Do they lack the love of their wife or children? Do you imagine they suffer from some missing quality that doesn't haunt the rest of us, just because they do wrong things? What about the people that were martyred for doing the right thing? Killed, boiled, heads cut off, tortured, etc. What the heck is the point in that under Kantian morality. If I live in a culture of slave-owners, should I turn mine free and advocate against slavery? Why? Do you think slave-holders considered themselves evil? Did they lose sleep, did they not love, did they not laugh? William J Murray
Human administered and psychological consequence is not necessary consequence, so no, it is not "sufficient" to move morality beyond simple "might makes right" threat. Regardless of whether the consequence is post-mortem or pre-mortem, unless it is necessary - meaning, the consequence is utterly unavoidable - then .. so what? There's no reason to risk anything to do what is right, and no reason to avoid wrongs that carry no significant consequence. William J Murray
Morality without necessary consequence is nothing more than rhetoric and sophistry.
Do you mean postmortem, divinely-administered consequence? Or are pre-mortem social and psychological consequences sufficient? If the former, why? If the latter, any reasonable humanism can easily accommodate it. Kantian Naturalist
Kant doesn't think that anyone goes through their daily life with these formulas in mind as if they were slogans. He claims, rather, that idea of the categorical imperative explicates what is implicit in the actual practice of moral agency -- in particular, it explicates the tension between respect for the autonomy and dignity of others and the desires and urges we experience as animals. Granted, Kant is a bit too Stoic for my taste in this regard, and I prefer a more Aristotelian approach in which the rational and animal sides of our nature are not always locked in some perpetual conflict, but rather that with the right kinds of education or upbringing, they are brought into something like harmony most of the time. Kantian Naturalist
Morality without necessary consequence is nothing more than rhetoric and sophistry. William J Murray
KN: I have no reason to consider any of the formulas in any of my daily activities. In fact, I reject them. I guess then, by definition, I must be uneducated .. and/or abnormal ... and/or immature. Oh well ... so what? William J Murray
So far as I can tell, Kant would treat the question, "who made the moral law?" as equivalent to "where did the moral law come from?". And that question has no answer. The moral law is just reason itself in its practical aspect, and reason is, in some sense I do not fully understand, supposed to be 'ultimate': that there is no account of the origins of reason, since any such account presupposes reason. Reason is the ratio cognoscendi; there isn't anything deeper or more fundamental than that. It's worth pointing out that, in the Critique of the Power of Judgment, Kant tries to unify the mechanistic, physical world of nature and the rational, intellectual world of human freedom. He does so by arguing that we are entitled to conceive of God as "the author of nature" who created nature for the sake of rational agents. There at least, it becomes clear (as clear as things are in Kant!) that rational nature is an end-in-itself because of divine creativity. (Bearing in mind, of course, that we cannot know that this is so -- being rationally entitled to believe it is the most that Kant aims for.) It is true that Kant's entire account of judgment and experience is fundamentally anthropocentric. He rejected the theocentric approach of the Scholastics and the rationalists (but without abandoning their commitment to the a priori forms of logical inference). Fairly clearly, he did so under the influence of Hume and a few others. (Personally, I think that Kant still took Hume too seriously, and that really purging Kant's insights of the vestiges of empiricism was one of the big accomplishments of Hegel and Peirce. 20th-century analytic philosophy began with a return to Hume from which it has not yet recovered, despite occasional outbreaks of rationalist metaphysics.) Of course, to those who are still committed to the theocentric approach, Kant's anthropocentrism might seem -- I don't know? -- arrogant? hubristic? arbitrary? -- but I think of it as, to use Kant's words, "man's emergence from his self-incurred immaturity". Kantian Naturalist
According to Kant, the moral law is enacted by reason and demands obedience from mere respect for reason. That is what makes it subjective. Reason is its source. The reciprocal point is clear. The categorical imperative is not enacted buy a higher power. For Kant, necessity and universality cannot be derived from experience but from the mind alone. The categorical imperative is a law unto itself and is not, therefore, subject to the sanctions of any lawgiver. By its standards, we are to obey the testimony of our reason as opposed to anything on the order of a Divinely-enacted natural moral law. The assumption is that man is an end in himself and is not, therefore, morally obliged to seek his highest good, namely God. And yes, I would argue that this is a man-made law. If not man, then who else made the law? Kant has already ruled out God. These are, after all, only two candidates to be considered are they not? Ironically, the categorical imperative belongs to the intelligible world, and is, according to the "Critique of Pure Reason", absolutely unknowable. Even so, we are told in Kant’s ethics that we must obey the categorical imperative as a knowable principle. In that sense, Kant’s ethics completely contradict his anti-metaphysics, which is no small fault. In any case, if man is morally autonomous, he is, in that sense, emancipated from God and does not recognize God as the supreme good. So, in answer to WJM’s question, no—for Kant, there is no penalty for violating the categorical imperative since there this law is not inherent in nature [like the natural moral law] but only in the mind. It is impossible to know if Kant allows for a painful conscience since his thinking is so muddled in this area that one could argue either way. StephenB
I think that, as Kant would see it, someone who acts contrary to the moral law has lost the right to respect him or herself as a rational and autonomous being. One has lost the right to belong to the moral community. At work here, though, are complex pictures of human psychology. What seems to me to be at work in Murray's conception of human psychology is something like this: human beings are like little children, who will act according to their selfish desires at any opportunity unless there is some sort of adult supervision to make sure that those who do the wrong thing are appropriately punished. I don't know -- I doubt I'm being fair to Murray, but that's the impression I get. And that's quite, quite different from the Kantian conception, and from mine. On my conception, which is not quite Kantian, a normal, mature human being who has had a decent education will care about other people, will care about helping them and not harming them, and will care about doing the right thing at the right time and in the right way. It is fundamentally to our animal nature that we have cares and concerns -- many animals do! -- and as rational animals, we can modify our cares and concerns, our animal side, so that we care about deliberating from the moral point of view. I mean, this just seems perfectly obvious to me -- what exactly am I missing here? (Now, it might be pointed out that in contemporary Western societies, we have a system of social, economic, cultural, and political rewards and sanctions that pretty much promotes sociopathic or nearly-sociopathic behaviors: narcissism, greed, short-sightedness, individualism, the desirability of slick charm over real substance, of image over reality, etc. In response, I would say that our real tendency to reward narcissism over decency is a feature of what barely-restricted capitalism, dependent on continuous overconsumption and overproduction, has done to our psyches, and offers little guidance for what might be concluded about "human nature.") Kantian Naturalist
Yes, Kant has a list of "shoulds" .. but apparently never says why I should. Or should not. William J Murray
If you can get away with it, and justify it to yourself, there are no negative consequences. Humans have "motivations" for doing both good and evil things. Humans can justify just about any behavior. In some cases, there is social ostracism and negative consequences for doing the right thing and behaving as a good person. In some peer groups, you are in danger if you do "the right thing". Why should I put my life at risk for doing the right thing, if there is no necessary consequence for my actions? Why should I ever put anyone else's interest above my own? Why shouldn't I just "fake" being a good person as long as it suits my interests? No necessary consequences = So what? I'll be moral when it is convenient, necessary (to avoid punishment), or suits my goals ... but wait, that's not really being moral .. err.. ethical, is it? I mean, according to Kant? Why would you have a serious quarrel with someone who considers that philosophy incomplete? What difference does it make to you? William J Murray
So, in other words, there are no necessary, negative consequences for disobeying the categorical imperative. Which leads us to the only necessary rebuttal to the categorical imperative: If I can get away with it, so what?
I don't really understand where you're coming from here. Suppose there aren't any postmortem negative consequences, but all sorts of premortem negative consequences, both psychological (e.g. guilt, shame) and social (ostracism, disappointment, legal punishments). Are those not enough, somehow? If not, why not? Bearing in mind, though, I have no idea if Kant believed in divinely administered postmortem rewards or punishments. Maybe he did. I don't know, and I also don't care. It seems utterly absurd to me to think that divinely-administered postmortem rewards and punishments have any deep or essential connection to one's motivations for living a morally decent life. I know there are some deeply religious people for whom that does factor into their conception of themselves as moral beings, and I have no serious quarrel with that -- I do have serious quarrel with the thought that one's moral philosophy is somehow incomplete without that or some substitute for it. Kantian Naturalist
632: So, in other words, there are no necessary, negative consequences for disobeying the categorical imperative. Which leads us to the only necessary rebuttal to the categorical imperative: If I can get away with it, so what? William J Murray
In Kant’s view, is there a necessary, practical downside (penalty) for disobeying the categorical imperative? If not, why should I care about obeying the categorical imperative?
Kant develops his thoughts on this question most fully in Religion Within the Bounds of Reason Alone, which I have not yet read, where he develops his account of "radical evil." Radical evil occurs when we knowingly and deliberately act contrary to the categorical imperative. (As opposed to acting contrary to the categorical imperative out of impulse, lack of self-control, failure to deliberate adequately, etc.) But I think Kant would say that, as rational beings, we cannot avoid taking an interest in the moral point of view. We care about the moral law just because we are rational agents. On this, I think Kant has a very interesting point, though I'm not completely delighted with how he puts it: what Kant denies is that it's possible to suppose that a normal mature human being could have some intelligible point of view exterior to the moral point of view, such that the trick is get them inside morality from outside of it. (Hobbes, importantly, affirms this -- that's why he's able to generate morality through agreements between rational (but self-interested) individuals.) Rather, for Kant, a normal mature human necessarily cares about the moral point of view, because she is necessarily rational. (It's the "necessarily" there that I'm uneasy about; I would prefer, "is overwhelmingly likely to", or something close to that.) As for 'penalties': well, Kant doesn't think that there are postmortem penalties, if that's what you're asking. But there are plenty enough pre-mortem penalties for normal, mature human beings who act contrary to the moral law, if you ask me.) Interestingly, Kant does think that we should believe in immortality of the soul, but his argument for this claim is pretty intricate. Suffice it to say that if someone were to start off with a basically Kant ethical theory, and then take the existence of God and the immortality of the soul off the table, what one would be left with is a deeply tragic view of life: a view of life in which there is no guarantee that doing the right thing will lead to personal satisfaction or happiness, of any kind, ever. And that is indeed what I believe. Kantian Naturalist
For Kant, the moral law does not come from God. It is a man-made law by which we decide to bind ourselves. It is a matter of subjective intention only. It is not a misrepresentation to say so. It is a misrepresentation to try to make it appear as anything other than that.
It's certainly true that Kant does not think that the moral law a decree of the divine will, but he clearly doesn't think that the moral law is "man-made", in the sense of being an product of our collective caprice or whim. Kant makes it perfectly clear that the moral law is intrinsic to the very nature of rationality agency as such: any rational being, if it is an agent, will be bound by the moral law and recognize itself as being thus bound. Kant is actually pretty clear that he thinks of normal mature human beings as rational animals. As animals, we have various inclinations that sometimes go against the requirements of the moral law. But as rational beings, we always have the duties that the moral law imposes upon us. We simply have the free will to act contrary to those duties, i.e. the free will to do wrong. Since, however, we are fundamentally rational beings as well as animals, to act contrary to the moral law is to rebel against our own rational nature. Importantly, the categorical imperative comes in three main "formulations", of which the relationships between them are of interest only to serious Kant scholars. I shall paraphrase, loosely but I hope to good effect: (1) the Formula of Universal Law: you should act only according to those intentions which you can simultaneously conceive of as, and desire that they be, how everyone acts. (2) the Formula of Humanity: always act so as to treat humanity, whether in your own person or in that of another, always as having intrinsic dignity also and never as a mere instrument only. (3) the Formula of the Kingdom of Ends: always act as if through one's actions one could bring into being an ideal moral community in which everyone is friends with everyone else. (Personally, I'm more drawn to the 2nd formulation than the other two; I attribute that to having read Buber's I and Thou at the impressionable age of 19.) But as for the "formality" of the categorical imperative, I'm less concerned about this than others. Another way to think about this is to say that the categorical imperative is a procedure; it constrains our actions by telling us which desires it is morally permissible to act upon. (The first formula is clearly the most proceduralistic of the three.) But it is a procedure that does generate a kind of content of its own, as a "regulative ideal" of human conduct, what Kant calls "the kingdom of ends". Here's a way of thinking about it: the kingdom of ends is a society in which everyone is friends with everyone else. That functions as a regulative ideal for everyday human conduct in much the same way that a complete description of the physical universe functions as a regulative ideal for everyday scientific inquiry. Footnote: The moral law and the categorical imperative are not quite the same thing. The moral law holds for all rational agents, where a rational agent is any being that is able to act on the basis of reasons. The categorical imperative holds for all rational animals, because only animals, since they are affected by inclinations and desires, can experience the moral law as a constraint upon the will. So the divine will is bound by the moral law, but not by the categorial imperative, since God, lacking a physical side, has no inclinations or desires. Kantian Naturalist
In Kant's view, is there a necessary, practical downside (penalty) for disobeying the categorical imperative? If not, why should I care about obeying the categorical imperative? (Pardon my ignorance of Kant's views on this.) William J Murray
Kant’s views on the a priori grounding of the categorical imperative within pure practical reason itself are so subtle and complicated that it would be a serious misrepresentation to simply write him off as a “moral subjectivist.” For one thing, Kant clearly doesn’t think that the moral law is just what we happen to decide upon, as if it ultimately consists of our (contingent) psychological states.
For Kant, the moral law does not come from God. It is a man-made law by which we decide to bind ourselves. It is a matter of subjective intention only. It is not a misrepresentation to say so. It is a misrepresentation to try to make it appear as anything other than that. StephenB
Everyone who discusses matter like these know of Occam and his razor.
To know of Occham and his razor is not to understand Occham and his razor nor how it is properly employed. Mung
E: Namecalling and strawman tactics multiplied by trying to assert an unexamined metaphysics into being acceped, by rhetorical fiat. Does not work like you just tried. Just to start dealing with merits instead, address the issue of grounding morality objectively in the foundation of your worldview, or else frankly face the implications of radical relativisation of morals. KF kairosfocus
Kant's views on the a priori grounding of the categorical imperative within pure practical reason itself are so subtle and complicated that it would be a serious misrepresentation to simply write him off as a "moral subjectivist." For one thing, Kant clearly doesn't think that the moral law is just what we happen to decide upon, as if it ultimately consists of our (contingent) psychological states. Kantian Naturalist
kairosfocus 623; As I´ve said several times before; I can accept the idea of some sort of creator, but I cannot accept the idea of divine providence and divine moral codes. There are no such things! Everyone who discusses matter like these know of Occam and his razor. Why don´t you surrender to logic and simplicity instead of indulging into voluminous navel-gazing that leads to nothing? Elvis4708
PS: In addition, you face the problem of providing a viable, necessary being foundation of the cosmos without at least a generic god of the philosophers. Nothing means non-being, and can have no causative power, pace Hawking's recent error. We live in a credibly contingent world, one shaped in such a way that it sits at a very precise operating point that facilitates life. Assuming you are interested in a physical world model, you then have to bridge the gap to a viable solar system, then OOL with the scope of FSCO/I we see, then bridge to origin of body plans on an empirically demonstrated causal mechanism -- note the 6,000 word challenge essay is 4 months no answer today -- and then ground the credibility of conscious mind as accurately perceiving, correctly warranting and credibly knowing. None of these has been adequately bridged. Then you will have to face the consequence outlined since Plato in The Laws, Bk X: radical relativisation of morality and a result that entails that might and manipulation make 'right.' AKA, amoral nihilism. Just remember, I am a descendant of slaves, and I know the pivotal importance of adequate grounds for justice, rights and duties of care to neighbour. Where also, Hume's guillotine highlights that the place where an adequate grounding of morality can enter the world, is its foundation. finally, I am very aware that nihilist factions would find it very convenient to get a critical mass to go along with their might and manipulation make 'right' notions. KF kairosfocus
E: In addition to Mung's point (which is much like trying NOT to think about strawberry ice cream cones . . . ), if God is, then that would be so regardless of whether or not people accept it. And indeed, remember the price tag for the assertion that there is no God: as God is a serious candidate necessary being, inherently, the thing that would block God from being is that such a being is IMPOSSIBLE. As can be seen from above in this thread. Are you prepared to argue that God is IMPOSSIBLE? If so, on what grounds, especially after the fate of the deductive form of the problem of evil post Plantinga's free will defense. KF kairosfocus
StephenB 621; You have nothing to say. Exit StephenB... Elvis4708
Elvis4708
I understand it´s very painful for you to think about a world without your god. But imagine! Try to imagine! Think of a world without your god. Think of a world where all humans totally agree that there is no god! Given this; where do your objective moral codes come from other than some sort of consensus or pure reason(Kant)?
Objective moral codes coming from pure reason? Kant the moral subjectivist as the source for objective morality? Even after multiple correctives, you still do not know the difference between a subject and an object. It seems that you are not capable of rational thought. StephenB
Think of a world without your god.
To think of a world without God is to think of God. So, StephenB, do the impossible, go ahead. Mung
StephenB 601; Am I so special? Thank you! But I think you are wrong. I´m not that special. Check your sources! I understand it´s very painful for you to think about a world without your god. But imagine! Try to imagine! Think of a world without your god. Think of a world where all humans totally agree that there is no god! Given this; where do your objective moral codes come from other than some sort of consensus or pure reason(Kant)? You are cornered StephenB! Elvis4708
KN, re:
604: I think that if we’re really going to draw the line between the subjective and the objective in the right place, then “social facts” (prices, laws, etc.) will have to come out as objective. I’d like to place the onus on those who deny that social facts are objective to explain why that is. So just because something is objective, doesn’t really tell us where in the ultimate ontology it will fall. The objectivity of social facts is clearly quite different from the objectivity of logical principles or physical laws, and the objectivity of morality is almost certainly different from all of them. 606: it’s not really clear to me just why it is that objective knowledge needs to be ‘grounded’ in a ‘world-view’. If we have really good reasons to accept that morality is objective, why does it need to be ‘grounded’ in anything else? And as I’ve indicated many times before, I worry that ‘grounded’ in an “accordion word”: the meaning of it stretches and collapses according to context and use. I can think of at least three different senses of ‘grounding’: causal explanation, rational justification, and phenomenological elucidation. And while we do need all of them, they are not the same thing!
First, we live in a world where we face those who operate on the nihilist premise and praxis that might and manipulation make 'right,' and who routinely employ selectively hyperskeptical objections. So, coherence in warrant leads to moving across a range of knowledge areas and points. Next, warrant is inherently going to ask for underlying support. That process of challenge is going to have to end up somewhere, not least because we are finite, so we are forced to stop somewhere. In addition, we have things like the first principles of right reason that are rooted in the necessities of the world, i.e identity is a first step, distinction is locked into it and confusion is locked out, or we get nowhere. Similarly, once a thing exists, it is legitimate to ask, why and to seek a good answer. That leads to issues of causation and contingency and to the contrasted necessity. All of these and more push us to think worldviewishly. Certainly, as a community of thought and argument towards understanding and action. In that context what you call social facts are objective though often conventional. As the posted definition above highlights, they are of course understood and known by subjects but they are not simply in the minds of subjects. The definition of the unit of temperature, or length, or speed etc are objective but are conventional. That does not at all mean that all facts are conventional, nor that the use of language or symbols renders such facts to be mere conventions. The truth in 3 + 2 = 5 is necessary, and will hold in any possible world. And I use possible world talk to underscore the radical contingency in our course of events, the sheer, it could have significantly been otherwise-ness of it. That is as legitimate an entry point to discuss contingency/necessity and cause etc as any other alternative. And because it is empirical, it is far more appealing to our common sense ability to reason. A world in which instead of typing just now I had decided to go get a fruit snack, is obviously a logically and physically possible state of affairs that just happens not to have been realised because I made a choice to type rather than to eat. (Onlookers, believe it or not, this is a debated point in the rarified heights of philosophy.) Yes, the way in which something is objective varies on a case by case basis. No one pretended otherwise. But the basic point remains, such things are not figments of our fevered imaqinations, and hold regardless of our opinions, power games and manipulation games. We defy them to our peril. As the people of the Orient used to say, it is futile to try to order water to flow uphill. It would be even worse to try to build a social world on the assumption that water flowing downhill is a matter of convention and we can redefine reality to suit ourselves by making an agreement. Or, in Abraham Lincoln's deceptively simple example, he once asked one of his advisors what would happen if we defined that a sheep's tail were a leg. How many legs would a sheep then have. Five. Nope, simply saying that a tail is a leg does not make it into a leg, e.g. it simply cannot do what legs do. (For just one current instance on the significance of this sort of word magic confusion, those who are tossing around clever slogans on "marriage equality" and the like just now should do some serious rethinking about why marriage has universally been understood to be a way to stabilise and recognise the bond between man and woman in the context of raising up the next generation. And, we should ask ourselves some pretty hard questions about who would benefit from radical destabilisation of society through further undermining of marriage and/or who seeks to gain something enough for themselves that they are willing to run the social risks involved in manipulating society like this. [Onlookers, cf here and here on the Acts 27 challenge to democratic and managerial decision-making, in light of a highly relevant and instructive historical case. One I have used to teach the pitfalls in collective and managerial decision making.]) Just so, in the moral sphere, if lying were universalised, society would break down. That is one way of reasoning about the destructive nature of evils, and it helps people see the importance of keeping to moral principles and cultivating the character that habitually lives by the right and the truth. But an analytical concept such as the CI, as just used, does not substitute for character cultivation or sound instruction in principles and examples, or the influence of positive models of the principles. So, we see the very process of showing things objective puts them in a worldviews context, and points onward to the need for general grounding of a worldview. Absent that, we find the sort of all too malleable ignorance, lack of capability to think for oneself and resulting vulnerable instability that too many radicals are only too happy to find. Wolves love nice, peaceable, gullible sheep, for lunch. As in: easy meat. And yes, there may be sufficient grounding in a narrow sense in showing a narrow warrant for a given case, but that normally happens in cases where there is a general agreement on underlying principles, premises and contexts of wisdom. We no longer have that state, we live in a world where radical, ruthless, polarising pressure groups are perfectly willing to try to overthrow any and everything, in the interests of pushing their agendas. So, we need to address grounding issues in the full orbed worldviews sense. Which as a philosopher, you should be well aware of. Perhaps, you are trying to play at Socrates to pull out. Never mind, by the time of Aristotle, we see full didactic exposition as a standard approach and even in Plato's Socrates, we often enough see Socrates or some other stand-in going into full lecture or presentation mode. There is a place for back-forth conversation, thee is a place for formal debates and panels, and there is a place for exposition and articulation of views or cases. Then, one may carry out a critical review or even a discussion. Indeed that is exactly what the UD blog often provides. So, we live in a time where there are so many intersecting, interacting crises and issues and contentions that we routinely need to address worldviews level issues. Indeed, given what we have seen ever so often at UD, we too often have to start as far back as the credibility of first principles of right reason. (Onlookers, cf here on to see what that looks like at 101 level, in a Judaeo-Christian worldview context.) That is how bad things are with our mortally wounded civilisation. My only real hope for us, is that I do believe in miracles. And, on morality, we need to start from key moral facts or points of consensus, and draw out the deeper implications and contexts that make sense of that, leading onward to the worldview context. So, we start with a point that no-one will dare deny (but many will try to brush aside or ignore), e.g. that it is objectively , horrifically wrong to kidnap, rape, torture and murder a young child, to make a snuff video fro sick fun and blood money profit. This brings to bear many of the issues, current (sadly, snuff videos are credibly real through thankfully rare) and recently historical (e.g. what was happening in the Nazi death camps or the various Gulags was close enough to give pause), as well as from the deeper past (I could give you some horror stories on slavery . . . let's just say that the second motto of the antislavery movement, based on Philemon vv 1 - 3 and 15 - 17, was "Am I not a Woman and a Sister?" The horrors that patently lie behind that, we need not elaborate. Just say, I am descended from slaves liberated in material part through the work of that society and its leaders. We must never ever ever forget.) This brings us to the issue of rights, a universally recognised principle: fairness and fundamental moral worth behind it, raising issues of equality and duties of care to respect the other. Even, if marginalised, oppressed and voiceless. That such basic rights are objective is seen from the patent absurdities and hopeless morass of contradictions and hypocrisies that result from ignoring or manipulating them. That is, I argue here in a nutshell that once we listen to and cultivate the voice of conscience as the candle within and do not snuff it out, we will see that certain moral principles are fundamental and are self-evident, such that to abandon them comes at a price of absurdity, hypocrisy and destructive evil. And, onward, of crushing conscience and descending into a morass of darkness and evil as does not bear raising from the depths of our worst nightmares. But we have had several examples in living memory. Why is it that we are so often so insistent on forgetting or dismissing them? Will we not even learn from history, if from nothing else? Indeed, sadly, in the current pushes by radical agendas of various stripes but a common ruthless nihilism, we see that freedom of conscience, worship, opinion, speech, association and expression are -- yet again! -- under threat, with government backing in too many cases, all in the false name of liberation and agendas being pushed by radicals of several stripes. When for instance we see so-called new atheists standing up in public or in print and declaring that raising a child in a Christian tradition is child abuse, given the laws and bureaucracies on such abuse that is a shocking declaration not only of contempt and willfully arrogant ignorance, but it is a threat, one that is already being acted on in subtle ways. And, we do not hear a call to stop, rein in and apologise for such foolish, polarising and wicked rhetoric. Instead, such men are feted and celebrated. That speaks volumes, telling, shameful and horrific volumes. But now, let us look at a pair of key historical state papers on the subject of rights and how pivotal such are , and their worldview connexions. Notice, also the clear historical links on the flow and further articulation of key ideas:
Dutch DOI, 1581: . . . a prince is constituted by God to be ruler of a people, to defend them from oppression and violence as the shepherd his sheep; and whereas God did not create the people slaves to their prince, to obey his commands, whether right or wrong, but rather the prince for the sake of the subjects (without which he could be no prince), to govern them according to equity, to love and support them as a father his children or a shepherd his flock, and even at the hazard of life to defend and preserve them. And when he does not behave thus, but, on the contrary, oppresses them, seeking opportunities to infringe their ancient customs and privileges . . . then he is no longer a prince, but a tyrant, and the subjects are to consider him in no other view . . . This is the only method left for subjects whose humble petitions and remonstrances could never soften their prince or dissuade him from his tyrannical proceedings; and this is what the law of nature dictates for the defense of liberty, which we ought to transmit to posterity, even at the hazard of our lives. . . . . So, having no hope of reconciliation, and finding no other remedy, we have, agreeable to the law of nature in our own defense, and for maintaining the rights, privileges, and liberties of our countrymen, wives, and children, and latest posterity from being enslaved by the Spaniards, been constrained to renounce allegiance to the King of Spain, and pursue such methods as appear to us most likely to secure our ancient liberties and privileges. US DOI, 1776: When . . . it becomes necessary for one people . . . to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 - 21, 2:14 - 15], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . . . We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions [Cf. Judges 11:27 and discussion in Locke], do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
Do you notice how both these papers pivot on issues of rights, linked duties of office and general care, and the underlying premise that our nature is rooted in the law of our nature under our Creator, the good God who has given us a fundamental moral worth? Let me further underscore, from the extended citation by Locke in the passage in his second treatise on civil gov't, Ch 2 sect 5, in which he referred to "the judicious [Anglican Canon Richard] Hooker," to ground such pivotal concepts:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80]
We had better wake up and think through what is going on, before it is too late for even a miracle to save us. KF kairosfocus
If atheism is true, why argue against theism? William J Murray
If atheism is true, why does it need justification? Mung
KN
I don’t quite disagree with you, but let’s keep some distinctions clear. Scientific theories are objective but not absolute; that’s just why we can talk about scientific progress at all.
Agreed. That is why I am not writing about science. It is not relevant to the discussion.
Likewise, moral positions or views can be objective without being absolute.
How can an objective moral law possibly be relative to any person, culture, or situation? Take any specific example of a moral law that you like to make your case.
But as for what the absolute moral law is, I don’t think there’s much improvement over the categorical imperative. But we can talk about that, too.
Except for the golden rule, the categorical imperative is without content. As such, it provides no guidance either for the foundation of natural rights, the development of conscience, or the formation of virtue. For Kant, morality is subjective, which means that, for him, it does not come from God or any outside source. It is, therefore, non-binding except to the extent that we bind ourselves. As a standard for human behavior, this empty notion cannot even begin to approach the Ten Commandments, The Sermon on the Mount, or the Natural Moral Law. StephenB
To be sure, social justice is a distinct matter from personal morality. However, the objective natural moral law, insofar at it is recognized, informs both personal and institutional morality. Thou Shalt Not Steal applies to both governments that would steal from the people and to people who would steal from each other. The broader point is that subjective morality, and the tyranny that always follows from moral conflict, is inappropriate for both the state and its citizens. To reject the natural moral law is to support both immorality and tyranny. Does the natural moral law require any grounding? Of course it does. The natural moral law, like any law, requires a lawgiver. From whence comes the lawgiver? Can it be evolution? Obviously not. Evolution, which denies the reality of a fixed human nature must, by logical necessity, deny any fixed morality proper to human nature--unchanging morality cannot be grounded in changing evolution. Can a physical law create morality? No. Physical laws, by definition, cannot create or do anything different from what they have always done. The only other option is a personal, unchanging, eternal, intelligent agent. StephenB
There would be if justification and/or truth are subjective, or if knowledge does not depend on either truth or justification. But I do think that knowledge requires both truth and justification, and it does not make any sense to suppose that either of those could be subjective in the sense I’d specified above.
I just realized that this bit here means that there cannot be any subjective knowledge at all, and that can't be right. So, please ignore! Kantian Naturalist
StephenB: I don't quite disagree with you, but let's keep some distinctions clear. Scientific theories are objective but not absolute; that's just why we can talk about scientific progress at all. Likewise, moral positions or views can be objective without being absolute. But as for what the absolute moral law is, I don't think there's much improvement over the categorical imperative. But we can talk about that, too. Mung: probably not. There would be if justification and/or truth are subjective, or if knowledge does not depend on either truth or justification. But I do think that knowledge requires both truth and justification, and it does not make any sense to suppose that either of those could be subjective in the sense I'd specified above. Kantian Naturalist
(1) is there any objective knowledge at all?
Does it even make sense to say that all knowledge is subjective? Mung
"...every attempt to deny the possibility of metaphysics rests on some prior arbitrarily restrictive epistemology or theory of knowledge." - W. Norris Clarke, S.J. Mung
Kantian Naturalist:
So we shall need more than one set of distinctions: objective/subjective, local/universal, and (maybe) relative/absolute. I think that nothing but nonsense and confusion will result from conflating these distinctions. To aspire to true systematicity will also require thinking about how these distinctions interact with the a priori/a posteriori distinction.
Subjectivism, multiculturalism, and relativism are three related dimensions of the same intellectual and moral error. Can you think of even one objective moral law (not civil law or custom) that is not also universally and absolutely binding? Can you think of even one society or unique set of conditions where people advanced and prospered in a culture that encouraged impiety, pornography, murder, adultery, theft, and dishonesty? The reason I introduced the terms “absolute” and “universal” was to show that these dimensions are inseparable from the dimension of objectivity, and to indicate that the contrast between subject vs. object is analogous to the contrast between absolute vs. relative and universal vs. particular. The point being that one element in a dichotomous relationship is always defined in terms of its relationship with the other element, something that Elvis4708 has yet to grasp. The role of "plurality" is to recognize that each culture must find its own unique way of applying these objective, universal, and absolute moral laws, not, as you suggest, to characterize them as local customs. In keeping with that point, it seems odd that you would complain about the "nonsense and confusion of conflating distinctions" even as you discuss the "good life" in the context of the moral code as if the two terms were interchangeable. StephenB
Since you do not understand (or refuse to accept) the basic difference between a subject and an object, you are clearly not ready to engage in a rational an objective dialogue on the subject of objective morality. =P Mung
KN: Going now, but pardon: to imply or outright assert that we know that we cannot know is self referentially absurd. KF kairosfocus
I'm not so sure that skepticism is as absurd as you make it out to be, but I'm not defending skepticism, so we can leave that one side. On moral subjects, I'm quite happy to defend objectivity (on my generous construal) of morality up and down; however, I think that further distinctions are required. In particular, I think that the priority of the right over the good is important here: "the right" here being the the fair and equitable distribution of material and social goods necessary for each and every individual to develop his or her own capacities, including his or her capacity to conceive of the good and construct a plan of life informed by that conception. I think that some pluralism about the good is a basic feature of contemporary life in Western societies (at least), and I don't think that the good life is the same for all peoples, at all times, and in all places. What counts as the good life will depend on tradition, religion, culture, language, physical circumstances -- and while it is not subjective, it is local or non-universal. By contrast, I do think that the right is universal, or at least universalizable. So we shall need more than one set of distinctions: objective/subjective, local/universal, and (maybe) relative/absolute. I think that nothing but nonsense and confusion will result from conflating these distinctions. To aspire to true systematicity will also require thinking about how these distinctions interact with the a priori/a posteriori distinction. That said, it's not really clear to me just why it is that objective knowledge needs to be 'grounded' in a 'world-view'. If we have really good reasons to accept that morality is objective, why does it need to be 'grounded' in anything else? And as I've indicated many times before, I worry that 'grounded' in an "accordion word": the meaning of it stretches and collapses according to context and use. I can think of at least three different senses of 'grounding': causal explanation, rational justification, and phenomenological elucidation. And while we do need all of them, they are not the same thing! Kantian Naturalist
KN: The attempt to deny objective knowledge immediately implies a claim to objective knowledge and is thus self referentially absurd. The first is thus a non-question that eats itself from the tail on up. The second, over-generalises and in so doing loads the issue improperly. To claim that there is objective knowledge on moral subjects, does not entail that all moral claims constitute such knowledge. For a case in point, however, try to deny that it is objectively wrong and known or knowable to be wrong, to kidnap, rape, torture and murder a little child for sick fun and blood money profit by making a snuff film. Thirdly, the issue is not whether objective knowledge, moral or not relies on theism, but what worldview best grounds objectivity of moral knowledge. KF kairosfocus
There are at least three separate questions here: (1) is there any objective knowledge at all? (2) is morality a kind of objective knowledge? (3) does objective morality depend on theism being true and/or justified? Comment 1: I said "true and/or justified" because one might reason as follows: "the truth of objective morality depends upon the existence of God, so an atheist who believes in objective morality has a true belief, but is not justified in having it.") Comment 2: if one believes that all objective knowledge depends on theism, then there's nothing distinct about morality. Here could reason as follows: (1) all objective knowledge depends on theism; (2) morality is a kind of objective knowledge; (3) hence morality depends on God. Comment 3: the objectivity of morality is a formal commitment -- it says that this:
judgments about the good and the right are objective if and only the states of affairs to which the truth of those judgments correspond are not themselves entirely constituted by the first-person (subjective, conscious) states of those forming and assessing the relevant judgment.
(Apologies for the 'word-salad,' but I'm trying to be precise here.) By contrast, judgments are "subjective" if and only if the truth-value of those judgments consists in corresponding to, or failing to correspond to, states of affairs constituted entirely by first-person reportable psychological states. So, "I love her" is subjective in the relevant sense. (Things might get a bit trickier when contrasting "the table looks brown to me" with "the table is brown," but we can leave that to one side. I raise it only to indicate how tricky things are.) On this characterization, it will follow that sentences such as "A double espresso costs $2.50" and "it is illegal to exceed the posted speed-limit" are objective. I have no problem with that -- I think that if we're really going to draw the line between the subjective and the objective in the right place, then "social facts" (prices, laws, etc.) will have to come out as objective. I'd like to place the onus on those who deny that social facts are objective to explain why that is. So just because something is objective, doesn't really tell us where in the ultimate ontology it will fall. The objectivity of social facts is clearly quite different from the objectivity of logical principles or physical laws, and the objectivity of morality is almost certainly different from all of them. Kantian Naturalist
Putting in a nutshell: the real issue in democracy is not just that the people get their say, but that the people make it their responsibility to make sure that what they say is sound and wise, or else we end up in the march of folly. KF kairosfocus
PPS: Also cf here. kairosfocus
Elvis4708
If there is no such god your argumentation loses all of its content. Why can´t you accept that instead of vomiting a lot of arrogance
Except for you, everyone, including the most partisan theist and the most partisan atheist, understands the meaning of objective morality. Except for you, everyone, including the most partisan theist and atheist, understands the difference between a subject and an object. Except for you, everyone, including the most partisan theist and atheist, understands the difference between defining objective morality and presenting an argument for it. It has nothing at all to do with faith and everything to do with the ability to think rationally. You need more preparation. You are not ready to enter into the fray. StephenB
ouch . . . kairosfocus
PS: Definitions that may help: Collins English Dict:
OBJECTIVE: objective [?b?d??kt?v] adj 1. (Philosophy) existing independently of perception or an individual's conceptions are there objective moral values? 2. undistorted by emotion or personal bias 3. of or relating to actual and external phenomena as opposed to thoughts, feelings, etc. SUBJECTIVE: subjective [s?b?d??kt?v] adj 1. belonging to, proceeding from, or relating to the mind of the thinking subject and not the nature of the object being considered 2. of, relating to, or emanating from a person's emotions, prejudices, etc. subjective views 3. relating to the inherent nature of a person or thing; essential 4. (Philosophy) existing only as perceived and not as a thing in itself
Notice, it is subjects who know, so the bridge between the mentality of the subject and the objectivity of what is known is warrant. Warrant that creates the status of beliefs that are credibly true and well warranted. It should be patent that the vote of 51% or more generally of three wolves and two sheep on what is for lunch, is not sufficient to provide warrant that would lead to the conclusion that the result of a vote is warranted as true, rather than reflective of the agendas and desires of a given cluster of subjects at a given time on a particular topic. This in turn may well simply be the result of the sort of manipulations and distortions that led to the famous incident of sailing out from Fair Havens when that sweet south wind blew, in Acts 27. Foer here we have acase wher4e prudent counsels based on the warrant of wide and painful experience (three shipwrecks to that date) were brushed aside in light of the smooth words of an inrterested ship's ownwr and his kubernete, playing on the discomfort of the general lot of passengfers and suppressing the pivotal issue of the risks that were being run. Kindly, cf the study on this incident here. I fear, this is all too relevant to where our civilisation as a whole now is, and so also to where all too many of its governments, dominant media houses, opinion leaders, countries and communities are at this time. KF kairosfocus
E: With all due respects, you asked a question and SB answered it, namely that if we are creatures made for a purpose, then morality will not just boil down to the issue of might and/or manipulation making 'right.' Now, you object that this implication ASSUMES God? Pardon me but the first point of IF p THEN q is the logic, not the status of the antecedent in the first instance. As to the question of whether morality is objective, I again suggest with all due respect that it is objectively so, that it is wrong to kidnap, rape, torture and murder a young child to make a snuff video for sick pleasure and blood money profit. Just as, that Hitler slaughtered 6 mn Jews and 5 - 7 million others in his death camps etc was inescapably a case in point of wrong. So, we are credibly under moral governance, and that points strongly to a moral governor. The pattern of argument above tells us that you are plainly simply trying to dress up the radical relativism and amorality of your worldview in democratic clothes, and in so doing, hoping to distract from how it opens the door to outright destructive nihilism, the might/manipulation makes 'right' game that has already played out so destructively within living memory. No wonder it has been said history repeats -- we refuse to learn its lessons. Which is exactly where our civilisation -- having refused to learn from Plato, much less Paul, Yeshua d' Nazaret, or Moshe -- now is. As to the move from validity of an argument on implication that posits God in its antecedent, to credible soundness, there is abundant and good reason, some of it shown above in this thread. (Onlookers may want to start here as a 101 level sampler.) KF kairosfocus
Stephen B 593; 1. I have used the copy/paste-function as you easily can verify. 2. Our clash boils down to the fact that I do not believe in your god. Because if I did I would wholeheartedly support what you are saying. Your argumentation is short, strict and easy to grasp(!) - in short elegant - but it presupposes a universal, monotheistic god. If there is no such god your argumentation loses all of its content. Why can´t you accept that instead of vomiting a lot of arrogance? Elvis4708
PPS: Feser's discussion, here. kairosfocus
PS: Some back-forth points on objections, here. kairosfocus
WJM: We need to think through some big issues here. Accordingly, I think we need to look at several related forms of argument, here adapted from Hartshorne:
(1) If God exists, he must exist necessarily, if God does not exist his existence is impossible. ____________________ Therefore, (2) God is either necessary or impossible. (3) God can be conceived without contradiction _______________________ Therefore, (4) God -- a serious candidate necessary being -- is not impossible (5) Since God is not impossible he must be necessary. ______________________ So: (6)Since God is necessary (and not impossible) he must exist. (7) The assumption that God cannot be contingent is implicit in the concept of God itself. _____________________________ Therefore: (8) God cannot exist contingently.
This is a different angle on the same basic point. And, remember, the issue is not in whether one accepts this, but what is the price tag -- metaphysical, epistemological, logical, moral/ethical -- in rejecting it. Especially in light of what else it costs to reject the related reasoning. Then, let us look at the balance of difficulties and come to a conclusion as to which is better to live with, why. KF kairosfocus
Elvis4708
Thus, you DEFINE moral codes that come from outside human beings as objective, universal and absolute.
No, I DEFINED moral codes that come from outside the human mind as objective. I was very careful to make that point at least five times. That they are also universal and absolute can be easily deduced. However, I am certainly not going to go to the trouble of explaining arguments to someone who cannot even grasp definitions. Since you do not understand (or refuse to accept) the basic difference between a subject and an object, you are clearly not ready to engage in a rational dialogue on the subject of objective morality. StephenB
Another pair of brilliant essays, KF. 589 contains that which I was attempting to lead Elvis to via a line of questioning, but he - like so many others - refuse to engage such lines of questioning, either out of duplicity or a simple inability to see into their blind spot. I have noticed that many atheists & materialists have an apparent,recurring cognitive difficulty when it comes to understanding the role of fundamental principles, often implicitly (and in some cases, explicitly) contradicting the very principles they are necessarily employing to make their case. I ask Elvis,"why democratic morality", and he is incapable of providing an answer, other than offering rhetoric that democracy is best. But best by what measure, and why should anyone submit to such measure, or feel confident in forcing it upon those who wish otherwise? And so the serpent consumes its own tail; without an assumed objectively valid source for their insistence upon "democratic morality", they have no justification other than might - the might of the many to impose their moral will on the few. Fundamentally, the principle that Elvis ultimately advances - the might of the many - is no different in nature than that which he (in his mind) fights against: the might of the church, or the might of the few. Elvis, like so many others, seem oblivious to the role that principle plays in any moral argument. As in, what is the principle by which you feel confident in your moral judgements? Why that principle, and not some other? If there is no answer that assumes any grounding other than, ultimately, "because I say so", or "because we have the might", then the morality one argues for is no different in principle than the morality one is arguing against. Ironically (and tragically, really), that which they so emotionally object to (which is, rationally, an erroneous interpretation of divine morality) - the "might" of the one (god) to force moral judgements on humans and punish them eternally for what they see as trivial offensives - is the very principle behind what they offer to replace it - nothing but "might", and "because I say so". Unfortunately, in their righteous outrage, they refuse to examine the nature of the moral argument because they are so emotionally tied to their erroneous concept of divine morality, as if some capricious king on a throne was hurling lightning bolts of eternal condemnation upon hapless, unwitting, good-natured people who simply fail to flip some arbitrary switch. Like Elvis, many anti-theists attempt to replace divine morality, as they see it, with something they consider more kind, more tolerant, more pragmatic, or more "evolved", but cannot offer anything more substantial than "might makes right" or "because I say so" as their fundamental principle. IMO, the moral argument, and the necessary being argument, each by themselves are compelling arguments for belief in the existence of god; taken together with all of the other arguments and evidence, the case for theism is, in every sense, overwhelming. William J Murray
PS: Godel's form of argument is also suggestive (and remember I am taking a comparative difficulties, metaphysical price tag approach to all of this). Let me clip wiki for the skeletal form:
Mathematician Kurt Gödel provided a formal argument for God's existence. The arguments were constructed by Gödel but not published until long after his death. He provided a logically valid argument based on modal logic; he uses the conception of properties, ultimately concluding with God's existence.[27]
Definition 1: x is God-like if and only if x has as essential properties those and only those properties which are positive Definition 2: A is an essence of x if and only if for every property B, x has B necessarily if and only if A entails B Definition 3: x necessarily exists if and only if every essence of x is necessarily exemplified
Axiom 1: If a property is positive, then its negation is not positive Axiom 2: Any property entailed by—i.e., strictly implied by—a positive property is [--> also] positive Axiom 3: The property of being God-like is positive Axiom 4: If a property is positive, then it is necessarily positive Axiom 5: Necessary existence is positive Axiom 6: For any property P, if P is positive, then being necessarily P is positive
Theorem 1: If a property is positive, then it is consistent, i.e., possibly exemplified Corollary 1: The property of being God-like is consistent Theorem 2: If something is God-like, then the property of being God-like is an essence of that thing ____________________ Theorem 3: Necessarily, the property of being God-like is exemplified
Gödel defined being "god-like" as having every positive property. He left the term "positive" undefined. Gödel proposed that it is understood in an aesthetic and moral sense, or alternatively as the opposite of privation (the absence of necessary qualities in the universe). He warned against interpreting "positive" as being morally or aesthetically "good" (the greatest advantage and least disadvantage), as this includes negative characteristics. Instead, he suggested that "positive" should be interpreted as being perfect, or "purely good", without negative characteristics.[28]
Again, we see the sort of price tag game out there. So, folks, what is the metaphysical, epistemological, logical and moral price tag of atheism, especially the evolutionary materialist, scientism form that is so rampant and brashly assertive today? Yes, you can object to and even dismiss, but what are you implicitly committing yours3elf to in so doing? Or, are you just playing at being selectively hyperskeptical against what you would not like or where you would not go? (And, underlying influences in my own thinking on these subjects should be evident.) KF kairosfocus
F/N: Over the past day or two, this thread has looped back around to the issue of arguments towards God and particularly the ontological ones. In picking back up, I would like to note that a key background idea is the explanation of being. Arguably, there is a first principle of right reason that we all accept in practice: if something exists, we may properly ask and seek to answer as to why. If it begins or ends or may do so, it is plainly dependent on external factors, i.e it is caused. In particular, there will be at least one factor that is such that it is causally enabling or disabling according as it is on or off. I have spoken of the fire tetrahedron as an example, where heat, fuel, oxidiser and chain reaction are all required for a fire to begin, be sustained or not end. Block or remove any one and the fire is gone or could not begin. This then points to something more exotic, necessary beings. Things that have no such necessary enabling factors. That is, things that would exist in all possible worlds, including the actual ones. The truth in 3 + 2 = 5 is a case in point. It never began, cannot cease, and is not caused, indeed it causally constrains. Also, considering candidate necessary beings, such a candidate if serious will be of one of two states: either it is such that it will exist in all possible worlds, or else it will be impossible in all possible worlds and so will not exist at all. Indeed, if something is such a candidate and would exist in any particular possible world that things would not be impossible and so would be in all possible worlds, so long as it meets the criterion of independence of enabling on/off factors. Where, also, God is going to be a necessary being, if he is there at all. As a second preliminary, I tend to put up a skeletal cosmological argument, not as an argument to a full orbed existence of God, but to the existence of a being with this character of necessity of being, as causal ground of a contingent observed universe. In short, as already appeared above:
Cosmological: (NB: This appears out of the classical order, as IMHO it makes A far more clear if this is done, by distinguishing and rationalising "contingent" and "necessary" beings. This is an example of a cumulative argument.): 1. Some contingent beings exist. (E.g.: us, a tree or a fruit, an artifact, the planets and stars, etc. -- anything that might not have existed, i.e. is caused.) 2. Contingent beings do not exist by themselves – that is in part what “contingent” means - so they require a necessary being as their ultimate cause. 3. If any contingent being exists, then a necessary being exists. ___________________________________ 4. Thus, there exists a necessary being, the ultimate cause of the existence of the many contingent beings in the cosmos.
The point is that, self evidently, we undeniably live in a shared common world. That world is full of contingent beings, and it is itself credibly contingent per the Big Bang etc. So, it is in turn dependent on something else and at the root, a being that is causally sufficient for the world but is not itself dependent on further beings. Nor will an attempt to appeal to an infinite chain of contingent causes work, as it is impossible to traverse a countable infinity step by step to reach the present. What that means is that going infinity, infinity less 1, infinity less 2 to go down to zero just does not work. For many excellent reasons that should have long since been evident to those who often offer such arguments rhetorically, cf Hilbert's Hotel Infinity. (Indeed, we normally present such infinities as wholes, or as examples and hints to keep on going: N = {0, 1, 2, 3, 4 . . .} etc. Where we can show the set transfinite by showing that the set of evens and that of odds can both be put in one to one correspondence with the whole set N.) So, let us set that predictable objection aside. Now, too, we could go on looking at the evident design of cosmos, life in it and all the way up to our own intelligence as signs pointing to the intelligence and purposeful intent of the underlying necessary being. Similarly, we can look at the cosmos and see that such a being is of enormous skill, knowledge and power. Our being under evident moral government points to the moral nature of such a being. All of these can be raised and raised in the context where the cumulative metaphysical price tag of the positions one has to take to reject them, becomes quite stiff indeed. In short, I am here pointing to comparative difficulties of worldview foundational faith points. And yes, I freely accept that we all live by faith, the issue is to find a reasonable faith that is factually adequate, coherent and explanatorily elegant and powerful: not ad hoc, simple, but not simplistic. Such a view is entirely consistent with the idea of objective truth and right, and it is entirely consistent with the point that we can adequately know the grounds of reality. But we have been working towards a form of modal ontological argument. Let me clip from a phil of rel page:
(1) If God exists then he has necessary existence. (2) Either God has necessary existence, or he doesn‘t. (3) If God doesn‘t have necessary existence, then he necessarily doesn‘t. ____________________________ Therefore: (4) Either God has necessary existence, or he necessarily doesn‘t. (5) If God necessarily doesn‘t have necessary existence, then God necessarily doesn‘t exist. ________________ Therefore: (6) Either God has necessary existence, or he necessarily doesn‘t exist. (7) It is not the case that God necessarily doesn‘t exist. Therefore: (8) God has necessary existence. (9) If God has necessary existence, then God exists. ___________________________ Therefore: (10) God exists.
The focal issue of interest here is the concept that inherently, what God is about is in part that he is a necessary being, the ground of the existence of a contingent world. And in that context (and given the earlier discussion in this post), as a serious candidate necessary being, either God's existence is possible or impossible. SO, IF YOU REJECT THE EXISTENCE OF GOD, YOU ARE IMPLICITLY -- OR EVEN EXPLICITLY -- COMMITTED TO THE IMPOSSIBILITY OF A BEING LIKE GOD. (Cf here.) Formerly, back in my young college days, atheists were quite happy to say that, trotting out the problem of evil in deductive form, as the proof positive of the point. But, along came Plantinga and the Free Will defence back in the 70's and 80's [it took time to filter down to college student discussion level], and poof, the confident dismissal collapsed. So, there is a serious issue now, and the metaphysical and epistemological commitments price tag for such atheism just went up rather steeply. KF kairosfocus
E: BZZT, error alert. Sorry, if we have a definite nature and purpose (which would be the result of being created by a Creator for a purpose and would provide grounds for binding expectations that others not interfere with fulfilling our purposes under our Creator), then that means there is such a thing as the law of our nature which would have an objective character. Including, morality. That is, morality would not be simply a social construct or a matter of preferences and the out-turn of the rhetoric, propaganda and power games, but would have a baseline referent. An intelligible natural law in short, that stands above and judges the laws of communities at given times. Such as happened to end slavery, which had been embedded in human laws. Perhaps, you need to ask yourself why it is that the US founders started their argument in the 1776 DOI, from the concept that it is self-evident that all men are created equal and are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, starting with that to life and liberty. (When one denies an actual self evident truth, one finds oneself in a morass of patent absurdities.) That is why I keep pointing to a key, fairly concrete example:
it is objectively wrong to kidnap, rape, torture and kill a child for purposes of sick fun and blood money profit by making a snuff video.
Kindly show me why this is not so, and if you deny this, then show me how you do not end up in the sort of nihilistic morass that has been warned against ever since The Laws, Bk X by Plato. Let me clip [go there for onward links], as it is important to see what we were warned against on the example of what happened to Athens 2400 years ago:
Athenian Stranger: . . . [[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [[i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies which come next in order-earth, and sun, and moon, and stars-they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences. The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only. [[In short, evolutionary materialism premised on chance plus necessity acting without intelligent guidance on primordial matter is hardly a new or a primarily "scientific" view! Notice also, the trichotomy of causal factors: (a) chance/accident, (b) mechanical necessity of nature, (c) art or intelligent design and direction.] . . . . [[Thus, they hold that t]he Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.- [[Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT. (Cf. here for Locke's views and sources on a very different base for grounding liberty as opposed to license and resulting anarchistic "every man does what is right in his own eyes" chaos leading to tyranny. )] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [[ Evolutionary materialism leads to the promotion of amorality], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [[Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles; cf. dramatisation here], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [[such amoral factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless tyranny], and not in legal subjection to them.
Do you see what is at stake here? And, what evolutionary materialism and its fellow travellers open the door to? With some pretty grim living memory cases in point? Not to mention not only the cries of the 55 million ghosts of the aborted int eh USA since 1973 {and many, many more from around the world], as well as the sort of bully-boy tactics that are now being openly contemplated against people of Christian conscience and convictions all across our civilisation just now? KF kairosfocus
StephenB 586; My suspicions are confirmed. The problem with your definition of "objectivity" is found in this citation; "If the moral code comes from God, then it comes from outside human beings and is, therefore, defined as objective morality, which means that it is also universal and absolute." Thus, you DEFINE moral codes that come from outside human beings as objective, universal and absolute. But what are your justifications for doing that? Your definition is obviously not applicable to polytheistic, monolatric or to discriminating monotheistic religions like pre-rabbi/nationalistic judaism and arabic islam. It has no meaning at all to atheists and sceptics. In fact, only believers in the one and only universal god, i.e. christians, are able to fully understand - and accept - your definition! You do not seem to be aware of the limitations of your own terminology. Don´t you communicate with people outside your congregation? Elvis4708
His critique of the ontological argument is, I think, pretty interesting: existence is not a property, “exists” is not a predicate.
How long ago was it that God said to Moses, "I AM." Mung
“Divine morality, is, by definition, objective with respect to humans.” Elvis4708
Could you please tell me the exact axioms and conditions you use to reach this conclusion?
With respect to morality, subjective means in the subject. It comes from our human minds. Objective means outside of the subject. It does not come from human minds. It comes from the outside of human minds. A moral proposition can come either from human beings (subjective) or it can come from outside of human beings (objective). If the moral code comes from the subject, the human, it will be different for every person and every situation. It will not be universal or absolute. If the moral code comes from God, then it comes from outside human beings and is, therefore, defined as objective morality, which means that it is also universal and absolute. If the moral code comes from God, it will be the same for everyone. It will be universal (binding on every person) and absolute (binding in every situation). HOWEVER: We are speaking so far of the CODE itself. The APPLICATION of that code will be DIFFERENT for each individual and each situation, but the code itself will be objective, universal, and absolute. None of this is to argue for the EXISTENCE of objective morality. The point is to focus on the meaning and implications of the word "objective" as it pertains to morality. StephenB
E: Perhaps you can start with this from SB at 566:
The question of objectivity vs subjectivity is defined by this question: Where is the morality coming from? If humans could create their own morality, then it would subjective; If morality is inherent in human nature as part of a Divine creation (the natural moral law), then it is objective.
KF PS: We need to understand too that objectivity and proof (especially deductions from premises uncontroversial to all rational minds) are different. The latter no longer holds for even Math, post Godel, once we have sufficiently rich axiomatic systems in hand. If we see objectivity in the context of warrant as having good grounds for a given belief, even if there is an abstract possibility of error, i.e. evidence that on balance confers moral certainty or even just sufficient that a reasonable person will accept in a context where valuable things are in the stakes, then there is excellent grounds to see that we have good (and even compelling) warrant for the reality of God, as has been discussed earlier in this very thread. Warrant comparable to things we do not ordinarily doubt such as that others have minds of their own and make responsible choices using same. For some, like this poster, we have met God in miracle working, life transforming power and would be no more inclined to doubt the reality of God than that of the love of mother or the reality of relationship with same. In my particular case, absent miraculous guidance, I would be dead these forty years now. There are millions of people across thousands of years with a similar experience and report. Sufficiently so that to deny and dismiss such would at once bring the general credibility of the human mind as an instrument of accurate perception, good reasoning and credible knowing into serious doubt indeed. kairosfocus
StephenB 583; I´m pondering on the following statement of yours; "Divine morality, is, by definition, objective with respect to humans." Could you please tell me the exact axioms and conditions you use to reach this conclusion? Elvis4708
Elvis4708
Kant pointed out to us that we can never verify the existence of the divine objectively.
Kant was wrong, but that is not the issue at the moment. We are not discussing the verification of objectivity. We are discussing the meaning of objectivity, which you do not yet grasp.
How can you then talk about divine morality as objective? That´s rubbish!
Divine morality, is, by definition, objective with respect to humans. If you like, you can assert that there is no such thing as a Divinely instituted objective moral law, a point that I could easily refute, but you cannot rationally argue that it isn't objective if it exists.
If an agent´s existence is not objectively verified, so are not her injunctions. Divine morality is absolute, non-negotiable, but that´s another thing.
You continue to confuse the verification of objective morality with the definition of objective morality. The definitions of the words "subjective" and "objective" can be found in my earlier post.
The concept of “objectivity” emanates from the empirical science, a science that has been repudiated by theists in, inter alia, the existence debate.
The concept of objectivity does not emanate from science. It is a philosophical formulation with a long history. I can't imagine how you cultivated the notion that theists have "repudiated" empirical science.
Why do you persist in fallaciously using one of its most central concept? Religious rhetoric? Nice connotations in the “rational belief” debate?
I am simply trying to help you understand the meanings of the words you are using. We cannot have a rational discussion about whether or not an objective Divine morality exists if you don't even know what the term "objective morality" means. Laboring under such a disadvantage, you are no position to analyze the difference between the "objective" natural moral law and the "subjective" morality that humans try to invent for themselves. StephenB
KN 581; Isn´t the superking´s ban on Kant´s writing a good example of a necessary social adaptation? And think about all yes-sayers and whistle-blowers, keen to catch the benevolence of Frederick, surrounding Kant. Elvis4708
I didn't mean to imply that I thought Kant really was an atheist, or should have been, or chose to conform to societal expectations, or lacked the courage of his convictions, etc. On the contrary: I think that Kant really did believe that the fully active/creative, infinite divine mind transcends our semi-creative, finite mind. The ontological gulf is so radical that we cannot know that He exists, in the sense of 'know' that "I know that 2+3=5" or "I know that Alpha Centauri is the closest star to our solar system" or "I know that I'm seated at my desk". I have no reason not to take Kant at his word when we says that he wanted to restrict knowledge to make room for faith, or when he says that he wants to arrive at a religion within the bounds of reason alone. There's plenty of evidence that Kant's philosophy of religion was not the route of social conformity at the time. I say that because Frederick II prohibited Kant from writing on religion in 1794, a prohibition that Kant honored until Frederick II died in 1797. For more, see Kant's Philosophy of Religion (SEP) Kantian Naturalist
Kantian Naturalist 579; Elegant and short summary! Kant had his own terminology and he didn´t use the very word "objectivity"(as far as I remember). But that´s what he meant. Kant was quite a famous guy in Königsberg, having been brought up in a strict religious home. To proclamate adherence to atheism - in case he wanted to - was therefore hardly on the agenda. Such an act would have caused a lot of social and familiar troubles. So he chosed the "practical"(socially acceptable) way as did many other prominent thinkers in those days(e.g. Pascal and his wager). Elvis4708
In re: Kant, he argued that the existence of God can be neither proven nor disproven. The existence of God cannot be proven because the argument from design ("physico-theological argument) and cosmological argument presuppose the ontological argument, and the ontological argument does not work. His critique of the ontological argument is, I think, pretty interesting: existence is not a property, "exists" is not a predicate. There is no conceptual difference between an imaginary $100 bill and a real one in my hands: they are both specified by the concept of a $100 bill. Only one exists, and the other doesn't. The conclusion is that mere conceptual specifications alone won't tell us anything about what exists -- in order to determine what exists, one needs a non-conceptual component to experience, what Kant calls "intuition." But, since all of our intuitions are "sensible intuitions" (i.e. sensed spatio-temporal particulars), and God is (ex hypothesi) outside of space and time, we cannot determine if God exists -- nor can we determine if He does not. However -- and this is also quite interesting for the present discussion -- Kant also argued that it was necessary to believe in God in order to be moral. In effect, practical reason gets to 'cast a vote' when theoretical reason is neutral. Kantian Naturalist
E: In no way does the concept of objectivity emanate form the sciences, it is an epistemological-logical concept and is thus a matter of philosophy. Next, you betray a prejudice against theism WRT science that points to a problem of adherence to the ideology of scientism and its dismissive talking points, rather than any reasonable response. I think the likes of a Newton or a Kelvin or a Townsend would have something to say to you. KF kairosfocus
E; Kant showed no such thing, nor could he have. I think you have a problem understanding what objective means. KF kairosfocus
Elv, Since you don't think objective morality actually exists perhaps you would care to inform Darwinists to stop using Theodicy as the main staple in their arguments for evolution and against Theism? The role of theology in current evolutionary reasoning - Paul A. Nelson - Biology and Philosophy, 1996, Volume 11, Number 4, Pages 493-517 Excerpt: Evolutionists have long contended that the organic world falls short of what one might expect from an omnipotent and benevolent creator. Yet many of the same scientists who argue theologically for evolution are committed to the philosophical doctrine of methodological naturalism, which maintains that theology has no place in science. Furthermore, the arguments themselves are problematical, employing concepts that cannot perform the work required of them, or resting on unsupported conjectures about suboptimality. Evolutionary theorists should reconsider both the arguments and the influence of Darwinian theological metaphysics on their understanding of evolution. http://www.springerlink.com/content/n3n5415037038134/?MUD=MP The Descent of Darwin - Pastor Joe Boot - (The Theodicy of Darwinism) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKJqk7xF4-g “The strength of materialism is that it obviates the problem of evil altogether. God need not be reconciled with evil, because neither exists. Therefore the problem of evil is no problem at all.,,, And of course since there is no evil, the materialist must, ironically, not use evil to justify atheism. The problem of evil presupposes the existence of an objective evil-the very thing the materialist seems to deny. The argument (from Theodicy) that led to materialism is exhausted just when it is needed most. In other words, the problem of evil is only generated by the prior claims that evil exists. One cannot then conclude, with Dawkins, that there is ‘no evil and no good’ in the universe.,,, The fact that evolution’s acceptance hinges on a theological position would, for many, be enough to expel it from science. But evolution’s reliance on metaphysics is not its worst failing. Evolution’s real problem is not its metaphysics but its denial of its metaphysics.,,, Cornelius Hunter – Darwin’s God – pg. 154 & 159 It is interesting to point out that the ‘inconsistent identity of cause', that has been pointed out by Alvin Plantinga, which leads to the failure of neo-Darwinists to be able to make any absolute truth claims for their naturalistic beliefs, is what also leads to the failure of neo-Darwinists to be able to account for any standards of objective morality, in that neo-Darwinists cannot maintain a consistent identity towards a stable, unchanging, cause for objective morality within their lives; The Knock-Down Argument Against Atheist Sam Harris' moral landscape argument – William Lane Craig – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xL_vAH2NIPc Further notes: Richard Dawkins and the Moral Argument for God by William Lane Craig - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4f3I2QGpucs Stephen Meyer - Morality Presupposes Theism (1 of 4) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSpdh1b0X_M Objective Morality – The Objections – Frank Turek – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5MWBsPf5pg Objective Morality (1 of 5) - William Lane Craig - video playlist http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sPn_cIh_Cg&feature=bf_prev&list=PL3DBE77BB622A22F7 bornagain77
StephenB 566; Kant pointed out to us that we can never verify the existence of the divine objectively. How can you then talk about divine morality as objective? That´s rubbish! If an agent´s existence is not objectively verified, so are not her injunctions. Divine morality is absolute, non-negotiable, but that´s another thing. The concept of "objectivity" emanates from the empirical science, a science that has been repudiated by theists in, inter alia, the existence debate. Why do you persist in fallaciously using one of its most central concept? Religious rhetoric? Nice connotations in the "rational belief" debate? Elvis4708
I appreciate the point, Mung, but I take that as actually bolstering my general line of thought there -- I don't think we really have any choice in whether or not we will feel empathy for other people, animals, whatever. Of course we can deliberate on whether or not to act on those feelings, but I don't think we can chose to have them or not have them. A child who is loved by his or her parents, and well-raised, and brought up in a moderately well-functioning society will naturally feel empathy for at least some people. Human beings, being unfortunately rather tribal creatures, will tend to have natural empathy for those we feel are 'like us' and direct aggression towards those who are 'not like us'. But I think that a cultivation of imagination and the capacity to universalize that comes with practical reason can go a long way towards mitigating our tribalism. Kantian Naturalist
KN, Does a sociopath have any choice in the matter or can one choose to be a sociopath? If not, then the following is not the case: So the question, “why should I be concerned with others?” turns into the question, “why shouldn’t I be a sociopath?” Mung
Mung posted this:
[A]s is becoming increasingly clear – it is not so easy to justify any moral values purely rationally, by reason alone, as Sigmund Freud would have liked to do; to prove by reason alone why under any circumstances freedom is supposed to be better than oppression, justice better than self-interest, non-violence better than violence, love better than hate, peace better than war. Or, to put it more forcefully: why, if it is to our advantage and our personal happiness, should we not just as well lie, steal, commit adultery and murder; indeed, why should we be humane or even ‘fair’? – Why I am Still a Christian, Hans Kung.
(1) I'm troubled by Kung's subtle equivocation between rationality and egoism. The suggestion here seems to be that we are "naturally" self-interested or egoistic, and that we would need some "reason" to be altruistic, only there doesn't seem to be any such reason -- so, whatever it is that draws us out of our rational interest and into direct concern with others, it cannot be reason alone. (2) It does seem to me that the 'foundation' of morality is not reason -- at least not reason in a narrow sense -- but rather empathy, fellow-feeling, the other as a second self. Practical reason guides and informs our empathy, and if I were really pressed for a "definition" of morality, I'd give that one: morality is empathy informed by reason. (3) If the question were raised, "but why should we be empathetic at all?", I find myself perplexed by the question -- for this question seems to come from a place of skepticism, or maybe cynicism, about human nature that I find unintelligible. A lack of empathy is what characterizes sociopaths. So the question, "why should I be concerned with others?" turns into the question, "why shouldn't I be a sociopath?" But it just seems completely wrong-headed to me to think that a decent human being would have been a sociopath if he or she hadn't been persuaded not to be by some sort of argument. Sociopaths are broken in ways that we're still trying to understand, and perhaps to some degree they are the results of dysfunctional families or even societies, but it seems like bad philosophy to begin with the abnormal case as if it were the default setting and proceed from there. Sociopaths are rational egoists; normal human beings are not, whether religious or not. Kantian Naturalist
In no particular order, rhyme, or reason: (1) Ok, so we can do set-theory, and set-theory is universally and necessarily true (i.e. a priori). That's deeply interesting, but I don't see how it tells us anything about the fundamental nature of reality. The pragmatist logician can still say to the Platonist, "sure, set-theory is wicked awesome, but all that tells us at the end of the day is that we can construct really interesting systems that satisfy certain criteria that we find desirable, like consistency and non-contradiction". (2) In response to the following:
Where in the pre-biotic world, for example, do we find any evidence for consciousness, self-reflection, compassion, or ratiocination? These capacities simply are not there for the organism to draw on. Either they come from out of nowhere, uncaused by the structures of the world, or they must be created in such a way that they correspond to the structures of the world.
I think this is just a false dichotomy. There's plenty of evidence, both anecdotal and rigorous, that non-human animals have capacities for compassion and some kind of self-awareness (depending on how seriously you take the mirror test). And it certainly seems as though many higher mammals make inferences -- though what it seems they cannot do is regard themselves as making inferences. (I suspect that that is the real difference that language makes.) Are non-human animals not part of nature? There's a really interesting problem I keep hammering away on, but no one here seems to notice. If we have a conception of nature that is basically Epicurean -- chance and necessity, atoms and the void -- then yes, of course, obviously one cannot account for consciousness or normativity. But I've been reading philosophy of biology and history of philosophy of biology for a while now, and I see absolutely no reason why evolutionary theory must be, or ought to be, committed to an Epicurean metaphysics. (Of course there are Epicurean Darwinists, like Monod and Dawkins, but I'm not interested in talking to their epigones.) (3) In response to the following:
I take no joy in pointing out that the second clause in that sentence contradicts the first clause. If, on the one hand, we “produce” the intelligibility of nature by choosing to dominate it, then we preceded the origins of nature’s intelligibility. If, on the other hand, nature’s intelligibility was already there to be dominated, then the origins of nature’s intelligibility preceded us. I recommend that you negate the first proposition and affirm the second proposition.
What, not even a little joy? :) You're right that the position as stated above contradicts itself, though my (561) was vague enough to avoid outright contradiction. What I really would need to say here is that nature in itself has "pre-intelligibility". Consider the question, "what must the world be like in order for us to have any knowledge of it at all?" At this point, then, I endorse a pragmatist epistemology according to which all knowledge -- indeed, all conceptual activity of any kind -- is active, creative, and social -- not merely passive receiving how things are. (This is ultimately because of what concepts are, for pragmatists: concepts are ways of classifying what is given in experience, and to classify is to do something, so all conceptual thinking is a kind of doing, and so all knowing is a kind of doing, if -- as I think -- there is no such thing as non-conceptual knowledge.) But we can still pose the question, "what must the world be like in order for us to make sense of it?" And I think the answer to that is, "it must have at least a minimally detectable degree of order and regularity amongst its basic constituents such that the dynamics of the world can synchronically interact with and diachronically give rise to our cognitive practices." For a while now I've been trying to find the right language to express what I call "weak metaphysical realism". I actually think I might have found it, in Merleau-Ponty's interpretation of the distinction between the logos endiathetos and the logos prophorikos. So, back to reading on this lovely Sunday afternoon! Kantian Naturalist
[A]s is becoming increasingly clear - it is not so easy to justify any moral values purely rationally, by reason alone, as Sigmund Freud would have liked to do; to prove by reason alone why under any circumstances freedom is supposed to be better than oppression, justice better than self-interest, non-violence better than violence, love better than hate, peace better than war. Or, to put it more forcefully: why, if it is to our advantage and our personal happiness, should we not just as well lie, steal, commit adultery and murder; indeed, why should we be humane or even 'fair'? - Why I am Still a Christian , Hans Kung.
Mung
Kantian Naturalist:
I think that the rational, and especially mathematical, intelligibility of nature has two different aspects, a natural aspect and a cultural aspect. Here I think that Dewey (on the natural side) and Adorno (on the cultural side) express the relevant insights.
OK. Let’s examine both areas: Dewey
The world is subject-matter for knowledge, because mind has developed in that world; a body-mind, whose structures have developed according to the structures of the world in which it exists, will naturally find some of its structures to be concordant and congenial with nature, and some phases of nature with itself. …
Notice the heavy-handed assumption that drives this statement, namely that mind can arise from matter. That is precisely the point that needs to be argued for. If we grant that expansive premise, then it is only a baby step to the equally unjustified claim that mind can align itself to material conditions. There is much bad logic here. In fact, none of the mind’s “structures” (he should have used the word “capacities”) can be explained by the “structures of the world.” Where in the pre-biotic world, for example, do we find any evidence for consciousness, self-reflection, compassion, or ratiocination? These capacities simply are not there for the organism to draw on. Either they come from out of nowhere, uncaused by the structures of the world, or they must be created in such a way that they correspond to the structures of the world. Kantian Naturalist
To Dewey’s naturalism I would also add the insight of C. I. Lewis: nature appears to us as quantifiable because we choose to quantify it.
[a] If our personal choices were responsible for the relationship between the quantifiable world and our ability to quantify the world, there would be no assurance that the two are in correspondence. Our experience proves that they are correspondence. [b] Our choices have nothing to do with the fact that a falling object descends at a rate of sixteen times the time squared. If it were otherwise, we could choose another rate or even choose to dispense with gravity altogether.
So the “intelligibility of nature” is, on the one, something that we produce or construct through the historical, political, and economic practices of dominating nature — and yet, at the same time, there must be something really there to be dominated, something which has the right kind of dynamics to interact with our own.
I take no joy in pointing out that the second clause in that sentence contradicts the first clause. If, on the one hand, we “produce” the intelligibility of nature by choosing to dominate it, then we preceded the origins of nature’s intelligibility. If, on the other hand, nature’s intelligibility was already there to be dominated, then the origins of nature’s intelligibility preceded us. I recommend that you negate the first proposition and affirm the second propositi StephenB
KN: Nope, Dewey is simply repackaging the problem tossing on a dollop of naturalistic faith and handing it back as the solution. And as for Math, I like to start with actual math: {}. Define = 0. Go on to {0} = 1, then {0,, 1} = 2, and so forth. Thus, we see a 1-set, a 2-set etc and any other set will have one-ness or two-ness etc on being capable of one to one correspondence. Put in some operations, and away we go. a priori properties that are necessarily true in any coherent cosmos. As one result, the truth 2 + 3 = 5 will hold as necessarily and self-evidently so. Much follows from making sense of a world that is like that. KF kairosfocus
E: Pardon but you seem to be struggling with the meaning of objectivity. If something is objective, it goes beyond what you or I perceive or believe. For example, I would suggest as an example, that it is objectively wrong to kidnap, rape and torture to death a little child for personal pleasure and profit through making a snuff video. In saying this, I am saying the exact opposite to, it is just my perception that, and you are free to differ as you please. KF kairosfocus
Elvis4708
Divine morality is NOT objective as it is a matter for believers only! No universal religion is universal in practice and we cannot have truly universal words defined on a narrow base, particularly not a word like objectivity.
The lack of universal agreement among religions has nothing to do with the objective nature of morality. If Divine morality exists, then those religions that teach it are, in that context, objectively true, and those which do not teach it are objectively false. The question of objectivity vs subjectivity is defined by this question: Where is the morality coming from? If humans could create their own morality, then it would subjective; If morality is inherent in human nature as part of a Divine creation (the natural moral law), then it is objective. StephenB
(1) Dewey wasn't trying to establish naturalism (at least not in that quote); he was showing that the intelligibility of nature makes sense, given naturalism. Which is, I take it, the challenge you were raising: that the intelligibility of nature doesn't make sense in light of naturalism, but does make sense in light of theism. Dewey responds to that challenge. (2) Adorno is arguing against Carnap's appeal to "the stroke of good luck." (3) Obviously I don't dispute that mathematics is a priori and non-empirical, but that's a fact about the epistemology of mathematics that still leaves wide open the metaphysics of mathematics. More precisely: from the claim that the objective validity of an assertion does not depend on sense-experience, it simply does not follow that the state of affairs referred to by that assertion existed prior to all physical reality. Kantian Naturalist
KN: I'd suggest both cites are off, pardon. There is no naturalistic basis for Dewey, he is handing back the problem as the solution. As for stroke of luck, we have no right to get that lucky, or to assume we are. The testimony of Math is, there are realities built into the order of the world that are prior to matter. For instance, numbers can be built up from abstract procedures on the empty set, as you will recall me outlining. Assign number symbols, relationships and operations and away we go. Necessary truths, self evident and antecedent to matter. Matter, indeed, is forced to conform to it, e.g. three pennies joined to two more will necessarily yield the cardinality of the five-set. Iron logical properties. We can go on and on noticing the pattern that indeed if A and B have the right connexions and A is nailed down, B will follow with the force of necessity. And where we end up in the astonishing place where entirely diverse provinces of math come together in one astounding expression 0 = 1 + e^i*pi. That betrays an underlying unity that is shocking in its impact. Coherent unity amidst diversity to the point of known irreducible complexity of the Godel kind. On that sheer raw hard logical, abstract unity alone I would be forced to look for Reason himself behind the cosmos. KF kairosfocus
StephenB 553; Divine morality is NOT objective as it is a matter for believers only! No universal religion is universal in practice and we cannot have truly universal words defined on a narrow base, particularly not a word like objectivity. Elvis4708
Are you sure it’s not Reason herself?
Yes. Else the world would consist of kittens and ducklings. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6MYf6ZXY40 Mung
As for the mathematical intelligibility of nature, I've thought about this problem quite a lot, though I don't have a solution that completely satisfies me. (Though as my research progresses I believe I'm getting closer.) I think that the rational, and especially mathematical, intelligibility of nature has two different aspects, a natural aspect and a cultural aspect. Here I think that Dewey (on the natural side) and Adorno (on the cultural side) express the relevant insights. Dewey:
Only because an arbitrary breach has previously been introduced by which the world is first conceived as something quite different from what it demonstrably is, does it then appear passing strange that after all it should be just what it is. The world is subject-matter for knowledge, because mind has developed in that world; a body-mind, whose structures have developed according to the structures of the world in which it exists, will naturally find some of its structures to be concordant and congenial with nature, and some phases of nature with itself. … In ultimate analysis the mystery that mind should use a body, or that a body should have a mind, is like the mystery that a man cultivating plants should use the soil; or that the soil which grows plants at all should grow those adapted to its own physico-chemical properties and relations. (Experience and Nature, 211-2)
To Dewey's naturalism I would also add the insight of C. I. Lewis: nature appears to us as quantifiable because we choose to quantify it. and Adorno:
Carnap, one of the most radical positivists, once characterized as a stroke of good luck the fact that the laws of logic and mathematics apply to reality. A mode of thought, whose entire pathos lies in its claims to enlightenment, refers, at this central point to an irrational – mythical – concept, such as that stroke of good luck, simply in order to avoid an insight that the supposed lucky circumstance is not really one at all, but rather the product of the ideal of objectivity based on the domination of nature or, as Habermas puts it, the ‘pragmatistic’ ideal of objectivity. (Adorno, “Introduction” to The Positivist Dispute in German Sociology, p. 22).
So the "intelligibility of nature" is, on the one, something that we produce or construct through the historical, political, and economic practices of dominating nature -- and yet, at the same time, there must be something really there to be dominated, something which has the right kind of dynamics to interact with our own. Kantian Naturalist
On top of Hoyle’s Monkeying with physics observations and related fine tuning results, such as the way the cosmos is set up to make the ingredients of C-chemistry, aqueous medium, protein based cellular life forms, that adds to the force of the plausibility of a worldview rooted in Reason himself.
Are you sure it's not Reason herself? Kantian Naturalist
That statement ("is most intelligible in terms of realism") seems reasonable to me. Insofar as the nominalist rejects the possibility of noumenal knowledge (the object), he would naturally be inclined to emphasize the importance of the subject and de-emphasize the importance of the object, unlike the realist who would emphasize both subject and object. StephenB
KN: Have you pondered the why of the almost unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics in scientific endeavours, how often an obscure and seemingly dubious mathematical consequence is then found to be an accurate prediction? For instance, the attempted refutation of Young's wave-interference theory by suggesting the shadow of a small sphere would have a dot of light in its centre. Ridiculous! But, someone checked, and bingo, there it was. Math works by logical connexions, wherein if A holds, then B must also hold. We lock A to observed reality and we predict and test B. But there is an implication, that reality is logically coherent in ways that are often quantifiable. And that coherence then pops up in astonishing results like the Euler expression that brings together ever so many domains of Mathematics in one single result: 0 = 1 + e^i*pi. All of this is a further set of pointers that Mind lies behind cosmos, a highly logical and mathematical Mind. On top of Hoyle's Monkeying with physics observations and related fine tuning results, such as the way the cosmos is set up to make the ingredients of C-chemistry, aqueous medium, protein based cellular life forms, that adds to the force of the plausibility of a worldview rooted in Reason himself. KF kairosfocus
I can see how that makes sense. I take it, then, that the objectivity of logic and mathematics is best explained in terms of (is most intelligible in terms of? is only intelligible in light of?) realism about logical principles and mathematical entities? Kantian Naturalist
Kantian Naturalist
Suppose someone accepts nominalism about universals, rejects Platonism about numbers, etc. In your view, would that person be rationally entitled to believe that logic and mathematics are objective?
It seems to me that while the words “subjectivism” and “nominalism” cannot be used interchangeably, the two ideas are eminently compatible. Based on my personal experience of interacting with nominalists, I would guess that they are much more interested in what goes on inside the mind than outside of it, possibly because they think that the latter element is inaccessible. Accordingly, I suspect that most nominalists would say that the truths of logic are solely subjective (epistemological and psychological). As you know, I hold that logical principles also pertain to objective reality (ontological). In keeping with that same point, I suspect that most nominalists would say that mathematics is associated with subjective truths and limited to mental models of description, while I would argue that nature itself, apart from our mental models, is also mathematical, otherwise it could not be described mathematically. StephenB
@Graham, all of the following: 'Groan. Quantum mechanics again. Yes, its counter-intuitive. Got that.' No, Graham. If you need your intuition to tell you that quantum mechanics is utterly weird, impenetrable to human logic, you are probably, quite technically, a cretin. No disgrace in that. We have to play the hand we're dealt. But a play-school would perhaps suit your needs better. 'And yes, great scientists can be religious, and wax eloquent, but it doesn't show in the applications of Science.' On the contrary. The roll-call of the most seminally innovative, epoch-making scientists consists almost entirely of theists, not to say Christians. And the greatest of them were what you would consider 'religious nuts' - including Galileo, by the way. Yours are almost entirely second-raters. 'Axel @95: You seem to be saying that Quantum mechanics is magic. Is this correct ? Perhaps you could rephrase it in plain English (without the spittle).' I'm sorry, Gray, I didn't realise English wasn't your first language. I wouldn't have responded to your post, had I realised. I expect you have someone nearby, perhaps a neighbour, who can translate this post for you. 'Perhaps you could rephrase it in plain English (without the spittle).' Nothing wrong with spittle, Gray. Good antispetic. Just the job for dirty, old keyboards. Axel
StephenB, I have a question about your definitions of "objective" and "subjective" at your 552. Suppose someone accepts nominalism about universals, rejects Platonism about numbers, etc. In your view, would that person be rationally entitled to believe that logic and mathematics are objective? Kantian Naturalist
Elvis4708
As you understand I, and many with me, do not accept divine moral[ity] as objective."
Divine morality is, by definition, objective with respect to humans. To argue that Divine authority is not binding or legitimate is one thing, but to say that it is not “objective” is illogical.
Of course I think your last paragraph is totally wrong.
Do you mean this one: “There are no examples of humans successfully banding together to establish a moral code from the bottom up.” I simply stated a fact. No group of humans has ever banded together to establish a moral code from the bottom up. If you think otherwise, all you have to do is provide a single example from any historical era. StephenB
Elvis4708
We are just in the beginning of the democratic era. Monotheism is its largest obstacle.
You argued that there are examples of enduring pure democracies. I asked you to name just one example. My question persists.
I wrote “objectivity in the sense that all concerned agree upon its validity” which is the only way to define objectivity of moral codes since moral codes cannot be assessed by means of observation.
The only option is to use the consensus concept. Time is thus a crucial factor for this definition of objectivity since people change their minds over time.
I am afraid that you still do not understand the meanings of the words you are using. Please note of difference in meaning between "objective" and "subjective." OBJECTIVE --"not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion." --"intent upon or dealing with things external to the mind rather than with thoughts or feelings, as a person or a book." --"being the object of perception or thought; belonging to the object of thought rather than to the thinking subject." --"of or pertaining to something that can be known, or to something that is an object or a part of an object; existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality." SUBJECTIVE "existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought" "pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual: a subjective evaluation." Objective morality, therefore, is that code which exists independent of the individual and external to the mind. It belongs to the object of thought not to the thinking subject. An objective moral code, then, is not one that people arrive at by means pooling their subjective ideas into a consensus decision. It is rather a self-evident truth external to the mind that reasonable people are capable of apprehending and grasping. By contrast, a subjective moral code is just something that individuals make up for themselves as they go along. Rather than change his behavior to conform to the unchanging moral code, the subjectivist seeks to change moral code to fit his behavior, claiming that each person is his own moral authority and that he is answerable to no other.
As you understand I, and many with me, do not accept divine moral[ity] as objective." Divine morality is, by definition, objective with respect to humans. To argue that Divine authority is not binding or legitimate is one thing, but to say that it is not "objective" is illogical.
Of course I think your last paragraph is totally wrong.
Do you mean this one: "There are no examples of humans successfully banding together to establish a moral code from the bottom up." I simply stated a fact. No group of humans has ever banded together to establish a moral code from the bottom up. If you think otherwise, all you have to do is provide a single example from any historical era.
StephenB
#550
I have words that can be used to describe your character, but I abstain from doing so.
I'm sure we can all thank you for your discretion. And you needn't worry, I won't embarras myself by changing around the letters in your moniker in order to defend my position. My apologies to WJM for disrupting on his thread. Upright BiPed
PieBed 548; Says PieBed; "I used ‘cut and paste’ to copy your words, so I would be quite surprised that any of them had changed". What does this mean? Do you mean that I made amendments to my original text? Why don´t you ask for apology instead? Any reader can check my original text at Comment 287 above. I have words that can be used to describe your character, but I abstain from doing so. Elvis4708
#547
Disregarding his arrogance, BiPed is wrong, completely wrong, as is verified by the citation I refer to.
The cite you quote merely reflects a belief that someday science may unravel the mystery of life's origin. It does nothing whatsoever to support your conclusions. Why you think otherwise is totally perplexing. As for arrogance, Merriam-Webster defines it in terms of "presumptuous claims or assumptions". Your use of that description on me is a little odd, given that your last revelation above has completely emptied your position of any merit, although you intent to hold to your conclusions anyway. In contrast, I am willing to put my position out there and argue for it on material grounds. Which one of us is presumptuous in this case? If you'd like I can offer my position in a single paragraph. You can then take the opportunity to demonstrate to be false:
In a material universe, it is not possible to transfer any form of recorded information into a material effect without using an arrangement of matter (or energy) as a medium. If that is true, then other material necessities must logically follow. Firstly, such a medium must operate to evoke a material effect within a system capable of producing that effect. Universal observation and logical necessity demonstrate this to be true. Secondly, if a medium contains information as a consequence of its arrangement, then that arrangement must be materially arbitrary to the effect it evokes. Again, universal observation and logical necessity demonstrate this to be true. And thirdly, if an arrangement of matter requires a system to produce an effect that it is materially arbitrary to, then that system must contain a second arrangement of matter to establish the otherwise non-existent relationship between the medium and its effect. Once again, universal observation and logical necessity demonstrate this to be true. If each of these things are true, then in order to transfer any form of recorded information, the process fundamentally requires two arrangements of matter, each with a materially arbitrary quality, operating as an irreducible core within a system. And because Darwinian evolution requires the transfer and translation of information in order to exist itself, it cannot be the source of the system. Given these observations, a mechanism capable of establishing this semiotic state is necessary prior to the onset of information-based organization, as well as Darwinian evolution.
Upright BiPed
Elvis,
In your first paragraph you quote me incorrectly. The citation of yours give the reader the impression that the model proposed by me is “best” in an absolute sense(no one can ever construe a better model).
I used 'cut and paste' to copy your words, so I would be quite surprised that any of them had changed. As to context, I am certain that the average reader "gets it" that we have competing models which we are debating over. I am also quite certain that the average reader "gets it" that each of us believes our own models are better supported than the others. I am merely pointing out that you argued for your model under the notion that science supports your conclusions, and I have challenged you on those grounds.
First, adding “except its existence” is adding a tautology
To say "evolution doesn't explain the existence of life" is not a tautology. To say "this apple pie is marvelous, who made it?" is not a tautology.
One central idea of ID is that organic matter never can come into existence from inorganic matter.
No, that is not a central idea of ID in biology. Biological design proponents are quite comfortable with the elements listed on the Periodic Table, and they rightly believe that everything in the Universe is formed from those elements. So let us make the distinction between the existence of hydrogen, carbon, and potassium and, say, the existence of an ATP synthase or a transmembrane escort protein for example. The latter are formed directly from the processing of recorded genetic information, and you'll quickly notice that information is not listed on the Periodic Table. ID is concerned with where the original information came from (making organic organization possible) and how that information came to be recorded in genetic material utilizing the same semiotic methods which would not appear again in the material record until billions of years after life first appeared on earth. You see, this is about matter, and making valid material observations, and not turning your back on those material observations based upon personal ideologis.
To support this statement...
I am not attempting to support your assesment of ID because, as pointed out, it is hopelessly incorrect.
To support this statement you present the following imprudence, of course in an impertinent form; “The great distinction between our positions is that I am not forced to ignore the evidence already documented by science”. “Not forced”?
It is true that you ignore the material evidence presented by ID, at least to the questionable extent that you even understand it. And "no", I am not forced in the slightest to ignore material evidence. If you believe otherwise, then you are certainly welcome to present material evidence relevant to ID's claims and make your case.
It seems as though you have neglected the scientific evidence altogether. Why not take a look at “The Emergence of Life on Earth” by Iris Fry. Allow me to quote; “Acknowledging the problems and difficulties that the origin-of-life field is facing, the common conviction is that science will eventually unravel the working of these processes”(p 5).
You have got to be kidding me. A person summarizes the difficulties in OOL research, then closes with the conviction that they'll figure it all out some day - and this is the scientific evidence I am avoiding?!?!
your statement that “the only documented source of a physicochemically-arbitrary relationship within material system is an agent” stands out as another ID-hoax.
Really? What work (basic research, compiled reading, discussions with experts in relevant fields, ect) have you done to support this statement? Would it be fair to say that you've done nothing whatsoever?
Finally, from an analytical standpoint regarding the text you are referring to; I don´t care if the potential cause is an agent or an unknown mechanism.
If this is true, you've eviscerated your own position, leaving yourself with nothing to justify the very conclusions which you previously stated were the better explanation of earthly life. This is hardly a convincing turn of events. But given this last revelation, there seems to be scant reason to continue the discussion. Best of luck... Upright BiPed
PeterJ 544; Upright BiPed says; "I am not forced to ignore the evidence already documented by science". Thus he means 1/ that I ignore science because I have to and 2/ that science supports him. Disregarding his arrogance, BiPed is wrong, completely wrong, as is verified by the citation I refer to. Elvis4708
Alan Fox 537 I am not impressed by your idol! Elvis4708
StephenB 536 1. We are just in the beginning of the democratic era. Monotheism is its largest obstacle. 2. I wrote “objectivity in the sense that all concerned agree upon its validity” which is the only way to define objectivity of moral codes since moral codes cannot be assessed by means of observation. The only option is to use the consensus concept. Time is thus a crucial factor for this definition of objectivity since people change their minds over time. As you understand I, and many with me, do not accept divine moral as objective. This moral is construed by a number of sages/politicians and their scribes some two thousand years ago. As I´ve said before; There are no objective moral codes, particularly not eternal moral codes. 3. Of course I think your last paragraph is totally wrong. Elvis4708
Elvis, Please excuse me if I am missing something but can you expplain to how this: “Acknowledging the problems and difficulties that the origin-of-life field is facing, the common conviction is that science will eventually unravel the working of these processes”(p 5). Therefore leads to this: "So you are totally in the blue and your statement that “the only documented source of a physicochemically-arbitrary relationship within material system is an agent” stands out as another ID-hoax" Cheers. PeterJ
Upright BiPed 533; 1. In your first paragraph you quote me incorrectly. The citation of yours give the reader the impression that the model proposed by me is “best” in an absolute sense(no one can ever construe a better model). That is not the case. I just claim that my model is better than any theistic model, a claim that is far easier to demonstrate! This is how I wrote; “…research results within scientific fields such as genetics and quantum mechanics should lead any logical observer to the conclusion that a stochastic, dynamic evolution model explains earthly life MUCH BETTER THAN ANY (DETERMINISTIC, STATIC) RELIGIOUS MODEL OF DIVINE PROVIDENCE.” (Caps by me) 2. Paragraph 2; First, adding “except its existence” is adding a tautology since life presupposes existence! This is simple logic as can be confirmed by any eloquent reader. Existence arises prior to life no matter of physicochemically-arbitrary relationships or other mumbo jumbo. One central idea of ID is that organic matter never can come into existence from inorganic matter. To support this statement you present the following imprudence, of course in an impertinent form; “The great distinction between our positions is that I am not forced to ignore the evidence already documented by science”. "Not forced"? It seems as though you have neglected the scientific evidence altogether. Why not take a look at “The Emergence of Life on Earth” by Iris Fry. Allow me to quote; “Acknowledging the problems and difficulties that the origin-of-life field is facing, the common conviction is that science will eventually unravel the working of these processes”(p 5). So you are totally in the blue and your statement that “the only documented source of a physicochemically-arbitrary relationship within material system is an agent” stands out as another ID-hoax. Finally, from an analytical standpoint regarding the text you are referring to; I don´t care if the potential cause is an agent or an unknown mechanism. Elvis4708
Mung: At this stage, I hardly think AF is unaware that in inductive reasoning we establish reliable connexions on repeated observations of patterns. In this case, that functional, information expressed in material entities by codes, modulation of physical quantities, etc, once we have sufficient functional complexity, reliably traces to intelligence. I hardly think he is unaware that, in addressing the unobserved past that has left traces or clues, one can use such reliable connexions between sign and signified as circumstantial evidence, in light of the well known Newtonian approach that with such signs in play it is reasonable to infer that like causes like; on which we may identify a cluster of reasonable candidates and even winnow down to specific cause of a given sign. Indeed, we do not see him and his ilk outside courts, protesting that circumstantial evidence is inherently and inescapably suspect. Not at all. That is a big clue to what is going on when we see the sort of willful obtuseness we are increasingly being presented with on matters of inferring on naturally occurring signs when the normal pattern of reasoning would possibly point where ideological materialists do not want to go. Notice, his question: What agent? His objection, is patently that it is possible that the agent implied by design investigations may be God. The materialist anathema is brought into play, and logic or fair mindedness are tossed out the window. No evidence can be allowed to point in THAT direction, at any cost, on any convenient rhetoric. It matters not that circumstantial evidence can be highly reliable. It matters not that that twerdun is different from whodunit. It matters not that there simply are no serious cases of FSCI beyond 500 bits shown to have originated by blind chance and mechanical necessity, compared to billions all around us showing the power of intelligent contrivance. It matters not that science is supposed to be objective, open minded and truth-seeking in light of observed evidence. All that matters is that on the signs in this case, whether for OOL or OO body plans or on wider patterns OO the observed cosmos, there is a Shadow on the door step that MUST NOT BE ALLOWED INSIDE THE CLUBHOUSE. That determined, ideological, a priori commitment to materialism (and its fellow travellers) is what we are up against, and the rules of reasoning are rigged. The nature of science and its methods are rigged. The history of science is distorted into lies -- speaking with disregard to truth, hoping to profit from the false narrative being perceived as truth. In the end, such can only be exposed, and the call for reformation in light of identified intellectual and moral bankruptcy has to be made. Which again brings us full circle to underscoring the point in the original post. KF kairosfocus
Upright BiPed:
...there are no known instances of a physicochemically-arbitrary relationship instantiated in a material system that are not associated with an agent.
Alan Fox:
What agent?
Which instance? Mung
As for your question, there are no known instances of a physicochemically-arbitrary relationship instantiated in a material system that are not associated with an agent.
What agent? Alan Fox
This includes observations which you were not familiar with and could not refute.
And yet after having confessed his lack of competence (or even interest), he feels qualified to comment on the exchanges you had with others. Go figure. Mung
Alan, The notion that you feel compelled to introduce me is quite a compliment. However, the argument that fostered your opinion of me has nothing to do with my intellect - it has to do with material evidence. This includes observations which you were not familiar with and could not refute. As for your question, there are no known instances of a physicochemically-arbitrary relationship instantiated in a material system that are not associated with an agent. This holds true from humans to bacteria. There are no counter-examples. Upright BiPed
On the other hand, the only documented source of a physicochemically-arbitrary relationship within material system is an agent.
What agent? What documented source? @ Elvis4708 Before crossing swords with the mighty Upright Biped, be warned! You are not the first to have encountered his massive intellect! Alan Fox
Elvis 4708
If so we would not have stable democracies like those we have in the West.
Which country would you point to by name as an example of an enduring pure democracy?
Even if a set of moral codes are “objective” in the sense that all concerned agree upon its validity at some point in time it is not necessarily “objective” for all time.
You seem not to understand the meaning of the term "objective morality," which has nothing to do with time or what is agreed upon.
For example; bans on contraceptives, abortion and stem cell research emanate from the belief that each and every childbirth is the will of God and should therefore not be prevented, nor competed with. Two thousand years ago this view of childbirth caused no problems – of obvious reasons. Today it is far from an “objective” moral code.
Again, time has no bearing on the matter. If an act is objectively evil in 100 A.D. then it is also objectively evil in 2100 A.D. It is through the objective natural moral law that we can discern which acts are objectively evil and which ones are not. It has nothing to do with consensus decisions or uniformed popular opinions. I notice, for example, that you refer to "stem cell" research" without making the distinction between the use of adult stem cells, which is morally acceptable, and the use of embryonic stem cells, which is not. Again, I notice that you fail to distinguish between natural means for preventing births, which can be morally acceptable, and artificial means, which cannot. Yet again, you do not differentiate between abortion, which is the deliberate and cold-blooded act of killing of a fetus for the sake of killing a fetus as opposed to a life-saving medical procedure for the mother that accidentally kills the fetus. On the question of which kinds of acts "cause problems," we can always be assured that moral acts cause fewer long-term problems than immoral acts. That is one of the many differences between the two. In the meantime, I will return to the original point of the post. There are no examples of humans successfully banding together to establish a moral code from the bottom up. To be sure, an organization can apply consensus methods to decide on business strategy, but this happens only when its mission is understood and its ethical framework is already in place. StephenB
KF: #524 Agreed, but again my point is to present the fact that information is contained in pre-Christ writings that have such mathematical (scientific) improbability in their fulfillment at a specific future time and place and specified goals and reasons that thus provide for and Prove a Rational to Theistic reasons for reality that are akin to all the cosmological and biological evidences, yet even greater than those because only an infinite mind, separate from space, material and time could provide such specified information prior to their taking place. - i.e. "you do well to pay attention" etc. Conversely, atheism has no such tools for establishing a rational ground for it, only - as in "theology" only philosophy grounded on personal preference for what ever reasons that preference came about. alan
E:
...because these scientific fields have demonstrated the existence of genuine uncertainties...
From our inability to take measurements how does it follow that there is a real underlying uncertainty in the physical structure? Mung
Elvis,
As to your 322-comment I think there is a misunderstanding.
From my perspective I’m sorry to say that I don’t see it as a misunderstanding at all – I see it as an equivocation. You came to UD to attack beliefs you see as untenable, and have gone to great lengths to wrap your conclusions in the flag of “intellectual honesty” (with its concurrent implications for those who do not believe as you do). You stated that science “should lead any logical observer to the conclusion that a stochastic, dynamic evolution model explains earthly life”. Now, having been challenged to substantiate that claim (and perhaps realizing that you cannot meet that challenge), you wish to equivocate and narrow your claim from the notion that evolution “explains earthly life”, to the notion that evolution explains everything about life – except its existence. This is a familiar refrain around here, and ID proponents would likely be rich if they had a dime for each time this tactic had been employed (going back to Darwin, who himself used it). What you gain from this maneuver is the ability couch your beliefs in evolution’s explanatory powers behind the assumption of an unknown mechanism for life’s origin. You assume your conclusion by taking the stance that we don’t have sufficient evidence for a cause of life’s origin already in hand. Even more egregious, in making this assumption you are obliged to ignore the material evidence we already have, and thereby force an irrational dilemma which may only be resolved by observing the rise of life from non-life (again) and having access to its cause. The great distinction between our positions is that I am not forced to ignore the evidence already documented by science. Moreover, from the standpoint of valid material evidence, your separation of evolution from origins is decimated by the fact that the very thing which allows evolution to exist, is also the exact same thing required at the origin of life. You cannot separate them because you cannot explain the former without the latter. However, your attempt to separate them can certainly put the test to your claim of “intellectual honesty”.
The text of mine you are quoting is about divine providence vs stochastic evolution of human life, not creation.
Darwinian evolution and creation both require a material condition where physicochemically-arbitrary relationships are instantiated in a material system. Darwinian evolution cannot be the source of those material conditions because it requires them to exist. (To say otherwise, is to say that the process of Darwinian evolution, which does not yet exist on a prebiotic earth, can cause something to happen – which is obviously false). On the other hand, the only documented source of a physicochemically-arbitrary relationship within material system is an agent. Are you suggesting by the separation (of life’s evolution from life’s origin) that a belief in agency involvement as a potential cause of life’s origin (given the documented material facts already in hand) has as much or more explanatory power than the mere belief in an unknown mechanism? Upright BiPed
E: Democracies do fail, and can fail by the three wolves and two sheep vote on what is for lunch route . . . the break down of utilitarianism. Absent a basis for values, democratic government is itself in danger. In that context the issue of objective grounding of key values and virtues, habits and dispositions is pivotal, and cannot be properly ducked. KF kairosfocus
E; OOL is the root of the tree of life, and is as much a matter to be answered to as OO body plans. I know it is rhetorically convenient to pretend that school and college textbooks make a hard and fast distinction and never address OOL in addressing evolution, but that is not true. Similarly, the whole point of the TOL model is that inter alia it points to its root. From a different view, seeing that the best explanation for moving from a warm little pond or the like to a living cell with metabolic and self replication using code, is credibly design, transforms how the rest of the world of life is looked at. So, the question of origin of functionally specific complex organisation and associated information, is highly relevant to both. KF kairosfocus
StephenB; 1. It is true that democracies have failed from time to time. A well functioning democracy does not come easy! But I cannot accept your description of democracies turning tyrannies as a general model. If so we would not have stable democracies like those we have in the West. An issue to discuss, though, is what intrinsic characteristics of a civilization are necessary to make that civilization democratic. 2. Even if a set of moral codes are "objective" in the sense that all concerned agree upon its validity at some point in time it is not necessarily "objective" for all time. For example; bans on contraceptives, abortion and stem cell research emanate from the belief that each and every childbirth is the will of God and should therefore not be prevented, nor competed with. Two thousand years ago this view of childbirth caused no problems – of obvious reasons. Today it is far from an "objective" moral code. Elvis4708
kairosfocus; I don´t know why some people find my text so hard to understand! It has nothing with creation to do and it sees evolution as a part of life, not as its instigator! Given this, given the already existing universe, nature and its life, how can human life best be described? The central issue for you ID-people and for wholehearted atheists, like Dawkins, is whether evolution can explain "everything" or not. But, as should be clear from my text, I do not address that issue - here. Elvis4708
E: What proportion of the space of possible configurations of a string of 500 bits, can the 10^57 atoms of a certain solar system, being there for the lifespan of the observed cosmos to date, at 10^-14 s per chemical level interaction, sample? (cf. here on in context.) What does this suggest in a context where a smallest genome credibly has 100 k to 1 M bits of information? What does this further suggest when body plans for complex organisms credibly begin at 10 mn - 100 mn bits? Indeed, what does it suggest about the likelihood of the origin of a text string of 72 ASCII characters by random typing in such a solar system converted into ultra-fast-typing monkeys, typewriters, desks, paper, banana plantations, etc? In this light, why are you willing to suggest chance combined with differential reproductive success -- which itself requires a further complex subsystem joined to the already complex metabolic systems -- as a plausible explanation for OOL and/or of body plans? And if so, are you willing to take up the UD Darwinism 6,000 word essay challenge, now approaching 4 months unanswered? Do you see the relevance of these issues to the main issue in the OP, in light of this concern [cf context, regarding Lewontin, NAS, NSTA etc]? KF kairosfocus
Upright BiPed; I´m sorry. I neglected you by pure mistake. There are many critics to keep track of... As to your 322-comment I think there is a misunderstanding. The text of mine you are quoting is about divine providence vs stochastic evolution of human life, not creation. I refer to genetics and quantum mechanics because these scientific fields have demonstrated the existence of genuine uncertainties that, together with natural selection, support a stochastic evolutionary model of human life. Elvis4708
KN: I must also add, that, in an age where we tend to scant history and where classical studies -- and here that should I guess include a good slice of theology and Bible, the last remaining, largely dying part -- has all but vanished as a province of the academy, we severely underestimate the influence of these factors in the thought that shaped the era of the reformation and the rise of the American Republic, then its spreading and modifications that led to the rise of modern democracies. As I recall, the single most cited source among the leadership strata of the American experiment, was Deuteronomy, in effect the constitution of the commonwealth of Israel, which in context sees a monarchy as a distinct second best (the denunciation in 1 Sam 8 is amazing). Similarly, I find a lot of echoes of classical issues in Greece and Rome, and not just in architecture. These were practically minded men deeply aware of human finitude, fallibility, fallenness, struggle and ill will, who distrusted speculative academic thinking in abstract isolation, and relied on the weight of the evidence of the past, as distilled through careful reflection on its significance and potentials. They also respected balanced compromises, recognising that though the Dutch antecedent was flawed, it held forth some promise. Likewise, they were working against the backdrop of a manifestly failing earlier attempt, and saw the need for a stronger centre and a better balance with the states that had emerged from the revolution, i.e. the Articles of Confederation are also significant, as are the state constitutions and the differential successes and failures across the time to 1787. The press of the Dissenters that led to the reluctant enfolding of the first ten amendments, is a similar compromise, which time has shown the wisdom of. Of course the compromises on slavery led to bloodshed eighty years later when further generations refused to rebalance in good time to reflect the developing situation. And of course the overall framing of the Constitution itself pivots on the great compromise that saved the Convention. Notice, in this regard, the observation of Franklin on how much of a compromise and what we could do, that the whole work was. Indeed, I even find reason to suspect that there was a rooting of even the DOI of 1776 in the Dutch one of 1581, as echoed in structure, themes, and more. (There is even a hint in words of a member of the drafting committee.) While Spinoza et al did contribute to the general atmosphere, it seems to me that a fairer balance is that these men were viewed as having fatal flaws, but maybe some good points in places. Those good points were picked up by others, so why bother with the baggage and the fights you did not have to fight? And, going beyond, the central issue I am making is not one that is primarily about democracy, but about what a civil society needs to be a civil peace of justice: a foundation for mutual respect and recognition and protection of rights, especially of the relatively powerless and voiceless in the teeth of those who wield power and wealth and tend to throw their weight around. Hume got one thing right: unless the grounds for OUGHT are in the foundation of our worldviews, they cannot successfully be injected thereafter in an era in which many are inclined to question and challenge. We must have a worldview foundational IS that can ground OUGHT. The best answer I have seen, is the inherently good God, the creator who has made us equal and endowed us with rights. An answer that many are inclined to deride or dismiss, without seeming to realise that hey had better answer soundly to the grounding challenge or they will do much harm. For reasons I say this, look all around, and that goes to the heart of the point made in the OP. KF kairosfocus
KN: Democratic Republics and Parliamentary systems with even Monarchies are still prone to the sort of manipulations I just pointed out in the other thread, and while political messiahs do provide the face cards for manipulations, they are just the front men for something much bigger and far, far more deadly than one or two glib mouthed figures. I think Ac 27 is a parable based on a real world historical incident that we all need to heed. KF kairosfocus
Alan: Biblos looks good, indeed. Dan 7 has pivotal significance as it appears to be the passage cited by Jesus in his trial before the members of the Sanhedrin in answer to the adjuring by the Living God question that forced him to reply on pain of blasphemy if he remained silent. It is also echoed in the transfiguration event, in the ascension, and appears in the sort of testimony of seeing his glory that we observe, also in the lynching of Stephen in which we see an almost direct quote as a live visionary incident. KF kairosfocus
Kariofocus at #479 check out http://www.biblos.com/ Pardon, but your ref - Dan. 7:9-14 does not fit with my point because it does not contain a time stamp fulfillment. Yes, you and I know Who is being pictured, but that does not help LT. alan
LT at 477: I posted at your site and add that the information content contained in just this example qualifies as a scientific argument, but admittedly having profound metaphysical implications. I presented a summation which should be helpful, much more is available. alan
KN: The issues I am raising significantly antedate the enlightenment era, indeed in the case of the 1581 Dutch DOI, we will see law of nature terminology in a Calvinist state paper that directly echoes Vindicia by Duplessis-Mornay in 1579. Remember, a century later, after Rutherford in the 1640's [Lex Rex], Locke is in effect grounding a good slice of the issue of reciprocal duties of respect that are at the heart of what would later become modern, representational democracy. In so doing, c 1690, he reaches back to a statement by Hooker c. 1594, which builds on the Judaeo-Christian tradition as expressed in Jesus [c. 28 AD), in Paul [in the specific context of citizenship, in the early Roman imperium, 57 AD] and in turn these are citing the Hebraic tradition codified under Moshe c 1440 BC. The point is, that if a democracy neglects or undermines these, it heads for the problem SB just pointed to again [in words that echo my old history texts from decades ago], which I have repeatedly summed up as three wolves and two sheep voting on what is for lunch. That is also why I highlight the issue in the US DOI of 1776 which echoes the double covenant understanding of nationhood and government under God that is a thread through all of the developments of the reformation era. And in case you think I am misunderstanding the frame of mind of the US founding generation, I point you to inter alia -- there is a whole trove on this -- the call to penitence and prayer of May that same year issued by the Congress, and the call to thanksgiving and prayer for December the next year. These are so explicit, so direct as to defy any revisionism. Indeed, I had long heard that the US Revolution was preached as a revival; what I did not see until I saw these calls to prayer (they could never be read in schools in today's era of ACLU activism, a telling issue . . . ), was that the Congress itself was chief among such preachers. We need to give Jack his jacket. And we must not forget either the main focus of the thread or the reason this secondary question has come up. Absent a solid grounding for morality, rights and justice in a worldview foundational IS that objectively grounds OUGHT -- where rights are expectations that we ought to be treated with respect in ways tracing to our innate moral worth as human beings ("endowed . . . ") -- we end up in a radical relativisation that opens the door to nihilistic manipulation and leading to the three wolf two sheep vote problem. Only, in many realistic cases, the minorities at stake may well have much lower percentages. Nor can I shut up in the face of votes to preserve the so-called right to kill unborn children in the womb who are in many cases simply deemed inconvenient or unwelcome. On that, I must cry, I must plead, I must warn that mass bloodguilt is one of the most corrosive influences in any democracy. I fear, we are seeing the results of that for a full generation now, all across our civilisation. For god's sake, let us stop, even at the brink. KF kairosfocus
Where did you come from? You have obviously not been following the debate!
Elvis, When you first proposed that scientific findings support your beliefs, I challenged that in comment #322. When you ignored my challenge, I responded at #373. You then ignored that comment as well. And so when you engaged in the ridiculous sophistry that parental beliefs added something of value to the conversation, I commented again at #394. You have yet to respond to anything I've said, but most importantly, you have yet to respond to #322. This leads me to the rather defensible assumption that you cannot support your comments regarding material evidence, yet you want to promote the idea that your positions are based on evidence and reason. I have no desire to derail WJM’s conversation with you, but when you come here and make claims about material evidence that are demonstrably false, and then refuse to even attempt to support those claims, I feel compelled to call you on it. The bottom line is that your claim is false, and can be demonstrated to be so. You want to be an atheist - fine - but stop pretending that your beliefs are the valid product of science or enlightenment. Upright BiPed
Much as I'm enjoying this debate, there are some historical wrinkles to consider with respect to the relation between Christian theism and democratic republicanism. Kairosfocus has appealed to Locke as someone who thought they were fundamentally compatible -- indeed, that the former is the 'foundation' for the latter -- but Locke is not the only philosopher worth considering in this light. Jonathan Israel has written a massive, three-volume study of the Enlightenment. I'm now reading the short version, A Revolution of the Mind: Radical Enlightenment and the Intellectual Origins of Modern Democracy. Israel makes several controversial but I think very interesting claims. First, he distinguishes between "the radical Enlightenment" and "the moderate Enlightenment," where the radical Enlightenment argued for complete secularism, pacificism, the abolition of aristocracy and monarchy, morality based on reason alone -- whereas the moderate Enlightenment walked those claims back, softened them considerably, and made them more acceptable to the established order (aristocracy and clergy). Second, he argues that the history of the Enlightenment is best understood in terms of how the radical Enlightenment came up the revolutionary ideas first, and then the moderate Enlightenment would water them down, and this meant making them less threatening to the establishments. Thirdly, the most central figure of the radical Enlightenment is Baruch (or Benedict) Spinoza. He considers the radical Enlightenment as beginning with Spinoza and to some extent Pierre Bayle, then continuing with Diderot and d'Hollbach in France, Paine and Priestly in England, and Lessing in Germany. By contrast, Locke, Hume, and Kant are all figures of the moderate Enlightenment. On Israel's narrative, the thinkers of the radical Enlightenment invented the very idea of democratic republicanism (hence not a 'direct democracy', easily swayed by charismatic demagogues, as Kairosfocus has pointed out) and did regard it as antithetical to Christian theism. (Spinoza is explicit about this -- living on the margins of society as he did, he could afford to be candid in his views -- although Theological-Political Treatise was published anonymously and Ethics posthumously. He was not concerned about his reputation, but about his life.) To the extent that we today think that theism (now "Judeo-Christian", apparently) is compatible with, and indeed foundational for, democratic republicanism, is an indication not only that the moderate Enlightenment prevailed over the Counter-Enlightenment, but also an indication of how the moderate Enlightenment has overshadowed its radical older sibling. Kantian Naturalist
Elvis4708
A small remark; I wrote about TRUE democracies which is a phenomenon that, in general, came into existence after the universal suffrage was introduced, i.e. after the first world war. The senate of Athens in antiquity was indeed not a true democracy – as you well know.
A pure democracy seeks to forge a collective morality based on popular opinion. It is always unfair because it leads to a tyranny of the minority by the majority and, equally important, it encourages the chaos of conflicting personal moralities. Competing ideologies strive to gain hegemonic control, culminating in a war of all against all. In order to restore order, a tyrannical individual or group institutes a new and even more intrusive morality based on the personal preferences of a few. For the sake of normative order, tyranny of the majority is transformed into unqualified tyranny. A well-ordered society, on the other hand, must provide a moral framework that holds everyone accountable, including the majority and even those who have the power to establish civil laws. The objective Natural Moral Law, which recognizes the dignity of every living person, is the only standard that can preserve natural rights and inform the establishment of impartial laws. At the same time, it provides a culture with the necessary guidance and flexibility to grow, respond to change, or even lead change in a moral direction. As it turns out, only the Judeo/Christian tradition upholds the natural moral law and the inherent dignity of every human person. Neither the progressive extremism of atheism nor the reactionary extremism of Islam recognizes natural rights. The concepts of "due process," "consent by the governed," and "inherent dignity" all come from the Bible. You will find nothing like that in the Humanist Manifesto or the Koran. Sadly, the United States, which once celebrated these liberating religious principles, has abandoned its own natural law ethic and will, insofar as it continues in that direction, degenerate into a tyranny of elites. In some ways, it has already come to that point. The atheistic barbarians are winning. StephenB
Upright BiPed; Where did you come from? You have obviously not been following the debate! Elvis4708
AF; Pardon, but that's silly. There is a well known issue of mob rule as a possible deterioration of democracies, with examples ancient and modern. And from hints you have given, you know so, so show that you are operating at a different level from the snip and snipe artists we see all too many of here. You also know or should know the exact living memory case that I spoke of in Europe. In the relevant context of breakdown of classical civilisations, there was a serious problem of invasions, raiding, piracy and the like. Having sufficient men sufficiently armed, armoured and knowledgeable/skilled to deal with such attacks was a problem, and one solution was indeed the rise of the class of mounted, increasingly heavily armed, armoured cavalry and retainers. If you dispute this, kindly explain otherwise the origin of the shift to armoured cavalry that happened after the breakdown of the Legion system in the West. And indeed in the East too, the Empire shifted to horse, though I suspect some of the reasons were significantly different. KF kairosfocus
...you need a strong man to hold off the wolves from without...
Wasn't someone being castigated in another thread for talking about the sheep/wolves allegory? This is precisely what I mean about building an argument without reference to current facts. Similar arguments are put forward by US politicians regarding the "War on Drugs". This has been a singularly successful campaign over the years, at least for the booming prison industry. Alan Fox
E: The Athenians would beg to differ with us on the subject. We have modified and broadened the representativeness of their system. The same problem obtains that without a generally acknowledged basis for liberty and rights respected by the community on the whole, democracies tend to deteriorate into mob power games. As, is happening around us as we speak. KF kairosfocus
Elvis at 505, Does intellectual honesty play a prominent role in your vision? I only ask because of your opening suggestion that science had provided the material evidence to convince any rational observer of the falsity of theism. I have attempted to get you substantiate your claim, yet you have avoided that challenge. I believe you avoid the challenge in order to protect your views from evidence and reason, while implying they are the result of it. So my question is remains valid; what role do you assign to intellectual honesty in developing your worldview? Upright BiPed
kairosfocus; A small remark; I wrote about TRUE democracies which is a phenomenon that, in general, came into existence after the universal suffrage was introduced, i.e. after the first world war. The senate of Athens in antiquity was indeed not a true democracy - as you well know. Murray; After having read your last comment I do understand that our conversation has come to an end. Elvis4708
AF: As in, from the fury of the Northmen, deliver us oh, Lord? And the like [even in preceding centuries], as central government faded and ever so much was lost? As in, one does not have to go in for dark ages mythology to accept that there was a serious breakdown in especially the West that led to the emergence of a new order starting with that grandson of Charles the Hammer, who in turn was defending Frankish rather than Roman territory when he confronted the Muslim invasion force 150 mi from Paris. And what was it they said about the Holy Roman Empire again? (as in, was it, none of the three?) I need not go on and on on the travails of the ever shrinking Eastern Empire and the rise of the Islamic empires. We can pass over the story of the Rus as in crude terms founding what would become the first widespread organised states in Russia. My basic point, from which you would detract, is that democracies and republics can and do fail, and in an era when you need a strong man to hold off the wolves from without, a king and some good solid nobles -- should I say, dux -- with enough base to own horses and [probably chain mail and leather] armour, keep some retainers and have enough practice to do good in a battle shield wall or in a charge, becomes a viable alternative to chaos. which BTW holds c 1,000 BC in Israel too, save that chariots were the weapon of choice then -- I guess horses that could be mounted by armoured riders wielding lances and riding for long hours were not yet viable. And, it is natural to raise up some sons to follow on, hence nobility and monarchy. Land is the base, and so you see protected villagers under overlordship, thence what can become a fort -- castle is too grand -- on suitably good tactical ground, and an estate with traditional ties and obligations. It is after some stability has been restored that more sophisticated things can be put in train, and I like the story of the power of the Welsh longbow and the Swiss halberd and crossbow as metaphors for the democratising influences of viable arms for the common man that would later branch out with the gun. Cannon, muskets and pikes of course allowed kings to cut dukes down to size, though King John shows how things could go the other way, leading to Magna Carta, maybe as good a start point as any for thinking about the beginnings of modern democracy. And we must never forget the horrific shock of the black death. it is in that world that we have printing, map making, the final collapse of Rome in 1453 and more precious MSS going west with refugee scholars [to join those translated through Arabic etc from c 1,000 on and the following train of events . . . ], exploration, the rise of the global world, the reformation and the Bible in the hands of the ordinary man, with Vindiciae lurking in corners behind something like the Dutch DOI of 1581. Then, mix in Kepler, Galileo, Newton. Crude and broad-brush survey but I only aim to be roughly right and stimulating, with room for fine details and adjustments later. KF kairosfocus
...the 300?s – 500?s and then as the situation developed beyond that into a really nasty and painful time where basic survival was often in doubt? Judging by this remark, I doubt we could even find much agreement on the facts of history, let alone the lessons we might learn from history. The so-called "Dark Ages" is such an ill-deserved misnomer as demonstrated by the beautiful artefacts that continue to be discovered. Even Attila was a victim of Christian propaganda! Alan Fox
Apparently, Elvis4708 is more interested in characterizing others according to his preconceived notions, and engaging in self-righteous rhetoric and emotionalism than in rational debate on the merits of his "democracy-based" morality perspective. It seems Elvis sees everything in terms of a choice between theocratic despotism and democratic enlightenment. Until that false emotional commitment is set aside, one is immune to reason. Democracy is simply not the answer to every question. If Elvis believes that all of my and KF's arguments boil down to a wolf/sheep allegory, this demonstrates that he is either incapable of comprehending those arguments, or simply unwilling to address them. William J Murray
AF: Pardon, but your comment above simply reveals utter ignorance of the long term history of our civilisation, joined to an often displayed hostility to the Christian faith. Kindly explain to us how you would have constructed a realistic alternative in the face of inflation, deterioration of institutions, plague, economic collapse and barbarian invasions -- these last apparently driven by other developments in the heart of the Eurasian landmass beyond Roman control -- as the Roman empire moved into the 300's - 500's and then as the situation developed beyond that into a really nasty and painful time where basic survival was often in doubt? Kindly explain to us, what would have offered a better option, and how it could have reasonably prevailed. Then, address the cross section of historical issues on often neglected roots of modern liberty and democracy here. I suggest a read here on roots of science also. KF kairosfocus
E: Are you aware of the story of Athens -- about as homogeneous a state as you will get -- and the Peloponnesian War, and where it ended up? Ever wondered why Plato was no champion of Democracy, as his Republic so plainly shows? Not to mention, his The Laws? And, BTW, before I go further: correction of error and insisting that it be taken seriously in the teeth of dismissals and distractions, is not "rage." The first, most famous democracy in our civilisation suicided based on patterns of instability, corruption in high places and manipulated impulsiveness -- reflect on Alcibiades especially (think of the expedition to Sicily) -- that bear a striking resemblance to three wolves and two sheep voting on what is for lunch. (And the story of Germany, post WWI is not comforting, either. Translate wolves as factions forming coalitions and you see Germany, c. 1930 - 33; the metaphor is not chosen just to be funny. I draw no comfort from how difficult it was for democratic institutions in the USA to break through to the point where they could address the oppression of a minority of was it 10%, which ended up in a civil war. Neither is the present debate on "the 1%" any comfort to me, when I think about the proverb on killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. Without well grounded moral foundations, or where such foundations are in a state of least worst compromise, democracy easily slides into: Wolves, 60% . . . a landslide win. Lamb feast for lunch today, and forget the future -- the chief wolves will figure out a solution when that time comes, sorry for the next intended lamb for lunch but that is the way of the world where cats have no sympathy for mice. (Who am I alluding to here in what context, and how does this tie in with eugenics, scientific racism and aggressive war?) Frankly, that is my assessment of where our civilisation now seems to be headed, with fiscal and ideological irresponsibility in charge, monetary, fiscal, taxation and regulatory policies and ideologies that in aggregate make no sense, toxic demographics, willful blindness in the face of various existential threats, and self delusion as the worldview choice of preference. And, let us not forget: shoot the messenger who brings bad news.) While the Ancients had a whole taxonomy of possible states, on that history, they had a theory of cyclical breakdowns, leading to frustration of progress. Indeed, one of the big reasons behind support for monarchy was, long term relative stability in tough times. You think true democracies are wonderful, and consistently dodge the pivotal issue at their foundation as pointed out from Locke, in his 2nd essay on civil govt, c 1690. Namely, how the pivotal cite on fundamental equality and implications of being made in God's image leads to a culture and community that fosters self government and a limited, lawful state. Let me therefore cite again, what you consistently duck, again, from "the judicious [Anglican Canon Richard} Hooker [in his classic, 1594+ Ecclesiastical Polity]":
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80]
Let me also highlight pivotal aspects of the US DOI of 1776, which clearly show its reformation theology, double covenant view of nationhood and government under God (I will leave it to you to follow up earlier links and reflect on antecedents such as the Dutch DOI of 1581 in context):
When . . . it becomes necessary for one people . . . to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 - 21, 2:14 - 15], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . . . We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions [Cf. Judges 11:27 and discussion in Locke], do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
In short, atheistical, radically realativist, evolutionary materialist scientism is pretty thin stuff to build a civilisation on. It is much more successful at seizing power and feasting on the lamb for lunch, forget the future game. KF kairosfocus
Christianity has helped many kings and emperors to hold their inhabitants under control. But in the West these kings and emperors are gone from the political arena and the church has therefore successively lost much of its power. This successive loss of power has coincided with a tremendous upswing in almost all conceivable aspects of human life, demonstrating that religion is a bondage to humanity, not its liberation.
Well put. Though I would suggest that Christianity in its numerous sects has not been unique in seeing its main chance in supporting the status quo, just the most successful. Alan Fox
kairosfocus and Murray; Gentlemen! Your criticism of my(and many other secularists´) moral holding boils down to the wolves/sheep allegory. This is a very funny one but completely misleading. A constellation of citizens like that in the allegory can never constitute a democracy. You can never form a democracy with large groups of fundamentally adverse interests. This is why former Yugoslavia has collapsed, Czechoslovakia is split in two, Basque country and Catalonia want to go their own ways as is the Dutch part of Belgium. I can give you more examples on the same theme. If you do a historical survey you will find that true democracies NEVER have compromised themselves with any grave atrocities like genocides directed to their own citizens. Such offences have been carried out by autocracies and theocracies only! The Vatican´s war history is awful. The case of Hitler is perhaps an exception since he came to power through the parliamentary system. But Hitler lost the referendum of 1932 and would not have come to power were it not for the treachery of the conservative leader Franz von Papen. Excited, and probably also bribed, to collaborate with Hitler, he made the Nazi-seizure of power possible. Another credulous politician, Chamberlain, finally let the wolf loose. I think that your voluminous outrage towards my own humble person has to do with something very fundamental of the monotheistic belief, namely its view of man and humanity. As Christians you stick, you have to stick, to the fallen man image as described in the Bible. Or as kairosfocus presents the matter; “we are finite, fallible, morally struggling and too often ill willed or even closed minded and hostile…”. In short, we are by definition sinful and without any options to be righteous without a god. From this it simply follows that all secular systems will collapse! This is also what you tell me, this is the essence of the wolves/sheep allegory! Not surprisingly, I have a more positive, evolutionary, view of humanity. 5th century philosopher and clergyman Pelagius, a heretic according to the church, was right. Man can be a better man and do good works without divine guidance(a very radical standpoint as late as the 19th century)! In the same way as athletes can improve on their physical performance, we are all able to improve on our physical well being and mental performances through our own efforts only. From this altruism is born as pointed out in the Talmud. Christianity has helped many kings and emperors to hold their inhabitants under control. But in the West these kings and emperors are gone from the political arena and the church has therefore successively lost much of its power. This successive loss of power has coincided with a tremendous upswing in almost all conceivable aspects of human life, demonstrating that religion is a bondage to humanity, not its liberation. Elvis4708
Perhaps what Elvis4708 objects to are the very "unalienable rights" and freedoms that our forefathers put in the constitution as being given to us by our creator. These are obviously religious impositions, according to Elvis's philosophy, and only stand in the way of implementing a true morality by majority system. After all, if the majority says that being an atheist, or being a muslim is wrong, why should religion-inspired principles like "personal liberty" and "individual rights" be allowed to supercede the views and wishes of the majority? By what principle would any minority be spared the tyranny and abuses of the majority, if the fundamental principle at play is "morality by majority"? William J Murray
Elvis4709: Why are you now trying to characterize my asking you a few simple questions about your position as "chasing you"? You have not answered the question. You have proposed that religious morality be deposed (in fact, you work towards that end) and democratic morality be imposed. I've asked you why democratic morality should be imposed, and why I - or anyone - should accept that and submit to it. You refuse to answer. I think this is probably because you honestly don't understand the nature of the question, and that it probably produces a cognitive dissonance when you consider it because in order to answer the question, you must reflect upon what is an unconscious, hidden assumption on your part. That assumption - that democracy is the proper tool when it comes to determining moral questions about what is good - has not been properly examined by you in your philosophy. I believe it must be nothing other than an assumption based upon the emotional appeal of the term "democratic" because you can offer no argument for it nor answer simple questions about it. You just expect other people to fall under the emotional appeal of the term and recognize its validity in determining "shoulds". So, when one asks you, "Why democracy?", you can offer no explanation, only reiteration and rhetoric - rhetoric that describes democracy as "modern" and "enlightened", reiteration that says we "must" and we "should", as if that explained why democracy should be our moral guide. These rhetorical, emotional appeals to appealing associations and terminology is nothing but smoke and mirrors hiding an apparently unexamined foundation. You also refuse to meaningfully respond to KF's critique, which informs the following: If the majority votes and decides that all atheists should be executed, then you would be fine with that, and such a law would - in your mind - be moral, thus executing atheists would be a good thing? In other words, you're saying that "what is good" is decided by consensus, and if the consensus is that owning slaves is okay, and that treating women, children and minorities as property is okay, and that euthanizing undesirable is okay, then by definition (majority, consensus = moral) those things are good. That is the consequence of morality by majority, as has been played out over and over in human history. Furthermore, if we assume morality has no teeth other than what is established as law, and laws are created, changed or removed via democratic process in the USA, what is it that you're trying to accomplish by demolishing religious morality? You already have "morality by consensus" when it comes to the law (through democratic representation); do you wish to remove the individual right to believe in whatever legally non-binding moral rules they wish? IOW, if I believe it is morally wrong for the state to criminalize personal use drugs, should I not be able to advocated against those laws just because the majority considers them moral? Or, if the majority holds that religious morality is the proper morality for guiding one's personal life, should you be allowed to advocate against that? I am not "chasing" anything, Elvis. What KF and I are attempting to point out to you (or, more likely, less emotionally entrenched observers) is the socially dangerous, self-contradictory, hypocritical and unexamined nature of the moral philosophy you advocate, that would embrace torturing infants for personal pleasure if that was the consensus. You claim that an "educated" society will never vote in religious morality. Educated how? By whom? Under what guiding moral principle? Your response begs the question of who is doing the educating; how they are doing it, for what end, and according to what standard of curriculum and academic philosophy. However, I'm sure all of this is beyond your capacity to apprehend, since you cannot even answer the simple questions I have put before you, nor adequately frame a response to KF's challenges. Note how you respond to KFs exhaustive and devastating critique:
Democracy is not perfect but presently the best we kan do.
Which is nothing but a reiteration. Best ... by what measure? You have offered no argument or rational support for this claim whatsoever. Democracy is an appealing word. However, it is not the answer to everything. As morality, it is nothing but the tyranny of the masses. However, I doubt you actually wish to live under the tyranny of the majority with no unalienable, individual rights or freedoms whatsoever, which is the logical conclusion of your "morality by majority" system. William J Murray
kairosfocus; No matter what you think of me, I like to read your essays and I´m impressed by your uncompromising conviction. I will read your last essay more carefully and come back to you if I find anything not already discussed. Elvis4708
Elvis: Pardon, but you seem to have forgotten that you threw the first punch. "He hit back first" -- the moral equivalency tactic you just resorted to -- is not good enough. Especially, when the focus of of my reply is to point you back to the issues you have left unanswered in your haste to create a cloud of polarisation behind which to escape. In addition, you have failed to observe the significance of my pointing to the way that Locke in his second treatise on Civil Govt, c 1690, set about laying the basis for what would become modern liberty and democracy: by appealing to "the judicious [Anglican Canon Richard] Hooker" in his discussion of the way that the Judaeo-Christian Golden Rule, grounded in our having been equally made in Go's image and endowed by him with value, worth and rights, leads to the premise of mutual benevolence and fairness in the community. Thus grounding a civil order that addresses that. Your consistent failure to address substance, while trying to polarise the atmosphere, speaks volumes, and none of it to your good. In your onward talking points to WJM, you reveal an adherence to the religious theocracy slur, which again speaks further volumes that further underscore the point. For record, let me again cite the pivotal point in the 2nd essay by Locke, Ch 2 sect 5:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80]
That is what theism at full bore from historically pivotal documents, has to say on the grounding of modern liberty and democracy in theistic, Judaeo-Christian soil. With an anchorage in man being understood as made in the image of God. All you have done in reply is to appeal to anti-religious bigotry and hostility (all, duly reinforced by one-sided litanies of the real and imagined sins of Christendom that fails to address the real problems of power: power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely -- spoken by a Christian historian BTW; and reflecting the deeper problem that we are finite, fallible, morally struggling and too often ill willed or even closed minded and hostile . . . ), conflating quite distinct systems of thought and traditions, which any reasonably informed person will realise will differ considerably. E.g. consider Jesus' teaching that one should give to Caesar what is his, and to God what is his, which holds in a context where Caesar is viewed as God's servant to do us good by upholding and defending the civil peace of justice -- which BTW historically raised the issue of one who turns tyrant by usurpation, corruption, seizure or invasion and the right of the people under God to choose lower magistrates or representatives to stand up to such in their name. Thus was grounded the right of reformation and in the last resort revolution that is to be found in the US DOI of 1776, 2nd paragraph. As in the reformation's classic double covenant view of nationhood and government under God. And that does not even begin to touch on the challenge of the IS-OUGHT gap and the implication that the only place where a grounding IS that can objectively and soundly support OUGHT comes into a worldview is its foundations. Wherein, the only serious candidate is the inherently good God our Creator, who has endowed us with dignity and rights. Absent that, it is a seriously arguable point that we end up in the morass of one species or another of might and manipulation make 'right.' It is in that context that I have to take very seriously your consistent ducking and diversion from the problem of democracy potentially coming down to three wolves and two sheep voting on what is for lunch. That is, there is a serious problem of democracy without an adequate foundation of rights and liberty, justice and fairness, becoming mob rule. Which BTW, was a serious concern of the founders of modern democracy. That is the context for the sort of provisions for God as guardian of the individual and his or her rights that we see for instance reflected in that same 2nd para of the US DOI. We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal and that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights . . . And there is a lot more relevant history, key documents and related issues that you don't seem to be privy to. I suggest you try reading here on in context as a 101 - level beginning. I think that may help break the case-structure and talking point subroutines you seem to have been programmed with, the first phase of deprogramming. And, you better believe that this is what you are coming across as a case of to someone with a fair degree of experience on that subject, with marxists and with manipulative sects alike. KF kairosfocus
cairosfocus; 1. Have you thought about your own tone? 2. Democracy is not perfect but presently the best we kan do. Murray; 1. Honestly, I don´t understand why you are chasing me with your question. Shouldn´t my writings already delivered be enough? 2. If a majority of citizens REALLY wants to be ruled by gods(priest/imams/rabbis) - so be it. This will never happen in an educated society. Elvis4708
Kantian Naturalist
Our knowledge of the past, for it to count as knowledge to us, must conform to our epistemic and semantic norms. (I trust that it’s clear why that’s vacuously true.)
A semantic norm,” which is a mere social construct, cannot serve as the basis for rational thought. Whatever is socially constructed on Monday can be socially deconstructed on Tuesday and socially reconstructed on Wednesday. The Laws of Identity and Non-Contradiction are not like that. Both preceded the advent of language and are not, therefore dependent on it. Our norms do not inform reason’s rules; reason’s rules inform our norms. They were not invented, they were discovered. That is why I can say with apodictic certainty that Jupiter cannot now, never could, or never will exist and not exist at the same time. Because you reject reason's rules, you are forced to equivocate on the matter. With your formulation, which is a time-sensitive social construct, Jupiter became subject to the “principle” of Non-Contradiction only when social norms declared it to be so.
I’m saying that objects do not constitute the real-in-itself. (Better: I’m intrigued by that possibility and I’m exploring it here, by seeing how that possibility fares in reasoned dialogue with someone who disagrees with it.)
I am not clear on why you think that the planet Jupiter is not real.
So my suggestion is that while we should reject Kantian transcendental idealism (and Putnam’s internal realism), and affirm that our cognitive experience does make contact with things-in-themselves, what the things are, what properties they have, and so on is influenced (but not, of course, determined) by the perceptual and conceptual capacities that the organism brings to the table.
Jupiter’s real nature, its real properties, and its real location with respect to other planets in the solar system are not even remotely influenced by anyone’s conceptual capacities.
The question then becomes, what must the things-in-themselves be, in order to be both indeterminate and determinable? And my answer is: processes. Processes ‘become’ objects by virtue how they are perceived and interpreted by organisms, in accord with the vital needs and interests of the organism.
Jupiter did not come into existence as a response to human needs and interests. In keeping with that same point, its reality is not a function of anyone’s conceptual framework. In order to understand why your formulation doesn’t work, you need only take the first step required for any rational interaction: Define your terms (“process” and “thing”) and you will readily understand why one cannot “become” the other. While you are at it, do the same thing with the words “indeterminate” and “determinable.” StephenB
Reminds me of Alan Fox: "Freedom of expression is everything." "Except in the science class," I replied. Mung
F/N 2: Others may wonder if there may be a justification for standing in a specific monotheistic tradition. If so, I point them here on in context. The pivotal issue is, as always, what is true and what is therefore right. KF kairosfocus
F/N: E, I just had a moment to pause, and considered whether I should spend the time to make a more extensive point by point reply. The hostility in your tone and the sort of stereotyping, broad-brush dismissiveness, militate against that. What you come across as, is reacting to try to shut up those who have pointed out the key gaps in your thought. Plainly, you have no grounds for answering to the issue of three wolves and two sheep voting on what is for lunch, which exposes the fatal flaw in the "tyranny of the 51%" cultural relativism. Just remember, slaves were a MINORITY in the USA, and the issue was to recognise their dignity. As for your rat is a pig is a dog is a boy point, all I will say is that -- when the talking point game is over -- where it has been tried it ended in undermining the boy [as in see what is happening with the 55 millions dead of abortions since 1973 . . . ], and making him into a target for the more powerful to prey on. You seem to have a hostility to the idea of a real, inherently good, Creator God who has created us as creatures in his image capable of loving and so of responsible choice. It seems as well that you do not want to face the implications of the point that it is self evident that it is wrong to kidnap, torture, rape and murder a young child for pleasure and profit through making a snuff video and have tried to put up a cloud of polarising talking points to make an escape behind. That speaks volumes about what you advocate and none of it good. kairosfocus
Elvis4708: Apparently, you are unwilling or unable to answer my question "Why should I submit to democratic morality" with anything other than simply offering more assertions that I must, or that I should. Why should I care what is "acceptable" to a democratic society? Why should i care what a "modern" society needs? Why should I submit to democratic laws? Saying I should submit to democratic morals because other moral systems are not democratic, and because your proposal is ... well .. democratic ... is self-referential nonsense. Why should I care about democratic principles whatsoever, regardless of if we are talking about laws, morals, or anything else? Also, if the majority of a population wishes for morality to be parsed via religion, what democratic value (which you are promulgating here) gives you the authority to put an end to the religion-base morality that the majority of people prefer? William J Murray
Elvis: Kindly pause and look at the tone you just used. Ask yourself, whether this exemplifies tolerance or strident dismissiveness. Please note, for now, that once one addresses things that claim something to be a real state of affairs, one is automatically excluding alternatives as not being so: 2 + 3 = 5 excludes an infinite number of alternative answers, but that is not viewed as being intolerant. I find that, too often, the "tolerance" talking point is usually only rhetorically useful to polarise and stigmatise views that stress the importance of truth and right beyond mere opinion and majority views -- three wolves and two sheep voting on what's for lunch, not to seriously discuss and compare worldviews. As to Christians unjustifiably claiming the Golden Rule, I think a fairer reading would be that Jesus and Paul -- who stated the forms of the GR found in the NT -- both cited and implicitly acknowledged Moshe, the founder of Judaism as we know it. When I saw the discussion in C S Lewis' Mere Christianity, his emphasis was that this was a universal principle of benevolence, and when I looked at how Locke sought to ground liberty and justice in civil society, he did so by citing Hooker, an Anglican theologian, who argued thusly:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80]
It seems, then that you need to ask rather, what is it that gives my fellow human beings a fundamental equality and moral worth that requires me to treat them as I would wish to be treated. The Judaeo-Christian, theistic answer, is that they are made just as I am in the image of God and are endowed by our common Creator with unalienable rights. On non-theistic (including non Deistic . . . cf. the author I just alluded to) grounds -- especially those of evolutionary materialist scientism, kindly justify such rights and principles of mutual benevolence. KF kairosfocus
Murray 481, kairosfocus 482, JWTruthInLove 484; Monotheism is basically intolerant. Monotheists think their god is the only one and that they have the moral, divine given, right to fight other believers. This is absolutely unacceptable in all democratic societies. In principle, moral codes must have their roots among ordinary people, not among a couple of selfappointed interpreters of the divine will. The injunction to kill one´s own son to demonstrate belief in Yahweh is NOT such a code. Nor is the Vatican´s and many (US) churches´view that the conception is God´s will and therefore always must be protected. Euthanasia is of course a sin. Society is changing and new morality issues arise in an eternal process. Today, for example, we are talking about global overpopulation, scarcity of important resources, environmental destruction and wild animal extermination. According to the Bible man is the master of all animals and all plants and is free to do what he wishes with them. What kind of moral is that? A modern society needs a moral code system that develops over time and monotheism, with its once-and-for-all given codes, cannot provide it. It is best achieved by profane education, the free word and democracy. Lawmaking in a democratically elected parliament is the center of the moral code genereting process. Christianity propagates "the Golden Rule" as were it an own invention - which is not true. The rule has been taken, word by word, from a man-made(!)chinese philosophy named "legalism". Probably it was imported to Palestine once the Silk Road had been firmly established. Elvis4708
In re: StephenB @ 491:
If, as you argue, the “principle” of Non-Contradiction was semantically “constituted,” then it did not exist prior to the advent of language. Under the circumstances, there would have been a time when Jupiter was not subject to the law—a time when it could have existed and not existed at the same time. Is that your position?
Epistemologically and semantically, it makes no sense for us to assert, "prior to the evolution of linguistic norms, things in themselves did not conform to those norms". For it still us, with the linguistic norms that we do in fact have, who would making such an assertion. Our knowledge of the past, for it to count as knowledge to us, must conform to our epistemic and semantic norms. (I trust that it's clear why that's vacuously true.)
If, as you acknowledge, Jupiter is subject to the Law of Identity, it is hard to understand why you would also argue that “reality” is not subject to that same law. Are you saying that Jupiter is not part of reality? Or, are you saying that some aspects of reality are subject to reason’s rules while others are not? By what rational standard do you make that determination?
I'm saying that objects do not constitute the real-in-itself. (Better: I'm intrigued by that possibility and I'm exploring it here, by seeing how that possibility fares in reasoned dialogue with someone who disagrees with it.) As to my argument for this view: first, it can be established by transcendental reflection that if we did not actually have cognitive access to things in themselves with at least some minimally detectable order and regularity, we could not have the kinds of self-conscious thoughts that we do in fact have. But what is the nature of those things? A bit of attention to the diversity of animal perceptual and conceptual systems indicates that what kinds of objects are disclosed in experience depends strongly on what an animal is able to notice, what kinds of stimuli it is able to detect, and so on. Likewise, the diversity of human conceptual systems strongly suggests that there is no one single right way to describe the sorts of objects that there are. So my suggestion is that while we should reject Kantian transcendental idealism (and Putnam's internal realism), and affirm that our cognitive experience does make contact with things-in-themselves, what the things are, what properties they have, and so on is influenced (but not, of course, determined) by the perceptual and conceptual capacities that the organism brings to the table. The question then becomes, what must the things-in-themselves be, in order to be both indeterminate and determinable? And my answer is: processes. Processes 'become' objects by virtue how they are perceived and interpreted by organisms, in accord with the vital needs and interests of the organism. Each kind of organism has its own 'world' -- and yet there is only one world. (As Gilbert Harman once said, "I'd like to make a distinction here, but I can't think of one.") Kantian Naturalist
Kantian Naturalist
“Jupiter” is a term in the vocabulary of objects.---where the PNC is a constitutive rule of discourse about objects. So long as we’re talking about objects, the PNC applies.
If, as you argue, the “principle” of Non-Contradiction was semantically “constituted,” then it did not exist prior to the advent of language. Under the circumstances, there would have been a time when Jupiter was not subject to the law—a time when it could have existed and not existed at the same time. Is that your position? If, as you acknowledge, Jupiter is subject to the Law of Identity, it is hard to understand why you would also argue that “reality” is not subject to that same law. Are you saying that Jupiter is not part of reality? Or, are you saying that some aspects of reality are subject to reason’s rules while others are not? By what rational standard do you make that determination? StephenB
Here's how to do a shorter link to amazon products: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0870743910 "After a rather tortuous and turgid discussion..." Sounds like it's right up my alley! NOT. :) Mung
Off-topic: I just had brought to my attention: The Divine Good: Modern Moral Theory and the Necessity of God by Frank Gamwell. Gamwell seems to argue that any conception of goodness-in-community must be grounded in the nature of God -- hence I'm bringing it to your attention. Kantian Naturalist
Jupiter is an object.
But what is an object?
2. a thing, person, or matter to which thought or action is directed
Mung
I'm not sure that atheism is even coherent, much less rationally justifiable. Mung
when I asked you earlier if Jupiter can exist and not exist at the same time and in the same way, you agreed that this cannot be the case, presumably because reality DOES conform to those laws. Can you explain this apparent inconsistency?
On my view, Jupiter conforms to the principle of non-contradiction because it is an object. I treat as necessarily equivalent: Jupiter is an object. and "Jupiter" is a term in the vocabulary of objects. where the PNC is a constitutive rule of discourse about objects. So long as we're talking about objects, the PNC applies. (Conversely, the reason why Buddhist logic rejects the PNC is because Buddhist metaphysics rejects objects.) The reason why I think my overall position is consistent is because I think of reality as consisting of determinable processes rather than of determinate objects. I call this position "weak metaphysical realism," in contrast with Hilary Putnam's contrast between "metaphysical realism" (everything is fully determinate, and we just have to find the right 'map' or 'framework' that fits it) and "internal realism" (things are determinate only with regards to some conceptual map or framework). I agree with Putnam that determinacy is relative to a conceptual framework, but unlike Putnam, I think that we really are in touch with reality-in-itself which is indeterminate but determinable. [NB: here I am using "determinate" to mean "having clearly specifiable spatio-temporal location and describable properties".] Kantian Naturalist
Kantian Naturalist:
In re: StephenB 464, since I already answered that exact question earlier, I leave it to you to ask me further questions based on my previous response.
On the one hand, you say (@455) that reality does NOT necessarily conform to reason's rules (Law of Identity, Causality, Excluded Middle, Non-Contradiction etc). By that standard, the status of Jupiter's existence would not be subject to those rules (laws). You have advanced this position on many occasions. On the other hand, when I asked you earlier if Jupiter can exist and not exist at the same time and in the same way, you agreed that this cannot be the case, presumably because reality DOES conform to those laws. Can you explain this apparent inconsistency? StephenB
@Elvis4708: Can you provide a working example of a society which votes on moral principles? JWTruthInLove
Now if we could just talk them into believing they are not really hungry... Mung
WJM & E: Three wolves and two sheep are voting on what's for lunch . . . maybe, that will help settle context in light of oppressed, abused or enslaved minorities. Which, as I noted, can include a minority of "1%" of golden egg-laying geese. KF kairosfocus
Elvis4708: Why would not understanding the relevance prevent you from answering a simple question? You said you are pursuing the end of religion-based morality and advocating a democracy-based "voting" system of what is considered moral. Okay, fine. Other people advocate religion-based morality. Still other people advocate secular humanism as the moral system we should adhere to. Some people advocate hedonism. Obviously, you are not submitting to religion-based morality, which is largely the norm, and are advocating that people submit to (obey) democracy based morality instead. I'm asking you: why should I - or anyone - submit to democracy based morality, and not religion-based morality (or any other basis for morality). Why "democracy" based in particular? William J Murray
Murray, 459; Why you should submit...? I don´t understand the relevance of this question. What are you after? Elvis4708
LT: An even more pivotal text in Daniel is 7:9 - 14, which seems to have featured at Jesus' hearing before Sanhedrin members, and in the death of Stephen in Ac 7. Just a note, this is not the place for a debate on Bible Study or exegesis. I do recommend to interested parties, The Word software with relevant support modules. On recent translations I have gravitated to the ESV and NET, as they are open source, no limits on citation. The collection of texts at Bible Gateway is good (love the AMP] and Blue Letter Bible is also good. Some may find my incomplete draft course for sampler purposes, here on, helpful. Note U1 on foundations, U2 on worldview issues, and U11 on matters relevant to eschatology. There is also a resources page. KF kairosfocus
Well Elvis, that's the beauty of science! Instead of proclaiming that Theism is the way it is, I actually provided evidence that Deism is grossly insufficient to account for the massive levels of integrated information we find in life, where you, well you merely asserted that you have faith in doubting Theism and dismissed the evidence as if it did not matter. Religion driving science once again! Who'd a thunk! Go figure! bornagain77
Alan, I've started to examine Daniel, per your question here in #334, over at my blog, http://skepticink.com/atheistintermarried/2013/01/14/looking-at-biblical-prophecy-daniel-920-27. Your comments are welcome, as are those of anyone interested. LarTanner
bornagain77, comments 363, 364 It´s a very comprehensive – and esoteric – reasoning you open up to with your comments. I think I´ve got your points but I´m very skeptical of the way you and your ID-friends stretch and twist scientific results. “Front loading” for example; in my opinion you cannot dismiss a deistic creator just because preprogramming of evolution with deterministic results is not possible. Another conclusion is that there is/was a deistic creator but a very weak one because it had not full control of its own acts. And using a stochastic creation-program as “proof” of divine providence seems to me hopelessly far-fetched. I think that a general problem with you theists is that you can in no way accept genuine uncertainties in your worldview. Uncertainties, risks, chance, probabilities etc are always in one way or the other interpreted as acts by God. It is easy to understand why you are so rigid, in fact locked up, at this point. The acceptance of genuine uncertainty competing with God is simply no option in monotheistic theology. Genuine uncertainty is a rivaling god! Elvis4708
Of somewhat related note: In this following video, Dr. Richards and Dr. Gonzalez reveal that the universe is ‘suspiciously set up’ for scientific discovery: Privileged Planet – Observability/Measurably Correlation – Gonzalez and Richards – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5424431 The very conditions that make Earth hospitable to intelligent life also make it well suited to viewing and analyzing the universe as a whole. - Jay Richards Extreme Fine Tuning of Light, and Atmosphere, for Life and Scientific Discovery - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/7715887/ Fine Tuning Of Light to the Atmosphere, to Biological Life, and to Water - graphs http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYmaSrBPNEmGZGM4ejY3d3pfMTljaGh4MmdnOQ Michael Denton: Remarkable Coincidences in Photosynthesis - podcast http://www.idthefuture.com/2012/09/michael_denton_remarkable_coin.html This following videos are in the same line of thought as the preceding videos: We Live At The Right Time In Cosmic History – Hugh Ross – video http://vimeo.com/31940671 Hugh Ross - The Anthropic Principle and Anthropic Inequality - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/8494065 bornagain77
KN, all of your incoherent nonsense aside, I have a very specific 'scientific' problem for you, using any naturalistic metaphysics that you want as a starting presupposition, please coherently explain, using empirical evidence, quantum mechanics and general relativity, the centrality we witness for ourselves within the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR): Planck satellite unveils the Universe -- now and then (w/ Video showing the mapping of the 'sphere' of the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation with the satellite) - 2010 http://phys.org/news197534140.html#nRlv Picture of CMBR https://webspace.utexas.edu/reyesr/SolarSystem/cmbr.jpg The Known Universe by AMNH – video - (please note the 'centrality' of the Earth in the universe in the video) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jymDn0W6U Proverbs 8:26-27 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, or the primeval dust of the world. When He prepared the heavens, I was there, when He drew a circle on the face of the deep, The Galileo Affair and the true "Center of the Universe" https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BHAcvrc913SgnPcDohwkPnN4kMJ9EDX-JJSkjc4AXmA/edit bornagain77
KN, all of your incoherent nonsense aside, I have a very specific 'scientific' problem for you, using any naturalistic metaphysics that you want as a starting presupposition, please coherently explain, using empirical evidence, quantum mechanics and general relativity, the centrality we witness for ourselves within the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR): Planck satellite unveils the Universe -- now and then (w/ Video showing the mapping of the 'sphere' of the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation with the satellite) - 2010 http://phys.org/news197534140.html#nRlv Picture of CMBR https://webspace.utexas.edu/reyesr/SolarSystem/cmbr.jpg The Known Universe by AMNH – video - (please note the 'centrality' of the Earth in the universe in the video) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jymDn0W6U Proverbs 8:26-27 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, or the primeval dust of the world. When He prepared the heavens, I was there, when He drew a circle on the face of the deep, The Galileo Affair and the true "Center of the Universe" https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BHAcvrc913SgnPcDohwkPnN4kMJ9EDX-JJSkjc4AXmA/edit Of somewhat related note: In this following video, Dr. Richards and Dr. Gonzalez reveal that the universe is ‘suspiciously set up’ for scientific discovery: Privileged Planet – Observability/Measurably Correlation – Gonzalez and Richards – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5424431 The very conditions that make Earth hospitable to intelligent life also make it well suited to viewing and analyzing the universe as a whole. - Jay Richards Extreme Fine Tuning of Light, and Atmosphere, for Life and Scientific Discovery - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/7715887/ Fine Tuning Of Light to the Atmosphere, to Biological Life, and to Water - graphs http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYmaSrBPNEmGZGM4ejY3d3pfMTljaGh4MmdnOQ Michael Denton: Remarkable Coincidences in Photosynthesis - podcast http://www.idthefuture.com/2012/09/michael_denton_remarkable_coin.html This following videos are in the same line of thought as the preceding videos: We Live At The Right Time In Cosmic History – Hugh Ross – video http://vimeo.com/31940671 Hugh Ross - The Anthropic Principle and Anthropic Inequality - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/8494065 bornagain77
I managed to find a nice little article, "The Metaphysics of Quantum Mechanics" by Craig Callender. (He's a professor of philosophy of physics at UCSD. I'd link to his site, but it seems to be down at the moment.) Anywhere, here's the last paragraph of his article:
Interestingly, the many interpretations of quantum mechanics illustrate why the line between metaphysics and physics is sometimes blurry. Given current technology, there is no way to experimentally decide between, say, a Wignerian collapse theory ("human consciousness causes collapse") and one or more versions of GRW ("reaching a threshold of particle number in the system makes collapse likely"). But in principle these theories do issue different predictions for some observables. In this sense, the metaphysics of today may be the physics of tomorrow. In addition, even before any crucial experiment is performed—and it is not clear that there ever will be such between certain pairs of interpretations—we see that science can have a real bearing on these metaphysical disputes. Scientists value more than good predictions. They also prize simplicity, unification, consilience and other theoretical virtues. Even if there is no test between two given interpretations, there may be good reasons to adopt one over another. One interpretation may possess a symmetry others do not, resolve a problem others cannot, or uniquely extend to a promising new theory (say, some version of quantum gravity).
Kantian Naturalist
Do you actually have specific objections to my "word salad"? Or is it just incoherent nonsense to you? From what I can tell, you haven't presented anything that is "clear unambiguous evidence for mind preceding material reality in quantum mechanics". What's you've presented is strongly indicative of the claim that quantum mechanics is committed to non-local realism, i.e. we have to give up on locality, and we have to give up on mere instrumentalist interpretations of quantum mechanics. I can see how that might lend some support to an emanationist metaphysics, but frankly, it looks pretty suggestive to me, and hardly the smoking gun you make it out to be. I don't think we have any idea what the metaphysics of quantum mechanics are really going to turn out to be. I think the theory itself is in too much turmoil for there to really be much agreement on what the theory commits us, metaphysically speaking. Kantian Naturalist
and: On the reality of the quantum state - Matthew F. Pusey, Jonathan Barrett & Terry Rudolph - May 2012 Abstract: Quantum states are the key mathematical objects in quantum theory. It is therefore surprising that physicists have been unable to agree on what a quantum state truly represents. One possibility is that a pure quantum state corresponds directly to reality. However, there is a long history of suggestions that a quantum state (even a pure state) represents only knowledge or information about some aspect of reality. Here we show that any model in which a quantum state represents mere information about an underlying physical state of the system, and in which systems that are prepared independently have independent physical states, must make predictions that contradict those of quantum theory. http://www.nature.com/nphys/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nphys2309.html bornagain77
also in response to Ghirardi–Rimini–Weber theory: Quantum Theory's 'Wavefunction' Found to Be Real Physical Entity: Scientific American - November 2011 Excerpt: Action at a distance occurs when pairs of quantum particles interact in such a way that they become entangled. But the new paper, by a trio of physicists led by Matthew Pusey at Imperial College London, presents a theorem showing that if a quantum wavefunction were purely a statistical tool, then even quantum states that are unconnected across space and time would be able to communicate with each other. As that seems very unlikely to be true, the researchers conclude that the wavefunction must be physically real after all.,,, "This strips away obscurity and shows you can't have an interpretation of a quantum state as probabilistic," he says. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=quantum-theorys-wavefunction bornagain77
notes: Can quantum theory be improved? - July 23, 2012 Excerpt: However, in the new paper, the physicists have experimentally demonstrated that there cannot exist any alternative theory that increases the predictive probability of quantum theory by more than 0.165, with the only assumption being that measurement (conscious observation) parameters can be chosen independently (free will assumption) of the other parameters of the theory.,,, ,, the experimental results provide the tightest constraints yet on alternatives to quantum theory. The findings imply that quantum theory is close to optimal in terms of its predictive power, even when the predictions are completely random. http://phys.org/news/2012-07-quantum-theory.html Particle and Wave-Like Behavior of Light Measured Simultaneously (Nov. 1, 2012) Excerpt: Dr Peruzzo, Research Fellow at the Centre for Quantum Photonics, said: "The measurement apparatus detected strong nonlocality, which certified that the photon behaved simultaneously as a wave and a particle in our experiment. This represents a strong refutation of models in which the photon is either a wave or a particle." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121101141107.htm bornagain77
KN, your word salad response to the clear evidence facing you in quantum mechanics is much like your word salad response to the evidence facing you in biology. We have clear unambiguous evidence for mind preceding material reality in quantum mechanics, and you have no coherent mechanism to propose to deal with it, just as you have no coherent mechanism to deal with the functional information we find in life (since you reject both reductive materialism and mind),,, Don't you think tis time for you to wake up and smell the coffee instead of playing such shallow self deceptive head games??? Chris Tomlin - Awake My Soul (with Lecrae) [Official Lyric Video] http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=0902E1NU bornagain77
KN, Quantum physics says goodbye to reality - Apr 20, 2007 Excerpt: They found that, just as in the realizations of Bell's thought experiment, Leggett's inequality is violated – thus stressing the quantum-mechanical assertion that reality does not exist when we're not observing it. "Our study shows that 'just' giving up the concept of locality would not be enough to obtain a more complete description of quantum mechanics," Aspelmeyer told Physics Web. "You would also have to give up certain intuitive features of realism." http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/27640 Looking Beyond Space and Time to Cope With Quantum Theory – (Oct. 28, 2012) Excerpt: To derive their inequality, which sets up a measurement of entanglement between four particles, the researchers considered what behaviours are possible for four particles that are connected by influences that stay hidden and that travel at some arbitrary finite speed. Mathematically (and mind-bogglingly), these constraints define an 80-dimensional object. The testable hidden influence inequality is the boundary of the shadow this 80-dimensional shape casts in 44 dimensions. The researchers showed that quantum predictions can lie outside this boundary, which means they are going against one of the assumptions. Outside the boundary, either the influences can’t stay hidden, or they must have infinite speed.,,, The remaining option is to accept that (quantum) influences must be infinitely fast,,, “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” says Nicolas Gisin, Professor at the University of Geneva, Switzerland,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121028142217.htm bornagain77
In re: bornagain77 @ 457, the argument seem valid but I do not think it is sound, since I take issue with the first premise. That is, I don't see why consciousness must be epiphenomenal if it is not more fundamental than matter. Why couldn't consciousness be both an emergent phenomenon and causally efficacious? That alternative would need to be examined and rejected in order to establish the dichotomy assumed in the first premise. Moreover, it's really not clear to me that "consciousness first" interpretations of quantum mechanics is really better, empirically or metaphysically, than interpretations that do not give consciousness priority. There are, after all, "no collapse" interpretations (the wave-function does not collapse) as well as interpretations where the collapse is not explained in terms of consciousness (e.g. Ghirardi–Rimini–Weber theory). Apart from specific issues in interpretations of quantum mechanics, "consciousness first" interpretations tend to be grounded in an instrumentalist conception of scientific theories, and I find that instrumentalism has pretty serious problems as a view of scientific theories generally, as explored quite thoroughly by the discussions about scientific realism. In re: StephenB 464, since I already answered that exact question earlier, I leave it to you to ask me further questions based on my previous response. Kantian Naturalist
Kantian Naturalist
But that doesn’t require that the fundamental structure of reality itself conforms to those principles [right reason] or that “mind” exist prior to “matter”.”
So, for you, the fundamental structure of reality doesn't conform to the Laws of Identity and Causality? Are you now saying that Jupiter can, indeed, exist and not exist at the same time? StephenB
What Does The World Look Like Without Christianity? - Larry Taunton - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs_Enln-E2A Larry Taunton - The Grace Effect - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZxu7wJYOcc The Grace Effect - book http://www.amazon.com/Grace-Effect-Reverse-Corruption-Unbelief/dp/1595554408 From Josh McDowell, Evidence for Christianity, in giving examples of the influence of Jesus Christ cites many examples. Here are just a few: 1. Hospitals 2. Universities 3. Literacy and education for the masses 4. Representative government 5. Separation of political powers 6. Civil liberties 7. Abolition of slavery 8. Modern science 9. The elevation of the common man 10. High regard for human life bornagain77
PS: Watch the short vid just above please and address the utilitarian challenge on 90% oppressing 10% to gain benefits [and which BTW is also directly relevant to the game of blaming "the 1%" and seeking to impose ever increasingly disproportionate burdens, which can easily end up driving out especially small scale innovative entrepreneurship to the ultimate harm of all but few will see that in time to avert it, cf my comment on a historical case here], then ponder the problem of democracy coming down to three wolves and two sheep voting on what is for lunch. kairosfocus
E: Please LOOK at what you did above, and ask you what makes you itch to react like that. Especially, to someone who long since took time to address the issue of the sins of Christendom [remember, my ancestors were oppressed due to one of the major, longstanding sins of humanity, reformed through the decades long work of men who (having gone through Christian revival and being in a position where for the first time there was a decent shot to use parliament to do this) stood up, Bible in hand to say --- this is wrong, starting with the trade], and to highlight that the pivotal issue is that we all face being finite, fallible, morally struggling and too often ill willed. That looks extraordinarily like, you have a loaded, prejudicial stereotype that has been indoctrinated into you and triggers a program to issue a put-down whenever the "threat" of right wing creationist theocracy -- as you seem to have been programmed to project -- seems to appear before you. If I had heard from you a balanced appraisal that for instance would have acknowledged the significance of the specifically Christian contribution to the rise of liberty and democratic self-government under God, I would have made a different response. But you came out with the same, well known pattern of turnabout talking points. That game only tells me you are pushing the typical false narratives. Please, stop and think again. KF kairosfocus
Elvis you claim: "I believe in man and that sound and educated people can define their own moral codes in a democratic order. We are not there yet in all corners of the world but hopefully we will be." Man can be like God ehh Elvis, knowing good and evil??? Where have I heard that line before??? Stephen Meyer - Morality Presupposes Theism (1 of 4) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSpdh1b0X_M Objective Morality (1 of 5) - William Lane Craig - video playlist http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sPn_cIh_Cg&feature=bf_prev&list=PL3DBE77BB622A22F7 bornagain77
Elvis4708: I didn't ask you to reiterate what you believe; I asked you why I should submit to democratic determination of moral rules. William J Murray
F/N: It may be useful to view this, on founding morality. KF kairosfocus
KN, you claim:
"But that doesn’t require that the fundamental structure of reality itself conforms to those principles or that “mind” exist prior to “matter”."
And yet, as far as empirical evidence is concerned, we are warranted to believe that mind precedes "matter":
the argument for God from consciousness can be framed like this: 1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. Three intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, Leggett’s Inequalities): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G_Fi50ljF5w_XyJHfmSIZsOcPFhgoAZ3PRc_ktY8cFo/edit Logical Proofs of Infinite External Consciousness - January 18, 2012 Excerpt: (Proof # 2) If you believe in the theory of Quantum Mechanics, then you believe that conscious observation must be present to collapse a wave function. If consciousness did not exist prior to matter coming into existence, then it is impossible that matter could ever come into existence. Additionally, this rules out the possibility that consciousness is the result of quantum mechanical processes. Either consciousness existed before matter or QM is wrong, one or the other is indisputably true. http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/01/18/logical-proofs-of-infinite-external-consciousness/
Thus KN, you are obviously a smart fellow, so why all the word games? You clearly have no basis in empirical science, as you seemed to claim that you had, and yet you waste thousands of words acting like you have a basis in reality to make your argument. bornagain77
kairosfocus; 1. I´m somewhat astonished by your allegation of my not so balanced and nuanced view. Haven´t you heard or read worse? I at least accept a possible creator (of unknown nature) which most of my anti-religious friends don´t. Most of them are inspired by Richard Dawkins who really is a hard-skinned atheist. 2. I have pondered on these matters for several years and I feel quite comfortable with my position. Murray; I believe in man and that sound and educated people can define their own moral codes in a democratic order. We are not there yet in all corners of the world but hopefully we will be. Elvis4708
I wouldn't call it a concession on my part -- I thought I'd been pretty explicit in my commitment to anti-foundationalism! The bit about the symbol of the ouroboros is there to give some metaphorical expression to my particular version of anti-foundationalism. Of course there are grounds -- epistemic norms or principles -- that are discovered through transcendental reflection on our cognitive experience. And these principles regulate successful empirical inquiry into nature, effective moral deliberation, and so on. But that doesn't require that the fundamental structure of reality itself conforms to those principles or that "mind" exist prior to "matter". Kantian Naturalist
PS: And, of course -- as BA 77 highlights -- the problem of actually grounding adequate reliability of mind, consciousness and reason as well as morals (beyond might and manipulation make 'right') lies assumed rather than addressed from the baseline of the chimp like creatures some 6 MYA. Remember WJM's thesis in the OP. kairosfocus
KN: Pardon an in brief. First principles of right reason are necessary as foundations, starting with ability to recognise identity and mark distinctions. Next, you just argued for circles of discussion, i.e. coherence or dominance in circles. That is back to the raft game and skirting the issue of foundations and the need for overall coherence and grounding. In short, it looks like a disguised concession. KF kairosfocus
KN claims: "Another question is, “how did it come about that we have the sorts of capacities and incapacities that we have?”,, following through on the,, question yields an naturalistic explanation of how our cognitive capacities came into being in the first place." "The “ouroboros moment” arises when we realize that we can construct an empirically-grounded explanation for our capacity to construct empirically-grounded explanations." And this 'naturalistic empirically-grounded explanation' is what exactly for our cognitive capacities? bornagain77
I should re-phrase my attitude towards comprehensive metaphysical systems (CMSs). I enjoy figuring out a CMS works, I have very definite views about which CMSs are more plausible, coherent, and powerful than others, and I share the conviction that we all have a loosely connected body of implicit metaphysical commitments. Making them explicit, organizing them in relation to one another, and setting it in relation to other CMSs are all part of the trade of the practicing metaphysician. The main reason I enjoy the discussions I have here at Uncommon Descent is because I believe that a CMS is made better by taking seriously criticisms (and critics) of that system. In previous discussions we've talked about "the raft" metaphor for knowledge, and while I do like Neurath's image, it's not the one I would chose for myself. Rather, my metaphor is the ouroboros, the snake that devours itself. Here's why that symbol speaks to me. We could begin with listing some very basic facts of human cognitive experience (e.g. Royce's "error exists"), and organize those in order to figure out what basic kinds of cognitive experience we have. My own preference here is to think about different kinds of discourse that we have: empirical discourse, mathematical discourse, moral discourse, aesthetic discourse, semantic discourse, modal discourse, etc. Each kind of discourse is constituted by its own rules which provide criteria for what assertions can count as objective within that discourse. Then we engage in 'transcendental reflection': we describe the basic capacities and incapacities that must be realized in order for us to have these kinds of discourses and correlated experiences. That much is recognizably Kantian. In my own thinking, which is deeply indebted to Kant but not orthodox Kantianism, I would say that our discourses and correlated experiences are grounded in two kinds of capacities: the capacities of embodiment and of sociality. (The emphasis on sociality traces the line of thought from Kant through Hegel to Dewey and contemporary pragmatists like Robert Brandom; the emphasis on embodiment traces the line of thought from Kant through Schelling to Bergson and Merleau-Ponty.) From the transcendental level, two different kinds of questions could be posed. One question is, "how do these capacities and incapacities explicate our ability to construct empirical explanations of how things stand in the world?" Another question is, "how did it come about that we have the sorts of capacities and incapacities that we have?" Following through on the first question yields an account of how sciences is possible; following through on the second question yields an naturalistic explanation of how our cognitive capacities came into being in the first place. (Kant, from what I can tell, did not think it made sense to pose the second question, whereas I think it does.) The "ouroboros moment" arises when we realize that we can construct an empirically-grounded explanation for our capacity to construct empirically-grounded explanations. Kantian Naturalist
@LarTanner at 231 - states "JDH seems to have dropped out after my response to him at 138, which I take as a sign he agrees and has been corrected." Please LT never again make the absurd statement that my silence to respond to your non-answer means I admit defeat and stand corrected. It is a testament your inability to comprehend the well thought out and logical arguments against your thesis that you would assume my moving on to more important things ( such as job, life, family ) implies my assent. I have many better things to do than trying to convince a fool to part with his folly. JDH
Elvis47089 said:
Morality on objective or divine ground does not exist. In a democracy voters decide what is good and bad moral and that´s the way it should be!
Who says? Why should I submit to democracy when it comes to morality? William J Murray
E, Pardon, I will make some points: 1 --> Deism can be viewed as a form of theism. 2 --> Collins is hardly doing something new, the view that a cosmos stems from a mind behind its unified order goes back on the record through Newton to at least Plato. 3 --> There are all sorts of notions about morality and morality in a democratic community about. My remarks are shaped by my ancestors having been enslaved and liberty having to be won through democratic liberation struggle on Bible rooted principles of justice led by men like Wilberforce and Buxton. So, I take a clear, sharp, instructive case: A YOUNG CHILD, KIDNAPPED, RAPED AND TORTURED, THEN KILLED FOR SOMEONE'S SICK PLEASURE AND PROFIT THROUGH A SNUFF VIDEO. Is this or is this not objectively wrong? Not, as a matter of opinion and balance of views, but as an objective matter. 4 --> If your worldview's foundations do not contain a convincing IS that objectively grounds an OUGHT that gives a clear answer here, it is useless or worse than useless. (Remember, my ancestors simply did not have the resources to defeat the British Empire and win liberty, and Wilberforce started as a minority of one in parliament, backed by a literal handful of supporters.) 5 --> If you cannot answer to this decisively, you have nothing to stand with when the ruthless nihilists come with their manipulation and intimidation tactics. And, don't fool yourself that "it will never happen here." That is what the Jews of Germany thought in the face of clever, manipulative, demonic evil presenting itself as political messiah in a day of unprecedented crises. 6 --> We are not dealing with "Religion" or with particular religions, but with the question of what really obtains about our world, in a context of critical analysis of worldviews. 7 --> Surely you know that corrupt but clever men can seize dominion over any powerful institution and bend it to their power and domination games, from a temple [never forget the TWO incidents of cleansing a temple with a whip!], to a court, to a church to a school to a business to a parliament. If I have any bedrock political credo, it is this: "power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely, great men are bad men" -- Lord Acton, historian. 8 --> and you had better believe I see the usurpation and manipulation of science and education by ideological, a priori materialists in our day in that light. 9 --> The philosophy of monotheism is not the root of power abuse by corrupt men. And never forget the two end points of passion week: cleansing out a temple turned into a den of thieves, and a man declared innocent then cruelly whipped and crucified in light of the power games of corrupt elites, both religious and secular. Thank God, that was Friday, but Sunday was coming. 10 --> I find it a serious warning sign that after a century in which secularist, evolutionary materialist regimes have been responsible for over 100 millions murdered by govenment gone bad, and just in the leading democracy over the past 40 years under a corrupt ruling by its leading court 55 millions have been slaughtered in the womb, the fixed focus is on how religion is such a danger to us. I cry, red herring, led away to strawman soaked in poisonous ad hominems and set alight to distract attention from the dangers of amoral radical relativism backed up by the ideological captivity of science to materialism. 12 --> Kindly, tell me who is seriously advocating for theocracy, apart from IslamISTS that the self same secularists tiptoe around? This is a poisoned strawman set alight to cloud, confuse, choke, polarise and poison the atmosphere. (For one, it resolutely refuses to acknowledge the contribution of the Judaeo-Christian frame to modern liberty and democracy, distorting history willfully to do that by creating a scapegoat. In short, you have been fed a bill of manipulative false narrative talking points 4rooted in half truths and outright lies that exploit gaps in your knowledge base, and cannot seem to see the obvious, even when it is spelled out. No prizes for guessing how that was done, by whom and to the benefit of what agenda.) 13 --> If I were hearing a more balanced, more nuanced view, I would not be so strong in saying what I am saying, but you have to realise I can smell an agit prop subversion agenda and its signature talking point patterns upwind a dozen miles off, having lived through a society that narrowly escaped a major communist subversion attempt. ____________ I hope I have been plain enough to at least trigger you to think again and ask, what if at least some of what this fellow off in the Caribbean who went through a mini civil war that pivoted on extremely ruthless nihilistic manipulative follytricks backed up by murder -- which cost him an "aunt" -- during his uni days might just have a modicum of truth in it? Please, please, please, think again. KF kairosfocus
Elvis: Pardon, I was giving a shorthand way of saying that the arguments to God has not stopped at the stage of from Aquinas up to Kant et al, and there are pretty serious modern forms put up by Plantinga et al. KF kairosfocus
KN (440): But the whole is that which has nothing external to it — if it did, it would not be the whole — hence, the whole cannot be explained — (..)
This - of course - makes sense. The whole has no exterior cause. This notion is fundamental to the cosmological argument, the Uncaused Cause, the Prime Mover. What exactly is your point? Box
What Is That To You? Words and Music, Alan Pomper (C) 2006 - All rights reserved 1. There was a time before the past - when things to come were clearly cast On Earth below and Stars above - Of what He’d do - Mercy - Love Of what He then made true - What is that to you?  2. How much time does man require - To see the things that made their hour? What else can His arm reveal? - His story told that then came real Of sacrifice He’d do -What is that to you? What will make us feel - The weight of history real? With eyes to see and heart to feel - Open our eyes - all You provide - All You gave to know the way And still we choose to hide! 3. The Word to me, this plaintive song - The Truth upon this world so long  Before this world was formed in space - He laid His plan - eternal grace His Word made to come true - With eyes to see the cross - With heart to feel the cost With faith not to be lost 4. We find the lines before they passed - Isaiah now, history fast Of pains for us He’d do - There is not found another way That gave so much that is to say - He gave His all for you He  gave  His  all  its  true - What is that to you? alan
KN: You have a lot going on in your brain, but that doesn't mean is the whole thing! - just a thought. Or - how to confuse oneself and others to avoid not realizing that's what your doing. alan
kairofocus; I´m sorry for this late response. You have much to say of which some parts are incomprehensible to me(e.g. undefined variables in your math formulas). My response is therefore a bit selective. 1. Comment 295; I don´t know what you mean with “theistic views developed in modern forms”. I would guess there are several interpretations of that expression. Anyway, I have read books by guys like Francis S Collins, who promulgates a view that attempts to integrate theism with natural science. The natural laws are looked upon as parts of God´s plan and it is a scientific duty to, as much as possible, reveal this plan and, by doing so, get humanity closer to the divine. However; What´s the difference between this view and deism? 2. Comment 295; I have stoic ideals. To me, morality is an individual quality even though many people today do agree on what is evil and good. Morality on objective or divine ground does not exist. In a democracy voters decide what is good and bad moral and that´s the way it should be! 3. Comment 295; As I wrote in my first article a creator of some sort cannot be entirely ruled out. But that´s a deistic creator. Whether or not there is or was a creator has no importance for my anti-religious attitude as I think that the existence of religion is justified by divine providence – that does not exist! 4. Comment 362; Theists, criticized for all the wrongdoings monotheism has committed for millennia, are often delighted to point out fallacies of secularist and “democratic” political regimes. And that´s how it is; crooks, bandits, maniacs etc will be there no matter political system. But democracy is at least an ideal worth striving for. Theocracy is not since monotheism is based on fundamental elitist and undemocratic “interpretations” and dogmas(see 365). We must also remember that democracy, true(not Greek) democracy, is a very young phenomenon as compared to religion. Some patience is certainly needed in the global democratic evolution. Elvis4708
KN:
As for the fine-tuning argument, I’ll admit that it looks like a decent argument for something like a divine creator. The reason why it doesn’t convince me is because I just don’t see why a divine creator is a better explanation than infinite universes.
This is not really a rational option. Infinity is a concept. It cannot do anything, explain anything, or be instantiated in nature.
There are several different ways of hearing the question, “why is there something rather than nothing?”
No, there are not different ways of hearing that question. The whole point of the quote was to reduce the problem to it simplest essence.
For me personally, I’m terribly fond of Wittgenstein’s rejoinder: “it is not how things are, but that they are, which is the mystical” (TLP 6.44).
That is just another way of saying that the "why" is more important than the how, which is the point of the original quote. Why do you construct all these unnecessarily complicated barriers in order to avoid confronting basic issues?
But the whole is that which has nothing external to it — if it did, it would not be the whole — hence, the whole cannot be explained — though it can be, of course, beheld, appreciated, marveled at, etc.
Don't you think it would be a good idea to define the word "whole" prior to making a statement like that? The relationship between a whole and its parts is different than the relationship between a whole and its cause? Further, a caused "whole" may be different from the "whole" of reality, which, in turn, could include many wholes and their parts. Again, you appear to be wallowing in complexity in order to avoid rational discourse. StephenB
KN: I think we have had a good exchange across several threads now. Given the undue hostility and patently hate-driven personalities I have seen across the past couple of years (and hate site operators, I am not bothering to look at whatever lies, smears and threats you may be spewing forth these days, and hope that others only do so to see what you are pushing and manifest as character . . . please, have the decency to look yourself in the mirror, stop, reform, and make amends), that is not to be underestimated. I see your lack of confidence in comprehensive metaphysical/worldview systems. My problem here is, that such cannot be avoided, they can only be shunted to the side of being implicit, assumed and unexamined. Unexamined metaphysics, notoriously, is bad or even dangerous metaphysics. And in particular, I have excellent reason to see that evolutionary materialism and its fellow travellers are very dangerous indeed. As to sharks, I speak of the destructive forces of chaos, within our civilisation and in the wider world. Call them the street nihilists and the organised enemies if you will. My concern is that if we do not make sure to first do no harm, we may inadvertently trigger a disintegration of that which has maintained a relatively wholesome culture that has fostered liberty, genuine progress and reformation for centuries (don't ever underestimate the fact that I am descended from slaves and that my very name writes in the story of standing up to and paying a horrific and unjustly imposed price at the hands of of abusive oppressive government into my personality). First, do no harm, I say. Next, I see your:
The reason I disagree is due to two claims: (1) I think that we have perfectly good reasons to accept that evolutionary pressures produced reliable pattern-mapping cognitive systems, such as what we see in many different kinds of animals; (2) the differences between rational human cognition and ‘brute’ animal cognition can be explained largely in terms of the evolution of language. In a much earlier discussion with Mung, I raised the question, “what else is needed to produce an autopoeitic system besides an autocatalytic set and a semi-permeable membrane?” Likewise, for me the question here is, “what else is needed to produce a rational minded animal besides a minded animal and a natural language?” As for the fine-tuning argument, I’ll admit that it looks like a decent argument for something like a divine creator. The reason why it doesn’t convince me is because I just don’t see why a divine creator is a better explanation than infinite universes.
First, I have excellent reason to believe that while we do have functioning minds, there is no good reason to believe that blind chance multiplied by differential reproductive success suffices to account for the mind, starting from full language capacity on up. There are just so stories and handwaving that embed a priori materialism, but I find no reason to have confidence that even the baseline of the amount of functionally specific complex organisation and information that would have to be programmed into say a population of chimp like creatures somewhere in E Africa 6 MYA, can be generated by the atomic-temporal resources of the observed cosmos in its credible thermodynamic lifespan [~ 50 mn times the estimated age of the observed cosmos to date . . . and the sort of polarisation and strawman tactic snip, misrepresent and snipe games I have faced -- most recently on cancer-causing viruses -- do not even allow me to cite just "cosmos"]. We are talking millions of bits of info, vs a credible FSCO/I threshold of 1,000 bits. That is one key -- and unanswered -- point that design theory brings to the table. In other words,t eh very ability to express yourself in verbal, symbolic, abstraction-expressing language is on the table as needing to be explained on evolutionary materialist premises. In short, in the clip above, you have summed up the first major point of the problem and handed it back as the solution, begging the big and unanswered question involved. Through the evident word-magic of a priori evolutionary materialism. So, pardon my lack of confidence that such blind forces are capable of explaining accuracy of thought, concept formation, reasoning on abstract matters and morally tinged logical judgements etc. Inded, as I have pointed out above, the very notion of reducing mind to a neurological processor system, is fraught with self-referential incoherences in many ways, ways that come out so soon as one becomes specific. The fate of Freudianism, behaviourism, Marxism etc are sign posts that point to the much broader class of problems faced by any evolutionary materialism-driven attempted account of human mental capacities and the credibility of the world of thought. What is required to explain cell based, Carbon Chemistry, aqueous medium life starts, of course withe the fine tuned cosmos that accounts for these ingredients and the sites that life is found in. Pause on that . . . Skipping to the case of some warm little pond or the like, we then see the need to account for digitally controlled chemistry that uses complex information rich molecular machines as execution units for codes, algorithms and the like, implicating encapsulated metabolic automata with the additional feature of a von Neumann self replicator that codes for replicating the whole unit. This poses a major organisation and information barrier to attempts to explain OOL on blind chemistry and physics. One that has not been crossed, is nowhere near being crossed and is getting wider as our understanding of the complexities involved deepens. It is not an accident that he actual -- as opposed to projected, propagandistic -- roots of design theory arose in connexion with the cosmological and thermodynamic-reaction kinetics- informational challenges (not to mention atmospheric physics, ocean chemistry and geological challenges that also obtain) confronting OOL speculations and experimentation. Since the turn of the 1980's, the situation has got worse and worse, not better. As for the notion of an infinite regress of sub cosmi or the like, have you worked through the thermodynamics involved, and addressed the implications of ever-increasing entropy in any fundamentally physical system? The answer comes up: finite lifespan, and heat death. I have already pointed to the problem of traversing a countable infinite succession of steps to reach the present, which is tied to the issue that mathematics is connected to the deep necessary structure of any possible world. I do not think, on this alone, that such a world is even feasible. 9the old Steady State theory had matter and energy popping out of nowhere, feeding in steady fresh materials and I would infer a non-closed system. That itself had serious problems.) the need for a sub-cosmos bakery to do the world popping in a context where in the cosmological config space vicinity of our observed world, there is credibly an extremely sharply peaked operating point zone, i.e. local fine tuning. There is no good reason to imagine that a cosmos bakery would be likely to do what we used to do in labs: sample much more tightly near a knee or a resonance peak. In short, you have simply exported the fine tuning problem up one level. It is suprisingly hard to get rid of, even on multiverse scenarios. That brings up the next problem, multiverse speculations, even when constructed while wearing the proverbial lab coat, are not observationally anchored. metaphysics on cosmology, not strictly speaking, science. We are still back at the issue of fine tuning pointing to contrivance rooted in monkeying with the physics of the cosmos, thirty years after Hoyle put the issue squarely on the table in those terms. Of course, in the end a worldview is going to rest on a cluster of first plausibles, implying a faith-point. That is why the business of serious worldviews choice pivots on comparative difficulties, and it is why it is improper to permit the imposition of a priori materialist censorship on a discussion that has now crossed over -- too often, unannounced -- into outright philosophy. So, we are back, full circle, at the challenge of reasonable faith and worldviews, on as broad a topic as can be named: roots of being and of the cosmos we live in. With fine tuning being absolutely crucial, fine tuning that strongly points to an awesomely powerful cosmos building architect of astonishing knowledge, subtlety, skill and evident intent to create conditions that set up the exact kind of C-Chemistry, cell based life we experience. Where also -- shock -- the sites that are best suited for such life, seem also to be practically begging one to investigate, explore and reflect on the cosmos. As in, a big hint . . . Okay, it has been a very useful exchange, for which I must thank you [for myself and for onlookers who are benefitting from simply seeing what a serious exchange on these issues looks like], even as we may go forward a bit more. Moretime, time to get back to rest if not sleep, as insomnia power has its limits . . . KF kairosfocus
In re: Box @ 439:
This I find truly amazing and disappointing to be frank. How can any philosopher say this about this grand old question? ‘Why is there something rather than nothing?’, and where does it all come from? … Well … that does not interest me terribly ??? I don’t get it.
There are several different ways of hearing the question, "why is there something rather than nothing?". For me personally, I'm terribly fond of Wittgenstein's rejoinder: "it is not how things are, but that they are, which is the mystical" (TLP 6.44). Meaning, of course I'm interested in explanations of all kinds, but one feature of explanations is that they situate what is to be explained in relation to something that does the explaining. But the whole is that which has nothing external to it -- if it did, it would not be the whole -- hence, the whole cannot be explained -- though it can be, of course, beheld, appreciated, marveled at, etc. Kantian Naturalist
KN: “The most a comprehensive metaphysical system can do is make explicit how things stand to those who are situated at a particular time and place. (…) But I also think that justifications and explanations do come to an end somewhere (…) “
Do you mean that some things have no explanation? IOW that some things are ‘miracles’? In post 405 you stated, KN: “(..) that doesn’t mean that everything must have some reason or other.” Or do you mean that our reason is not capable of discovering the reasons for certain things?
KN: “The question about the origin of the cosmos as a whole does not interest me terribly.“
This I find truly amazing and disappointing to be frank. How can any philosopher say this about this grand old question? 'Why is there something rather than nothing?', and where does it all come from? … Well … that does not interest me terribly ??? I don’t get it. Box
In re: Kairosfocus @ 420
Pardon a first rough reaction, but that sounds uncommonly like, having no foundational grounding for the reliability of the conscious, knowing, reasoning, warranting etc mind, I take it a brute fact. This sounds a lot like the same on morality and the same relative to the question of worldviews and foundations.
Actually, I do think that there's a perfectly good argument for the reliability of rational cognition; I don't take it as a 'brute fact'. (By this I mean that I think there's a good argument for defeating Cartesian skepticism. But that might not be what you have in mind here.) I just don't think that establishing the reliability of rational cognition stands or falls with any particular claims about the origins of the universe.
You will recall my pointing to yes, the raft is always under/subject to reconstruction, but also it sits in the sea which provides support and foundation for the structure AND for the sharks waiting to have lunch if we mess up royally and cause the systems to break up.
I have a feeling that I don't really understand what you mean by "the sharks" in this extended metaphor. Insofar as I can make sense of it in my own terms, I would say that I have my own reasons for thinking that contemporary Western civilization is headed straight off the cliff. And I think that because we have managed to build for ourselves a society in which alternatives to capitalism are basically non-existent and a topic for ridicule whenever mentioned. So we're unable to stop ourselves from destroying the ecosystems upon which human life and flourishing depends.
I think I am reading you as resorting to a sort of emergentism, multiplied by a pattern of disintegration of domains of the life of the mind.
What strikes you as a single explanation strikes me as multiple explanations, the domains of which are interconnected in various ways.
To that, I must respond, that the forces of chance variation and natural and/or sexual selection and of psycho-social conditioning etc, are such that there is no good reason to accept that a credible mind is likely to arise on such.
The reason I disagree is due to two claims: (1) I think that we have perfectly good reasons to accept that evolutionary pressures produced reliable pattern-mapping cognitive systems, such as what we see in many different kinds of animals; (2) the differences between rational human cognition and 'brute' animal cognition can be explained largely in terms of the evolution of language. In a much earlier discussion with Mung, I raised the question, "what else is needed to produce an autopoeitic system besides an autocatalytic set and a semi-permeable membrane?" Likewise, for me the question here is, "what else is needed to produce a rational minded animal besides a minded animal and a natural language?" As for the fine-tuning argument, I'll admit that it looks like a decent argument for something like a divine creator. The reason why it doesn't convince me is because I just don't see why a divine creator is a better explanation than infinite universes. At the end of the day, the Democritean response to Anaxagoras still looks pretty good to me, too: don't underestimate what infinity can do! I just don't think that the multiverse explanation is any better than a divine creator, either. As I keep stressing, from my perspective it's a leap of faith either way. Kantian Naturalist
In re: Box @ 413
First I want to praise you for your analysis of the conflict: ‘pluralism and monism’. You bring light to the discussion; a fine example of intellectual honesty.
Thank you; it's nice to know that my efforts are appreciated.
But I’m not sure about your assessment of the scope of reason in regard to conflicts of this order. What about heliocentrism vs geocentrism, is that conflict too beyond the scope of reason? What do you think about the role of Ockham’s razor in these matters?
The conflict between heliocentrism and geocentrism is a local conflict, specific to a particular domain of inquiry, with more-or-less agreed-upon criteria for how to resolve it. (Though maybe that's too anodyne a reading of how the conflict really played itself out, historically -- one might think that it through this particular debate that the domain of "astronomy" was constituted. I'm not sure.) Mind you, I'm thoroughly fascinated with comprehensive metaphysical systems. I'm just not very confident that we will ever hit upon one that is ultimately true for all times and places. The most a comprehensive metaphysical system can do is make explicit how things stand to those who are situated at a particular time and place.
The limited scope of reason is a returning theme in your reasoning
Yes, I try to be consistent. :)
If not ‘everything must have some reason’ are there any objective rules to guide our reason? Or are we allowed to choose what to explain and what not to explain in order to get results that we ‘want’?
I think that having an attitude of, "hey, this is interesting! Let's try and figure out what caused it!" is central to empirical inquiry (including but not limited to science). But I also think that justifications and explanations do come to an end somewhere, and the goal is just keep on pushing the envelope. I do think that one is permitted to make some choices here and there, without shirking one's intellectual obligations. I'm deeply interested in the problem of abiogenesis, but actually I'm much more interested in what I call "the problem of 'alogogenesis'" -- the problem of how rational cognition evolved from other kinds of animal cognition. Compared to those problems, the question about the origin of the cosmos as a whole does not interest me terribly. Maybe that shows a lack of intellectual integrity on my part, but I don't believe so. I do believe that there are "objective rules to guide our reason," but I have a pretty modest conception of "objective". By my lights, "objective" just means "independent of the private mental life of any particular person", whereas "subjective" means "dependent on the private mental life of some particular person." So how I'm feeling right now is a set of subjective facts -- if my mental life were different, the facts would be different. I thereby distinguish between "objective" and "absolute." I use "absolute" to mean "what comes into view as being the case from no particular perspective", whereas "relative" means "what comes into view as being the case from a particular perspective". Using the terms in that way, I think of both science and ethics as being both objective-and-relative. The norms and principles of rational thought and conduct have an objectivity-for-us, and objectivity-for-us is all the objectivity that I want or need. The absolute is nothing to me -- perhaps in that sense I'm not so much an atheist as a post-theist, someone who is trying to get past "theism or atheism?" Kantian Naturalist
Atheists detest Reason with every bit as much passion as they love the concept, which they have the brass neck to tout as their special charism. Reminds me of the old clerical joke about the nun who said that humility was the special charism of their order. Axel
If it were, atheists would be the last people competent to do so. That's all too clear. Axel
F/N: On contingency of unicorns. Horses eat and breathe etc, they are born, they die. A hypothetical horse with a horn like a Rhino's, would reasonably be about the same. Indeed within a century, presumably we should be able to genetically engineer one, though I doubt the length of horn described would be sensible, albeit a Texas Longhorn comes close. KF kairosfocus
KN
If I were inclined to argue against the existence of God on logical grounds — and since it’s a Friday night and I haven’t yet decided to go out or not, so at present I have nothing better to do — I would be inclined to the following line of thought: how does one establish that it is possible that God exists?
When atheism confronts reason, reason will always lose. That is why skeptics feel the need to abandon reason even before they enter the arena. All the classical objections against God's existence are riddled with logical errors that become popularized, such as Russell's silly question about "Who made God?" or Hume's denial of the intellectual faculty or Kant's doubts about noumenal knowledge. The idea is to construct unnecessarily complicated barriers as a means for avoiding reason's obvious conclusions. StephenB
Alan, My comment was meant to be humorous. "Logic contradicts your view." "Not if you stop using logic!" William J Murray
WJM 417: don't you mean the other way around. Unless you can elaborate - define excessive rationalism as being un-rational. alan
"Coincidentally" Frank Turek's radio program this morning: Cold Case Homicide Detective Evaluates Evidence for Christianity! Join me and J Warner Wallace Today 10:05-11 am ET, 144 stations & http://crossexamined.org/radio.asp bornagain77
OT: A detective looks at the historical evidence for Christianity: (Dec. 28, 2012) Razor Swift -- Cold Case Christianity - W: J. Warner Wallace - radio interview http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsPm8JOw7Tw bornagain77
F/N: Do you see the issue that emerges? Namely, that if God is indeed a necessary being, it will not be feasible to construct a possible, coherent, factually adequate world in which God -- underlying grounding necessary being who is the basis for reason, order, sustainability, morality, mind etc -- is not present, even if we may only imply that presence. As a result, worldviews that reject God, will in the end be infeasible, i.e. groundless, absurd, circular, incoherent, irrational, amoral, factually inadequate and either reducing to being simplistic or else becoming after the fact ad hoc patchworks, etc. Sounds familiar? (Also cf here on for a critical survey of our own civilisation in light of these issues, building on an amended form of Schaeffer's visionary ideas.) KF kairosfocus
Okay, a different WJM, then. KF kairosfocus
Correction to bottom of above: I can easily understand the view that belief in god is ridiculous – I’ve been there – but I have since realized that just because one has a ridiculous notion of god, doesn’t mean all notions of god are ridiculous. William J Murray
KN: Following up, re:
One might think, “well, I can conceive of God’s existing, so it’s possible that God exists.” Not so fast, buckaroo, because that only works if conceivability entails possibility, and it’s just not really clear if it does. In fact, it’s just got to be the case that conceivability doesn’t entail possibility, because otherwise, we wouldn’t be able to conceive of impossible things, such as geometrical objects that have both four internal right angles and all the points of which are equidistant from the center, or formal systems that are both rich enough to express arithmetic and in which all sentences can be proven either true or false. To show that God is impossible is a much taller order — I mean, He certainly seems possible, right? Well, maybe. Maybe not. If God is impossible, it would be because the concept contains a contradiction. So, is the concept of God contradictory?
1 --> No-one has claimed that conceivability implies possibility, that is a shadow opponent. 2 --> What has been done is to ask, what does contingency mean, in light of a very familiar and instructive case study, namely a fire and the fire tetrahedron that lays out necessary causal factors, i.e enabling factors that must be present or "on" for the fire to begin, or continue, and of course as fire fighters know, taking out a factor (putting to "off" state) kills the fire. 3 --> So, we have isolated the necessary external, enabling causal factor as pivotal to contingency of being. 4 --> From this we see that hat which begins to exist, or may cease from existing or otherwise depends on enabling factors, is contingent. (This may be explored in more details with a box of matches.) 5 --> So, now we can freely ask: what would follow from a candidate being, say X, being such that it has no such external enabling factors? It would have no beginning, it cannot end, it is eternal, it is necessarily so, if it exists at all. 6 --> This is a logical exercise, yes, but an important one. 7 --> We then see that if something is like this, a genuinely necessary being, it is such that it is eternal, and that IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO CONSTRUCT A FEASIBLE WORLD IN WHICH IT IS NOT PRESENT. (That is the only way that it can be there, it has to be written into the DNA of a possible world, i.e. the issue is what is ordering that world. Hence the examples from mathematics.) 8 --> We have a clearer picture of what necessary being means. 9 --> Can such fail? Obviously, we may mistake a contingent being for a necessary one, as was done with the attempt to dismiss the ontological argument by substituting a pink unicorn. Nope, a unicorn, if possible (existing in some possible world) is obviously contingent. Go back and play with that box of matches again. 10 --> The other way that a candidate necessary being, X, can fail is obvious: for some reason, it is not possible at all, it is present in no worlds, i.e. it is impossible. The concept much less the existence of X is fatally flawed, like the proverbial square circle. We can make mouth noises about it, but once we move beyond such, we see that it cannot be constructed or existent in this or any world. Usually, for the reason that the concept embeds a contradiction that would force something to be and not be in the same sense and locus. 11 --> Now, it is obvious that eternality is a core part of the concept of God, which -- per our box of matches -- means, God is inherently a candidate necessary being. That is, if God is not an impossible notion, then inevitably we cannot construct a feasible world in which God is not present. 12 --> Where also we have seen that if a candidate necessary being is possible [i.e. we can have a feasible world in which it is present], it will be there in all possible worlds, and it will be in the actual one. 13 --> Which brings us back to the point of the discussion of worldviews on a cumulative case warrant basis, namely, that the rejection of God implies the view that God is an impossible being. 14 --> You actually imply that, by arguing:
is there a contradiction within the concept of an infinite mind? A mind is, among other things, something that perceives, thinks, and acts. But perception and action require that there be something external to the mind — namely, a world. But since God is infinite, nothing is external to Him. Before He created, He was; He was the infinite mind that He is prior to anything other than Himself coming into existence. But does it even make sense to suppose that a mind could exist without some world? Is the very concept of an infinite mind something like a square circle?
15 --> oddly enough, the answer to this was there long since, when Paul cited was it Cleanthes to the Athenian elites of the Areopagus council c AD 50, there in Athens:
Acts 17:22 So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man,[b] 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. 26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way towards him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, 28 for “‘In him we live and move and have our being’;[c] as even some of your own poets have said, “‘For we are indeed his offspring.’[d] 29 Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. 30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.” [ESV]
16 --> That is, there is a misconception on what perception entails. I can perceive within myself, through meta cognitive processes closely tied to my being a conscious minded reality, so why not God? And, linked closely, why on earth would perception, thinking and acting require a world "external" to the entity? 17 --> Has not this been the foundational view of Christian theism for 2,000 years? is it not the view that God is the creator and sustainer of the world, who is everywhere present and actively sustaining it by the world of his power? For instance, from Col 1, speaking of the Logos/Son:
Col 1:16 For by[f] him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. [ESV]
18 --> Why are you dismissing such by an anonymous side-swipe? Have you shown this to be impossible, or is it that it only seems so to you? 19 --> Which brings us back full circle again, to the issue of the implicit atheistical commitment to the impossibility of God. On fair comment, such needs to be shown, not assumed or implied. 20 --> With the logic of necessity of being in play, i.e. if a candidate necessary being is not instead contingent or impossible, it will be actual. Here, in the guise of God as the eternal ground of reality, actual or possible. ___________ So, we see the importance of these core worldview issues. And BTW, in Paul's opening, he pointed to the situation where the assembled elites and guardians of the Western intellectual tradition being based in a city where tehy had -- apparently for centuries -- maintained a monument tot heir ignorance on teh foundational, most important reality of all. He whom you acknowledge your ignorance of even as you blindly grope in worship, he it is whom I proclaim prophetically to you (and explain as well so you can understand), in the context of that which is reasonable and evident from 500+ eyewitnesses to the resurrection of the man at the crux of all history, God's man himself. The same, who is powerfully and evidently at work, rescuing and transforming the lives of millions across history and all around us as we speak today. So, let us seriously inquire with a genuinely open and reasonable mind. KF kairosfocus
Elvis4708 @ 387: My parents weren't particularly religious. We went to church on Sunday, but that was pretty much the extent of it and IMO they went just because it was the socially expected norm back then in that area. I don't remember ever hearing a peep from them about God, Jesus or the Bible. They stopped going by the time I was 10 or 12. I guess it depends on what you call "religious" as to whether or not I would be considered religious. I haven't been to church of any sort for a service since I was about 12. There is no written, formal doctrine I adhere to. However, I have not always been like this. I have at times in my life been very religious, and at another time a hardcore atheist (although some might consider such atheism a kind of religion). I will agree with your premise, though, that most people follow in the steps of their parents when it comes to what they believe. IMO, most people - whether atheist or theist - live lives under the rule of largely unexamined beliefs. IMO, most theists are theistic, and most atheists are atheistic, for irrational, unexamined reasons. The question is: which view holds up to rational scrutiny? I can easily understand the view that belief in god is ridiculous - I've been there - but I have since realized that just because on has a ridiculous notion of god, doesn't mean all notions of god are ridiculous. William J Murray
Of serendipitous note to the cause and effect and falling dominoes comments: Physicist creates math model to predict maximum incremental domino size (with video) - January 11, 2013 http://phys.org/news/2013-01-physicist-math-maximum-incremental-domino.html bornagain77
KF, If you mean the son of O'Hare, no. William J Murray
Mung, I do understand, and indeed I am thinking that it would be good if the cited had also used a simple symbol for the possibility mode, maybe p(X) = it is possible that X. Then there are the quantifiers, I suppose A and E could stand in for universal and existential quantifiers. (I am not going to try to compose a blog comment post that goes looking for whatever special codes have been developed to do that!) I note that reading aloud and translating helps. In any case the point was to highlight that the truly contentious point is the issue: God is in the end necessary or impossible, as if a candidate necessary being is possible, it exists in some possible world, and that means that there is nothing wrong with the logic of the construct, so it is actually not possible to construct a world in which it is not real. So, in the actual world, that being is present. I used the truth in the expression 2 + 3 = 5 to show this, and highlighted the existence of numbers for the same reason. Notice, in an empty world, the empty set is valid, and from it we can define operations and so we collect the succession of sets: {} = 0, {0} = 1, {0, 1} = 2, etc, i.e. we have numbers, and off we go to the world of mathematics. Once we are here, mind is here, and we can look at an imagined world that is possible, that is empty, and see that numbers and the links between them are unavoidable even in an empty world. That is itself a big clue about the underlying nature of reality, as mind so plainly here is prior to matter. I think it cannot be emphasised enough, that all of this is built on the underlying fact that is self-evident: here we are, minded, conscious, reasoning, knowing, embodied, morally governed creatures in a physical world that is credibly contingent, a world that is a cosmos not a chaos . . . it gives every indication of being a unified intelligible ordered whole. THAT is the core cluster of facts that any self-respecting worldview has to seriously and satisfactorily (hopefully, soundly) account for. This, too, is what makes KN's concessions above overnight so significant in light of the point in the OP and also in light of the boasts of ever so many "brights." It is sure beginning to look like some shoes are on the other foot. KF kairosfocus
KN: I find this quite interesting:
[KN:] the power of reason to guide human affairs, to indicate the possibilities for action, to suggest new avenues for empirical inquiry, and to check our passions and prejudices, is not the slightest bit imperiled by the thought that it is simply a brute fact that the multiverse is of such a nature that our particular universe, with its biogenic laws of physics, just happens to be among those that it causes.
Pardon a first rough reaction, but that sounds uncommonly like, having no foundational grounding for the reliability of the conscious, knowing, reasoning, warranting etc mind, I take it a brute fact. This sounds a lot like the same on morality and the same relative to the question of worldviews and foundations. (You will recall my pointing to yes, the raft is always under/subject to reconstruction, but also it sits in the sea which provides support and foundation for the structure AND for the sharks waiting to have lunch if we mess up royally and cause the systems to break up. As in you see a sort of foundherentism and "intelligibility-ism" in my views. Also a serious concern that if the lunatics run the asylum on the ship and manage to break it up, the sharks are waiting to have lunch. For a slightly different historical-cum-management take look here, as in messing up royally by playing advocacy and manipulation games, following who butters your bread rather than duties of care and a public manipulated into artificial stupidity, can be disastrous. It will not be a surprise to you to learn that this is one of my big concerns for our civilisation, and that -- having seen my homeland torn apart and ruined economically by glib messianistic pols, I take a very dim view of such indeed.) I think I am reading you as resorting to a sort of emergentism, multiplied by a pattern of disintegration of domains of the life of the mind. You will of course realise that to one from my perspective, that looks uncommonly like conceding the basic point of a want of foundation. In other moods, I have spoken of materialistic poof-magic, and there it is, folks, take it on trust. To that, I must respond, that the forces of chance variation and natural and/or sexual selection and of psycho-social conditioning etc, are such that there is no good reason to accept that a credible mind is likely to arise on such. I have laid out my 101-level reasons already, in 146 above in this thread. Now, as a humble[d? . . . ] applied physicist, I find this intriguing: the multiverse is of such a nature that our particular universe, with its biogenic laws of physics . . . 1 --> What is the empirical observational basis for a multiverse, strings, branes etc? [Last I checked, it seemed to be nil, but perhaps someone can inform me, maybe I overlooked something about our ability to observe other space-time manifolds, or the like. I do know that there is a strong feeling that far too much of cosmology and linked fields these days is more of speculative highly mathematical metaphysics, than actual empirically grounded science.] 2 --> Never mind that, what is your response to the issue of finetuning in even a multiverse as was raised by Leslie in his convergence observation and his fly on the long wall metaphor:
CONVERGENCE: One striking thing about the fine tuning is that a force strength or a particle mass often appears to require accurate tuning for several reasons at once. Look at electromagnetism. Electromagnetism seems to require tuning for there to be any clear-cut distinction between matter and radiation; for stars to burn neither too fast nor too slowly for life’s requirements; for protons to be stable; for complex chemistry to be possible; for chemical changes not to be extremely sluggish; and for carbon synthesis inside stars (carbon being quite probably crucial to life). Universes all obeying the same fundamental laws could still differ in the strengths of their physical forces, as was explained earlier, and random variations in electromagnetism from universe to universe might then ensure that it took on any particular strength sooner or later. Yet how could they possibly account for the fact that the same one strength satisfied many potentially conflicting requirements, each of them a requirement for impressively accurate tuning? [Our Place in the Cosmos, 1998] FLY-SWATTING: . . . the need for such explanations does not depend on any estimate of how many universes would be observer-permitting, out of the entire field of possible universes. Claiming that our universe is ‘fine tuned for observers’, we base our claim on how life’s evolution would apparently have been rendered utterly impossible by comparatively minor alterations in physical force strengths, elementary particle masses and so forth. There is no need for us to ask whether very great alterations in these affairs would have rendered it fully possible once more, let alone whether physical worlds conforming to very different laws could have been observer-permitting without being in any way fine tuned. Here it can be useful to think of a fly on a wall, surrounded by an empty region. A bullet hits the fly Two explanations suggest themselves. Perhaps many bullets are hitting the wall or perhaps a marksman fired the bullet. There is no need to ask whether distant areas of the wall, or other quite different walls, are covered with flies so that more or less any bullet striking there would have hit one. The important point is that the local area contains just the one fly.
3 --> I am also intrigued by the phrase about biogenetic laws of physics. Kindly, let me know what laws, discovered and verified by whom, are responsible for spontaneously setting up a cosmos in which the first four elements are H, He, C and O, with N near the top, and giving such properties that aqueous medium organic chemistry is enabled in the teeth of the comments by Hoyle on monkeying with physics. 4 --> Further to these laws, do let me know which ones are responsible for spontaneously writing code in the living cell starting at about 100,000 - 1 mn bits [along with creating the execution machines], and for spontaneously writing the 10 - 100 mn further bits, dozens of times, t5o account for the major body plans. By whom discovered, how empirically verified, when? (Why no Nobel or equivalent prizes and no blazed headlines to date?) 5 --> In light of the linked concerns at 146, how did these laws account for the credibility of the material mind and our sense of consciousness and its features that gave rise to the hard problem of consciousness? _________ You will understand that until solid answers to these and related questions are in hand, I would be led rather to infer that I am seeing a creedal declaration and a hope not an achievement. I ask you to reflect on what you are acknowledging in light of the base issues in the thread. KF kairosfocus
WJM, are you THAT WJM? (Knocks side of head, hearing hollow sound, blushes . . . ) KF kairosfocus
Elvis a word of advise, look up who William J Murray is..... you might just see these discussions in a very new light.... Andre
Excessive Rationalism: when logic gets in the way of believing what one wants. William J Murray
Box at 388, how sad for your mother to say that to you at 6, and Richard Dawkins accuses Christians of child abuse. Perhaps this comment from Pam Reynold's may bring more remedy: "I think death is an illusion. I think death is a really nasty, bad lie. I don’t see any truth in the word death at all" – Pam Reynolds Lowery (1956 – May 22, 2010) http://christopherlovejoy.com/2011/03/20/who-you-really-are/ The Day I Died - Part 4 of 6 - The Extremely "Monitored" NDE of Pam Reynolds - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045560 bornagain77
I'd like to explain my increasing girth in ways that have nothing to do with my food intake and lack of exercise! Mung
KN, you’re not a reductionist. Do you accept top-down causation?
To be quite honest, I'm not thoroughly familiar with the concept. But insofar as I have any grasp of it, yes. Kantian Naturalist
Kantian Naturalist (397) I don’t think that the real conflict here — pluralism and monism — I don’t think that is amenable to reason. I think that some people are perfectly content with pluralism, and others are not, they want monism.
First I want to praise you for your analysis of the conflict: ‘pluralism and monism’. You bring light to the discussion; a fine example of intellectual honesty. But I’m not sure about your assessment of the scope of reason in regard to conflicts of this order. What about heliocentrism vs geocentrism, is that conflict too beyond the scope of reason? What do you think about the role of Ockham’s razor in these matters? The limited scope of reason is a returning theme in your reasoning:
Kantian Naturalist (405) :”To some extent, a pragmatic naturalism of the sort I advocate looks askance at excessive rationalism. Reasoning is a powerful tool in human life, and one that I sincerely wish was more often displayed by those in power. But that doesn’t mean that everything must have some reason or other.”
If not ‘everything must have some reason’ are there any objective rules to guide our reason? Or are we allowed to choose what to explain and what not to explain in order to get results that we 'want'? Box
KN, you're not a reductionist. Do you accept top-down causation? Mung
...how does one establish that it is possible that God exists? It is either possible, or it is not. Unless you reject reason. And no doubt the fact that we exist enters in to the equation.
Mung
If I were inclined to argue against the existence of God on logical grounds -- and since it's a Friday night and I haven't yet decided to go out or not, so at present I have nothing better to do -- I would be inclined to the following line of thought: how does one establish that it is possible that God exists? How do get to that starting point? We don't get that "for free," so to speak. Or, put otherwise, yes, it's true that in strictly modal terms, that's where we'd have to begin, but are we entitled to use modal terms? So, there's this interesting discussion about the relationship between conceivability and possibility (conversely, between inconceivability and impossibility). One might think, "well, I can conceive of God's existing, so it's possible that God exists." Not so fast, buckaroo, because that only works if conceivability entails possibility, and it's just not really clear if it does. In fact, it's just got to be the case that conceivability doesn't entail possibility, because otherwise, we wouldn't be able to conceive of impossible things, such as geometrical objects that have both four internal right angles and all the points of which are equidistant from the center, or formal systems that are both rich enough to express arithmetic and in which all sentences can be proven either true or false. To show that God is impossible is a much taller order -- I mean, He certainly seems possible, right? Well, maybe. Maybe not. If God is impossible, it would be because the concept contains a contradiction. So, is the concept of God contradictory? I don't know, but I certainly have entertained from time to time the following bit of sophistry. God has psychological properties -- He has desires and beliefs. (Ex hypothesi, He has all the true beliefs that there are.) And certainly He wants certain things, such as it being the case that humanity desires and pursues the good. God is a mind (though perhaps also more than a mind?). He is an (or the?) infinite mind. But, is there a contradiction within the concept of an infinite mind? A mind is, among other things, something that perceives, thinks, and acts. But perception and action require that there be something external to the mind -- namely, a world. But since God is infinite, nothing is external to Him. Before He created, He was; He was the infinite mind that He is prior to anything other than Himself coming into existence. But does it even make sense to suppose that a mind could exist without some world? Is the very concept of an infinite mind something like a square circle? Kantian Naturalist
KN, you are a strange bird! Not insult intended. Theists believe things happen for one reason. Atheists believe things happen for many reasons (or at least three). You seem to want to tread a middle ground, some things happen for no reason at all. Assuming your view is correct, how do we differentiate? Mung
I probably should have written; It is not possible that x is the case, therefore ~x must be the case. But the limb is still shaking. :) Mung
KN: I doubt there is a case of affirming the consequent, lol. It is not possible that x is the case, therefore y must be the case. Sounds more like a reductio. But I am seriously out on a limb here, admittedly. Mung
PS: Remember, too, how we get to the affirming the consequent [ATC] fallacy: confusing implication for equivalence. Showing double implication step by step in light of additional info is not ATC, for example. And where there is substantial additional information at work, that is not a tautology nor begging the question. kairosfocus
To some extent, a pragmatic naturalism of the sort I advocate looks askance at excessive rationalism. Reasoning is a powerful tool in human life, and one that I sincerely wish was more often displayed by those in power. But that doesn't mean that everything must have some reason or other. At any rate: the power of reason to guide human affairs, to indicate the possibilities for action, to suggest new avenues for empirical inquiry, and to check our passions and prejudices, is not the slightest bit imperiled by the thought that it is simply a brute fact that the multiverse is of such a nature that our particular universe, with its biogenic laws of physics, just happens to be among those that it causes. Kantian Naturalist
KN: Not so, there is no sequence like that, the intervening steps are key. And, Necessarily (God exists) DOES entail that (God exists) -- necessary beings exist in all possible worlds. (At the tail it is a bit pedantic on symbol reduction.) The critical step is the assertion that it is possible for God to exist, which is the point, once it is possible for a necessary being candidate to exist, it exists in at least one possible world and this propagates to all such including the actual one. Or, it is impossible to build a possible world in which an actually necessary being does not exist. The 3 + 2 = 5 example, thanks to the power of the empty set and abstract manipulations, will even exist in an empty world. The issue is back to: God's existence [remember, eternal so necessary], for the atheist, is implicitly impossible. So, what is the warrant for that claim or implication, now that the deductive form of the problem of evil is dead and things like no being can be omnipotent because such cannot make the equivalent of a square circle have also fallen by the wayside? KF kairosfocus
Kantian Naturalist:
That’s because the theist has a single explanation for (i) the existence of the universe; (ii) the existence and history of life; (iii) the nature of rational norms, including moral norms. The atheist doesn’t have a single explanation for all three things; she has three different explanations for each of those three things, each of which has some degree of plausibility.
Given that theism has a single explanation for everything, how do you explain the rise of science in the context of a theistic world view? The atheist, on the other hand, does not have a separate explanation. "It wasn't God," is the unifying underlying metaphysic (or I really really hope it wasn't god).
The problem, as I see it, is just this: theism offers a single, nice, coherent explanation for the existence of the universe, the history of life, the objectivity of morality, the necessity of mathematics, the regularity of empirical nature, etc. Atheism doesn’t offer a single, nice, coherent explanation that covers all those topics. In a sense, what it really means to be an atheist is to deny that there is any such tidy explanation. An atheist needs to accept many different explanations. So there’s a certain pluralistic patchwork to the atheist’s worldview.
Atheism sees no unity and yet science proceeds as if all is unified. Go figure. Mung
Atheism doesn’t offer a single, nice, coherent explanation that covers all those topics.
"It just happened, that's all," pretty much covers it all. It's true, that's not all that coherent or even remotely satisfying an explanation. Therefore, science. IOW, science stands in opposition to atheism. Mung
PS: Evidentialism is patently self refuting. A worldview that acknowledges that we have first plausibles that we accept as just that without further "proof" (though we may compare difficulties and address factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory power) is NOT evidentialist. But, it may seek to be a reasonable -- as opposed to unreasonable -- faith. Which echoes a certain recent book's title, I know. kairosfocus
I have a question about the proof at 396. It looks as though it's supposed to be read as:
(1) g --> Ng (2) Ng ------------------ (3) g
Put that way, it looks like "affirming the consequent":
(1) p --> q (2) q ------------------ (3) p
and that's formally invalid. Revise and resubmit! :) Kantian Naturalist
KN: It seems that what is at stake here is, first, whether reality and truth are a unified coherent whole that adequately answers to the facts and is sufficiently intelligible to make elegant, simple (not simplistic) powerful sense. This is of course the vision that drove the rise of modern science. Second, the implications of the sense of sufficient reason, that for that which is, it can be asked why, bring to bear issues of cause and that which is, being uncaused -- necessary being. Somewhere in this lurks the same point made way above: you may choose to reject the theistic world picture and its rational vision, but that comes at a metaphysical price. One that, cumulatively may be surprisingly stiff. I see for instance a shock on the issue of implying and needing to warrant the impossibility of God. KF kairosfocus
Box: sorry, we are in deep waters here, as my just above will show. (That was lurking under the surface [this same issue was debated at UD some time ago), and I now think it necessary to "go naked." It will help to follow to read aloud, e.g. N(g) v ~N(g) says, it is necessary that God exists OR it is not necessary that God exists, i.e. this is a dichotomy.) KF kairosfocus
In re: Kairosfocus @ 284
What is the question is that we are part of a credibly contingent world in a context where a beginning is also highly credible. We need to reckon with the absence of causal efficacy of non-being, and account for contingency. That leads to necessity as ground of contingent reality. That necessity has been drawn out on the terms of lacking enabling causal factors and so being eternal. Multiply by fine tuning and evident design and we are at purpose, skill, knowledge and power to effect same. Bring in our being under moral government and we have a necessary being who is the purposeful, enormously powerful, knowledgeable, rational and skillful architect and maker of the world who is moral governor as the explanation to beat. So far, nothing proffered from the atheistical side has come close.
That's because the theist has a single explanation for (i) the existence of the universe; (ii) the existence and history of life; (iii) the nature of rational norms, including moral norms. The atheist doesn't have a single explanation for all three things; she has three different explanations for each of those three things, each of which has some degree of plausibility. But I really do not believe for a moment that either theism or atheism has a rational basis. I think that William James was exactly right when he criticized evidentialism in his "The Will to Believe." When it comes to embracing a comprehensive world-view, it's not that we believe what we 'want' to, but that we embrace a vision of things that we need to embrace, that calls out to us. I've known people who were miserable as atheists and overjoyed to become theists, and likewise, people who were miserable as theists and overjoyed to become atheists. And I know quite a view who are perfectly happy as agnostics. I have absolutely zero interest in arguing against theism. I'm interested in defending atheism against some of the criticisms raised against it. Is atheism rationally justifiable? To a considerable extent, I think it is, but there are limits, and it's interesting to see where those are. The problem, as I see it, is just this: theism offers a single, nice, coherent explanation for the existence of the universe, the history of life, the objectivity of morality, the necessity of mathematics, the regularity of empirical nature, etc. Atheism doesn't offer a single, nice, coherent explanation that covers all those topics. In a sense, what it really means to be an atheist is to deny that there is any such tidy explanation. An atheist needs to accept many different explanations. So there's a certain pluralistic patchwork to the atheist's worldview. I don't think that the real conflict here -- pluralism and monism -- I don't think that is amenable to reason. I think that some people are perfectly content with pluralism, and others are not, they want monism. And from where I sit, they're fine to want that -- they'll get no grief from me. Kantian Naturalist
F/N: For those willing to kick it up several notches, cf here on modal logic, esp S5. Then you may want to look at the discussion here. Hey, let me clip this last:
Hartshorne's ontological argument is based on Anselm's second argument and claims that God's existence is logically necessary. Hartshorne's argument is given here, where "N(A)" means "it is logically necessary that A," "~A" means "it is not the case that A," "-->" is strict implication, "v" means "or," and "g" means "God exists": g --> N(g) N(g) v ~N(g) ~N(g) --> N(~N(g)) N(g) v N(~N(g)) N(~N(g)) --> N(~g) N(g) v N(~g) ~N(~g) N(g) N(g) --> g g This argument is valid. Furthermore, given an Anselmian conception of God, premises one and five are sound. Premise two is just the law of the excluded middle, and premise three is a law of the modal logic S5. Premise nine is obviously sound, so this leaves premise seven as the only premise to question. Premise seven says that it is logically possible that God exists . . . . The argument turns on the distinction between necessity and contingency, and upon the distinction between mere possibility and the nature of necessary being as not mere possible. In other words, God is either necessary or impossible. If God exists than he is ontologically necessary, because he is logically necessary by definition. But if he does not exist than it is ontologically impossible that he exists, or could come to exist. This is because God cannot be contingent, by definition. A contingency is just not God. So if God is possible, he can't be "merely possible" and thus is not impossible, which means he must be necessary.
The key point comes back to where the exchange started, as eternality is core to the concept of God and is known to mean necessity of being, the objector to the existence of God faces the challenge that he implies that God is impossible. KF kairosfocus
Reason, is the capacity for consciously making sense of things, for establishing and verifying facts, and changing or justifying practices, institutions, and beliefs based on new or existing information.
There's that nasty I word again. Mung
A hypothesis of mine is that religious people, living today, to at least 90 per cent are brought up by religious parents. What about you? Were your parents religious?
I have a hypothesis as well. My hypothesis is that all people, living today, were brought up by fallible parents who held a range of beliefs, where some of those beliefs were correct while others were incorrect. One wonders how I could possibly construe this fact as interesting in a discussion where I attack what others believe and have been challenged to justify what I believe. Such an exercise on my part could only demonstrate that I seek to confirm my beliefs with meaningless observations, in place of justifying them with reason. :| Upright BiPed
p.s. unless you can tell me what it means that is sufficient to correct what I know about it and many many more - thus the statistical improbability question. quit already Alan will ya! alan
LT: alan@334: It’s said in a later comment that UD is not a biblical exegesis forum, so I’ll respect that and not remark on Daniel 9:25. I wonder, however, why you ask the question and what you hope it will accomplish. The question is way peripheral to the larger point I was making, which boils down to different interpretive approaches generating very different readings and reading traditions. Hardly controversial. Well - you are the one claiming to have put all this to bed with you contextual analysis etc., but what it might accomplish could be beyond your imagination and I don't mean that in any way patronizing. OH - the end - maybe.... alan
I'd like to meet a rational atheist some day, just to be able to say I'd done it before I pass on. I just added that to my "bucket list." Mung
LT: One excuse after another ("various interpretations" = bla, bla, bla), obfuscate the subject, and don't deal with evidence, - just sad. AGAIN: (everyone - anyone) the type and precision of the information found in ancient pre Christ writings (regardless of who, why or language used or interpretations) is MUCH BETTER EXPLAINED as having arose by an INTELLIGENT AGENT and of such precision and character as having a weight far beyond computing ALL the constants and uniquely unlikely characteristics melding together to allow life and the observation and exploration of both life and the material construct of the universe. In this I am making a scientific / mathematical argument - NOT a "religious" one though really any belief system or position is religious having it own faith component. As I tried to point out: "And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts." So how does all this relate to atheism being rational? - With this type of information existing on planet Earth - well it just isn't, only seemingly so from the imaginations of a materialist conditioned mind set. LT: I am eager for you to help me understand why you said I am "way over my head" on this and would truly love specifics and teaching to show me as I am truly open to correction. I guess we are all ready to move on though... alan
I almost forgot: My thanks to bornagain77 (339) and kaiofocus (341) for their explanations. I’m still trying to figure it out. Box
@ LarTanner - 313
LarTanner: “It [telling people about atheism] is important to me. It’s something I value because hearing such a case articulated plainly and directly helped me immensely. It’s also something I value for my children.”
I have had an atheistic upbringing. And I vividly remember that at the age of 6 my mother explained ‘death’ to me in terms of ‘total blackness’ and ‘the end’. I also remember that I objected: ‘But that does not go for us, right mom? You and me are not going to die, right mom?’. ‘We are going to die as well as anybody else my son’, she answered. This ‘news’ was completely shocking to me. I remember that I was laying in my bed staring in the darkness and was not able to sleep. There was no reason to check this with anybody else, everything my mother said was the absolute truth. I don’t think that I exaggerate when I say that this has had a major impact on me for a very long time. But of course not all children are alike, maybe your children will benefit from atheism. Box
Murray; A hypothesis of mine is that religious people, living today, to at least 90 per cent are brought up by religious parents. What about you? Were your parents religious? Elvis4708
F/N 2: Maybe this from Plato in The Laws Bk X will help: ____________ >> Ath. . . . when one thing changes another, and that another, of such will there be any primary changing element? How can a thing which is moved by another ever be the beginning of change? Impossible. But when the self-moved changes other, and that again other, and thus thousands upon tens of thousands of bodies are set in motion, must not the beginning of all this motion be the change of the self-moving principle? . . . . self-motion being the origin of all motions, and the first which arises among things at rest as well as among things in motion, is the eldest and mightiest principle of change, and that which is changed by another and yet moves other is second. [[ . . . .] Ath. If we were to see this power existing in any earthy, watery, or fiery substance, simple or compound-how should we describe it? Cle. You mean to ask whether we should call such a self-moving power life? Ath. I do. Cle. Certainly we should. Ath. And when we see soul in anything, must we not do the same-must we not admit that this is life? [[ . . . . ] Cle. You mean to say that the essence which is defined as the self-moved is the same with that which has the name soul? Ath. Yes; and if this is true, do we still maintain that there is anything wanting in the proof that the soul is the first origin and moving power of all that is, or has become, or will be, and their contraries, when she has been clearly shown to be the source of change and motion in all things? Cle. Certainly not; the soul as being the source of motion, has been most satisfactorily shown to be the oldest of all things. Ath. And is not that motion which is produced in another, by reason of another, but never has any self-moving power at all, being in truth the change of an inanimate body, to be reckoned second, or by any lower number which you may prefer? Cle. Exactly. Ath. Then we are right, and speak the most perfect and absolute truth, when we say that the soul is prior to the body, and that the body is second and comes afterwards, and is born to obey the soul, which is the ruler? [[ . . . . ] Ath. If, my friend, we say that the whole path and movement of heaven, and of all that is therein, is by nature akin to the movement and revolution and calculation of mind, and proceeds by kindred laws, then, as is plain, we must say that the best soul takes care of the world and guides it along the good path. [[Plato here explicitly sets up an inference to design (by a good soul) from the intelligible order of the cosmos.] >> ____________ Now, remember, we are not looking for a classic deductive proof on premises that are evident and acceptable to all [after Godel that is probably a hopeless project in any case once we have any rich system], but for a worldview framework that per the alternatives is factually adequate, coherent, and elegantly simple and powerful but not simplistic in explanations, on comparative difficulties. Remember, all worldviews have clusters of first plausibles on which they stand, and that is what we are fishing for here. Now, look back above, have you seen in outline or linked the various options? Which has been most satisfioactory, why? KF kairosfocus
bornagain77; Wow! I´m impressed by all your talking. I need some time to digest and evaluate what you are saying. I´ll come back. Elvis4708
F/N: Just in brief reminder, agent explanations inherently are about self-moved first causes, and they are not explained on being necessitated or being chance driven. Indeed if you have done decision tree analysis you will see that, that is why probability distributions are not assigned to agent actions. Now that we are here, obviously it is necessary that some cause acted adequate to ground that. That is not the question. What is the question is that we are part of a credibly contingent world in a context where a beginning is also highly credible. We need to reckon with the absence of causal efficacy of non-being, and account for contingency. That leads to necessity as ground of contingent reality. That necessity has been drawn out on the terms of lacking enabling causal factors and so being eternal. Multiply by fine tuning and evident design and we are at purpose, skill, knowledge and power to effect same. Bring in our being under moral government and we have a necessary being who is the purposeful, enormously powerful, knowledgeable, rational and skillful architect and maker of the world who is moral governor as the explanation to beat. So far, nothing proffered from the atheistical side has come close. kairosfocus
LT: Your attempted dismissal -- yes it is -- on incoherence was answered, you just don't want to accept it. Also, you have been side-slipping away from the key issue I have posed in the context of a best explanation cumulative case. namely, what is the metaphysical price you have to pay? To build your world, what is it that you have to start with and what is it that you have to show? In a context where certain things have to be credibly accounted for. I find nowhere a coherent answer from you, only the isolated suggestion that you can put up a counter argument. Do so, in a factually adequate, coherent and simple but not simplistic way, please. It is that level of the challenge that is really decisive, and in general I find that too many atheists are content to play the default and object game. KF kairosfocus
LT, cutting through all the rhetoric, you state: "you give a loaded question that demands I initiate a one-man microbiological research program." No LT, I demanded no such thing. In fact, I'll do the "work" for you and show you the results of the last 4 decades of microbial research that Dr. Michael Behe has so graciously gone through the trouble of summarizing for us: “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain - Michael Behe - December 2010 Excerpt: In its most recent issue The Quarterly Review of Biology has published a review by myself of laboratory evolution experiments of microbes going back four decades.,,, The gist of the paper is that so far the overwhelming number of adaptive (that is, helpful) mutations seen in laboratory evolution experiments are either loss or modification of function. Of course we had already known that the great majority of mutations that have a visible effect on an organism are deleterious. Now, surprisingly, it seems that even the great majority of helpful mutations degrade the genome to a greater or lesser extent.,,, I dub it “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain.(that is a net 'fitness gain' within a 'stressed' environment i.e. remove the stress from the environment and the parent strain is always more 'fit') http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2010/12/the-first-rule-of-adaptive-evolution/ Or perhaps you feel that Dr. Behe is biased in all this, thus I will show you the results of Dr. Lenski's work on e-coli after 50,000 generations which is equivalent to about 1 million years of supposed human evolution:
Mutations : when benefits level off - June 2011 - (Lenski's e-coli after 50,000 generations: equivalent to about 1 million years of human evolution) Excerpt: After having identified the first five beneficial mutations combined successively and spontaneously in the bacterial population, the scientists generated, from the ancestral bacterial strain, 32 mutant strains exhibiting all of the possible combinations of each of these five mutations. They then noted that the benefit linked to the simultaneous presence of five mutations was less than the sum of the individual benefits conferred by each mutation individually. http://www2.cnrs.fr/en/1867.htm?theme1=7 New Research on Epistatic Interactions Shows "Overwhelmingly Negative" Fitness Costs and Limits to Evolution - Casey Luskin June 8, 2011 Excerpt: In essence, these studies found that there is a fitness cost to becoming more fit. As mutations increase, bacteria faced barriers to the amount they could continue to evolve. If this kind of evidence doesn't run counter to claims that neo-Darwinian evolution can evolve fundamentally new types of organisms and produce the astonishing diversity we observe in life, what does? http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/06/new_research_on_epistatic_inte047151.html
I have a hunch that the true reason you want to "dismiss' this evidence is not because you have any imagined 'moral' objection to me 'throwing tantrums', but is instead because you know full well that you cannot ground your preferred atheistic worldview within reality, and thus the only option you have is to try to deflect attention away from the sheer absence of evidence you have for your worldview. bornagain77
LarTanner #379: Your assumptions about my beliefs are erroneous. I appreciate the exchange; however, it reveals that while you want to "help others", you cannot answer (1) why one should strive to help others in the first place, other than "because I want to", and (2) how "helping others" can be meaningfully distinguished from "harming others", other than by the measurement of "enjoyment". I didn't say that I knew how mass murderers et al justified their behavior; I said they could justify it by applying your "because I want to" and "enjoyment" explanations. It appear that you have not been "deeply reflective" of your philosophy, considering your reaction to some rather elementary questions about it. I'm still waiting for anyone else up to the challenge to explain to me why they, as atheists and/or materialists, argue against theism and for atheism/materialism, and then to boldly and unflinchingly answer questions about their motivations and justifications. William J Murray
LarTanner, What's the point of textual study of you miss the message? Or is that the point?
Have you ever done any serious textual study – not of biblical texts, but of any texts – in different languages?
Why exclude Biblical texts? Why on earth are you asking him to study second temple Judaism while asking if he's done any textual study that doesn't include Biblical texts? Seems self-defeating. Mung
One more post and then I am off to enjoy a weekend that hopefully includes an easy victory for my New England Patriots. Once more into the breach, then. WJM@374: I told you my motivation and I gave you a set of guiding principles, just like you asked. Then you have the gall say I have "no principle guiding either your motivation or your use of the term “help” that differentiates between what you do and what anyone else does (under your philosophy)"? You have insight the reasons applied by mass murderers or vicious lunatics apply. I don't, and don't see how this relates to the OP. But if you think that, as a Christian, your own motivations and guiding principles are of a different order than mine, then you are simply fantasizing. BA@375: "Dismiss": it's the favorite word of the tantrum-thrower. Unless I get down on my knees, confess my sinful nature, and start singing one of those creepy psycho-sexual songs you like so much, I'm not taking your arm's-length interpretations of the years/decades of work done by others seriously enough. Ridiculously, you give a loaded question that demands I initiate a one-man microbiological research program. I may as well ask you when you stopped beating your wife: it's the same dirty tactic. I don't care at all about what you make of my philosophical posturing. At the end of the day, we're in the same boat. Go on, keep pressing that button for the elevator to come, I won't stop you. Just get off my back for not doing so myself. KF@375: I have not dismissed anything about contingent or necessary beings. On the contrary, I took the notion seriously and asked what the relationship was between the a particular, hypothesized necessary being and the contingent universe. Is that connection necessary or contingent? The consequences are spelled out for you in #333, and you are left with a brute contingency. And I do not deny that some atheists assert the impossibility of God. Some deny rhetorically and others make a more philosophic case for it. Many do not assert this, Dawkins for example. You can accuse Dawkins of being philosophically naive, and perhaps he is. Indeed, he probably is. To my knowledge, Dawkins is more interested in the God people believe in, the God of the Bible, who is a far cry from the philosopher's God. In any case, the soundness of your argument is not established, as you know. So, it's a nice argument that just needs a final kick to be convincing for me. LarTanner
PPS: Note too, that I have expressed what contingency and necessity of being are dynamically, and on our basis of experience of such orders of reality. Recall, numbers will exist even in an immaterial world, once the sort of empty set logical procedure is employed, and the operations and relationships will follow. kairosfocus
PS: Remember, we start from being in a world that self-evidently, exists. We cannot deny its reality without absurdity -- which some do not hesitate to do. So, we are living in a situation that confronts us with the challenge, why something rather than nothing, and why a world like we experience. Similarly, it is highly credible that the only cosmos we have evidence for -- the one we inhabit -- is contingent. I take it as also self evident that that which is not cannot cause that which is, i.e from nothing (non-being) nothing can come about. So, if something now is, necessarily something always was. Somewhere there is something eternal, and it is not credibly an infinite chain of contingencies, as the thermodynamics alone would have run it down into heat death by now. Far more credible is: a necessary being, and one that fits the other criteria above. kairosfocus
LT: The fire tetrahedron shows that a contingent being is one that had dependence on enabling causal factors. It shows why such a being may not come to be, why it has a beginning, and why it has an end if such a factor is withdrawn. By those facts, it immediately raises the question, what of a being that does not have such enabling factors, and it answers that such would have no beginning, no dependence and no end, it would be eternal. And to block a serious candidate -- something that is not simply a contingent being being improperly promoted (think of the pink unicorns attempted rebuttal to the modal ontological argument in one of the vid clips) -- the issue is going to be that it is impossible, not that it is not essentially different from a contingent being. All of that so far is if, then, on simple logic. Dismissing such does not make it go away. Do such beings exist? Yes, the truth in 2 + 3 = 5 is a true proposition that necessarily obtains in all possible worlds. (And of course you know that the usual understanding is, that this lives eternally in the mind of God.) Is our cosmos such a being? No, it is credibly contingent on many grounds. But that contingency points immediately to dependence on enabling factors. The root of being is going to lie in a necessary being. Formerly, many scientists thought this was the cosmos as a whole, but then along came the big bang evidence. So, we are looking at a cosmos with a beginning that cries out for a beginner. Dismissing such does not make it go away. Branes, oscillating and budding univcerses, quantum fluctuations, declaring such to be pulling a cosmos out of nothing, etc show that we are really in need of a necessary being, and trying to dismiss such does not make it go away. Add in things like the fine tuning of reality and out being credibly under moral government, as well as the astonishing unity and utility of mathematics and we see ourselves pointing to MIND, designing mind, as the root of being. Now, you want to put up objections on claims that necessary beings are not necessary or don't exist. Okay, produce your evidence, not a dismissive summary or an appeal to opinion or consensus. And, remember, I am NOT offering deductive proofs that depend on assent to propositions serving as premises, I am pointing to a best explanation framework overall, and I am pointing out that a contingent cosmos cries out for a necessary being as root of its existence, where also there are simultaneously other issues crying out for explanation. A very serious candidate is God, a necessary being and one who grounds the fine tuned cosmos and the morals and our own minds. But all of this is on a tangent, you were trying to deny that atheists are committed to the impossibility of God. If what you are trying to say is that necessary beings is a category that is incoherent or empty, kindly show us how that is so. And do so in a way that retains the credibility of your knowing, reasoning and consciousness, and does not deny that we live in a real and credibly contingent world in which at least some moral obligations -- thus moral government -- are real. KF kairosfocus
Now LT, I noticed that you dismissed the empirical science we now have by saying 'you are not a scientist' as if this excuses you from the obligation you have of grounding your preferred atheistic belief within reality, and moreover you offered snide comments to my linking of the broadly accepted empirical results of others. LT, since you refuse to provide empirical warrant that your preferred atheistic worldview is grounded in reality, just what am I to make of all your philosophical posturing save to think that you are debating that you think your dream is more enjoyable than someone else's dream is? So What? I don't care what you think of your dream, I only care to see what reality actually is!,,, For instance I brought up functional information because, despite challenging atheists, for several years now, I have not seen any convincing evidence whatsoever for even one, JUST ONE, single novel functional protein worth's of functional information being generated by 'natural' processes, but, on the other hand, I know for a fact that conscious intelligence, something that I experience first hand, can generate it. You yourself provide empirical evidence that conscious intelligence can generate far more functional information than has ever been observed, or that ever be reasonably expected, to be generated by the entire material processes of the universe over the entire history of the universe. And seeing that the simplest bacteria on earth has an estimated 10^12 bits of information in it (well over the library of congress has), this should give you a big clue that your atheistic 'dream' is not panning out for how reality actually is!. Moreover LT, quantum mechanics has consistently, and strongly, indicated that 'non-local' consciousness precedes wave collapse to a particle state. Needless to say, all this should be a tremendous wake up call to your atheistic dreamland state, but no what do we get from you, and other self assured atheists as yourself? We get blatant denialism and willful distortion of the plain facts that we now have in hand. This is simply completely shameful for anyone who contends they are 'only' wanting to get to the truth. bornagain77
LT said:
I don’t know if anything I’ve ever said on the internet in these discussions has helped another or not. At one point in this thread, you said something I took to mean you enjoyed the dialogue too. So, perhaps we have helped each other simply by talking.
LT, the line of questioning isn't about whether or not anything you've said or done has actually helped anyone or not; it's about the motivation of wanting to help others, and the principle that guides how one sorts the difference between "helping" and "harming". In my philosophy, "enjoying" a thing, or "wanting" a thing, is not a sound principle by which to arbit whether any action of mine can be reasonably considered "helping" anyone. Someone may want to torture children; they may enjoy torturing children. Does that mean they are helping the children? Someone may want to continually smoke crack with their friends; their friend and them may enjoy doing it. Is the first guy "helping" his friend in any reasonable sense? You told me once in this thread not to assume that you hadn't deeply reflected upon your atheistic philosophy; yet here you are stymied to give me an accounting of your motivation for helping others other than "I want to", and unable to provide any rationale that justifies your use of the term "help" in regards to your activities, other than that you enjoy it. Since there is no principle guiding either your motivation or your use of the term "help" that differentiates between what you do and what anyone else does (under your philosophy), then doing what you do under the guise of the term "helping others" is nothing more than an empty attempt to characterize yourself in a positive light by using terms that have no substantive meaning in your philosophy - other than, "because I want to" and "because I enjoy it". Reasons that any mass murderer or vicious lunatic could equally apply. I don't say these things to attack you; I say them to reveal to you that you may not have reflected as deeply upon your philosophy as you might think, and that further thought may be warranted - unless, of course, you are satisfied living by the behavioral principles of "because I want to" and "because I enjoy it". William J Murray
Apparently, Elvis' claim that Science informs logically-minded observers of the falsity in theism, is a claim he/she doesn't wish to defend. Upright BiPed
WJM, I would not say there is a single guiding principle. There's desire, a subjective/subjunctive determination of what would benefit others, time relative to other activities in my life, a need to interact with people, a chance to learn and/or argue. I can't speak to why others supply the information they do in the manner they do.
IOW, when you boil it down in your philosophy, aren’t you just doing whatever you want to do, and then calling it “helping” others?
I don't know if anything I've ever said on the internet in these discussions has helped another or not. At one point in this thread, you said something I took to mean you enjoyed the dialogue too. So, perhaps we have helped each other simply by talking. LarTanner
LT said:
I am trying to answer your question directly. I don’t know what you are getting at when I answer and it’s somehow not good enough. I help be cause I want to. it’s my personal preference. I like the subject matter and I like discussing it. I don’t know what else to tell you. is it possible that you are looking for a particular response so that you can make a larger point? If so, please recall our earlier discussion on ulterior motives.
I'm not looking for ulterior motives; I'm trying to understand your motive, trying to understand the guiding principle behind your trying to help others and what quality makes it "helping" as opposed to, say, "harming". Above you say, "I help because I want to." Is "I want to" the justifying principle or reason that informs why you do what you do, and is it the justification for defining those actions as "helping others" by providing them the information you about atheism/theism? If so, how is that principle - according to your philosophy - different from the reason why theists supply the information they do? Is what priests and popes and ayatollahs and inquisitors do not "what they want to do" (as per your explanation) and then, as such, are they not equally entitled (via your principle of "I want to = action = helping") to call what they are doing "helping others"? IOW, when you boil it down in your philosophy, aren't you just doing whatever you want to do, and then calling it "helping" others? If not, then what principle beyond "what I want" makes it different from what anyone else wants/does? William J Murray
BA, How could I hope to demonstrate such a thing myself? I am not a scientist and not a mathematician. In your request, you use language that already smuggles in the concepts that need to be elucidated: and I'm the one who gets accused of playing games with words! All you and I have are our experiences, observations, reflections, and the work of others. You think I'm too aggressive, assertive, confrontational, assured, or whatever. Maybe I am. I don't think it's blind faith, as you charge. I hope that at least some of my comments give you reason to think that there is a little depth to my views. So, if you think I'm trying to tell you what reality is or that my view is more or less rational than yours...well, I don't think that's the case and it's not what I'm going for anyway. No offense, but I prefer trying to discuss these things instead of linking to a bunch of sites and papers in what to me appears as a giant act of ventriloquism. Keep pressing that button in the lobby...that's what makes the elevator come faster. LarTanner
LT, perhaps instead on telling others about what your preference for reality ought to be, and how it is not irrational to hold a atheistic worldview, (in fact I get the impression that you are quite smug in your belief that atheism is better than other worldviews) ,, perhaps you could be a little more specific and clearly demonstrate how blind unintelligent 'natural' processes can generate functional information so that, at least I, don't think you are operating on blind faith that would a suicide bomber to shame? bornagain77
I should just give up on block quotes hehehehehe.... Your answer to your question JWTruthInLove is; It is deciding which account of the context-sensitivity of knowledge is favored by the balance of considerations. Andre
JWTruthInLove You say;
It is deciding which account of the context-sensitivity of knowledge is favored by the balance of considerations.
Andre
To answer as many comments as I can: alan@334: It's said in a later comment that UD is not a biblical exegesis forum, so I'll respect that and not remark on Daniel 9:25. I wonder, however, why you ask the question and what you hope it will accomplish. The question is way peripheral to the larger point I was making, which boils down to different interpretive approaches generating very different readings and reading traditions. Hardly controversial. KF@335: We basically agree. The larger traditions of Judaism and Christianity boil down to a(n irreconcilable) conflict of interpretive strategy. The figure of Jesus himself is not so much the issue, at least from a Jewish perspective. alan@336: I am not and have never been a Christian. Barry@337: Surely you see that your dancing to divine volition does not escape the problem I highlighted in #333. Your problem is with the philosophy you're trying to wield as a sledgehammer, not with my language. Weak appeals to my "bedazzling with language" and "definitional games" are but a ploy to cover over your own frustration with being unable to close your case. KF@340: I have to confess that as soon as I wrote #333 i knew the fire tetrahedron was coming. You also completely avoid the specific problem I highlight in #333. Surely you know the controversies on necessary beings, whether they are really beings and/or really necessary. That you've made up your mind on the matter doesn't mean the matter is settled. Mung@345: The point is that through textual study, especially textual study, one sees concretely that the information is never "just there." Mung@346: have you just gone "full special," as the kids say, or do you have a conspiracy theory to introduce? WJM@347: I am trying to answer your question directly. I don't know what you are getting at when I answer and it's somehow not good enough. I help be cause I want to. it's my personal preference. I like the subject matter and I like discussing it. I don't know what else to tell you. is it possible that you are looking for a particular response so that you can make a larger point? If so, please recall our earlier discussion on ulterior motives. Mung@348: Again into the realm of "full special." I cannot take you seriously. Andre:@350: Sure, mate. Man will never do it. People will never walk on the moon. Yatta, yatta. Let's now sing "How great is our dog," or however the song goes. Have you met Mung? Talk with him. I think you'd like each other. LarTanner
Elvis4708 @ 360:
1. (Ethnic) intolerance, 2. Gender discrimination, 3. Divine and prophetic sayings in conflict with human reason and democratic standards, 4. Time used for religious practice could be used better 5. Religious leaders do not take responsibility for their extremists´ doings
Telling me that you're trying to stop Y because it does X only moves the question back to why you're trying to stop X. If I accept the above for the sake of argument, why should you seek to put a stop to those things? I'm not asking you what you're trying to accomplish; I'm asking you why you're trying to accomplish it. William J Murray
Moreover Elvis, you also have this little 'front loading' problem confronting your preferred Deistic model: The following article shows why the Deistic model of 'front loading' into the initial conditions of the universe, is insufficient to explain the appearance of any subsequent life on earth:
The Front-loading Fiction - Dr. Robert Sheldon - 2009 Excerpt: Historically, the argument for front-loading came from Laplacian determinism based on a Newtonian or mechanical universe--if one could control all the initial conditions, then the outcome was predetermined. First quantum mechanics, and then chaos-theory has basically destroyed it, since no amount of precision can control the outcome far in the future. (The exponential nature of the precision required to predetermine the outcome exceeds the information storage of the medium.),,, Even should God have infinite knowledge of the outcome of such a biological algorithm, the information regarding its outcome cannot be contained within the system itself. http://procrustes.blogtownhall.com/2009/07/01/the_front-loading_fiction.thtml
A few more notes along that line:
Is "Front Loaded" Evolution Plausible? - Stephen Meyer - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5337990 "Limits to Self-Organization (From Initial Conditions)" - podcast Excerpt: Dr. Johns shows that Darwinian evolution is actually a type of a self-organizing process, and that it is limited in the types of biological structures it can produce. http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2012-07-09T17_09_44-07_00
But, Elvis, why should you even personally prefer the Deistic model to be correct over the correct Theistic model? I see no advantage over the nihilism of atheism. ,, It is literally beyond our greatest wishes and aspirations that the Creator of this universe should actually care about each of us rather than to disregard us as trash! Music and verse
Casting Crowns - Who am I? with lyrics http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt7OZyBj5Ik Psalm 8:3-4 When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place, what is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him?
bornagain77
Elvis4708, It may, or may not, interest you to know that modern science has confirmed the Theistic, not Deistic, worldview as correct. In what I consider an absolutely fascinating discovery, 4-dimensional (4D) space-time was created in the Big Bang and continues to 'expand equally in all places':
Where is the centre of the universe?: Excerpt: There is no centre of the universe! According to the standard theories of cosmology, the universe started with a "Big Bang" about 14 thousand million years ago and has been expanding ever since. Yet there is no centre to the expansion; it is the same everywhere. The Big Bang should not be visualized as an ordinary explosion. The universe is not expanding out from a centre into space; rather, the whole universe is expanding and it is doing so equally at all places, as far as we can tell. http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/GR/centre.html
Thus from a 3-dimensional (3D) perspective, any particular 3D spot in the universe is to be considered just as 'center of the universe' as any other particular spot in the universe is to be considered 'center of the universe'. This centrality found for any 3D place in the universe is because the universe is a 4D expanding hypersphere, analogous in 3D to the surface of an expanding balloon. All points on the surface are moving away from each other, and every point is central, if that’s where you live.
Centrality of Earth Within The 4-Dimensional Space-Time of General Relativity - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/8421879
As well Quantum Mechanics has now shown that the Quantum Waves of photons collapse to each unique point of conscious observation in the universe:
Dr. Quantum - Double Slit Experiment & Entanglement - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4096579 Double Slit Experiment – Explained By Prof Anton Zeilinger (a leader in quantum teleportation breakthroughs) – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6101627/ 1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. [14] 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. Three intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries: Wheeler’s Delayed Choice: Leggett’s Inequalities) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G_Fi50ljF5w_XyJHfmSIZsOcPFhgoAZ3PRc_ktY8cFo/edit The Galileo Affair and the true "Center of the Universe" Excerpt: I find it extremely interesting, and strange, that quantum mechanics tells us that instantaneous quantum wave collapse to its 'uncertain' 3D state is centered on each individual conscious observer in the universe, whereas, 4D space-time cosmology (General Relativity) tells us each 3D point in the universe is central to the expansion of the universe. These findings of modern science are pretty much exactly what we would expect to see if this universe were indeed created, and sustained, from a higher dimension by a omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal Being who knows everything that is happening everywhere in the universe at the same time. These findings certainly seem to go to the very heart of the age old question asked of many parents by their children, “How can God hear everybody’s prayers at the same time?”,,, i.e. Why should the expansion of the universe, or the quantum wave collapse of the entire universe, even care that you or I, or anyone else, should exist? Only Theism, Christian Theism in particular, offers a rational explanation as to why you or I, or anyone else, should have such undeserved significance in such a vast universe. [15] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BHAcvrc913SgnPcDohwkPnN4kMJ9EDX-JJSkjc4AXmA/edit Psalm 33:13-15 The LORD looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men. From the place of His dwelling He looks on all the inhabitants of the earth; He fashions their hearts individually; He considers all their works.
Moreover Elvis, besides caring about each of us individually, God is literally 'continuously infinite' to each and every photon in the universe': i.e. God continually 'upholds' the universe in His infinite power:
Particle and Wave-Like Behavior of Light Measured Simultaneously (Nov. 1, 2012) Excerpt: Dr Peruzzo, Research Fellow at the Centre for Quantum Photonics, said: "The measurement apparatus detected strong nonlocality, which certified that the photon behaved simultaneously as a wave and a particle in our experiment. This represents a strong refutation of models in which the photon is either a wave or a particle." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121101141107.htm Explaining Information Transfer in Quantum Teleportation: Armond Duwell †‡ University of Pittsburgh Excerpt: In contrast to a classical bit, the description of a (photon) qubit requires an infinite amount of information. The amount of information is infinite because two real numbers are required in the expansion of the state vector of a two state quantum system (Jozsa 1997, 1) http://www.cas.umt.edu/phil/faculty/duwell/DuwellPSA2K.pdf Quantum Computing – Stanford Encyclopedia Excerpt: Theoretically, a single qubit can store an infinite amount of information, yet when measured (and thus collapsing the Quantum Wave state) it yields only the classical result (0 or 1),,, http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-quantcomp/#2.1
bornagain77
Elvis: I think this gets close to the heart of the motivating force that drives a lot of what we are seeing:
I do not want to take spirituality from people, but I want to dismantle religions from all sorts of political power and to support reason
We have too often been taught a jaundiced view of history that sees it as irrational, dangerous to liberty and blames it for ever so many of the troubles of history. Religion as cultural scapegoat -- oops, that is a religious image -- or, as bogeyman. And yet, somehow it too often does not register that the religious impulse is a very dominant one in human history and culture, and that it -- personally, as a worldview and motivating context for ethics and reform, in liberation struggles, in families and communities, in institutions and in the academy -- has been the root of a LOT of what is right, not just what is wrong. That is, there is a major balance problem. The lack of it, that is. This is similar to the way that Capitalism and Western Civilisation, or the blue eyed, blond or red haired devils [too often with a certain kind of nose held typical of a certain particular caucasoid ethnicity] have come in as the stereotypical scapegoats for the world's ills. I think the time has more than come for a more balanced, less polarised, more understanding view of the human predicament, and for an appreciation that is critically aware but fair minded and better informed. Bernard Lewis, in his epochal essay on the roots of Muslim rage, put it well:
. . . The accusations are familiar. We of the West are accused of sexism, racism, and imperialism, institutionalized in patriarchy and slavery, tyranny and exploitation. To these charges, and to others as heinous, we have no option but to plead guilty -- not as Americans, nor yet as Westerners, but simply as human beings, as members of the human race. In none of these sins are we the only sinners, and in some of them we are very far from being the worst. The treatment of women in the Western world, and more generally in Christendom, has always been unequal and often oppressive, but even at its worst it was rather better than the rule of polygamy and concubinage that has otherwise been the almost universal lot of womankind on this planet . . . . In having practiced sexism, racism, and imperialism, the West was merely following the common practice of mankind through the millennia of recorded history. Where it is distinct from all other civilizations is in having recognized, named, and tried, not entirely without success, to remedy these historic diseases. And that is surely a matter for congratulation, not condemnation. We do not hold Western medical science in general, or Dr. Parkinson and Dr. Alzheimer in particular, responsible for the diseases they diagnosed and to which they gave their names.
Of course, for much of the time when both the problems were going on and the reforms were being made, this civilisation was known as Christendom. And of course, many of the perps and most of the reformers went to church; often to different churches in very different degrees of spiritual health (cf. Rev 1 - 3 on that . . .). I think that has led to a post hoc problem that has improperly assigned the blame, one driven by what comes across to me as a wrongheaded view of the human heart and predicament. I usually sum it up more or less like this: we are finite, fallible, morally struggling/fallen, and too often ill willed, rage-driven [a notoriously blinding emotion] and closed minded. So, we would be well advised, to pause and listen to one of those great religious teachers, who happens to be the most powerful reformer of all time, in his most famous sermon:
Matt 7:1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. 6 “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.
Notice, the careful balance. First attend to planks in our own eyes, then seeing clearly, help others. However, beware of the pigs, who don't know or care about the difference between pearls and acorns, and have no value on pearls. Finding pearls not acorns, they become angry and go into attack mode -- and I have been astonished at the dagger-like tusks on big pigs [which can be as big as a lion!], I would call them FANGS. With that view, we are in a better position to see that the problem lies in our own desperately deceitful and sinful hearts. Turning from this to the path of virtue and right and truth step by persistent step is the way forward, genuinely forward. Then, we can see that the problem is not that corrupt power seized control of churches, but corrupt power. That can seize control of parliaments, universities, government bureaucracies, police offices, prosecutors' offices etc today. Indeed, if you look on the history of Nazi Germany, you will see that Wiemar Germany had a lovely constitution, but the people were willing to let the monster in the door -- thinking they could control it and get back to stability, progress and prosperity. BIG MISTAKE. It seems they don't properly teach that history today: a failed democracy that led to a dark night of tyranny. Over in Russia, the monarchy discredited itself, and in crude summary the moderate socialists took over under Kerensky who tried to institute a more progressive version -- involving stakeholder participative groups known as soviets -- on what looks like something that emerged form a view of the British model, constitutional monarchy. Then he declared a republic in the fall of 1917, unwisely thought that he had no enemies on the left (the right was the obvious target . . . ) and he managed to alienate those he would have needed to save him from what was coming. The Bolsheviks then led a coup in October (Julian Calendar) and Kerensky could not muster enough force in enough time to fight for the provisional government, was defeated and exiled. Civil war followed and then a ruthless, radically secularist atheistical totalitarian dictatorship that had power to select its successors. Dozens of millions dead internally. Now, are these familiar stories to us? Or, do we have little or no knowledge of them? But, these are the stores behind the major alternatives of C20 to the Judaeo-Christian worldview derived democratic republic or constitutional monarchy that seeks to govern based on law that embeds accountability, checks and balances not power in the hands of unaccountable men. What is that telling us about the hidden curriculum in our formal and informal education systems? Why is it we are so often so preoccupied with the dangers of "religion" but not with the dangers of secularism and occultic neopaganism, fascism [which is a LEFT wing, statist, politically messianistic system] and radical statist power? Yes there can be such a thing as a theocratic, church-state alliance dictatorship, just as a secularist one. The problem is loss of liberty and establishment of unaccountable power in the hands of sinners. Where the set of sinners and the set of human beings are so overlapped that all of us are vulnerable. We can also point out that democracies can go out5 of control, doing folly based on losing sight of reality, and that they can be tempted to oppress minorities. That points to the importance of checks, balances and rule of law that enshrines liberty and mutual respect. Which brings up the need for ethics to guide all, and for a grounding of ethics. Thence the IS-OUGHT gap that is so characteristic of secularist systems of thought, and the point that there is but one place where OUGHT can be successfully inserted into a worldview, its foundational reality. Where by far and away the best candidate for this is the inherently good God our creator and loving Lord. Who would perforce be worthy of worship and service in love, truth purity and spiritual power. Which shows us the role of reformed, balanced, wholesome religion in society. So, can we please think again? Before, we have to relearn the lessons of the Russian and German revolutions oft he century just past the hard way? When it comes to supporting reason, we need to ask, what is reason and what grounds it. We can rest assured that evolutionary materialism, as has been outlined above, ends in self-referential incoherence on the subject of the reasoning, accurately understanding, warranting and knowing mind. if you doubt me, look carefully at the sort of objections that are made to this observation on where genetic and sociocultural determinism in a world of chance and necessity lead us. The God who is Reason himself, who is Communication himself, who made a world on principles of order that we know as laws of nature and can identify through investigation, who sustains nature by his powerful word, is a very powerful basis for reason and reasonableness. Look above, and ask yourself, does the ignorant, stupid insane or wicked taunt fit the theists you are seeing? Does someone who sees in mathematics a powerful rational order reflective of the architect of reality sound to you like someone who is likely to be irrational? Does someone who stands up for the priority of first principles of right reason and insists on every tub must stand on its own bottom worldview grounding sound like an irrational idiot? Does someone who champions democracy under sound law with checks and balances sound like an enemy of liberty? Not to mention someone who has not only studied science at graduate level but who taught it at secondary and college levels, and who actually developed degree programmes for others and is presently trying to found a cyber based college with computer science as a major feature sound like a superstitious, benighted, religion-maddened, theocratic totalitarian would be censor and inquisiiton torturer, a enemy of reason and progress? Or, are we seeing some very nasty stereotypical strawmen set up for convenient pummelling? Please, think again. KF kairosfocus
@Andre: How does one objectivly define "greater"? Aren't relations like greater, lesser and equals context-sensitive? JWTruthInLove
Murray; In due time I will deliver answers to your question on my recently opened homesite elvestedt.se. Some "quickies"; 1. (Ethnic) intolerance, 2. Gender discrimination, 3. Divine and prophetic sayings in conflict with human reason and democratic standards, 4. Time used for religious practice could be used better 5. Religious leaders do not take responsibility for their extremists´ doings Elvis4708
Dear KRock, I´m perfectly aware of the existence of different deistic interpretations and that there deists that congregate regularly, performing rituals etc. But these movements are few, tiny small and have no ambitions to get involved with politics. Deism is philosophy, an intellectual standing and will therefore never be a mass movement. No, belief in providence is not necessary for the existence of religions. But the belief in gods whose activities in one way or the other affect man´s earthly life is. Generally; the common believer wants divine help in her daily struggle on earth. That´s what creates religions! Elvis4708
Graham 2 When something is "non" it does not describe what it is, but it describes what it is not, and in your example its describing that it is not green.... Andre
Graham I do not see it as inferior, that is an assumption on your part, nothing can never be greater than something and non-intelligence is exactly that, its nothing. You're taking advise from Richard Dawkins? LOL! Andre
Andre I think by 'greater' you really mean 'more impressive' or something similarly vague. Intelligence is such an abstract concept its impossible to say it is 'greater' or 'lesser' than something else. The question is meaningless. Even worse, 'non-Intelligent' is a non-concept! I suspect that as soon as you see the 'non' in front of something, you assume it is inferior in some way. Is 'green' greater than 'non green' ? Sorry, this discussion is simply not coherent. As Dawkins frequently puts it, just because it is gramatically correct English, doesnt mean it has to make sense. Graham2
Graham 2 1.) Intelligence "The aggregate or global capacity of the individual to act purposefully, to think rationally, and to deal effectively with his environment." David Wechsler 2.) non-intelligence Incapable of thought thus, no rational thought, no acting purposefully, and unable to deal with its environment. So since intelligence does give us the ability to act purposefully, and deal with our environment it does stand to reason that it is greater than non-intelligence. The fact that we can't even weigh it (amount) or measure its density (intensity) should be an indicator to you that its non-material. I can weigh a rock, I can measure its density but not intelligence. So intelligence therefor must be transcendent. And so man, as existing transcendence abounding in and surpassing toward possibilities, is a creature of distance. Only through the primordial distances he establishes toward all being in his transcendence does a true nearness to things flourish in him.” ? Martin Heidegger, The Essence of Reasons Andre
I dont think Ive ever seen the goal-posts move so fast. Anyway, lets apply the definition of 'greater' that you so helpfully provided ... Is intelligence more or less 'intense' than non-intelligence ? Is Intelligence of more or less 'amount' than non-Intelligence ? etc. To save time, perhaps you could simply define how Intelligence is 'greater' than non-Intelligence. Graham2
Graham Greatness is of course not the same as greater.... nice try. Funny you should ask about happiness because just like love and beauty your precious materialistic science that explains everything and is the only truth and reality can not measure any of it. But lets get back to the original question you've been avoiding. What is greater? Intelligence or non-intelligence? Andre
Andre: So your units of 'greatness' are Joules or some measure of energy ? Is that right ? My point was, how do you measure 'greatness' ? Say I give someone a present, and they are pleased. Is the effect (happiness) measurable ? In Joules ? Graham2
Correction Graham 2 Yes indeed the effect does seem to appear “greater” but is in fact not because part of the cause was the time and energy used to setup the falling domino’s in the first place. So in this instance much more energy was spent on the cause than what was spent on the effect. What I’m trying to show you is that an effect can never* be greater than its cause as for the meaning of greater here goes…. greater comparative of great Adjective Of an extent, amount, or intensity considerably above the normal or average. Adverb Excellently; very well. Synonyms major – larger Hope that helps! Andre
LarTanner And here is a fantastic read on why machines will never be what you might hope them to be. http://www.abc.net.au/science/slab/allen/story.htm "There are roughly 10 billion neurones in a typical brain, and each neurone is, on average, connected to 1000 others. We still have very little idea of how this network of cells forms a cognitive mind, so the task of emulating it is extremely difficult. No one knows if it is even possible. " Andre
Graham 2 Yes indeed the effect does seem to appear "greater" but is in fact not because part of the cause was the time and energy used to setup the falling domino's in the first place. So in this instance much more energy was spent on the cause than what was spent on the effect. What I'm trying to show you is that an effect will be greater than its cause as for the meaning of greater here goes.... greater comparative of great Adjective Of an extent, amount, or intensity considerably above the normal or average. Adverb Excellently; very well. Synonyms major - larger Hope that helps! Andre
You insist that there is something a machine cannot do. If you tell me precisely what it is a machine cannot do, then I can always make a machine which will do just that!
LOL! Really? Where to start. Make a perpetual motion machine. Make a machine that can make a machine that is not a machine. Make a machine that travels into the past and makes a machine that sucks up all available energy. and on and on and on Mung
LT said:
It is important to me. It’s something I value because hearing such a case articulated plainly and directly helped me immensely. It’s also something I value for my children.
You've only reiterated that it is important to you to help others. That you were helped in the past by something similar doesn't answer why you help; it only answers why you choose this form of help. Why should you help others at all? I'm not being facetious; you implied that you are deeply reflective about your views. If so, then please explain to me why you want to help people. Can you explain it in terms of your philosphy? Elvis4708 said:
My answer is this; I do not want to take spirituality from people, but I want to dismantle religions from all sorts of political power and to support reason. I think the deistic way is the right way to go in these endeavors. If the ordinary man was convinced that there perhaps is a god, but that this god doesn´t care about him, then religions would collapse. That´s good enough for me!
Why do you want to accomplish the collapse of religion? William J Murray
LarTanner:
That Hebrew versus OT distinction is hardly my own invention, and the the interpretive lenses I’m bringing in include those of Second-Temple era Judaism (Judaisms, really) and early Christianity (Christianities, really). There’s more things in the heaven and earth of that history than you’ve dreamt of.
Well, multiple Christianities in the midst of multiple Judaisms. Seems that they fight right in with the times. But why do you call the Judaisms "Judaisms" and the Christianities "Christianities" if there were no identifiable attributes that they shared, and by what basis did you decide that any particular Christianity was not just one amongst other Judaisms? And, might I ask you, how was it that Judaism (singular) was protected by the Roman empire and Christianity (singular) was not? How on earth did they decide who to throw to the lions!? The Romans just don't seem to have had the same problems you have. Go figure. Mung
LarTanner:
This statement tells me you’re in way over your head and don’t know it. Have you ever done any serious textual study–not of biblical texts, but of any texts–in different languages?
Does analysis of blog posts count? But really, what an absurd milestone. I have at best a very rudimentary familiarity with Hebrew and only slightly more in Greek. Serious textual study in the original languages? Hah. So I, as do most people, have to rely upon scholars. Not just in Hebrew and Greek, but in almost every other aspect of life. And in many cases we have to rely upon popularizations of scholars. So freaking what!? And for any particular scholar you chose to trot out I could probably trot out a scholar who has a contrary view. And if he had exposure to serious textual study in the original languages and so did you, do you really think the two of you would just auto-magically agree? Dream on. It is the wise amongst us who will readily admit that we do not know as much as we ought. It will motivate us to strive to more knowledge. None of which makes any sense given atheism. Mung
@Elvis I'm not intending to be rude here, but you’d be wise to read up on deism before you suggest a deistic God could never form the basis of a religion. I’ll refer you too this website. http://moderndeism.com/index.html You’re right though; divine providence is a necessary condition for the existence of monotheism, that being said, it’s certainly not a necessary condition for the existence of a religion. KRock
F/N: BTW, notice how mathematics is actually independent of material entities, i.e. it is a wholly mental construct, that happens to anchor down to experienced reality through the sheer logical necessity [that word again!] of the consequences of something being so in this world? Favourite case, one objection to the Young wave theory of interference was that a small spherical object would have a dot of light in the middle of its shadow. That was imagined absurd, a disproof by contradiction. Until someone checked. You guessed it, yup, the dot is there all right! The "unreasonable" effectiveness of maths strikes again, and of course I have already held forth on how the unity and power of that math points to the mind behind it all . . . who was it was mocking math as a compass needle pointing to the ultimate mathematician again? KF kairosfocus
BA and BA77: Thanks a lot! KF kairosfocus
Box: Sorry, that got somewhat technical. The possible worlds talk is one way of bringing out what is contingent and what is necessary. A possible world is logically possible, needs not be actual. A possible being exists in at least one possible world. In your case you exist in the actual one. A necessary being candidate, is conceived of as necessary but may not be real. But if such a being exists in one possible world, it exists in all possible worlds. That is another way of saying that the block to a necessary being candidate is that it is impossible or it is misconceived. The truth in 2 + 3 = 5 is in the relevant sense a being, and it is such that in no possible world will this truth fail. Not even an empty one that has no material objects in it. For, we can construct numbers out of sets that start with the empty set {} and build up from there as collections, equated to numbers. Then we can define operations and off we go. More than that, this did not begin at any time, nor can it cease. It is an eternal necessary truth, mind you a bit trivial! (BTW, there is an argument to God from the eternality of truth, and ending up as viewing such as eternally residing in the mind of god.) By contrast 2 + 3 = 4 cannot hold in any possible world. it is impossible. The point about god is that such a being would by definition be eternal, and that means not having external necessary factors that have to be "on" for it to exist. It is a serious candidate necessary being and so the objector to god has the choice of showing impossible or facing the implications of a possible necessary being. You may want to work your way through here on. This and this have a discussion that may also be helpful. Failing that, get out a box of matches and start playing around with them to understand necessity and sufficiency of causal factors. Then work out the logic of a suggested being that has no necessary causal factors. (I am sorry about how one word has to do more than one job in close proximity.) KF kairosfocus
LT: This is not a matter of playing definitional games. It is inherent to the theistic concept of god that god is a necessary being, and to the philosophical one as a result. You can debate all you want about another concept that does not embrace being the eternal -- as in no beginning, no end -- root of being, but it will not be the same. Maybe, as a pause, I need to discuss on causal factors much as I do in the NCSTS unit on building a worldview. Start with a fire. The necessary and sufficient causal conditions include: heat, fuel, oxidiser and heat-evolving chain reaction. Block any one and no fire begins or can be sustained. This is the fire tetrahedron, just ask a fire fighter. The fire is a contingent being, dependent on the four factors, each of which is necessary, all four being together sufficient. If you doubt, halon fire extinguishers interfere with the chain rxn. That is we have some on/off factors that must be on and a sufficient cluster, or no fire. Fires can begin, are sustained and can end. Now, ask what of a different class of being that has no external necessary causal factors? It does not go on or off, it is eternal, and it is present in all possible worlds. The truth in 2 + 3 = 5 is a simple case in point. There is no possible world that this does not hold in. If a world is possible this holds and it holds in the actual world. Now, consider a candidate: 2 + 3 = 4. There is no possible world in which it holds. It is impossible on pain of patent absurdity. That is where the issue of god lies. If inherently a candidate necessary being and possible, then actual. Conceptually, as eternal root of being, obviously a candidate. So, the issue is, possible or impossible? The older atheist argument on evils said, self-contradictory so impossible. That has collapsed as discussed. The logical positivists tied the route of ruling meaningless that which is not subject to empirical tests of verification or is not analytic, in crude terms. The various forms of the verification or verifiability principle then proceeded to cut its own throat. As to the connexion between god and the universe, it is the obvious one: god is creator; the ground and ultimate cause of its being. You seem to miss out the whole point of personhood too, persons are first causes, self-moved actuators of chains of consequences. Persons act by their power of choice as the start point for action. The eternal god would be the ultimate case in point. That may be a problem for a chance plus necessity materialist view but that is a view that then runs into all sorts of problems because of its attempt to extract persons with knowing, warranting, reasoning consciously aware minds from matter, even brain matter. As, this exchange between Crick and Johnson shows:
Sir Francis Crick is on record, in his 1994 The Astonishing Hypothesis: . . . that "You", your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll's Alice might have phrased: "You're nothing but a pack of neurons." This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing. Philip Johnson has replied that Sir Francis should have therefore been willing to preface his works thusly: "I, Francis Crick, my opinions and my science, and even the thoughts expressed in this book, consist of nothing more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules." Johnson then acidly commented: “[[t]he plausibility of materialistic determinism requires that an implicit exception be made for the theorist.” [[Reason in the Balance, 1995.]
See the problem? KF kairosfocus
KF if you will allow me to try to answer Box: The materialistic conjecture of an infinity of universes to 'explain away' the fine tuning of this one also insures, through the ontological argument, the 100% probability of the existence of God:
God Is Not Dead Yet – William Lane Craig – Page 4 The ontological argument. Anselm’s famous argument has been reformulated and defended by Alvin Plantinga, Robert Maydole, Brian Leftow, and others. God, Anselm observes, is by definition the greatest being conceivable. If you could conceive of anything greater than God, then that would be God. Thus, God is the greatest conceivable being, a maximally great being. So what would such a being be like? He would be all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good, and he would exist in every logically possible world. But then we can argue: 1. It is possible that a maximally great being (God) exists. 2. If it is possible that a maximally great being exists, then a maximally great being exists in some possible world. 3. If a maximally great being exists in some possible world, then it exists in every possible world. 4. If a maximally great being exists in every possible world, then it exists in the actual world. 5. Therefore, a maximally great being exists in the actual world. 6. Therefore, a maximally great being exists. 7. Therefore, God exists. Now it might be a surprise to learn that steps 2–7 of this argument are relatively uncontroversial. Most philosophers would agree that if God’s existence is even possible, then he must exist. So the whole question is: Is God’s existence possible? The atheist has to maintain that it’s impossible that God exists. He has to say that the concept of God is incoherent, like the concept of a married bachelor or a round square. But the problem is that the concept of God just doesn’t appear to be incoherent in that way. The idea of a being which is all-powerful, all knowing, and all-good in every possible world seems perfectly coherent. And so long as God’s existence is even possible, it follows that God must exist. http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/july/13.22.html?start=4
Where the has gained purchase is in the materialist/atheist appeal to the multiverse (infinite possible worlds) to 'explain away' the extreme fine tuning of this universe, the materialist/atheist, without realizing it, ends up conceding the necessary premise to the ontological argument and thus guarantees sucess of the argument and the 100% probability of God's existence! I like the concluding comment about the ontological argument from the following Dr. Plantinga video:
"God then is the Being that couldn't possibly not exit." Ontological Argument – Dr. Plantinga (3:50 minute mark) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCXvVcWFrGQ Is God a Necessary Being? (Alvin Plantinga) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndmnIs2gMzI
This following video deals with many of the technical objections that atheist/materialist have tried to raise to the ontological argument:
The Ontological Argument (The Introduction) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQPRqHZRP68
And as weird as it may sound, this following video refines the Ontological argument into a proof that, because of the characteristic of ‘maximally great love’, God must exist in more than one person:
The Ontological Argument for the Triune God - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGVYXog8NUg
Verse and Music:
Psalm 115:2-3 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God? But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. Casting Crowns - "Glorious Day (Living He Loved Me)" - Live http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqrqPGt11bA
bornagain77
Kairosfocus, I’m an admirer of your summarizations of atheistic problems - e.g. post 332 is extremely to the point. Unfortunately I do not understand all of them.
Kairosfocus (329) “It is a well known result that if a being is a candidate necessary being and is possible, it will be actual. That is because, such a being, if possible, exists in at least one possible world, but if necessity is indeed essential to its nature, it will be actual in all possible worlds. Just like 2 + 3 = 5 is like that.
Can you elucidate your thesis? Why must a ‘possible candidate necessary being’ necessarily be actual in ‘at least one possible world’? I’m at a loss here. What do you mean with 'possible worlds'? Are you referring to the multiverse? Box
LarTanner: “If the connection is necessary, then God’s choice to create is a necessary consequence of a necessarily existing being. . . . But if the connection is contingent, then what explains or accounts for it? Certainly not something wholly necessary, for the reason given above.” You seem to have bedazzled yourself with language and in the process created a false dilemma. God is necessary. The universe is contingent. The universe exists because God chose to create it Your argument rests on a subtle equivocation on the word “necessary.” Yes, the connection between God and the universe is necessary in the sense that the universe could not exist unless it was created by God. But “necessary connection” and “necessary existence” are wholly separate concepts that you have tried to make equivalent. At bottom you have committed a category error. To say that a being exists necessarily is to make an ontological statement. To say that one being is necessarily connected to another being is to make a statement about the logic of cause and effect. A necessary being can create a contingent being if it is possible for the necessary being to have chosen not to create the contingent being. The contingent being’s existence is accounted for as a consequence of an act of the necessary being’s will. Thus, we see that the contingent being is still contingent even though -- if the contingent being in fact begins to exist -- the connection between the contingent being and the necessary being is necessary. Barry Arrington
p.s re 325 Early Christianity - "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures For some word fun - An Analysis of the Pre-Pauline Creed in 1 Corinthians 15:1-11 - http://carm.org/analysis-pre-pauline-creed-1-corinthians-151-11 Also - what or why do you think scriptures, theologies etc developed after 516 BCE have anything to do with my position? What is not useful and significant of information arriving on planet Earth that is proven to come from beyond space and time and material or philosophical causes? May I say also your hermeneutical is one reason for you position and sadly like most if not all of the "christian" churches unable to hold correct doctrine while thinking they do - big other story and not meant to intrude here. Example: The "Temple" 1st - 2nd ARE NOT PHYSICAL ultimately, but are type and shadow of that made without hands - eternal as Abraham stated no matter how you contrive the words. alan
F/N: Re, at 305, as a FYI:
the Hebrew Scriptures of Judaism are entirely different from the Christian Old Testament
Discounting the apocryphals (viewed as deuterocanonical by Roman Catholics post Trent . . . ), the Heb Tanakh and the OT are the same, but organised differently. The Talmud is different but it is post the split between church and synagogue across C1. (Let us not forget that, as Josephus notes, the head of the Jerusalem church by the 60's, James, was generally known as James the Just.) The understanding my vary in parts, esp on Isa 53, but that is a 2,000 year old debate that started among Jews on the two sides of the question of Jesus of Nazareth as the prophesied messiah. Just a FYI to bring a bit of balance, this is not a scripture debating forum. (Which is why I am willing to go along with "god" in this thread to denote some version or other of the god of the philosophers.) KF kairosfocus
LT 325 - "This statement tells me you’re in way over your head and don’t know it." OK - like I said its still the information and I do have a fair amount of exposure to many tools and schools of biblical information along with 40 years of just about daily "looking into these things" - most if not all versions, Interlinear, Hebrew text, lexicons concordance, dictionaries commentary - Christian and Jewish and hermeneutical approaches etc., but I'll take you seriously and ask you, being knowledgable of thing I'm not aware of, but important enough for you to conclude what your have and count on, then for example tell me, and not many can, what Daniel 9:25 (using any text you like) means. Is it exact, correct and what does it target exactly in the future and then the nature and weight of that information. thanks alan
But, KF, defining God as a necessary being doesn't solve all your problems! If God is a necessary being, then what is God's relationship to the universe, which exists contingently? In other words, are God and the universe connected necessarily or contingently? It must be one or the other. There is no middle ground. If the connection is necessary, then God's choice to create is a necessary consequence of a necessarily existing being. That makes the existence of the universe necessary and not contingent. In turn, this contradicts the assumption that the universe exists contingently because, as you know, anything that follows necessarily from that which is necessary must also be necessary. So the connection between a necessary being and his universe cannot be necessary. It must be contingent. But if the connection is contingent, then what explains or accounts for it? Certainly not something wholly necessary, for the reason given above. So either the connection between God and the universe has no explanation or else the connection is explained in terms of some other contingent fact. In the first case, you are stuck with a brute contingency. In the second case your universe must be either brute or contingent, and the same problem recycles. Either way, we inevitably end up with some fact that is brutely contingent. It follows, then, that pure, unresolved, and brute contingency is inescapable if there is any contingency at all. It is not only impossible to account for the contingent in terms of the necessary, but impossible to account for the contingent at all. Our explanation of the universe must, in the end, bottom out in pure brute contingent fact. I must say that this is not my own working out of the matter, but I do not recall the source and am trying to replay the argument from old notes. Nevertheless, the word "improbable" still seems the most prudent descriptor. LarTanner
LT: Another conceptual problem:
My atheism views natural forces, objects, and “laws” (so to speak) as sufficient to understand reality and explain it.
Here's your first problem: the cosmos we inhabit is credibly contingent, it is not a necessary being. For instance, it has a beginning [think, big bang rooted in Hubble expansion and things like the evident age of white dwarfs etc . . . they are simply cooling off . . . ], which immediately implies there are enabling causal factors that must be "on" for the cosmos we inhabit to be possible. Similarly, by E = m*c^2, we see that matter and energy are contingent also, i.e. they can be turned one into the other. That is what leads to the situation where something beyond our cosmos must exist as a necessary being without such external enabling factors. (This is part of the reason why there was such an attachment to the steady state theory in cosmology, as it would have left us with an eternal cosmos, but that got put on ice with the discovery of the microwave background in the 60's.) Subsequently, there have been attempts of various sorts to suggest oscillating universes, branes and whatnot, but the bottomline is, in light of what we have observational evidence for, contingency. Switch over to metaphysical speculations -- that is what too much cosmology is these days -- and all options perforce must be on teh table on an equal footing. You also run into further troubles, as you now need to account for the credibility of the knowing mind on your materialistic, physicalist view. The forces of survival in an East African savannah are simply not relevant to the problem of grounding warrant, reasoning and so forth, as has been repeatedly pointed out in this thread above, on many reasons. Indeed, such materialism is seriously arguably self referentially incoherent. Materialism cannot credibly ground our mindedness, knowing and reasoning. (Computers are NOT reasoning, they are simply executing patterns of processes built into them and coded in from without. They will just as happily switch their transistors to do rubbish as to do sound processes, indeed that is a big part of the headache of debugging.) And, the materialistic picture runs into further difficulties grounding morality. Start with the case of it being wrong to kidnap, torture and murder a young child. Show us, beyond might and manipulation make 'right' how a materialist view can ground this sort of reality of our being under moral government. An evolutionary materialist view may be culturally comfortable, given the dominance of today's scientism in our educated and chattering classes, but that is not at all the same as that it is well founded. KF kairosfocus
Andre @278: The dominos. I presume the 'cause' is the initial push, and the 'effect' is the fall of the dominos. Which is greater ? I havent a clue. What does 'greater' mean ? If there are many dominos, then the chain-effect appears to be 'greater' than the cause, but I still dont know what 'greater' means. Could you explain your take on all this ? Graham2
Andre, "that's not science" "a machine does not have a conscience." I didn't realize I was speaking with the arbiter of science. Classic. Nevertheless, I'll refer you to von Neumann's famous quote, which bears out true more and more over time:
You insist that there is something a machine cannot do. If you tell me precisely what it is a machine cannot do, then I can always make a machine which will do just that!
I actually have been to that best schools site. Horrible, horrible stuff. A physical pain to read. LarTanner
LT: Sorry, but that is what is wrong:
[LT:] This is incorrect: [KF:} your atheism…implies that god…is IMPOSSIBLE {LT:] Improbable, not impossible.
Not so. It is an essential part of the nature of god, as a concept and candidate being, that god would be the necessary being who is the root of reality. It is a well known result that if a being is a candidate necessary being and is possible, it will be actual. That is because, such a being, if possible, exists in at least one possible world, but if necessity is indeed essential to its nature, it will be actual in all possible worlds. Just like 2 + 3 = 5 is like that. Thee is no possible world in which the truth so expressed will not hold. If instead 2 + 3 = 4 were the candidate, it is dismissed not on being improbable but impossible, there is no possible world in which this will hold. Atheism is not left to argue that god is merely improbable [then dismissed], as is commonly done -- rhetorically (you cite a particularly notoriously ill-thought through source . . . ) -- but to find the concept impossible. Indeed, that is what used to be commonly argued by putting up the deductive problem of evil. But, post Plantinga's free will defense, that has collapsed. (And even before that there were serious questions on the right to argue in terms of good and evil, absent a warrant on worldview premises that grounds such objectively. Borrowing a concept from the culture that rests on other worldview foundations is not good enough at this level.) You can try to argue instead that god would not be a necessary being, but that would not be what is meant by god. These are examples of the sort of unacknowledged metaphysical price that commitment to atheism extracts. KF kairosfocus
LarTanner, you're joking right, that's not science, a machine does not have a conscience , thus it can not wilfully mislead anyone or anything, no wonder you're struggling with the issue, you somehow view as as mechanistic of sort. Here is a good read on seeing past Darwin.... It's worth it mate!!! http://www.thebestschools.org/bestschoolsblog/2012/04/27/seeing-past-darwin-i-machine-metaphor/ Andre
Dear KRock, I have no intentions whatsoever to build a new religion. This is a hopeless project as a deistic god never can form the basis of religion. Divine providence is a necessary condition for the existence of monotheism and a deistic god can not provide that. You don´t pray, you don´t look for divine signals around you, you don´t go to the church/mosque/synagouge, you don´t pay the congregation fees etc if you don´t think that your god listens to you. If the god doesn´t care about you, you don´t care about the god. Elvis4708
@Elvis4708 "Now to your question; Why am I doing this? My answer is this; I do not want to take spirituality from people, but I want to dismantle religions from all sorts of political power and to support reason. I think the deistic way is the right way to go in these endeavors. If the ordinary man was convinced that there perhaps is a god, but that this god doesn´t care about him, then religions would collapse. That´s good enough for me!" So let me get this straight, you don't want to take spirituality away from people, so long as these people don't adhere to a religion in which their God cares about each person individually, right? You also welcome the collapse of organized religions but at the same time, you want to build one based on a deistic God. That's one incredibly "reasonable" answer you’ve come up with. KRock
alan@323,
the information is still there regardless of what you call it
This statement tells me you're in way over your head and don't know it. Have you ever done any serious textual study--not of biblical texts, but of any texts--in different languages? If so, I don't know you you could possibly say such a thing. That Hebrew versus OT distinction is hardly my own invention, and the the interpretive lenses I'm bringing in include those of Second-Temple era Judaism (Judaisms, really) and early Christianity (Christianities, really). There's more things in the heaven and earth of that history than you've dreamt of. LarTanner
Sorry - #323 refs. #305 alan
OK - but my problem is that the information is still there regardless of what you call it which to me anyway is coming off as a very thin and transparent fig leaf. Your naive labeling of this information as trope and your mis-use of Hebrew vs OT does nothing whatsoever in dealing with the information. I'm sure I don't have to point out your atheism provides you a questionable interpretive lens because it seems to give you what you want, but it does appear to bring into question your claim of "serious, sincere reflection." alan
Elvis,
Adding Darwin´s evolution theory...and research results within scientific fields such as genetics and quantum mechanics should lead any logical observer to the conclusion that a stochastic, dynamic evolution model explains earthly life
Try transferring recorded information (the genotype) into a material effect (the phenotype) without using immaterial relationships instantiated in matter. When you fail at that (as you will most certainly do) and concede that it cannot be done (which you will most likely not do) then you can set out to demonstrate how enegry-independent relationships come into existence from inexorable law -- prior to the onset of information-based organization, and prior to the onset of Darwinian evolution. When you work all that out, then perhaps you can promote your "logic" as justifiable ... or as you construe it, “intellectually honorable belief”. Upright BiPed
KRock, Kairosfocus. I was led today to offer you both a copy of the book, signed of course, free of charge. If you would like a copy email me a postal address I will send one over to you. peter.jamieson@inbox.com Blessings PeterJ
Dear Mr Murray, Thanks for reading my rebuttal. I´m glad you enjoyed it. Now, the "perfect god" is not a subjective and vague god. It is an infallible one that can do everything. Not just best in relation to any other god, but best in an absolute sense. The perfect god has its origin in Greek philosophy(Xenophanes) and is of course an unattainable ideal. Still the common theist thinks that it exists. Lamentable... A discussion of the perfect god and its importance for the monotheistic construct is a big thing. I will return to the matter on my site. Of course you are right. I meant "evidence", not "arguments". Things get wrong without proofreading. Another error I am guilty of is writing "honorable" instead of "honest". I´m glad you didn´t pinpoint that. Now to your question; Why am I doing this? My answer is this; I do not want to take spirituality from people, but I want to dismantle religions from all sorts of political power and to support reason. I think the deistic way is the right way to go in these endeavors. If the ordinary man was convinced that there perhaps is a god, but that this god doesn´t care about him, then religions would collapse. That´s good enough for me! Elvis4708
Andre@315, Not so: http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2009-08/evolving-robots-learn-lie-hide-resources-each-other LarTanner
KF@314, This is incorrect:
your atheism...implies that god...is IMPOSSIBLE
Improbable, not impossible. See, for example, Dawkins's chapter 4, "Why There Almost Certainly Is No God." My atheism views natural forces, objects, and "laws" (so to speak) as sufficient to understand reality and explain it. It also views human behavior and psychology as the source of, and solution to, various worldly ills. God is unnecessary. LarTanner
LarTanner: ”But let me ask: Can the origin and continued existence of planet earth be explained without invoking not just an ID but the God of the OP? .”
No sir, I hold that to be a logical impossibility. The origin and continued existence of matter cannot be explained by matter itself. There simply has to be a transcendent cause.
LarTanner: ”If yes, then what good is the god concept? .”
I agree, if there are solid physicalistic explanations for the origin and continued existence of the universe, life, consciousness, morality and such, the god concept isn’t any good. Box
@Mung Thanks for the link... KRock
LarTanner, machines cannot lie Andre
LT: First you know that a great many things are not subject to reduction to algorithmic description, which is what it takes to create a machine to do it. Just off the top of my head, construct a machine to show the truth of any arbitrary set of mathematical claims relative to any arbitrary set of axioms, by proof on some arbitrary set of logical calculus principles. Second, you are ducking the actual challenge you have: your atheism, in light of modern forms of the arguments to god, implies that god -- a serious candidate necessary being -- is IMPOSSIBLE (= there is no possible world in which a being recognisable as god exists, similar to there is no possible world in which 3 + 2 = 4, on the usual meanings . . . ), and that is how he would not be necessary. Have you actually credibly shown this, or has any other atheist? If so, kindly show us. If not, kindly explain your claims on holding a satisfactory position. (And that is before we get to issues of the fine tuning required of the physics and constituents of the cosmos to get to a planet like earth, which is another issue you are gliding by quietly while setting up strawman arguments to brush aside, or trying to twist the issue about as though you hold a default. Every tub must stand on its own bottom here..) KF kairosfocus
WJM, It is important to me. It's something I value because hearing such a case articulated plainly and directly helped me immensely. It's also something I value for my children. LarTanner
Box, I appreciate the question, and perhaps my thinking is more muddled than I realized on this point. But let me ask: Can the origin and continued existence of planet earth be explained without invoking not just an ID but the God of the OP? If yes, then what good is the god concept? Substitute any number of specific objects for "planet earth" and you start to see what I'm getting at, which is really a transformation of the statement attributed to von Neumann:
You insist that there is something a machine cannot do. If you tell me precisely what it is a machine cannot do, then I can always make a machine which will do just that.
It seems to me (pardon my need to qualify opinions, as I don't wish to be accused of stating things as facts) that every time we insist that something could not have arisen without God's divine hand or foot, then when we zone in on precisely what it is that could not have arisen -- we find a way that it either could have or did. LarTanner
LarTanner:
My best recommendation for research is to pursue two areas: one, scholarship on Second-Temple-Era Judaism, and two, very early Christianity.
A New Testament Biblical Theology: The Unfolding of the Old Testament in the New Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament Handbook on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament: Exegesis and Interpretation The Right Doctrine from the Wrong Texts?: Essays on the Use of the Old Testament in the New
My best recommendation for research is to pursue two areas: one, scholarship on Second-Temple-Era Judaism, and two, very early Christianity.
To what end? Mung
Thank you for your interest. I’m fairly sure that you can download a Kindle App for your computer, and therefore you could receive it that way.
Free Reading Apps Mung
LT:
It’s important because many people don’t know, and perhaps they will be helped personally or philosophically by knowing.
Please don't think I'm being facetious: Why is it important for you to help others? William J Murray
@LarTanner
LarTanner: ”One of my main objections to theistic views in general has not–I think, I might have missed it–been addressed: theism is unnecessary as an explanation of anything in reality. To my knowledge and mind, no one has made a positive case that God (the god of the OP) must be invoked in order to explain the origin and operation of X.”
Can you elucidate your objection? Given the cosmological, ontological, fine tuning and moral arguments it seems inappropriate for anyone to state ‘to my knowledge and mind, no one has made a positive case that God (the god of the OP) must be invoked in order to explain the origin and operation of X’. ---- @bornagain77 -299 You are welcome! Did you know about John Lorber? Box
LT: You can see a 101 level survey of what I think it takes to build a worldview here on, as you are familiar with (I added a little bit recently). (As an aside, the "prophecies" point pivots on the matters discussed here on in context.) Some very serious issues lurk underneath the surface of this thread, on the challenge of warrant. And, the issue of soundness vs validity is a useful start point for addressing warrant for claims, much less going on to address warrant for worldviews on comparative difficulties. I would be interested to see your addressing of the implied issues in my remark to Elvis4708 at 295 above, e.g.:
ask yourself what commitments you are making at metaphysical level to reject the theistic views as developed in modern forms. And, ask yourself whether these are demanding a cumulative metaphysical price you are truly willing to pay, why. Such as, are you able to ground morality, good and evil objectively in a foundational IS of your view? (If not you cannot open your mouth to pose the problem of evil, much less try to respond to Plantinga’s defense.) Similarly, are you truly willing to argue that god is inescapably, inevitably IMPOSSIBLE (as god will be a necessary being candidate and can only be blocked by impossibility)? again, are you sure that your perceived incoherence of the concept of god is not based on strawman caricatures? What is your own worldview, how do its core presuppositions cohere, address the facts of experienced reality, and explain elegantly but not simplistically? Do you have an adequate account of: the origins of a cosmos fine tuned for life, math showing the astonishing unity in 0 = 1 + e^i*pi (and all that that points to) which is at the same time deeply embedded in physical reality, the origin of digital code using algorithm based cellular life, mind and morals?
Some pretty serious claims and assertions have been made in recent days, especially by leading atheist spokesmen such as Dawkins. All that stuff about ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked, or else about child abuse or else about following barbaric, genocidal etc bronze age sky warrior gods etc comes to mind. If the atmosphere seems a bit strained or polarised, it is not all coming from one side. So, let us put such to one side and speak to matters on the merits. I think it is quite fair to ask for warrant -- what rational justification is getting at. Remember, for just one instance, that it is seriously arguable that -- per necessary being logic -- you (as an atheist) are implicitly committed not just to the view that there is no god, but that such a god is IMPOSSIBLE. That is a pretty strong claim, and it implies several pretty strong ones, including a scale of delusion that would bring the stability, capacity and trustworthiness of the human mind under serious question. How do you warrant such? I think it is every tub must stand on its own bottom time. KF kairosfocus
The Most Amazing Prophecy - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejHX3uyySQQ bornagain77
WJM@301, It's important because many people don't know, and perhaps they will be helped personally or philosophically by knowing. KF@302, agreed. But soundness and truth are still in play. Hence, we discuss. alan@303. The 300 prophecies trope is interesting, and I was once more familiar with it than I am now. I seem to recall a tongue-in-cheek statement to the effect statement that each of us may be fulfilling 300 prophecies just by sitting here today and reading the Hebrew Scriptures in the suitable frame. My answer is that the Hebrew Scriptures of Judaism are entirely different from the Christian Old Testament. The Old Testament is, in fact, a certain way of reading the Hebrew Scriptures as well as the results (such as Christology) of that way of reading. To be sure, The Hebrew Scriptures are a certain way of reading the many pre-existing texts of ancient Israel's library, but this again goes to my overall thesis that the two are different; what's more, they are fundamentally irreconcilable. You cannot read the Hebrew Scriptures and get to the Christian Jesus. Only the OT can do that. Neither can you read the OT and get to Judaism. The rest of this argument requires more detail and textual/historical analysis (to say nothing of debate!) than I am able to muster. My best recommendation for research is to pursue two areas: one, scholarship on Second-Temple-Era Judaism, and two, very early Christianity. LarTanner
Alan, I have zero informed understanding of scripture, so I simply cannot offer any meaningful opinion thereof. William J Murray
289 LarTanner wrote: "that I am an atheist not because I really think it’s true but because I have ulterior motives. You can imagine how insulting it is to have someone who doesn’t know you say that you’re an atheist because you’re captive to hedonism, or a warped political view, or a dislike of authority, or egotism, or whatever. In all cases, the one thing never granted is that the atheist arrived at the conclusion through serious, sincere reflection." Please, and I am not "insulting" you here, just a question and if you have answers I would greatly appreciate receiving your research and determinations. You say your "serious, sincere reflections" have allowed for you an honest, lacking "ulterior motives", conclusion re. atheism - so - in your study of the 300+ prophecies concerning the details of the first advent, how did you determine they are all dismissible? thank you and would really like to examine your research and conclusion - really and sincerely. p.s. TO WJM - you said you don't know this subject very well - interesting - my first post opened with - "And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and YOU WILL DO WELL TO PAY ATTENTION to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts." p.p.s. WJM - Why do you think scripture says it important? What "weight" to this discussion do you think it has? Could it be of a type that mathematically confers your thesis? Its not a side subject. It has more power than all the evidences you have presented here - all natural. I point this out because these natural argument don't move one out of that box, they just keep repeating themselves interesting as they are. alan
F/N: Pardon, but valid != sound. Sound is where truth enters, and it is where we need to address well warranted, i.e. the exact question of reasoned justification. KF kairosfocus
LT said:
So, I think it’s important for people to know atheism is a valid and healthy view of the world.
Why is it important? William J Murray
@bornagain77 - 284 I'll see your gigabyte and raise you a terabyte: Do we need a brain at all? "There's a young student at this university," says [professor] Lorber, "who has an IQ of 126, has gained a first-class honors degree in mathematics, and is socially completely normal. And yet the boy has virtually no brain." ‘Is Your Brain Really Necessary?’,by Roger Lewin, Science, New Series, Vol.210, No.4475 (Dec. 12, 1980), 1232-1234. (PDF) Other links on this subject: G.M. Woerlee and Flatrock.org.nz. Box
Thanks Box! bornagain77
WJM, My response at the end of #264 was intended as an answer to your question. I like the details of the discussion. Your question at #288 is a bit different. For me, one point to engaging in the discussion is to promote the legitimacy of an atheist view. It's reasonable to be an atheist, and it's a moral and socially legitimate identity category. Recall what you write in the OP:
atheism is an untenable position for any intellectually honest, rational, and informed person. The belief that god (as described above, which is supported by the listed evidence) does not exist, or that it isn’t more likely that god exists than not, can only be a position based on ignorance of the available evidence and argument for god, or a hyper-skeptical, intellectually dishonest, ideologically biased, a priori dismissal of all of the evidence for the existence of god. [Boldface added]
I still read this as ascribing atheism to motives other than fair assessment, even on a charitable interpretation. So, I think it's important for people to know atheism is a valid and healthy view of the world. That's a big point for me. KF@291: I understand you think I'm seriously off-base, but I have no desire, means, or requisite expertise to comment at all on your recollection of your experiences. I want to acknowledge what you say and not come across as dismissing it in any way, yet I am exchanging with you the fact that I too have had transforming experiences that I cherish. It's a remarkable thing to be a human being and to live on this planet in the time that we do. LarTanner
@bornagain77 - 284 I'll see your gigabyte and raise you a terabyte: Do we need a brain at all? "There's a young student at this university," says [professor] Lorber, "who has an IQ of 126, has gained a first-class honors degree in mathematics, and is socially completely normal. And yet the boy has virtually no brain." ‘Is Your Brain Really Necessary?’,by Roger Lewin, Science, New Series, Vol.210, No.4475 (Dec. 12, 1980), 1232-1234. <a href=”http://www.psych.ufl.edu/~steh/PSB4504/brainnecessary.pdf”(PDF) Other links on this subject: <a href=”http://www.neardeath.woerlee.org/almost-brainless.php”G.M. Woerlee and <a href=”http://flatrock.org.nz/topics/science/is_the_brain_really_necessary.htm”Flatrock.org.nz Box
KN 290, don't get upset at me, get upset at the evidence! It's the evidence that falsified your ''I' am my body' claim. I merely pointed the evidence out and refused to buy your sophistry!,,, If you were truly open, and brave enough, to following the evidence wherever it led, then you would thank me for pointing out the evidence correcting you instead of being upset at me. And, IMHO, you would have 'traded up' to something more glorious and wonderfully real than any mere human words, even with your talent for wordsmithing, can pay credit to: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." William Shakespeare - Hamlet Evanescence - The Other Side (Lyric Video) http://www.vevo.com/watch/evanescence/the-other-side-lyric-video/USWV41200024?source=instantsearch bornagain77
Elvis4708 I suggest you re-work your thinking in an inference to best explanation context. In so doing, ask yourself what commitments you are making at metaphysical level to reject the theistic views as developed in modern forms. And, ask yourself whether these are demanding a cumulative metaphysical price you are truly willing to py, why. Such as, are you able to ground morality, good and evil objectively in a foundational IS of your view? (If not you cannot open your mouth to pose the problem of evil, much less try to respond to Plantinga's defense.) Similarly, are you truly willing to argue that god is inescapably, inevitably IMPOSSIBLE (as god will be a necessary being candidate and can only be blocked by impossibility)? again, are you sure that your perceived incoherence of the concept of god is not based on strawman caricatures? What is your own worldview, how do its core presuppositions cohere, address the facts of experienced reality, and explain elegantly but not simplistically? Do you have an adequate account of: the origins of a cosmos fine tuned for life, math showing the astonishing unity in 0 = 1 + e^i*pi (and all that that points to) which is at the same time deeply embedded in physical reality, the origin of digital code using algorithm based cellular life, mind and morals? And so forth. KF kairosfocus
LT: Sorry, I mis-attributed the "I'm done here" to you; that was KN. William J Murray
LT @ 289: Well, I hope you're not "done here" (290) because I enjoy the exchange. I agree that in the end my view may not match up to reality. You said:
But what actually galls me about these debates is the strong implication you given in the OP: that I am an atheist not because I really think it’s true but because I have ulterior motives. You can imagine how insulting it is to have someone who doesn’t know you say that you’re an atheist because you’re captive to hedonism, or a warped political view, or a dislike of authority, or egotism, or whatever. In all cases, the one thing never granted is that the atheist arrived at the conclusion through serious, sincere reflection.
You once again fall prey to an incorrect inference. Instead of assuming the worst about me, how about extending the courtesy of best interpretation? Just because I hold that atheists hold their views (ultimately) irrationally or out of a lack of information doesn't mean I think they have "ulterior motives" (at least that they are aware of), are not sincere, or have not employed "sincere self-reflection". I was an atheist for many years. I was entirely sincere, and I was very self-reflective. That doesn't mean my worldview was - in the end - rationally justifiable. If you feel like it, I really would like an answer to the question I posed and reiterated at the end of #288. I ask not because I think you have some "ulterior motive" for arguing against theism and for atheism; my unspoken assumption is that you (and others) argue for atheism and against theism because you think atheism is true and theism false. However, I'm not going to just assume that to be the case, which is why I ask, given the complex philosophical positions people often hold here. William J Murray
Andre 285, thanks great link: Strange but True: When Half a Brain Is Better than a Whole One - May 2007 Excerpt: Most Hopkins hemispherectomy patients are five to 10 years old. Neurosurgeons have performed the operation on children as young as three months old. Astonishingly, memory and personality develop normally. ,,, Another study found that children that underwent hemispherectomies often improved academically once their seizures stopped. "One was champion bowler of her class, one was chess champion of his state, and others are in college doing very nicely," Freeman says. Of course, the operation has its downside: "You can walk, run—some dance or skip—but you lose use of the hand opposite of the hemisphere that was removed. You have little function in that arm and vision on that side is lost," Freeman says. Remarkably, few other impacts are seen. ,,, http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=strange-but-true-when-half-brain-better-than-whole bornagain77
LT: I think you are seriously off base. In my own life, we can start with two direct experiences. at five, a Samuel type auditory encounter with God that twice over, I thought was my cousin acting as big sister cum aunt cum mother substitute calling me from the back to the front of the house. At this time I did not know the Samuel story. after the second run to the verandah, to be told, no I did not call you, my cousin told me the Samuel story and suggested I answer as Samuel was advised to. At that time, the THIRD time I heard my name called I did so. A Presence filled the room, and a message that my life was under a call was clearly, vividly impressed on my mind. This shaped me all my childhood. (Even, in the period when I was under conviction, knew exactly what was happening, knew I was fighting God, and did not want to surrender. I am not sure if I felt fear or was just being stubborn or believed that God would have to break me at his time of choosing.) The already described incident of miraculous guidance occurred when I was about nine, and saved my life. If you want more famous people, try C S Lewis' conversion, where his resistance to the Unwelcome was gradually broken. (And I did not know of this till I began to read Lewis at age 178 - 19.) Try also, Blaise Pascal's night of fire, Nov 23, 1654 -- which he kept secret, sewn into his jacket till his death:
"The Memorial": The year of grace 1654 Monday, 23 November, feast of Saint Clement, Pope and Martyr, and of others in the Martyrology. Eve of Saint Chrysogonus, Martyr and others. From about half past ten in the evening until half past midnight. Fire 'God of Abraham, God of Isaac, God of Jacob,' not of philosophers and scholars. Certainty, certainty, heartfelt, joy, peace. God of Jesus Christ. God of Jesus Christ. My God and your God. 'Thy God shall be my God.' The world forgotten, and everything except God. He can only be found by the ways taught in the Gospels. Greatness of the human soul. 'O righteous Father, the world had not known thee, but I have known thee.' Joy, joy, joy, tears of joy. I have cut myself off from him. They have forsaken me, the fountain of living waters. 'My God wilt thou forsake me?' Let me not be cut off from him for ever! And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.' Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. I have cut myself off from him, shunned him, denied him, crucified him. Let me never be cut off from him! He can only be kept by the ways taught in the Gospel. Sweet and total renunciation. Total submission to Jesus Christ and my director. Everlasting joy in return for one day's effort on earth. I will not forget thy word. Amen.
There is much more out there, many lives turned around. KF kairosfocus
In re: bornagain77 @ 284, that's it -- I'm done here. Kantian Naturalist
WJM@277, A few important points will sew up the discussion for me. First, my "desperation" comment was over-zealous; I mis-read your intent in asking it at the time you did. Next, I get (I think we all do or should) that atheism or theistic views may in fact be finally untenable. It's possible that in the last analysis, atheism fails to match reality. It's no less possible that theism fails to match reality. It's also possible that reality somehow is a strange hybrid that make both views partly correct. I personally accept that my conclusions may ultimately be incorrect, but right now I think they are correct and that there are good reasons for thinking so. But what actually galls me about these debates is the strong implication you given in the OP: that I am an atheist not because I really think it's true but because I have ulterior motives. You can imagine how insulting it is to have someone who doesn't know you say that you're an atheist because you're captive to hedonism, or a warped political view, or a dislike of authority, or egotism, or whatever. In all cases, the one thing never granted is that the atheist arrived at the conclusion through serious, sincere reflection. The companion to this view of atheists is that the atheist is ideology first and conclusion second. I know this point will being in the usual quotes from Lewontin and Philip Johnson, but I am talking about atheism and not any -ism in the performance of science. People, not atheists and not theists, do not escape ideology; we're all embroiled in on or more, and all the time. It helps to realize that one is enmeshed in ideology, but that hardly helps one transcend it. This is why I've always thought the usual Johnson criticism of the materialism coming first was banal: it merely recapitulates what Lewontin argues except implying a nefarious object to the science. One of my main objections to theistic views in general has not--I think, I might have missed it--been addressed: theism is unnecessary as an explanation of anything in reality. To my knowledge and mind, no one has made a positive case that God (the god of the OP) must be invoked in order to explain the origin and operation of X. Of course I am aware that ID targets the cell and DNA as sites where an ID might be required, yet even so, what would make the specific God of the OP the one and only source? In any even, I'm not yet convinced that ID arguments in the area of the cell hold up. Time will certainly tell on this, I imagine. Finally, to KF in #281: the two testimonies I was referring to--partly tongue-in-cheek--were Moses and PeterJ. I am of course aware that other folks in Torah and other writings are reported to speak and interact with God. The key factor to bear in mind, however, is that we are talking about first-hand testimonial of dealing with God "face-to-face." I specifically excluded a voice from a cloud or wrestling with angels or interacting with Jesus (a la Damascus) because first-hand knowledge was the initial parameter WJM offered in his China analogy. But Moses is said in Torah to have been the only one to see God's face (Deut. 34:10, "And there was no other prophet who arose in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face.") PeterJ also claims to have met God in person. I acknowledge what you say, KF: "the point is that here are so many cases of people's lives transformed in diverse ways due to encounters with God in one form or another, that the dismissal of all these, becomes a questioning of the credibility of the human mind as a means to know and understand or analyse the real world." Pleas note first that there has been no dismissal of these encounters, only a recognition that very few of these encounters have been encounters with God himself. Another recognition is that some cases have not been encounters with an agent of God. You may be surprised to learn that atheists too experience life transformations and such. LarTanner
Elvis4708 @ 287: I enjoyed reading your rebuttal. You are correct that I offered nothing new other than to aggregate the supportive evidence and argument (that was not self-contradictory or easily dispensed) into a civil case format ("more likely") instead of a criminal one ("beyond reasonable doubt"). I'm not going to rehash points and counter-points already made throughout this thread except for a couple of things. First, I will point out that your use of the term "perfect god" is as subjective and vague as your claims about how I have defined that god. Does absolute omnipotence (the ability to make a 4-sided triangle) make god "more perfect" than one inherently confined to logic, and if so, by what standard of "perfection"? How would one make an assessment of "more perfect" or "less perfect" without adhering to logical principles, then how would that assessment be valid when assessing a being where perfection is measured by it's capacity to void or contravene logic? Your argument against my definitional structure of god appears to me to be both self-serving (a convenient definition of "perfect") and inherently self-contradictory (a logic-based judgement of something assumed to be beyond the reach of logic). Also, please note your unsupportable use of a universal negative claim:
There are no scientific or else objective arguments in favor of divine providence, miracles and other sorts of divine intervention, particularly not benevolent intervention, in human affairs.
... is something I referred to in regards to intellectual dishonesty. Or, perhaps you can support this assertion without shifting the burden? (I'm assuming you meant to say "scientific or else objective evidence", because I'm not sure what a scientific or objective argument would be.) I would like to ask you the same question I asked LT, and have yet to receive a response. I would like to ask it of any atheist reading: Under your worldview/philosophy, what is the point of arguing against theism and for atheism? What ultimate purpose does it serve? William J Murray
William J Murray - in his article “Is Atheism Rationally Justifiable?”(at uncommondescent.com) - is of the opinion that there is evidence of god´s existence to an extent that it is more probable that the god exists than that the god does not exist. An atheist is therefore either ignorant of this evidence or boasting of an intellectually dishonest belief. In any case, atheists are put to blame. Only a theistic belief can be “intellectually honorable”. The validity of Murray´s conclusions depends on what sort of god he is talking about and the strength of his evidence as related to that god. Murray does not produce any new findings or ideas here. His listed evidence, seven items, is a mixture of well known personal, philosophical, theological and scientific arguments. It has been demonstrated many times before that these arguments are not sufficient to prove the existence of “the perfect god”(omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, infinitely merciful, infinitely righteous, free will). In fact, it can be shown that the perfect god cannot possibly exist, not even as a theoretical construct. Such a construct will always contain logical inconsistencies. Murray does not explicitly define “his” god as perfect but he is close to it. He talks about a god as “source of free will, mind, consciousness; omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent inasmuch as principles of logic allow”. Keywords here are “inasmuch as principles of logic allow”, an amendment and evasion which shows that Murray is aware of the logical problems involved with the perfect god concept. But he does not tell us what he means with his amendment so his definition of god has in fact no operational meaning. We simply don´t know what sort of god Murray is talking about. It is obviously a weaker god than the perfect god but weaker in what way and how much? The situation becomes even more confused when we ask ourselves how Murray´s god is related to the god of Abraham, the monotheistic god. My conclusion is that Murray´s conclusions about atheistic ignorance and dishonesty is totally without meaning. However, I am very fond of the “intellectually honorable belief”-concept, a concept I have used myself at several occasions. But my views are quite different than those of Murray and other monotheistic propagandists. Allow an outline; First of all we have to distinguish between the two fundamental aspects of divine presence; creation on the one hand, revelation and providence on the other. These capacities of the alleged divine are two quite different things and should therefore be treated separately in any logical analysis of divine presence. To be sure, “proving” divine creation is quite another thing than “proving” divine providence. Murray makes the assertion that “a worldview or mindset is rationally justified when it answers adequately to the facts of the real world as we experience or observe it”. Murray of course believes in divine providence. Therefore, in my opinion, he becomes a victim of his own assertion. There are no scientific or else objective arguments in favor of divine providence, miracles and other sorts of divine intervention, particularly not benevolent intervention, in human affairs. Educated monotheists are aware of this. They have pondered over the théodicée-dilemma for thousands of years and their sharpest brains have still not been able to present a solution to it(this is not very strange as there is no solution!). But that is not all. Adding Darwin´s evolution theory(with no “Vatican exceptions”) and research results within scientific fields such as genetics and quantum mechanics should lead any logical observer to the conclusion that a stochastic, dynamic evolution model explains earthly life much better than any (deterministic, static) religious model of divine providence. Anecdotes, personal experiences and testimonies of divine presence now and then do not alter that conclusion. Such “evidence” is often triggered by religious belief and religious hysteria and should therefore not be referred to as “proofs” of divine existence. Hallucinations, wishful thoughts, planted rumors and gossips do not belong to a principal discussion of religion. In any case, divine providence is out of my worldview and should be out of anybody´s worldview unless in some sense objectively “confirmed”. Now creation; The so called “new atheist debate” is very much focused on divine vs natural creation and the mega question how matter and life can come into existence without a helping hand(word?) from supernatural beings. This is not the place to indulge into this debate. Suffice it to say that science not as yet has delivered a complete answer to that question. Therefore, an “intellectually honorable” standing is that it is possible that an external supernatural power has created our universe. But the mental distance from the acknowledgement of a possible creator to a belief in the monotheistic god is long, infinitely long. Just think about the small, geocentric universe - a sun and its seven planets - that is presented in the holy scriptures and the infinite universe with all its galaxies and solar systems we know to exist today. Why would a creator of this infinite universe only care about our solar system and the wellbeing of humans? Isn´t it a bit presumptuous to believe that? Anyway, acknowledging a supernatural creation of the universe does not make us understand the actor behind it. We do not even know if a supernatural creation, if ever carried out, was a conscious, purposeful act. Nor if it was intended to be an act of benevolence! Perhaps universe is the result of a devil´s act as proposed by the Gnostics? Now it should be evident to the reader that a theistic belief is not what I think of as an “intellectually honorable” belief. To me an honorable belief is basically atheistic, at most deistic(the creator is gone or does not care about humanity). This is sad in a way. It is indeed hard to accept life as a stochastic process with no divine purpose – to me and to many atheists. Taking “the leap of faith” and forget all about stochastic and evolutionary processes is of course no option for convinced atheists and deists. That would indeed be dishonest! Thank you! Elvis4708
KF & BA: There are some things I don't bother debating with people, such as when they repeatedly deny what is obvious. I do, however, have a great appreciation for those that tirelessly address such denials. You never know when, or even why, but that at some point someone might seize upon such information for their benefit. William J Murray
BA77 Awesome post as always to compliment that here you go; http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=strange-but-true-when-half-brain-better-than-whole Now the question? Does this mean that we have some sort of redundancy built-in to our brains and some sort of High Availability too? I must admit this makes the case for design even stronger than it already is because these kind of system only arise from planning them...... What can I say wow! Andre
per post 270 ,,,KN states: ““I” am my body” Yet: ,,If ““I” am my body” as KN holds, then if half of a person’s brain were removed, then the ‘I’ in ““I” am my body” should be less of a “I” as they were before, but that is not the case. The whole ‘I’ in ““I” am my body” stays intact even though the brain suffers severe impairment: Miracle Of Mind-Brain Recovery Following Hemispherectomies – Dr. Ben Carson – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994585/ Removing Half of Brain Improves Young Epileptics’ Lives: Excerpt: “We are awed by the apparent retention of memory and by the retention of the child’s personality and sense of humor,” Dr. Eileen P. G. Vining; In further comment from the neuro-surgeons in the John Hopkins study: “Despite removal of one hemisphere, the intellect of all but one of the children seems either unchanged or improved. Intellect was only affected in the one child who had remained in a coma, vigil-like state, attributable to peri-operative complications.” http://www.nytimes.com/1997/08/19/science/removing-half-of-brain-improves-young-epileptics-lives.html Thus KN suffers empirical failure once again for his worldview! Behold KN’s forthcoming sophistry Box. per post 274 KN: "That hardly disproves anything I’ve been talking about. All it shows is that certain very simplistic and crude hypotheses about cognitive localization are false.",,, HMMM,,,, BA77: And that would be your simplistic and crude ““I” am my body” hypothesis that was shown to be false by the empirical evidence. Just because it disagrees with your preferred worldview does not matter one iota! You made a claim, the claim was shown to be bunk, deal with it! BA77: As well, Thanks KN for being right on target with the 'forthcoming sophistry' especially towards Box! Tis a mighty fine word salad you toss indeed . :) What dressing do you use Denialism or the more spicy Delusionalism bornagain77
Mung: let's talk! (I particularly have this in mind.) KF kairosfocus
PJ: I am one of God's draftees, not a volunteer! (Believe it or not, I fought God's known call on my life, through an extended period of being "under conviction," until the night when I was beaten in the battle of wills and surrendered. That's another story for another day, but it should count as another personal encounter with God in my life: my private battle of wills with God. I lost, He won, and so I won. [And, I am not a Calvinist!]) Looking at your announcement and the reactions, it is clear that there is a presumption of scientism at work, and a tendency to resort to snide dismissals. Much as just happened when I had the temerity to post the West video on C S Lewis. I see too that the people involved do not understand the underlying bigotry involved in Dawkins' sneer about "ignorant, stupid, insane (or, wicked . . .)". A pity. Let me clip a particularly significant case:
we treat people who hear voices and claim to talk with gods in one of two ways depending on the amount they shout in the streets. Mr [PJ] is still restricting himself to rambling in the newspaper so we should not try and talk him out of it. Suffice to say that his fellow believers until recently claimed the earth was only a few thousand years old and that dianasors where a test of faith. As usual religion has been playing catch up to science and reason.
Oh, dear: 1 --> Apparently, this interlocutor has not understood the biggest gap of all in evolutionary materialist views on origins of the minded embodied creatures that we represent, i.e where does that "I" that has a unified, personal, conscious, continuing experience come from, where is it grounded, and how can we have reasonable confidence in the veridicality of our perceptions. 2 --> The problem, in a nutshell, is not hearing disembodied voices in the head or seeing spirits, it is hearing and seeing and perceiving consciously and at all being able to have a conversation with the other. 3 --> in short, I here allude to the hard problem of consciousness (where, we must never forget, consciousness is our first fact, the fact through which we perceive all other facts -- rendering this the first problem of all). As Wikipedia once had it aptly summed up:
"The term hard problem of consciousness, coined by David Chalmers[1], refers to the "hard problem" of explaining why we have qualitative phenomenal experiences."
4 --> For, as Ned Block observes in an article for The Encyclopedia of Cognitive Science:
The Hard Problem of consciousness is how to explain a state of consciousness in terms of its neurological basis . . . . There are many perspectives on the Hard Problem but I will mention only the four that comport with a naturalistic framework . . . . Eliminativism . . . . Philosophical Reductionism or Deflationism . . . . Phenomenal Realism, or Inflationism . . . . Dualistic Naturalism.
5 --> As my always linked note continues:
Let us therefore note how, in Block's -- clearly influential -- formulation, the materialistic-naturalistic perspective is imposed, right from the outset, via the presented definition of the problem (and the underlying assumed definition of "Science"): explain[ing] a state of consciousness in terms of its neurological basis. So, any explanation that does not set out to in effect account for consciousness on the basis of neurons and their electrochemistry or the like is excluded from the outset. AKA, begging the question. Block then sets out to look at four “naturalistic” alternatives: [1] the view that “consciousness as understood above simply does not exist,” [2] allowing that “consciousness exists, but they ‘deflate’ this commitment—again on philosophical grounds—taking it to amount to less than meets the eye,” [3] the view that in effect consciousness emerges from but is not reducible to neurological activity [a comparison is made to how heat as a concept may be explained as tracing physically to thermal agitation of molecules, but is conceptually different], [4] views that “standard materialism is false but that there are naturalistic alternatives to Cartesian dualism such as pan-psychism." [This last is explained here.] But, what is never seriously on the table is the key issue that the design inference points to: we know, immemorial, that there are three major causal factors, chance, necessity, intelligence. Necessity is associated with mechanical regularities [e.g. how heavy objects fall and come to rest on a table], so is not associated with highly contingent outcomes. Contingency [e.g. which face of a die, having fallen to and settled on a table is uppermost] traces to chance or agency. When we have functionally specified, complex information, we have a situation that in observation and on grounds of inadequacy of required search resources, reliably traces to intelligence, not chance. It is thus -- vast erudition of many discussions by scholars of the highest calibre notwithstanding -- utterly unsurprising to see that the whole evolutionary materialistic project to "explain" consciousness grinds to a halt in the face of self referential incoherence and failure to adequately reckon with the radical differences between the properties of mind and matter. So, options 1 and 2 fall apart directly, and 3 and 4 boil down to defiantly flying the materialistic flag and passing out promissory notes in the teeth of consistent explanatory failure. But persistent explanatory failure is not just a matter to be fobbed off with a promissory note or two on future deliverances of “Science” and/or alternative materialistic explanations, it is inherent in the materialistic imposed -- historically and philosophically suspect -- redefinition of what science is and tries to do. For, the exclusion of intelligence from explanation when it is inconvenient to the evolutionary materialist view, ends up in question-begging, and is in violation of basic facts on the history of science. It is also philosophically ill-founded, and is self referentially incoherent; as has been shown above. That is -- as the case of Sir Francis Crick vividly illustrates -- such evolutionary materialist "explanations" cannot even coherently explain the intellectual works of the researchers themselves. For, we know that complex, functionally organised information such as apparent messages, reliably trace to mind, and that mind has capabilities that do not credibly trace to chance + necessity acting on matter + energy. In short, we have strong, empirically based reason to see that once mind is viewed through the characteristics of its traces, we are dealing with something that strongly points beyond the world of matter + energy acted on by forces tracing to chance + necessity only.
6 --> THAT is how revolutionary the design perspective is. 7 --> And BTW, there are a few words that should be pondered on overconfident reconstructions of the remote, unobserved past as are so often passed off as though they were facts on the level of the roundness of the easrth (which BTW was known from about 300 BC and which was accepted by Columbus' objectors, their issue was that Columbus' estimate for the circumference was far too low and they were right . . . ). Let me cite the voice out of the storm in Job 38, as a caution to those who would indulge in overconfident scientism at this point:
Job 38:1 . . . the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said: 2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge? 3 Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. 4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. 5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? 6 On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone- 7 while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy? . . .
8 --> In short, a little due humility in the face of the inescapable limitations of origins science, would be appropriate. Let me clip the onward IOSE remarks on that (noting the unit on cosmology and timelines here on too):
When we turn to origins sciences, as already noted in brief, we can see another problem. For, just as Job 38:2 – 4 points out, we were not “there” to see the facts directly. Nor, do we have generally accepted record form those who indisputably were there. Plainly, this is a very good and deep challenge to the project of origins science. The best answer we can give is that: (i) once we can establish a knowledge of empirically reliable causal patterns and their traces in the present, (ii) where also we can observe traces of the past in the present, and (iii) where finally we can suggest a credible set of initial circumstances and change processes based on known causal patterns that would give rise to sufficiently similar traces, ____________________________________________ (iv) then, we may scientifically infer on best explanation, that the suggested circumstances and dynamics are a credible — albeit inevitably provisional — origins narrative. One thing that we have no right to do, is to claim that such an inferential reconstruction is a fact beyond reasonable dispute or doubt. (Sadly, it is necessary to note this, as there is a tendency to over-claim the factual basis for theories of origins.) As a result, we do not independently and directly know the indisputably true facts or even dates for what happened in the remote past. So also, while we can build models that reconstruct what we may think the past was more or less like, we cannot make direct, theory-independent observations that give us indisputable access to the true facts of the remote past. Therefore, we cannot scientifically know or explain the true facts on our origins beyond reasonable dispute or possibility of correction.
9 --> Methinks, a little humility in light of a sounder grasp of the epistemological limitations of science on origins, would be in order. (And, this also underscores how often, how badly we have been taught concerning the methods, strengths and limitations of science, in school and in popular venues, or even in college. Let us not ever forget that scientism is a substitute religion, a means of inducing gullibility and a means therefore to improper assumption of undue influence and power. Which is what the video on Lewis here that so stirred the ire of some objectors that there was a resort to improper personal attacks, speaks of.) KF kairosfocus
LT: We have just two testimonies of encountering God in person? [Are you speaking of Saul of Tarsus and Pascal? If so, you are leaving off, just off the bat: Peter, James and John, Ezekiel, Daniel, Isaiah, Moshe, Abraham and Elijah, simply from the foundational record behind the Judaeo-Christian view. All of these are on record in the most easily accessible book from classical times, which happens to be foundational to our civilisation.) Where did you get that idea, please explain? Just for one more instance, are you aware of the movement among Muslim peoples based on visionary encounters with Jesus of Nazareth? Are you aware of the many people in our own civilisation and even this day and age who have had Damascus road experiences or Samuel-type experiences or encounters with God through miracles of deliverance, guidance, healing, revelation, confrontation leading to change of life and more, much more? Just in this thread, PJ has had a Damascus Road encounter, and I have had a Samuel experience. I am also alive because of a miracle of guidance that led us to the doctor who saved my life, in answer to my mom's tear-stained prayer of surrender of my life to God after she reached breaking point, having nursed me through yet another desperate night. (There was another night they tell me of, of rushing me to hospital to be treated as an emergency, that I have no recall of whatsoever; I must have been too far gone, maybe status asthmaticus.) I should add, from my grad student days, the account of one of my friends, daughter of a pentecostal bishop and a Jamaica Scholar who was a clinical medical student, and all around lovely young lady of the first rank. Ovarian cysts that were suddenly discovered late, and were suspected to be bad news indeed, type-C bad, bad news. Prayer by here home church, and by friends. By the time that the first exploratory interventions were to be taken vanished. There are so many cases of healings in response to prayer in my homeland that when I had a resurgence of asthma due to the kicking-up of our friend to the south here and the ash, that when I told a medical doc during a workplace checkup that my asthma had last surged due to this and came back under control when I was called out by name for prayer at my second home church in Barbados (by my former Sunday school teachers) -- I had not responded to the call for sick people to come forward for prayer -- she responded that they hear that sort of thing all the time, and it is not surprising news that this sort of healing happens. We could go on and on, but the point is that here are so many cases of people's lives transformed in diverse ways due to encounters with God in one form or another, that the dismissal of all these, becomes a questioning of the credibility of the human mind as a means to know and understand or analyse the real world. But then, that is the same issue that simply comes up from the evolutionary materialist account of the origin of mind, as was already pointed to above, at was it 146? [yes.] KF kairosfocus
You may need to scroll up to read the article when opening link. PJ PeterJ
Kf, Thank you for sharing your testimony and for standing with me. It's very much appreciated as I'm sure it lays you open to attack, as I've seen happen on many occassions to those who contribute to the running of this forum when they take this stance. Bless you. KRock, Thank you for your interest. I'm fairly sure that you can download a Kindle App for your computer, and therefore you could recieve it that way. Failing that the only other way would be to contact my local Christian Bookstore. I will provide a link below. http://www.ttcb.org.uk/?page_id=100 Thanks again. Ps. Only last week i wrote a letter to my local paper (The Shetland Times) after a barrage, it seemed , of very anti-Christian articles in various local media outlets. The letter itslef has now been produced on their website and it has of course stirred up many people. I will post a link here. Well ... it's good for a laugh if nothing else. http://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2013/01/04/where-is-the-evidence-peter-jamieson#comments PeterJ
Graham 2 Cause and effect.... Take a row of domino's that you push over... what is greater? The cause (pushing the domino's over) or the effect? (falling over of the domino's) Give it some thought and lets chat about it! Andre
LarTanner said:
I hope my points have provoked you to take the atheist position and the body of atheist philosophy more seriously than before.
You mean, more seriously than when I was an atheist, for many years, and argued that case vigorously? Just because I disagree with you, and have a different view of the ultimate rationality of the atheistic position, doesn't mean I don't take it seriously; I take it very seriously.
Sorry, but it seems like you are asking the question out of desperation.
I asked asked the question because it interests me as to why people (notably, atheistic materialists) argue against theism - I wasn't trying to keep you from arguing against it out of concern for the condition of my argument. I'm satisfied with the current state of our particular debate, and I also found it quite enjoyable. William J Murray
WJM 258: "rationale surrounding it and its importance in Christian philosophy/doctrine." - My point is that the historical fulfillment of precise functional complex information given prior to the taking place of that information is NOT PHILOSOPHY and it goes will beyond mathematical probability - statistical computations. As far as trying to see God or have an "encounter" like PeterJ portents which is highly subjective and speculative not to mention rare in human experiences thus doubtful in the conclusions drawn on many levels and not such good advise to LarTanner as a means to encounter or see God, the precision of fulfilled pre-stated information provides a true rational basis for Theism. The natural information within the material world can point to, but can not do what can (not necessarily though - a different subject re. revelation) happen via prophecy of the unique nature and detail of pre-Christ information fulfilled to the letter. I don't have much hope my point will be taken anyway for revealed reasons, but I felt moved to for some strange non rational reason (the natural man perceives the things of the Spirit" etc, but there goes hope for ya... remember all you Christians - its the Word that is effective, NOT all these natural arguments from nature as they just leave those so inclined "without excuse." alan
WJM 258: "rationale surrounding it and its importance in Christian philosophy/doctrine." My point is that the historical fulfillment of precise functional complex information given prior to the taking place of that information is NOT PHILOSOPHY and it goes will beyond mathematical probability - statistical computations. As far as trying to see God or have an "encounter" like PeterJ portents which is highly subjective and speculative not to mention rare in human experiences thus doubtful in the conclusions drawn on many levels and not such good advise to LarTanner as a means to encounter or see God, the precision of fulfilled pre-stated information provides a true rational basis for Theism. The natural information within the material world can point to, but can not do what can (not necessarily though - a different subject re. revelation) happen via prophecy of the unique nature and detail of pre-Christ information fulfilled to the letter. I don't have much hope my point will be taken anyway for revealed reasons, but I felt moved to for some strange non rational reason (the natural man perceives the things of the Spirit" etc, but there goes hope for ya... remember all you Christians - its the Word that is effective, NOT all these natural arguments from nature as they just leave those so inclined "without excuse." alan
,If ““I” am my body” as KN holds, then if half of a person’s brain were removed, then the ‘I’ in ““I” am my body” should be less of a “I” as they were before, but that is not the case. The whole ‘I’ in ““I” am my body” stays intact even though the brain suffers severe impairment.
That hardly disproves anything I've been talking about. All it shows is that certain very simplistic and crude hypotheses about cognitive localization are false.
You are the most ‘spiritual’ naturalist I have ever encountered. You are demanding a very special role for consciousness despite the narrow boundaries of physicalism. In this internal struggle you are very persistent and at the same time it is not always understandable how this ambition will fit.
I'm interested in exploring philosophical options that are not confined by the matter/mind dichotomy. I believe that this dichotomy inherits all the problems of Manichaeanism. If one begins with this dichotomy in place at the fundamental level, then one is limited to the following options: materialism/physicalism, idealism/phenomenalism, and dualism. I don't believe that any of those views are ultimately tenable, and part of the reason why is because they presuppose an untenable dichotomy between mind and matter. I believe that we need a much richer set of basic concepts to start off with in order to build an adequate metaphysical system.
Maybe one day you will decide to release yourself from the shackles of naturalism. Maybe that’s why you feel drawn to people of faith.
Maybe! :) Kantian Naturalist
Well LT, let's say that we take the atheistic position and the Theistic position as equiprobable. Given that epistemological failure is 100% certain in the atheistic/materialistic worldview yet finding 100% certainty is not possible in the atheistic worldview, then I am 100% certain the Theistic worldview is correct and the Atheistic worldview is incorrect. Thanks for playing probabilities with me. bornagain77
Following up on my last comment before I had back to work for the rest of the evening. Assume we imagine God's existence or non-existence is equiprobable: Given that we have but two testimonials out of all humanity that say "I have actually encountered God in person," is the existence of God more or less likely than our baseline? Less likely, I say. Plus, given that we have no unambiguous first-hand testimonials from God himself saying "I exist" (Torah included), is the existence of God more or less likely than our baseline? Less likely, again. Everything else is a footnote. Thank you for the discussion. I hope my points have provoked you to take the atheist position and the body of atheist philosophy more seriously than before. LarTanner
@Kantian Naturalist - 268 You are the most 'spiritual' naturalist I have ever encountered. You are demanding a very special role for consciousness despite the narrow boundaries of physicalism. In this internal struggle you are very persistent and at the same time it is not always understandable how this ambition will fit. Maybe one day you will decide to release yourself from the shackles of naturalism. Maybe that's why you feel drawn to people of faith. Box
KN states:
"“I” am my body"
Yet: ,,If "“I” am my body" as KN holds, then if half of a person's brain were removed, then the 'I' in "“I” am my body" should be less of a "I" as they were before, but that is not the case. The whole 'I’ in "“I” am my body" stays intact even though the brain suffers severe impairment:
Miracle Of Mind-Brain Recovery Following Hemispherectomies – Dr. Ben Carson – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994585/ Removing Half of Brain Improves Young Epileptics’ Lives: Excerpt: “We are awed by the apparent retention of memory and by the retention of the child’s personality and sense of humor,” Dr. Eileen P. G. Vining; In further comment from the neuro-surgeons in the John Hopkins study: “Despite removal of one hemisphere, the intellect of all but one of the children seems either unchanged or improved. Intellect was only affected in the one child who had remained in a coma, vigil-like state, attributable to peri-operative complications.” http://www.nytimes.com/1997/08/19/science/removing-half-of-brain-improves-young-epileptics-lives.html
Thus KN suffers empirical failure once again for his worldview! Behold KN's forthcoming sophistry Box :) bornagain77
kairosfocus:
F/N: Blackwell Companion to nat theol, at Amazon, paper — hard cover is over US$ 200 [I guess, mostly for libraries . . . I could buy the soft cover and get it hard bound for a lot less [or could even pull my volume on the topic of book binding and try my hand . . . ])
If you can pull my email address from my profile, or get someone to do it for you, and send me an email with your mailing address I'll send you a copy. Paperback. You'll have to get it hard-bound yourself. :) Mung
In re: Box @ 267
Your ideas are unexpected. What is the location of your “I”?
I am wherever my body is. Right now I am seated at my desk in my apartment. I don't think of "the I" as being somewhere inside my body; "I" am my body, as a living thing. I don't make any claims for originality, really. My ideas are mostly based on Merleau-Ponty and Wilfrid Sellars. My main contribution is that no one has tried to synthesize the ideas of those two philosophers. Among post-Sellarsian philosophers, I've been influenced in approximately equal measure by Churchland and Brandom.
You seem to be arguing for agency (“I”) at the level of the ‘embodied person’ as a whole. Or do I get you wrong?
That's exactly what I'm arguing for! :) Kantian Naturalist
@Kantian Naturalist
Kantian Naturalist: “I did not claim that we are our brains, and I consider it quite foolish to identify oneself with one’s brain. As I emphasized at 166, I qua perceiving, acting, and thinking being am an embodied person, a rational animal, not a brain.”
Your ideas are unexpected. What is the location of your “I”?
Kantian Naturalist: “I could not think if I did not have a brain, but I could not digest good if I did not have a stomach. Brains don’t think; it is animals who think, (…)”
You seem to be arguing for agency (“I”) at the level of the ‘embodied person’ as a whole. Or do I get you wrong? Box
@PeterJ I'm in Canada and do not currently own a Kindle device, how else can I obtain a copy of your book? Thanks K KRock
PJ: I add, when my mom reached desperation and I was at death's door due to childhood asthma, a miracle of guidance led her tot he doctor who saved my life. A doctor we probably would never have heard of otherwise. Looking back across 40 years, that probably was pivotal in my mom's conversion and my own -- that reaffirmed my sense that God had a hand on my life which dated to when I was 5 or so and had a Samuel as a child type experience. And that is just the beginning. I am aware that there are many skeptical types who will dismiss any and all such testimonies, but to do so in aggregate they are sawing off the branch on which we must all sit. And, at this stage in cultures like my own, where there is enough openness to discuss such and a culture in which it is realised that a LOT of people have had such experiences and have been healed (which most doctors accept as happening today), delivered from bondages of all sorts and so forth, skeptical dismissals sound decidedly hollow. For me, ID is NOT about proving God is real, that is something I have known since I was 5, and really never doubted before. KF kairosfocus
WJM@257
I would guess the same number of people that have had a face-to face interaction with China; zero. Even when you’re in China, that you’re actually in China can only be inferred from your understanding of what it would be like. It’s not like China can answer questions. People experience god, I suggest, in much the same way they experience China. Or in much the same way they experience love. Or color. Or joy. Or logic. Or morality.
Are you trying to move the goalposts? I asked a very simple, straightforward question about direct, first-hand experience with God himself. You've answered zero, no one has seen God (although the Torah says that Moses saw God in person, and there are some other scriptural vagaries that could be brought in). We agree! Now, for a refresher, here's what you said about China in #239:
I’ve never been to China. I will likely never go to China. I consider the aggregate amount of testimony of people that have been there, mapmakers, and the overwhelming amount of anecdotal evidence available that support a conclusion that China exists to be sufficient for a finding of “China more likely exists than not” without having to examine any individual testimony or grill any individual about their supposed “China experience” – even if many different people describe China in very different terms.
Here, you accept having set foot in China as acceptable first-hand experience and evidence of there being such a place. There's no waffling around "experiencing" China as if it were love or a ham sandwich. So, we can say that between the two of us, the total number of testimony that says "I've seen and met God" amounts to Moses and PeterJ in #259. To add insult to injury, you're creating a new category of "god-like" beings. That category is undefined in the OP, and it seems like a separate question to rationally accept or reject the existence of god-like beings. Surely, onlookers see all the mental and emotional gymnastics involved in holding on to a God concept that actually seems to have very, very little testimonial support. Yet you maintain that atheism is rationally untenable. Tell me, are all the people who have not met God face-to-face to be counted as evidence against the being existing? Finally, you ask:
why work so hard trying to undermine the evidence for god? From your belief system point of view, what’s the point?
Sorry, but it seems like you are asking the question out of desperation. I'm not actually working so hard at it. You said that atheism was rationally untenable, I joined the discussion to take the opposing view. From my point of view, the point of the discussion is rooting around the details. Kairosfocus hates when I want to look at details and ask questions. He says over and again that I'm playing word games and seeking to distract. But I find the details most fascinating of all. Perhaps that's why I gravitated to textual scholarship in early medieval texts: the most boring part of the most boring part of scholarship. I like the details, and I find very often that when we look at the details, what we find is they usually don't allow the kinds of grand inferences that people like to make. They sit there, ugly and brutish, waiting for someone to spin a magical, mystical narrative from them. LarTanner
@ PeterJ Amen brother! What about all the testimonial evidence of people coming face to face with evil? I posted (post #12) a link to an article in which I find to be compelling evidence to the existence of evil, the very same evil recorded in scripture that Jesus and the Apostles often dealt with. Can't help but post this link to Chris Tomlin's song "Awake My Soul" because I feel that over the last few years, that's exactley what God's done in my life... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALW1AwdKEnM KRock
The conversation seems to have moved on quite a bit here, so I will wait for another opportunity to engage with Stephen's objection to nominalism @ 209, though I believe I can meet it. Whether or not I can actually meet it, of course, is a separate issue. However, William Murray's objections @ 221 are, I believe, pre-empted by my remarks @ 166. I did not claim that we are our brains, and I consider it quite foolish to identify oneself with one's brain. As I emphasized at 166, I qua perceiving, acting, and thinking being am an embodied person, a rational animal, not a brain. A brain is a part of an animal, and a well-functioning brain is part of a well-functioning animal, and a brain that encodes social and linguistic norms is part of a rational animal. I could not think if I did not have a brain, but I could not digest good if I did not have a stomach. Brains don't think; it is animals who think, and brains are part of how thinking happens. As thinking animals, our brains are constantly receiving information from our social and physical environments and use that information to modify their mediation between sensory input and motor output. The social environments of large-brained primates include implicit norms and rules, and with the acquisition of language comes the ability to render those norms explicit, to consider whether and how they might be revised, and so on. The norms that it seems impossible to use to revise are called "principles" or sometimes "laws". So I really don't think that a commitment to rationalism is incompatible with naturalism; put otherwise, I don't think that one must be committed to theism in metaphysics in order to explain rationalism in epistemology. As my motivations and purposes: I don't think that theism is irrational, or unsupported by evidence, or what-have-you. I'm quite fond of my theistic parents and friends. I've been in serious relationships with people of faith. So I'm not out to heckle or harass theists, or argue that they're wrong to believe that they do, or whatever. My agenda is to argue that atheism/naturalism does not "shirk any epistemic burdens," to use Plantinga's lovely phrase -- that it is not less reasonable than theism -- nor is it any more reasonable. Considered philosophically, theism and atheism are on a par. I'd imagine that this would be welcome news to those who are religious on Kierkegaardian or Jamesian grounds, but perhaps there is no one here who answers to that description. Kantian Naturalist
Peter, I looked at your testimony and I believe you. bornagain77
F/N: I have a moment again, so let me address the attemp0ts to dismiss the Plantinga free will defense. When the attempts move beyond vague we have an objection claims -- an objection is not a warrant -- they usually pivot on misreading a defense as a theodicy. Then, the idea is that since I reject or deride one or more terms the argument fails. Mistake. (Usually, piled on the further error of failing to address the Boethius point: if no God, whence good? Until atheists can ground morality, good and evil objectively on a foundational IS in their views, they should not be allowed to appeal to the problem of evil. Attempts to appeal to infinite regresses or circular patterns fail (as has been discussed elsewhere circles cannot ground anything and infinite regresses cannot be traversed by warranting step by step), and so the first problem atheists need to answer is whether they have a right to the argument at all.) The pivot of the atheistical claim on the problem of evil is that there is an incoherence in the claimed nature of God. That is, there are elements that affirm and deny one and the same claim, or imply such. That is extremely stringent, and it opens the way to the strategy Plantinga exploits. If claims X1, X2, . . . Xn are thought to be self contradictory, but some augmenting claim E can be added and then the set {X1, . . . Xn} now is seen to be consistent with E, the original set cannot be inconsistent, so long as E is itself a coherent logical possibility -- there is a possible world in which E AND {X1, . . . Xn} holds means that {X1, . . . Xn} must be coherent. Possibility, not plausibility to a skeptical mind. We can call this the missing piece solution or strategy, from its resemblance to a way to solve a jigsaw puzzle. So, in a skeletal nutshell, here is how Plantinga uses the strategy -- I am of course summarising a much more complex deployment in a full bore technical phil presentation by a former president of the American Philosophers Association. A presentation that won the grudging acknowledgement of champions of the incoherence argument: ____________ >> Plantinga's free-will defense, in a skeletal form, allows us to effectively address the problem. For, it is claimed that the following set of theistic beliefs embed an unresolvable contradiction: 1. God exists 2. God is omnipotent – all powerful 3. God is omniscient – all-knowing 4. God is omni-benevolent – all-good 5. God created the world 6. The world contains evil To do so, there is an implicit claim that, (2a) if he exists, God is omnipotent and so capable of -- but obviously does not eliminate -- evil. So, at least one of 2 – 5 should be surrendered. But all of these claims are central to the notion of God, so it is held that the problem is actually 1. Therefore, NOT-1: God does not exist. However, it has been pointed out by Plantinga and others that: 2a is not consistent with what theists actually believe: if the elimination of some evil would lead to a worse evil, or prevent the emergence of a greater good, then God might have a good reason to permit some evil in the cosmos. Specifically, what if “many evils result from human free will or from the fact that our universe operates under natural laws or from the fact that humans exist in a setting that fosters soul-making . . . [and that such a world] contains more good than a world that does not” ? In this case, Theists propose that 2a should be revised: 2b: “A good, omnipotent God will eliminate evil as far as he can without either losing a greater good or bringing about a greater evil.” But, once this is done, the alleged contradiction collapses. Further, Alvin Plantinga – through his free will defense -- was able to show that the theistic set is actually consistent. He did this by augmenting the set with a further proposition that is logically possible (as opposed to seeming plausible to one who may be committed to another worldview) and which makes the consistency clear. That proposition, skeletally, is 5a: “God created a world (potentially) containing evil; and has a good reason for doing so.” Propositions 1, 2b, 3, 4, and 5a are plainly consistent, and entail 6. The essence of that defense is:
“A world containing creatures who are significantly free (and freely perform more good than evil actions) is more valuable, all else being equal, than a world containing no free creatures . . . God can create free creatures, but he can’t cause or determine them to do only what is right. For . . . then they aren’t significantly free after all . . . He could only have forestalled the occurrence of moral evil only by removing the possibility of moral good.” [NB: This assumes that moral good reflects the power of choice: if we are merely robots carrying out programs, then we cannot actually love, be truthful, etc.] [From: Clark, Kelley James. Return to Reason. (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1994), pp. 69 – 70, citing Plantinga, God, Freedom and Evil, (Eerdmans, 1974), p. 30.]
Nor is the possible world known as heaven a good counter-example. For, heaven would exist as a world in which the results of choices made to live by the truth in love across a lifetime have culminated in their eternal reward. This we may see from an argument made by the apostle Paul:
Rom 2:6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 78 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [NIV]
Anticipating the onward response that in at least some possible worlds, there are free creatures, all of whom freely do what is right, Plantinga asserts a further possibility: trans-world depravity. That is, in all worlds God could create in which a certain person, say Gordon, exists; then that person would have freely gone wrong at least once. And, what if it is further possible that this holds for every class of created, morally capable being? (Then, there would be no possible worlds in which moral good is possible but in which moral evil would not in fact occur. So the benefit of moral good would entail that the world would contain transworld depraved creatures.) Moreover, Plantinga proposes that there is a possible state of affairs in which God and natural evil can exist. For instance, if all natural evils are the result of the actions of significantly free creatures such as Satan and his minions, then since it is logically possible that God could not have created a world with a greater balance of good over evil if it did not contain such creatures, God and natural evil are compatible. At this point, albeit grudgingly, leading atheologians (Such as Mackie and Williams) concede that the deductive form of the problem of evil stands overturned. Thus, a new question is put on the table. It is: But what if the world seems to contain too much evil, and evil that is apparently pointless, i.e. gratuitous? First, the greater good “absorbs” at least some of the evils. To this, the Christian Theist further responds that there are goods in the world that are left out of the account so far; especially, that the fall of mankind led to the greatest good of all: that God loved the world and gave his Son, setting in motion the programme of redemption as a supreme good that absorbs all evils. That is, it is rational for a Christian to believe there are no unabsorbed evils, even though the atheologian may beg to differ with the Christian’s beliefs. However, it should be noted that there is an existential or pastoral form of the problem of evil (as we saw above): where the overwhelming force of evil and pain brings us to doubt God. To that, no mere rational argument will suffice; for it is a life-challenge we face, as did Job. And, as a perusal of Job 23:1 – 7, 38:1 – 7, 40:1 – 8, 42:1 – 6, God may be more interested in exposing our underlying motives and calling for willingness to trust him even where we cannot trace him, than in satisfying our queries and rebutting our pained accusations. That is, it is at least possible that God is primarily in the business of soul-making. >> _____________ Remember, this all pivots on a crucial distinction between a theodicy and a defense [which takes the common skeptical demand for plausibility to "me" off the table], and the way that we can show a set of [propositions to be coherent by augmenting them, i.e. often by constructing a logically possible model world in which these propositions are seen to cohere. Typically, such is an "explanation," but that is not always so. I trust that this outline will prove helpful as a summary of a complex argument. KF kairosfocus
LarTanner "So, let’s start with the testimonial evidence of direct interaction with God." I've posted this on here once before, and don't suppose anyone will look at it, but I came face to face with God in a drugs rehab in 2006. I have just recently published a book about my life, and how meeting God transformed my heart and mind. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Design-for-Life-ebook/dp/B00A73ZDUC/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1357772064&sr=1-1 PeterJ
Alan, Via my argument here, fulfilled prophecy from those speaking on behalf of god only tends to support the conclusion (that it isn't rational to be an athiest given consideration of available evidence and argument). Outside of that, I don't hold myself qualified to speak on the subject of scripture. KF and BA are far wiser and more informed than I about scripture and the reasoning and rationale surrounding it and its importance in Christian philosophy/doctrine. William J Murray
LarTanner asks:
For instance, how many testimonials do you know of human beings who have had the direct, personal face-to-face interaction with the God you define in the OP?
I would guess the same number of people that have had a face-to face interaction with China; zero. Even when you're in China, that you're actually in China can only be inferred from your understanding of what it would be like. It's not like China can answer questions. People experience god, I suggest, in much the same way they experience China. Or in much the same way they experience love. Or color. Or joy. Or logic. Or morality. Also, interactions with god-like beings (Jesus, White Buffalo Woman, etc.) count as far as #7 is concerned, just as experiences of people claiming to be chinese or of chinese descent count. It tends to support the central premise. I wonder if you would answer a question for me: why work so hard trying to undermine the evidence for god? From your belief system point of view, what's the point? William J Murray
LarTanner 248: Good example: You define yourself right out of what you say you are seeking by being ONLY "natural" - If you really WANT what you ask - Find and study the indisputable evidence provided by that "Person" in the exact and extensive prophetic fulfillment. You may meet him in this way, but it won't, and can't in the "way" you want. True prophecy is beyond nature and serves a true seeker to see beyond the confines of his own intellect, ideas, beliefs, desires even....but it is HOT! alan
Re. "fact" in last sentence - fact of this special nature rather than etc. alan
But it gets more interesting LT. This infinite dimensional quantum wave state, which requires a infinite amount of information to describe it properly, and which can, theoretically, be encoded with an infinite amount of information, is found to collapse to just a single bit of information:
Quantum Computing – Stanford Encyclopedia Excerpt: Theoretically, a single qubit can store an infinite amount of information, yet when measured (consciously observed) it yields only the classical result (0 or 1) ,,, http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-quantcomp/#2.1
Moreover, consciousness is found to precede wave collapse to a single bit state:
Logical Proofs of Infinite External Consciousness - January 18, 2012 Excerpt: (Proof # 2) If you believe in the theory of Quantum Mechanics, then you believe that conscious observation must be present to collapse a wave function. If consciousness did not exist prior to matter coming into existence, then it is impossible that matter could ever come into existence. Additionally, this rules out the possibility that consciousness is the result of quantum mechanical processes. Either consciousness existed before matter or QM is wrong, one or the other is indisputably true. http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/01/18/logical-proofs-of-infinite-external-consciousness/
Now, I find the preceding to be absolutely fascinating! A photon, in its quantum wave state, is found to be mathematically defined as a ‘infinite-dimensional’ state, which ‘requires an infinite amount of information’ to describe it properly, can be encoded with information in its 'infinite dimensional' state, and this ‘infinite dimensional’ photon is found to collapse, instantaneously, and thus ‘non-locally’, to just a ’1 or 0? state, out of a infinite number of possibilities that the photon could have collapsed to instead! Moreover, consciousness is found to precede the collapse of the wavefunction to its particle state. Now my question to materialistic atheists is this, "Exactly what ’cause’ has been postulated throughout history to be completely independent of any space-time constraints, as well as possessing infinite knowledge, so as to be the ‘sufficient cause’ to explain what we see in the quantum wave collapse of a photon??? Now LT you may think this is 'logically incoherent' but all I can say is 'deal with it' because this is the way reality actually is: Verse and Music:
John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. God of Wonders by Third Day - music http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CBNE25rtnE
bornagain77
To WJ Murray: No one has taken my "challenge" in this thread (#152, 164, 173). Perhaps you would. Scripture is often sited on this blog and if it wasn't I wouldn't present it. ALL the arguments/positions presented so far attempting to answer your question from analyzing the natural World - Universe are fine, but apparently not good enough. I present one that is from "nature" (space time fulfillment of a plethora of exact and wide ranging prophecies), but from "beyond nature" presenting inescapable proof of a divine Creator. Yes and in this specifically eyes to see and ears to hear apply most profoundly, but still this evidence is surely beyond debate. This burning bush is just too hot for the natural mind/heart. I am saying the many fulfilled and exact prophecies eliminate any possibility of atheism being rational and vise versa - theism can be totally rational if fact rather than religious philosophy is the foundation for it. alan
LT you state in 237:
"One of the positive arguments for atheism is that the God you define (a definition that includes qualified omniscience, omnipotence, and such) is logically incoherent as a concept.,,,, there are several families of argumentation presenting positive cases for atheism being the actual state of the universe."
To which I submit that your perceived logical incoherency of Theism is not really a logical incoherency at all but that,,,
"the "paradox" is only a conflict between reality and your feeling of what reality "ought to be." Richard Feynman, in The Feynman Lectures on Physics, vol III, p. 18-9 (1965)
In other words the logical incoherency arises not from how reality is actually structured, but how you, as a naturalist, imagine reality ought to be structured
"It is often stated that of all the theories proposed in this century, the silliest is quantum theory. In fact, some say that the only thing that quantum theory has going for it is that it is unquestionably correct." Michio Kaku, in Hyperspace (1995), p. 263
But to counter the charge of incoherency for a omniscient, omnipotent Being (God) to account for reality, I want to draw a few pieces of evidence from my earlier posts on "Quantum Evidence for a Theistic Universe". One piece of evidence I submitted was:
Wave function Excerpt "wave functions form an abstract vector space",,, This vector space is infinite-dimensional, because there is no finite set of functions which can be added together in various combinations to create every possible function. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_function#Wave_functions_as_an_abstract_vector_space The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences – Eugene Wigner – 1960 Excerpt: We now have, in physics, two theories of great power and interest: the theory of quantum phenomena and the theory of relativity.,,, The two theories operate with different mathematical concepts: the four dimensional Riemann space and the infinite dimensional Hilbert space, http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDrama/reading/Wigner.html
Now many naturalists have tried to say that this infinite dimensional Hilbert space that describes the wave function of each photon particle is merely abstract (I guess it is logically incoherent for them to imagine that an actual infinity exists), but recent work has verified the reality of this infinite dimensional Hilbert space:
Direct measurement of the quantum wavefunction - June 2011 Excerpt: The wavefunction is the complex distribution used to completely describe a quantum system, and is central to quantum theory. But despite its fundamental role, it is typically introduced as an abstract element of the theory with no explicit definition.,,, Here we show that the wavefunction can be measured directly by the sequential measurement of two complementary variables of the system. The crux of our method is that the first measurement is performed in a gentle way through weak measurement so as not to invalidate the second. The result is that the real and imaginary components of the wavefunction appear directly on our measurement apparatus. We give an experimental example by directly measuring the transverse spatial wavefunction of a single photon, a task not previously realized by any method. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v474/n7350/full/nature10120.html
,,,The following paper mathematically corroborated the preceding experiment and cleaned up some pretty nasty probabilistic incongruities that arose from a purely statistical interpretation, i.e. it seems that stacking a ‘random infinity’, (parallel universes to explain quantum wave collapse), on top of another ‘random infinity’, to try to explain quantum entanglement (within parallel universes), leads to irreconcilable mathematical absurdities within quantum mechanics:,,,
Quantum Theory’s ‘Wavefunction’ Found to Be Real Physical Entity: Scientific American – November 2011 Excerpt: David Wallace, a philosopher of physics at the University of Oxford, UK, says that the theorem is the most important result in the foundations of quantum mechanics that he has seen in his 15-year professional career. “This strips away obscurity and shows you can’t have an interpretation of a quantum (wave) state as probabilistic,” he says. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=quantum-theorys-wavefunction The quantum (wave) state cannot be interpreted statistically – November 2011 http://lanl.arxiv.org/abs/1111.3328
,,,It is also interesting to note that the following experiment actually encoded information into a photon while it was in its quantum wave state, thus destroying the notion, held by many, that the wave function was not ‘physically real’ but was merely ‘abstract’. i.e. How can information possibly be encoded into something that is not physically real but merely abstract?,,,
Ultra-Dense Optical Storage – on One Photon Excerpt: Researchers at the University of Rochester have made an optics breakthrough that allows them to encode an entire image’s worth of data into a photon, slow the image down for storage, and then retrieve the image intact. http://www.physorg.com/news88439430.html Information In Photon - Robert W. Boyd - slides from presentation http://www.quantumphotonics.uottawa.ca/assets/pdf/Boyd-Como-InPho.pdf Information in a Photon - Robert W. Boyd - 2010 Excerpt: By its conventional definition, a photon is one unit of excitation of a mode of the electromagnetic field. The modes of the electromagnetic field constitute a countably infinite set of basis functions, and in this sense the amount of information that can be impressed onto an individual photon is unlimited. http://www.pqeconference.com/pqe2011/abstractd/013.pdf
Moreover, the naturalist simply has no way to get behind 'infinitely fast' correlations found within quantum mechanics:
Looking Beyond Space and Time to Cope With Quantum Theory – (Oct. 28, 2012) Excerpt: To derive their inequality, which sets up a measurement of entanglement between four particles, the researchers considered what behaviours are possible for four particles that are connected by influences that stay hidden and that travel at some arbitrary finite speed. Mathematically (and mind-bogglingly), these constraints define an 80-dimensional object. The testable hidden influence inequality is the boundary of the shadow this 80-dimensional shape casts in 44 dimensions. The researchers showed that quantum predictions can lie outside this boundary, which means they are going against one of the assumptions. Outside the boundary, either the influences can’t stay hidden, or they must have infinite speed.,,, The remaining option is to accept that (quantum) influences must be infinitely fast,,, “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” says Nicolas Gisin, Professor at the University of Geneva, Switzerland,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121028142217.htm
bornagain77
Andre: Im back at work now, so I dont have much time for games. Could you give a simple exapmple to illustrate the point ? Graham2
With #248 LarTanner is now officially reaching for straws. George E.
BA77, Better watch out for that American Vision outfit, they're preterists. :) Mung
WJM, The rebuttal to your China analogy is that testimony of China's existence is different than testimony of God's existence. For instance, how many testimonials do you know of human beings who have had the direct, personal face-to-face interaction with the God you define in the OP? I'm looking for the anecdotal evidence of having met that particular and singular being you have define. Not Jesus. Not the Holy Spirit. Not angels. Not demons. Not witches. Not Nature. Only the God you define. So, let's start with the testimonial evidence of direct interaction with God. LarTanner
Graham You are kidding right? The question is simple, can effects be greater than their causes? Andre
LT said:
And what’s more, it’s no longer correct or proper for anyone to say as you do that “The belief that god does not exist…or that it isn’t more likely that god exists than not, can only be a position based on ignorance of the available evidence and argument for god, or a hyper-skeptical, intellectually dishonest, ideologically biased, a priori dismissal of all of the evidence for the existence of god.”
I hold that it is, based on an objective examination of the accumulative evidence and argument for both positions. Note that I'm not saying that this proves that god exists, any more than an aggregate acceptance of accumulative evidence and argument proves that the Earth is the center of the universe; but in the presence of such a glacier of testimony, evidence and argument, one requires clear and definite evidence for heliocentrism to balance or tip the scales in the other direction. We do not have such evidence for atheism that can balance the scales and then tip them in favor of atheism. Note, I didn't argue that agnosticism wasn't a rationally tenable position.
Let me know if I have this right. If so, I hope you understand that I think there are good reasons not to subscribe to your argument.
It's not people "seeming" to say it; they say it. History is full and replete with testimony and anecdote that support the existence of a god of some sort, which I've boiled down for my premise, throwing out (more or less) the "dirty bathwater" (and probably some clean) to keep the baby in the crib for debate. Let's also remember that I'm not claiming that it's not rational to doubt the existence of god based on good arguments to the contrary; but doubt just cannot carry the house from one side of the divide to the other - not rationally, anyway. I would like to hear your rebuttal to my China analogy, though. William J Murray
LarTanner (241): “I have given you the means and resources to see for yourself that atheism is a tenable position for an intellectually honest, rational, and informed person.”
‘Logically incoherency’ is out. So which atheistic arguments remain valid? Box
Andre @228: effect greater than the cause Could you define 'greater' ? Graham2
BA77,
Now LT, are you really going to sit here and say that Naturalists ... have anything close to coherent answer to the creation event of the Big Bang?
No, I won't say this because it's irrelevant to WJM's OP, which is strictly about the positive case for atheism. Now, I don't know what question about the Big Bang you think needs answering; maybe you'll enlighten me. But are you saying theists already have the coherent answer to the problem? If so, is the answer settled and done or are there, just possibly, open questions about one or more aspects? LarTanner
LT, you seem to be much more impressed with your referenced site than is warranted. For instance I noticed a picture about half way down the page: http://www.iep.utm.edu/wp-content/media/atheism.jpg Now LT, are you really going to sit here and say that Naturalists, after being drug kicking and screaming to the reality of a creation event of the entire universe, have anything close to coherent answer to the creation event of the Big Bang? If you believe they do you are hopelessly whistling in the dark. You may play word games in your imagination is you wish but it is just plain metaphysical folly to hold that they are coherent in their formulation! bornagain77
WJM@239, I used the word "qualified" to acknowledge your "inasmuch as principles of logic allow." However, the problem is that it is unclear that the principles of logic allow such traits as omniscience and omnipotence. And of course, if you add too much qualification and make God the servant of logic, then the ontological argument goes out the proverbial window. But the main point, if you must address only one, is that I have not simply pointed you "towards a website full of atheistic arguments." I have given you the means and resources to see for yourself that atheism is a tenable position for an intellectually honest, rational, and informed person. And what's more, it's no longer correct or proper for anyone to say as you do that "The belief that god does not exist...or that it isn’t more likely that god exists than not, can only be a position based on ignorance of the available evidence and argument for god, or a hyper-skeptical, intellectually dishonest, ideologically biased, a priori dismissal of all of the evidence for the existence of god." I understand your argument on China, that the aggregated weight of people seeming to say that such a place exists is good enough for you. If I interpret you correctly, you are saying that individual testimonies (of angels, say) may be flawed or outright frauds but the sheer number of similar stories makes it likely that something like angels themselves do in fact exist. Let me know if I have this right. If so, I hope you understand that I think there are good reasons not to subscribe to your argument. LarTanner
LT you ask: 'Can I ask you, as a believer, is this intimacy important in how you understand the deity and your relationship?' Well actually I've been wondering as to why I have not felt the overwhelming love of God as have so many people have told me about in their conversion experiences. All I know, from my personal experience, is that God was there for me in a tangible, caring, way at a very low point in my life that left no doubt whatsoever as to His reality. As to this 'overwhelming love' you are wondering about, perhaps it will help you, as it did me, to look at NDE's of people who were actually in the presence of God so that you might get a feel for the overwhelming love they are talking about: In The Presence Of Almighty God - The NDE of Mickey Robinson - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045544 “The Light was brighter than hundreds of suns, but it did not hurt my eyes. I had never seen anything as luminous or as golden as this Light, and I immediately understood it was entirely composed of love, all directed at me. This wonderful, vibrant love was very personal, as you might describe secular love, but also sacred. Though I had never seen God, I recognized this light as the Light of God. But even the word God seemed too small to describe the magnificence of that presence. I was with my Creator, in holy communication with that presence. The Light was directed at me and through me; it surrounded me and pierced me. It existed just for me.” – testimony taken from Kimberly Clark Sharp’s Near Death Experience http://www.near-death.com/sharp.html video - Howard Storm continues to share his gripping story of his own near death experience. Today, he picks up just as Jesus was rescuing him from the horrors of Hell and carrying him into the glories of Heaven. http://www.daystar.com/ondemand/joni-heaven-howard-storm-j924/#.UKvFrYYsE31 Of note: If scientists want to find the source for the supernatural light which made the "3D - photographic negative" image on the Shroud I suggest they look to the thousands of documented Near-Death Experiences (NDE's) in Judeo-Christian cultures. It is in their testimonies that you will find mention of an indescribably bright 'Light' or 'Being of Light' who is always described as being of a much brighter intensity of light than the people had ever seen before. Ask the Experts: What Is a Near-Death Experience (NDE)? - article with video Excerpt: "Very often as they're moving through the tunnel, there's a very bright mystical light ... not like a light we're used to in our earthly lives. People call this mystical light, brilliant like a million times a million suns..." - Jeffery Long M.D. - has studied NDE's extensively http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/beyondbelief/experts-death-experience/story?id=14221154#.T_gydvW8jbI All people who have been in the presence of 'The Being of Light', while having a deep NDE, have no doubt whatsoever that the 'The Being of Light' they were in the presence of is none other than 'The Lord God Almighty' of heaven and earth. Near-death experiencers who have actually seen the brilliant light and experienced the ecstatic love, know without a doubt they have seen God. Once they enter into the light of God, they never want to leave. http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research21.html Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4200200/ further notes; Scientists say Turin Shroud is supernatural - December 2011 Excerpt: And in case there was any doubt about the preternatural degree of energy needed to make such distinct marks, the Enea report spells it out: "This degree of power cannot be reproduced by any normal UV source built to date." http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud-is-supernatural-6279512.html Another very interesting point about the Shroud is, since the Shroud had to be extremely close to the body when the image was made, I mean ‘extremely close’ as to mean in an order of a few inches as opposed to a few, or several, feet as was once suggested by the camera obscura method proposed to be used by DaVinci, and also considering the lack of any distinctive shadow patterns on the image, it is apparent the only place this supernatural light could have possibly come from, that made the image on the Shroud, was directly from the body itself ! Yes, you read that last sentence right: THE SOURCE OF LIGHT WAS THE BODY ITSELF !!! God's crowning achievement for this universe was not when He created this universe. God’s crowning achievement for this universe was when He Himself inhabited the human body He had purposely created the whole universe for, to sanctify human beings unto Himself through the death and resurrection of his “Son” Jesus Christ. This is truly something which should fill anyone who reads this with awe. The wonder of it all is something I can scarcely begin to understand much less write about. Thus, I will finish this article with a scripture. Hebrews 2:14-15 "Since we, God's children, are human beings - made of flesh and blood - He became flesh and blood too by being born in human form; for only as a human being could He die and in dying break the power of the devil who had the power of death. Only in that way could He deliver those who through fear of death have been living all their lives as slaves to constant dread." bornagain77
LT said:
Hold on. One of the positive arguments for atheism is that the God you define (a definition that includes qualified omniscience, omnipotence, and such) is logically incoherent as a concept.
Refer back to the OP:
omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent inasmuch as principles of logic allow; an interventionist as necessary to facilitate movement towards final cause and also inasmuch as logical principles are not violated; source of logic — “reason itself.”
One can hardly claim that these attributes are logically contradictory in terms of this argument if I specifically state that they only apply as far as logically permissable. This is why simply pointing towards a website full of atheistic arguments is problematical in this case; they don't address the "boiled down" concept of god I've posited here. As far as testimony is concerned: I've never been to China. I will likely never go to China. I consider the aggregate amount of testimony of people that have been there, mapmakers, and the overwhelming amount of anecdotal evidence available that support a conclusion that China exists to be sufficient for a finding of "China more likely exists than not" without having to examine any individual testimony or grill any individual about their supposed "China experience" - even if many different people describe China in very different terms. It would be unreasonable of me to say that it is not more likely than not that China exists in the face of the sheer weight of anecdotal and testimonial evidence avaialable. William J Murray
Bornagain77, Thanks for the song link. I was noticing the lyrics:
I've been the one held down in chains Beneath the weight of all my shame I've been the one to believe That where I am You cannot reach
It's interesting how the voice of the lyric seem himself/herself as one who is bound and un-free, one who feels enornous shame. That must be very painful, emotionally. Yet, these emotionally-driven worship songs seem to focus intently on the body and on a deep, impassioned intimacy between the worshiper and the deity. Here, for instance, is part of the song, "The Potter's Hand":
Take me, mold me, use me, fill me. I give my life to the Potter's hand. Call me, guide me, lead me, walk beside me. I give my life to the Potter's hand.
Another example, this is from "Forever Reign":
Oh, I'm running to Your arms I'm running to Your arms The riches of Your love Will always be enough Nothing compares to Your embrace Light of the world forever reign
Can I ask you, as a believer, is this intimacy important in how you understand the deity and your relationship? No need to respond if it's too personal. Apologies if it is. I was just curious, as I said, from seeing the lyrics. LarTanner
WJM @233,
Inaccurate – I never said there was no rational basis for atheism; however, “basis” isn’t all that is required for a rationally sound belief system. I have a rational basis for believing that the sun revolves around the Earth (confirmed, empirical observation), but there is more required than just a rational “basis” for that belief. What I argued is that atheism is a rationally untenable position – it is not ultimately justifiable.
I now see the distinction you are making. Thanks for clarifying.
IOW, arguments that god is not loving, not kind, a bad designer and inefficient are not germane to the argument I initiated, leaving atheists with very little in the way of positive argument or evidence.
Hold on. One of the positive arguments for atheism is that the God you define (a definition that includes qualified omniscience, omnipotence, and such) is logically incoherent as a concept. Yes, many have defended coherence, but that's beside the main point. That main point is that this is an example of a positive case being made and being rationally tenable. Another of the positive cases being made is that the God concept is unnecessary for explaining natural objects and occurrences. You can read the entire IEP summary, and its referenced sources, but my point is (again) that there are several families of argumentation presenting positive cases for atheism being the actual state of the universe. Finally,
The problem of simply dismissing thousands of years of testimony by billions of people whose testimony about other things would largely not be dismissed; atheism has no counterbalance to the immense weight of testimony on the subject.
I don't see the problem, partly because I don't think testimony is being dismissed. Quite the contrary. Surely, you agree that any testimony from any source ought to be evaluated, and evaluated in context. You'll also agree that no testimony or source can be given a pass in advance. This is part of taking testimony seriously, but another big part of taking testimony seriously is acknowledging that the testimony may be outright false, biased, mis-remembered, mis-characterized, or otherwise incomplete. It may also be 100 percent true. So, I personally take seriously the testimony of so-and-so that he was visited by an angel and had verses of scripture revealed to him. Should I believe this specific testimony? Should I believe it fully? Should I believe every detail? Or do I need to say only that it's possible that the event happened because angels are real and they sometimes do visit people and sometimes do reveal information to people? I also take seriously the testimony of so-and-so, who tells of the prophet who gained insight into all human suffering after some 40-50 days of prayer, meditation, and fasting. But again, what is the proper attitude to such testimonies, in specific and aggregated? Perhaps it would help if you had a specific testimonial you saw being dismissed, and how so dismissed. But I think your issue is more that the atheist can (and frequently does) take supernatural claims seriously and still reject (or doubt) that they are true. That's one thing that always strikes me about these discussions: To conclude atheism is always to be irrational and wrong. LarTanner
A song for you G2 and LT: MercyMe - You Are I Am (Official Lyric Video) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JI4CPfuLW0 bornagain77
But the mystery of the Schroedinger equation goes even deeper to further reveal 'the spirituality of mathematics' to us.
Wheeler's Classic Delayed Choice Experiment: Excerpt: Now, for many billions of years the photon is in transit in region 3. Yet we can choose (many billions of years later) which experimental set up to employ – the single wide-focus, or the two narrowly focused instruments. We have chosen whether to know which side of the galaxy the photon passed by (by choosing whether to use the two-telescope set up or not, which are the instruments that would give us the information about which side of the galaxy the photon passed). We have delayed this choice until a time long after the particles "have passed by one side of the galaxy, or the other side of the galaxy, or both sides of the galaxy," so to speak. Yet, it seems paradoxically that our later choice of whether to obtain this information determines which side of the galaxy the light passed, so to speak, billions of years ago. So it seems that time has nothing to do with effects of quantum mechanics. And, indeed, the original thought experiment was not based on any analysis of how particles evolve and behave over time – it was based on the mathematics. This is what the mathematics predicted for a result, and this is exactly the result obtained in the laboratory. http://www.bottomlayer.com/bottom/basic_delayed_choice.htm "Thus one decides the photon shall have come by one route or by both routes after it has already done its travel" John A. Wheeler Alain Aspect speaks on John Wheeler's Delayed Choice Experiment - video http://vimeo.com/38508798 Genesis, Quantum Physics and Reality Excerpt: Simply put, an experiment on Earth can be made in such a way that it determines if one photon comes along either on the right or the left side or if it comes (as a wave) along both sides of the gravitational lens (of the galaxy) at the same time. However, how could the photons have known billions of years ago that someday there would be an earth with inhabitants on it, making just this experiment? ,,, This is big trouble for the multi-universe theory and for the "hidden-variables" approach. http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2000/PSCF3-00Zoeller-Greer.html.ori
Moreover,
Wheeler's Delayed Choice Experiment - 2010 Excerpt: The Delayed Choice experiment changes the boundary conditions of the Schrodinger equation after the particle enters the first beamsplitter. http://www.physics.drexel.edu/~bob/TermPapers/WheelerDelayed.pdf
But why should a mathematical equation even care when I decide to implement boundary conditions to look at a particle? Mathematical equations can't care about anything! Only God can care if and when I decide to look at any particular particle! In fact, as if the preceding was not enough to refute G2's 'maths just is' belief, 'the spirituality of mathematics' has now been revealed to a even deeper level through recent quantum entanglement experiments. The foundation of quantum mechanics within science is now so solid that researchers were able to bring forth this following proof from quantum entanglement experiments;
An experimental test of all theories with predictive power beyond quantum theory – May 2011 Excerpt: More precisely, we perform various measurements (conscious observations) on distant entangled photons, and, under the assumption that these measurements (conscious observations) are freely chosen (free will), we give a upper bound on how well any alternative theory could predict their outcomes.,,,, Hence, we can immediately refute any already considered or yet-to-be-proposed alternative model with more predictive power than this (Quantum Theory). http://arxiv.org/pdf/1105.0133.pdf Can quantum theory be improved? - July 23, 2012 Excerpt: However, in the new paper, the physicists have experimentally demonstrated that there cannot exist any alternative theory that increases the predictive probability of quantum theory by more than 0.165, with the only assumption being that measurement (conscious observation) parameters can be chosen independently (free will assumption) of the other parameters of the theory.,,, ,, the experimental results provide the tightest constraints yet on alternatives to quantum theory.,,, http://phys.org/news/2012-07-quantum-theory.html
Now this is completely unheard of in science as far as I know. i.e. That a mathematical description of reality would advance to the point that one can actually perform a experiment showing that your current mathematical theory will not be exceeded in predictive power by another future mathematical theory is simply unprecedented in the history of science! It is, in my unsolicited opinion, a very significant milestone in the history of science! Moreover, the belief that 'maths just is' is simply completely demolished by the fact that our best mathematical description of reality is absolutely dependent on the starting assumptions of conscious observation and free will. Moreover, since our best mathematical description of reality requires conscious observation and free will as starting assumptions, then this necessarily implies that consciousness and free will precede the mathematical equation. Of note: since our free will choices figure so prominently in how reality is actually found to be constructed in our understanding of quantum mechanics, I think a Christian perspective on just how important our choices are in this temporal life, in regards to our eternal destiny, is very fitting:
Is God Good? (Free will and the problem of evil) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfd_1UAjeIA “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell." - C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce Ravi Zacharias - How To Measure Your Choices - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Op_S5syhKI You must measure your choices by the measure of 1) eternity 2) morality 3) accountability 4) charity
A few more notes of the ‘spirituality of math’: https://uncommondesc.wpengine.com/philosophy/is-atheism-rationally-justifiable/#comment-443433 bornagain77
Here is a tidied response to G2's 'maths just is' claim: The 'Spirituality of Mathematics' An atheist (G2) claimed, in response to my observation that mathematics must ultimately be based in God, that:
‘maths just is’
Well, contrary to the G2's commonly held belief that 'maths just is', the belief that 'maths just is' is now demonstrably false. First to be noted, there is a profound epistemological mystery as to why our minds should even be able to grasp and understand reality through the enterprise of mathematics in the first place:
Epistemology – Why Should The Human Mind Even Be Able To Comprehend Reality? – Stephen Meyer - video – (Notes in description) http://vimeo.com/32145998 "You find it strange that I consider the comprehensibility of the world (to the extent that we are authorized to speak of such a comprehensibility) as a miracle or as an eternal mystery. Well, a priori, one should expect a chaotic world, which cannot be grasped by the mind in any way.. the kind of order created by Newton's theory of gravitation, for example, is wholly different. Even if a man proposes the axioms of the theory, the success of such a project presupposes a high degree of ordering of the objective world, and this could not be expected a priori. That is the 'miracle' which is constantly reinforced as our knowledge expands." Albert Einstein - Goldman - Letters to Solovine p 131. The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences - Eugene Wigner - 1960 Excerpt: ,,certainly it is hard to believe that our reasoning power was brought, by Darwin's process of natural selection, to the perfection which it seems to possess.,,, It is difficult to avoid the impression that a miracle confronts us here, quite comparable in its striking nature to the miracle that the human mind can string a thousand arguments together without getting itself into contradictions, or to the two miracles of the existence of laws of nature and of the human mind's capacity to divine them.,,, The miracle of the appropriateness of the language of mathematics for the formulation of the laws of physics is a wonderful gift which we neither understand nor deserve. We should be grateful for it and hope that it will remain valid in future research and that it will extend, for better or for worse, to our pleasure, even though perhaps also to our bafflement, to wide branches of learning. http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDrama/reading/Wigner.html
Second in response to G2, in the last century Kurt Godel, in a breakthrough that is breathtaking, showed mathematics to be 'incomplete':
Kurt Gödel – Incompleteness Theorem – video http://www.metacafe.com/w/8462821 THE GOD OF THE MATHEMATICIANS - DAVID P. GOLDMAN - August 2010 Excerpt: we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel's critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes. http://www.firstthings.com/article/2010/07/the-god-of-the-mathematicians Taking God Out of the Equation – Biblical Worldview – by Ron Tagliapietra – January 1, 2012 Excerpt: Kurt Gödel (1906–1978) proved that no logical systems (if they include the counting numbers) can have all three of the following properties. 1. Validity . . . all conclusions are reached by valid reasoning. 2. Consistency . . . no conclusions contradict any other conclusions. 3. Completeness . . . all statements made in the system are either true or false. The details filled a book, but the basic concept was simple and elegant. He summed it up this way: “Anything you can draw a circle around cannot explain itself without referring to something outside the circle—something you have to assume but cannot prove.” For this reason, his proof is also called the Incompleteness Theorem. Kurt Gödel had dropped a bomb on the foundations of mathematics. Math could not play the role of God as infinite and autonomous. It was shocking, though, that logic could prove that mathematics could not be its own ultimate foundation. Christians should not have been surprised. The first two conditions are true about math: it is valid and consistent. But only God fulfills the third condition. Only He is complete and therefore self-dependent (autonomous). God alone is “all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:28), “the beginning and the end” (Revelation 22:13). God is the ultimate authority (Hebrews 6:13), and in Christ are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge (Colossians 2:3). http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v7/n1/equation#
In other words, the truthfulness of any given mathematical equation is not found within the equation itself, but the truthfulness of any given mathematical equation, and indeed of all of math, must be derived from and source outside of the equation(s). Moreover, being that mathematical equations are completely transcendent of any space-time constraints, (i.e. mathematical equations are always true no matter what part of the universe you are in and are true regardless of whatever year it happens to be), then this outside source (cause) that guarantees the truthfulness of any mathematical equation must also be transcendent of any space-time constraints. Also of note, Godel's incompleteness theorem is hardly the only line of argumentation in this line of thought:
Not Understanding Nothing – A review of A Universe from Nothing – Edward Feser - June 2012 Excerpt: A critic might reasonably question the arguments for a divine first cause of the cosmos. But to ask “What caused God?” misses the whole reason classical philosophers thought his existence necessary in the first place. So when physicist Lawrence Krauss begins his new book by suggesting that to ask “Who created the creator?” suffices to dispatch traditional philosophical theology, we know it isn’t going to end well. ,,, ,,, But Krauss simply can’t see the “difference between arguing in favor of an eternally existing creator versus an eternally existing universe without one.” The difference, as the reader of Aristotle or Aquinas knows, is that the universe changes while the unmoved mover does not, or, as the Neoplatonist can tell you, that the universe is made up of parts while its source is absolutely one; or, as Leibniz could tell you, that the universe is contingent and God absolutely necessary. There is thus a principled reason for regarding God rather than the universe as the terminus of explanation. http://www.firstthings.com/article/2012/05/not-understanding-nothing
But of more interest as to drawing out the 'spirituality of mathematics', and refuting the 'maths just is' conception of mathematics, it is worthwhile to focus in on the Schroedinger equation:
Finely Tuned Big Bang, Elvis In The Multiverse, and the Schroedinger Equation – Granville Sewell – audio http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4233012
At the 4:00 minute mark of the preceding audio, Dr. Sewell comments on the ‘transcendent’ and ‘constant’ Schroedinger’s Equation;
‘In chapter 2, I talk at some length on the Schroedinger Equation which is called the fundamental equation of chemistry. It’s the equation that governs the behavior of the basic atomic particles subject to the basic forces of physics. This equation is a partial differential equation with a complex valued solution. By complex valued I don’t mean complicated, I mean involving solutions that are complex numbers, a+bi, which is extraordinary that the governing equation, basic equation, of physics, of chemistry, is a partial differential equation with complex valued solutions. There is absolutely no reason why the basic particles should obey such a equation that I can think of except that it results in elements and chemical compounds with extremely rich and useful chemical properties. In fact I don’t think anyone familiar with quantum mechanics would believe that we’re ever going to find a reason why it should obey such an equation, they just do! So we have this basic, really elegant mathematical equation, partial differential equation, which is my field of expertise, that governs the most basic particles of nature and there is absolutely no reason why, anyone knows of, why it does, it just does. British physicist Sir James Jeans said “From the intrinsic evidence of His creation, the great architect of the universe begins to appear as a pure mathematician”, so God is a mathematician to’.
i.e. the Materialist is at a complete loss to explain why this should be so, whereas the Christian Theist presupposes such ‘transcendent’ control of our temporal, material, reality,,,
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Of note: 'The Word' in Greek is Logos. Logos is the root word from which we derive our modern word 'logic'. bornagain77
William J. Murray claims there is no rational basis for atheism of either the strong or weak varieties. The IEP articles answers Gann and shows that WJM is incorrect.
Inaccurate - I never said there was no rational basis for atheism; however, "basis" isn't all that is required for a rationally sound belief system. I have a rational basis for believing that the sun revolves around the Earth (confirmed, empirical observation), but there is more required than just a rational "basis" for that belief. What I argued is that atheism is a rationally untenable position - it is not ultimately justifiable. Also, you might want to look over how many of those arguments actually apply to the god as defined in the O.P.; for instance, the argument that god is bad or inefficient designer, or allows evil to exist, has no significant bearing on god as defined. I don't posit that god is all-loving, maximally efficient, always produces optimal design, or is even kind, because those qualities are not (1) generally convergent vectors in testimonial/anecdotal descriptions of god, and (2) are not, IMO, required by the arguments that conclude a necessary god-like being, and (3) are simply too vague and problematic to make a sensible case for one way or another. IOW, arguments that god is not loving, not kind, a bad designer and inefficient are not germane to the argument I initiated, leaving atheists with very little in the way of positive argument or evidence. Also, we have the problem of simply dismissing thousands of years of testimony by billions of people whose testimony about other things would largely not be dismissed; atheism has no counterbalance to the immense weight of testimony on the subject. William J Murray
For me, the argument for why the brain cannot think, as presented by Reppert (see Kairosfocus post 143), is completely convincing. In post 151 I already stated my conviction. It boils down to this: matter is subject to natural law, while thinking – or mind - is subject to laws of an entirely different (mental) level (logic, knowledge, overview, coherence, purpose and so on). There is a cascade of impenetrable walls between these two totally different levels. One of them being the fact that we cannot reduce the laws of the mental level to natural law. Can someone explain to me why this is not totally convincing? Why is it not obvious that the brain cannot think? Why is physical causal closure, and so physicalism, materialism, emergentism etc. still considered to be option? Box
KF at 122, I introduced IEP to demonstrate that there is a positive case for atheism that can be made and has been made. Steve Gann has been asking for such a case. William J. Murray claims there is no rational basis for atheism of either the strong or weak varieties. The IEP articles answers Gann and shows that WJM is incorrect. Certainly, Plantinga and others have their objections and defenses to some of these arguments, but having read Plantinga and responses to his work, his philosophy in not unassailable. That's what happens in scholarship. Who would be so bold to claim that these matters are settled permanently? JDH seems to have dropped out after my response to him at 138, which I take as a sign he agrees and has been corrected. But, again, if the question is whether atheism is rationally justified (or justifiable) the answer must be "yes." What's more, the rational basis for atheism is not inferior to the rational basis for deism/theism; in fact, many philosophers, scientists, and millions of other people have good reasons to think the case for atheism is better than the cases for deism/theism. Instead of focusing on the case for atheism, I am still foolishly interested in the positive case for intelligent design of biological life and/or the physical universe. I understand, poorly, the FSCI argument. I also realize that other arguments, such as "fine-tuning," are marshaled as indirect supports for ID. Does anyone else think to gain further acceptance and interest that ID requires additional, direct material studies and arguments? For instance, it does not seem to me that the "signature in the cell" argument has gained enough traction yet; what new data or examinations would bolster it? As for John, I know it primarily from the Douay-Rheims version of the vulgate, and also the KJV. To my ear, to my background, and to my understanding of its reception and use in history, its text relates a zealotry and ideology that many would consider intolerable if it were thought to be the scripture of another religion. The starkness of its vision is something only religion can achieve, I think. LarTanner
BA77: My students? As in: "more work, sir . . ."? They didn't dare not be inquisitive and diligent! (Bawl they did on workload, until they realised what I was doing for them! Years later, they were still complex frequency domain pole-spotting as they looked around.) KF kairosfocus
Graham2 I'm hoping you'll answer on why you believe that non-intelligence created intelligence.... please can you tell me how a rational mind could believe that effects can be greater than its causes? Andre
Graham2 I'm hoping you'll answer on why you believe that non-intelligence created intelligence.... please can you tell me how a rational mind could believe that effects can be greater than its causes? Andre
F/N: C15 BC, Moshe (compiler), Gen 1:1 - 3:
1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. 3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
C1, John 1:1 - 5:
1 In the beginning was the Word [THE LOGOS -- Reason and Communicative Expression Himself], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life,1 and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. [ESV]
C17 - 8, Boyle et al: science is "thinking God's thoughts after him." C18, Euler: 0 = 1 + e^i*pi C20, Einstein: E = m*c^2 (Inter alia implying that "Fiat lux," serves as basis for a material world. Add in general Relativity and the cosmology of an observed cosmos with a credible beginning, one that is fine-tuned for the existence of C-chemistry, cell based life. Don't forget that little resonance effect that leads to the peculiar abundance of C and O, which with H get us to organic chemistry and water, bring to bear N and we are at proteins. He is the gateway to the rest of chemistry, including of course C. H, He, C, O are the first four elements in abundance, and N is not far away. Another of Sir Fred Hoyle's "put up job[s]"? ) C21, Sewell on Schroedinger:
I talk at some length on the Schroedinger Equation which is called the fundamental equation of chemistry. It’s the equation that governs the behavior of the basic atomic particles subject to the basic forces of physics. This equation is a partial differential equation with a complex valued solution. By complex valued I don’t mean complicated, I mean involving solutions that are complex numbers, a+bi, which is extraordinary that the governing equation, basic equation, of physics, of chemistry, is a partial differential equation with complex valued solutions. There is absolutely no reason why the basic particles should obey such a equation that I can think of except that it results in elements and chemical compounds with extremely rich and useful chemical properties. In fact I don’t think anyone familiar with quantum mechanics would believe that we’re ever going to find a reason why it should obey such an equation, they just do! So we have this basic, really elegant mathematical equation, partial differential equation, which is my field of expertise, that governs the most basic particles of nature and there is absolutely no reason why, anyone knows of, why it does, it just does. British physicist Sir James Jeans said “From the intrinsic evidence of His creation, the great architect of the universe begins to appear as a pure mathematician”, so God is a mathematician . . .
Open your eyes, mon, and LOOK! KF kairosfocus
'maths just is',,, KF: Does make one shake their head!,,,What if one of your students told you 'maths just is'? I'm sure you've seen as such in your years of teaching,,, did such students who held such a non-inquisitive attitude fair well in the course of their studies? bornagain77
G2: An apt illustration of willfully closing one's eyes. Yes, math is hard and we finite fallible thinkers struggle with it, that is why it can take centuries to advance in key areas. But, advance it does, and when we look at what we have achieved, we see that it points like a compass needle to a unity of the cosmos that in turn is eloquent testimony to a unified, rational source. And of this the Euler expression is as emblematic as we get: 0 = 1 + e^i*pi. All you can say in reply to such an astonishing result is "maths just is," and to try to dismiss the evident mind behind it as a "ghost" -- a term of contempt used to dismiss superstition. In the face of such a result and its implications, that is an epitaph of a contempt-driven, willfully purblind system of thought. Open your eyes, and LOOK! KF kairosfocus
a few more notes of the 'spirituality of math':
Centrality of Earth Within The 4-Dimensional Space-Time of General Relativity - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/8421879 Dr. Quantum - Double Slit Experiment & Entanglement - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4096579
It is interesting to note that 'higher dimensional' mathematics had to be developed before Einstein could elucidate General Relativity, or even before Quantum Mechanics could be elucidated;
The Mathematics Of Higher Dimensionality – Gauss and Riemann – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6199520/ The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences - Eugene Wigner - 1960 Excerpt: We now have, in physics, two theories of great power and interest: the theory of quantum phenomena and the theory of relativity.,,, The two theories operate with different mathematical concepts: the four dimensional Riemann space and the infinite dimensional Hilbert space, http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDrama/reading/Wigner.html
When one looks at the 4-D space time of relativity, and the centrality of conscious observation in quantum mechanics, a very interesting 'anomaly' pops out:
The Galileo Affair and the true "Center of the Universe" Excerpt: I find it extremely interesting, and strange, that quantum mechanics tells us that instantaneous quantum wave collapse to its 'uncertain' 3-D state is centered on each individual observer in the universe, whereas, 4-D space-time cosmology (General Relativity) tells us each 3-D point in the universe is central to the expansion of the universe. These findings of modern science are pretty much exactly what we would expect to see if this universe were indeed created, and sustained, from a higher dimension by a omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal Being who knows everything that is happening everywhere in the universe at the same time. These findings certainly seem to go to the very heart of the age old question asked of many parents by their children, “How can God hear everybody’s prayers at the same time?”,,, i.e. Why should the expansion of the universe, or the quantum wave collapse of the entire universe, even care that you or I, or anyone else, should exist? Only Theism offers a rational explanation as to why you or I, or anyone else, should have such undeserved significance in such a vast universe: Psalm 33:13-15 The LORD looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men. From the place of His dwelling He looks on all the inhabitants of the earth; He fashions their hearts individually; He considers all their works. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BHAcvrc913SgnPcDohwkPnN4kMJ9EDX-JJSkjc4AXmA/edit
The following is another very 'spiritual' finding from mathematics:
The Scale of The Universe - Part 2 - interactive graph (recently updated in 2012 with cool features) http://htwins.net/scale2/scale2.swf?bordercolor=white
The preceding interactive graph points out that the smallest scale visible to the human eye (as well as a human egg) is at 10^-4 meters, which 'just so happens' to be directly in the exponential center of all possible sizes of our physical reality (not just ‘nearly’ in the exponential center!). i.e. 10^-4 is, exponentially, right in the middle of 10^-35 meters, which is the smallest possible unit of length, which is Planck length, and 10^27 meters, which is the largest possible unit of 'observable' length since space-time was created in the Big Bang, which is the diameter of the universe. This is very interesting for, as far as I can tell, the limits to human vision (as well as the size of the human egg) could have, theoretically, been at very different positions than directly in the exponential middle; Here is another finding from mathematics that has very strong 'spiritual' implications: There is a mysterious 'higher dimensional' component to life:
The predominance of quarter-power (4-D) scaling in biology Excerpt: Many fundamental characteristics of organisms scale with body size as power laws of the form: Y = Yo M^b, where Y is some characteristic such as metabolic rate, stride length or life span, Yo is a normalization constant, M is body mass and b is the allometric scaling exponent. A longstanding puzzle in biology is why the exponent b is usually some simple multiple of 1/4 (4-Dimensional scaling) rather than a multiple of 1/3, as would be expected from Euclidean (3-Dimensional) scaling. http://www.nceas.ucsb.edu/~drewa/pubs/savage_v_2004_f18_257.pdf “Although living things occupy a three-dimensional space, their internal physiology and anatomy operate as if they were four-dimensional. Quarter-power scaling laws are perhaps as universal and as uniquely biological as the biochemical pathways of metabolism, the structure and function of the genetic code and the process of natural selection.,,, The conclusion here is inescapable, that the driving force for these invariant scaling laws cannot have been natural selection." Jerry Fodor and Massimo Piatelli-Palmarini, What Darwin Got Wrong (London: Profile Books, 2010), p. 78-79 https://uncommondesc.wpengine.com/evolution/16037/
Though Jerry Fodor and Massimo Piatelli-Palmarini rightly find it inexplicable for 'random' Natural Selection to be the rational explanation for the invariant scaling of the physiology, and anatomy, of living things to four-dimensional parameters, they do not seem to fully realize the implications this 'four dimensional scaling' of living things presents. This 4-D scaling is something we should rightly expect from a Intelligent Design perspective. This is because Intelligent Design holds that ‘higher dimensional transcendent information’ is more foundational to life, and even to the universe itself, than either matter or energy are. This higher dimensional 'expectation' for life, from a Intelligent Design perspective, is directly opposed to the expectation of the Darwinian framework, which holds that information, and indeed even the essence of life itself, is merely an 'emergent' property of the 3-D material realm.
Earth’s crammed with heaven, And every common bush afire with God; But only he who sees, takes off his shoes, The rest sit round it and pluck blackberries. - Elizabeth Barrett Browning
Music and verse:
YOU ARE GOD ALONE, Philips, Craig and Dean http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OICArFHAa9c Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
bornagain77
G2 claims "I dont see the work of the supernatural here, maths just is." Really, that is a pretty specific claim, care to overturn the incompleteness theorem? Or perhaps explain this? Finely Tuned Big Bang, Elvis In The Multiverse, and the Schroedinger Equation - Granville Sewell - audio http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4233012 At the 4:00 minute mark of the preceding audio, Dr. Sewell comments on the ‘transcendent’ and ‘constant’ Schroedinger’s Equation; ‘In chapter 2, I talk at some length on the Schroedinger Equation which is called the fundamental equation of chemistry. It’s the equation that governs the behavior of the basic atomic particles subject to the basic forces of physics. This equation is a partial differential equation with a complex valued solution. By complex valued I don’t mean complicated, I mean involving solutions that are complex numbers, a+bi, which is extraordinary that the governing equation, basic equation, of physics, of chemistry, is a partial differential equation with complex valued solutions. There is absolutely no reason why the basic particles should obey such a equation that I can think of except that it results in elements and chemical compounds with extremely rich and useful chemical properties. In fact I don’t think anyone familiar with quantum mechanics would believe that we’re ever going to find a reason why it should obey such an equation, they just do! So we have this basic, really elegant mathematical equation, partial differential equation, which is my field of expertise, that governs the most basic particles of nature and there is absolutely no reason why, anyone knows of, why it does, it just does. British physicist Sir James Jeans said “From the intrinsic evidence of His creation, the great architect of the universe begins to appear as a pure mathematician”, so God is a mathematician to’. i.e. the Materialist is at a complete loss to explain why this should be so, whereas the Christian Theist presupposes such ‘transcendent’ control of our temporal, material, reality,,, John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. bornagain77
Thanks KF, G2 you state: "When bornagain77 claimed math equations came from God, I took this as an aberration, but apparantly not." a few footnotes to KF's excellent remarks: Mathematics is the language with which God has written the universe. Galileo Galilei "You find it strange that I consider the comprehensibility of the world (to the extent that we are authorized to speak of such a comprehensibility) as a miracle or as an eternal mystery. Well, a priori, one should expect a chaotic world, which cannot be grasped by the mind in any way.. the kind of order created by Newton's theory of gravitation, for example, is wholly different. Even if a man proposes the axioms of the theory, the success of such a project presupposes a high degree of ordering of the objective world, and this could not be expected a priori. That is the 'miracle' which is constantly reinforced as our knowledge expands." Albert Einstein - Goldman - Letters to Solovine p 131. The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences - Eugene Wigner - 1960 Excerpt: ,,certainly it is hard to believe that our reasoning power was brought, by Darwin's process of natural selection, to the perfection which it seems to possess.,,, It is difficult to avoid the impression that a miracle confronts us here, quite comparable in its striking nature to the miracle that the human mind can string a thousand arguments together without getting itself into contradictions, or to the two miracles of the existence of laws of nature and of the human mind's capacity to divine them.,,, The miracle of the appropriateness of the language of mathematics for the formulation of the laws of physics is a wonderful gift which we neither understand nor deserve. We should be grateful for it and hope that it will remain valid in future research and that it will extend, for better or for worse, to our pleasure, even though perhaps also to our bafflement, to wide branches of learning. http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDrama/reading/Wigner.html Mario Livio, or the Poverty of Atheist Philosophy: A Review of “Is God a Mathematician?” Excerpt: In short, Wigner committed a treason against science. He didn’t, in an Einsteinian fashion, just declare a personal faith in a God that had only marginal relevance to his scientific studies. He went farther than that: he implied that science was impossible and inexplicable without accepting a higher reality, transcending the mind of man and its capabilities for reasoning and experimentation. The short and ostensibly innocent article faced some really violent reactions; some objected to the conclusions in it, others to the premises, and still others refused to even deal with it, pretending it had never been written. But Wigner remained right about one thing: Despite the many attempts, no one could give a rational explanation for what Wigner described as the “uncanny ability of mathematics to describe and predict accurately the physical world.” http://americanvision.org/4333/mario-livio-or-the-poverty-of-atheist-philosophy-a-review-of-is-god-a-mathematician/ Kurt Gödel - Incompleteness Theorem - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/8462821 Taking God Out of the Equation - Biblical Worldview - by Ron Tagliapietra - January 1, 2012 Excerpt: Kurt Gödel (1906–1978) proved that no logical systems (if they include the counting numbers) can have all three of the following properties. 1. Validity . . . all conclusions are reached by valid reasoning. 2. Consistency . . . no conclusions contradict any other conclusions. 3. Completeness . . . all statements made in the system are either true or false. The details filled a book, but the basic concept was simple and elegant. He summed it up this way: “Anything you can draw a circle around cannot explain itself without referring to something outside the circle—something you have to assume but cannot prove.” For this reason, his proof is also called the Incompleteness Theorem. Kurt Gödel had dropped a bomb on the foundations of mathematics. Math could not play the role of God as infinite and autonomous. It was shocking, though, that logic could prove that mathematics could not be its own ultimate foundation. Christians should not have been surprised. The first two conditions are true about math: it is valid and consistent. But only God fulfills the third condition. Only He is complete and therefore self-dependent (autonomous). God alone is “all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:28), “the beginning and the end” (Revelation 22:13). God is the ultimate authority (Hebrews 6:13), and in Christ are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge (Colossians 2:3). http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v7/n1/equation# The God of the Mathematicians - Goldman Excerpt: As Gödel told Hao Wang, “Einstein’s religion [was] more abstract, like Spinoza and Indian philosophy. Spinoza’s god is less than a person; mine is more than a person; because God can play the role of a person.” - Kurt Gödel - (Gödel is considered one of the greatest logicians who ever existed) http://www.firstthings.com/article/2010/07/the-god-of-the-mathematicians This following site is a easy to use, and understand, interactive website that takes the user through what is termed 'Presuppositional apologetics'. The website clearly shows that our use of the laws of logic, mathematics, science and morality cannot be accounted for unless we believe in God who guarantees our perceptions and reasoning are trustworthy in the first place. Presuppositional Apologetics - easy to use interactive website http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/index.php The Great Debate: Does God Exist? - Justin Holcomb - audio of the 1985 debate available on the site Excerpt: The transcendental proof for God’s existence is that without Him it is impossible to prove anything. The atheist worldview is irrational and cannot consistently provide the preconditions of intelligible experience, science, logic, or morality. The atheist worldview cannot allow for laws of logic, the uniformity of nature, the ability for the mind to understand the world, and moral absolutes. In that sense the atheist worldview cannot account for our debate tonight.,,, http://theresurgence.com/2012/01/17/the-great-debate-does-god-exist Random Chaos vs. Uniformity Of Nature - Presuppositional Apologetics - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/6853139 Alan Turing and Kurt Godel - Incompleteness Theorem and Human Intuition - video (notes in video description) http://www.metacafe.com/watch/8516356/ Sir Isaac Newton stated this in regards to his own discoveries: I have a fundamental belief in the Bible as the Word of God, written by men who were inspired. I study the Bible daily…. All my discoveries have been made in an answer to prayer. — Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727), considered by many to be the greatest scientist of all time etc.. etc.. bornagain77
One wonders, if all we are is brains that evolved pattern recognition and survival skills that may or may not reflect anything true about the world, but only necessarily reflect an advantage in long-term reproductive success, why do materialist atheists (or kantian naturalists) bother arguing against any other philosophy or set of beliefs on any other grounds whatsoever? If there is no objective standard of truth, or morality, then what we are left with is whatever our brains happen to have found useful for our evolutionary success. It is obvious that belief in god and spiritual beliefs in general are great evolutionary successes, so what is the basis for argument against them? Why the outrage against religious persecution or laws based on morality? Why ridicule ID and theism in general? Why make arguments here when the only naturalist or materialist question worth asking is: "How many descendants are you responsible for?" I have 6 children and 12 grand-children; by any naturalist or materialist standard (that means anything in terms of their philosophy), my belief system is valid on that account. Yet, here they cling, scratching and clawing and demeaning and philosophizing, ranting and ridiculing and debating as if whatever they are arguing for matters in some way other than the only meaningful measurement available in their philosophy: what is your progeny success rate? William J Murray
KF: I work in the field of structural analysis, writing software to solve large systems of (sometimes) non-linear equations, so I am familiar with some of this stuff. Yes, maths is pretty cool stuff, I revel in it, often just for the enjoyment, but at the same time I am often struck by just how ineffective it is: Its only just recently that the 4-colour problem was solved. You cant generate closed functions to integrate the simplest problems, eg: the length of an ellipse. I dont see the work of the supernatural here, maths just is. It doesnt make it any less cool, it just removes any ghosts. Graham2
G2: You keep coming across as one who thinks that his particular perspective is and is self evidently true, and so if someone else has a different view it is wrong or even absurd. That attitude is sophomoric at best. Your implicit dismissal of the significance of mathematics in a theistic view, just above, seems to be a case in point; one among several. Some days ago, I took up the issue of mathematics' unity and relevance as signs of an underlying Reason behind reality. I think it can be taken for granted that mathematics is a big deal in Science and other serious endeavours, and that there have been those who remark on the "unreasonable effectiveness of Mathematics," in Science and other fields. Could that be trying to tell us something, something about the underlying integrated and intelligible Reason behind our cosmos -- as in not a chaos? Th3e essence of mathematics is that on a few core assumptions, called axioms, it deduces consequences by logic. A capital instance was in Einstein's exploration of early relativity, in which he came across a result for the energy of a moving body, that had a zero velocity term, which -- at least, as it came across to us in Physics classes and texts -- was unexpected. The solution was to infer that there is a rest-energy related to mass, E = m*c^2. A decade or so later, he ran across the tendency of the General Relativity equations to project an expanding or collapsing universe, and felt this a defect, inserting a control term that could set it to non-expansion. Lo and behold, ten years still later, the Hubble results came out and bang, we have cosmological expansion. The control term is till there, but now as the "yeast bubbler" feature that governs the expansion. There are many other cases. For some reason, reality seems mathematically connected, thus logically and rationally connected. Have you ever observed that reason tends to reside in minds? Does that not raise the hairs on the back of your neck when you look at the way such is spread all across reality as we understand it? In that context, look at how the rise of geometry led to the significance of pi. The operation of taking a square root -- what is the side of a square of a given area, then led to the notion of an imaginary root of a negative number. The area under 1/x behaves logarithmically, and so we have a natural log linked to the area under that curve beyond unity. (Where of course Cartesian coordinates are ever so interesting.) Mix in a bit of calculus, sequences, series and the idea of sines and cosines to get triangles, then do series expansions that ecxpress sine, cosine and exponential functions. We are at e^i*theta = cos theta plus i sine theta. Make the angle rotate, theta = i*omega*t. We have a route into Fourier frequency domain analysis [frequency components of time domain events . . . ], Laplace transient analysis, the dynamic behaviour of systems, and so much more. Indeed, this gateway leads to a situation where for years I lived more in this domain than time domain, at least analytically. And I used to love to use the heavy rubber sheet picture to teach my students how to see the behaviour of systems, then set them to pole spotting. That leads into instrumentation and control. Mix in Z transforms and memory/delay elements in registers with arithmetic/logic units to manipulate, and the whole field of digital signal processing lies open before you. Come back tot the little expression on the sinusoidal and the complex exponential forms of the complex number on the unit circle in the Argand plane. (Which is BTW, a way to deal with 2-d vector analysis. I*x is a way of saying rotate the position vector 0-x by 90 degrees anticlockwise i that plane. Do it again and you get - 0-x. The meaning of sq rt (-1) drops out.) Work out for pi rads, the radian being the natural measure of angle. Bang, we see an astonishing result: 0 = 1 + e^i*pi Math comes all back together from ever so many diverse fields and unifies the five most important numbers and three most important operations in one equation. And we see that what was apparently cobbled together bit by bit to go here and there is all of a piece. if that does not point to our being explorers and re-discoverers of something that somebody else -- someone who is Reason himself -- thought of before the world began, I don't know what is. The best explanation I know is that, built into the logical structure of reality is an astonishing unity that points to a unifying highly mathematical mind behind reality. You may discard or deride this, but that does not make it any less so. Even if you choose to reject such thinking, at least have the respect to recognise that others are going to see this as the best explanation for it, and that they are not just making up silly notions out of whole cloth. Complex, powerful coherence like that that is so strongly anchored to the reality of the world as we have explored it, is pointing somewhere, somewhere that looks a lot like the same where that we see when we find the astonishing fine tuning of the cosmos that supports the sort of life that we enjoy. And again the same where that we see when we notice that -- of all things -- he same locations that are best fitted to such life as we are are locations that practically beg us to explore and discover the world through math and sci. And then look at how we came up with digital computers from the 1830's to 1940's, then, bang in the 1950's - 60's we find the same sort of digital info processing in the heart of the living cell. More and more put up jobs all pointing in the same direction, as Sir Fred Hoyle would say. I hope that your encounter with UD will at least help broaden your thinking. KF kairosfocus
Timeaus: It has been an interesting trip for me. I actually admire your patience. What I didnt appreciate was the role the supernatural played in the lives of people here, they are swimming in it. When bornagain77 claimed math equations came from God, I took this as an aberration, but apparantly not. This now forms a sort of benchmark for me. If you take ID seriously, good luck, I think you may need it. Graham2
F/N 2: Here is a simplified version of an ontological argument in the BCNT. Also, forgive, as it seems my built-in noun-verb agreement module is buggy these days. kairosfocus
F/N: Blackwell Companion to nat theol, at Amazon, paper -- hard cover is over US$ 200 [I guess, mostly for libraries . . . I could buy the soft cover and get it hard bound for a lot less [or could even pull my volume on the topic of book binding and try my hand . . . ]), as is now distressingly typical for too many text and reference works. BTW, I see Kindle prices are creeping up too, to match the paperback prices of books. Looks like the contention is that it is the cost of services to create the work, not paper and warehousing, that are driving costs. I guess in a world of highways and steel-frame construction computer managed warehouses that can ship from anywhere, that is the trend. Somehow, I cannot slip the feeling that print is doomed and the future belongs to the EPUB survey read on a sub- US$100 tablet, maybe 7 - 8" diagonal. In short, long term, bet on server farms. Unless some idiot launches an EMP attack . . . kairosfocus
G2: Perhaps, a step back from the cut and thrust of point exchanges will be helpful. By now, it should be obvious to you that you are in a forum where several participants are present or former college professors, lecturers or holders of advanced degrees who are making a living doing something else (usually, software engineering or consultancy or the like). There are a few medical practitioners, some engineers and applied scientists, etc. I think there are some lawyers hanging around. Some, are the sort of amateur who used to carry philosophy and science until the modern university emerged and you could make a decent living from scholarship. I should not neglect, the sort of people who have bookshelves measured by the hundreds of shelf feet, and perhaps rent warehousing space for more -- and not on trashy topics either. In this particular thread you have a concentration of people with a particular interest in philosophy and in the history and pivotal ideas of science and natural theology. These are not dumb people, nor are they ignorant in general or on this topic. We are not insane. Nor are we unduly wicked -- any orthodox Christian (and most other reasonable people) will agree that we are finite, fallible, morally struggling and too often ill-willed. All of which influences unfortunately potentially have epistemological consequences. Which we are aware of and strive to address seriously. In addition, if you will review the thread above, you will see that most references to the Bible come from objectors, or in response to objectors. A passing acquaintance with the general tone of say AIG, ICR, CMI or even RTB, will show that the patterns of thought are quite different. (On a passing note, LT, John is not antisemitic [take a read here noting the obvious about the name of the author . . . ], but has indisputably unfortunately been abused by those who are; which fits in under some pretty grim warnings on scripture twisting by the ignorant, foolish, ill-advised and unstable. It is following in the Hebraic prophetic tradition of afflicting the comfortable, especially manifestly corrupt power elites. Think about a power culture where a ruler gaols a man for rebuking his seducing and taking his brother's wife and provoking a foolish [and losing] war with his former wife's father then --on being inflamed by a provocative dance by the 14 year old daughter of his stolen wife, promises half the kingdom. Head on a platter, duly delivered with not a voice of recorded protest from the assembled elites. Multiply, by a governor who finds a man innocent, then sends him to his death for reasons of fear of the power balances. Where, a generation later, when another man is brought before a successor on a similar accusation of stirring up trouble by denouncing the elites and their institutions, there is an obvious Instruction lurking so the man is "only" whipped. Multiply by the obvious tensions between the Judaeans and the Galileans. Then, pause. Look in a fair-minded fashion at the denunciations of Gentile power elites and culture in the NT, especially the cumulative case in Rom 1 - 3 (including the implicit denunciation of the current emperor, before whom Paul would later be tried, it seems twice). You will have a choice: NT Christianity is guilty of misanthropy, or it is deeply concerned to call all of humanity to repentance and reform. A fair and charitable reading will at once show that the latter reading holds a much better warrant. [And, I think to be fair minded, you need to read here, which is written on behalf of Christians and Jews in my region, in response to regional attacks on Israel/Zionism and Jews, by cultural Marxists full of the anticolonialist narrative who have formed an unholy alliance with the Jihadis. A part of the motive for that stance, which will cost me in dealings with elites influenced by that pattern of thought, is precisely the spiritual and general respect for Israel taught in the same NT that is so often despised as the root of antisemitism.]) It should be quite clear to you that modern science was born in the matrix of the Judaeo-Christian worldview, and that that worldview specifically -- and by contrast with the direction of influences driven by other worldviews -- contributed pivotal ideas, respect for reason and the potential accuracy and generality of observations and inductive generalisations, etc. Indeed, the peculiar term, LAW of Nature, should be a beacon pointing to that influence. As was already highlighted from Newton in his General Scholium to Principia. That was written in Latin to the elites. Let me now cite what he wrote at the turn of the 1700's in English, in Opticks, Query 31:
Now by the help of [[the laws of motion], all material Things seem to have been composed of the hard and solid Particles above-mention'd, variously associated in the first Creation by the Counsel of an intelligent Agent. For it became him who created them to set them in order. And if he did so, it's unphilosophical to seek for any other Origin of the World, or to pretend that it might arise out of a Chaos by the mere Laws of Nature; though being once form'd, it may continue by those Laws for many Ages . . . . And if natural Philosophy in all its Parts, by pursuing this Method, shall at length be perfected, the Bounds of Moral Philosophy will be also enlarged. For so far as we can know by natural Philosophy what is the first Cause, what Power he has over us, and what Benefits we receive from him, so far our Duty towards him, as well as that towards one another, will appear to us by the Light of Nature. ”
This, BTW, is the exact same context in which Newton laid out the summary of the methods of scientific investigation that is echoed in traditional school definitions. The sort that have not been loaded up with gratuitous a priori materialism at the behest of today's new magisterium in the holy lab coat. (Cf. here on for just what I mean when I say this.) Let me clip that definition in its context, which should also serve to highlight the epistemological subtleties involved:
As in Mathematicks, so in Natural Philosophy, the Investigation of difficult Things by the Method of Analysis, ought ever to precede the Method of Composition. This Analysis consists in making Experiments and Observations, and in drawing general Conclusions from them by Induction, and admitting of no Objections against the Conclusions, but such as are taken from Experiments, or other certain Truths. For Hypotheses are not to be regarded in experimental Philosophy. And although the arguing from Experiments and Observations by Induction be no Demonstration of general Conclusions; yet it is the best way of arguing which the Nature of Things admits of, and may be looked upon as so much the stronger, by how much the Induction is more general. And if no Exception occur from Phaenomena, the Conclusion may be pronounced generally. But if at any time afterwards any Exception shall occur from Experiments, it may then begin to be pronounced with such Exceptions as occur. By this way of Analysis we may proceed from Compounds to Ingredients, and from Motions to the Forces producing them; and in general, from Effects to their Causes, and from particular Causes to more general ones, till the Argument end in the most general. This is the Method of Analysis: And the Synthesis consists in assuming the Causes discover'd, and establish'd as Principles, and by them explaining the Phaenomena proceeding from them, and proving the Explanations.
The inescapable provisionality of scientific reasoning on empirical evidence is clearly highlighted. We also see the hint that topics in science will be subject to debate and controversy on the strength of the conclusions drawn, in light of points where limitations or even possible corrections may be emerging. A fair reading of what design theory is about, will show that this is the context of the rise of this school of thought. (Have you read even the NWE 101 on ID yet? If so, how has it affected your views, why, especially the clip from Hoyle in which he introduces a certain term?) I hope this will be helpful to you. KF kairosfocus
Graham2 (195): I made no demands. I offered a trade. You have declined the trade. Therefore, you won't get my answer to your question. It's just a business decision; no hard feelings on my part. You write: "It [science] simply has not, in many years of investigation, provided evidence for the supernatural." This is a much weaker claim than you originally made. Your original claim was that belief in a disembodied intelligence is "preposterous" and has been rendered incredible by modern science. It was that claim that I contested, not the one above. If you are withdrawing your original claim, please summon the intellectual courage to say so directly. Just to be clear: I'm not offended that you are an atheist, reject ID, etc. No position offends me, even if I strongly disagree with it, if it's held in an intellectually responsible way. What offends me is lack of argumentative responsibility. For example, you speak publically about ID when you don't know what it's about, and apparently have no intention of doing any research to find out what it's about. You apparently intend to ignore all corrections regarding ID (as you've ignored mine) and continue to argue against a straw man. The only reasonable public responses to such an attitude are indignation and contempt. I think I've expressed my indignation already, so now I'll switch to contempt, and ignore your discussion of ID as uninformed and therefore irrelevant. Timaeus
Correction 2.) The 1 science question was to make it clear that there is more than one science doing the rounds…. there* is “just so” science (neo-Darwinian evolution), pseudo-science (evolutionary-psychology), and real science (Newtonian science) Andre
Graham 2 1.) Is it at all possible for you to give me any kind of answer on why you believe that non-intelligence (cause) gave rise to intelligence (effect)even if the science that you so steadfastly believe in clearly indicates that effects can never be greater than its cause. Please Graham2 I need to understand the thought process on why you choose to accept this position that it can despite all the evidence saying it can't. 2.) The 1 science question was to make it clear that there is more than one science doing the rounds.... they're is "just so" science (neo-Darwinian evolution), pseudo-science (evolutionary-psychology), and real science ( Newtonian science) Andre
This is your brain on nominalism. It's decidedly different from my brain on nominalism. Mung
But we’re constantly receiving corrections, both from the world and from other people. We are not only fallible but also “corrigible” (correctable). I don’t see what’s “self-defeating” about this. I mean, am I supposed to think that either there are rock-solid absolutes or else it’s all arbitrary and subjective? How does that dichotomy make any sense?
Let me strip out the misdirection of non-existent secondary entities (as per your philosophy): Flawed brain interprets data received by flawed brain from what flawed brain interprets as other flawed brains and uses flawed brain in an attempt to correct flawed brain. Well, it is - after all - the product of an admittedly flawed brain. William J Murray
Kantian Naturalist
Nominalism could be construed in two different ways: as denying that there are generals (but only particulars) or as denying that there are abstracta but only concreta. Or one might take the view that there are only concrete particulars, which is in fact my view.
Excuse me please, but this is the deadliest of all intellectual errors. Our knowledge is not limited to concrete particulars. On the contrary, it is only by means of abstract concepts that we can understand what is common to all particular humans, trees, spoons, and chairs.
Or more precisely, I think that generals and abstracta play a fundamentally important role in structuring our thought and discourse about the world, but that not all of our thought and discourse about the world really “makes contact” with the world of concrete particulars.
If, as you mistakenly believe, our knowledge is limited to concrete particulars, then our thought and discourse would consist solely of our own private experiences. Under those circumstances, there could be no such thing as reliable knowledge about the real world, a misguided claim that I refuted earlier on this thread.
The thought now is this: while the conceptual scheme of an animal mind can only picture, the conceptual scheme of normal mature human minds not only pictures but also contains numerous other dimensions as well.
Excuse me again, but you are contradicting your own philosophy. In your first paragraph, you argue that we can apprehend only concrete particulars, which would mean that we can know only “this” mind or “that” human. Now, in referring to “normal human minds,” you reverse course and acknowledge a knowable universal that transcends the world of particulars--an intellectual faculty common to all humans.
So, two kinds of external constraint: causal constraint on embodied perception, and rational constraint on embodied thought; the former constraint grounded in the physical environment, the latter constraint grounded in the social environment. This is a great view! What’s not to like about this?
It does not correspond to reality. StephenB
In re: William Murray @ 197
So, without the schizophrenic reference to non-existent commodities (a separate “I” and a separate means of evaluation), you are saying: “Flawed brain is going to use flawed brain to assess the quality of flawed brain’s output.” Good luck with that self-defeating position.
But we're constantly receiving corrections, both from the world and from other people. We are not only fallible but also "corrigible" (correctable). I don't see what's "self-defeating" about this. I mean, am I supposed to think that either there are rock-solid absolutes or else it's all arbitrary and subjective? How does that dichotomy make any sense? Kantian Naturalist
For a much simpler 'common sense' way to understand, I suggest this video: What Properties Must the Cause of the Universe Have? - William Lane Craig - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SZWInkDIVI bornagain77
The following solidified Wigner’s work from another angle;
“I’m going to talk about the Bell inequality, and more importantly a new inequality that you might not have heard of called the Leggett inequality, that was recently measured. It was actually formulated almost 30 years ago by Professor Leggett, who is a Nobel Prize winner, but it wasn’t tested until about a year and a half ago (in 2007), when an article appeared in Nature, that the measurement was made by this prominent quantum group in Vienna led by Anton Zeilinger, which they measured the Leggett inequality, which actually goes a step deeper than the Bell inequality and rules out any possible interpretation other than consciousness creates reality when the measurement is made.” – Bernard Haisch, Ph.D., Calphysics Institute, is an astrophysicist and author of over 130 scientific publications.Preceding quote taken from this following video; Quantum Mechanics and Consciousness - A New Measurement - Bernard Haisch, Ph.D (Shortened version of entire video with notes in description of video) http://vimeo.com/37517080 Quantum physics says goodbye to reality - Apr 20, 2007 Excerpt: Many realizations of the thought experiment have indeed verified the violation of Bell's inequality. These have ruled out all hidden-variables theories based on joint assumptions of realism, meaning that reality exists when we are not observing it; and locality, meaning that separated events cannot influence one another instantaneously. But a violation of Bell's inequality does not tell specifically which assumption – realism, locality or both – is discordant with quantum mechanics. Markus Aspelmeyer, Anton Zeilinger and colleagues from the University of Vienna, however, have now shown that realism is more of a problem than locality in the quantum world. They devised an experiment that violates a different inequality proposed by physicist Anthony Leggett in 2003 that relies only on realism, and relaxes the reliance on locality. To do this, rather than taking measurements along just one plane of polarization, the Austrian team took measurements in additional, perpendicular planes to check for elliptical polarization. They found that, just as in the realizations of Bell's thought experiment, Leggett's inequality is violated – thus stressing the quantum-mechanical assertion that reality does not exist when we're not observing it. "Our study shows that 'just' giving up the concept of locality would not be enough to obtain a more complete description of quantum mechanics," Aspelmeyer told Physics Web. "You would also have to give up certain intuitive features of realism." http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/27640 Nonlocal "realistic" Leggett models can be considered refuted by the before-before experiment - Antoine Suarez Center for Quantum Philosophy, - 2008 Excerpt: (page 3) The independence of quantum measurement from the presence of human consciousness has not been proved wrong by any experiment to date.,,, "nonlocal correlations happen from outside space-time, in the sense that there is no story in space-time that tells us how they happen." http://www.quantumphil.org/SuarezFOOP201R2.pdf
And to further solidify the case that 'consciousness precedes reality' the violation of Leggett's inequalities were extended in 2010:
Violation of Leggett inequalities in orbital angular momentum subspaces - 2010 Main results. We extend the violation of Leggett inequalities to the orbital angular momentum (OAM) state space of photons, which is associated with their helical wavefronts. We define our measurements in a Bloch sphere for OAM and measure the Leggett parameter LN (where N is the number of settings for the signal photon) as we change the angle ? (see figure). We observe excellent agreement with quantum mechanical predictions (red line), and show a violation of five and six standard deviations for N = 3 and N = 4, respectively. http://iopscience.iop.org/1367-2630/12/12/123007
Now, I find the preceding to be absolutely fascinating! A photon, in its quantum wave state, is found to be mathematically defined as a ‘infinite-dimensional’ state, which ‘requires an infinite amount of information’ to describe it properly, can be encoded with information in its 'infinite dimensional' state, and this ‘infinite dimensional’ photon is found to collapse, instantaneously, and thus ‘non-locally’, to just a ’1 or 0? state, out of a infinite number of possibilities that the photon could have collapsed to instead! Moreover, consciousness is found to precede the collapse of the wavefunction to its particle state. Now my question to materialistic atheists is this, "Exactly what ’conscious cause’ has been postulated throughout history to be completely independent of any space-time constraints, as well as possessing infinite knowledge, so as to be the ‘sufficient cause’ to explain what we see in the quantum wave collapse of a photon???
John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
,,,In my personal opinion, even though not hashed out in exhaustive detail yet, all this evidence is about as sweet as it can get in experimental science as to providing proof that Almighty God created and sustains this universe.,,,
The Word Is Alive - Casting Crowns - music video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5197438/
bornagain77
,,,It is important to note that the following experiment actually encoded information into a photon while it was in its quantum wave state, thus destroying the notion, held by many, that the wave function was not ‘physically real’ but was merely ‘abstract’. i.e. How can information possibly be encoded into something that is not physically real but merely abstract?,,,
Ultra-Dense Optical Storage – on One Photon Excerpt: Researchers at the University of Rochester have made an optics breakthrough that allows them to encode an entire image’s worth of data into a photon, slow the image down for storage, and then retrieve the image intact. http://www.physorg.com/news88439430.html Information In Photon - Robert W. Boyd - slides from presentation http://www.quantumphotonics.uottawa.ca/assets/pdf/Boyd-Como-InPho.pdf Information in a Photon - Robert W. Boyd - 2010 Excerpt: By its conventional definition, a photon is one unit of excitation of a mode of the electromagnetic field. The modes of the electromagnetic field constitute a countably infinite set of basis functions, and in this sense the amount of information that can be impressed onto an individual photon is unlimited. http://www.pqeconference.com/pqe2011/abstractd/013.pdf
Here is a more rigorous measurement of the wave function which establishes it as 'physically real';
Direct measurement of the quantum wavefunction - June 2011 Excerpt: The wavefunction is the complex distribution used to completely describe a quantum system, and is central to quantum theory. But despite its fundamental role, it is typically introduced as an abstract element of the theory with no explicit definition.,,, Here we show that the wavefunction can be measured directly by the sequential measurement of two complementary variables of the system. The crux of our method is that the first measurement is performed in a gentle way through weak measurement so as not to invalidate the second. The result is that the real and imaginary components of the wavefunction appear directly on our measurement apparatus. We give an experimental example by directly measuring the transverse spatial wavefunction of a single photon, a task not previously realized by any method. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v474/n7350/full/nature10120.html
,,,The following paper mathematically corroborated the preceding experiment and cleaned up some pretty nasty probabilistic incongruities that arose from a purely statistical interpretation, i.e. it seems that stacking a ‘random infinity’, (parallel universes to explain quantum wave collapse), on top of another ‘random infinity’, to explain quantum entanglement, leads to irreconcilable mathematical absurdities within quantum mechanics:,,,
Quantum Theory’s ‘Wavefunction’ Found to Be Real Physical Entity: Scientific American – November 2011 Excerpt: David Wallace, a philosopher of physics at the University of Oxford, UK, says that the theorem is the most important result in the foundations of quantum mechanics that he has seen in his 15-year professional career. “This strips away obscurity and shows you can’t have an interpretation of a quantum state as probabilistic,” he says. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=quantum-theorys-wavefunction The quantum (wave) state cannot be interpreted statistically – November 2011 http://lanl.arxiv.org/abs/1111.3328
Moreover:
Looking Beyond Space and Time to Cope With Quantum Theory – (Oct. 28, 2012) Excerpt: To derive their inequality, which sets up a measurement of entanglement between four particles, the researchers considered what behaviours are possible for four particles that are connected by influences that stay hidden and that travel at some arbitrary finite speed. Mathematically (and mind-bogglingly), these constraints define an 80-dimensional object. The testable hidden influence inequality is the boundary of the shadow this 80-dimensional shape casts in 44 dimensions. The researchers showed that quantum predictions can lie outside this boundary, which means they are going against one of the assumptions. Outside the boundary, either the influences can’t stay hidden, or they must have infinite speed.,,, The remaining option is to accept that (quantum) influences must be infinitely fast,,, “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” says Nicolas Gisin, Professor at the University of Geneva, Switzerland,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121028142217.htm
,,,The following logical deduction and evidence shows that consciousness precedes the collapse of the 'infinite information' of the quantum wave state to the single bit of the 'uncertain' particle state,,,
The argument for God from consciousness can be framed like this: 1. Consciousness either precedes all of material reality or is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. Three intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, Leggett’s Inequalities): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G_Fi50ljF5w_XyJHfmSIZsOcPFhgoAZ3PRc_ktY8cFo/edit “It was not possible to formulate the laws (of quantum theory) in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness.” Eugene Wigner (1902 -1995) from his collection of essays “Symmetries and Reflections – Scientific Essays”; Eugene Wigner laid the foundation for the theory of symmetries in quantum mechanics, for which he received the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1963.
,,,Wigner stated this in regards to his Nobel Prize winning work on Quantum Symmetries,,,
Eugene Wigner Excerpt: To express this basic experience in a more direct way: the world does not have a privileged center, there is no absolute rest, preferred direction, unique origin of calendar time, even left and right seem to be rather symmetric. The interference of electrons, photons, neutrons has indicated that the state of a particle can be described by a vector possessing a certain number of components. As the observer is replaced by another observer (working elsewhere, looking at a different direction, using another clock, perhaps being left-handed), the state of the very same particle is described by another vector, obtained from the previous vector by multiplying it with a matrix. This matrix transfers from one observer to another. http://www.reak.bme.hu/Wigner_Course/WignerBio/wb1.htm
,,,i.e. In the experiment the 'world' (i.e. the universe) does not have a ‘privileged center’. Yet strangely, the conscious observer does exhibit a 'privileged center'. This is since the 'matrix', which determines which vector will be used to describe the particle in the experiment, is 'observer-centric' in its origination! Thus explaining Wigner’s dramatic statement, “It was not possible to formulate the laws (of quantum theory) in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness.”,,, bornagain77
Here is another experiment which demonstrated quantum information's dominion over space and time (specifically time);
Physicists describe method to observe timelike entanglement - January 2011 Excerpt: In "ordinary" quantum entanglement, two particles possess properties that are inherently linked with each other, even though the particles may be spatially separated by a large distance. Now, physicists S. Jay Olson and Timothy C. Ralph from the University of Queensland have shown that it's possible to create entanglement between regions of spacetime that are separated in time but not in space, and then to convert the timelike entanglement into normal spacelike entanglement. They also discuss the possibility of using this timelike entanglement from the quantum vacuum for a process they call "teleportation in time." "To me, the exciting aspect of this result (that entanglement exists between the future and past) is that it is quite a general property of nature and opens the door to new creativity, since we know that entanglement can be viewed as a resource for quantum technology," Olson told PhysOrg.com. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-01-physicists-method-timelike-entanglement.html
and this experiment: Here’s a variation of Wheeler’s Delayed Choice experiment, which highlights quantum information's transcendence of time so as to effect 'spooky action into the past';
Quantum physics mimics spooky action into the past - April 23, 2012 Excerpt: The authors experimentally realized a "Gedankenexperiment" called "delayed-choice entanglement swapping", formulated by Asher Peres in the year 2000. Two pairs of entangled photons are produced, and one photon from each pair is sent to a party called Victor. Of the two remaining photons, one photon is sent to the party Alice and one is sent to the party Bob. Victor can now choose between two kinds of measurements. If he decides to measure his two photons in a way such that they are forced to be in an entangled state, then also Alice's and Bob's photon pair becomes entangled. If Victor chooses to measure his particles individually, Alice's and Bob's photon pair ends up in a separable state. Modern quantum optics technology allowed the team to delay Victor's choice and measurement with respect to the measurements which Alice and Bob perform on their photons. "We found that whether Alice's and Bob's photons are entangled and show quantum correlations or are separable and show classical correlations can be decided after they have been measured", explains Xiao-song Ma, lead author of the study. According to the famous words of Albert Einstein, the effects of quantum entanglement appear as "spooky action at a distance". The recent experiment has gone one remarkable step further. "Within a naïve classical world view, quantum mechanics can even mimic an influence of future actions on past events", says Anton Zeilinger. http://phys.org/news/2012-04-quantum-physics-mimics-spooky-action.html
,,,Whereas these following experiment gives strong indication that that quantum information is 'conserved',,,
Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. This concept stems from two fundamental theorems of quantum mechanics: the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem. A third and related theorem, called the no-hiding theorem, addresses information loss in the quantum world. According to the no-hiding theorem, if information is missing from one system (which may happen when the system interacts with the environment), then the information is simply residing somewhere else in the Universe; in other words, the missing information cannot be hidden in the correlations between a system and its environment. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html Quantum no-deleting theorem Excerpt: A stronger version of the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem provide permanence to quantum information. To create a copy one must import the information from some part of the universe and to delete a state one needs to export it to another part of the universe where it will continue to exist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_no-deleting_theorem#Consequence
,,,Moreover, the quantum wave state (superposition), which is defined as a infinite dimensional state, and which can theoretically be encoded with infinite information, collapses to its particle state, the collapsed state yields only a single bit of information:,,,
Wave function Excerpt "wave functions form an abstract vector space",,, This vector space is infinite-dimensional, because there is no finite set of functions which can be added together in various combinations to create every possible function. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_function#Wave_functions_as_an_abstract_vector_space Single photons to soak up data: Excerpt: the orbital angular momentum of a photon can take on an infinite number of values. Since a photon can also exist in a superposition of these states, it could – in principle – be encoded with an infinite amount of information. http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/7201 Quantum Computing – Stanford Encyclopedia Excerpt: Theoretically, a single qubit can store an infinite amount of information, yet when measured (and thus collapsing the Quantum Wave state) it yields only the classical result (0 or 1),,, http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-quantcomp/#2.1 Zeilinger's principle The principle that any elementary system carries just one bit of information. This principle was put forward by the Austrian physicist Anton Zeilinger in 1999 and subsequently developed by him to derive several aspects of quantum mechanics. http://science.jrank.org/pages/20784/Zeilinger%27s-principle.html#ixzz17a7f88PM Why the Quantum? It from Bit? A Participatory Universe? Excerpt: In conclusion, it may very well be said that information is the irreducible kernel from which everything else flows. Thence the question why nature appears quantized is simply a consequence of the fact that information itself is quantized by necessity. It might even be fair to observe that the concept that information is fundamental is very old knowledge of humanity, witness for example the beginning of gospel according to John: "In the beginning was the Word." Anton Zeilinger - a leading expert in quantum teleportation:
,,,moreover, encoded information, such as we find encoded in computers, and yes, such as we find encoded in DNA, is found to be a subset of 'conserved' quantum information:,,,
Quantum knowledge cools computers: New understanding of entropy - June 2011 Excerpt: No heat, even a cooling effect; In the case of perfect classical knowledge of a computer memory (zero entropy), deletion of the data requires in theory no energy at all. The researchers prove that "more than complete knowledge" from quantum entanglement with the memory (negative entropy) leads to deletion of the data being accompanied by removal of heat from the computer and its release as usable energy. This is the physical meaning of negative entropy. Renner emphasizes, however, "This doesn't mean that we can develop a perpetual motion machine." The data can only be deleted once, so there is no possibility to continue to generate energy. The process also destroys the entanglement, and it would take an input of energy to reset the system to its starting state. The equations are consistent with what's known as the second law of thermodynamics: the idea that the entropy of the universe can never decrease. Vedral says "We're working on the edge of the second law. If you go any further, you will break it." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110601134300.htm
bornagain77
G2 this statement is simply outlandish: "It (modern science) simply has not, in many years of investigation, provided evidence for the supernatural." Quantum Evidence for a Theistic Universe
"Physics is the only real science. The rest are just stamp collecting." -- Ernest Rutherford
From the best scientific evidence we now have, from multiple intersecting lines of evidence, we now have very good reason to believe that the entire universe came instantaneously into origination at the Big Bang. Not only was all mass-energy brought into being, but space-time itself was also instantaneously brought into being at the Big Bang!!!
"Every solution to the equations of general relativity guarantees the existence of a singular boundary for space and time in the past." (Hawking, Penrose, Ellis) - 1970 “All the evidence we have says that the universe had a beginning.” - (Paper announced at Hawking's 70th birthday party) Cosmologist Alexander Vilenkin of Tufts University in Boston - January 2012 https://uncommondesc.wpengine.com/intelligent-design/vilenkins-verdict-all-the-evidence-we-have-says-that-the-universe-had-a-beginning/
Thus it logically follows that whatever brought the universe into being had to be transcendent of space-time, mass-energy. Yet the only thing that we know of that is completely transcendent of space-time, matter-energy is information. Thus the question becomes did information bring space-time, mass-energy into being?,,, simple enough question, but how do we prove it? It turns out that quantum teleportation breakthroughs have shed light directly on this question!,,, Here are a few experiments establishing the ‘beyond space and time’ 'information theoretic' origin, and sustaining, of this universe,; Quantum Mechanics has now been extended by Anton Zeilinger, and team, to falsify local realism (reductive materialism) without even using quantum entanglement to do it. i.e. one must now appeal to a ‘non-local’, beyond space and time, cause to explain the continued existence of photons within space-time:
‘Quantum Magic’ Without Any ‘Spooky Action at a Distance’ – June 2011 Excerpt: A team of researchers led by Anton Zeilinger at the University of Vienna and the Institute for Quantum Optics and Quantum Information of the Austrian Academy of Sciences used a system which does not allow for entanglement, and still found results which cannot be interpreted classically. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110624111942.htm
The following experiments demonstrate that energy and mass reduce to quantum information;
How Teleportation Will Work - Excerpt: In 1993, the idea of teleportation moved out of the realm of science fiction and into the world of theoretical possibility. It was then that physicist Charles Bennett and a team of researchers at IBM confirmed that quantum teleportation was possible, but only if the original object being teleported was destroyed. --- As predicted, the original photon no longer existed once the replica was made. http://science.howstuffworks.com/teleportation1.htm Quantum Teleportation - IBM Research Page Excerpt: "it would destroy the original (photon) in the process,," http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation/ Explaining Information Transfer in Quantum Teleportation: Armond Duwell †‡ University of Pittsburgh Excerpt: In contrast to a classical bit, the description of a (photon) qubit requires an infinite amount of information. The amount of information is infinite because two real numbers are required in the expansion of the state vector of a two state quantum system (Jozsa 1997, 1) --- Concept 2. is used by Bennett, et al. Recall that they infer that since an infinite amount of information is required to specify a (photon) qubit, an infinite amount of information must be transferred to teleport. http://www.cas.umt.edu/phil/faculty/duwell/DuwellPSA2K.pdf
,,,The following articles show that even atoms are subject to 'instantaneous' teleportation:,,,
Ions have been teleported successfully for the first time by two independent research groups Excerpt: In fact, copying isn't quite the right word for it. In order to reproduce the quantum state of one atom in a second atom, the original has to be destroyed. This is unavoidable - it is enforced by the laws of quantum mechanics, which stipulate that you can't 'clone' a quantum state. In principle, however, the 'copy' can be indistinguishable from the original (that was destroyed),,, http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/Issues/2004/October/beammeup.asp Atom takes a quantum leap - 2009 Excerpt: Ytterbium ions have been 'teleported' over a distance of a metre.,,, "What you're moving is information, not the actual atoms," says Chris Monroe, from the Joint Quantum Institute at the University of Maryland in College Park and an author of the paper. But as two particles of the same type differ only in their quantum states, the transfer of quantum information is equivalent to moving the first particle to the location of the second. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2171769/posts
,,,These following experiments show that the teleportation of information is indeed 'instantaneous', thus demonstrating transcendence, and even dominion, of space and time;,,,
Light and Quantum Entanglement Reflect Some Characteristics Of God – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4102182/ Researchers Succeed in Quantum Teleportation of Light Waves - April 2011 Excerpt: In this experiment, researchers in Australia and Japan were able to transfer quantum information from one place to another without having to physically move it. It was destroyed in one place and instantly resurrected in another, “alive” again and unchanged. This is a major advance, as previous teleportation experiments were either very slow or caused some information to be lost. http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2011-04/quantum-teleportation-breakthrough-could-lead-instantanous-computing
bornagain77
What a tool.
Modern Science hasnt falsified gods, because it cannot.
Why can't science falsify gods? It cannot even falsify natural gods? Why can't science at least make their existence less likely?
It [science] simply has not, in many years of investigation, provided evidence for the supernatural.
So what? Maybe it is incapable of doing so. Maybe it can no more provide evidence for the supernatural than it can falsify gods.
It [science] simply has not, in many years of investigation, provided evidence for the supernatural.
How do you know? And what has science told us about gods which are not supernatural?
Thats why the supernatural plays no part in how Science is applied.
Huh? Science has no evidence for it so it plays no role in how science is done? That doesn't even make sense. For many many years there was no evidence that the universe had a beginning, yet that didn't affect how science was done. Or did it? Mung
KN said:
For one thing, brains are notoriously imperfect."
And yet, brain (not "your" brain, because that would imply a false separation, as if there is another player involved) issues forth this statement with such certainty, not cognizant of the self-defeating nature of the claim. KN said:
I didn’t mean to say that all of our thoughts are correct by virtue of how brains work (or tend to work.
So, without the schizophrenic reference to non-existent commodities (a separate "I" and a separate means of evaluation), you are saying: "Flawed brain is going to use flawed brain to assess the quality of flawed brain's output." Good luck with that self-defeating position. William J Murray
Hi! First time caller here. So, help me out: how do IDers make the leap from "there might be an intelligent creator" to "the intelligent creator is the Abrahamic God specifically"? UD Editors: They don't. smartyartblast
@Graham2: "A question for you: Does our mind die when our body dies?" This may be of interest to you, or it may not. Dr Eben Alexander, a neurosurgeon, stated the following in a Q&A: "One thing that we will have to let go of is this kind of addiction to simplistic, primitive reductive materialism because there’s really no way that I can see a reductive materialist model coming remotely in the right ballpark to explain what we really know about consciousness now. Coming from a neurosurgeon who, before my coma, thought I was quite certain how the brain and the mind interacted and it was clear to me that there were many things I could do or see done on my patients and it would eliminate consciousness. It was very clear in that realm that the brain gives you consciousness and everything else and when the brain dies there goes consciousness, soul, mind—it’s all gone. And it was clear. Now, having been through my coma, I can tell you that’s exactly wrong and that in fact the mind and consciousness are independent of the brain. It’s very hard to explain that, certainly if you’re limiting yourself to that reductive materialist view." Dr Eben Alexander's experience is not so easily dismissed and I for one, would certainly not consider it "hopeless". KRock
Timeaus: Perhaps you would like my social security number as well. I dont respond well to demands. Modern Science hasnt falsified gods, because it cannot. It simply has not, in many years of investigation, provided evidence for the supernatural. Thats why the supernatural plays no part in how Science is applied. Do we pray that a bridge stays up ? No. We trust the engineer. Graham2
Graham2: I'll answer your question about mind when you do the following things: 1. Withdraw your claim that *modern science* has made belief in a disembodied intelligence no longer credible (I'm not asking you endorse the existence of disembodied intelligence, but only to admit that modern science has not falsified or even seriously diminished the possibility of such an entity); 2. Give me a full list of the books and articles by ID proponents (Nelson, Behe, Wells, Dembski, Meyer, Denton, Axe, Gauger, Minnich, Sternberg, etc.) that you have read entirely through. 3. Give me a full list of your university and college degrees (you don't have to name the schools, just the degrees), specifying subjects as clearly as possible. Otherwise, you'll never hear my views on the subject you've asked about. Timaeus
In re: bornagain77 @ 176: I'm sorry to hear you feel that way. And we were getting along so well. Kantian Naturalist
Graham2: Your comments about the Bible in 187 are blather. Genesis 1 can't be measured by "English Expression" because it was written in Hebrew. (And someone who hasn't mastered apostrophe and capitalization rules is in an awkward position to lecture anyone on English expression in the first place.) Further, Genesis 1 does not claim to have been written by the Creator. Others have made that claim for it, but the text itself is silent about who wrote it. Next, Genesis 1 is readable, and more than readable; it is an extremely well-constructed text. Any good book-length commentary can explain why. I would guess that by "unreadable" you mean "makes no sense as an explanation of the kind offered by modern science" -- which is true; it makes no sense of that kind. But the logical conclusion is not necessarily that Genesis is confused or bad science; one logical conclusion is that Genesis is trying to do something other than science. And this is the view of the world's leading Biblical scholars. Finally, to ask whether Genesis is meant to be understood literally, before *first* understanding its literary structure, is to put the cart before the horse. Until you see the plan of the chapter, questions about historicity are premature and can be seriously misleading. (And of course, the question arises why you are talking about Genesis in the first place, when ID people have repeatedly shouted themselves hoarse in declaring that their arguments are not based on Genesis. Obviously you equate ID with creationism. This raises the question whether you have even the most elementary reading comprehension skills, since ID people have told you that ID is not creationism and have explained in great detail why. You can consult the FAQ here or you can read any number of articles on the Discovery site if you cannot yet grasp the difference.) Timaeus
Graham in 180 you state: "As for the disembodied thingy, this is not supported by any known Science. There is simply nothing in Physics, etc, that can possible support this idea." Well perhaps you should add physics to the list of things you need to study: the argument for God from consciousness can be framed like this: 1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. Three intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, Leggett’s Inequalities): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G_Fi50ljF5w_XyJHfmSIZsOcPFhgoAZ3PRc_ktY8cFo/edit bornagain77
Timeaus: I think we have done this to death. If you think Science rests on Christian theology, so be it. Im still interested in an answer to my question about the mind though. Could you indulge me ? Graham2
Graham2: You continue to miss the point. You say that God does not appear in physics books, and that F = ma remains true no matter what a scientist's religious belief. I grant all this. Nobody here has denied it. No ID person in the world denies it. But the fact that we live in the kind of universe for which we should expect things such as F = ma to be true, and can count on uncovering other such relationships through research, raises questions: Why is the universe seemingly law-bound? And why do the laws take a mathematical (rational) form? And why do there exist beings (human beings) capable of discovering these mathematical laws? You don't appear to have given such questions even a moment's thought. But never mind that. Go back to your original claim. Your claim was that belief in a disembodied intellect went against "science." Your claim was that such a notion was "preposterous." If you are now modifying that claim, if you are now admitting that belief in a disembodied intelligence is neither preposterous nor against science, and if you are lowering your claim to the claim that "scientists don't appeal to miraculous interventions of disembodied intelligences to explain natural phenomena," then you will find agreement with a good number of ID proponents. But that wasn't your original claim. Your original claim, put crudely, was that only a dummy or an ignoramus could today still believe in a disembodied intelligence, because science has made such a belief impossible. And that claim was false, (a) because science, per se, has no power to refute the existence of such an entity, (b) because many who are far from scientifically ignorant, and who in fact know the results of modern science both in detail and in general outline far better than you do, accept the existence of disembodied intelligences, and (c) because -- at least if a certain historical/philosophical analysis is correct -- science depends upon an empiricism which depends upon certain features of Christian theology, making the existence of "disembodied intelligence" not only not "against science" but in fact the very presupposition of all science. I conclude that your claim -- as originally stated -- has been adequately refuted. And if I am right in supposing that you are now modifying that claim as I have suggested, I conclude that your modified claim is trivial, since everyone (ID people included) acknowledges that the normal practice of scientists is not to appeal to supernatural interventions. And in any case, nothing in ID *requires* supernatural interventions (though ID is compatible with them -- but that's a different thing). Timaeus
Timeaus: Could you answer my question about the mind @ 180. ? I am most curious. Graham2
Timeaus @ 182: there are many different ... readings of Genesis Incredible. Yes, I agree I am no theologian, but how can it possibly be taken seriously when your foundational text cannot even get the most basic idea right ? Is the bible to be read literally or not ? It pretty basic, isnt it ? The great creator hasnt even mastered English Expression 101. I would have some smidgin of respect for this stuff if the first chapter of the book could even be read. Even IKEA does better than that. Graham2
Is Atheism Rationally Justifiable? Sure, if you're willing to give up atheism. Mung
The point being, Graham2, that in order to argue against theism you have to make certain assumptions, all of which you are not entitled to make without making a rational argument for them. Unless you're irrational. Good luck. Mung
G2 - You are brave but not well informed. There are most certainly literal interpretations of Genesis that are compatible with evolution. The day-age interpretation is one. There are others. Look into it. ecs2
Perhaps Graham2 can come up with 10 arguments in favor of atheism. The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology Introduction ix William Lane Craig and J. P. Moreland 1 The project of natural theology 1 Charles Taliaferro 2 The Leibnizian cosmological argument 24 Alexander R. Pruss 3 The kalam cosmological argument 101 William Lane Craig and James D. Sinclair 4 The teleological argument: an exploration of the fine-tuning of the universe 202 Robin Collins 5 The argument from consciousness 282 J. P. Moreland 6 The argument from reason 344 Victor Reppert 7 The moral argument 391 Mark D. Linville 8 The argument from evil 449 Stewart Goetz 9 The argument from religious experience 498 Kai-Man Kwan 10 The ontological argument 553 Robert E. Maydole 11 The argument from miracles: a cumulative case for the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth 593 Timothy McGrew and Lydia McGrew Mung
Graham2: Genesis (which should be spelled with a capital letter) only "conflicts" with "evolution" if Genesis is read in a certain way. But there are many different Christian (and Jewish) readings of Genesis. Vincent Torley is not Ken Ham, and Michael Behe is not Henry Morris. You don't seem to have read very widely in these debates, because the sweeping generalizations you make suggest someone who has only a glancing acquaintance of the various positions. You would be more successful in debate if you would first familiarize yourself with the positions you are arguing about. And you should perhaps be aware that many of the people posting regularly here on these subjects have been studying them for 10 or 20 years or more, and that many of them have advanced degrees in the natural sciences, philosophy, theology, and history of science. In such an environment, a barroom-style of argument, where one makes up the argument as one goes along, is not likely to be successful. There is no substitute for doing one's homework in this particular "classroom." Timaeus
Graham2: I'm glad it worries you because the discussion of whether or not reality is knowable has been a big topic for a few centuries. I think I have made my point to you and any onlookers. If you don't get it by now then let me spell it out for you. Then I am done. Atheism is not your default position. That there is a reality and that it is knowable. That there is this thing called Truth which is testable by correspondence to reality. That nature is regular (which you admitted you assume). These are your default positions. These are the things you have to presuppose in order to test evidence and see if it is "good". Your Atheism is a result of these prior commitments. That was the point of Mr. Murray's post. You have to make a positive case for each of these foundational ideas. To deny otherwise is to just stick your head in the sand. Thank you for the discussion. Steve_Gann
Timeaus: I know great scientists believed in god, etc. I dont need to be lectured about it. But if you read a physics text, there is no mention of god. Newton may have believed in pixies (or not). So what ? The expression F=Ma remains as true despite his beliefs. And if Newton didnt believe anything, he may have never have bequeathed us this piece of knowledge. I rather doubt this, but again, so what ? It doesnt affect the nature or truth of the expression F=Ma. And why just the Christian religion ? The Muslims did pretty well, for a while. As for the disembodied thingy, this is not supported by any known Science. There is simply nothing in Physics, etc, that can possible support this idea. Where does it reside ? Does it have mass ? Can we ever see it ? Is it affected by magnetism ? All these questions are simply absurd, because the mind/soul/god/whatever is simply undefined. Its like talking about Santa Clause: Science simply has nothing that can support it. A question for you: Does our mind die when our body dies ? More to the point, can you justify your answer ? Graham2
"Uncommon Descent is devoted to discrediting Evolution because it challenges their [sic] world view." Really, Graham2? Then how do you explain that Uncommon Descent has over the course of its existence featured a number of columnists who have explicitly or indirectly affirmed belief in evolution, including: nullasalus, Denyse O'Leary, Vincent Torley, Thomas Cudworth, Michael Behe, Dave Scot, Steve Fuller, Gregory -- and that it regularly publishes comments by Christian believers in evolution such as StephenB and Jon Garvey? Does that sound to you like a site that is adamantly opposed to "evolution"? I think that if you look carefully, you will see that, despite its name, UD actually takes the standard ID position against *Darwinian* evolution. But Darwinian evolution is only one type of evolution. I suggest you learn to discriminate between the generic term "evolution" and the particular versions of evolution, before you make any further comments about what the ID or UD position on evolution is. Timaeus
Steve @ 175: Statements like that worry me. Look out the window ... thats reality. If you combine elements in certain proprtions, you get a certain result. Thats reality. Will it always happen that way ? Who knows ? Reality has been well behaved for a long time now, so the assumption of regularity has served us well. If you have some better idea, then let us know. Graham2
Graham2 wrote: "The truth of (say) the periodic table is unaffected. Its [sic] been tested and its [sic] the right one." So what? Not a single ID proponent has challenged the validity of the periodic table. Nor, for that matter, has the most narrow-minded creationist. Nor does the truth of the periodic table have anything to do with the "preposterousness" of a "disembodied intelligence." I am trying to get you to focus on your claim about the conflict between science and a disembodied intelligence. But either are you willfully avoiding my points, or you don't grasp them. I suspect it's the former, but just in case it's the latter, and you need extra help: NEWTON BELIEVED IN A DISEMBODIED INTELLIGENCE. HE GAVE US NEWTONIAN PHYSICS. BOYLE BELIEVED IN A DISEMBODIED INTELLIGENCE. HE GAVE US THE FOUNDATIONS OF CHEMISTRY. KEPLER BELIEVED IN A DISEMBODIED INTELLIGENCE. GALILEO BELIEVED IN A DISEMBODIED INTELLIGENCE. JAMES CLERK-MAXWELL BELIEVED IN A DISEMBODIED INTELLIGENCE. Are you starting to get the picture? Men who contributed far more to science than you will ever contribute in your lifetime, men whose intellect, knowledge, creativity and influence upon the human race utterly dwarf your own, believed in a disembodied intelligence. And they did not think that belief in such a disembodied intelligence was in conflict with "science." Is that clear enough for you? Are you beginning to see the problem with your assertion? You also wrote: "If it would not have happened for another 100 years, save for our Christian heritage, then hooray, but its here now." You miss the point. My point was not that Christianity *sped up* the birth of modern science, so that it happened some years sooner than it otherwise would have. My point is that MODERN SCIENCE MIGHT NOT HAVE HAPPENED, *EVER*, IF IT WEREN'T FOR CHRISTIANITY, BECAUSE CHRISTIANITY CONTAINS CERTAIN KEY ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT NATURE WITHOUT WHICH THERE CAN BE NO NATURAL SCIENCE, AND (ARGUABLY) NO OTHER RELIGIOUS TRADITION CONTAINS THOSE ASSUMPTIONS. Can you see the difference? And if the upper-case hypothesis turns out to be correct, your idea that a "disembodied intelligence" is "contrary to science" would be completely false. In fact, belief in that "disembodied intelligence" would REMAIN the implicit assumption of all valid science, even if scientists aren't *consciously* aware of the debt they owe to the notion. Thus, a Buddhist or atheist, in doing science, would be leaning on the Christian understanding of nature without even being aware of it. That's what you're not seeing, and won't see, until you start reading good books and articles on the history and metaphysical foundations of science. Timaeus
KN @163 As far as I'm concerned you are building castles in the sky with your empty sophistry when you do not honestly engage the empirical evidence such as I presented. Like I said before, with your rejection of mind and with your rejection of reductive materialism you have even less evidence for your 'naturalistic' worldview than the neo-Darwinists does for his worldview (which is non-existent). And no amount of word play from you will vanquish the absolute empirical poverty you wallow in. In regards to the OP I hold you to be a picture perfect definition of intellectual dishonesty! I'm quite sure you probably believe or at least wish what you write is true, but I can also see how 'philosophers' like you, in contrast to the other philosophers on UD who take empirical evidence very seriously, have tarnished the image of philosophy so badly that now many people of the general public view philosophy as completely disconnected from reality! bornagain77
Graham2: You said: "The point is, it matches reality, so we use it. If someone can provide a better table, one that is a better match on reality, it will be eagerly adopted, but so far the table we have is our best bet." That takes the position that Truth can be determined by how well a proposition corresponds to reality. This is a position that needs to be defended. One reason why is you have used the word "reality". What makes reality behave in such a way that you think one can correspond ideas to it? Do you believe it is orderly and uniform? If so, did you arrive at those beliefs by evidence as well? Steve_Gann
In re: Mung @ 167: Nominalism could be construed in two different ways: as denying that there are generals (but only particulars) or as denying that there are abstracta but only concreta. Or one might take the view that there are only concrete particulars, which is in fact my view. Or more precisely, I think that generals and abstracta play a fundamentally important role in structuring our thought and discourse about the world, but that not all of our thought and discourse about the world really "makes contact" with the world of concrete particulars. Our thought and discourse is "polydimensional": there are multiple dimensions of discourse, such as the mathematical, the empirical-scientific, the artistic, the moral, the modal, the semantic, and the philosophical. (The job of philosophical discourse is to understand how all the rest are connected to each other and to the world.) Now, let me call "picturing" that causally-grounded relation between cognitive processes and the concrete particulars, the processes, which obtain in the world. An animal, such as one of my dogs, only pictures: she reliably detects patterns amongst the objects and relations that are motivationally salient to her. The thought now is this: while the conceptual scheme of an animal mind can only picture, the conceptual scheme of normal mature human minds not only pictures but also contains numerous other dimensions as well. And there are linkages -- rational, i.e. inferential linkages -- between these dimensions. But only one dimension of discourse pictures, and that is empirical discourse: the discourse pertaining to concrete, particular objects in Space and Time as we perceive them and manipulate them with our bodies and machines. Kantian Naturalist
Graham2: You said, "Atheism is the starting (default) position of not believing anything. From there I will aquire beliefs if justified by the evidence." Acquiring beliefs trough evidence is an epistemological position. You do have one after all! Since you used the word "justified" you will have to explain what that entails. What system do you use to tell if evidence is "good" (quoted from our original posts)? For instance, do you allow that miracles could possibly happen? Steve_Gann
Graham2:
I would rather place my ‘faith’ in Evolution than an invisible friend in the sky.
I believe you. I don't doubt at all that your faith that god doesn't exist is based on your druthers. It certainly doesn't appear to be based on any warrant. Phinehas
In re: William Murray @ 133:
If brains by nature “reliably detect real patterns in the world”, and all such thoughts and assertions and conclusions are rational, then both the atheistic materialist and the kantian naturalist and the spiritual theist have rationally detected real patterns and have come to equally rational conclusions from them. Thus, you are arguing for no significant reason here.
I like this line of criticism a lot, and it helps me re-formulate my view somewhat. I didn't mean to say that all of our thoughts are correct by virtue of how brains work (or tend to work). For one thing, brains are notoriously imperfect. Which is fine, since they only have to work pretty well, most of the time. I only said that in order to undermine the worry about global skepticism. For another thing, not all of our reliable pattern-detection amounts to rational thought; it's that I see reliable pattern-detection as the 'ground' (so to speak) of rational thought. Now, it's quite correct that thought, to be genuinely rational, requires some kind of external constraint. And there are kinds of external constraints: rational external constraints and causal external constraints. That the source of causal external constraints is the world is, I would assume, obvious to everyone except idealists. So then the question is, what's the source of external rational constraint? In my view, external rational constraint is provided by the community of language-speakers. The correctness of my thoughts has two different grounds: whether they are the results of the right kinds of causal connections within my brain and between my brain and the objects and events in the world, and whether they conform to the shared norms of my linguistic community. That's why it makes sense to me for me to be arguing here with you all; we're all playing the same game of giving and asking for reasons. If I really wanted to be provocative -- and rest assured, I do! -- I'd call my view "rational naturalism." And this is, perhaps, really the interesting thing -- to me -- about how naturalism stands in the history of philosophy. Ever since Plato got the ball rolling, philosophers have held that perception and intellect are basically the same kind of thing -- just as there are perceptible objects detected by our perceptual abilities, so too there are intelligible objects detected by our intellectual abilities. You and I stand in a certain relation to the physical object, the tree, and so we both perceive the tree. Likewise, you and I are both thinking about circles, and so we both 'perceive,' intellectually, the circle, or circularity, etc. But here's the alternative, as I see it: to think of the ground of intellect as being fundamentally social or socio-linguistic in character. Whether this yields relativism is an interesting question. I do not think it does, because I think that any community, in order to function as a community at all, must have shared norms of some sort -- and that yields external rational constraint, or objectivity. It does not yield a transcendent source for absolute certainty, and some might be made anxious by that, though the abandonment of the quest for certainty doesn't faze me. So, two kinds of external constraint: causal constraint on embodied perception, and rational constraint on embodied thought; the former constraint grounded in the physical environment, the latter constraint grounded in the social environment. This is a great view! What's not to like about this? Kantian Naturalist
Mung 164: You are way too smart to not just be playing with this unless I've been unclear. The OT prophecies concerning His incarnation and all He would do and why and when are sufficient to indicate "infinite mathematical proof" thus a rational basis for not just Christ, but as a rational foundation for theism generally. I know you like to stretch ideas, but here its not worth your time so to speak when a much bigger picture is being presented. and..."the twain shall never meet" ? Do chapters of books never "meet" - 33 or even 70 AD are not the end of the story of this world... alan
To Mung @ 165: I am too busy for much more of this, but you sucked me in. one table of the elements sounds like a statement of faith No, no, no. You dont get it at all. The table is exactly NOT a matter of faith. Thats EXACTLY what it is NOT. Its the result of years of observation, trial+error. Its the best fit on what we see in the real world. Yes, there may be other tables. Yes, carbon may spntaneously change to something else on Thursday, but we havent observed it, so we dont record it. The periodic table (Im using it as a metaphor for Science) is our best guess. In fact, we know its not complete. The bottom edge is ragged because the very heavy elements are so short lived, its as far as we have got. Presumably it extends further down. The point is, it matches reality, so we use it. If someone can provide a better table, one that is a better match on reality, it will be eagerly adopted, but so far the table we have is our best bet. Graham2
Timaeus @ 160: Whether Science would have arisen in a non-christian culture is an interesting question, but not greatly relevant. Perhaps it wouldnt, perhaps it would but later, or even earlier. I dont really care. Its interesting, but the fact is that we are now off and running. The truth of (say) the periodic table is unaffected. Its been tested and its the right one. If it would not have happened for another 100 years, save for our Christian heritage, then hooray, but its here now. You seem to be obsessed with the history of the subject, like others here who nit pick over whether Darwin beat his wife. Its not important (to the Science). get over it. That Science challenges religion is amply demonstrated by the very conversation we are having now, in this very blog. UncommonDescent is devoted to discrediting Evolution because it challenges their world view. Evolution is one story, genesis is a totally different one. They conflict. They both cant be right. Its not just Evolution of course, but that is the hot issue here. Graham2
KN:
Now, it bears emphasis that naturalism and nominalism are quite different views — one can be a nominalist without being a naturalist, but also one can be a naturalist without being a nominalist. I have a moderate commitment to naturalism and a weak commitment to nominalism.
How so!? How one could study nature and be a nominalist is beyond me, hehe. Forgive my equivocating over the word naturalist. :) Can one be a nominalist coherently? Mung
Kairofocus - I quite agree with #156. Early in my academic study and especially during graduate school I worked from a subconscious assumption that only provable conclusions were valid. However, I realized I was living a half-life by choice. Even as a PhD scientist, I realized that while empirical or scientific evidence are essential to the scientific process, that does not discount experiential intuition as a human being. A book I read early in the period where I was seriously seeking was "The Intellectuals Speak Out on God". I was surprised by how many eminent scientists were religious and further cited science as a supporting element of their faith. Science is not in conflict with religion. Some scientists may be, but science itself is not. ecs2
Graham2 probably doesn't think mathematics is a science. Or that some sciences are mathematical and others are not. That there is only one table of the elements sounds like a statement of faith. Graham2 has no reason for the periodic table, much less that there is only one periodic table, or that it was even discoverable by human reasoning. It just happened, that's all, hardly qualifies as scientific, does it? Mung
alan:
no, no, no – Old Testament to Christ, with no need to figure in post 33 AD – last days which have their own if known.
So there is the "last days" of the old testament and the "last days" of the new testament and never the twain shall meet? Mung
There have been several quite interesting responses to my initial foray into this question; I shall attempt to deal with all in turn. In re: JDH at 131,
It is easy to come up with a natural model for simple stimulus and response. I believe this is part of the natural world. But God said, “Let us make man in our image.” Man has a mind capable of going beyond stimulus and response. Man is able to make arbitrary decisions not based stimulus and response, but by weighing two abstract ideas. This type of decisions by its very nature can not be an extension of stimulus, response.
I certainly agree with Plato that we do need a theory of what concepts are, and that adequately distinguishes concepts from objects. But I don't think that we need endorse Plato's own theory of concepts to do so. Now, it bears emphasis that naturalism and nominalism are quite different views -- one can be a nominalist without being a naturalist, but also one can be a naturalist without being a nominalist. I have a moderate commitment to naturalism and a weak commitment to nominalism. On my view, what it is to grasp a concept is pretty much just to have mastered a word, and to invent a new concept is to use an old word in a new way, and occasionally, to introduce a new word, along with guidelines for its use. Socrates and Euthyphro are arguing about the nature of piety, but the background of that discussion is that ancient Greek had different contexts for specifying the use of "piety" (eusebia). Euthyphro believes that he is in possession of the correct knowledge of piety -- he believes that he can correctly prioritize between the different uses. Most of the time, we don't notice the divergences between our uses; they are few and far between. Having learned the same language, we follow the same rules for using words. And I think that the concept pretty much just is the rules for using a word. (Note: I don't identify the concept with the word itself, but with the rules for using it.) In re: vjtorley @ 135:
Your account explains why the brain is likely to be good at pattern matching, especially in cases where this is conducive to survival. However, much of our reasoning is carried out at a higher level: that of critical evaluation – your own post being a perfect example. When we critically evaluate a hypothesis, or discuss the theoretical merits of one hypothesis as opposed to another, what is at issue is mot the pattern in Nature that needs to be explained, but the nature of a good explanation. (Consider the dispute as to whether the multiverse is a good hypothesis.)
Actually, I mostly agree with this, but with my own distinctive caveats. What animals do in representing their environments is different in kind from what we do. (At one level of analysis, anyway -- though differences of kind at one level of description can be differences in degree at another level.) That difference in kind is captured in the idea of normativity: that we not only have actions and beliefs but can evaluate our actions and beliefs. So the question is, is the fact of normativity consistent with naturalism? I believe it is, because I think that normativity pretty much just is language, culture, institutions -- in a word, sociality, or what Hegel called Spirit or Geist. There are enough manifestations of "proto-normativity" in the behavior of large-brained social animals (primates, elephants, cetaceans) that I don't see the emergence of normativity as a deal-breaker for naturalism, though I quite agree that normativity is the problem for naturalism -- even more so than consciousness. (If consciousness is "the hard problem," then normativity is "the really hard problem".) The reason I'm confident it can be solved is because of the ground-breaking work already done by John Dewey, Wilfrid Sellars and (esp.) Robert Brandom. In re: bornagain @ 139:
Well that puts you in quite the evidential dilemma doesn’t it KN?, you deny the reality of mind, and now, apparently in your denial of ‘humans as Turing machines’, you deny any basis in reality altogether as to where thoughts can possibly proceed from. Pray tell, just what is generating your thoughts if it is not your brain, which has more switches than all the computers on earth, or your mind which originated from the breath of God?
I think it's a mistake -- what Ryle called a "category mistake" -- to say that "the brain thinks". The brain does not think any more than the eye sees. It is I, the rational animal or embodied human person that I am, that thinks, and my brain plays a crucial role in how thinking happens -- just it is not the eyes that see, but that I see with my eyes (and contact lenses). I do not think that a disembodied brain in a vat would do much, if any, thinking at all -- certainly nothing that we would ordinarily call thinking. In re: StephenB @ 142: I agree with everything you say there. Not that I'm surprised at that; I actually think that Scholastic realism and pragmatism are closely aligned. The important thing is to reject the solipsistic starting-point for epistemology; the ego-centric predicament is a trap. I suspect that the main thing we really disagree about, philosophically, is whether the intellect is natural. Kantian Naturalist
Your references to 1 science are fascinating. I haven't heard that particular argument before. I'm also not sure I entirely understand what you mean. When I read scientific journals, I often find conflicting view points there. A point, counter-point is a common feature within academic journals, comparing and contrasting viewpoints on a given topic. So disagreement within the scientific community with at least two predominant opinions is very common. However, if I canvassed scientific literature across all disciplines, counting each variant, however minor, of scientific theory as a separate competing version of science, than in the end I would have many, many more than 3000 views on science. When you say there is 1 science, you are saying 1 is true (the real story) and the remainder stem from the error or bias in measuring, evaluating, and defining the world around us. If one of these religions is true, and thus all 3000 (or however many) variants of that are some derivative (be they partially true or completely untrue) stemming from human perceptions, biases, or errors, is that not similar to the 1 science. What distinction are you drawing between these? ecs2
Mung re. preterism; no, no, no - Old Testament to Christ, with no need to figure in post 33 AD - last days which have their own if known. STILL - OT to Christ - if known - the vehicle to the most rational basis for Theism, not just Jesus. Still the most Functional, Specified, Complex Information in the universe we are aware of and having no need for a search extending to multiverses. alan
Graham2 @ 150: "we would have ended up with the periodic table, regardless of our background, because there is only 1 such table" Yes, *if* we ended up with the periodic table, it would have been the same as the one we have now, *BUT* you overlook the point that Steve Gann and I are making, which is that if it weren't for Christianity, the human race might never have discovered the periodic table at all. The modern scientific enterprise which discovered it arose in a Christian culture, not a Hindu or Chinese or Mayan or even Islamic one. And that Christian culture believed in a "disembodied intelligence" called God. The question that you don't want to ask -- because it upsets your comfortable secularist world view -- is whether belief in a "disembodied intelligence" who creates the laws of nature was necessary in order for modern science to come into being at all. Serious historians of science wrestle with this question. It appears you haven't read any of them. You also wrote, in 154: "That Science challenges religion is obvious, I would have thought. See Evolution." No, it's not obvious. It was "obvious" to the vulgar middle-class daily newspaper readers in the Anglo-Saxon world from maybe about 1850 to about 1950, since they were fed an ignorant version of the history of science based on misinformation about Darwin, Galileo, etc. But since the 1930s at least science historiography is greatly improved, and very few historians of science hold seriously to the "warfare" thesis any longer. Of course, in many Anglo-Saxon philosophy departments, you still have a predominance of Brit-spawned analytic philosophy, and a programmatic hatred of religion and worship of science that dates back to Ayer's *Language, Truth, and Logic*. But the historians understand the real score far better than the philosophers, because the historians have actually read the relevant historical texts. The analytic philosophers are too busy bowing and scraping and bestowing osculatory gestures upon the posteriors of scientists to take the time to read any of those texts. "Evolution" per se does not challenge religion; many of Darwin's early supporters were Anglican clerics, for example. And Michael Behe is an evolutionist and devout Roman Catholic, to name just one of millions of people like that. Certain *interpretations* of evolution challenge certain *versions* of religion, but that is not "Science" (with a capital S) versus "Religion" (with a capital R). The "warfare thesis" you are endorsing is simply untenable in modern discussions. No serious thinker holds to it any more. Your thought is decades out of date. Timaeus
ecs2: I believe there are a number of religious denominations... Thats what I mean by 3000 gods. Is Genesis literal or not ? Pretty basic stuff, but the religious just dont seem to be able to make up their minds. I presume that the denizens of this blog believe in creation, no, thats what this site is devoted to, ridding the world of Evolution. Graham2
G2 - Can we pull that string a little further? What about evolution challenges religion? I know several proponents of theistic evolution and I believe there are a number of religious denominations, including Catholicism, which have expressed they do not see conflict between evolution and religion. What is the specific conflict between religion and evolution? ecs2
SH: Belief in atheistical, scientism-based evolutionary materialist views as strong as we are talking of is closely tied to confident assertions, which are often expressed -- whether adequately warranted is another issue -- as knowledge claims. KF kairosfocus
EC: Not if your start-point is living encounter with God, individually or as community. Through such living encounters I have no doubt that my mom is no zombie automaton for instance. Part of the rise of widespread skepticism, is that it tends to suppress the most direct reason to believe in God of all, encounter -- even in cases where such leads to life transforming experiences, which has been so for millions. Quite literally. For instance, apart from such encounter for my mom and myself some 40 years ago, I would simply not be alive. And such encounter, in the end is at least as convincing as any experience of the world based knowledge claim can be. This, BTW, is one reason why there are a lot of people who look at the sort of debates that go on on the Internet and shake their heads. To such, the problem is not intellectual difficulties but willful shutting the eye and ear to an overwhelming cataract of evidence all around us. KF kairosfocus
Your definition:
Strong atheism is the belief that no god or gods exist at all.
(my emphasis) Followed by:
Strong atheism is defined as the assertion that no god or gods exist whatsoever.
and:
Strong atheism is a sweeping, categorical assertion that something does not exist.
Such assertions are tantamount to a claim that (s)he knows that there are no gods. However, "I know there are no gods" is not the same as "I believe there are no gods". You seem to have accidentally dropped the original definition in favor of statements which are far more difficult to support and easily refuted. There should be a name for such accidents. Fortunately, you managed to revert to the original definition when you concluded that you had defeated strong atheism rather than one particularly arrogant version of it. (cue obvious jokes) Also I think you may have accidentally erred on the weak atheist's view. It's not that (s)he knows there is no evidence for gods, merely that no evidence has been presented to him/her which (s)he finds sufficiently convincing. Most of the evidences in your list strike me as evidence that people believe in gods and are prepared to jump through hoops to justify that - not that the gods themselves are real. steveh
ecs2: 3000 gods (or whatever). Why so many ? If the validity of 1 was obvious, why a 2nd, 3rd etc ? The point of only 1 Science is that any attempt to establish a 2nd Science is immediately weeded out by testing/evidence. Eg: cold fusion died because it didnt stand up to scrutiny, so we are back to 1 Science. But its not possible to test the validity of gods. If you believe the Polynesian Octopus god created all life on earth, how is this any different to believing any other god did it ? There is no evidence available to distinguish them. That Science challenges religion is obvious, I would have thought. See Evolution. Regarding the majesty of the cosmos. Yes, I feel it too, but why is it necessary to attribute it to god ? Maybe its something we generate internally ? Graham2
G2 - the point about 3000 Gods seems significant to you. I'm not at all sure I follow. Are you implying that none could be true because there are multiple? How does that follow logically? I also don't really understand your point about science drawing religion into question? What are you attempting to establish there? Science is the systematic approaching to establishing knowledge about the world around us. True, science has made progress in understanding the world around us. [I'm not sure how 'success' can be gauged in this context. In 1900 science was succesful because they knew more than 1800, same in 1900, same in 2000 vs 1900, and will be true in 2100 vs 2000. How is success defined in that context? Gaining knowledge over the passage of time, explaining some benchmark percentage of the world around us (how would we measure that), other?] Are you implying scientific principles somehow contradict or draw the existence of God into question? You'll have to back that up, because I have quite the opposite view. From the majesty of the cosmos to the complexity of the tiniest cell to the order of nature, in my view science is a testament to God. Do you disagree? Finally, I believe agnosticism is the default starting point for any inquiry - I'm not sure whether there is a God or not so therefore I will considering any evidence objectively. Neither theism or atheism are default positions of not believing anything - both have associated presuppositions and assumptions. ecs2
Therefore we regard the message of the prophets as confirmed beyond doubt, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a lamp that is shining in a gloomy place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.
Sounds too much like preterism for my tastes. Mung
@Kairosfocus
Reppert: “ . . . let us suppose that brain state A, which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [[But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [[so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.”
This analysis is completely crushing for the idea that a brain can think. I do not see that this is anything other than totally convincing. Physicalism, materialism, naturalism, emergentism or whatever you want to call it, is now dead. Good riddance! Matter cannot think. Period. If there is still any doubt left I would like to hear about it. Thank you very much Kairofocus! Box
Steve: The history of Science is interesting, but not greatly relevant to its current status. Eg: we would have ended up with the periodic table, regardless of our background, because there is only 1 such table. How could we end up with anything else ? Martians (if they exist) also have the identical table. It cant be any other way. If all humanity were erased, and we started evolving again (or were created again, I dont care), we would end up with the same periodic table. It may be printed differently, but it would be identical because it cannot be any other way. If our cultural history is pagan, devout or whatever, we would still end up with the identical periodic table. Ditto for all the rest of Science (QM included). However, there are about 3000 gods. If we all started again, we would end up with a (different) 3000 gods. Thats the point. Why only 1 Science, and 3000 gods ? This is the question you (and your ilk) should be asking yourselves. Lastly, you use the phrase 'atheism is true'. Thats not accurate, its like the old saw about not stamp collecting. Atheism is the starting (default) position of not believing anything. From there I will aquire beliefs if justified by the evidence. (Of course Im as capable as anyone else to hold simultaneous crazy ideas). Now, to violate 400 years of spectacularly succesful Science, the evidence has to be equally spectacular. Eg: NDE's dont cut it, relying on the testimony of someone whose brain is near death would be laughed out of court. Its like relying on the testimony of a drunkard. Similarly 'miracles'. Thats about as clear as I can be. Whether its mataphysical or epistimological, you tell me. Graham2
BIG QUESTION: Is this: "Therefore we regard the message of the prophets as confirmed beyond doubt, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a lamp that is shining in a gloomy place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts." - NOT the MOST rational basis for 1. theism in general, 2. Christianity in specific and 3. the actual directed by the Creator METHOD to know their is a God including what God tells us are the reasons (Why, What, Who, and the When) of what is? I say the MOST RATIONAL due to being far far less open to opinion as those evidences offered here are as indicated in the exchanges here. Precise and extensive fulfillment of prophecy can be determined rationally and is even said to be "Infallible Proof" due its shear power to provided to us effective cognitive surety. Exact fulfilled prophecy strongly proves (not just indicates) a Mind "beyond" space and time and one of infinite scope. Here at UD we talk about Functional Specified Complex Directed Information found here in the material world providing "evidence" of Intelligence - Mind - Design: SO - DOES the vast and exact extent of the prophetic execution provides, mathematically speaking, an even greater indication - even PROOF - i.e. NOT debatable? Can anyone do the math and provide a number indicating the amount of Functional Specified Complex Directed Information found in fulfilled prophecy? SO the ELEPHANT in this room is: New International Version (©1984) And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. New Living Translation (©2007) Because of that experience, we have even greater confidence in the message proclaimed by the prophets. You must pay close attention to what they wrote, for their words are like a lamp shining in a dark place--until the Day dawns, and Christ the Morning Star shines in your hearts. English Standard Version (©2001) And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, New American Standard Bible (©1995) So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009) So we have the prophetic word strongly confirmed. You will do well to pay attention to it, as to a lamp shining in a dismal place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. International Standard Version (©2012) Therefore we regard the message of the prophets as confirmed beyond doubt, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a lamp that is shining in a gloomy place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Paraphrasing: "I tell you things that will come to pass SO THAT you will KNOW" - alan
Graham2 is not interested in reasoning. re-read the op. :) Mung
Except ID: that's Science. Since there is only one science, that surely follows. Mung
Graham2: I have not been able to respond to you because of work, but I hope you see this. My point about the history of science was to get you to think about your claims concerning the history of science. Christian people were scientists. It was largely their work that created this methodology we call Modern science". Could other cultures have done so? Yes. But medieval and Renaissance Christianity actually did so. To understand science is, in part, to understand the theology that went into its development. But, you have still not done what has been asked of you (that I have seen, even though I did not read the last 40 posts). That is offer a positive case for your position. You cannot just say I am an atheist by default and its the theists job to prove everything. I think that is what you have done though. You cannot be an atheist in a vacuum of other ideas. If atheism is true THEN then you have to have and defend a metaphysical position (such as materialism) that results from the atheism. You have not done that. You also have to hold and defend an epistemological position which I have not seen you do. So I will get you started...."Hi my name is Graham2 and I am an atheist. Because of my atheism my metaphysical and epistemological positions are ____________, _________, ___________. And I think this way for these positive reasons __________, ___________, __________, _________." Now fill in the blanks please. Steve_Gann
I assume from the above that most of you agree that Quantum Mechanics is a display of the hand of god. So now its meaning of words: god, mathematical equations: god, QM: god. Your world is saturated with god. Except ID: thats Science. Graham2
LarTanner said: "... a book I personally consider among the most wicked ever devised and interpreted." Please enlighten me. What does "wicked" mean in the above statement? William J Murray
Folks: I take a different view on all of this, I suppose, because I grew up in the era in which Freudianism and Marxism were in their hey-day, though about to wante dramatically. Freudians routinely dismissed critics because of their strict potty training or the like, all with suitably fancy terminology about Oedipus complexes, if-ego-superego and whatnot. Oh yes, God was the blown up image of the father figure projected unto the sky. Sounded very impressive, especially when spoken with true believer fervour. Marxists were much into Bourgeois false consciousness driving reactionary forces, superstructures built on the underlying economic and dialectical materialist realities, and so they discounted the views of critics. What was never so clearly answered was, what happens wen one raises the issue of self-referentiality. Each of these evolutionary materialist systems has that same problem, and ends up in undermining the views of their own systems. of course, the in effect solution was to make a quiet exception for their views and those trhey agreed with. Hence the issue of selective hyperskepticism. So far as I can see there is not a dime's worth of difference with today's confident scientistim-laced evolutionary materialist positions. Here on is why, in a nutshell:
a: Evolutionary materialism argues that the cosmos is the product of chance interactions of matter and energy, within the constraint of the laws of nature; from hydrogen to humans by undirected chance and necessity. b: Therefore, all phenomena in the universe, without residue, are determined by the working of purposeless laws of chance and/or mechanical necessity acting on material objects, under the direct or indirect control of happenstance initial circumstances. (This is physicalism. This view covers both the forms where (a) the mind and the brain are seen as one and the same thing, and those where (b) somehow mind emerges from and/or "supervenes" on brain, perhaps as a result of sophisticated and complex software looping. The key point, though is as already noted: physical causal closure -- the phenomena that play out across time, without residue, are in principle deducible or at least explainable up to various random statistical distributions and/or mechanical laws, from prior physical states. Such physical causal closure, clearly, implicitly discounts or even dismisses the causal effect of concept formation and reasoning then responsibly deciding, in favour of specifically physical interactions in the brain-body control loop; indeed, some mock the idea of -- in their view -- an "obviously" imaginary "ghost" in the meat-machine. [[There is also some evidence from simulation exercises, that accuracy of even sensory perceptions may lose out to utilitarian but inaccurate ones in an evolutionary competition. "It works" does not warrant the inference to "it is true."] ) c: But human thought, clearly a phenomenon in the universe, must now fit into this meat-machine picture. So, we rapidly arrive at Crick's claim in his The Astonishing Hypothesis (1994): what we subjectively experience as "thoughts," "reasoning" and "conclusions" can only be understood materialistically as the unintended by-products of the blind natural forces which cause and control the electro-chemical events going on in neural networks in our brains that (as the Smith Model illustrates) serve as cybernetic controllers for our bodies. d: These underlying driving forces are viewed as being ultimately physical, but are taken to be partly mediated through a complex pattern of genetic inheritance shaped by forces of selection [["nature"] and psycho-social conditioning [["nurture"], within the framework of human culture [[i.e. socio-cultural conditioning and resulting/associated relativism]. And, remember, the focal issue to such minds -- notice, this is a conceptual analysis made and believed by the materialists! -- is the physical causal chains in a control loop, not the internalised "mouth-noises" that may somehow sit on them and come along for the ride. (Save, insofar as such "mouth noises" somehow associate with or become embedded as physically instantiated signals or maybe codes in such a loop. [[How signals, languages and codes originate and function in systems in our observation of such origin -- i.e by design -- tends to be pushed to the back-burner and conveniently forgotten. So does the point that a signal or code takes its significance precisely from being an intelligently focused on, observed or chosen and significant alternative from a range of possibilities that then can guide decisive action.]) . . . . f: For further instance, we may take the favourite whipping-boy of materialists: religion. Notoriously, they often hold that belief in God is not merely cognitive, conceptual error, but delusion. Borderline lunacy, in short. But, if such a patent "delusion" is so utterly widespread, even among the highly educated, then it "must" -- by the principles of evolution -- somehow be adaptive to survival, whether in nature or in society. And so, this would be a major illustration of the unreliability of our conceptual reasoning ability, on the assumption of evolutionary materialism. g: Turning the materialist dismissal of theism around, evolutionary materialism itself would be in the same leaky boat. For, the sauce for the goose is notoriously just as good a sauce for the gander, too. h: That is, on its own premises [[and following Dawkins in A Devil's Chaplain, 2004, p. 46], the cause of the belief system of evolutionary materialism, "must" also be reducible to forces of blind chance and mechanical necessity that are sufficiently adaptive to spread this "meme" in populations of jumped- up apes from the savannahs of East Africa scrambling for survival in a Malthusian world of struggle for existence. Reppert brings the underlying point sharply home, in commenting on the "internalised mouth-noise signals riding on the physical cause-effect chain in a cybernetic loop" view:
. . . let us suppose that brain state A, which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [[But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [[so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.
That is why Philip Johnson so aptly said that an implicit exception had to be quietly taken for the materialist theorist. Until we see a really good and straightforward warrant for taking this issue off the table, evolutionary materialism is incoherent and unable to account for the fact of human knowledge, rationality and ability to access truth, never mind the challenge we face of falling into error And, remember, that includes having a very good reason for telling us why the mouth noises being made or symbolised are anything more than chance and necessity determining outcomes through genes, savannahs in East Africa etc, and more immediate psycho- socio- cultural conditioning. KF kairosfocus
Kantian Naturalist
And once you find yourself asking Cartesian questions, it’s hard to avoid Cartesian answers — I know that my mind is reliable because God guarantees that my mind is reliable when I use it properly — and then the attendant Cartesian-inspired difficulties, such as the mind-body problem, etc.
We do not know that our minds are reliable because "God guarantees it." That would be an act of faith. We know that our minds are reliable because the objects of our perception are common (or potentially common) to two or more individuals. That Descartes was not wise enough to understand this point is irrelevant. Our bodily feelings, emotions, and passions are private. Obviously, they cannot be shared precisely because they are subjective. They are distinct for each individual. I cannot take part in your private experience, and you cannot take part in mine. Our perceptual experiences, on the other hand, are public. When you, I, and others are sitting at the same table, observing wine glasses, plates, and silverware, we are perceptually apprehending the same objects and we both know it. This is what it means to say that we can reliably know the real world as it is. A spoon is really a spoon and we all apprehend it as such. Religious presuppositions have absolutely nothing to do with it. StephenB
LT claims: he (Jesus) is overshadowed by virtually everyone else with a speaking part. Interesting comment considering: Mark 4:39&41 He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, "Quiet! Be still!" Then the wind died down and it was completely calm.,,, They were terrified and asked each other, "Who is this? Even the wind and the waves obey him!" and,, John 11:43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!" The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.,,," OK LT, Jesus may not have been given to saying many words, but no one in history, with such reliable witness as Jesus has, has had more power over nature when he spoke: Moreover: "I know men, and I tell you that Jesus Christ is not a man. Superficial minds see a resemblance between Christ and the founders of empires and the gods of other religions. That resemblance does not exist. There is between Christianity and whatever other religions the distance of infinity." - Napoleon Bonaparte Moreover LT, you can go to Buddha's tomb! In fact the fact is that you can go to the graves of all the other founders of all the other major religions of the world and find the remains of a body, Burial places of founders of world religions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial_places_of_founders_of_world_religions Yet, as the Shroud of Turin stubbornly testifies despite many repeated attempts to refute the Shroud’s authenticity, if you go to the tomb of Jesus you will not find the remains of a body because Jesus has risen from the dead. Matthew 28:5-6 The angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. Condensed notes on The Authenticity of the Shroud of Turin https://docs.google.com/document/d/15IGs-5nupAmTdE5V-_uPjz25ViXbQKi9-TyhnLpaC9U/edit The following video clearly exposes the infamous 'Jesus Tomb video' as fraudulent: The Jesus Tomb Unmasked - video http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=79FBAC16BD4A15DB Bottom line: when the math is done correctly, probabilities that might be cited in evidence for the Talpiot tomb being the final resting place of the New Testament Jesus are not very impressive and would not even achieve a minimal level of significance as gauged by conventional statistical theory. http://www.designinference.com/documents/2007.07.Jesus_Tomb_Math.pdf bornagain77
The relationship between matter and thinking became more clear to me when I stumbled upon the ‘Chinese Room Thought Experiment’ (CRTE) by John Saerle. Searle argues that without understanding (or intentionality), we cannot describe what the computer is doing as "thinking". But not only does CRTE show us that computers cannot think, it also shows us, in my opinion, that matter cannot think. I see a perfect analogy: just like in CRTE there is no conversation (only the false perception of a conversation), there can only arise the false perception of thinking from matter. Box
KN, you state: "So what? I never indicated that I thought we were Turing machines." Well that puts you in quite the evidential dilemma doesn't it KN?, you deny the reality of mind, and now, apparently in your denial of 'humans as Turing machines', you deny any basis in reality altogether as to where thoughts can possibly proceed from. Pray tell, just what is generating your thoughts if it is not your brain, which has more switches than all the computers on earth, or your mind which originated from the breath of God? bornagain77
JDH@128,
So I rightly state that under your assumptions, the conclusions of your brain have no special place in the realm of evidence.
I think this is correct. A person's conclusions may very well be incorrect or inaccurate. Yes. We agree. Because individual conclusions have no special place in the realm of evidence, WJM's evidence for God items 1,2,3,4,and 6 must be looked at skeptically. I understand you think I have made a religious choice to think atheism is more likely correct than any theism. I don't hope to convince you otherwise. All I have is my experience and my story to recommend how I came to hold the views I do. I was born into a Jewish home and trained as a medievalist. In both regards I have discovered the love of Christ, as you call it. That love often finds scriptural expression in John, a book I personally consider among the most wicked ever devised and interpreted. Although your closing message is distastefully arrogant--as if "the Love of Christ" were the only place one could go if one concluded that an omniscient God existed (or Flew's deistic God)--you may be interested to know that my personal opinion of Jesus is he is one of the duller characters in literature. Besides being almost entirely derivative, he is overshadowed by virtually everyone else with a speaking part. If I were to admire a religious figure, I would certainly turn to someone like the Buddha as being superior in life and wisdom.
LarTanner
The Argument From Reason – resource page
BA77, thanks for this link and the one to Wigner! Mung
Hey kf, I think you have an apostrophe out of place on your web page. :) "A Basic Philosophers’ Toolkit" Perhaps rename to: "A Basic Philosophy Toolkit" Or if you're into alliteration: Finding A Foundation for Philosophers Philosophical Foundations for Future Philosophers Philosophical Foundations for Former Philistines Mung
Hi William J. Murray, I'd just like to thank you for an excellent first post. There's a lot of food for thought here, and I very much enjoyed reading your argument for the rationality of theism. Kantian Naturalist, Your account explains why the brain is likely to be good at pattern matching, especially in cases where this is conducive to survival. However, much of our reasoning is carried out at a higher level: that of critical evaluation - your own post being a perfect example. When we critically evaluate a hypothesis, or discuss the theoretical merits of one hypothesis as opposed to another, what is at issue is mot the pattern in Nature that needs to be explained, but the nature of a good explanation. (Consider the dispute as to whether the multiverse is a good hypothesis.) Again, when we discuss the merits of competing normative theories - e.g. different theories of morality - we are not trying to match patterns. What is at stake is something deeper: what criteria does an adequate ethical theory need to satisfy? It is these critical-evaluative questions which a naturalistic account of mind leaves unexplained. On a naturalistic account, there seems to be no good reason why we should be capable of addressing such issues, let alone arriving at a good answer. vjtorley
Graham2, when confronted with the obvious absurdity of his assertion that there is one and only one science, retorts that there is but one and only one science text. And then backs that up with a philosophical argument. Mung
KN, When one defines "rational thought" as "my thoughts and assertions being about the world", and AS "just what happens in a natural cognitive system", then one has equivocated "rational thought" to the point of meaninglessness. It has no distinction from any thoughts and assertions anyone has; everything we say and think is by definition "rational". If brains by nature "reliably detect real patterns in the world", and all such thoughts and assertions and conclusions are rational, then both the atheistic materialist and the kantian naturalist and the spiritual theist have rationally detected real patterns and have come to equally rational conclusions from them. Thus, you are arguing for no significant reason here. Surely you're not going to say that I'm wrong? Since we have equal natural pattern recognition and reasoning machines running our system, by what means will you argue otherwise? You have nothing to appeal to other than that which you have equivocated into meaninglessness. You cannot claim that the lengths marked on my ruler are wrong by comparing it to the lengths on your ruler; what prevents your ruler from being wrong as well? Without assuming an objective arbiter of ruler lengths, there is no resolution to your self-referential problem. Such sophistry isn't an argument; it's the abandonment of argument in favor of positioning oneself as "beyond" the argument and "above" such quaint and archaic concepts as right and wrong, true and false, rational and irrational, and natural and designed. That you make your arguments here as if they matter, and as if your "natural reasoning" is somehow producing more truthful assertions or conclusions than anyone else's demonstrates your incapacity to live as if what you promulgate here is true. IOW, you argue as if what you are arguing for is not really true; you argue as if what you are arguing against is actually the case. Which is the case for most who do not begin with primacy of mind as fundamental. Caused minds offer only caused thoughts and conclusions and caused sensations about the validity of those conclusions; IOW, there is nothing in your philosophy that differentiates your text here as more than the barking of a dog that has been also caused to think it has said something wise and meaningful. William J Murray
So what? I never indicated that I thought we were Turing machines. And thinking that we are not Turing machines says nothing at all about the deep metaphysics of mind, at least not without several other assumptions, each of which would be need to be articulated and examined. In any event, I only popped in to give a brief overview of why a naturalist who knows a great deal about cognitive neuroscience and philosophy of language can have every reason to believe that Darwin and Haldane are mistaken. Kantian Naturalist
But KT@127 there is more than a quantitative gap between man and the cat. The cat does not plan for future abstract events in the abstract world of future time. This is why no animal society ( although it may contain many complex relationships ) results in an economy of stocks and bonds, a system of educational institutions, a development of a culture of art and literature, anything that goes beyond survival. It is easy to come up with a natural model for simple stimulus and response. I believe this is part of the natural world. But God said, "Let us make man in our image." Man has a mind capable of going beyond stimulus and response. Man is able to make arbitrary decisions not based stimulus and response, but by weighing two abstract ideas. This type of decisions by its very nature can not be an extension of stimulus, response. Now I fully admit man, who has a physical body, is not completely free from the effect of the natural. Lack of sleep makes it harder for me to express the activity of the immaterial mind in my body. But it does not change the nature of abstract thought. An argument between Socrates and Euthyphro about piety does not come from a natural basis. It is an argument that completely takes place in the abstract world of ideas. By its very nature, the overwhelming evidence is that this type of argument has qualities to it that exclude it from the realm of what is purely the result of the natural. This is not a mere quantitive difference as your theory purports. Abstract thinking can never be generated by stimulus and response because of the demands of arbitrary decisions which actually generate functionally specified information ex nihilo. I thank you for your carefully selected words, but I must completely disagree with your conclusion. JDH
Two more quotations on matter and intelligence: "... it is as impossible to conceive that ever pure incogitative matter should produce a thinking intelligent Being, as that nothing should of itself produce Matter.", John Locke, Essay Concerning Human Understanding(1690) IV, x, 10 “It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain, I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.", Haldane [1927] 1932. ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.] - Personally I feel drawn to Locke's position. I see nothing in matter that resembles thinking. Matter is simply not in the 'thinking business', because atoms are occupied with other activities. Box
KN, can you resolve this dilemma of evidence facing the materialist? Alan’s brain tells his mind, “Don’t you blow it.” Listen up! (Even though it’s inchoate.) “My claim’s neat and clean. I’m a Turing Machine!” … ‘Tis somewhat curious how he could know it. Are Humans merely Turing Machines? Alan Turing extended Godel’s incompleteness to material computers, as is illustrated in this following video: Alan Turing & Kurt Godel – Incompleteness Theorem and Human Intuition – video http://www.metacafe.com/w/8516356 And it is now found that,,, Human brain has more switches than all computers on Earth – November 2010 Excerpt: They found that the brain’s complexity is beyond anything they’d imagined, almost to the point of being beyond belief, says Stephen Smith, a professor of molecular and cellular physiology and senior author of the paper describing the study: …One synapse, by itself, is more like a microprocessor–with both memory-storage and information-processing elements–than a mere on/off switch. In fact, one synapse may contain on the order of 1,000 molecular-scale switches. A single human brain has more switches than all the computers and routers and Internet connections on Earth. http://news.cnet.com/8301-27083_3-20023112-247.html Yet supercomputers with many switches have a huge problem dissipating heat,,, Supercomputer architecture Excerpt: Throughout the decades, the management of heat density has remained a key issue for most centralized supercomputers.[4][5][6] The large amount of heat generated by a system may also have other effects, such as reducing the lifetime of other system components.[7] There have been diverse approaches to heat management, from pumping Fluorinert through the system, to a hybrid liquid-air cooling system or air cooling with normal air conditioning temperatures. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercomputer_architecture But the brain, though having as many switches as all the computers on earth, does not have such a problem dissipating heat,,, Appraising the brain’s energy budget: Excerpt: In the average adult human, the brain represents about 2% of the body weight. Remarkably, despite its relatively small size, the brain accounts for about 20% of the oxygen and, hence, calories consumed by the body. This high rate of metabolism is remarkably constant despite widely varying mental and motoric activity. The metabolic activity of the brain is remarkably constant over time. http://www.pnas.org/content/99/16/10237.full THE EFFECT OF MENTAL ARITHMETIC ON CEREBRAL CIRCULATION AND METABOLISM Excerpt: Although Lennox considered the performance of mental arithmetic as “mental work”, it is not immediately apparent what the nature of that work in the physical sense might be if, indeed, there be any. If no work or energy transformation is involved in the process of thought, then it is not surprising that cerebral oxygen consumption is unaltered during mental arithmetic. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC438861/pdf/jcinvest00624-0127.pdf Does Thinking Really Hard Burn More Calories? – By Ferris Jabr – July 2012 Excerpt: So a typical adult human brain runs on around 12 watts—a fifth of the power required by a standard 60 watt lightbulb. Compared with most other organs, the brain is greedy; pitted against man-made electronics, it is astoundingly efficient. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=thinking-hard-calories Moreover, the heat generated by computers is primarily caused by the erasure of information from the computer,,, Landauer’s principle Of Note: “any logically irreversible manipulation of information, such as the erasure of a bit or the merging of two computation paths, must be accompanied by a corresponding entropy increase ,,, Specifically, each bit of lost information will lead to the release of an (specific) amount (at least kT ln 2) of heat.,,, Landauer’s Principle has also been used as the foundation for a new theory of dark energy, proposed by Gough (2008). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landauer%27s_principle Thus the brain is either operating on reversible computation principles no computer can come close to emulating (Charles Bennett), or, as is much more likely, the brain is not erasing information from its memory as material computers are required to do, because our memories are stored on a ‘spiritual’ level rather than on a material level,,, A Reply to Shermer Medical Evidence for NDEs (Near Death Experiences) – Pim van Lommel Excerpt: For decades, extensive research has been done to localize memories (information) inside the brain, so far without success.,,,,So we need a functioning brain to receive our consciousness into our waking consciousness. And as soon as the function of brain has been lost, like in clinical death or in brain death, with iso-electricity on the EEG, memories and consciousness do still exist, but the reception ability is lost. People can experience their consciousness outside their body, with the possibility of perception out and above their body, with identity, and with heightened awareness, attention, well-structured thought processes, memories and emotions. And they also can experience their consciousness in a dimension where past, present and future exist at the same moment, without time and space, and can be experienced as soon as attention has been directed to it (life review and preview), and even sometimes they come in contact with the “fields of consciousness” of deceased relatives. And later they can experience their conscious return into their body. http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/Research/vonlommel_skeptic_response.htm To support this view that ‘memory/information’ is not stored in the brain but on a higher 'spiritual' level, one of the most common features of extremely deep near death experiences is the ‘life review’ where every minute detail of a person’s life is reviewed: Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4200200/ Thus, humans are not merely Turing Machines! bornagain77
LT@123 It's not that I demand that a conclusion from a naturally constructed brain to be 100% incorrect, it's just that it the conclusions of that natural mind can't be trusted. This is what I mean by a solid basis. You have no reason to believe your answers from a natural mind are 100% correct, I have no reason to believe that they are 100% incorrect. So I rightly state that under your assumptions, the conclusions of your brain have no special place in the realm of evidence. It seems you have only supported my claims and I await your admitting that you have very little credible evidence on your side and that it is a religious choice you use to believe materialism. After you admit this we can start correctly weighing the evidence, correctly using Occam's razor, and I believe, if you are intellectually honest you will believe as Antony Flew concluded - in an omniscient God. Hopefully from that point we can proceed to the discovery of the Love of Christ. JDH
I'm going to try to avoid getting mired in this conversation, because I don't think conversations like this are at all productive, but I suffer from weakness of will. One often hears things like this:
Do you not see that since you claim a) no mind beyond that which is built up by evolution using natural law – b) you have no basis to believe that the conclusions made by a naturally constructed mind match truth?
This is basically the same worry that Descartes poses in the first Meditation: if my cognitive capacities are the result of chance and necessity, then I have no reason to believe they are reliable. And once you find yourself asking Cartesian questions, it's hard to avoid Cartesian answers -- I know that my mind is reliable because God guarantees that my mind is reliable when I use it properly -- and then the attendant Cartesian-inspired difficulties, such as the mind-body problem, etc. But it is not terribly difficult to free oneself entirely from the whole Cartesian problematic which has shaped modern epistemology, and when that is done, the problem of naturalism can be looked at afresh. When a cat stalks a bird, we have no problem with the thought that the cat's brain is reliably detecting patterns of movement, shape, etc. which are causally grounded in the bird's activity. Why, then, should we think that in our case, there's any hint of a 'gap' between thought and the world? If there's no 'gap' for cats (or whatever), why would be one for us? Such considerations could be developed extensively in both breadth and depth -- the point is, a naturalist has every reason to believe that her brain, as a product of variation and selection, reliably detects real patterns and that, as a result, her judgments refer to the world (if they are true) or do not (if they are false). I do not think it makes any sense to suppose that my brain is reliably detecting real patterns in the world, but that none of my rational judgments refer to the world. (What gives that supposition the aura of plausibility is the crypto-dualism on which it depends.) In other words, rational thought -- my thoughts and assertions being about the world, referring to it, getting it right (or wrong) -- is just what happens in a natural cognitive system that includes (but of course is not limited to) a complex brain that has been 'programmed' with language and culture, and brains reliably detect real patterns in the world because that's just what brains do in order to mediate between sensory input and motor output. Kantian Naturalist
PS: I have also above put forth skeletal inductive, inference to best explanation forms of classic arguments to God. I think the cumulative metaphysical commitments to reject the "rope" intertwined from these, carries a stiff metaphysical commitments price, e.g. by nature of what a candidate necessary being is, rejection of God -- by definition such a being -- entails the commitment that God is impossible, which I suspect is going to be hard to sustain post the free will defense in the teeth of the problem of evils, multiplied by the Boethius point on needing to also justify the objectivity of good, thence morals. Kindly explain what price you are willing to pay, why. kairosfocus
LarTanner, are you trying to reason with your material brain? But why should your brain state care if its brain state is more true than anyone else's particular brain state and what makes you think that by the force of reason alone you can change anyone else's brain state? The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences - Eugene Wigner - 1960 Excerpt: certainly it is hard to believe that our reasoning power was brought, by Darwin's process of natural selection, to the perfection which it seems to possess.,,, http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDrama/reading/Wigner.html “One absolutely central inconsistency ruins [the popular scientific philosophy]. The whole picture professes to depend on inferences from observed facts. Unless inference is valid, the whole picture disappears… unless Reason is an absolute, all is in ruins. Yet those who ask me to believe this world picture also ask me to believe that Reason is simply the unforeseen and unintended by-product of mindless matter at one stage of its endless and aimless becoming. Here is flat contradiction. They ask me at the same moment to accept a conclusion and to discredit the only testimony on which that conclusion can be based.” —C.S. Lewis, Is Theology Poetry (aka the Argument from Reason) C.S. Lewis, Reason, and Naturalism: An Interview with Dr. Jay Richards - audio http://www.idthefuture.com/2012/12/cs_lewis_reason_and_naturalism.html The Argument From Reason - resource page http://www.reasonsforgod.org/the-argument-from-reason/ “If you do not assume the law of non-contradiction, you have nothing to argue about. If you do not assume the principles of sound reason, you have nothing to argue with. If you do not assume libertarian free will, you have no one to argue against. If you do not assume morality to be an objective commodity, you have no reason to argue in the first place.” - William J Murray "But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey’s mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin - Letter To William Graham - July 3, 1881 Self-Refuting Belief Systems - Cornelius Hunter - September 2012 Excerpt: Relativism states that there are no absolute truths, but if true then that statement is an absolute truth. Likewise the statement that evolution is a fact, if true, means that we cannot know evolution to be a fact. Why? Because with evolution our minds are nothing more than molecules in motion—an accidental biochemistry experiment which has yielded a set of chemicals in a certain configuration. This leads to what Darwin called “the horrid doubt”: "But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey’s mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind." Darwin to Graham, William - 3 July 1881 Today evolutionists agree that while a random collection of chemicals doesn’t know anything, nonetheless over long time periods and under the action of natural selection, phenomena which we refer to as knowledge, will and consciousness will spontaneously emerge. And how do we know this? Because evolution occurred and we know that it occurred. Therefore evolution must have created the phenomena of knowledge. The proof is left to the student. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2012/09/self-refuting-belief-systems.html “It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain, I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter”. J. B. S. Haldane ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. bornagain77
@LarTanner 123 “But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey’s mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?” Darwin, July 3, 1881 Box
JDH, Your argument #1 on fallible minds is not so strong. If you accept the premise that our minds are natural products/byproducts, and if you accept that our cognitive abilities are limited, why does it then follow that any conclusion anyone should reach is 100% incorrect? Don't you think that science and scientific methods, as an aid to both our senses and cognitive abilities, can help us to make conclusions about the world that are consistent, if nothing else? LarTanner
LT: We are familiar with the IEP, which is a good phil reference, sometimes better than SEP as more concisely to the point. It summarised arguments for atheism as follows:
Arguments for the non-existence of God are deductive or inductive. Deductive arguments for the non-existence of God are either single or multiple property disproofs that allege that there are logical or conceptual problems with one or several properties that are essential to any being worthy of the title “God.” Inductive arguments typically present empirical evidence that is employed to argue that God’s existence is improbable or unreasonable. Briefly stated, the main arguments are: God’s non-existence is analogous to the non-existence of Santa Claus. The existence of widespread human and non-human suffering is incompatible with an all powerful, all knowing, all good being. Discoveries about the origins and nature of the universe, and about the evolution of life on Earth make the God hypothesis an unlikely explanation. Widespread non-belief and the lack of compelling evidence show that a God who seeks belief in humans does not exist. Broad considerations from science that support naturalism, or the view that all and only physical entities and causes exist, have also led many to the atheism conclusion.
The short responses are obvious. Post Plantinga, the deductive argument on evils is dead, and all such arguments face the problem highlighted ever since by Boethius: whence good, if there is no God. The evidence of the natural world, with mounting force is that the observed cosmos is designed, is finitely old, and was designed to host C-chemistry, cell based life. While many are determined atheists, the overall consensus of humanity is not in their favour. And, in a context of the Christian faith, the life, death, resurrection of Jesus with the 500 witnesses and the prophecies leading to the miraculous spreading of the church against all odds, and to the transformation of life of millions of people and entire communities is considerable direct evidence of dealings with God. Evidence that, if it is all delusional, tosses us back to the fundamental problem of evolutionary materialist atheism. Namely, it is self referentially incoherent when it has to address the grounding of the knowing, reasoning mind. I think we can proceed on the issues, especially if you want the IEP summary to speak for you. KF kairosfocus
I suspect I am the atypical person that follows such a forum. I am a 63 year old retired avid cyclist currently working my way through an injury and struggling to find things of interest to keep busy. I think most secular folks claim to be atheist because its vogue and not through intellectual considerations. I hear people say "I just don't buy it". I think this speaks to the point that it's not a debate about the evidence for "no god" but rather a debate about the evidence for god. garoskilly
@Graham2: Not sure if you missed my post at #68 because of the volume of incoming posts, non the less, I'm still curious as to why you believe human experience (such as NDE's, and testimonials) to be hopeless when it comes to evidence? KRock
Timaeus, thanks for the Jaki, Hooykaas, Collingwood reference, I plugged it into google and found a book that looks well worth reading: The Blackwell Companion to Science and Christianity http://books.google.com/books?id=qqGRqJT4aNQC&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false bornagain77
Here are the questions I would like any materialist to answer. I ask these in good faith not understanding why you maintain your position against the prevailing evidence. I see your position as having several inherent flaws. By inherent flaw I mean that the problem is built into your faith assumptions and no amount of logic can remove it. So in logical order, 1. Do you not see that since you claim a) no mind beyond that which is built up by evolution using natural law - b) you have no basis to believe that the conclusions made by a naturally constructed mind match truth? 2. Do you not see that a) given the above fact that you have no solid basis for claiming the truth of your position -b) your claim of materialism as the right answer holds no special place? 3. Do you not see that a) by insisting on repeatable scientific evidence which can be repeated by you in a controlled experiment b) you exclude all evidence which would be under the control of an independent mind or God? 4. Do you not see that you believe materialism by faith assumption and in spite of the evidence not because of the evidence? Believe me, I do not ask these questions because I want to inflict pain or hurt. I am just truly flabbergasted that you do not see 1-4. If "in spite of the evidence" you choose to still believe materialism, then fine. But at least be honest enough to claim your position by faith, and not by preponderance of the evidence. JDH
ecs2, I have to agree I admire the bravery that G2 has shown in trying to defend the indefensible, but now if he would only show as much bravery in following the evidence where it leads no matter what, instead of holding his a priori philosophical bias. ,,, Here is another atheist I admired for his bravery: Anthony Flew - The Honest Ex-Atheist - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbyTwmaJArU bornagain77
G2 I appreciate you presenting a contrarian view. It has been a lively discussion. What I have found most interesting however is what has been unsaid. You seem to have avoided some questions, especially where the accuracy of your points is questioned. What does it mean for you that some of your assumptions or assertions are demonstrably false? Do you question anything or look for answers or do you just push forward? I think this is what Mr. Murray is referring to by intellectual honesty - are you willing to examine the issues objectively, without preconceptions. ecs2
The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy, billed as "a peer-reviewed academic resource," presents a history and positive case for atheism in its article at http://www.iep.utm.edu/atheism/. LarTanner
T: One of the reasons I find Wiki's article on ID such a travesty, is that while advertising its vaunted NPOV, it does not provide the sort of balanced, accurate and fair overview that we could simply refer a G2 there, instead of to a clutch of books of multiple hundreds of pages apiece. That is a real disservice. And, I suspect that instead, through informal or formal sources he thought were giving him a good picture, G2 has been programmed with some talking points, perspectives, attitudes and expectations that are leading him off the deep end. In default of which, I suggest G2 should at least read the NWE introduction here before commenting again, and should read it knowing that it gives a more accurate and fair summary than something that sounds like the Wiki article. KF kairosfocus
Graham2 @ 90 said: "The Science we practice now doesnt invoke the supernatural in any way, we have grown up. If you dont agree, then can you provide an example ?" Apparently, you missed where I provided such examples in the O.P. From Near-death experience in survivors of cardiac arrest: a prospective study in the Netherlands, The Lancet, Volume 358, Issue 9298, Pages 2039 - 2045, 15 December 2001 :
With lack of evidence for any other theories for NDE, the thus far assumed, but never proven, concept that consciousness and memories are localised in the brain should be discussed. How could a clear consciousness outside one’s body be experienced at the moment that the brain no longer functions during a period of clinical death with flat EEG? Also, in cardiac arrest the EEG usually becomes flat in most cases within about 10 s from onset of syncope.29,30 Furthermore, blind people have described veridical perception during out-of-body experiences at the time of this xperience.31 NDE pushes at the limits of medical ideas about the range of human consciousness and the mind-brain relation. Another theory holds that NDE might be a changing state of consciousness (transcendence), in which identity, cognition, and emotion function independently from the unconscious body, but retain the possibility of non-sensory perception. Research should be concentrated on the effort to explain scientifically the occurrence and content of NDE. Research should be focused on certain specific elements of NDE, such as out-of-body experiences and other verifiable aspects. Finally, the theory and background of transcendence should be included as a part of an explanatory framework for these experiences.
It appears that the authors have invoked a transcendent consciousness that can operate and sense independent of the physical body as a potential explanation for the NDE phenomena in their research. The interesting thing about universally negative claims ("The Science we practice now doesnt invoke the supernatural in any way") is that it only takes one example to disprove it. You might beware of making such grandiose claims in the future, especially when they are apparently rooted in an ideological, dismissive certainty that blinds you to conclusive evidence to the contrary. BTW, the only reason I decided to disprove your universally negative claim, which was shifting the burden on your part, is because I used that very kind of evidence to support the case I made in the O.P. Perhaps you should have actually read and pursued the evidence I offered in the O.P. before making such an easily falsified assertion. Instead of simply resting on your ideological certainty about the scope of scientific research and publication, you might at least first have a look around - actually try to find scientific research that "invokes the supernatural in any way". In the age of google and the internet, ignorance of such information can only be willfully self-inflicted. William J Murray
PS: G2, have you done a good phil 101? I suggest here may help. Inference to best current empirically reliable explanation in the context of live, uncensored alternatives/schools of thought and the building of a cumulative case [think: rope not chain] -- an idealised courtroom is I gather actually a model that goes back to Bacon -- is also how a lot of how real world inductive reasoning in science etc works, forget that stuff on simplistic generalisation or superficial analogies. kairosfocus
Graham2 (88, 89): We have ancient Greek authors arguing that Zeus is not the cause of the thunder and that disease is not caused by evil spirits. They're from the 5th century B.C. So what we've learned in the past 400 years has nothing to do with that. Regarding the past 400 years, what you fail to perceive is that the reason scientists came to believe that the world is ruled by orderly laws in the first place is that science grew up in a Christian milieu and understood God as a cosmic lawgiver. Why should nature be orderly? Why isn't it a chaos, with one unexplained thing happening after another? And if there are laws, why are those laws accessible to human reason? All of these questions were asked and answered with reference to Christian theology, by Bacon, Descartes, Galileo, Kepler, Newton, Boyle, etc. This is now well-known to historians of science. You wrote to Steve Gann: "The Science we practice now doesnt invoke the supernatural in any way" Neither does ID. ID says that living things could not have obtained the structures and functions they have without the input of information. It isn't committed to saying that the information is input by supernatural means. The fact that you think it *is* so committed tells me that you aren't familiar with the claims of ID. Have you read Michael Denton's second book, *Nature's Destiny*? If you haven't, I would suggest that you withhold further criticism of ID until you have. There is a difference between saying (i) that there is a mind or intelligence responsible for certain features of nature, and (ii) that a divine being intervenes in the processes of nature. Until you grasp this distinction, you will confuse ID with creationism. And we weary of explaining this over and over again, to people who object to ID, based on hearsay, without taking the time to actually read ID books and articles and learn what ID people are arguing. If you are faking it based on secondhand knowledge, please stop wasting all our time here. Read Behe's books. Read Denton. Read *No Free Lunch* by Dembski. Read Meyer's *Signature in the Cell*. Come back with your objections only after you have carefully read these works. You won't be taken seriously here until your comments show familiarity with them. Timaeus
G2: do you understand the difference between experimental science and observational science? operational and origins/historical? Do you know what inference to best (current) explanation is? Do you understand the degrees of warrant that are applicable? And, do you understand that both Newton and Hoyle are still very current and applicable? Explain how -- so far, you are coming across as sophomoric at best. KF kairosfocus
@Graham2 Do you agree with William J Murray, that atheism is not rationally justifiable? If not, tell me where I go wrong: 1. There is no evidence against the existence of God. (In posting 51 Graham2 agrees with premise 1.) 2. There is at the very least some evidence in favor of the existence of God. (In posting 53 Graham2 agrees with premise 2) 3. Therefor it is more probable that God exists than that God does not exist. So atheism isn’t rationally justifiable. Box
Graham2 is just another clueless loser. He can't support his position so he HAZ to lash-out at ID with his ignorance. Nice job Graham, but do you really think that your ignorance is going to convince anyone? Joe
Corrected link: Why Quantum Theory Does Not Support Materialism – By Bruce L Gordon: http://www.4truth.net/fourtruthpbscience.aspx?pageid=8589952939 bornagain77
as to: 'Quantum mechanics. Yes, yes, yes, its weird. I know that. We all know that, but it seems to be pretty well established and agreed upon (it is often quoted as being a very good predictor of reality).' UHHH G2, Quantum mechanics is completely antagonistic to materialism.,, Perhaps that is why you find it so 'weird'? Why Quantum Theory Does Not Support Materialism - By Bruce L Gordon: Excerpt: Because quantum theory is thought to provide the bedrock for our scientific understanding of physical reality, it is to this theory that the materialist inevitably appeals in support of his worldview. But having fled to science in search of a safe haven for his doctrines, the materialist instead finds that quantum theory in fact dissolves and defeats his materialist understanding of the world. http://www.4truth.net/site/c.hiKXLbPNLrF/b.2904125/k.E94E/Why_Quantum_Theory_Does_Not_Support_Materialism.htm bornagain77
Axel @95: You seem to be saying that Quantum mechanics is magic. Is this correct ? Perhaps you could rephrase it in plain English (without the spittle). Andre @99: Is this the same 1 single science that come to two different conclusions on the effects of causes? You know unguided vs. guided. Designed vs. non-design….? Eh? Could you give a concrete example from some commonly accepted current Science ? KF: I made the claim that current Science, as applied in industry, etc, seems to be pretty solid, (my phrase was '1 Science'), and I gave a bunch of examples to illustrate this. Nothing you wrote seemed to address this. Please note I am referring to current Science. Hoyle, Newton, Aristotle are all interesting history, but I am referring to current Science. Also, I just know you are going to refer to Quantum mechanics. Yes, yes, yes, its weird. I know that. We all know that, but it seems to be pretty well established and agreed upon (it is often quoted as being a very good predictor of reality). And could you convert from cliche-ese to English ... In a context of seeing the implication as a context for inference to best explanation across comparative difficulties on worldview alternatives !!!!! Graham2
Well it looks like Graham2 is just another ignorant and cowardly equivocator. Hey Graham2- do you even know what the debate is all about? Your posts say that you don't have a clue. Joe
G2 as to: "Science is, in its entirety, materialistic and successful." REALLY? Wow! Then G2 what in blue blazes are we to do with a experimental result like the following in which the researchers, using free will, conscious observation, and a operation of logic, destroyed a material particle in one place and instantaneously teleported it to its entangled particle? Ions have been teleported successfully for the first time by two independent research groups Excerpt: In fact, copying isn't quite the right word for it. In order to reproduce the quantum state of one atom in a second atom, the original has to be destroyed. This is unavoidable - it is enforced by the laws of quantum mechanics, which stipulate that you can't 'clone' a quantum state. In principle, however, the 'copy' can be indistinguishable from the original (that was destroyed),,, http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/Issues/2004/October/beammeup.asp Atom takes a quantum leap - 2009 Excerpt: Ytterbium ions have been 'teleported' over a distance of a metre.,,, "What you're moving is information, not the actual atoms," says Chris Monroe, from the Joint Quantum Institute at the University of Maryland in College Park and an author of the paper. But as two particles of the same type differ only in their quantum states, the transfer of quantum information is equivalent to moving the first particle to the location of the second. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2171769/posts Researchers Succeed in Quantum Teleportation of Light Waves - April 2011 Excerpt: In this experiment, researchers in Australia and Japan were able to transfer quantum information from one place to another without having to physically move it. It was destroyed in one place and instantly resurrected in another, “alive” again and unchanged. This is a major advance, as previous teleportation experiments were either very slow or caused some information to be lost. http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2011-04/quantum-teleportation-breakthrough-could-lead-instantanous-computing Quantum Teleportation - IBM Research Page Excerpt: "it would destroy the original (photon) in the process,," http://researcher.ibm.com/view_project.php?id=2862 Note: The role of each conscious observer, and the choice(s) of each conscious observer in the experiment, and the specific operations of logic, used to achieve quantum teleportation are summarized on the following site: Quantum Teleportation - A summary Excerpt: Assume that Alice and Bob share an entangled qubit ab. That is, Alice has one half, a, and Bob has the other half, b. Let c denote the qubit Alice wishes to transmit to Bob. Alice applies a unitary operation on the qubits ac and measures (i.e. consciously observes) the result to obtain two classical bits. In this process, the two qubits are destroyed. Bob's qubit, b, now contains information about c; however, the information is somewhat randomized. More specifically, Bob's qubit b is in one of four states uniformly chosen at random and Bob cannot obtain any information about c from his qubit. Alice provides her two measured classical bits, which indicate which of the four states Bob possesses. Bob applies a unitary transformation which depends on the classical bits he obtains from Alice, transforming his qubit into an identical re-creation of the qubit c.,,, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_teleportation#A_summary summary of logical operations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_teleportation#The_result bornagain77
F/N 3: A skeletal outline of the arguments that G2 dismisses as "rubbish": -------- >> B. Cosmological: (NB: This appears out of the classical order, as IMHO it makes A far more clear if this is done, by distinguishing and rationalising "contingent" and "necessary" beings. This is an example of a cumulative argument.): 1. Some contingent beings exist. (E.g.: us, a tree or a fruit, an artifact, the planets and stars, etc. -- anything that might not have existed, i.e. is caused.) 2. Contingent beings do not exist by themselves – that is in part what “contingent” means - so they require a necessary being as their ultimate cause. 3. If any contingent being exists, then a necessary being exists. 4. Thus, there exists a necessary being, the ultimate cause of the existence of the many contingent beings in the cosmos. A. Ontological: 1. If God exists, his existence is necessary. (NB link to B.4 just above.) 2. If God does not exist, his existence is impossible. 3. Either God exists or he does not exist. 4. God’s existence is either necessary or impossible. 5. But, God’s existence is possible (i.e. not impossible). 6. So, God’s existence is necessary. C. Teleological/design: 1. Highly complex objects with intricate, interacting parts are produced by intelligent designers, at least so far as we can determine from cases where we do directly know the cause. 2. The universe (and/or a specific part of it[3]) is just such a highly complex object. 3. Probably, it is the result of intelligent design. 4. But, the scope/complexity of the universe is such that only God could be its designer. 5. Probably, there is a God. D. Moral: 1. People, in practice, invariably act as though there are binding moral obligations. (For instance, as C. S. Lewis points out, that is how we quarrel.) 2. Probably, such objective, binding moral obligations exist. 3. Probably, unless there is a God, there cannot be objectively binding moral obligations. 4. Probably, there is a God who is the author of the moral order of the universe. E. Religious experience: 1. If and only if God exists, can God reveal himself to us -- through direct encounters/revelations, and/or through miracles, and/or through indirect witness (such as the voice of conscience or the glories of creation, or the intellectual and moral incoherence of other views about ultimate reality), etc. 2. A great many people report that they have had just such experiences of/encounters with/discoveries about God; often sensing union with and/or the utter otherness of God. 3. Many of these are in the list of greatest minds and/or greatest lives in human history. 4. It is extremely unlikely that all of these people are lying, mistaken or deluded. 5. It is therefore highly probable that God exists, as the ground of such experiences. (This argument brings us back to Pascal’s wager.) These arguments are of valid -- or at least inductively strong -- forms, and they mutually reinforce like the strands and fibres in a rope[4], but objections can be made to at least some of their premises. However, such rejection comes at a price: Cosmological: major objections assert that the universe may be eternal, the result of an infinite chain of contingent beings and cause-effect links, and/or that the universe’s existence is a brute – inexplicable – fact. (The first runs head-on into the 2nd law of thermodynamics, which implies that the universe is running down so probably is not infinitely old; but more importantly, the above argument makes no assumptions about the age of the cosmos. The second main objection in effect rejects the principle of sufficient reason: if things happen, there is a good/adequate reason for it. Which alternative is more plausible/ “reason”-able?) Ontological: from premises # 4 & 5, God’s existence is only possible if it is necessary – inviting the objection that God’s existence is impossible, but this is in turn a very strong claim (and far harder to prove than to assert)! Design: Objections try to deny the link between the observed complexity of the universe or objects in it and the existence of an Intelligent Designer, aka God. Or, they may point to the gap between the Designer and the God people wish to worship. (The latter is largely irrelevant: teleological arguments do not set out as a rule, to prove ALL that we may wish to know about God, just to argue that the design in the cosmos implies a Designer. The former hinge on providing alternative explanations for complexity in the cosmos, in effect asserting that even very improbable complex systems, given enough time will happen by chance. But, for instance, the calculated odds that a living cell could arise by chance are estimated at ~ 1 in 10 ^ 40,000 – i.e. 1 followed by 40,000 zeroes, a fair number of pages worth. This is so close to impossible as makes no practical difference: it is not likely to have happened once in the whole known universe in any reasonable timeframe for its existence, usually judged at 10 – 15 billion years. Indeed, odds of 1 in 10 ^ 200 are generally regarded as effectively zero.) Moral: often people simply assert that there are no binding obligations, or claim that there is no set of universally accepted moral principles. Others seek to suggest ways in which moral obligations can exist in a non-theistic world; or else simply say that these obligations are yet another brute – i.e. inexplicable -- fact. (The common fact that relativists wish to assert binding moral principles themselves, such as “tolerance,” indicates that relativist claims are self-defeating, sometimes even hypocritical. Disagreement over principles needs not imply their non-existence, just that reasoning about morality has its pitfalls just like any other type of reasoning. Also, C S Lewis and others have highlighted that in fact when individuals and cultures speak of those they care about, they do assert a surprisingly consistent set of values. Evolutionary theories of morality run into difficulties explaining say, self-sacrificing behaviour, and may argue in a circle from “survival is good” to “good is survival.” Many moral obligations cut right across our instincts, to the point where our daily challenge is usually whether we should go with conscience or impulse. And, the “brute fact” claim is actually a major concession: “I cannot explain morality on the basis of my core beliefs, but I have to accept it as a fact.” If so, then why not accept a framework that can make good sense of morality?) Religious Experience: Some object that religious experiences are simply subjective perceptions: i.e. that they are not veridical. Others add that such experiences are not publicly checkable, i.e. that they lack objectivity. Further, it may be pointed out that different traditions have different, conflicting experiences. (But, to say some religious experiences are not veridical is one thing; to claim that ALL are only subjective and/or delusional is another -- especially given that some of those so indicted are central to the world’s intellectual and cultural history; e.g. Moses and his Law, Jesus of Nazareth, the Apostles and their experience of the resurrection of Christ, and a great many others, such as the great scientists Newton, Pascal and Maxwell. Further, just because experiences are mediated through our senses and consciousness does not imply that they are dubious, apart from specific reason to suspect delusion. Thirdly, if we insist on public tests for all experiences, then we face an infinite regress. And, it is more appropriate to observe that there are conflicting interpretations of the experiences rather than contradictory experiences as such; especially as regards union with God and/or of God’s utter otherness.) Thus, we see that there are no universally compelling theistic arguments, but that rejecting them all comes at a metaphysical price that may be steeper than one is willing to pay. >> -------- Let us see if G2 is willing to flesh out his dismissals, in light of up to date technical presentations and to show whether or not he is paying a stiff metaphysical price to do so. Yes, we know, we know, P => Q, NOT-Q so Not P, but what does asserting NOT-Q mean? (In a context of seeing the implication as a context for inference to best explanation across comparative difficulties on worldview alternatives, so we look at options that posit explanations of the facts F1, F2, . . Fn, and then are to be weighed on absolute and relative ability to account for facts, be coherent and have elegant, simple but not simplistic explanatory and predictive power.) KF PS: For grounding a generic, philosophically rooted theism -- god of the philosophers, not yet God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, the Christ the apostles, martyrs and confessors -- cf here on. See if G2 can provide a better balance for us ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked fundies out in the boondocks. kairosfocus
A response to this article will be delivered tomorrow at my site elvestedt.se. Elvis4708
F/N 2: In light of the above, a telling little footnote that reveals the driving force of dismissive, selective hyperskepticism and a priori materialist assumptions:
50 BoxJanuary 7, 2013 at 8:26 pm Graham2, are you aware of any evidence against the existence of god? 51 Graham2January 7, 2013 at 8:34 pm Box: No. You are asking for evidence of absence, and there isnt any, just as there is no evidence for the absence of the celestial teapot.
G2 needs to address the evidence summarised by Sir Fred and others, down to today, and indeed tracing back to Plato in The Laws Bk X on the source of the cosmos. It sure seems to me that Sir Fred Hoyle saw a lot of evidence of the type that G2 wishes to assert does not exist. KF kairosfocus
F/N: let me cite from Sir Fred Hoyle, as is in the already linked, and as appears here as part of an original post marking up the Wiki hit piece on ID: ___________ >> let me cite here a certain scientific hero of mine, the lifelong agnostic, Sir Fred Hoyle:
From 1953 onward, Willy Fowler and I have always been intrigued by the remarkable relation of the 7.65 MeV energy level in the nucleus of 12 C to the 7.12 MeV level in 16 O. If you wanted to produce carbon and oxygen in roughly equal quantities by stellar nucleosynthesis, these are the two levels you would have to fix, and your fixing would have to be just where these levels are actually found to be. Another put-up job? . . . I am inclined to think so. A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super intellect [--> as in, a Cosmos-building super intellect] has “monkeyed” with the physics as well as the chemistry and biology, and there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. [F. Hoyle, Annual Review of Astronomy and Astrophysics, 20 (1982): 16.]
This seems to have been part of the conclusion of a talk he gave at Caltech in 1981. Let’s clip a little earlier:
The big problem in biology, as I see it, is to understand the origin of the information carried by the explicit structures of biomolecules. The issue isn’t so much the rather crude fact that a protein consists of a chain of amino acids linked together in a certain way, but that the explicit ordering of the amino acids endows the chain with remarkable properties, which other orderings wouldn’t give. The case of the enzymes is well known . . . If amino acids were linked at random, there would be a vast number of arrange-ments that would be useless in serving the pur-poses of a living cell. When you consider that a typical enzyme has a chain of perhaps 200 links and that there are 20 possibilities for each link,it’s easy to see that the number of useless arrangements is enormous, more than the number of atoms in all the galaxies visible in the largest telescopes. This is for one enzyme, and there are upwards of 2000 of them, mainly serving very different purposes. So how did the situation get to where we find it to be? This is, as I see it, the biological problem – the information problem . . . . I was constantly plagued by the thought that the number of ways in which even a single enzyme could be wrongly constructed was greater than the number of all the atoms in the universe. So try as I would, I couldn’t convince myself that even the whole universe would be sufficient to find life by random processes – by what are called the blind forces of nature . . . . By far the simplest way to arrive at the correct sequences of amino acids in the enzymes would be by thought, not by random processes . . . . Now imagine yourself as a superintellect working through possibilities in polymer chemistry. Would you not be astonished that polymers based on the carbon atom turned out in your calculations to have the remarkable properties of the enzymes and other biomolecules? Would you not be bowled over in surprise to find that a living cell was a feasible construct? Would you not say to yourself, in whatever language supercalculating intellects use: Some supercalculating intellect must have designed the properties of the carbon atom, otherwise the chance of my finding such an atom through the blind forces of nature would be utterly minuscule. Of course you would, and if you were a sensible superintellect you would conclude that the carbon atom is a fix. [--> not exactly the strawman G2 would like to address, C atoms weighing more or less in Alaska, where actually they do, there is a variation of weight with latitude due to earth's rotation, that is part of why mass is used instead of weight in physics]
OF COURSE, IT IS WORSE THAN THIS. It turns out that on many dimensions of fine tuning, our cosmos spits out the following first four atoms: H, He, C, O. with N nearly 5th overall, and 5th for our galaxy. That gets us to stars, the rest of the periodic table, organic chemistry, water, terrestrial rocks [oxides or oxygen rich ceramics] and proteins. That I find is a big clue. Where, we must then see what Hoyle also said:
I do not believe that any physicist who examined the evidence could fail to draw the inference that the laws of nuclear physics have been deliberately designed with regard to the consequences they produce within stars. [["The Universe: Past and Present Reflections." Engineering and Science, November, 1981. pp. 8–12]
In short, the numbers [on dates] do not add up as Ms Forrest would have us believe, and the personality who is actually pivotal — evidently including for Thaxton et al — is not by any means a Christian, but a lifelong agnostic. And remember, the cosmological ID thinking emerged first, from the 1950?s to 70?s. It ties naturally into the issues being run into by OOL researchers who had by the 1970?s realised they had to account for functionally specific complex information in biology. >> ____________ Remember, this is a lifelong agnostic, the holder of a Nobel equivalent Prize for his work in Astrophysics, and one of the leading astrophysicists of the past century. Speaking, on his base of expertise. And, just to get the timeline straight, he is speaking and writing c 1981 - 82, not the post 1987 of the false history of the roots of ID promoted by Wiki, echoing the talking points of Barbara Forrest et al of NCSE and Louisiana Humanists [= Atheists] etc. KF kairosfocus
G2, @ 82:
ecs2: Science is, in its entirety, materialistic and successful. No priest ever cured a disease, no science text (that I have ever seen or heard about) invokes the supernatural. Its a tired line, but Science works. If you get sick, you may pray, but you also take your medicine. There is evidence that Science works, but no evidence for phantoms in the sky. As Dawkins is wont to point out, if you, by an accident of birth, were born in another culture, you would, right now, be swearing belief in some other god (there are plenty to choose) but the Science you apply to make things work would be the same.
This is the closest I see to his actually addressing the matters on the merits, and it simply underscores the depth of willfully dismissive, in parts dishonest contempt and arrogant ignorance at work. Much as WJM highlighted as the typical response he faced over years. Let me do a bit of a markup on points interwoven with the assertions: __________________ >>Science is, in its entirety, materialistic and successful.>> 1 --> Simply asserts Lewontinian a priori materalism, check. Somehow, he fails to understand the serious issues in such and the historical fallacies in the sort of pronouncement he has just made. he is also plainly ducking the duty of care to warrant the worldview of materialism, in a context where one of the immediate and serious challenges it faces is irretrievable self referential incoherence -- i.e. self-refutation. let us hear Haldane, again, and let us see if we will ever get a serious answer:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms." [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.]
2 --> This pattern of a priori materialism seen as the essence of science ignores the well-documented history of science and the issue of a certain question begging imposition of a materialistic circle of thought, which in this context of easily accessible correction, is plainly rationally unjustifiable. yes another riff on the WJM point. 3 --> Johnson's rebuke to Lewontin et al is thus all too apt:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [[Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." . . . . The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]
4 --> The bottomline is, that so long as a priori materialism censors science like this, by imposing a question-begging "rule" science loses credibility on any subject where that rule censors the investigation, i.e. especially on origins. >>No priest ever cured a disease,>> 5 --> A lie, by willful neglect or suppression of easily accessible truth and speaking with disregard to the truth, in hopes of profiting by the declarations being seen as true. G2, you need to look up the history and current reality of medical missions and their contribution to the development of medicine. have some basic respect, especially for people who risked their lives to do good to their fellow man, in service to God. >>no science text (that I have ever seen or heard about) invokes the supernatural.>> 6 --> This is of course, first, an allusion to the notion that the design inference and wider design theory are about invoking the supernatural in science. This willfully ignores even the correction of the past few days, that highlights that inference on natural [= chance and/or mechanical necessity] vs ART, is a long since well known, and empirically grounded pursuit. 6 --> Second, it artfully suppresses the history of the founding of science, which grew up in the soil of the Judaeo-Christian worldview, and which expected that the God of order who is reason himself would build a rational world, in which creatures equipped for reason and observation could investigate, discover and apply. This too was presented in correction to Wiki but is suppressed willfully. 7 --> It also suppresses the actual issue of a priori materialism as a question-begging censorship on origins. 8 --> Then, there is the little fact of what we may find in the greatest textual work of modern science -- where Newtonian dynamics and the law of gravitation were introduced to the public [calculus was by and large kept in the background], Newton's Principia, i.e. the General Scholium. This, too, was recently cited in correction to Wiki, but of course it does not fit the party-line -- how this reminds me of the dreary work of dealing with the marxists and their agit-prop -- so it is ignored:
. . . This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being. And if the fixed stars are the centres of other like systems, these, being formed by the like wise counsel, must be all subject to the dominion of One; especially since the light of the fixed stars is of the same nature with the light of the sun, and from every system light passes into all the other systems: and lest the systems of the fixed stars should, by their gravity, fall on each other mutually, he hath placed those systems at immense distances one from another. This Being governs all things, not as the soul of the world, but as Lord over all; and on account of his dominion he is wont to be called Lord God pantokrator , or Universal Ruler . . . . And from his true dominion it follows that the true God is a living, intelligent, and powerful Being; and, from his other perfections, that he is supreme, or most perfect. He is eternal and infinite, omnipotent and omniscient; that is, his duration reaches from eternity to eternity; his presence from infinity to infinity; he governs all things, and knows all things that are or can be done . . . . In him are all things contained and moved [i.e. cites Ac 17, where Paul evidently cites Cleanthes]; yet neither affects the other: God suffers nothing from the motion of bodies; bodies find no resistance from the omnipresence of God. It is allowed by all that the Supreme God exists necessarily; and by the same necessity he exists always, and every where . . . . We know him only by his most wise and excellent contrivances of things, and final cause [i.e from his designs]: we admire him for his perfections; but we reverence and adore him on account of his dominion: for we adore him as his servants; and a god without dominion, providence, and final causes, is nothing else but Fate and Nature. Blind metaphysical necessity, which is certainly the same always and every where, could produce no variety of things. [i.e necessity does not produce contingency] All that diversity of natural things which we find suited to different times and places could arise from nothing but the ideas and will of a Being necessarily existing.
9 --> So thoroughly indoctrinated are such doctrinaire materialists, that they often do not understand that a world of order speaks of an author of that order, especially in a context where for sixty years it has emerged more and more, that we live in a world that seems very carefully engineered to support the kind of life we enjoy. >>Its a tired line, but Science works.>> 10 --> Which, properly understood in light of being informed on worldview alternatives in a balanced way, is what one expects on theistic principles. Indeed, that is a major part of the story on the rise of modern science. And this is one reason why a fairer summary of the roots of science needs to be in our textbooks, people are being indoctrinated into a false, long outdated C19 rationalist view by default. 11 --> but instead, what is really meant here is that a priori materialism delivers the goods. However, on origins, it is patently begging big questions, censoring investigations, and career busting those who try to take the slightest step outside of the party line. (Where G2 evidently cannot bring himself to acknowledge that that has something to do with the number of papers out there. And of course, he is only too willing to broad brush dismiss what he cannot acknowledge and address fairly on the merits.) >>If you get sick, you may pray, but you also take your medicine.>> 12 --> of course, he does not acknowledge that he is here dealing with someone who, absent a miracle of guidance -- there is no way my mother would otherwise have found the right doctor -- would be dead forty years now. So, there are various kinds of miracles involved even in cases where one prays and takes one's medicine. In my cases adrenalin injections and two years of a regime of 20 - 30 pills per day, in doses that shocked the pharmacists. 13 --> That took courage on the part of the doctor, serious courage. But it worked. 14 --> G2 is also suppressing that the majority of physicians actually believe that miracles of healing occur today. And, it is of course the very same doctors who are best poised to know this. >>There is evidence that Science works, but no evidence for phantoms in the sky.>> 15 --> Loaded language, as usual, and the selective hyperskeptical dismissal of evidence disagreed with as "no evidence." 16 --> G2 needs to take a few moments and inform himself of the evidence that the cosmos as a whole is designed, pointing to an extracosmic immaterial designer as root cause, maybe starting with the 101 here at UD. Even through a multiverse speculation. And, he needs to attend to the voice of the lifelong agnostic astrophysicist, Hoyle, on that matter, as was repeatedly cited in recent days in the review of the Wiki hit piece on ID. 17 --> he also needs to acquaint himself withthe evidence that points to our minds as being beyond matter organised by blind chance and mechanical necessity through accidents of genetic endowment and cultural influences. >> As Dawkins is wont to point out, if you, by an accident of birth, were born in another culture, you would, right now, be swearing belief in some other god (there are plenty to choose) but the Science you apply to make things work would be the same.>> 18 --> Irrelvant, warrant does not boil down to cultural obsessions, and this ignores the fact that people do change their worldviews dramatically under the influence of considering evidence. 19 --> in addition, this hints at an absolutisation of science that fails to reckon with the limitations of its methods. Sorry, science changes and indeed in some times, diverse schools of thought obtain at the same time in different places or institutions; that is what all that stuff about scientific revolutions, paradigms, research programmes and core ideas protected by belts of auxiliary concepts and hypotheses etc is about. 20 --> Scientific conflict is as much a part of the story of science as is scientific consensus. And, after C20, no properly rational person who knows the implications of the revolutions in Physics in C17 and C20 can but recognise that consensus is not a criterion for truth in science. __________________ What is clear is that we see nowhere a serious attempt to warrant a materialistic worldview, only an attempt to dress it up in the holy lab coat and demand genuflection. All the while a shotgun is held to the back of science, to demand its allegiance to materialism. Enough is enough. Put up your dukes! (Show your substantiation, or stand exposed as holding to what is rationally unjustifiable, and imagining that by throwing mud at alternatives, you justify it. Every tub must stand on its own bottom.) KF kairosfocus
Graham2 Are these the same universal science text books that still have now debunked and fraudulent information in? Is this the same 1 single science that come to two different conclusions on the effects of causes? You know unguided vs. guided. Designed vs. non-design....? Do you think the greats like Kepler, Newton, Galileo and Pascal made the evidence fit their world view or do you think the evidence supported their world view? I have to understand how you can believe in a material process being responsible for everything because honestly it takes much greater faith to believe that! Any attempt to tell me how the material account contradicts all of science yet? I'm eternally hopeful for an answer! Andre
Groan. Quantum mechanics again. Yes, its counter-intuitive. Got that. Science texts, as far as I can tell, are universal. They dont teach have one periodic table for Europe, and another for USA. Science texts are translated to many languages and used throughout the world. Scientists travel to institutions round the world, receive trainining, then return home and no-one questions if they have been trained in the French version of Quantum Mechanics (or whatever). Does carbon have a different weight in Alaska ? Do electric motors run differently there ? Maybe the law of gravity is different in Texas ? (but then again...). And yes, great scientists can be religious, and wax eloquent, but it doesnt show in the applications of Science. Now, as for religion, the picture is rather different. Graham2
Funny how Graham2 thinks there's only 1 science. Mung
Spot on, Andre. But don't hold your breath... Axel
'No priest ever cured a disease, no science text (that I have ever seen or heard about) invokes the supernatural.' Plain bull-sh*t, Gray. You are decidedly more ignorant on this subject than you realize. The primordial claim of Max Planck, considered to be the founder of quantum theory, was: 'As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.' -Max Planck Or what is your definition of magic? You never did say. In what way does quantum mechanics differ from it. Both describes their effects, but are no nearer to explaining them; or indeed, the many cures effected by the priests and saints down the centuries. Read the latest article in New Scientist on the further, yet more mysterious counter-rational ambiguity of the wave-particle dualism of quantum mechanics. You want to 'magic' mind from matter, have nothing turn itself into everything - poofery not so much writ large as writ cosmic. If that's not magic, I don't know what could be! Axel
Graham2 I have a question for you. How can an effect be greater than its cause? How did non-intelligence (the cause) create intelligence (the effect)? I would love to know how this happened, science is all about cause and effect, In all our repeated experiments in science, we know empirically that effects can never be greater than their causes, so please do tell how the naturalistic account contradicts all of science? Andre
Who needs it Gray! Axel
No, Gray, there are two(2) sciences: (1) The science pioneered by the great Judaeo-Christian IDers and paradigm-changers of the last century; and 2) The pedantic, Mr Magoo, latter-day science of the corporate shills, myrmidons, drudges and general 'second-raters', of which those earlier IDers had either a fathomless and universal contempt (as had Einstein), a terminally-wearied contempt (as had Planck) or a benign, inevitably patronizing, and, alas, vainly didactic attitude, such as Bohr. But it's all about pink pixies and dragons 'n' stuff, isn't it, Gray? I mean those long screeds of Bornagain77, citing detailed evidence from peer-reviewed papers on the findings of leading-edge research. Axel
Mr Murray, if these so called rational agents knew your background... Which they don't. I've learnt that atheists are by for the most ignorant on matters and the least informed of all, and here I speak of my former self. Truth does not really matter to an atheist how can it if its all relative? Andre
Steve_Gann: Im not particularly concerned if Science owes its existence to anything. Religious belief permeated society then more than it does now, Newton practised alchemy, etc, but so what ? The Science we practice now doesnt invoke the supernatural in any way, we have grown up. If you dont agree, then can you provide an example ? Graham2
Timaeus, Good point on the warfare thesis. Though discredited decades ago, it lives on like a zombie. Graham2: You need to read about the idea of the clockwork universe as it relates to the rise of modern science. Its easy to find. You should also read about the voluntarism debate that came to a head in 1277. Then you will be on your way to understanding how science as we know it owes its existence to Christianity. As of now, you appear to be stuck in the whig-history 1890's. Steve_Gann
Timaeus: OK, 14th. The increase in knowledge has no bearing on whether it exists (or not), but it does have a bearing on our confidence in stating that it does (or doesnt). We are more confident now that there is no god of thunder, that disease is not due to evil spirits, etc. Where did this confidence come from ? Graham2
Graham2 (70): Ockham was writing in the 14th century, not the 12th. I don't see how the increase in empirical knowledge since Ockham's day has any bearing on whether or not a "disembodied intelligence" can exist. If such a thing existed, by its very nature it would not be directly observable, and its relationship to the world of physical cause and effect might be very indirect. In any case, it has been well established by historians of science (those who aren't still living mentally in the scholarly world of the 19th century, with its "warfare" model) that modern natural science, which arose in the West in the 17th century, owes a great deal to the metaphysical assumptions made by Christian theology -- the most central of which was that a "disembodied spirit" -- God -- existed. You can find the details of the argument in any serious scholarly book on the historical relations of science to religion. Have a look at the writings of Jaki, Hooykaas, Collingwood, etc. They're in any university or college library. Timaeus
Joe @59: The powerful, beautiful and terrible nature of free will is that we can believe and deny anything. William J Murray
I will agree there are and should be some distinctions and differences between science, philosophy, and theology. The strengths of one d oes not invalidate the othets though. Further, the intersection of philosophy and science is a weakness of evolution in my view. History tells us that the assumptions and conclusions of evolution have been highly influenced by philosophy from the beginning. ecs2
Hmmm. There are numerous studies tgat indicate medical benefit of faith. There are numerous Christians (and other religions) who were born in to families and cultures absent religion. If you know Mr. Murrays backgound, I believe you will agree he is one such example. I myself have been effectively agnostic or at least religiously indifferent (interestingly a fresh unbiased look at the 1 science you refer to is a large part of what challenged the assumptions underlying that world view). Finally, what does the existence of 3000 conceptions of God suggest? I draw different conclusion than you. It suggests a common impulse, perhaps a mutual recognition of key questions the world around us raises. Logically, the presence of many does not however suggest 1 may not be true. ecs2
Carig said @ 77: This is mentioned by WJM and then dismissed by referring to an answer. I didn't dismiss anything; I mentioned both argument and rebuttals as examples of competing evidences that must be weighed by the reader. Carig said @ 77: "I even thought how strange that a kind and benevolent God would arrange things so that..." Yes, many people wonder why god would do a lot of things. The problem is that without a rational argument stemming from sound principles, that something seems "strange" to you is not a rational position in which to bank a worldview. What is the evidence that mind and consciousness are "nothing but products of the nervous system"? William J Murray
ecs2: Science is, in its entirety, materialistic and successful. No priest ever cured a disease, no science text (that I have ever seen or heard about) invokes the supernatural. Its a tired line, but Science works. If you get sick, you may pray, but you also take your medicine. There is evidence that Science works, but no evidence for phantoms in the sky. As Dawkins is wont to point out, if you, by an accident of birth, were born in another culture, you would, right now, be swearing belief in some other god (there are plenty to choose) but the Science you apply to make things work would be the same. 3000 gods, but only 1 Science. Makes you think, doesnt it ? Why so many gods ? Why only 1 Science ? Graham2
ecs2: charitable towards opposing viewpoints Outside this site, there is a distinct, and I believe well deserved view that UD are extremely intolerant of dissenters. Does the name Barry ring a bell ? (Sign up to Aristotle something or get banned!). I have been allowed to rant for some time now, though, and I get the impression, (though without any evidence!) that someone in UD may be waking up. Graham2
One of the things I love about this site is that the community is typically very reasonable and even charitable towards opposing viewpoints. I trust G2 recognizes that one who voices opposition on a skeptics board is very roughly shouted down without addressing any of the arguments presented. Two question from a fairly neutral observer: 1) Can you back up the claim that 400 years of science contradicts Christianity? 2) The question raised by the Schlopf excerpt is interesting. Why doesn't evolution perform better as a predictive thoery? Why are there so many surprises and adjustments as unexpected results emerge? ecs2
Steve_Gann: I dont 'know there is no god' in the same way I dont 'know there is no teapot' (evidence of absence and all that). My default position is that there is no teapot until someone can provide good evidence for the existence of the teapot. God is like that but more so, much much much more so. This was all covered way up above somewhere. Graham2
It's the disembodied evolver! Evolution - change under time. Mung
WJM's argument, while an interesting stimulus for debate, has a couple of deficiencies. First charge of intellectual dishonesty should not be thrown around loosely. It creates animosity and escalation. While it is certainly true of some atheists, it is definitly not true of others. The most extreme people on both sides acheives the highest profile. As a theist I spend more time reading skeptics than believers to test my own arguments. One of my worries has been that what's available in the public arena are the views of the dishonest(and for that matter the not very bright), Thus I might be denied access to the best case against my own position. Second the claim that there are no arguments against the existence of God, is just wrong. When I was 9 I believed in God because people said there was. I had never been to Cleveland, but didn't think to question it's existence, at least until I got there. Reading a book by an atheist put me into a state of doubt. One day I heard a Paley type of teleological argument and became convinced there was a God. I was a theist for a good 20 minutes, till it ocurred to me that atheists must have some kind of answer. I therefore had to suspend judgement until I heard that answer. I finally read the argument that allowed Dawkins to become intellectually fullfilled thought it was good and was bck to agnosticism. Over the course of a few years I went from there to virtual atheism, based completly on arguments. I'll review a couple of those, but first I was being both honest and to the limits of my experience(age 15) and ability, rational. Number one the problem of suffering and evil. This is mentioned by WJM and then dismissed by referring to an answer. Now I haven't read this answer, or at 15 any answer, but I have since read many theodicies and come up with answers of my own. The argument still has some residual power and I am now a theist in spite of the arguments. Between the ages of 10 and 15 it dawned on me that there was an incredible amount of suffering in the world which involved children and even animals. Now I was thinking of God in the usual christian sense and the two are prima facia incompatible. I even thought how strange that a kind and benevolent God would arrange things so that living creatures had to eat each other to survive. I don't think I was being irrational. In fact the journey back from atheism through agnoctism to a rational conviction that God exists took 20 years and a lot of study and thought. Another argument that is rational has to do with looking at any evidence that exists that mind and consciousness are nothing but products of the nervous system. If that's true the closely related issue of life after death is greviously harmed and it makes implausible the existence of any non physical entities. Now there is evidence on both sides, and I believe the majority is with the Theists. Still the other side isn't being irrational to consider it. If I've failed to irritate anyone, let me know. carlg
So far I have seen Graham2 talk about everything but how a strong atheist knows there is no God. Graham2: If you are a strong atheist, please make your case or stop running down trails. Show us that a strong atheist has a positive case. If you are not a strong atheist, then tell us what you are. Steve_Gann
Its not 'proof' of anything. The article seemed to be suggesting that some life forms were pretty static, but it in no way, whatsoever, questioned the validity of Evolution. Both authors were pretty clear about that. What I dont understand is why you bothered quoting it, perhaps you didnt bother reading past the first juicy line. As for christian science, please, give me a break. Graham2
So the whole plethora of bacteria fossils stays unchanged and this is proof of evolution to you somehow? Okie Dokie. Guess I just got to have more faith and imagination instead of looking at the evidence! As to you comment on the last 400 hundred years of science, you do understand that it was the Christian worldview that brought modern science to a sustained level of maturity don't you? So I don't think it is to wise of you to claim science as a atheistic enterprise! In fact I would say the whole of science is thoroughly Theistic in its implications save for your cherished pseudo-science of Darwinism. bornagain77
BA77: Golubic interprets the data about blue-green bacteria quite differently. Just because these organisms have persisted 2 to 10 times longer than other "living fossils" --crocodiles and the like--doesn't mean they follow a different set of evolutionary rules, he argues. I think the article is remarking on how some species dont appear to have evolved, but there is no argument about the validity of Evolution ... this is assumed. Next question ? Graham2
Stephen Meyer – Functional Proteins And Information For Body Plans – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4050681 Dr. Stephen Meyer comments at the end of the preceding video,,, ‘Now one more problem as far as the generation of information. It turns out that you don’t only need information to build genes and proteins, it turns out to build Body-Plans you need higher levels of information; Higher order assembly instructions. DNA codes for the building of proteins, but proteins must be arranged into distinctive circuitry to form distinctive cell types. Cell types have to be arranged into tissues. Tissues have to be arranged into organs. Organs and tissues must be specifically arranged to generate whole new Body-Plans, distinctive arrangements of those body parts. We now know that DNA alone is not responsible for those higher orders of organization. DNA codes for proteins, but by itself it does insure that proteins, cell types, tissues, organs, will all be arranged in the body. And what that means is that the Body-Plan morphogenesis, as it is called, depends upon information that is not encoded on DNA. Which means you can mutate DNA indefinitely. 80 million years, 100 million years, til the cows come home. It doesn’t matter, because in the best case you are just going to find a new protein some place out there in that vast combinatorial sequence space. You are not, by mutating DNA alone, going to generate higher order structures that are necessary to building a body plan. So what we can conclude from that is that the neo-Darwinian mechanism is grossly inadequate to explain the origin of information necessary to build new genes and proteins, and it is also grossly inadequate to explain the origination of novel biological form.’ – Stephen Meyer – (excerpt taken from Meyer/Sternberg vs. Shermer/Prothero debate – 2009) Dr. Hugh Ross – Origin Of Life Paradox – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4012696 Archaean Microfossils and the Implications for Intelligent Design – August 2011 Excerpt: This dramatically limits the amount of time, and thus the probabilistic resources, available to those who wish to invoke purely unguided and purposeless material processes to explain the origin of life. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/08/surprisingly_soon_archaean_mic049921.html Without enzyme, biological reaction essential to life takes 2.3 billion years: UNC study: In 1995, Wolfenden reported that without a particular enzyme, a biological transformation he deemed “absolutely essential” in creating the building blocks of DNA and RNA would take 78 million years.“Now we’ve found a reaction that – again, in the absence of an enzyme – is almost 30 times slower than that,” Wolfenden said. “Its half-life – the time it takes for half the substance to be consumed – is 2.3 billion years, about half the age of the Earth. Enzymes can make that reaction happen in milliseconds.” http://www.med.unc.edu/www/newsarchive/2008/november/without-enzyme-biological-reaction-essential-to-life-takes-2-3-billion-years-unc-study “Phosphatase speeds up reactions vital for cell signalling by 10^21 times. Allows essential reactions to take place in a hundreth of a second; without it, it would take a trillion years!” Jonathan Sarfati http://www.pnas.org/content/100/10/5607.abstract Not only do we not have enough time for Darwinian evolution, we don’t, as massive as it is, even have a big enough universe for Darwinian evolution: Abiogenic Origin of Life: A Theory in Crisis – Arthur V. Chadwick, Ph.D. Excerpt: The synthesis of proteins and nucleic acids from small molecule precursors represents one of the most difficult challenges to the model of prebiological evolution. There are many different problems confronted by any proposal. Polymerization is a reaction in which water is a product. Thus it will only be favored in the absence of water. The presence of precursors in an ocean of water favors depolymerization of any molecules that might be formed. Careful experiments done in an aqueous solution with very high concentrations of amino acids demonstrate the impossibility of significant polymerization in this environment. A thermodynamic analysis of a mixture of protein and amino acids in an ocean containing a 1 molar solution of each amino acid (100,000,000 times higher concentration than we inferred to be present in the prebiological ocean) indicates the concentration of a protein containing just 100 peptide bonds (101 amino acids) at equilibrium would be 10^-338 molar. Just to make this number meaningful, our universe may have a volume somewhere in the neighborhood of 10^85 liters. At 10^-338 molar, we would need an ocean with a volume equal to 10^229 universes (100, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000) just to find a single molecule of any protein with 100 peptide bonds. So we must look elsewhere for a mechanism to produce polymers. It will not happen in the ocean. http://origins.swau.edu/papers/life/chadwick/default.html bornagain77
GR2: So this,,, "“They surprisingly looked exactly like modern species,” Schopf recalls. Now, after comparing data from throughout the world, Schopf and others have concluded that modern pond scum differs little from the ancient blue-greens. “This similarity in morphology is widespread among fossils of [varying] times,” says Schopf. As evidence, he cites the 3,000 such fossils found;" supports evolution for you GR2??? No dogmatism in all that huh Graham??? Fair as fair can be huh Graham? further notes for you to ignore in your impartiality: Does Deep Time Help Darwinism Work Miracles? Atheistic neo-Darwinists claim that given enough time the improbable becomes probable. i.e. Evolution, no matter how improbable, becomes certain if you allow enough time according to their reasoning. Thus to counter such simplistic reasoning in the power of time to work miracles, here are a few notes to the contrary of what the neo-Darwinists take on blind faith in the power of time; William Lane Craig - If Human Evolution Did Occur It Was A Miracle - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUxm8dXLRpA Quote from preceding video - In Barrow and Tippler’s book The Anthropic Cosmological Principle, they list ten steps necessary in the course of human evolution, each of which, is so improbable that if left to happen by chance alone, the sun would have ceased to be a main sequence star and would have incinerated the earth. They estimate that the odds of the evolution (by chance) of the human genome is somewhere between 4 to the negative 180th power, to the 110,000th power, and 4 to the negative 360th power, to the 110,000th power. Therefore, if evolution did occur, it literally would have been a miracle and evidence for the existence of God. William Lane Craig A review of The Edge of Evolution: The Search for the Limits of Darwinism Excerpt: The numbers of Plasmodium and HIV in the last 50 years greatly exceeds the total number of mammals since their supposed evolutionary origin (several hundred million years ago), yet little has been achieved by evolution. This suggests that mammals could have “invented” little in their time frame. Behe: ‘Our experience with HIV gives good reason to think that Darwinism doesn’t do much—even with billions of years and all the cells in that world at its disposal’ (p. 155). http://creation.com/review-michael-behe-edge-of-evolution Waiting Longer for Two Mutations – Michael J. Behe Excerpt: Citing malaria literature sources (White 2004) I had noted that the de novo appearance of chloroquine resistance in Plasmodium falciparum was an event of probability of 1 in 10^20. I then wrote that ‘for humans to achieve a mutation like this by chance, we would have to wait 100 million times 10 million years’ (1 quadrillion years)(Behe 2007) (because that is the extrapolated time that it would take to produce 10^20 humans). Durrett and Schmidt (2008, p. 1507) retort that my number ‘is 5 million times larger than the calculation we have just given’ using their model (which nonetheless “using their model” gives a prohibitively long waiting time of 216 million years). Their criticism compares apples to oranges. My figure of 10^20 is an empirical statistic from the literature; it is not, as their calculation is, a theoretical estimate from a population genetics model. http://www.discovery.org/a/9461 The Evolutionary Accessibility of New Enzyme Functions: A Case Study from the Biotin Pathway – Ann K. Gauger and Douglas D. Axe – April 2011 Excerpt: We infer from the mutants examined that successful functional conversion would in this case require seven or more nucleotide substitutions. But evolutionary innovations requiring that many changes would be extraordinarily rare, becoming probable only on timescales much longer than the age of life on earth. http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2011.1/BIO-C.2011.1 When Theory and Experiment Collide — April 16th, 2011 by Douglas Axe Excerpt: Based on our experimental observations and on calculations we made using a published population model [3], we estimated that Darwin’s mechanism would need a truly staggering amount of time—a trillion trillion years or more—to accomplish the seemingly subtle change in enzyme function that we studied. http://biologicinstitute.org/2011/04/16/when-theory-and-experiment-collide/ Is There Enough Time For Humans to have Evolved from Apes? Dr. Ann Gauger Answers - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN7NwKYUXOs More from Ann Gauger on why humans didn’t happen the way Darwin said - July 2012 Excerpt: Each of these new features probably required multiple mutations. Getting a feature that requires six neutral mutations is the limit of what bacteria can produce. For primates (e.g., monkeys, apes and humans) the limit is much more severe. Because of much smaller effective population sizes (an estimated ten thousand for humans instead of a billion for bacteria) and longer generation times (fifteen to twenty years per generation for humans vs. a thousand generations per year for bacteria), it would take a very long time for even a single beneficial mutation to appear and become fixed in a human population. You don’t have to take my word for it. In 2007, Durrett and Schmidt estimated in the journal Genetics that for a single mutation to occur in a nucleotide-binding site and be fixed in a primate lineage would require a waiting time of six million years. The same authors later estimated it would take 216 million years for the binding site to acquire two mutations, if the first mutation was neutral in its effect. Facing Facts But six million years is the entire time allotted for the transition from our last common ancestor with chimps to us according to the standard evolutionary timescale. Two hundred and sixteen million years takes us back to the Triassic, when the very first mammals appeared. One or two mutations simply aren’t sufficient to produce the necessary changes— sixteen anatomical features—in the time available. At most, a new binding site might affect the regulation of one or two genes. https://uncommondesc.wpengine.com/intelligent-design/more-from-ann-gauger-on-why-humans-didnt-happen-the-way-darwin-said/ Book Review – Meyer, Stephen C. Signature in the Cell. New York: HarperCollins, 2009. Excerpt: As early as the 1960s, those who approached the problem of the origin of life from the standpoint of information theory and combinatorics observed that something was terribly amiss. Even if you grant the most generous assumptions: that every elementary particle in the observable universe is a chemical laboratory randomly splicing amino acids into proteins every Planck time for the entire history of the universe, there is a vanishingly small probability that even a single functionally folded protein of 150 amino acids would have been created. Now of course, elementary particles aren’t chemical laboratories, nor does peptide synthesis take place where most of the baryonic mass of the universe resides: in stars or interstellar and intergalactic clouds. If you look at the chemistry, it gets even worse—almost indescribably so: the precursor molecules of many of these macromolecular structures cannot form under the same prebiotic conditions—they must be catalysed by enzymes created only by preexisting living cells, and the reactions required to assemble them into the molecules of biology will only go when mediated by other enzymes, assembled in the cell by precisely specified information in the genome. So, it comes down to this: Where did that information come from? The simplest known free living organism (although you may quibble about this, given that it’s a parasite) has a genome of 582,970 base pairs, or about one megabit (assuming two bits of information for each nucleotide, of which there are four possibilities). Now, if you go back to the universe of elementary particle Planck time chemical labs and work the numbers, you find that in the finite time our universe has existed, you could have produced about 500 bits of structured, functional information by random search. Yet here we have a minimal information string which is (if you understand combinatorics) so indescribably improbable to have originated by chance that adjectives fail. http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/reading_list/indices/book_726.html Dr. Sanford calculates it would take 12 million years to “fix” a single base pair mutation into a population. He further calculates that to create a gene with 1000 base pairs, it would take 12 million x 1000 or 12 billion years. This is obviously too slow to support the creation of the human genome containing 3 billion base pairs. http://www.detectingtruth.com/?p=66 bornagain77
Timaeus: I cant help what Ockham/Occam believed. As he lived in the 12th century I am prepared to give him a bit of leeway, but not now, we know just a little more about the world around us. The fact is that to accept an invisible spirit that violates just about everything 400 years of Scientific enquiry has given us, and based on no evidence is just a bit lop-sided. Sort of a no-brainer. Graham2
BA77 @66: You may not have meant to link to the Schopf article: it supports evolution. The rest I ignored, brevity is not your strong point. Graham2
@G2 I'm curious, why do you find human experience (such as NDE's, and testimonials) to be hopeless in the way of evidence? If you're interested, I posted a link to an article at post #12 of a board-certified psychiatrist and professor at New York medical college, who documented what he believes to be, an undeniable case of a demonic possession. KRock
"The idea of a disembodied intelligence is so preposterous, such an extreme violation of Ochams [sic] principle, that you are going to have to do a lot better." Since William of Ockham, in addition to being one of the greatest of medieval philosophers, also believed in the existence of the Christian God (who does not have a body but has intelligence), Ockham obviously believed in a "disembodied intelligence." It follows that Ockham was guilty of "an extreme violation of Ockham's principle." Glad we have Graham2 on board to help us correct Ockham. Maybe he will also point out the self-contradictions in Plato, Aristotle, and Kant for us as well. In the meantime, he might want to ask whether, if Ockham was inclined to propose "preposterous" things, Ockham's principle itself (the Razor) might be another of those preposterous things. Why should we trust the logical principles of a man who believes in preposterous things? Timaeus
Graham2: that post did not even rise to the level of a shallow excuse! but Okie dokie Graham2, lets really give Darwinism some time: Static evolution: is pond scum the same now as billions of years ago? Excerpt: But what intrigues (paleo-biologist) J. William Schopf most is lack of change. Schopf was struck 30 years ago by the apparent similarities between some 1-billion-year-old fossils of blue-green bacteria and their modern microbial counterparts. "They surprisingly looked exactly like modern species," Schopf recalls. Now, after comparing data from throughout the world, Schopf and others have concluded that modern pond scum differs little from the ancient blue-greens. "This similarity in morphology is widespread among fossils of [varying] times," says Schopf. As evidence, he cites the 3,000 such fossils found; http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Static+evolution%3A+is+pond+scum+the+same+now+as+billions+of+years+ago%3F-a014909330 Though it is impossible to reconstruct the DNA of the earliest bacteria fossils, scientists find in the fossil record, and compare them to their descendants of today, there are many ancient bacteria spores recovered and 'revived' from salt crystals and amber crystals which have been compared to their living descendants of today. Some bacterium spores, in salt crystals, dating back as far as 250 million years have been revived, had their DNA sequenced, and compared to their offspring of today (Vreeland RH, 2000 Nature). To the disbelieving shock of many evolutionary scientists, both ancient and modern bacteria were found to have the almost same exact DNA sequence. The Paradox of the "Ancient" (250 Million Year Old) Bacterium Which Contains "Modern" Protein-Coding Genes: “Almost without exception, bacteria isolated from ancient material have proven to closely resemble modern bacteria at both morphological and molecular levels.” Heather Maughan*, C. William Birky Jr., Wayne L. Nicholson, William D. Rosenzweig§ and Russell H. Vreeland ; http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/19/9/1637 Evolutionists were so disbelieving at this stunning lack of change, far less change than was expected from the neo-Darwinian view, that they insisted the stunning similarity was due to modern contamination in Vreeland's experiment. Yet the following study laid that objection to rest by verifying that Dr. Vreeland's methodology for extracting ancient DNA was solid and was not introducing contamination because the DNA sequences this time around were completely unique: World’s Oldest Known DNA Discovered (419 million years old) - Dec. 2009 Excerpt: But the DNA was so similar to that of modern microbes that many scientists believed the samples had been contaminated. Not so this time around. A team of researchers led by Jong Soo Park of Dalhousie University in Halifax, Canada, found six segments of identical DNA that have never been seen before by science. “We went back and collected DNA sequences from all known halophilic bacteria and compared them to what we had,” Russell Vreeland of West Chester University in Pennsylvania said. “These six pieces were unique",,, http://news.discovery.com/earth/oldest-dna-bacteria-discovered.html These following studies, by Dr. Cano on ancient bacteria, preceded Dr. Vreeland's work: “Raul J. Cano and Monica K. Borucki discovered the bacteria preserved within the abdomens of insects encased in pieces of amber. In the last 4 years, they have revived more than 1,000 types of bacteria and microorganisms — some dating back as far as 135 million years ago, during the age of the dinosaurs.,,, In October 2000, another research group used many of the techniques developed by Cano’s lab to revive 250-million-year-old bacteria from spores trapped in salt crystals. With this additional evidence, it now seems that the “impossible” is true.” http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=281961 Dr. Cano's work on ancient bacteria came in for intense scrutiny since it did not conform to Darwinian predictions, and since people found it hard to believe you could revive something that was millions of years old. Yet Dr. Cano has been vindicated: “After the onslaught of publicity and worldwide attention (and scrutiny) after the publication of our discovery in Science, there have been, as expected, a considerable number of challenges to our claims, but in this case, the scientific method has smiled on us. There have been at least three independent verifications of the isolation of a living microorganism from amber." https://uncommondesc.wpengine.com/intelligent-design/reductionist-predictions-always-fail/comment-page-3/#comment-357693 In reply to a personal e-mail from myself, Dr. Cano commented on the 'Fitness Test' I had asked him about: Dr. Cano stated: "We performed such a test, a long time ago, using a panel of substrates (the old gram positive biolog panel) on B. sphaericus. From the results we surmised that the putative "ancient" B. sphaericus isolate was capable of utilizing a broader scope of substrates. Additionally, we looked at the fatty acid profile and here, again, the profiles were similar but more diverse in the amber isolate.": Fitness test which compared ancient bacteria to its modern day descendants, RJ Cano and MK Borucki Thus, the most solid evidence available for the most ancient DNA scientists are able to find does not support evolution happening on the molecular level of bacteria. In fact, according to the fitness test of Dr. Cano, the change witnessed in bacteria conforms to the exact opposite, Genetic Entropy; a loss of functional information/complexity, since fewer substrates and fatty acids are utilized by the modern strains. Considering the intricate level of protein machinery it takes to utilize individual molecules within a substrate, we are talking an impressive loss of protein complexity, and thus loss of functional information, from the ancient amber sealed bacteria. bornagain77
BA77: Evolution is a long process, carried out over years, in many individuals, and at many levels. I keep putting 'observe' in quotes because its really a nonsensical idea. Its like trying to 'observe' an earthquake. You insist on this cartoon-simple idea that we can watch it, like watching a kettle boil. What we see is evidence of the results of evolution, all around us. Have you 'observed' god creating life? perform miracles ? Graham2
GR2: "The idea of a disembodied intelligence is so preposterous" Why exactly??? you must have a some parameter that prevents God from being real, some scientific finding, or something basic law of physics being violated. Your personal tastes as to what you find preposterous is not going to cut it. I mean you really are going to have to do a lot better than personal incredulity to make your point. For instance, What 'disembodied' entity brought the entire universe into being? (note that the entity must be 'disembodied' since no space-time matter-energy existed before the creation event of the universe) bornagain77
@Graham 58 Tell me where I go wrong here: 1. There is no evidence against the existence of God. 2. There is at the very least some evidence (e.g. Fine Tuning) in favor of the existence of God. 3. Therefor it is more probable that god exists than that God does not exist. So atheism isn’t rationally justifiable. Box
as to: "I think you know as well as I that its not possible to ‘observe’ evolution in progress." Actually, I've seen headlines saying that 'evolution has been 'caught in the act'. But anyways your claim that it is 'not possible' to 'observe' evolution is patently false, we SHOULD be able to observe SOMETHING of vertical evolution happening. The fact that we don't see ANYTHING AT ALL happening, in a vertical direction, is a tremendously strong indication that molecules to man evolution is false: In fact Neo-Darwinists claim that evolution is an observed fact on par with the observed fact of gravity. But very contrary to their claims, the plain fact of the matter is that there is ZERO observed instances of neo-Darwinian evolution: Where's the substantiating evidence for neo-Darwinism? Many of these researchers also raise the question (among others), why — even after inducing literally billions of induced mutations and (further) chromosome rearrangements — all the important mutation breeding programs have come to an end in the Western World instead of eliciting a revolution in plant breeding, either by successive rounds of selective “micromutations” (cumulative selection in the sense of the modern synthesis), or by “larger mutations” … and why the law of recurrent variation is endlessly corroborated by the almost infinite repetition of the spectra of mutant phenotypes in each and any new extensive mutagenesis experiment (as predicted) instead of regularly producing a range of new systematic species… (Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig, “Mutagenesis in Physalis pubescens L. ssp. floridana: Some Further Research on Dollo’s Law and the Law of Recurrent Variation,” Floriculture and Ornamental Biotechnology Vol. 4 (Special Issue 1): 1-21 (December 2010).) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/12/peer-reviewed_research_paper_o042191.html Four decades worth of lab work is surveyed here, and no evidence for neo-Darwinian evolution surfaces: “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain – Michael Behe – December 2010 Excerpt: In its most recent issue The Quarterly Review of Biology has published a review by myself of laboratory evolution experiments of microbes going back four decades.,,, The gist of the paper is that so far the overwhelming number of adaptive (that is, helpful) mutations seen in laboratory evolution experiments are either loss or modification of function. Of course we had already known that the great majority of mutations that have a visible effect on an organism are deleterious. Now, surprisingly, it seems that even the great majority of helpful mutations degrade the genome to a greater or lesser extent.,,, I dub it “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain. http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2010/12/the-first-rule-of-adaptive-evolution/ Michael Behe talks about the preceding paper in this following podcast: Michael Behe: Challenging Darwin, One Peer-Reviewed Paper at a Time – December 2010 http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/player/web/2010-12-23T11_53_46-08_00 How about the oft cited example for neo-Darwinism of antibiotic resistance? List Of Degraded Molecular Abilities Of Antibiotic Resistant Bacteria: Excerpt: Resistance to antibiotics and other antimicrobials is often claimed to be a clear demonstration of “evolution in a Petri dish.” ,,, all known examples of antibiotic resistance via mutation are inconsistent with the genetic requirements of evolution. These mutations result in the loss of pre-existing cellular systems/activities, such as porins and other transport systems, regulatory systems, enzyme activity, and protein binding. http://www.trueorigin.org/bacteria01.asp That doesn't seem to be helping! How about we look really, really, close at very sensitive growth rates and see if we can catch almighty evolution in action??? Unexpectedly small effects of mutations in bacteria bring new perspectives – November 2010 Excerpt: Most mutations in the genes of the Salmonella bacterium have a surprisingly small negative impact on bacterial fitness. And this is the case regardless whether they lead to changes in the bacterial proteins or not.,,, using extremely sensitive growth measurements, doctoral candidate Peter Lind showed that most mutations reduced the rate of growth of bacteria by only 0.500 percent. No mutations completely disabled the function of the proteins, and very few had no impact at all. Even more surprising was the fact that mutations that do not change the protein sequence had negative effects similar to those of mutations that led to substitution of amino acids. A possible explanation is that most mutations may have their negative effect by altering mRNA structure, not proteins, as is commonly assumed. http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-unexpectedly-small-effects-mutations-bacteria.html Shoot that doesn't seem to be helping either! Perhaps we just got to give the almighty power of neo-Darwinism ‘room to breathe’? How about we ‘open the floodgates’ to the almighty power of Darwinian Evolution and look at Lenski’s Long Term Evolution Experiment and see what we can find after 50,000 generations, which is equivalent to somewhere around 1,000,000 years of human evolution??? Richard Lenski’s Long-Term Evolution Experiments with E. coli and the Origin of New Biological Information – September 2011 Excerpt: The results of future work aside, so far, during the course of the longest, most open-ended, and most extensive laboratory investigation of bacterial evolution, a number of adaptive mutations have been identified that endow the bacterial strain with greater fitness compared to that of the ancestral strain in the particular growth medium. The goal of Lenski’s research was not to analyze adaptive mutations in terms of gain or loss of function, as is the focus here, but rather to address other longstanding evolutionary questions. Nonetheless, all of the mutations identified to date can readily be classified as either modification-of-function or loss-of-FCT. (Michael J. Behe, “Experimental Evolution, Loss-of-Function Mutations and ‘The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution’,” Quarterly Review of Biology, Vol. 85(4) (December, 2010).) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/09/richard_lenskis_long_term_evol051051.html Now that just can’t be right!! Man we should really start to be seeing some neo-Darwinian fireworks by 50,000 generations!?! Hey I know what we can do! How about we see what happened when the ‘top five’ mutations from Lenski’s experiment were combined??? Surely now the Darwinian magic will start flowing!!! Mutations : when benefits level off – June 2011 – (Lenski’s e-coli after 50,000 generations) Excerpt: After having identified the first five beneficial mutations combined successively and spontaneously in the bacterial population, the scientists generated, from the ancestral bacterial strain, 32 mutant strains exhibiting all of the possible combinations of each of these five mutations. They then noted that the benefit linked to the simultaneous presence of five mutations was less than the sum of the individual benefits conferred by each mutation individually. http://www2.cnrs.fr/en/1867.htm?theme1=7 Now something is going terribly wrong here!!! Tell you what, let’s just forget trying to observe evolution in the lab, I mean it really is kind of cramped in the lab you know, and now let’s REALLY open the floodgates and let’s see what the almighty power of neo-Darwinian evolution can do with the ENTIRE WORLD at its disposal??? Surely now almighty neo-Darwinian evolution will flex its awesomely powerful muscles and forever make those IDiots, who believe in Intelligent Design, cower in terror!!! A review of The Edge of Evolution: The Search for the Limits of Darwinism The numbers of Plasmodium and HIV in the last 50 years greatly exceeds the total number of mammals since their supposed evolutionary origin (several hundred million years ago), yet little has been achieved by evolution. This suggests that mammals could have “invented” little in their time frame. Behe: ‘Our experience with HIV gives good reason to think that Darwinism doesn’t do much—even with billions of years and all the cells in that world at its disposal’ (p. 155). http://creation.com/review-michael-behe-edge-of-evolution Michael Behe, The Edge of Evolution, pg. 162 Swine Flu, Viruses, and the Edge of Evolution “Indeed, the work on malaria and AIDS demonstrates that after all possible unintelligent processes in the cell–both ones we’ve discovered so far and ones we haven’t–at best extremely limited benefit, since no such process was able to do much of anything. It’s critical to notice that no artificial limitations were placed on the kinds of mutations or processes the microorganisms could undergo in nature. Nothing–neither point mutation, deletion, insertion, gene duplication, transposition, genome duplication, self-organization nor any other process yet undiscovered–was of much use.” http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/05/swine_flu_viruses_and_the_edge020071.html Now, there is something terribly wrong here! After looking high and low and everywhere in between, we can’t seem to find the almighty power of neo-Darwinism anywhere!! Shoot we can’t even find ANY power of neo-Darwinism whatsoever!!! It is as if the whole neo-Darwinian theory, relentlessly sold to the general public as it was the gospel truth, is nothing but a big fat lie!!! bornagain77
Graham2- You are confused- one designing agency is more parsimonious than millions upon millions of just-so cosmic collisions and atomic-level accidents. Your position can't even muster a testable hypothesis- it is all faith. That "paltry" list above is by far more than your position will ever muster. And I understand that has you all upset. Well maybe this year someone will find some positive evidence for materialism... Joe
Speaking of photosynthesis:
Despite its complexity, C4 photosynthesis is one of the best examples of convergent evolution, having evolved more than 50 times in at least 18 plant families (Sage 2004; Conway Morris 2006).
Phylogenomics of C4 Photosynthesis in Sedges(pdf) Mung
William J Murray- What do you do when the atheists have faith in their God substitute of mother nature, father time, and unknown processes? Are they really atheists, or just denialists? Joe
Box: Not at all. I find the fine-tuning argument interesting, but not enough on its own. The idea of a disembodied intelligence is so preposterous, such an extreme violation of Ochams principle, that you are going to have to do a lot better. Lots better than the paltry list above. Graham2
Graham2- The problem with materialism is it ain't even wrong. The refusal to accept God or the design inference is NOT positive evidence for materialism. Your faith in mother nature, father time and magical mystery processes, while amusing, is not positive evidence for materialism. Joe
BA77: I think you know as well as I that its not possible to 'observe' evolution in progress. Have you 'observed' god doing his stuff ? Were you there to watch the designer creating life ? Graham2
@Graham2 So do you agree with William J Murray, after weighing the evidence, that atheism isn't rationally justifiable? Box
"I allowed myself to be sidetracked a bit there." You certainly did. I noticed that you were so sidetracked you forgot to cite any evidence whatsoever of Darwinism producing ANY molecular machine. bornagain77
Box: Its mostly rubbish. The morality stuff, testimonials, NDE's etc are all pretty hopeless. About the only one I find interesting is the fine-tuning one (as did Hitchens). Graham2
@Graham2 There is no evidence for Russell's teapot. What do you think about the evidence in favor of god's existence as presented by William J Murray? Box
Box: No. You are asking for evidence of absence, and there isnt any, just as there is no evidence for the absence of the celestial teapot. Graham2
Graham2, are you aware of any evidence against the existence of god? Box
G2 at 48. That precise description reminds me of Marx and Freud, and of another ideologue of that same century, of much influence even now, whose name strangely escapes me. Ian Thompson
I allowed myself to be sidetracked a bit there. ID seems to be like Scientology all over again. Extravagant promises + messianic zeal, followed by a long slow death as it is realized the emperor has no clothes. Graham2
Graham2, since you think 'evolutiondidit' please provide a demonstration of the protein complex, they are drooling over, arising by purely Darwinian processes! Trouble is for you, and for the researchers who are floored by the 'engineering' of the protein complex, is that you don't have ANY examples of ANY molecular machines arising by material processes (you don't even have an example of a single novel protein arising in such fashion), whereas I have examples of Intelligence producing both molecular machines and proteins. Go figure! bornagain77
Ba77: You are missing the point. Unless your point is that you (ID) just sit around, waiting for (materialist) Science to do all the hard work for you. Regarding the paper Unlocking nature’s quantum engineering ..., just because it has the magic word 'quantum' in it, you jump to the conclusion that, by golly, gee whiz, Evolution couldnt have done it. Why not?. I would rather place my 'faith' in Evolution than an invisible friend in the sky. Graham2
Hilarious article in the New Scientist, implicitly demonstrating the decadence of the post-Christian West, in its comparison of the effectiveness of our respective education systems. In the UK, the atheist, Socialist politicos want religious schools to be denied government funding, yet they all want their children to be educated in them, and will lie and cheat to do so. Even move house, if necessary! However, what makes the article comical is that the author seeks to downplay its significance by saying how much more commercially successful and prosperous we've been in the West (never mind that it's been increasingly for the few at the dire expense of the many, and on the back of a Ponzi debt-bubble, bringing us via this polarisation, to the brink of an economic tsunami)! Axel
Graham2, can you tell me if this paper, which came out today, either supports or questions the blind material processes of Darwinism?
Unlocking nature's quantum engineering for efficient solar energy - January 7, 2013 Excerpt: Certain biological systems living in low light environments have unique protein structures for photosynthesis that use quantum dynamics to convert 100% of absorbed light into electrical charge,,, "Some of the key issues in current solar cell technologies appear to have been elegantly and rigorously solved by the molecular architecture of these PPCs – namely the rapid, lossless transfer of excitons to reaction centres.",,, These biological systems can direct a quantum process, in this case energy transport, in astoundingly subtle and controlled ways – showing remarkable resistance to the aggressive, random background noise of biology and extreme environments. "This new understanding of how to maintain coherence in excitons, and even regenerate it through molecular vibrations, provides a fascinating glimpse into the intricate design solutions – seemingly including quantum engineering – ,,, and which could provide the inspiration for new types of room temperature quantum devices." http://phys.org/news/2013-01-nature-quantum-efficient-solar-energy.html
If Graham2 you say, against all common sense, that it supports blind Darwinian processes, please demonstrate for those of us who can't quite muster that much blind faith in the undirected processes of Darwinism that the protein complex, that they are drooling over, can arise by purely Darwinian processes! further notes:
Scientists unlock some key secrets of photosynthesis - July 2, 2012 Excerpt: "The photosynthetic system of plants is nature's most elaborate nanoscale biological machine," said Lakshmi. "It converts light energy at unrivaled efficiency of more than 95 percent compared to 10 to 15 percent in the current man-made solar technologies.,, "Photosystem II is the engine of life," Lakshmi said. "It performs one of the most energetically demanding reactions known to mankind, splitting water, with remarkable ease and efficiency.",,, "Water is a very stable molecule and it takes four photons of light to split water," she said. "This is a challenge for chemists and physicists around the world (to imitate) as the four-photon reaction has very stringent requirements." http://phys.org/news/2012-07-scientists-key-secrets-photosynthesis.html The Miracle Of Photosynthesis - electron transport - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj_WKgnL6MI Electron transport and ATP synthesis during photosynthesis - Illustration http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/bv.fcgi?rid=cooper.figgrp.1672 The Elaborate Nanoscale Machine Called Photosynthesis: No Vestige of a Beginning - Cornelius Hunter - July 2012 Excerpt: "The ability to do photosynthesis is widely distributed throughout the bacterial domain in six different phyla, with no apparent pattern of evolution. Photosynthetic phyla include the cyanobacteria, proteobacteria (purple bacteria), green sulfur bacteria (GSB), firmicutes (heliobacteria), filamentous anoxygenic phototrophs (FAPs, also often called the green nonsulfur bacteria), and acidobacteria (Raymond, 2008)." http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2012/07/elaborate-nanoscale-machine-called.html?showComment=1341739083709#c1202402748048253561
In what I find to be a very fascinating discovery, it is found that photosynthetic life, which is an absolutely vital link that all higher life on earth is dependent on for food, uses ‘non-local’ quantum mechanical principles to accomplish photosynthesis. Moreover, this is direct evidence that a non-local, beyond space-time mass-energy, cause must be responsible for ‘feeding’ all life on earth, since all higher life on earth is eventually completely dependent on this non-local, beyong spane and time, ‘photosynthetic energy’ in which to live their lives on this earth: Non-Local Quantum Coherence In Photosynthesis - video with notes in description http://vimeo.com/30235178 Unusual Quantum Effect Discovered in Earliest Stages of Photosynthesis - May 2012 Excerpt: The quantum effects observed in the course of the experiment hint that the natural light-harvesting processes involved in photosynthesis may be more efficient than previously indicated by classical biophysics, said chemist Gary Wiederrecht of Argonne's Center for Nanoscale Materials. "It leaves us wondering: how did Mother Nature create this incredibly elegant solution?" he said. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120524092932.htm Quantum Mechanics at Work in Photosynthesis: Algae Familiar With These Processes for Nearly Two Billion Years - Feb. 2010 Excerpt: "We were astonished to find clear evidence of long-lived quantum mechanical states involved in moving the energy. Our result suggests that the energy of absorbed light resides in two places at once -- a quantum superposition state, or coherence -- and such a state lies at the heart of quantum mechanical theory.",,, "It suggests that algae knew about quantum mechanics nearly two billion years before humans," says Scholes. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100203131356.htm A few notes on the theistic implications of light itself: It is found that light is extremely fine tuned to the atmosphere, to biological molecules and to water, for life to exist: Extreme (1 in 10^24) Fine Tuning of Light for Life and Scientific Discovery - Richards, Gonzalez - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/7715887 Visible light is incredibly fine-tuned for life to exist. Though visible light is only a tiny fraction of the total electromagnetic spectrum coming from the sun, it happens to be the "most permitted" portion of the sun's spectrum allowed to filter through the our atmosphere. All the other bands of electromagnetic radiation, directly surrounding visible light, happen to be harmful to organic molecules, and are almost completely absorbed by the atmosphere. The tiny amount of harmful UV radiation, which is not visible light, allowed to filter through the atmosphere is needed to keep various populations of single cell bacteria from over-populating the world (Ross; reasons.org). The size of light's wavelengths and the constraints on the size allowable for the protein molecules of organic life, also seem to be tailor-made for each other. This "tailor-made fit" allows photosynthesis, the miracle of sight, and many other things that are necessary for human life. These specific frequencies of light (that enable plants to manufacture food and astronomers to observe the cosmos) represent less than 1 trillionth of a trillionth (10^-24) of the universe's entire range of electromagnetic emissions. Like water, visible light also appears to be of optimal biological utility (M.Denton; W.Bradley; G.Gonzalez; J.Richards). etc.. etc... bornagain77
KF: 50 papers ? We have all seen the list and they are a mix of 'ID friendly' papers, magazine articles, 'peer-edited' articles, etc, but say we grant that ID has produced 50 papers. How long have you been at it ... 10 years ? 20 years ? 50 papers would be the typical output of a couple of researchers for this time. What happened to the army ? And while we are at it, perhaps we could check the fecundity of PCID ?, Bio-Complexity? Graham2
PS: It seems you don't know enough -- or don't care -- to address the difference between theology and philosophy. FYI, the issue on the table is philosophy, not theology, and phil becomes relevant when science gets derailed by hidden assumptions or ideologies. Which is exactly what Lewontinian a priori materialism -- whether blatant or hidden under "mere" methodological rules -- is about. You threw the first punch, now, put up your dukes. kairosfocus
G2: you have not even bothered to see that there is in fact a growing body of published, peer reviewed research [now at about 50 papers IIRC], never mind the censorship, expulsion and slander games. And I cannot let up on the point that say the expulsion of Gonzalez HAD to have had an impact. And that was a piece of unjust career busting if I ever saw one. Besides, the issue is, to find well warranted truth about our world in light of empirical investigation and reasoned analysis. Where, also, on the table for this thread is the challenge to warrant the Lewontinian a priori evolutionary materialism that is so often smuggled in as a mere, centuries long methodological rule. You are playing at subject switching to derail discussion again. Put up your dukes. KF kairosfocus
Axel: Infinity, the continuum and infinitesimals are all over the place in mathematics and its applications, so we need to have a working theory for dealing with them, well do I remember seeing this in action with calculus, curve sketching, limits, etc. The trick in our contexts of the debate points we face is that we deal with issues tied to traversing a countable of cardinality aleph null, such as infinite regress of causes or warrants. You simply cannot either count up to or count down from infinity step by step, neither can you reach to or from it in a step by step process. That is what has to be squarely faced and then we have to drive out question begging circles and self referential and incoherent frames of thought. KF kairosfocus
My point is that if ID was as fertile as you guys claim (the growing army of 'ID theorists'), we would see, at least a dribble, of original results. I thought that was the point of this blog ... to discuss ID, but it has more or less totally degenerated to theology. When shall we see the latest ID research/discoveries that finally kill off materialism ? I dont think material Science is feeling particularly threatened. The death of the IDEA clubs is significant. Graham2
F/N: G2 is trying the old, ID does not publish talking point, neatly ducking the exposeed reality of materialist censorship in the name of peer review, and the fact that if a certain Judge Jones had cared to acknowledge bare facts presented to him in his own courtroom, was past sell-by date in 2005. Cf the list of publications here, which does not address the cosmological side in detail, which has a lot more. kairosfocus
In re: Axel @ 32: Yes, that's correct: formal logic is study of validity, of what it is for one assertion to follow from another assertion. It won't tell you if your initial assertions are true, and even more importantly: if you put a whole bunch of sentences into a logical system, the system will tell you which ones are inconsistent with which other ones, but it cannot tell you which sentences should be tossed. To do that, one needs a much more powerful system that a simple deductive system. For example, you might assign probabilities to the sentences, and toss out the lower-probability sentences if they are not consistent with the higher-probability sentences. But that's really one big Red Herring, since Russell's criticisms of organized religion do not depend on formal logic at all. Kantian Naturalist
Box: Unfortunately, Russell isn't here to make his case or share his views concerning god as I've defined above. Theism is not not a philosophy subsumed by Christianity + Nordic + Greek pantheons. I think many people in the west have thrown the theistic baby out with the bathwater in a fit of ill-considered outrage and/or a sensation of intellectual superiority over what is often referred to as "stone-age myths". William J Murray
I should have said, '... and about as useful as a bicycle-frame without wheels.... or, a crossword.' Axel
G2: Now, it seems the problem is as bad as twisting the still in progress deconstruction of Wiki's hatchet job on ID into pretzels. Here is the root problem with addressing origins science, as addressed by Lewontin in a cat out of the bag quote that says it all:
the problem is to get them [= hoi polloi] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[--> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident [[--> actually, this is another logical error, begging the question, confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . . ] that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test [[--> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[--> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[--> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door . . . [ --> and if you think you can wiggle out of this by pretending that a priori materialism does not mean just what it says, understand that to such materialists the ONLY reality is physical and/or derived therefrom, ever since Lucretius and co. That means that physical reality is the only thing there to be understood, that's why to them science (which studies the physical world in its various aspects) is the only begetter of truth, a big blunder: scientism. Similarly, the common diversion that this is quote mined fails, cf here on for the fuller quote and discussion. As to the notion that those who believe in God believe in a chaos that frustrates the possibility of science, let the brute historical fact that it was theists who founded and launched modern science from within a view that the God of order and reason made a reasonable and intelligible world for our benefit and invites us to explore and make good of it speak to that, as well as the related fact that theology highlights that to stand out as signs pointing beyond the usual order of the world, which is what miracles would be, there must first be a usual order of the world. That is, by their very nature miracles would be necessarily rare and in contexts that make sense of such signs. Not to mention, the lawful order of the world is itself a big sign, as Newton and others pointed out.]
That is why atheism, in the a priori evolutionary materialism form, cannot be ducked in the end. It is being written into the science and is begging the questions before the facts can speak. And is quite evidently in key part driven by hostility, as we see in ever so many forms. I call that throwing the first punch. A favourite distraction from that little logical blunder, is to try the turnabout accusation (the one I have objected to here that you are now trying to twist about), oh design thinking is not about the design inference, no, no, no, it is about creationism hiding in a cheap tuxedo to try to evade US Supreme Court rulings. Which is -- as noted and linked -- what Wiki says, and which (for cause) is what I call out as a piece of propagandistic fabrication of false history. As in, Wiki is playing the "they hit back first" card. Do me a favour: you tell me on the facts -- the thread is still open and the facts are laid out step by step, why the actual history of ID's founding era from 1953 - 1984 (as was laid out as just linked), is not able to speak for itself, say in the voice of Nobel Equivalent prize holder Fred Hoyle, circa 1981/2. And remember, the date of the first ID technical book, TMLO, is 1984. As, in it cannot reasonably be said to be a reaction to the Edwards decision of 1987. That is why -- frankly, deceitfully -- Wiki makes much of a 1989 high school supplement book, instead of dealing with the real deal, TMLO in context of 1953 - 1984. Where I come from, that is a strawman tactic, and where Ms Forrest and co of the NCSE and Louisiana Hummanists [= Atheists . . . hint, hint . . . ] come from, it is a strawman tactic, too. Having thrown your attempted rhetorical sucker punches, put up your dukes. If you cannot back up on facts all the material facts not just half truths, you are guilty of further trying to spread a propagandistic lie, in order to trollishly derail a thread that takes the a priori materialism jag back home to where it belongs. Namely, atheism in the form of a priori evolutionary materialism as underlying ideology. And in taking the issue back home, this thread is raising some serious questions about strong and weak form atheism and warrant that need to be answered on the merits. Maybe, WJM has it all wrong, and a priori evolutionary materialist atheism in some form can stand up in serious worldviews company. If so, feel free to show it. So far, though, what we are seeing is the same tactics that are so familiar and which he reports have been used against him for years. They have passed sell-by date. You have thrown the first punch. So, put up your dukes. In fact, let me extend the 3 months plus, no takers to date 6,000 word challenge to produce an article to make the case for materialist evolution on OOL and OO body plans accounting for the tree of life. On similar terms, I am willing to host here at UD an article that lays out the worldviews level warrant for Lewontinian a priori materialism/atheism. As the one who tried the turnabout tactic, I make it first and foremost personal: YOU are hereby invited to put up your dukes and provide the article. Let's see you make the case. Put up your dukes. KF kairosfocus
Graham2:
There are real papers related to Evolution published more or less daily, but ID ?
What kind of "evolution" are those papers related to? Unguided, ie blind watchmaker, evolution? Or guided/ directed, ie Intelligent Design, evolution? I know how to test Intelligent Design evolution. And no one appears to know how to test blind watchmaker evolution. Strange, that... Joe
It seems that in distinguishing the features of formal logic, Russell, arguably, led mankind up the garden path, threw us a red herring, since it is too easy for the intellectual to see logic, itself, as having autonomous merit, irrespective of the merit of the premise. To me. Formal logic is a kind of crossword for people with mathematical minds, and about as useful as a bicycle-frame without wheels. (But then, I could be biased, as I could never understand it! So, I insist it's a parlour-game for nerds). At least the notation, 'infinity', however entirely notional it apparently is, serves a very useful purpose to you bods with minds like Kairo, bornagain and the rest of you, in your mathematical forays. Axel
William J Murray: “Sure, but since I didn’t propose a Christian definition of god anyway, are his arguments really relevant here?”
Not the part about Jesus and churches of course. Does B. Russell declare himself to be an atheist and is he therefor intellectually dishonest? Well ... B. Russell draws very near to atheism. “An agnostic, in any sense in which he can be regarded as one, may hold that the existence of God, though not impossible, is very improbable; he may even hold it so improbable that it is not worth considering in practice." To the question ’Do you think it is certain that there is no such thing as God?’ Russell answered, "No, I don't think it is certain there is no such thing — I think it is on exactly the same level as the Olympic gods, or the Norwegian gods; they also may exist, the gods of Olympus and Valhalla. I can't prove they don't, but I think that the Christian God has no more likelihood than they had. I think they are a bare possibility." Box
Logic is no more than the skill to work out the things you WANT to understand, and is anything but proof against the most arrant lunacy, if the individual using it, no matter how prestigious his accreditations, chooses not to base his premises on sound, internally-coherent hypotheses, e.g. the internally-conflictual, nay, internecine, symbiosis of theodicy and materialism. (Cornelius isn't the only one who can use big words, even if he does so to better effect!) Leading lights of professional Establishments tend to be career-driven, rather than driven by a burning para-messianic zeal for truth and the common weal. Intellectual integrity would not figure high on the list of the professional or personal desiderata of many such luminaries. Ergo, the World is every bit as crazy as Christ taught us. Axel
How would naturalism fit into atheism? Which is prior (encompasses the other)? Steve_Gann
Mr. Murray, Thanks for the post and opportunity to hammer out the different kind of atheism. I greatly appreciate it. What I would like to see from strong atheists is "I have justified true beliefs that there is no God and here they are: _____, __________, ___________. So far all I have seen is sneering. Steve_Gann
Box, Sure, but since I didn't propose a Christian definition of god anyway, are his arguments really relevant here? William J Murray
JGuy: I have no notable related background or education, other than that I had a couple of philosophy books published in the mid 1990's. William J Murray
In ‘Why I Am Not A Christian’ (1927), Bertrand Russell takes on arguments in favor of God one by one. Some of his objections are simply outdated. Trying to deal with the cosmological argument he states: “There is no reason to suppose that the world had a beginning at all. The idea that things must have a beginning is really due to the poverty of our imagination. Therefore, perhaps, I need not waste any more time upon the argument about the First Cause.” Bertrand was of course unaware of the Big Bang theory. For the same reason he wasn’t able to address Fine Tuning arguments. He pays no attention to anecdotal and testimonial evidence at all. He isn’t impressed by Jesus and hates churches. Box
Semi related note that may be of mild interest: Both Charles Darwin and Abraham Lincoln were born on the same day and shared many strange similarities: "Both men lost their mothers in early childhood, both suffered depression and both struggled with religious questions. The two also had poor relations with their fathers and each lost a child in early childbirth. Lincoln and Darwin both share "late bloomers" disease: Neither found real success until their middle years — Darwin published The Origin of the Species at 50 and Lincoln was elected President one year later." http://www.tressugar.com/Lincoln-Darwin-More-Alike-Than-Youd-Might-Think-1757730 But the one common thing that separated the two men drastically was the way they choose to handle evil in their lives. Darwin, though drifting away for a long while earlier, was permanently driven away from God because of the death of his daughter: "The death of his daughter was a significant event in Darwin’s life, and certainly consolidated his belief that a bad world is incompatible with a good God." http://askjohnmackay.com/questions/answer/darwin-did-death-charles-daughter-annie-turn-him-against-god-christianity Whereas Lincoln was driven from his mild skepticism into a deeper reliance upon God because of the death of his son: Abraham Lincoln's Path to Divine Providence Excerpt: In 1862, when Lincoln was 53 years old, his 11-year-old son Willie died. Lincoln’s wife “tried to deal with her grief by searching out New Age mediums.” Lincoln turned to Phineas Gurley, pastor of the New York Avenue Presbyterian Church in Washington. Several long talks led to what Gurley described as “a conversion to Christ.” Lincoln confided that he was “driven many times upon my knees by the overwhelming conviction that I have nowhere else to go.” Similarly, the horrors of the dead and wounded soldiers assaulted him daily. There were fifty hospitals for the wounded in Washington. The rotunda of the Capitol held 2,000 cots for wounded soldiers. Typically, fifty soldiers a day died in these temporary hospitals. All of this drove Lincoln deeper into the providence of God. “We cannot but believe, that He who made the world still governs it.” His most famous statement about the providence of God in relation to the Civil War was his Second Inaugural Address, given a month before he was assassinated. It is remarkable for not making God a simple supporter for the Union or Confederate cause. He has his own purposes and does not excuse sin on either side. "Fondly do we hope—fervently do we pray—that this mighty scourge of war might speedily pass away.... Yet if God wills that it continue, until all the wealth piled by the bond-man’s two hundred years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be paid with another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago so still it must be said, “the judgments of the Lord, are true and righteous altogether.” http://www.christianity.com/theology/abraham-lincolns-path-to-divine-providence-11599728.html bornagain77
WJM: Some previous threads were complaining that Wiki got it all wrong, ID is not related to creationism, its all Scientific, by golly. Yet UD has degenerated to nothing but philosophy/theology. Sure, you can discuss anything you like. Dental flossing is important for oral hygeine, but how is related to ID ? If there were any real progress in ID, we would hear about it (on this blog). There are real papers related to Evolution published more or less daily, but ID ? Graham2
William J Murray, Do you mind if i ask what your background or education is here? Especially, regarding the topic of this post (e.g. sciences, philosophy, philosophers and debate). If you choose not to answer, that will not be taken as negative. I know there is a reason to not post credentials in order to mitigate bias in either direction. Good reasoning should stand regardless. I'm just curious. JGuy JGuy
Graham2- If God did Create us and the universe, then THAT IS SCIENCE, because science only cares about REALITY. Joe
I'm OK with a designer that isn't God nor has a God complex. A designer that is NOT omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. A designer who does not care about salvation. Just sayin'... Joe
Quick question: Why is the God of your definition bound by the principles of logic? DiEb
Its theology rationality all the way down. Yup. Mung
Graham2: Is it your intent to derail the topic of discussion? It should be apparent to you by now that UD presents all sorts of topics for discussion and debate. BA77: William or Bill is fine. I'm no doctor. It is amazing to me that any anti-IDist ever made any "argument from bad design" without recognizing how irrational the argument is. You cannot tell how good or bad a design is unless you know the full intent of the design, and the full impact of limiting parameters. William J Murray
Of related note: Dawkins says he's only '6 out of 7' sure God doesn't exist - early 2012 http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/320143 In the following video, Stein challenges Dawkins, after Dawkins had laid out his Theodological based argument against God, to put a number on his belief that God does exist: Ben Stein vs. Richard Dawkins Interview - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlZtEjtlirc bornagain77
Mr. (Or Dr.) Murray This may be of interest: Dawkins stated:
“Although atheism might have been logically tenable before Darwin, Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist.” ” - Richard Dawkins
Yet the ironic thing in Dawkins' claim is that Darwinism relies primarily on Theological argumentation:
Charles Darwin, Theologian: Major New Article on Darwin's Use of Theology in the Origin of Species - May 2011 The Origin supplies abundant evidence of theology in action; as Dilley observes: I have argued that, in the first edition of the Origin, Darwin drew upon at least the following positiva theological claims in his case for descent with modification (and against special creation): 1. Human begins are not justfied in believing that God creates in ways analogous to the intellectual powers of the human mind. 2. A God who is free to create as He wishes would create new biological limbs de novo rather than from a common pattern. 3. A respectable deity would create biological structures in accord with a human conception of the 'simplest mode' to accomplish the functions of these structures. 4. God would only create the minimum structure required for a given part's function. 5. God does not provide false empirical information about the origins of organisms. 6. God impressed the laws of nature on matter. 7. God directly created the first 'primordial' life. 8. God did not perform miracles within organic history subsequent to the creation of the first life. 9. A 'distant' God is not morally culpable for natural pain and suffering. 10. The God of special creation, who allegedly performed miracles in organic history, is not plausible given the presence of natural pain and suffering. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/05/charles_darwin_theologian_majo046391.html The role of theology in current evolutionary reasoning - Paul A. Nelson - Biology and Philosophy, 1996, Volume 11, Number 4, Pages 493-517 Excerpt: Evolutionists have long contended that the organic world falls short of what one might expect from an omnipotent and benevolent creator. Yet many of the same scientists who argue theologically for evolution are committed to the philosophical doctrine of methodological naturalism, which maintains that theology has no place in science. Furthermore, the arguments themselves are problematical, employing concepts that cannot perform the work required of them, or resting on unsupported conjectures about suboptimality. Evolutionary theorists should reconsider both the arguments and the influence of Darwinian theological metaphysics on their understanding of evolution. http://www.springerlink.com/content/n3n5415037038134/?MUD=MP From Philosopher to Science Writer: The Dissemination of Evolutionary Thought - May 2011 Excerpt: The powerful theory of evolution hangs on this framework of thought that mandates naturalism. The science is weak but the metaphysics are strong. This is the key to understanding evolutionary thought. The weak arguments are scientific and the strong arguments, though filled with empirical observation and scientific jargon, are metaphysical. The stronger the argument, the more theological or philosophical. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2011/05/from-philosopher-to-science-writer.html
Dr. Hunter comments on the dilemma this line of argumentation presents for the atheist:
“The strength of materialism is that it obviates the problem of evil altogether. God need not be reconciled with evil, because neither exists. Therefore the problem of evil is no problem at all.,,, And of course since there is no evil, the materialist must, ironically, not use evil to justify atheism. The problem of evil presupposes the existence of an objective evil-the very thing the materialist seems to deny. The argument (from Theodicy) that led to materialism is exhausted just when it is needed most. In other words, the problem of evil is only generated by the prior claims that evil exists. One cannot then conclude, with Dawkins, that there is ‘no evil and no good’ in the universe.,,, The fact that evolution’s acceptance hinges on a theological position would, for many, be enough to expel it from science. But evolution’s reliance on metaphysics is not its worst failing. Evolution’s real problem is not its metaphysics but its denial of its metaphysics.,,, Cornelius Hunter – Darwin’s God – pg. 154 & 159 http://www.amazon.com/Darwins-God-Evolution-Problem-Evil/dp/1587430118
Perhaps some atheists are incredulous that they could possibly be using a self-defeating theological line of argumentation to try to make their case for atheism, but the evidence is overwhelming that this is how it is, here are a few examples: In this following video Dr. William Lane Craig is surprised to find that evolutionary biologist Dr. Ayala uses theological argumentation in his book to support Darwinism and invites him to present evidence, any evidence at all, that Darwinism can generate functional complexity:
Refuting The Myth Of 'Bad Design' vs. Intelligent Design - William Lane Craig - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIzdieauxZg
Here, at about the 55:00 minute mark in the following video, Phillip Johnson sums up his, in my opinion, excellent lecture by noting that the refutation of his book, 'Darwin On Trial', in the Journal Nature, the most prestigious science journal in the world, was a theological argument about what God would and would not do and therefore Darwinism must be true, and the critique from Nature was not a refutation based on any substantiating scientific evidence for Darwinism that one would expect to be brought forth in such a prestigious venue to support such a, supposedly, well supported scientific theory:
Darwinism On Trial (Phillip E. Johnson) – lecture video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwj9h9Zx6Mw
And in the following quote, Dr. John Avise explicitly, apparently completely oblivious to his Theological presuppositions, uses Theodicy to try to make the case for Darwinism:
It Is Unfathomable That a Loving Higher Intelligence Created the Species – Cornelius Hunter - June 2012 Excerpt: "Approximately 0.1% of humans who survive to birth carry a duplicon-related disability, meaning that several million people worldwide currently are afflicted by this particular subcategory of inborn metabolic errors. Many more afflicted individuals probably die in utero before their conditions are diagnosed. Clearly, humanity bears a substantial health burden from duplicon-mediated genomic malfunctions. This inescapable empirical truth is as understandable in the light of mechanistic genetic operations as it is unfathomable as the act of a loving higher intelligence. [112]" - Dr. John Avise - "Inside The Human Genome" There you have it. Evil exists and a loving higher intelligence wouldn’t have done it that way. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2012/06/awesome-power-behind-evolution-it-is.html
What’s more ironic is that Dr. John Avise’s theological argumentation from the overwhelming rate of detrimental mutations to the human genome for Darwinism turns out to be, in fact (without Darwinian Theological blinders on), a very powerful ‘scientific’ argument against Darwinism:
http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2012/06/evolution-professor-special-creation.html?showComment=1340994836963#c5431261417430067209
Anyone who has debated atheists over Darwinism for any length of time on the internet can readily identify with the following comment made by Eric:
"One of the great ironies of the atheist mind is that no-one is more cock-sure of exactly what God is like, exactly what God would think, exactly what God would do, than the committed atheist. Of course he doesn’t believe in God, but if God did exist, he knows precisely what God would be like and how God would behave. Or so he thinks",,," Eric - UD Blogger
Here is a very good video that exposes the Theological roots of Darwinism:
The Descent of Darwin - Pastor Joe Boot - (The Theodicy of Darwinism) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKJqk7xF4-g
Thus, though Dawkins and company may deny God, the fact of the matter is that they are absolutely dependent on a fairly sophomoric conception of God in order to make their argument from Theodicy to work in the first place. bornagain77
Can we, finally, abandon any pretense that UncommonDescent is Scientific ? Its theology all the way down. Graham2
KRock: Absolutely - that evidence would be more a combination of #1 and #7, or fall somewhere between. I consider such things to be supportive of the existence of god even if it doesn't directly implicate a god. William J Murray
Given that virtually all of the available evidence and argument falls on the side of theism, and none on the side of atheism, one must provide support for their position that it is not at least more likely that a god exists.
Well that's a rather charitable reading of reality!
I’m arguing that atheism is either based on ignorance of the evidence, or it is an irrational or dishonest worldview. Whether or not there is actually a god is irrelevant to that argument.
Uh, what? Your position is that the fact of the matter is irrelevant to the various arguments we might make about the fact. I bow to your Darkside philosophy. LarTanner
Great first post WJM. Question for you and you'll have to forgive my ignorance. When you speak of "Anecdotal evidence", would that also include well documented cases of demoinc possession, such as the case documented by Dr. Gallagher in the 2008 February issue of the New Oxford Review? Link below for anyone interested in reading about it. http://www.wnd.com/2008/03/58835/ KRock
In light of Box’s formulation in comment #7, why?
Box's formulation provides no light, in my opinion. I imagine the professional philosophers here can adequately explain what's wrong with Box's logic.
This suggests that there is a prior need to NOT resort to God.
Well..this prior need to NOT resort to God suggests an even more prior need to NOT NOT resort to God. From where does the second need arise? LarTanner
Box: yes, that's the TL;DR version :) LarTanner asks: "Do you really mean to say that if I profess to be an atheist that I am either intellectually dishonest, irrational, uninformed, or some combination of these?" Yes. That is the case I've made above. LarTanner asks: "Do you really think the seven items given as “evidence in favor of God” are so good and iron-clad that one cannot find all of them rather weak and un-compelling?" No. However, finding the evidence and argument "weak" and "not compelling" doesn't give one the rational basis for a finding that it is more likely that god doesn't exist than does. It only gives one the rational basis to not commit to the conclusion that "god exists". Given that virtually all of the available evidence and argument falls on the side of theism, and none on the side of atheism, one must provide support for their position that it is not at least more likely that a god exists. LarTanner says: "It seems to me ..." I don't really care how things "seem" to you. I'm interested in rational debate. Also, I'm not telling you there is a god; I'm arguing that atheism is either based on ignorance of the evidence, or it is an irrational or dishonest worldview. Whether or not there is actually a god is irrelevant to that argument. William J Murray
LarTanner:
That’s very nice that you think so, but if you want me to accept your view or even take it seriously, you need to bring much, much more to the table.
In light of Box's formulation in comment #7, why? Also:
...without needing to resort a God or gods.
Why? This suggests that there is a prior need to NOT resort to God. Where does this prior need arise, particularly in light of WJM's OP, and Box's summary in comment #7? MrMosis
Welcome, WJM. Your comments have always been absolutely fascinating, I look forward to reading more of your thoughts. nullasalus
Premises and Conclusion: 1. There is no evidence against the existence of God. 2. There is at the very least some evidence in favor of the existence of God. 3. Therefor it is more probable that god exists than that God does not exist. Box
Do you really mean to say that if I profess to be an atheist that I am either intellectually dishonest, irrational, uninformed, or some combination of these? Do you really think the seven items given as "evidence in favor of God" are so good and iron-clad that one cannot find all of them rather weak and un-compelling? It seems to me that we have very good ways of formulating worldviews, morality, government and society without needing to resort a God or gods. I'm not making a positive assertion that no gods exist so much as acknowledging that you tell me there are gods (or is a God, as the case may be). That's very nice that you think so, but if you want me to accept your view or even take it seriously, you need to bring much, much more to the table. LarTanner
JDH: There are various kinds of idealists who reject materialism, but such highly philosophical forms are not in fashion these days. KF kairosfocus
BTW - I think that "belief in materialism" is a self-refuting argument, because if materialism is true then "belief" is merely an illusion since belief implies choice and (I believe) choice is excluded in a materialistic world. If belief in atheism logically implies materialism, then it suffers from the same internal inconsistency and one has to declare either atheism wrong or logic wrong. JDH
I have a general question. Is it possible to believe in either strong or weak atheism and reject materialism? I have never understood people who claim they are atheists, but not materialists. I look at this as more intellectual dishonesty. I think that logic demands that once you admit that something exists beyond materialism, there must be at least one God. Any answers for me? JDH
Thanks for the kind words, help & input, KF. I actually presented this basic argument in several other forums over the past few years, and have never seen anything more than superficial (and largely irrational) responses - a lot of rhetoric and ridicule, but nothing substantial. Which points, IMO, towards the conclusion that a lot of atheism (especially in the West) is fueled by emotion (outrage that evil exists, anti-authoritarianism) and not sound logic or evidence. William J Murray
WJM: Welcome aboard, mon! You are raising some pretty serious issues about the reasonableness of atheism, which is a significant challenge to a view and agenda that are running pretty rampant these days. Let us see what the atheists have to say, and where that will lead. KF PS: Here are my own reflections on the reasonableness challenges of evolutionary materialism, which is a key feature of the relevant forms of atheism we deal with. (There are some oddball varieties out there and some variant forms that are more important in other civilisations or eras, but the kinds that are common like to wear the lab coat.) kairosfocus

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