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Defining Design

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As this is my first OP, I thought it would be good to start with something really basic. And as I like explicit definitions in discussions, what could be better than discussing the definition of design in a place dedicated to the theory of Intelligent Design?

Designing a birdMaybe it is too basic to be interesting, but I  believe that is not the case. Indeed, an explicit definition of design is rarely discussed, even here, and when it is discussed it seems to be very controversial, not only with our opponents, but even among those who are in the field of ID.

I have tried many times to give my personal definition of design, in the course of different discussions here. I am offering it again in this post, with some further detail, hoping to encourage the discussion on this important issue. All comments are welcome, and alternative definitions will be appreciated.

One point, IMO, cannot be denied: there is no sense in debating theories about Intelligent Design and its inference, if we have no clear idea of what we mean with the word design.

After giving my definition of design, I will give some brief definitions of what a design system, and a non design system are, with some examples of the application of those concepts to our biological issues about OOL and the evolution of life.

 

My definition

Let’s start with a few premises. “Design” is a process, well described by the verb “to design”, a transitive verb which implies a subject and an object. So, our definition will have to clearly identify:

a) What a designer is

b) What a designed object is

c) What the design process is

Moreover, what we are looking for here is a definition, not an interpretation or an explanation. IOWs, we must remain in the field of description of facts, and avoid as much as possible theories or specific worldviews. The only purpose of our definition is to be able to correctly use our words in our theories, not to imply our theories. In particular, in ID theory we need to be clear about what design is, because our theory is about recognizing and inferring design. Therefore, our definition must be an empirical description, and nothing else.

Now, to understand well the scenario of what “design” means in common language, let’s look at some very broad definitions from the Internet. Just to be original, let’s start with Wikipedia:

Design is the creation of a plan or convention for the construction of an object or a system…

More formally design has been defined as follows.

(noun) a specification of an object, manifested by an agent, intended to accomplish goals, in a particular environment, using a set of primitive components, satisfying a set of requirements, subject to constraints;

(verb, transitive) to create a design, in an environment (where the designer operates)[2]

Another definition for design is a roadmap or a strategic approach for someone to achieve a unique expectation.”

Not bad, I would say!

Now, dictionary.com:

de·sign

verb (used with object)

1. to prepare the preliminary sketch or the plans for (a work to be executed), especially to plan the formand structure of: to design a new bridge.

2. to plan and fashion artistically or skillfully.

3. to intend for a definite purpose: a scholarship designed for foreign students.

4. to form or conceive in the mind; contrive; plan: The prisoner designed an intricate escape.

5. to assign in thought or intention; purpose: He designed to be a doctor.

(First five definitions. It goes on with others.)

And, finally, the Free Online Dictionary:

de·sign

v. de·signedde·sign·ingde·signs

v.tr.

1.

a. To conceive or fashion in the mind; invent: design a good excuse for not attending the conference.

b. To formulate a plan for; devise: designed a marketing strategy for the new product.

2. To plan out in systematic, usually graphic form: design a building; design a computer program.

3. To create or contrive for a particular purpose or effect: a game designed to appeal to all ages.

4. To have as a goal or purpose; intend.

5. To create or execute in an artistic or highly skilled manner.

 

So, these are important premises, because it is highly desirable that our definition be truly compatible with the common meaning of the word.

At this point, I will give my explicit definition:

Design is a process where a conscious agent subjectively represents in his own consciousness some form and then purposefully outputs that form, more or less efficiently, to some material object.

We call the process “design”. We call the conscious agent who subjectively represents the initial form “designer”. We call the material object, after the process has taken place, “designed object”.

It looks simple, doesn’it? Well, it is simple. And I believe that it satisfies all our right expectations.

The above image of a girl in the act of drawing is a very good illustration of that. The girl is the designer, the paper with the drawing of a bird is the designed object. The photo has captured the empirical process of design.

Obviously, we are assuming here that the girl has subjectively represented the bird in her  consciousness before designing it (is anyone objecting to that assumption?).

The following diagram sums up the main concepts in the definition.

 

Design

 

Now, just a few clarifications, to anticipate inevitable objections:

1) I imply no special theory of what consciousness is, and no particular worldview. The only thing required is the recognition that conscious agents exist, and that they have conscious, subjective representations.

2) No explicit inference about causality is necessary here. Although it seems quite reasonable that the represented form is, at least in part, the cause of the form in the designed object, that assumption is not really necessary. The important point is that the final form must arise in the subjective representation first, and then in the designed object.

3) Nothing is stated in the definition about complexity. The designed form can be simple or complex, functional or not. The important point is that it is represented, and that the designer has the purpose of outputting it.

4) Nothing is stated here about intelligence. That is to simplify this post. The problem of intelligence can be dealt with separately.

5) Nothing is implied here about free will. While free will is a natural integration of a design theory, it is not necessary to assume its existence to define design.

 

Design systems

We can define a system “a design system” if, given an initial state A (which can be designed or not designed, indifferently), the evolution of the system in time, starting form A and up to another state A1, includes one or more design processes.

Conversely, we can define a system “a non design system” if, given an initial state A (which can be designed or not designed, indifferently), the evolution of the system in time, starting form A and up to another state A1, does not include any design process.

To exemplify, let’s take the problem of OOL. Here, the initial state A could be our planet at the beginning of its existence, and A1 our planet at a time when life in a specific form we know, for example prokaryotes, already exists. So, in this case the problem is simply: can the transition from A to A1 be satisfactorily explained as a non design system, or is it best explained as a design system?

If, on the other hand, our problem is the evolution of life after OOL, then our initial state A will be our planet with its prokaryotic life only, and our final state A1 can be our planet as it is today, with all the life forms we know. Again, the problem is: can the transition from A to A1 be satisfactorily explained as a non design system, or is it best explained as a design system? If we express the problem in this way, the existence of prokaryotic life is no more part of what we have to explain, because the problem we are considering for the moment is only the transition from A to A1, and in A that kind of life is already present.

Well, that’s all for the moment.

 

Comments
GP (By the way, is Timaeus aware of his new condition?) I fear that he may not be. I hope someone contacts him by e-mail. Does anyone know how to reach him?StephenB
March 17, 2014
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InVivoVeritas: I would like to clarify that I am a big fan of Dembski's explanatory filter. My reasonings about the design inference in proteins are nothing else but a simple application of the explanatory filter. So, I agree with what you say. It is absolutely true that, in practice, design is the complement of regularity and chance, because design is the only known cause for objects whose form cannot be explained as the result of regularity and/or chance (IOWs, for objects exhibiting CSI or dFSCI). But the problem is, how can we affirm that? On what is our confidence that "design is the only known cause for objects whose form cannot be explained as the result of regularity and/or chance" based? Dembski's approach seems to avoid that point. We could believe that design is the complement of regularity and chance simply because that is a logical necessity. But that is not the case. There is no immediate logical reason why "design" should be the only logical possibility once we exclude regularity and chance. Indeed, we cannot define design as "the complement of regularity and chance" and then use the exclusion of regularity and chance (the explanatory filter" to infer design. That would be self-referential, and our brilliant opponents on the other side have tried their best to attack that concept to prove that ID is self-referential. But the simple truth is that ID is not self-referential, because design can be perfectly and independently defined as the outcome of a process which starts with a conscious representation. After that, we can observe objects and classify them as designed or non designed, provided that the process by which they originate can be observed directly. That gives us a vast class of known designed and non designed objects, whose properties we can examine. That's how we come to the empirical result that non designed objects can be explained by regularity and chance, while a definite subset of designed objects (those exhibiting CSI / dFSCI) can't. That's how the explanatory filter can be founded on empirical reasoning, and the design inference becomes absolutely non self-referential. There is no doubt that the explanatory filter works perfectly. It a diagnostic tool with 100% specificity, and that is really amazing. But we need to explain and justify how we measure that specificity. And only an independent definition of "what design is" allows us to objectively measure the results of the application of the explanatory filter for design inference in terms of specificity. Defining design a priori as the complement of regularity and chance would be self-referential, and will not work. IOWs, for those familiar with a sensitivity/specificity context, the direct observation of a design process, where the form of the object originates from a conscious representation, is the gold standard to affirm design, while the inference by the explanatory filter (IOWs, the elimination of regularity and chance as reasonable explanations of the observed form) is the test, the diagnostic tool whose sensitivity and specificity are being evaluated. We need both the gold standard and the test, otherwise our reasoning has no sense. And the gold standard and the test must be different processes, independent one from the other.gpuccio
March 17, 2014
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I am personally inclined to go for formal, clear definitions and concept delimitations when trying to achieve clarity in a particular problem domain. And I see gpuccio’s proposal engaged on this type of approach and appreciate it. I guess though it might need to be farther developed or researched in order to achieve a more practical or usefulness value. Reflecting for the first time on the terse design definition from Dembski quoted by scordova: “ …design as the complement of regularity and chance” I find it really brilliant for the following reasons: a. it is very general b. it is very simple c. can be used as a very fine and adequate discriminator of design. Think for a moment that this definition is like the main tool of a trade in the backpack of a “design-detection” scientist called to investigate a “design detection” case somewhere in the middle of the nature in a particular place. Once on the site he takes out the design detection tool and – using it the same way a Geiger-Muller device is used to detect radiation – applies the simple formula and gets rather quickly to a pretty clear conclusion. - May the artifact on the ground be considered the result of chance? (fire, wind, earthquake, ice melting, etc. ) - May the artifact of the ground is just a repeated pattern form that –again - may it be explained by the forces of nature or hazards of nature? - The specific circumstances for the case – need to be considered – by the scientist when applying the detection discrimination tool: is the site on the sea-shore where the action of waves, tsunamis and wind should be part of the picture? Just to illustrate the kind of cases our “design detector” scientist may be called to resolve: a. Three stones of about same size are found arranged perfectly aligned on a beach b. Ten stones of about same size are found arranged perfectly aligned on a beach (optional: and there is about one feet distance between the them) c. Three steps are found sculpted in a stony face of a mountain d. Ten steps are found sculpted in a stony face of a mountain (optional: and the height and width of each step is about one feet) e. It was found that some reeds on the shore of a lake produce two pitches of sound when wind blows from north-west. The question is if this a natural thing or a designed artifact? f. Our design detector specialist is called on a lake-shore scene where some reed arrangement produces a repeating 5 pitches tune (a sequence of 12 notes using 5 distinct pitches) when the wind blows from north-west. The question is if this a natural thing or a designed artifact? It seems to me that the practical detection of design in nature shouldn’t be such a challenging task as you would think reading these and other comments. The Dembski’s DDT (i.e. Design Detection Tool) should give accurate results when applied reasonably well for the circumstances. And I am proposing an exercise to verify together if this claim is founded or not. I invite anyone to give me a specific scenario (from nature, not criminal forensic cases were human presence and actions can taint the “natural” character of the scene) where the DDT cannot be applied successfully. NOTE: for particular “scenes” is absolutely legitimate that the DDT tool may give an “undetermined” result.InVivoVeritas
March 17, 2014
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Eric
Have you ever seen a play without a playwright, a book without an author, a song without a songwriter, a program without a programmer?
No, I am agreeing with you, not Sal. Note my argument about the sand model on the beach. As you say, there can be no design without a designer. However, it is useful to note that Meyer's empirical argument involves a stronger claim (intelligent agent) than Dembski's argument (intelligent cause). All agents are causes, but not all causes are agents. Of course, in this case, the cause has to be an agent. For some reason, though, Dembski seems hesitant to make that philosophical deduction in the name of science, believing, I gather, that science should limit itself to inductive reasoning. Obviously, I disagree. In my judgment, we should take account of the fact that nature [matter, energy] does not have the creative capacity to design anything, which means that we should reject the prospect that Dembski allows for, namely an impersonal design principle in nature. I take that to be your position as well.StephenB
March 17, 2014
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Eric: Thank you for stating many of the things that I wanted to say. I really appreciate your clarity and objectivity. So, I will re-quote your important points:
the standard dictionary definitions of the English language are quite adequate to describe what we mean by “design”
Absolutely!
At the same time, some ID proponents are loathe to talk about consciousness or intelligence for fear of delving into uncharted waters or into areas less amenable to hard empirical data. I think this tendency stems from some of the broader questions that sometimes surround these terms. What is true intelligence? Does an intelligence actually have to be conscious? Does consciousness necessarily require a level of self-awareness? Can machines be intelligent? And so on. When considering these two latter words – consciousness and intelligence – I think it is helpful to look at the etymology of the words and what they actually mean.
You are perfectly right. I would simply add that, anyway, I have tried to give such a simple, minimal definition of design that I could drop the concept of intelligence from it. That in no way is meant to underestimate the importance of intelligence. I simply believe that the "intelligence" part can be considered separately, and is not indispensable to define design. Moreover, I kept a very basic definition and empiric of consciousness, as "the existence of subjective representations". Again, that allows that the definition may remain completely empirical, and makes any commitment to a specific theory of consciousness unnecessary.
Without getting into a long discussion of what “free will” is or isn’t, at some level a freedom of choice must exist. Without it, there is no choice between contingent possibilities, and as a result no intelligence and no design. That of course is not to say that free will always exists in a vacuum; indeed, it can even operate under extreme duress. But to the extent of the naked ability to choose between x or y, then yes, at least that level of freedom of action is essential to intelligent action and to design.
I completely agree with you. Indeed, I am convinced that only free will in the designer can explain why the design process can generate dFSCI, while nothing else in the universe can. But again, it is important to remember that the concept of free will is not necessary to empirically define design. I stress the concept of definition, because only a clear definition allows us to recognize, by simple observation, what is designed and what is not designed. That empirical phase of observation is needed as a premise to identify properties which point to the design process (like dFSCI). Only then a design inference for those cases where the process cannot be observed will be based on a solid observational, empirical foundation.
I ask again: Can anyone give me an example of something that was designed where there is no designer?
:) :) :)
Have you ever seen a play without a playwright, a book without an author, a song without a songwriter, a program without a programmer? To say that a book was written is to say that there was an author. To say that a musical score was composed is to say there was a composer. To say that a building was built is to say there was a builder. To say that something was designed is to say there was a designer. Sorry, but I’m just not seeing the alleged break point that could, even in principle, allow us to say something was designed, but that there was no designer.
How many smilies am I allowed to use at one time?
Again, let’s please carefully distinguish between the existence of a designer, which is inextricably tied to the concept of something being designed, and the second-order questions like the identity, personality, motives, attributes, purposes, etc. of said designer.
It's as simple as that! The existence of a designer is what is inferred by the design inference. Nothing needs to be known about the designer for that inference. At the same time, "second-order questions like the identity, personality, motives, attributes, purposes, etc. of said designer" are important and can be an integral part of any theory based on a design inference, but in no way are necessary for the design inference. PS: I am looking forward to your OPs! We young authors should definitely support one another :) (By the way, is Timaeus aware of his new condition?)gpuccio
March 17, 2014
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Jaceli123: In a sense, it is true that we must distinguish between the design argument for the universe (IOWs, the cosmological argument for God, especially in its modern aspect of the fine tuning argument) and the design argument for biological information. Both are strong and valid arguments, and they share much. But there is a difference. The argument for a design inference for the origin of biological information is about the scientific explanation of something which happens in time and space. Life originates (probably) on our planet, and at a certain time of its natural history. Each new species originates on some part of our planet, and at a certain time. Therefore, ID theory for biological information is wholly scientific and wholly empirical: it is a reasoning about facts, facts which share all the characteristics of other facts (events in space and time). So, what is different in the design argument for the whole universe? Not much. The origin of the universe can be considered a fact, after all. If we accept the Big Bang scenario, we can say that the Big Bang happened. But here we find a small problem: the fact of the Big Bang happened, but not in time and space. On the contrary, it is the fact of the Big Bang which generates time and space (at least as we know them). Is that a problem? No, but it is a difference. One thing is to try to explain common facts, another thing to try to explain the Fact of all Facts. More in general, what I mean is that in any theory of the whole universe, we are trying to explain the whole reality we know of. There is nothing wrong in that, but I would say that our explanatory arguments for such a problem, while certainly remaining firmly grounded in scientific knowledge, must inevitably become strictly philosophical at a certain point. After all, we are discussing the origin of the whole system we can observe: the fact itself that our mind can conceive such a challenge is in itself a philosophical clue of our transcendental nature.gpuccio
March 16, 2014
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Stephen:
I hold that both arguments are equally unassailable.
Yes! That's exactly the point :) Some people seem to avoid the simple fact that the weaker claim logically implies the stronger claim. We cannot have design without a designer, unless we leave "design" as an undefined word, which can live in its own mythical reality, or even worse unless we redefine it to mean what it does not mean (à la compatibilism). Design is the process which starts from a designer, and the designed object is the outcome of that process. A designer is, by definition, a conscious being. We don't need to explain what consciousness is to simply recognize that conscious beings exist (a fact) and that designers are conscious beings (a simple truth, implicit in the meaning of the word).gpuccio
March 16, 2014
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StephenB (and Sal):
Yes, it is useful to make a distinction between ID methodologies that make the weaker claim (design is present) and those which make the stronger claim (an intelligent agent was responsible).
I ask again: Can anyone give me an example of something that was designed where there is no designer? Have you ever seen a play without a playwright, a book without an author, a song without a songwriter, a program without a programmer? To say that a book was written is to say that there was an author. To say that a musical score was composed is to say there was a composer. To say that a building was built is to say there was a builder. To say that something was designed is to say there was a designer. Sorry, but I'm just not seeing the alleged break point that could, even in principle, allow us to say something was designed, but that there was no designer. And I don't believe the quote from Dembski was suggesting any such approach. ----- Again, let's please carefully distinguish between the existence of a designer, which is inextricably tied to the concept of something being designed, and the second-order questions like the identity, personality, motives, attributes, purposes, etc. of said designer.Eric Anderson
March 16, 2014
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gpuccio: Congratulations on your first OP. This is an important issue and you raise some good points. A couple of thoughts: First, I have found that the general ideas and principles behind intelligent design are very simple and easily accessible to anyone willing to give it a fair shake. Defining “design” falls into this category, where the standard dictionary definitions of the English language are quite adequate to describe what we mean by “design”. I think you have largely followed that approach, which is appropriate. We could perhaps quibble about your particular definition, but my real purpose for now is to agree with your general approach. There are two additional words that come up regularly when we are trying to discuss design, in particular “intelligent design.” Those words are “consciousness” and “intelligence.” I see that many people get hung up on these words. Some ID critics insist that before ID can be taken seriously these words need to be defined to the nth degree, with a be-all-and-end-all definition that satisfies all parties. Unfortunately, such an attitude betrays a level of hyperskepticism and a pedantic demand that is not required of other fields. At the same time, some ID proponents are loathe to talk about consciousness or intelligence for fear of delving into uncharted waters or into areas less amenable to hard empirical data. I think this tendency stems from some of the broader questions that sometimes surround these terms. What is true intelligence? Does an intelligence actually have to be conscious? Does consciousness necessarily require a level of self-awareness? Can machines be intelligent? And so on. When considering these two latter words – consciousness and intelligence – I think it is helpful to look at the etymology of the words and what they actually mean. Consciousness literally means “with knowledge”. Intelligence literally means “to choose between” contingent possibilities. If we think of them in that limited sense (setting aside for a moment all the navel gazing we could engage in about levels of intelligence, artificial intelligence, self-awareness and the like), if we consider these words in this original fundamental sense, then it seems clear that any design process, indeed any designer, must incorporate both knowledge and the ability to choose. The former being the mental knowledge, the latter being the capacity to act on that knowledge. As a result, when all three words – design, intelligence, consciousness – are clearly understood in their most fundamental sense, I think it becomes quite clear what we are talking about. ---- Just one quick thing that jumped out at me from your anticipated objection #5: Without getting into a long discussion of what “free will” is or isn’t, at some level a freedom of choice must exist. Without it, there is no choice between contingent possibilities, and as a result no intelligence and no design. That of course is not to say that free will always exists in a vacuum; indeed, it can even operate under extreme duress. But to the extent of the naked ability to choose between x or y, then yes, at least that level of freedom of action is essential to intelligent action and to design.Eric Anderson
March 16, 2014
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I have a question about design in the universe. How can we infer that the universe is designed when its different than man made objects? A chair is made of peices but the universe is made of space time! Source: http://youtu.be/TUi1Baom9RQJaceli123
March 16, 2014
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Sal
I opt for arguing weaker claim because it is unassailable, even though I believe the stronger claim.
I hold that both arguments are equally unassailable.
If one doen’t really want to believe the stronger claim they won’t, not even Michael Denton, David Berlinski, Jack Trevors, Fred Hoyle, Robert Jastrow — some of the founding fathers (if perhaps unwittingly) of ID.
The key words here are "want to believe." Some (for emotional reasons) may not be disposed to accept the stronger claim, but that doesn't mean that it is any less compelling from a logical standpoint. If we go to the sea shore and find a sand model of the White House, we know two things: [a] Wind, water, and erosion did not form the model by accident (the weaker claim), and [b] An intelligent agent conceived and designed the model with apriori intent (the stronger claim). The difference here in not in the relative strength of arguments (they are equally strong) but in the demands that the latter argument places on our moral conscience.StephenB
March 16, 2014
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I say Intelligent Design is about the design, which means there was a designer but the designer is outside the scope of ID. If someone can't accept something so simple I will stand my ground and beat them with it until they get it or leave. It's too cold to go anywhere, my sandals are in storage and besides my legs are sore.Joe
March 16, 2014
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seventrees, there are other methods than applications of alphabet soup to determine whether or not the paint blot was intentional or an accident. For one you could just ask the artist! :) But the real question is why would anyone want to determine if it was an accident or not?Joe
March 16, 2014
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I opt for arguing weaker claim because it is unassailable, even though I believe the stronger claim. If one doen't really want to believe the stronger claim they won't, not even Michael Denton, David Berlinski, Jack Trevors, Fred Hoyle, Robert Jastrow -- some of the founding fathers (if perhaps unwittingly) of ID. I don't hold it against them, I respect them, and lament that Jastrow went to his grave possibly a materialist. I almost wept when I saw Jastrow's interview in the bonus features of the Privileged Planet DVD because it was Jastrow's writings that kept me believing in God in my darkest hours. The Pharisees witness Lazarus rise from the dead and it motivated them not to bow before God but instead to want to kill both Lazarus and Jesus. So is my opinion about people's attitudes of ID. You can present your case, but at some point no amount of either indirect nor direct evidence will be persuasive. Even Dawkins finally admitted it here: Dawkins now convinced even if he saw a miracle he wouldn't believe in God. I say, "if there is a Design, there is a Designer." If one can't accept something that simple, I just "throw off the dust on my sandals and go to another town that will receive the message". 11 years ago, when I was just new to ID, a young agnostic college student approached me and confided she witnessed a miracle but wasn't sure if what she witnessed was real. She was curious if there was evidence outside of her experience of miracles. I sensed she would not believe creationists works, so I referred her to the work of two agnostics Michael Denton and Robert Jastrow. I had little contact with her after suggesting the books. A couple months later I saw her in church. I learned she likely accepted ID within maybe a few weeks after reading Jastrow's book and became a Christian 6 weeks later through a Bible study with her friends. She said the books I recommended were instrumental in her conversion. For a couple years later when I'd occasionally dine at her school's cafeteria I'd see her reading her Bible or sharing it with others. The irony of course is Jastrow and Denton are agnostics. We can mathematically show something resembles a design. We can circumstantially argue that it's properties regress to some intelligent agencies, but if people don't believe or refuse to consider it, they'll find a way to try to close their eyes to it. You can see for yourself the rationalizations some will go to avoid even getting close to a reasonable assertion: A Statistics Question for Nick Matzke or Law of Large Numbers vs. Keiths. I don't mind going the extra mile in many cases because it give me practice strengthening my arguments. I felt I found a stronger argument, for example by resorting to expectation values and large numbers. It makes for simpler beginner type arguments that one can build the more complex stuff like CSI.scordova
March 16, 2014
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Thanks for your reply, Gpuccio.
If indeed it was designed intentionally, that would be a false negative, in accord with the principle of low sensitivity of the procedure.
I should have stated that it was intentional. At comment 9, you stated:
That’s why the design inference based on dFSCI has 100% specificity, but low sensitivity. IOWs, we have no false positives, but many false negatives. That is the result of choosing a very exacting threshold to categorize dFSI in binary form (complex and non complex).
In my example, anyone can say it was an accident. So, I really want to understand your point. I brought up comment 9 as I think it is related to your reply to my case.seventrees
March 16, 2014
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Also, I would like to congratulate GP for writing an excellent post. Clear definitions and careful distinctions are the life blood of rational discourse.StephenB
March 16, 2014
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Hi Stephen: Thank you for your very good contribution. I am absolutely for the stronger claim! :)gpuccio
March 16, 2014
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seventrees: I am happy you already found the answer. In that case, the second painting would not allow a design inference, because it is not complex. If indeed it was designed intentionally, that would be a false negative, in accord with the principle of low sensitivity of the procedure.gpuccio
March 16, 2014
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Joe: No, I have not read that book. I will try to read it.gpuccio
March 16, 2014
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Sal quoting Dembski
Nevertheless, it is useful to separate design from theories of intelligence and intelligent agency.
Yes, it is useful to make a distinction between ID methodologies that make the weaker claim (design is present) and those which make the stronger claim (an intelligent agent was responsible). We need to know that the first approach is, in part, based on mathematical science promoted by William Dembski and the second approach is, in part, based on historical science as promoted by Stephen Meyer. Each method, however, is compatible with the other. It’s all part of the diversity of ID’s big tent, which also finds its unity in a definition: Some features in nature are better explained by an intelligent cause (notice the word “agent” wasn’t used) than by a naturalistic cause. On the other hand, it is also useful to point out that the stronger claim is the only one that really matters since it answers the “So what” question: “I just flipped a coin five hundred times and each time it came up heads.” –“So what?” –“So, somebody is intentionally using a two headed coin.” “I just detected a functional formation in this piece of wood and stone.””—“So what?” "So, an ancient hunter designed it as a spear.” “I just found dFSCI in this DNA molecule.” – “So what.”-- “So, it was designed by an intelligent agent.” If we don’t answer the “so what” question, that is, if we don’t specify the cause, then we really haven’t said anything important. Clearly, we cannot expect our adversaries to fill in the missing blanks for us. Ours is an exercise in leadership, not Socratic dialogue. More to the point, the stronger claim can be justified just as easily as the weaker claim. Once your adversary admits that no one can get twenty-five royal flushes in a row, he has also admitted that an intelligent agent had to be the cause of the observed pattern. It follows as surely as the night follows the day. Among other things, it should be evident that the “appearance of design,” which is found only in an artifact after the process the produced it has started, is different from “real design,” which informs the process and must logically precede it. Real design precedes the process; apparent design is a product of the process. When we make the distinction between real design and apparent design, we are also, and at the same time, making the distinction between the presence of intentionality and the absence of intentionality. Matter, nature, or nature’s laws cannot intend or design anything. Design requires Imagination and creativity, both of which can only come from conscious, purposeful, intelligent agents and from nowhere else.StephenB
March 16, 2014
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gpuccio- Understood and my apologies for getting ahead of your discussion. BTW have you read Del's book "Nature, Design and Science"?Joe
March 16, 2014
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I just found out that you already answered my question to Joe.seventrees
March 16, 2014
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Greetings. Gpuccio, I agree with what much you have written in my first reading. I have a question about the design inference: Imagine two paintings. One is the Mona Lisa, and the other is just red paint from a bottle which was spilled on the art board. The spill was due to a hit with the leg. The thing is that that painting could also be explained as an accident, unless someone shows proof it was deliberate. Isn't the design inference to distinguish between these two examples?seventrees
March 16, 2014
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Joe:
Some things can look designed without being designed. That was Dembski’s point- that we need to be able to determine real design from apparent design. Necessity and chance can produce apparent design.
There is no doubt about that! If we cannot observe the design process directly, we cannot infer design unless the functional complexity in the observed object is very high. This is the core of ID theory. That's why the design inference based on dFSCI has 100% specificity, but low sensitivity. IOWs, we have no false positives, but many false negatives. That is the result of choosing a very exacting threshold to categorize dFSI in binary form (complex and non complex). But, in my post, I have not discussed the design inference, only design definition. IOWs, I have considered those cases where we can assert design because we directly observe the process of design. We see that the girl is designing the bird, and we can easily assume that she is representing it before designing it (usually, the designer himself can give us that information). The problem is that we cannot even define what design is when we observe the process itself, if we have not the will to admit that what characterizes design is the conscious representation that precedes the output of the form. IOWs, there is no possible objective definition of design without some reference to conscious events.gpuccio
March 16, 2014
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Look I know that Del Ratzsch isn't Dembski but I urge everyone to read Del's "Nature, Design and Science".Joe
March 16, 2014
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gppucio- Some things can look designed without being designed. That was Dembski's point- that we need to be able to determine real design from apparent design. Necessity and chance can produce apparent design.Joe
March 16, 2014
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Sal:
The challenge is how might someone else determine that something I made is actually designed without knowing me personally.
Then that someone else needs to be able to discern if counterflow or work is present.Joe
March 16, 2014
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Sal: Thank you for the comments. I think you have immediately found some very important problems in the issue. To be sincere, I have always had some difficulties with that definition of Dembski, of design as "the complement of regularity and chance". My problem is, what does it really mean? If we have not defined what design means, that would simply be a statement that anything which is not the product of regularity or of chance is called "designed", but we would remain in complete unawareness of what "designed" means. This is not a logical exclusion. Regularity, chance and design are not mutually exclusive logical categories. The only way we can relate design to regularity and chance is by defining independently what design is, and then proving empirically that some property, which indeed excludes regularity and chance, is consistently associated with design. So, my reasoning has the following steps: a) Define design (the argument of this post) b) Define a property that is empirically connected to design (CSI, or better, for my purposes, dFSCI) c) Use that property for the design inference when the design origin of the object cannot be directly verified. So, as you can see, the design inference must rest safely, IMO, on a clear definition of what design is. Empirically, we can then say that design is the complement of chance and regularity, because we have empirically verified that all cases exhibiting dFSCI are consistently the product of design (as independently defined). This approach is entirely empirical, and has resisted brilliantly (IMO) all the attacks of our very good opponents, for example at TSZ. I am well aware that the fear of "committing to a doctrine of intelligent agency" is the reason why many in ID (including Dembski) have avoided that kind of definition. But I don't agree with that. I have tried to show in my post that my definition and approach do not require any commitment to a doctrine of intelligent agency. I have even avoided the concept of intelligence in the definition, to make that more clear. The only commitment which is really necessary is a commitment to empiricism and to realism of thought. I agree with your comments about OOL. But I am very confident that, with the right approach, it is rather easy to make a safe design inference, which obeys all sound scientific rules, for practically all proteins which have a minimum length and complexity. PS: Thank you for your appreciation of my English.gpuccio
March 16, 2014
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KF, Sal, UB: Thank you! I am very happy that "with a little help from my friends", I have already become a commented author! :)gpuccio
March 16, 2014
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Congratulations!! GPUpright BiPed
March 16, 2014
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