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Determinism: an idea that just won’t fly

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I have just been listening to a talk on the subject of free will, by the British philosopher Jonathan M. S. Pearce, who contributes to the blog, Debunking Christianity. The talk was given to a meeting of Portsmouth Skeptics in a Pub on 14th June 2012, which was attended by about 50 people. A podcast of the talk is available online here.

In this post, I’d like to focus on what I take to be Jonathan’s key argument against free will. After making this argument, he then goes on to critique dualism and put forward scientific arguments against free will. I have already addressed these criticisms in previous posts, so I won’t be rehashing them here. Instead, I’ll just list the papers, for any readers who may be interested.

Useful background reading on free will

Regular readers of this Web site will know that I have written several posts on the subject of free will, in which I attempted a defense of free will from a dualist perspective, according to which persons (not souls) are capable of holistically interacting with their brains, thereby enabling them to move their bodies. Readers who would like a good summary of why I find this kind of dualism persuasive, and why I find materialism untenable, might find this account of mine beneficial:
The Stumbling Block For A Materialist Account Of Mind: Intentionality, which is section D(vii) of my online book, Embryo and Einstein: Why They’re Equal. For references to articles by other philosophers against materialism, please see section D(viii): Why Intentionality Cannot Be Explained In Purely Physical Terms: A Short Bibliography.

The following posts of mine deal with the actual mechanics of free will, and how it would work:
Why I think the interaction problem is real
How is libertarian free will possible?

Here’s an article on why I consider free will and physical determinism to be incompatible:
Battle of the two Elizabeths: are free will and physical determinism compatible?

Finally, here’s an article which rebuts the major scientific arguments against free will:
Is free will dead?

What assumptions are required to defend libertarian free will?

Jonathan M. S. Pearce defines libertarian free will in terms of the Principle of Alternative Possibilities: if you belierve that there are some choices you have made for which you could have done otherwise, then you believe in libertarian free will.

In my post, Why I think the interaction problem is real, I argued that in order to defend libertarian free will, we need to affirm at least two things:

(i) people can holistically influence their brains; and

(ii) top-down (macro–>micro) causation is real and fundamental.

Additionally, if we find the philosophical arguments against materialism persuasive (see here for a detailed statement of what I consider to be the best of these arguments), then we will also need to acknowledge that:

(iii) some human actions (namely, thoughts and choices) are non-bodily actions, and that by performing these actions, human beings are capable of influencing events occurring in the cells of their bodies.

However, it seems conceivable to me that a materialist who was prepared to accept the notion of holistic top-down causation, while rejecting the view that thoughts and choices are non-bodily actions which holistically influence our brains, could still consistently believe in libertarian free will. So believing in (i) and (ii) but not (iii) is also consistent, for someone who accepts libertarian free will.

Definitions, please!

While listening to Jonathan M. S. Pearce’s argument, I noticed that he used a lot of terms without bothering to define them. If he can’t define the idea of determinism in a rigorous manner, then it makes no sense to say that it is true, and to use that as an argument against libertarian free will. I found myself asking the following questions that I wanted to put to Jonathan:

What’s the universe?
Jonathan humorously began his talk by thanking the universe for having brought everyone in the audience together in this pub. But what is the universe, and by “universe,” does Jonathan mean the entire multiverse or the particular bubble of the multiverse that we happen to live in, or the observable portion of that particular bubble? Some philosophers have seriously argued that the very concept of “the universe” (or if you prefer, the multiverse) is incoherent, and that it cannot be meaningfully defined by us, as it is not an individual: there is no such “thing” as “the universe.” (On the other hand, a cosmologist told me once that cosmology is the scientific attempt to treat the universe as if it were a single object.) Since the universe figures in the definition of determinism, it follows that if the universe cannot be satisfactorily defined, then neither can determinism.

What’s a cause?
This term is vitally important, in the context of any argument for determinism. In particular, is it true by definition that every cause determines its effect? If so, why? In everyday life, we typically find that an effect X is the product of several contributing causes (A, B, C, …), each of which is insufficient to determine the effect. So it seems that the idea of a non-determining cause is a perfectly coherent one. You could try to get round that problem by saying that you’ll define the whole set of contributing causes as the cause of X. But then what you’re saying is that the notion of the totality of causes is logically and/or epistemologically prior to the concept of a partial or contributing cause. This, it seems to me, is putting the cart before the horse.

What’s a causal chain?
Jonathan appealed to this idea several times, in his talk on free will. For instance, he talked about causal chains going all the way back to the Big Bang. Now, I think we can all imagine a causal chain of the form A->B->C->D->… However, this is an atypical case: it’s a purely linear chain, and every link has one and only one immediate predecessor. Typically an event has multiple causes, and a contributing cause for one event is typically also a contributing cause for other events as well. That means that our chain has turned into a complex, tangled grapevine. “No problem,” you might say. “In the end, it all goes back to the Big Bang, doesn’t it?” Well, it might in this universe, but what about in the multiverse as a whole? There may be no single point from which all the various chains converging on a cause originate. If that’s the case, what becomes of the notion of determinism?

Here’s another problem. Chains often contain loops. Is it part of the definition of determinism that there are no loops, in which a present effect has causes which lie in the future as well as the past? If there is even one such loop in the history of the universe, then Jonathan’s notion of determinism no longer holds up. My question is: how do we know that there are no such loops? Is there any law of physics which precludes them, for instance? If so, which one?

What’s a reason? Is a reason the same as a cause?
Throughout his talk, Jonathan argued that every effect needs to have a reason or cause, otherwise it’s random and not free. In the question session afterwards, Jonathan distinguished between two senses of “reason”: a “why” reason (or a purpose or goal), and a “prior causal” reason (or a causal antecedent). He even chided the philosopher C. S. Lewis for failing to make this distinction. (I would agree that that’s a fair criticism of what Lewis said in his famous debate with Elizabeth Anscombe at the Oxford Socratic Club on February 2, 1948, but by the time he wrote “Miracles,” Lewis had had time to formulate a more nuanced argument. Gavin Ortlund has an interesting post on the aftermath of the debate, here. In fact, the philosopher Victor Reppert has recently written a book on Lewis’ argument, and why he considers it sound. But I digress.)

Repeatedly, during his talk, Jonathan argued that our choices must have a reason or cause, otherwise they’re just random. But it seems he is equivocating here. What if our choices have a “why” reason, without having a “prior causal” reason? That seems a perfectly coherent possibility to me. A choice with a “why” reason would not be a random one: it would have a clearly defined goal or purpose.

Jonathan might argue against this possibility by appealing to the principle that every event has a cause. A choice is an event, therefore a choice has a cause. Right? Not so fast. The principle that every event has a cause is arguably true from a scientific standpoint, if one is talking about micro-level events at some point or very small region of space and time. But a choice isn’t an event like that, and you can’t argue that it can be decomposed into a set of events like that, without assuming the truth of reductionism – which is question-begging.

Jonathan might also object: “If you (or your soul) make a choice NOW in order to attain some goal, but nothing causes you to make that choice NOW, then I would argue that your choice is random. Why did you make that choice when you did? Surely that’s a valid question.” The objection assumes that we make choices in time, which is a bit odd, given Jonathan’s preference for a block-theory of time, but we’ll let that pass. The point I want to make is that even if there is some causally determining reason which explains why I made the choice NOW (e.g. someone suddenly walked up to me, held a gun to my head, and said: “Choose A or B!”), that cause wouldn’t need to determine my actual choice. (For instance, the man holding the gun to my head might be supremely indifferent to which option I choose: perhaps he just wants me to decide, because he can’t stand the sight of me dithering.) So my argument that our choices have a “why” reason, without having a causally determining reason, emerges unscathed from this criticism.

What’s a natural law, or law of Nature?
If causes determine their effects, then presumably they do so by virtue of acting in accordance with the laws of Nature. But what is a law of Nature, and what makes it a law which events have to conform to, rather than a mere regularity which events happen to conform to? After all, a general statement which holds true at all times and places might just be true by accident. To use an oft-cited example, it’s probably true that every lump of gold in the history of the universe has a volume of less than a cubic kilometer, but that doesn’t make it a law. Substitute “uranium-235” for “gold,” on the other hand, and I think most of us can see at once that the situation described is impossible, because uranium-235 has a critical mass. But what makes a law impossible to break?

One common answer is to appeal to Noether’s theorem to explain the invariance of laws over space and time. The gist of the theorem is that if a physical system has a corresponding Lagrangian function describing its dynamics, and if this function exhibits a certain kind of symmetry, then it follows automatically that the laws describing that physical system will be invariant across space and time. What this answer is really saying, then, is that the laws of Nature are a product of the mathematics describing the universe itself, at its most fundamental level. Asking why laws of Nature hold is like asking why a square has four sides: it has to, or it wouldn’t be a square.

I don’t buy that, and here’s why. A geometrical object has no contingent properties. Everything we can say about a square follows from its definition. If we look at the universe, on the other hand, it doesn’t appear to be like that. For one thing, its initial conditions are hardly part of its definition: they seem to rather be properties imposed on it. So we’re not living inside some Platonic realm of forms, whose every feature is explicable in terms of their underlying geometry. And if someone were to assert that we are, I’d retort that extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proofs. A few experiments showing that children with this or that gene or environment, tend to turn out in a certain way 20 years down the track (to cite one of Jonathan’s examples in his talk) falls a long way short of proof. All it establishes is that our free will is to some degree constrained – and who would deny that?

The universe, then, has at least some contingent properties. If we are going to speak of the universe as an individual (let’s call it “Alf”), then Alf’s laws are its form, which makes it the kind of individual it is. (I’m using form here to mean “essence”, or more precisely an Aristotelian substantial form.) If Alf had different laws, then it would be a different kind of universe. OK, fine. But if that’s the case, then we are supposing that this universe (Alf) might have been a different kind of universe. Someone or something made Alf the kind of thing it is, thereby endowing it with its essential properties. So instead of a self-sufficient Platonic geometrical form, what we have is an individual that was endowed by someone or something with the nature it possesses. On this picture, the laws of Nature are no longer merely descriptions of its underlying geometry; they are prescriptions (or rules) imposed on an underlying subject (Alf) which could have been made differently. But I would argue that the very concept of a mind-independent prescription makes no sense. It is incoherent. This is an important, because Jonathan wants to argue that if determinism is true, then there cannot be a God who rewards or punishes us for our actions. But if Jonathan cannot define the cosmos without appealing to terms which require us to invoke a God to make sense of them, then his project is doomed from the start. So Jonathan has to offer us an account of laws which explains why they “stick,” without invoking the concept of a rule or prescription – or otherwise he will be implicitly appealing to a Mind behind the cosmos, which he doesn’t want to do.

What’s a path?
In his talk, Jonathan invoked the notion of a path. If the Principle of Alternative Possibilities is true and we have libertarian free will, then we sometimes have two or more paths before us. If determinism is true, then we only have one path. This is a nice metaphor, but it lacks definitional rigor. What exactly is a path? If you want to define it in terms of possibility, then what does “possible” mean? It’s quite a tricky term to define.

What’s determinism?
One explanation Jonathan gave to illustrate the concept of determinism was to appeal to the metaphor of a set of falling dominoes. However, it seems to me that this is nothing more than a handy pictorial image: it might serve as an aid to thought, but never as a substitute for it. We still want to know: what does the term “determinism” mean?

I was very surprised that when Jonathan finally attempted to define determinism, he appealed to the notion of Laplace’s demon: a hypothetical being who knows everything about the laws of Nature and the positions and movements of the particles in the universe, and who, using this information, is able to predict with perfect accuracy, every future state of the cosmos. (I’ll leave the quantum mechanical objections aside here, as some interpretations of quantum mechanics are deterministic.) However, many philosophers would object to Jonathan’s characterization of determinism, arguing that it confuses the notion of determinism with that of predictability: the universe, they contend, might still be determined, even it its behavior is impossible in principle to predict. Perhaps Jonathan might reply that this would still leave the concept of “determinism” undefined, and that determinism can only be made sense of by appealing to the notion of “in principle” predictability. On this point, I think he’s probably correct.

I would argue, though, that Jonathan’s definition founders on the question of whether the existence of Laplace’s demon is possible, given the laws of the cosmos. If he answers “No,” then he is conceding that his definition of determinism presupposes the notion of an entity whose existence is precluded by the very laws of the universe whose infallible efficacy he is trying to explain. In other words, hes sawing off the branch he’s sitting on. But if he answers “Yes,” then he has swapped one God-figure (a retributive judge of every human being), for another God-figure (an omniscient being who knows everything you’ll do, but of course won’t punish you for it, because you couldn’t help it). Now, Jonathan might prefer God-2 (Laplace’s demon) to God-1: at least he won’t have to worry about Hell, although he’ll have to give up on the idea of Heaven. But it does seem that if you have to bring in a God-figure (whether actual or merely possible hardly matters here) to explain a theory which is meant to dispense with the very idea of God, then you haven’t gained anything, in terms of explanatory simplicity. You still have to invoke at least a notional God, to make sense of your cosmos. And I would ask: what’s the point of that?

I conclude that the concept of determinism has yet to be given an adequately rigorous formulation. Appealing to the notion of determinism in order to discredit the idea of libertarian free will is therefore a misguided enterprise, doomed from the start.

A short comment on Jonathan’s argument

So, what was the argument put forward by Jonathan for determinism? In essence, it was that a choice is an event, and that if an event is not caused, it is random. But a random event is not a choice, so our choices must be caused. Moreover, our choices must be caused in a deterministic fashion, otherwise there would be no reason why I chose (say) A rather than B, which would again make my choice of A rather than B a random one. But a choice which is caused in a deterministic fashion isn’t a free choice in the libtertarian sense, so by a reductio ad absurdum, we are forced to conclude that libertarian free will is impossible.

Now, it seems to me that Jonathan is implicitly appealing to a rationality norm here: that for any state of affairs where there are two possibilities, the question, “Why A rather than B?” is always a legitimate one to pose. And when Jonathan asks “Why?” he isn’t looking for a reason. He’s looking for a cause that would answer the question.

But if Jonathan thinks that this question deserves an answer, then he is assuming the very thing that he is trying to prove: namely, that for every option selected, there is a determining cause. This is what is called begging the question.

If someone asks me why I chose A rather than B, and if A and B are both ends rather than means, then it is surely enough to answer that I chose A because I liked A rather than B – which is quite different from saying that I chose A because my desire for A was stronger than my desire for B. That kind of answer is a mechanistic one. But choices are not mechanistic things.

Comments
It seems to me that commands, as in "thou shalt" and "thou shalt not," if they do not presuppose freedom of will to either obey or disobey, would be absurd. For instance, receiving the directive, "And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you," I now have freewill choices to make, do I not? Whether to exhibit kindness or unkindness, hardheartedness or tenderheartedness, forgiveness or unforgiveness. If I do not have freewill choices to make, having received such a commandment, then what is it that I do have?jstanley01
October 14, 2012
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M. Holcumbrink, Thank you for your comments. Before I address your points, there's one general observation I'd like to make. No-one has risen to the challenge I issued towards the end of my post, of defining determinism rigorously. My central critique of Jonathan M. S. Pearce's position was not that his arguments were bad, but that his philosophical position was so imprecisely defined that it could not be meaningfully considered true or false. Perhaps you can remedy the deficiencies in his formulation; if so, I look forward to hearing from you. You made a valid point about delayed gratification. But the key point here is "gratification". The fact is that we can choose a variety of goals that could not (from a purely materialistic perspective) be considered gratifying. Some people do things for the sake of being famous long after they're dead. Other people do things for the sake of building up the world's store of scientific knowledge, even though it means living a life of poverty under cramped and uncomfortable conditions. Still others sacrifice themselves to art, in a very ego-less sense: they literally become the characters they are portraying on stage, forgetting themselves and their identity in the process. And approximately half the world's population believes in some sort of Heaven, which is not in the least gratifying. Joyful, yes, but gratifying, no. For in order to enter Heaven, you have to conquer your desire for gratification. You rightly argue that our reason is what distinguishes us from the beasts. But with reason comes the ability to critically evaluate our desires, and to judge that there are some things which we should not desire, before we make our final choice. To characterize this process as a weighing-up of competing desires is to trivialize the act of choice. Finally, as regards FCSI, I consider it to be quantitatively definable because it is based on the sequential and structural properties of systems we find in Nature. And there is a genetic program which regulates the development of the human embryo into an adult human being. The fact that no-one has found any program which regulates our choices speaks for itself, as does the fact that no-one has found any place in the brain where desires are weighed. To speak of desires as being weighed is, I submit, mixing metaphors illegitimately.vjtorley
October 14, 2012
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Because the most important point you make, the crux if you will, is this:
If someone asks me why I chose A rather than B, and if A and B are both ends rather than means, then it is surely enough to answer that I chose A because I liked A rather than B – which is quite different from saying that I chose A because my desire for A was stronger than my desire for B. That kind of answer is a mechanistic one. But choices are not mechanistic things.
And
If A and B are both ends which are desirable for their own sake (e.g. knowledge, health) then I don’t think there is any answer to the question, “Why did you like A rather than B?” except to say that A is desirable for its own sake, which means that choosing A requires no further justification. (The same would be true if the person had chosen B instead of A: B is desirable for its own sake, so choosing B requires no further justification.)
I think M. Holcumbrink has criticised your position here well. To me, your approach is incoherent. For A to be desirable for its own sake is to say that the agent liked A ‘just because’. Your issue is obvious – it is the classic Dilemma of Determinism – the fact that the agent needs to be the originator of the ‘causal chain’. Origination, thus, leads to the LFWer to claim that the agent can start the chain. However, this is problematic because the agent needs a reason, but reason, causal or otherwise, regresses that chain further back. So it seems, Vincent, that you posit a ‘just because’ scenario. Yet this isn’t, for me at any rate, good enough. This simple scenario might suffice: Imagine 2 identical worlds – W1 and W2. It seems, from your approach, that an agent could have the choice of A or B in both worlds. In one world, he could choose A because it was intrinsically desirable to do so, and in W2 he could choose B because it was intrinsically desirable to do so. But both worlds are identical. And yet you are admitting that A and not A can exist in the same agent, thus breaking the law of non-contradiction. This is very similar to the grounding objection against Molinism. Could you elucidate further? i/ need to make sure I get you right.Jonathan MS Pearce
October 14, 2012
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Hi Vincent Two points to make first up. One, that I have already made, is that in order to establish what you demand, one would have to speak for three or four hours. Just on the matter of universes, for example, one could spend a whole evening lecturing. I went to see Lawrence Krauss last week talk on A Universe From Nothing. That was an hour and a half and really needed to be 4 hours! Philosophy (and science) is a series of interconnected ideas which all depend in some way on each other. Dualism, supervenience, physics, universes etc – all very interesting and worthy of discussion. However, I was tasked with talking on the subject for 45 minutes to (intelligent) laypeople. It was an introduction, and succeeded in being so. I know this, because I spoke to many of the audience afterwards and they declared it was spot on for the purposes – content and delivery. My goal was to set people on a path to discuss these issues further. In an undeniable way (evidenced by this very discussion), this has succeeded. Secondly, in one very real sense, you present, to some degree, a straw man. My goal was not to set out a case for determinism. My goal was to set out a case refuting, or arguing against, libertarian free will. You seem to have missed this. Now, I am a determinist. But one can be an indeterminist who denies LFW. This was discussed in the Q and A. Much of what you say does not confirm the case against LFW, but of the implicit case for determinism. Obviously, I did talk much about determinism as one of the contrary positions, but I hope I made it clear that one can deny it without allowing, necessarily, for LFW. Take Hawking etc who refer to ‘Adequate Determinism’ as doing so. On causality, I admittedly had to simplify for the audience. I have a particular view on causality which is the basis for why I think the Kalam Cosmological Argument is unsound. However, the notion of a causal circumstance is not, as you point out, strictly a linear affair, but is much more complex than that. Yet the linear depiction suffices for the job at hand – the talk. We could talk about the Dead Legionnaire’s dilemma or other examples which would point to the notion that sometimes defining a cause is impossible. This is why the causal circumstance, which I think I communicated, is responsible for a ‘decision’. By this, I mean everything in the universe up until that moment – the whole causal matrix, interconnected like a web. In reality, I could also talk about the impossibility of actually cutting up the causal ‘chain’. This is the nub of one of my biggest criticisms against the KCA. It is best analogised by the Species Problem, or the Sorites Paradox. For the point in hand, as fascinating as that is, we need not digress.Jonathan MS Pearce
October 14, 2012
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tragic mishap,
If humans have free will it does not destroy the concept of conversion. All it requires is a change of will, a different choice. I think this is Biblically supportable from places like Romans 12:1 which clearly shows the hierarchy of this transformation. First the will knows and aligns itself with God’s will. Then the mind is transformed followed by the desires of the body being subjugated to the prior choice that was made.
I would say that you conflate ‘will’ and choice. They are not the same thing. To change the ‘will’ results in a different choice, e.g. if I don’t like anchovies, I will not choose to put them on my pizza, but if somehow I all of a sudden take a liking to anchovies, maybe from time to time I will put them on my pizza. But it must be noted that the will (or desire) compels my choices. In regards to Rom 12, I will not argue against a transformation, for the Christian life is a journey and our sanctification does not happen overnight (oh, how familiar I am with that!). But I don’t find here an argument against the bondage of the will, only that our minds and desires are to be transformed over time, “until our hearts be formed in Christ.” But what the notion of ‘free will’ does destroy is the idea of the sovereignty of God, and of being saved by grace alone, by the will of God alone. I find the concept of ‘free will’ as presented here to inexorably point to full blown Pelagianism, to the detriment of the gospel. “When did you receive the Spirit? When you obeyed the works of the law, or when you believed what you heard”? I see here believing by the word will inform my desires with knowledge, while at the same time having my desires transformed by the Spirit. Not all at once, but enough to help me along the path He has set before me and as He sees fit. And I also believe that what johnnyb says regarding recursion and blueprints and looping to have much merit (if I understand him correctly). If I know that looking at Porn will inflame my lust, then I will avoid it, because of the possibility that my lust might be inflamed to a point where I lose control. I know ahead of time that there is a possibility of being ensnared (I can’t help it anymore and I can’t get out), so I flee sexual immorality. But it must be noted that in order for this to work there must be a fear of sin, which is a desire to avoid the misery it can cause, or a fear of harming my family, which is a desire for their well being and comfort, or even more to the point, a desire to honor and please Christ, who loved me and died for me. And these desires must outweigh the desire for the pleasures of sin for a season.M. Holcumbrink
October 14, 2012
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Mung, point taken. Hell is only referred to in scripture with metaphor (their worm, lake of fire, blackness of darkness). So I suppose I should have told Alan “To base your assertion that hell is a fiction on that particular metaphor is literary dull-headedness on your part, sir.”M. Holcumbrink
October 14, 2012
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Dr. Torley, Yes, I do in fact believe that the strongest desire wins out (I have not read Hobbes, so I have arrived at this conclusion on my own, I suppose). But at the same time, there is the notion of spiritual warfare (we are to fight against and resist the sin that dwells within). And there are many factors that come into play that effects all of it, such as encouragement, knowledge, circumstances, etc. But what are all these things but causes towards a particular effect? Paul tells us to encourage one another, but why? To effect a particular behavior. Paul tells us the Jews had a zeal for God, but that it was not based on knowledge. So what if they were to believe the right thing? It would cause them to apply their zeal towards different ends. Paul tells us to avoid certain situations, But why? Because if we get caught up in them it will only serve to cause us to stumble. But in the end all of these only serve to effect the intensity of certain desires over others, or to redirect our desires entirely. To say otherwise is against all experience, is it not?
There’s no reason to believe that I always want what I choose.
I find the only reason that is necessary to believe this is one’s own experience. What else is there other than that? Examine yourself, and see whether or not this be the case. Why else would you choose to do anything else?
I may choose something simply because it’s the right thing to do, or because it’s my duty to do it, however much I may not want to do it. You may answer that if I act this way, it’s because I want to do the right thing, but I would answer that this is a misuse of language. In ordinary language, what I want is what I find pleasant, and the fact is that we often do things we find unpleasant.
But what is more unpleasant than those things which are against our will? I have not at all used the language contrary to the ordinary usage, but you seem to disregard the possibility of having to choose from an array of choices that are only unpleasant. What else but that very situation makes those kinds of decisions the most difficult in life! So I find this rule: the greater the disparity in unpleasantness between the choices, the easier the decision is to make. And it is very fleshly thinking on your part, it seems to me, to insist that doing the wrong thing would not in any way be most unpleasant for certain people. What of the misery of guilt? Do we not say “I would not be able to live with myself” if we were to engage in certain behaviors? You completely discount deferred gratification, sir (or rather knowledge of the end result of our actions plus our desires effecting our choices). And if this has nothing to do with desires, then why is it called deferred gratification?
Second, I find your explanation of will in terms of desire reductionist. Desire is something we share with the beasts; will is something which elevates us over them. If you wish to maintain that I choose in the same way that an animal does, then it is up to you to support that assertion with evidence. After all, we don’t sue chimps.
But I would say that knowledge and reason informing our desires is what elevates us over the beasts. And that is why we call those individuals who have no use of knowledge and reason beastly and savage, do we not? We don’t sue chimps because they are incapable of grasping knowledge and reason (which is why we just kill them when they threaten us – there is no reasoning with them whatsoever). And in the meantime we will spend all manner of time and resources negotiating with criminals during hostage situations or on rehabilitation after they are caught, all in an attempt to inform the will.
Third, there’s no meaningful sense in which our desires can be weighed against each other. How would you weight them? Qua mental events, desires don’t have any numeric properties such as “weight.” So if one desire is stronger than another, it must be by virtue of its physical properties. That’s a materialist account of choice. Once again, where’s the evidence that this model does a better job of explaining how we act?
(You speak like one of the anti-ID folk now - “quantify this FSCI, if you can”). But what! As if you yourself cannot tell whether or not you like one thing over the other, or whether you want one thing more than you want the other? Do we need to find a way to measure this to know that it is true? You have spiraled into nonsense here. What about information (programming) to which I draw my analogy? Does the FSCI add any weight to the medium that carries it? Does a random string weigh less than a meaningful string? No, it is completely transcendent to physicality. What if it is the same with desire? What the spirit within a man is composed of I know not, but I find it to be very real – and I find the desires of a man, which is an integral part of his spirit (or personality), to be a most potent cause of all manner of things, and that apart from any materialist viewpoint. And again, for the evidence I would make an appeal to your own experience, sir. As if you don’t choose according to your desires day-in and day-out, moment by moment, and that according to preference of one over the other.
Finally, where is the internal program that controls what we choose to do?
As if anyone has an answer as to where the soul of a man resides, or what it is, or how it is maintained, or even if it is channeled by physicality at all in any way.
You find unintelligible the notion that some things are desirable for their own sake. I put it to you that some things are good for their own sake (e.g. food, water, warmth and companionship) and that if we are rational beings, we will recognize this fact, and desire them accordingly. The fact that some people don’t proves only that some people are irrational.
Perhaps I don’t know what you mean that some things are “desirable for their own sake”, but I would say that we either desire them or we do not, and that some things ought to be desired even though they are not with everyone. But when you say some people are irrational by not desiring the things they ought to, fine. But I would call it that sin, not irrationality.M. Holcumbrink
October 14, 2012
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I think you're more of a gnome than a troll. Eat your Wheaties.tragic mishap
October 14, 2012
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hay guys, what do you think about this impressive argumant? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqcYbTmXXLUmk
October 14, 2012
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Vincent I will read this tonight. What I can say from a very wuick skim read is this: Within a 45 minute framework, to establish all that you demand would not only have been impossible, but it would have been unwieldy as a talk designed for laypeople. I would happily establish all that and more, but I would need 3 hours and people willing to sit through that. That was not the requirements for the talk. @Axel: "The expression, ‘men against boys’, although here in the singular, immediately springs to mind, to the discredit of the pitifully infantile and inchoate thought-processes of Mr Pearce." That is an immature ad hominem that has no place in rational and hopefully interesting discussion. I have previously enjoyed debating with Vincent elsewhere (even if he does leave our conversations without following them through to the end! ;) ). However, please contribute something other than a thinly veiled "them against us" style tribal jibe. I welcome criticism, as I am sure people have and will deliver, respectfully done. Regards JP http://skepticink.com/tippling/Jonathan MS Pearce
October 14, 2012
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VJ
Third, there’s no meaningful sense in which our desires can be weighed against each other. How would you weight them? Qua mental events, desires don’t have any numeric properties such as “weight.” So if one desire is stronger than another, it must be by virtue of its physical properties. That’s a materialist account of choice. Once again, where’s the evidence that this model does a better job of explaining how we act?
I'm glad you brought this up. I think this argument is the strongest one against determinism and I would like to hear more discussion on this. In order for anything to have a "value" a choice must be made. Some Christians would say God made that choice, but it's still a choice. From there it is not such a big stretch to saying humans could have made the choice because God chose to give us free will. M. Holcumbrink
What is the new heart we have in Christ if not a change of desires? This is what is missing in our religion these days – the recognition that we need a new heart, plain and simple.
If humans have free will it does not destroy the concept of conversion. All it requires is a change of will, a different choice. I think this is Biblically supportable from places like Romans 12:1 which clearly shows the hierarchy of this transformation. First the will knows and aligns itself with God's will. Then the mind is transformed followed by the desires of the body being subjugated to the prior choice that was made.tragic mishap
October 14, 2012
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There are some things a person must believe whether they are true or not. We must act, think, and debate as if we have libertarian free will; the only reason to argue that we do not is to avoid the philosophical implications of free will. A lot of atheistic thought and argument is really nothing but convoluted sophistry intended to make absurd cases to avoid the philosophical consequences of necessary premises. You can see this when they make arguments against free will; you can see this when they attempt to avoid the implications of a universe that began at some point in the past and has remarkably life-friendly fundamental features; you can see this when they attempt to construct a valid but subjective morality that eschews any objective grounding for their list of "oughts". What they always end up with is a bunch of self-refuting sophistry, which they are willing to ignore (or, in some cases, accept) for the sake of avoiding theism.William J Murray
October 14, 2012
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When one attempts to have a rational debate, one must assume libertarian free will exists in order for the debate to have any value. Unless there is a top-down, libertarian capacity for an individual to override physical mechanisms and "change their mind" as the result of an independent analysis of their own views in light of the argument being made, then all debate is nothing more - essentially - than monkeys flinging feces at each other attempting to get the other monkey to agree. Humans either have access to a nonphysical, independent capacity to "will", or they are essentially biological automatons doing and thinking whatever the motions of molecules dictate. Any argument that holds the latter position holds that all arguments only have whatever meaning the individual reacts with, and all reactions are equally valid since there is no independent arbiter of those reactions. Arguing that arguments only have independent meaning and that all reactions are equally valid is reducing reason and logic to rhetoric and sophistry. Determinists, essentially, argue that their arguments have no meaningful value - at least, no more meaningful than dogs barking or monkeys flinging feces around.William J Murray
October 14, 2012
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'Dead people don’t have desires.' Mung, a saint once remarked that concupiscence in a man only disappears half an hour after death.Axel
October 14, 2012
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The expression, 'men against boys', although here in the singular, immediately springs to mind, to the discredit of the pitifully infantile and inchoate thought-processes of Mr Pearce.Axel
October 14, 2012
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It seems to me that, at its core, the problem people have with free will is that it is difficult to reason with causally. We have a good causal category for determinism (using mathematical reasoning), and we have a good causal category for "random" occurrences (using probabilistic reasoning). The problem is that we have trouble making sense of self-caused actions. I think the *biggest* issue is that our modern mindset is overly focused on mathematical forms of reasoning, so we have difficulty even fathoming how non-mathematical reasoning might work. I think one way at least somewhat around the issue is to view "blueprints" as being themselves causes. In other words, rational goals should be elevated to causes in their own right. In other words, the goal of "being a painter", as a blueprint for the future, is itself a cause. This leaves open the question of where such causes come from, but I think it is a step in the right direction. Having read som books on Aristotelian causes, I think using "blueprint" as a loose translation of "form" might make it have more impact to the modern mind. Likewise, I think the idea of recursion is helpful, but not a complete explanation. If X causes Y, there is an open question of does X cause X? In other words, the rational scales I use to weigh an opinion is formed from a sequence of choices that have been made to this point. This is why moral decision-making in the small things is so important. If I develop a habit of moral decision-making, then each time I make the decision, I am being a cause of myself for the future. Again, none of these are complete explanations for free will, but I think they will help us begin on the road to understanding non-mechanistic causation in general. Also, for anyone interested, there were several talks on such types of causation at the Engineering and Metaphysics 2012 Conference.johnnyb
October 14, 2012
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I just read my comment over and there's some unexplained logic jumps in there but it can be followed basically. I'm going to try and come back later and clean it up a bit.lamarck
October 14, 2012
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Re: Not needing justifications for actions after a certain juncture. This was by far the most practical point made I think. I don't usually like freewill dissertations because they naturally go nowhere but this was pretty good. Anyways, I went back to another article I read one time because I vaguely added something up that both articles said and something clicked for me. For a long time I've had a bit of sadness about reaching any kind of meaningful ultimate truth because what would you do then? It seems pointlessness and meaninglessness has to be the end of the road. Then again if I think I'm designed to have a problem with pointlessness for the rest of my existence, then I probably have it wrong. And that points to something above that still not understood. So most likely something is actually holy and real and makes life fullfilling and it lies above this discussion. Anyways, if you take what your saying one step further, all decisions are arbitrary and meaningless, whether god is in the picture or not. From god can emanate only pointless edicts, or if laws are god, then laws are pointless edicts. With nothing at stake there's no necessity, therefore nothing's intrinsically important. But the epiphany is who cares? In human affairs, people always question other's judgement. The more decisions you make in life, period, the more others will question your judgement. Over the years I increasingly don't question others judgement especially when I know they're wrong. I've made lots of decisions and so receive lots of judgement, and there's been this faint recognition in the back of my mind that no matter how caring they seemed to be, why are they in my way? I want to make some bad decisions. Without the power to make bad decisions life isn't fun. Why not make it fun, life's pointless anyway. How is god holy? He can only be a decision maker with no necessity. Maybe Chairman Mao was right, or maybe he was just fine. Apparently he just is. But if you believe that the universes edicts are intrinsically sacred then you believe that necessity is injected from the highest power. You're not at that point conceiving of the highest power, just logically. So if true evil can arise, it arises either by the concept put forth of god being forced to inject necessity upon you, or politically by Mao faking necessity, and so causing an artificial panic, or by listening to your friend's advice on why it's so dangerous to do this or that. In other words evil could arise by convincing others that you are in touch with a reality which can forever stop their own power of apparently making decisions.lamarck
October 14, 2012
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M. Holcumbrink, Thank you for your comment. I'd like to address your points head-on. First, I detect a modern, Hobbesian tone in your objections. You claim that I choose something because I want it, and that when I choose A over B, it's because my desire for A compels me to: it outweighs my desire for B. Finally, you argue that my desires are the product of my internal programming. Yet you offer not the slightest evidence for any of these assertions. There's no reason to believe that I always want what I choose. I may choose something simply because it's the right thing to do, or because it's my duty to do it, however much I may not want to do it. You may answer that if I act this way, it's because I want to do the right thing, but I would answer that this is a misuse of language. In ordinary language, what I want is what I find pleasant, and the fact is that we often do things we find unpleasant. Second, I find your explanation of will in terms of desire reductionist. Desire is something we share with the beasts; will is something which elevates us over them. If you wish to maintain that I choose in the same way that an animal does, then it is up to you to support that assertion with evidence. After all, we don't sue chimps. Third, there's no meaningful sense in which our desires can be weighed against each other. How would you weight them? Qua mental events, desires don't have any numeric properties such as "weight." So if one desire is stronger than another, it must be by virtue of its physical properties. That's a materialist account of choice. Once again, where's the evidence that this model does a better job of explaining how we act? Finally, where is the internal program that controls what we choose to do? You find unintelligible the notion that some things are desirable for their own sake. I put it to you that some things are good for their own sake (e.g. food, water, warmth and companionship) and that if we are rational beings, we will recognize this fact, and desire them accordingly. The fact that some people don't proves only that some people are irrational.vjtorley
October 13, 2012
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M, I don't know what you mean when you say hell is real. Is hell a literal lake?Mung
October 13, 2012
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Dead people don’t have desires
And now I don't know what to make of you.M. Holcumbrink
October 13, 2012
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Mung,
You’re assuming that ‘dead’ has only one literal meaning. Assume that literal bodily death is the real metaphor. Assume that physical birth is the metaphor, not spiritual birth.
Here’s the point I was originally trying to make with Alan: he asserted that hell is not real by using Rom 6:23, taking ‘death’ to mean the non-existence of the individual. But Paul told the Ephesians that they were dead in sin, which clearly does not mean the non-existence of the individual (whether literal death be the metaphor or not). But was he mocking? I don’t know. I don’t know what to make of him. But at this point I am certain I should have ignored his comment. Live and learn.M. Holcumbrink
October 13, 2012
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Dead people don't have desires.Mung
October 13, 2012
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Dr. Torley, I’m glad you didn’t say something to the effect that we can choose to like A instead of B. However, you say:
If A and B are both ends which are desirable for their own sake (e.g. knowledge, health) then I don’t think there is any answer to the question, “Why did you like A rather than B?” except to say that A is desirable for its own sake, which means that choosing A requires no further justification.
I don’t follow this line of reasoning. To say that something is desirable ‘for its own sake’ may or not be true for every person. The big question is, what is the difference from person to person, for them having different desires? Some desire knowledge, some desire wealth, etc., but the big question is: what is at the root of it? So I take it that you mean to say that there need not be an explanation as to why I like A and not B, other than to say that “I just do”. If Jonathan wants an answer as to why we choose A over B, the answer is plain: we choose A over B because we want to (because our desire for A over B compels us). So there is certainly causality when it comes to our choices, with that cause being our will (side note: it is maddening to me when this distinction is not made – the distinction between choice and desire; there is a huge difference, and the latter drives the former). So I choose A because I want to (simple enough), but why do I want to? To answer that by barfing up some verbiage about ‘it’s desirable for its own sake’ and that ‘therefore our choice requires no further justification’ seems quite an empty answer to me. So what I would say (in short) is that I desire certain things not because they are desirable (what reasoning is that? And you accuse Jonathan of begging the question!), but because that’s who I am. So our desires spring forth from within us and therefore define us, and that is what makes me who I am. But to plainly illustrate this, I will offer my own concrete example: A cybernetic system is programmed to give outputs in response to certain inputs. It is the programming that defines the system and compels it to make the “choices” that it makes. Now this is pure mechanism (passionless), but it is directly analogous to our condition in that our desire is our “programming”. Just as the programming defines the cybernetic system (and therefore compels the outputs that it gives), so the desires define the person (and therefore compels the choices that we make). The programming makes the system what it is, but desire is what makes us who we are (note the distinction, ‘it’ and ‘who’, ‘output’ and ‘choice’). So I guess, in a sense, it would be correct to say that I like A instead of B because that is my programming. But if my desires are wicked, then what I need above all else is to have my heart re-written. Otherwise, what is the new birth that Christ spoke of? What is the new heart we have in Christ if not a change of desires? This is what is missing in our religion these days – the recognition that we need a new heart, plain and simple. As to alms, we are told we should give cheerfully and willingly, not under compulsion. But how am I to do this if my heart is greedy and covetous? You go right ahead and tell the greedy and covetous man “look, bub, giving is a choice that we want to do because it is desirable for its own sake.” What! Not to him! So what good are these words to him? Instead, tell him he needs a new heart, one that is not greedy and covetous, then tell him Who it is that can give him one if he sees the need.M. Holcumbrink
October 13, 2012
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Assume that literal bodily death is the real metaphor. Assume that physical birth is the metaphor, not spiritual birth.Mung
October 13, 2012
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M. You're assuming that 'dead' has only one literal meaning.Mung
October 13, 2012
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Mung, I never would have imagined that I would need to make some kind of qualification when referencing Ephesians 2:1 in order to keep people from thinking that Paul was speaking of literal dead people.M. Holcumbrink
October 13, 2012
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Hi jstanley01, Seligman's book sounds very interesting. I'll keep an eye out for it. Thanks for the tip.vjtorley
October 13, 2012
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Hi M. Holcumbrink, Thank you for your comments. You write:
But what if someone asks why you liked A rather than B? Does that deserve an answer? And if so, how would you answer it?
If A and B are both ends which are desirable for their own sake (e.g. knowledge, health) then I don't think there is any answer to the question, "Why did you like A rather than B?" except to say that A is desirable for its own sake, which means that choosing A requires no further justification. (The same would be true if the person had chosen B instead of A: B is desirable for its own sake, so choosing B requires no further justification.) Let me offer a concrete example: Leonardo da Vinci. As a young man, he had enormous talents: he could have become a scientist (or natural philosopher), or an artist, or taken an active interest in both fields. Any of these choices would have been perfectly appropriate, as science and art are both "basic human goods" which are desirable for their own sake. (Most modern natural law theorists have a list of half a dozen or so of these "basic human goods," although their lists vary a little.) If someone had asked Leonardo, "Why did you choose to become a generalist, rather than specializing exclusively in one or the other?" I don't think there's any more he could have said in reply than this: that art and science are both ends whose choice requires no further justification. During his talk, I noticed that Jonathan, when considering the possibility of a libertarian fork in the road, insisted on asking the question, "But why?" regarding a choice to do A rather than B. I think he was implicitly appealing to Leibniz's Principle of Sufficient Reason or something like it. Now, it's one thing to insist on an explanation for why someone chose A. But it's another thing to insist on an explanation of every disjunction as well. The question of why someone chose A rather than B may have no additional answer.vjtorley
October 13, 2012
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vjtorley wrote:
Repeatedly, during his talk, Jonathan argued that our choices must have a reason or cause, otherwise they’re just random. But it seems he is equivocating here. What if our choices have a “why” reason, without having a “prior causal” reason? That seems a perfectly coherent possibility to me. A choice with a “why” reason would not be a random one: it would have a clearly defined goal or purpose. Jonathan might argue against this possibility by appealing to the principle that every event has a cause. A choice is an event, therefore a choice has a cause. Right? Not so fast. The principle that every event has a cause is arguably true from a scientific standpoint, if one is talking about micro-level events at some point or very small region of space and time. But a choice isn’t an event like that, and you can’t argue that it can be decomposed into a set of events like that, without assuming the truth of reductionism – which is question-begging.
It is noteworthy that B.F. Skinner's Behaviorism school of psychology was deterministic, boiling down all behavior to rewards/punishments (to boil down the theory :D). I say "was" because of late Cognitive Psychology has debunked Behaviorism, in my view decisively, on empirical grounds. I can't locate my copy on my shelf just now or I would cite an apropos quote. But in his book Learned Optimism, Martin E.P. Seligman who founded the Positive Psychology Center at Pennsylvania University, presents numerous arguments, backed up by data from controlled experiments, that put the lie to both deterministic and Freudian explanations. My short version -- hopefully an adequate nutshell -- would be that helplessness is a learned behavior that can be unlearned or modified by cognitive means. That is, by changes in thinking patterns. Something that neither the Behaviorists or Freudians expected because it necessitates freedom of will. I highly recommended the title.jstanley01
October 13, 2012
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