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Determinism for Thee but Not for Me

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A professor sums up a lecture on the evolutionary explanation for why religion has been ubiquitous in every human culture:

Professor:  So, in summary, every human culture going back thousands of years has been religious because religion is either itself an adaptive behavior or it is a spandrel, a byproduct of the evolution of some other trait upon which natural selection acted.  Under the first view, religion itself was adaptive, perhaps because it enhances cooperation and cohesion within groups, and group membership in turn provides benefits which can enhance an individual’s chances for survival and reproduction.  Under the second view, perhaps religion evolved as a byproduct of adaptive selection of some other trait, although it is not clear what that other trait might have been.

Student:  Thank you for that explanation professor.  I wonder if I might ask a question.

Professor:  Of course.

Student:  Thank you.  If I understand correctly, the evolutionary process you described is fundamentally deterministic, and religion arose in all human cultures as a result of that purely deterministic process.

Professor:  Yes, that’s correct. 

Student:  But I don’t understand.  As sophisticated modern people, we understand that religious beliefs about supernatural beings and a spirit world and whatnot are false.  Why did evolution select for a false belief? 

Professor:  Excellent question.  Yes, it is true that evolution selected for a false belief in this case.  You see, evolution selects for survival value, not for truth.  Evolution may well select for a totally false belief system if that false belief system confers a survival benefit, and in the case of religion it did exactly that.  Deterministic evolutionary processes in a sense foisted a false belief on the overwhelming majority of humans throughout thousands of years of history because that false belief system made them more fit in the Darwinian sense of that word.

Student:  So we know for a certain fact that deterministic evolutionary forces shape our belief systems.  And we know for a certain fact that any particular belief system may be, to use your word, foisted on us by evolution even if it is false.  This is fascinating.  Until very recently, almost everyone’s most cherished and strongly held beliefs were exactly of the false-belief-foisted-on-them-by-evolution variety.

Professor:  Yes, that is indeed fascinating. 

Student:  It is also deeply troubling.

Professor:  What are you talking about?

Student:  For us moderns, especially the elites like those who teach at and attend this university, scientific materialism has largely supplanted religious belief as the foundation of our outlook on the world. 

Professor:  Yes, that is true, but I have no idea why that would be troubling to you.

Student:  That’s not the troubling part.  What troubles me is that if we know that our modern belief system is caused, like everything else, by purely deterministic forces, how can we know our belief system is not just as false as the religious beliefs we scoff at?  How do we know that evolution has not foisted yet another false belief system on us, in this case scientific materialism, because it is adaptive even though it is false?

Professor:  Let not your heart be troubled.  We can know that scientific materialism is true because we have sound evidentiary reasons for believing it. 

Student:  I don’t understand.  I know Christians who say they have good reasons based on their exhaustive review of the evidence to believe what they believe. 

Professor:  Yes, yes.  But they have deluded themselves.  Their evidence is not as good as the evidence we have that supports science and materialism. 

Student:  I think you missed the point I was making.  You said that our belief systems are the result of purely deterministic processes.  Either that is true or it is not.  If it is true, then evolution forces us to believe in scientific materialism just as it formerly forced theists to believe in religion.  The very essence of determinism is that it does not allow us to choose based on any ground, including an evaluation of the evidence.  And this is what troubles me.  I read one of the Christian philosophers.  He said that if my thoughts are utterly determined by material forces, why should I believe them to be true?  And after listening to your lecture today, I begin to take his point.  Why indeed should we prefer one deterministically caused belief over another?  After all, we say that we know that throughout history, the vast majority of people held a false deterministically caused belief.

Professor:  You aren’t listening to me.  We have good reasons to believe what we do.  Religious bumpkins don’t.

Student:  No, you aren’t listening to me.  Either determinism causes our beliefs or it does not.  By its very nature, determinism is an all-or-nothing proposition.  What gives us the right to say other people’s beliefs are mere evolutionary adaptations but not our own?  Maybe this is why Daniel Dennett called evolution a universal acid.  It dissolves the very mind that purports to believe it.

Comments
JVL @ 34: “I think it does because there are Christians who are in favour of abortion rights. Far be it from me to decide if they are ‘true’ Christians or not.” You missed the point. I am not judging whether anyone is a “true” Christian. I pointed out that your logic is flawed. You stated that people support abortion because they support a “right to choose,” not because they are ideological monsters. The structure of your argument is this: Unstated Major Premise: People who merely support a right to choose are not ideological monsters. Minor Premise: People who support abortion rights support a right to choose. Conclusion: Therefore, people who support abortion rights are not ideological monsters. Your argument fails because your major premises is false. People who support the right to choose may very well be ideological monsters. Nazis supported the right to choose to kill Jews. That made them ideological monsters.Barry Arrington
December 12, 2021
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Origenes: First of all, you are just making this up. Many species have gone extinct. Of course. Many species have gone extinct. We know this from the fossil record correlated with the genomic, morphologic and geologic record. But natural selection rarely wipes out a whole species at a time. Unless it's an asteroid or a major flood or possibly a wide-spread fire. and second, the principle remains exactly the same. NS culls, eliminates, removes biological information and shrinks the domain for RM to act on — no matter the level NS operates on. Natural selection first eliminates that which is not even viable. Then it 'tends' to prefer that which is somewhat better. And there are other forms of selection and pressures at work. Regardless, getting rid of what is obviously non-functional is not going to harm evolution which is about how life alters and changes. Yes, the variation is based on what has survived but that's how life 'advances'. And, when you look at the extant forms of life you will see huge variation morphologically and genetically. Did you know that the genome of ferns is much larger than that of humans? WTF?? I get what you're saying: you want to 'show' that it would take some kind of intervention, some kind of designer stepping in and tossing in some more 'information' that enabled creatures like us to arrive. But as your understanding of the real state of biology is clearly flawed I'm afraid your argument just doesn't have the legs to finish the race. Sorry.JVL
December 12, 2021
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Chuckdarwin: JVL’s response is accurate insofar as variation appearing as mutations will constantly impact a population, but there is a deeper point. Selection rarely completely “removes” a genotype, rather genes can go unexpressed for generations. 100% agree. I do find though that, on this forum, the finer points are frequently ignored or misunderstood. And I have repeatedly suggested Dr Neil Shubin's recent book Some Assembly Required discusses such issues in an easy and interesting way. Highly recommended.JVL
December 12, 2021
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JVL:
No, no, no! The level that selection works at is much ‘lower’ than that. Variation is at the generational level, not at the species or genus or group level. Variation is between one generation and the next OF THE SAME TYPE OF CREATURE.
First of all, you are just making this up. Many species have gone extinct.
(…) it has been estimated that 99.9% of all species that have ever lived on Earth are now extinct.
And second, the principle remains exactly the same. NS culls, eliminates, removes biological information and shrinks the domain for RM to act on — no matter the level NS operates on.Origenes
December 12, 2021
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Eric Anderson: No-one doubts that less fit organisms are less likely to survive in their particular environment. This is a completely pedestrian observation, is something that was known long before Darwin, and we don’t need any evolutionary theory to point this out.
Since there is no citation, I have no idea who this Eric Anderson is or where the quote comes from. However, this Anderson misses the point of Darwin's importance. Up until Darwin (and Wallace) we did not know the mechanism of evolution. As to Origenes, JVL's response is accurate insofar as variation appearing as mutations will constantly impact a population, but there is a deeper point. Selection rarely completely "removes" a genotype, rather genes can go unexpressed for generations. The information isn't lost, rather it is not expressed within the current population, but the population will continue to carry the unexpressed genes. If and when the environment changes, the genotype will reappear. For example, the size and shape of bird beaks (even among Darwin's finches) will ebb and flow to fit with food source availability. Natural selection is a process that is continually occurring in the background somewhat analogous to an app running unnoticed in the background on your computer.chuckdarwin
December 12, 2021
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Origenes: We start with dogs, horses, cows, chickens, birds, frogs and bees. Then natural selection steps in removing the dogs, horses, cows, chickens and the birds. No, no, no! The level that selection works at is much 'lower' than that. Variation is at the generational level, not at the species or genus or group level. Variation is between one generation and the next OF THE SAME TYPE OF CREATURE. I don't understand why you are intentionally misrepresenting the evolutionary argument. Unless you're trying to make it look stupid for some reason. What is your reason? And, wouldn't you rather discuss the actual theory rather than a straw man version of it? Do you see the problem with your claim? No, not based on your inaccurate version of what evolutionary theory says.JVL
December 12, 2021
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I don’t know what to say JVL
Even identical twins, who start from a single fertilized ovum, can differ by more than 100 genetic mutations.Joe Schooner
December 12, 2021
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Origenes: I don’t know what to say JVL. Oh well.JVL
December 12, 2021
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JVL
And those 4 types are better suited for their environment. And they generate more variation. Eventually a lot more.
I don't know what to say JVL. - - - - One more try: _-___ We start with dogs, horses, cows, chickens, birds, frogs and bees. Then natural selection steps in removing the dogs, horses, cows, chickens and the birds. [Enter JVL] “But now you get more variation!” ____ Do you see the problem with your claim?Origenes
December 12, 2021
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Origenes: Don’t embarrass yourself, and think before you post. We start with 10 different types of organisms. NS removes 6 types. Now we have 4 types of organisms. It follows that not only biological information is lost, but there obviously is also less variety to act on. And those 4 types are better suited for their environment. And they generate more variation. Eventually a lot more. The stuff that is gotten rid of is the stuff that doesn't work as well. The stuff that is kept works well enough. There is plenty of variation. You think you're being clever suggesting numbers rather than looking at the actual way life propagates. AND we are NOT purely due to random chance. We are based on generation after generation of variation cumulatively 'selected'. The variation is random (which means it continues to check out the non-functional corners) but the 'selection' is not. Evolution depends on both. And a lot of the stuff that is 'eliminated' is not viable in the first place!! Breeders have known all this for centuries: pick the variations that 'work', that are 'preferred'. There's plenty of variation around. Eventually you get German Shepherds and Labradors and Poodles and Dalmatians and Border Collies and Beagles and Great Danes, etc some of which could never, ever interbreed naturally. It seems to me, by your logic, we would never get forests because more that 50% of seeds from a tree never mature. In fact the percentage is way higher than that. Probably more than 90% of seeds never mature. But, we still get forests.JVL
December 12, 2021
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JVL@
O: Origenes: Natural selection removes, culls, eliminates and by doing so it lessens possibilities. Natural selection is a hindrance to evolution, because it shrinks the domain for random mutations to act on.
Yes but then more variation occurs! It doesn’t stop because some variation was de-selected!
Don't embarrass yourself, and think before you post. We start with 10 different types of organisms. NS removes 6 types. Now we have 4 types of organisms. It follows that not only biological information is lost, but there obviously is also less variety to act on. Yet you tell me "Yes but then more variation occurs!" I noticed you even added an exclamation mark .... ---- Eric Anderson:
No-one doubts that less fit organisms are less likely to survive in their particular environment. This is a completely pedestrian observation, is something that was known long before Darwin, and we don’t need any evolutionary theory to point this out.
Origenes
December 12, 2021
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Kairosfocus @21 and JVL @22, The points of your disagreement are interesting. As someone interested in history, it seems that reasons and justifications come from different layers of motivation. Here's a crude attempt to describe what I mean through an example on abortion: Froth layer: Hatred and violence for and against abortion, rhetoric chosen to increase chances for funding of certain organizations. Sociological level: The belief that unwanted pregnancies cause poverty and oppress women. Power level: The belief that a larger number of women will vote for candidates of a political party advocating unrestricted abortion. On the other side, the Catholic Church has been the strongest opponent historically of abortion for both religious and demographic reasons. Commerce level: A large industry makes tons of money off of women wanting abortions. Eugenics level: A disproportionate number of black women have abortions, reducing the size and political power of black people. Biology level: There are far too many humans on planet earth and unsustainable. We need to reduce humanity to perhaps a half or a third of the current population by eliminating "redundant" populations by any means. -QQuerius
December 12, 2021
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Origenes: Natural selection removes, culls, eliminates and by doing so it lessens possibilities. Natural selection is a hindrance to evolution, because it shrinks the domain for random mutations to act on. Yes but then more variation occurs! It doesn't stop because some variation was de-selected! The variation that was good enough continues on and provides the foundation for the next round of variation and selection BUT you can always get throwbacks. I think of life like water, it flows and explores every nook and cranny, every crack and crevice, any place it can get its 'fingers' into it will check it out. We are the ones that got away from natural selection/elimination. And, according to a properly understood Darwinian narrative, we are produced by chance for 100%. All organisms alive are produced by chance alone. Again, there is more to it than that. We are NOT a product of pure chance, we are variation upon variation cumulatively 'selected' to be better adapted to our environment. Let's suppose you start with a very basic, rudimentary bow and arrow. It's not great, it works okay, you kill a few things. You try to change some stuff: make the wood stiffer, increase the size, etc. That's variation. Some of the things you try improve the performance so you keep those changes. Yes you throw out some variation but you are focusing in on what works. After many iterations and testing lots and lots of variation you eventually arrive at something like the English long bow because you have found the right wood, the right tension, the right pull, the right size, etc for what you want it to do. Selection, human selection in this case but selection cumulatively acting on variation. Just like what Thomas Edison did. Here's another thing to think about: the variation exceeds the ability to survive. We know this. Something like one-quarter to one-third of human pregnancies end up as spontaneous miscarriages. Something was so badly wrong that the foetus couldn't survive and was aborted. There's plenty of variation, you're not going to 'limit' life by getting rid of the variation that doesn't work so well.JVL
December 12, 2021
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Barry A: JVL wants to talk about Henry VIII. That leads me to believe he has no response to the argument of the OP. Fair enough. I understand the need to change the subject. That cognitive dissonance is not going to manage itself. To be honest I was only responding to something Kairosfocus said; if I deviated from the main point then I apologise. Go back and look at that. The second part does not follow from the first, as you seem to think it does. I think it does because there are Christians who are in favour of abortion rights. Far be it from me to decide if they are 'true' Christians or not. From the outside it doesn't seem to be a teleological issue.JVL
December 12, 2021
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ChuckDarwin:
What natural selection provides is the neuro-anatomical and physiological apparatus that makes learning and memory possible.
Natural selection does not select and preserve, instead it eliminates stuff. Natural selection removes, culls, eliminates and by doing so it lessens possibilities. Natural selection is a hindrance to evolution, because it shrinks the domain for random mutations to act on. Natural selection makes it (much) harder to find biological novelties. Chuck, under darwinism, you and I and all the organisms alive are not created by natural selection but instead are untouched — not eliminated — by natural selection. Natural selection is ONLY an explanation for the elimination of organisms.
(…) it has been estimated that 99.9% of all species that have ever lived on Earth are now extinct.
We are the ones that got away from natural selection/elimination. And, according to a properly understood Darwinian narrative, we are produced by chance for 100%. All organisms alive are produced by chance alone.Origenes
December 12, 2021
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JVL @ 22: “I think most people support limited abortions because they want to have choices and options . . .” Of course they want “choices and options.” They want to be able to choose to slaughter tens of millions of babies in their mothers’ wombs. “. . . NOT because they are some ideological monster.” Go back and look at that. The second part does not follow from the first, as you seem to think it does.Barry Arrington
December 12, 2021
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Joe Schooner @ 11.
Your mis-represented characterization of those who disagree with you is duly noted. Nobody objected to these “first duties” as being valuable behaviors for a person to thrive in society. The “objectors” simply disagree with you on the origin of these behaviors.
This one is kind of funny. I will translate from materialist-ese into plain English: “KF, nobody objected to these “first duties” as being valuable behaviors for a person to thrive in society. The “objectors” simply disagree with you that they are “first” or “duties.” They are merely evolutionary adaptations encoded into us by material forces. And if a person acts contrary to those encoded behaviors (you would call it “violates a first duty”), he has not acted ‘wrong’ in any objective sense of that word. We know this because ‘wrong’ in the objective sense of the word does not exist. So when Stalin and Mao killed tens of millions, they were just acting contrary to the evolutionary adaptations that bind most of us. It adds nothing to call what they did evil.”Barry Arrington
December 12, 2021
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Chuckdarwin @ 10. “Evolution, i.e., natural selection, does not select for beliefs.” Chuck rejects evolutionary psychology. Fair enough. “This misunderstanding of evolution derives from Plantinga . . .” This statement is laughably absurd. Any high school freshman could easily defeat it. The understanding that evolution leads to certain beliefs derives from the existence of an entire subfield of evolutionary scholarship – to wit, evolutionary psychology. Chuck, you can reject the findings of evolutionary psychology. I will even join you in doing so. But don’t blame Christians for those findings.Barry Arrington
December 12, 2021
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JVL @ 9 JVL wants to talk about Henry VIII. That leads me to believe he has no response to the argument of the OP. Fair enough. I understand the need to change the subject. That cognitive dissonance is not going to manage itself.Barry Arrington
December 12, 2021
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KF @ 6. “BA, any species of determinism is fatally self-referential.” Indeed, as has been pointed out many times. Belief in materialistic determinism requires tremendous amounts of self-delusion. As the song goes: Still, a man hears what he wants to hear And disregards the rest “I, Francis Crick, my opinions and my science, and even the thoughts expressed in this book, consist of nothing more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules.” As you no doubt intended, this is a perfect example of the behavior exemplified by the Professor in the OP. That it is certain that Crick never thought any such thing is a classic example of the implied exception to the rule that brooks no exceptions discussed in the OP. “the objectors expect us to implicitly recognise the binding nature of such duties” As I have said many times in these pages, no sane person actually acts as if they believe materialism is true.Barry Arrington
December 12, 2021
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KF @ 4. Thanks for the summary of history and noting how our Republic absolutely depends on its bedrock foundation of Christian ethics – a foundation the left is more and more frenetically attempting to destroy. As Adams said, our constitution is meant for a moral and religious people; it is wholly inadequate for the governance of any other. I often find myself musing along with the Psalmist, “When the foundations are being destroyed, what can the righteous do?”Barry Arrington
December 12, 2021
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Sev at 3. As has been pointed out, even if I assume arguendo that your statement is correct, it has nothing to do with the OP. Your effort to change the subject indicates you have no response to the subject. Fair enough.Barry Arrington
December 12, 2021
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Jerry: Wrong! Nothing to do with Evolution. I'm not sure what you mean. I don't want to misinterpret you so I'll expand a bit. Inheritable variation (via genetics) produces different morphologies. Depending on local environmental conditions some morphologies might be better at surviving and producing offspring so that their genetics is more prevalent in the future generations. It's not just genetics. Think of it this way: if you took a population of rabbits, split them into two groups, sent one to live in the Bahamas and one to live in Alaska it would be reasonable to expect that the two populations would genetically drift apart because of the different environmental pressures. "Selection" may not be the best word to use but that's what Darwin used and everyone understands what he meant. You don't get evolution without variation and you don't get evolution without 'natural selection', genetic drift and other forms of 'selection'. You need both or nothing changes.JVL
December 12, 2021
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Everyone who studies evolutionary theory understands how it works;
Wrong! Nothing to do with Evolution. It’s
Everyone who studies genetics understands how it works;
jerry
December 12, 2021
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ET: Natural selection does NOT select at all. Natural selection is a process of ELIMINATION. Everyone who studies evolutionary theory understands how it works; you're not putting anyone to shame.JVL
December 12, 2021
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Kairosfocus: The slaughter of 800+ million of our living posterity in the womb yet mounts up at another million per week enabled by dehumanising our living future and warping our understanding of legitimate rights claims. There can be no right to rob innocent life of its existence. You think: abortions so clearly run counter to my worldview that the people who condone them must disagree with me ideologically. And, perhaps they do, in that one point. But that's probably not why they choose or chose to support abortion rights. I think most people support limited abortions because they want to have choices and options NOT because they are some ideological monster. Some Christians support abortion rights, some atheists support abortion rights, some of both groups oppose them. It's not primarily an ideological stance EXCEPT for those on the extreme ends. The second slaughter made up a myth of social evolution, oppressor classes and more, by the time they were done north of 100 millions were dead in the name of Marxism. And a modified form now reaches for the same unaccountable power. So, no, the notion that it is age old animosity against say Jews, fails. Again, I choose to disagree with you. Most of the conflicts in the 20th century had their roots back in history, sometimes far back. You can't blame a philosophical idea that only came into existence in the last 150 years or so for long standing animosity and prejudice. In fact, you're choosing to place the blame on some recent ideological stance is choosing to ignore the deep-seated and ingrained problems that let to the conflicts in the first place. Anti-Semitism has been documented in Europe for well over 1000 years. That is true. The most recent pogrom, as horrible as it was, was in line with previous bouts of ethnic cleansing from centuries before. Consider a brief and perhaps minor excursion into the realms of prejudice: the killing of supposed witches in the 17th and 18th centuries. Every single case of those incidents was clearly motivated by some non-rational cause but I don't hear you castigating the purported ideology of the persecutors, Christianity. You realise that the so-called witches weren't condemned based on any sound Christian doctrine (at least I hope you think that way) but you don't condemn the philosophy the accusers chose to espouse. You understand that the true explanation was not based on Christian doctrine but something else. Consider also Martin Luther's stated and published views on Jews. Was that based on actual Christian doctrine or was it just him being a prejudiced and biased jerk? Do you condemn his Christian stance for his clearly hideous view on Jews? Do, you do not. Abortions and the Second World War have nothing to do with evolutionary theory. It's an easy target for you so that's how you choose to deal with the issues. What you should be doing is taking a real, honest and sincere approach and to try and figure out what it was that actually motivated people aside from their stated justifications and explanations which came after their commitment to a certain path of behaviour.JVL
December 12, 2021
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JVL, ideologies often undermine the moral government that guides reason. The capital examples are responsible for the two worst mass slaughters of the past 100 years, and no the Nazi shoah doesn't even come close within the order of magnitude. The slaughter of 800+ million of our living posterity in the womb yet mounts up at another million per week enabled by dehumanising our living future and warping our understanding of legitimate rights claims. There can be no right to rob innocent life of its existence. The second slaughter made up a myth of social evolution, oppressor classes and more, by the time they were done north of 100 millions were dead in the name of Marxism. And a modified form now reaches for the same unaccountable power. So, no, the notion that it is age old animosity against say Jews, fails. KFkairosfocus
December 12, 2021
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News @1,
It’s always been to “prove” that you are no better able to decide about things like, for example, government, than a chimpanzee would be.
Polistra @2,
Through history most beliefs are caused and enforced by human leaders, not by physics and neural wiring.
Yes, governments ask for allegiances politely. Then they inevitably use intimidation, lies, and force. Jesus told his followers to give things demanded by Caesar back to Caesar, but that we’re created in the image of God and thus we belong to God, not Caesar. Bornagain77 @3, It seems like new discoveries are often applied into the social sciences, education, and philosophy. We were told during the industrial revolution that we need to “let off steam,” and mass production was incorporated into education for manufacturing graduates, John Dewey said that the purpose of education was political—to create the new socialist person, B.F. Skinner told us that we’re beyond freedom and dignity, and eugenicists advocated our control of evolution, justifying both hard and soft genocides. JVL @9,
Mostly, it seems to me, that wars and ethnic cleansings and genocides and racial discrimination come about firstly because one group or another wants to marginalise or even eliminate another group they feel they are in competition with. To make their actions more ‘palatable’ to the fence-sitters they appeal to whatever ideology they think supports their goals.
Good point. Ideologies that seem to be based on science or engineering become more palatable and convincing. The battle is for our minds and affections. The goals are for money, power, and fame. -QQuerius
December 12, 2021
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Keeping on the pet food tangent, the quality control and cleanliness of some pet food manufacturers far exceed that of many human food manufacturers. Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming. :)Joe Schooner
December 12, 2021
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Yep, Purina does it all. They even make a Fish Chow for fish farmschuckdarwin
December 12, 2021
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