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Determinism for Thee but Not for Me

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A professor sums up a lecture on the evolutionary explanation for why religion has been ubiquitous in every human culture:

Professor:  So, in summary, every human culture going back thousands of years has been religious because religion is either itself an adaptive behavior or it is a spandrel, a byproduct of the evolution of some other trait upon which natural selection acted.  Under the first view, religion itself was adaptive, perhaps because it enhances cooperation and cohesion within groups, and group membership in turn provides benefits which can enhance an individual’s chances for survival and reproduction.  Under the second view, perhaps religion evolved as a byproduct of adaptive selection of some other trait, although it is not clear what that other trait might have been.

Student:  Thank you for that explanation professor.  I wonder if I might ask a question.

Professor:  Of course.

Student:  Thank you.  If I understand correctly, the evolutionary process you described is fundamentally deterministic, and religion arose in all human cultures as a result of that purely deterministic process.

Professor:  Yes, that’s correct. 

Student:  But I don’t understand.  As sophisticated modern people, we understand that religious beliefs about supernatural beings and a spirit world and whatnot are false.  Why did evolution select for a false belief? 

Professor:  Excellent question.  Yes, it is true that evolution selected for a false belief in this case.  You see, evolution selects for survival value, not for truth.  Evolution may well select for a totally false belief system if that false belief system confers a survival benefit, and in the case of religion it did exactly that.  Deterministic evolutionary processes in a sense foisted a false belief on the overwhelming majority of humans throughout thousands of years of history because that false belief system made them more fit in the Darwinian sense of that word.

Student:  So we know for a certain fact that deterministic evolutionary forces shape our belief systems.  And we know for a certain fact that any particular belief system may be, to use your word, foisted on us by evolution even if it is false.  This is fascinating.  Until very recently, almost everyone’s most cherished and strongly held beliefs were exactly of the false-belief-foisted-on-them-by-evolution variety.

Professor:  Yes, that is indeed fascinating. 

Student:  It is also deeply troubling.

Professor:  What are you talking about?

Student:  For us moderns, especially the elites like those who teach at and attend this university, scientific materialism has largely supplanted religious belief as the foundation of our outlook on the world. 

Professor:  Yes, that is true, but I have no idea why that would be troubling to you.

Student:  That’s not the troubling part.  What troubles me is that if we know that our modern belief system is caused, like everything else, by purely deterministic forces, how can we know our belief system is not just as false as the religious beliefs we scoff at?  How do we know that evolution has not foisted yet another false belief system on us, in this case scientific materialism, because it is adaptive even though it is false?

Professor:  Let not your heart be troubled.  We can know that scientific materialism is true because we have sound evidentiary reasons for believing it. 

Student:  I don’t understand.  I know Christians who say they have good reasons based on their exhaustive review of the evidence to believe what they believe. 

Professor:  Yes, yes.  But they have deluded themselves.  Their evidence is not as good as the evidence we have that supports science and materialism. 

Student:  I think you missed the point I was making.  You said that our belief systems are the result of purely deterministic processes.  Either that is true or it is not.  If it is true, then evolution forces us to believe in scientific materialism just as it formerly forced theists to believe in religion.  The very essence of determinism is that it does not allow us to choose based on any ground, including an evaluation of the evidence.  And this is what troubles me.  I read one of the Christian philosophers.  He said that if my thoughts are utterly determined by material forces, why should I believe them to be true?  And after listening to your lecture today, I begin to take his point.  Why indeed should we prefer one deterministically caused belief over another?  After all, we say that we know that throughout history, the vast majority of people held a false deterministically caused belief.

Professor:  You aren’t listening to me.  We have good reasons to believe what we do.  Religious bumpkins don’t.

Student:  No, you aren’t listening to me.  Either determinism causes our beliefs or it does not.  By its very nature, determinism is an all-or-nothing proposition.  What gives us the right to say other people’s beliefs are mere evolutionary adaptations but not our own?  Maybe this is why Daniel Dennett called evolution a universal acid.  It dissolves the very mind that purports to believe it.

Comments
ET @105,
UD is not and never has been a theology blog. UD has not and never has prevented people from expressing their theological views.
I don't know why the anti-IDers here want to argue about God. ID is not about God, but about the presumption we make when researching natural phenomena: whether it's more beneficial for science when people presume random chance or when they presume functional design. It does not take any position on the nature and purposes of the designer. The OP initiated the discussion by pointing out the irony of determinism being applied only to religion, but not to science itself. However, B.F. Skinner famously proposed a deterministic (radical) behaviorism and used operant conditioning for his purposes in education. I'm a little surprised that the usual suspects didn't bring him up in the posts. -QQuerius
December 14, 2021
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William J Murray,
Chips aren’t sentient beings. They don’t suffer.
Yes, that's why it's called an analogy. Perhaps some day some chips will be sentient, at least in an AI sense. They'll be able to be programmed to recognize and mimic human emotion. And defective ones would, of course be destroyed so they don't hurt anyone. So, do you think it will be immoral to manufacture sentient chips, knowing beforehand that some of them will be destroyed in the manufacturing process? But you're obviously and specifically disturbed about suffering. Don't you know that according to the Bible, God in human form experienced being tortured to death along with all the anguish of abandonment from carrying all the punishment for the sins of the world, even going to hell for a while--so you wouldn't have to if you choose not to? Logically, you've fallen between the chair and the stool. If God truly exists and truly created all the beauty and dizzying complexity of this world, why do you imagine that God can't be totally and completely fair in evaluating YOU . . . either with perfect justice or loving mercy based on your choosing either justice or mercy? Again, if God can see your free will choices in advance, it's because he can exist in our past, our present, and our future. Foreknowledge doesn't necessitate determinism. Yes, inevitably many people will perish . . . but it doesn't have to include you. -QQuerius
December 14, 2021
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I love how morons conflate UD with some of the commentors. UD is not and never has been a theology blog. UD has not and never has prevented people from expressing their theological views. And seeing that materialism and its bastard child, evolutionism, require more blind faith than any given religion, the anti-ID zealots should just shut up about the topic of theology. They worship at the altar of father time, mother nature and some still unknown processes.ET
December 14, 2021
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... but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
ROFL .... from a God that knew what they were going to do before He even created them. God's the cause of all of this, and He takes it out on us as if we were ever going to do something else.William J Murray
December 14, 2021
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SB@100: I wasn't making an argument about or from my beliefs. Q@97: Chips aren't sentient beings. They don't suffer. Tell me, what is the purpose of eternal torment? Why doesn't God just wink those beings out of existence? Do the fires of hell keep the residents of Heaven warm, and they just need fuel? Is the knowledge that Uncle Jim and daughter Susie are suffering in eternity forever part of the eternal joy of Heaven? Whenever the logic indicts the Christian God, we hear "this isn't a theology blog" from KF. Otherwise, theology is fair subject material all day every day.William J Murray
December 14, 2021
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JS @101 You gotta love it.....chuckdarwin
December 14, 2021
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CD, UD is not a theology blog, however,
However, let me respond with a theological argument. :)Joe Schooner
December 14, 2021
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William J Murray: ---“The very act of forcing a person into a situation by creating them in that situation is a fundamental, original violation of free will. This is egregious because before creating that person, God already knows their outcome will be one of eternal torment, but God goes right ahead and creates them anyway, forcing them into eternal suffering, free will after the fact of being created or not.” This is illogical on several fronts. First of all, it makes no sense to say the creating someone with a free will violates the principle of free will. It is logically impossible to violate something that does not yet exist. You might want to argue that creating someone without permission is “unjust” (never mind that it is impossible to consult them without first creating them) but you don’t believe that there is any such thing as justice, so you have closed off that option as well. In keeping with that claim (there is no justice), you have argued that it doesn’t matter if an innocent man is found guilty in a court of law. So why, all of a sudden, does it matter if someone goes to hell if God knew that it was going to happen. Is there something “unjust” about that? How can something be unjust if no standard for justice exists? This is just one more example of your many contradictory notions.StephenB
December 14, 2021
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Chuckdarwin, No, it's obviously not "satire," but an analogy that you might understand. Nevertheless, as usual, you ignore the questions posed. Obviously, you enjoy the benefits of a computer untroubled by its manufacture. And you might even cook for yourself on occasion, enjoying the pleasures of food, full well knowing that you cut off bits to the garbage or compost bin (as I do). Incidentally, the word "hell" in your Bible is translated from the word, Gehenna, a valley that served as a burning trash dump outside Jerusalem. This fact would have been known to the original listeners. -QQuerius
December 14, 2021
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Querius @97 I seriously hope that this is an attempt at satire. Call it God of the Widgets. And there they are, those biblical quotes, like clockwork at the end of the comment.chuckdarwin
December 14, 2021
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William J Murray and Chuckdarwin,
The very act of forcing a person into a situation by creating them in that situation is a fundamental, original violation of free will. This is egregious because before creating that person, God already knows their outcome will be one of eternal torment, but God goes right ahead and creates them anyway, forcing them into eternal suffering, free will after the fact of being created or not.
When chip companies create microprocessors and other components, they deal with something called yield, which they want to maximize. They know that a certain percentage of chips will turn out to be defective, so they subject the chips to production test. Do you think that computer manufacturers are EVIL PSYCHOPATHS when they create computers because they know FULL WELL that a percentage of the components will be scrapped FOREVER without any hope of repair? Is this the DEEP TRAGEDY of the myth of manufacturing? And when you cook something, how do you feel about the parts you KNOWINGLY AND WILLINGLY cut off to be CONDEMNED FOREVER to your garbage can? Think of the tender shoots of celery with so much life and hope that will suffer at the hands of YOUR merciless knife! You KNEW this would happen before you decided to cook anything. Shame on you! But the Bible says
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? - Ezekiel 18:23
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. - John 3:17
-QQuerius
December 14, 2021
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Kairofocus @95 We will have to agree to disagree as to the nature of this blog. However, I'm not the one quoting the bible at the end of every post....chuckdarwin
December 14, 2021
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CD, UD is not a theology blog, however, I draw your attention to a scripture that speaks to judgement by light and access to grace through responsiveness to the degree of light one has:
Rom 2: 6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking1 and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.
Freedom is defining of humanity and of our capabilities starting with love and with reason. The challenge then becomes, what do we do with the light of truth we have? And that is indicting. KFkairosfocus
December 14, 2021
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WJM @ 92 Great comment. You have just summarized the deep tragedy of Christianity. From Genesis to Revelation, Christian mythology lays out an unprecedented trip through the world of psychopathology without any hope of redemption for the vast majority of folks here without choice. The notion that an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God would consign virtually the entirety of his creation to eternal torment is really beyond human comprehension. That it is a "mystery" and God "has a divine plan" is of little solace.chuckdarwin
December 14, 2021
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Barry Arrington @ 91 Of course I don't understand. What on earth was I thinking............? ;-)chuckdarwin
December 14, 2021
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Querius said:
As has been pointed out multiple times here, someone who can look into the future and see what your free-will choice will be, does not eliminate your free will.
The very act of forcing a person into a situation by creating them in that situation is a fundamental, original violation of free will. This is egregious because before creating that person, God already knows their outcome will be one of eternal torment, but God goes right ahead and creates them anyway, forcing them into eternal suffering, free will after the fact of being created or not. Is it possible that God could have just filled whatever role that person had to play in the Divine Plan with a biological automaton, without an eternal soul that would have to endure the suffering? Is there some logical reason why God could not do that? Let's say there are people in hell who wish they had never been born - something I think would probably be common. Having never existed at all would be my preference over eternal torment. Thus, before I was even created, God would know my preference would have been to have never existed at all, but God violates my free will preference and creates me anyway. Under most common forms of Christianity, God knows billions will suffer for eternity, but creates that scenario anyway, forcing those people into that suffering by creating them anyway. They are the ones paying the eternal price for achieving the ends God desired. I guess the end does justify the means after all. After all, what's a few billion lives in the collateral damage of eternal suffering as long as God gets what He wants in the end? And what does God get in the end, a lot of people who love Him and worship him and are totally obedient to his will? Well, that ain't bad, I guess, if you're an omnipotent psychopath. What is the point of eternal suffering? Can't God just wipe those people out of existence when they die? Or is the knowledge that billions of people are suffering in hell for eternity part of the joy of Heaven? Is that an essential aspect of our love and happiness there, knowing Uncle Jim and daughter Susie are suffering in hell for eternity?William J Murray
December 14, 2021
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Chuckdarwin @ 88, I see. You do not understand the issue. OK. Go back and think about it. And when you understand how the two statements you quoted are complementary, you can come back and leave a comment that goes to the issues raised in the OP.Barry Arrington
December 13, 2021
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Seversky @80,
As I’ve pointed out before, the story of Peter’s triple denial of Christ is Biblical evidence for determinism.
As has been pointed out multiple times here, someone who can look into the future and see what your free-will choice will be, does not eliminate your free will. As has also been pointed out to you by Bornagain77 on multiple occasions, the current scientific understanding of space-time, allows time to elapse at different rates in the presence of strong gravitational fields. This was experimentally verified by the Hafele and Keating Experiment in October, 1971. There’s also something also experimentally verified, called “quantum erasure,” that seems to modify the past based on current choices. Feynman described the positron as an electron moving backwards in time. Do you believe Feynman's assertion? Jesus told Peter that contrary to Peter’s assertion of unwavering commitment, he would deny knowing Jesus three times before the next morning. Afterwards, Jesus gave Peter three opportunities to affirm his love, signifying Jesus’ forgiveness and acceptance with the command, “Feed my sheep.”
My belief is that we do have some freedom of choice but it’s limited just as we are limited beings.
Yes, the scriptures tell us that we’re all in slavery to our sinful passions, and that Christ came to set us free! We’re told we have the choice to repent and God in no way will turn us away. -QQuerius
December 13, 2021
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Per ChuckyD at 10: "What natural selection provides is the neuro-anatomical and physiological apparatus that makes learning and memory possible. This is what is inherited. In simple terms, natural selection provides the capability to learn but not the contents of learning." Well golly gee whiz, busy little beaver that natural selection is. But as the old joke about miracles goes, "can you be a little more explicit here?" I don't think natural selection is nearly as nifty at creating the "neuro-anatomical and physiological apparatus that makes learning and memory possible" as you seem to falsely believe. In fact, via the mathematics of population genetics, it is now known for a fact that natural selection is grossly inadequate as a 'designer substitute'. Specifically, in a model hominin population it would take natural selection 1.5 million years to fix a single point mutation, and the fixation of two co-dependent mutations would require 84 million years, and the fixation of a string of three would require 380 million years.
The waiting time problem in a model hominin population – 2015 Sep 17 John Sanford, Wesley Brewer, Franzine Smith, and John Baumgardner Excerpt: The program Mendel’s Accountant realistically simulates the mutation/selection process,,, Given optimal settings, what is the longest nucleotide string that can arise within a reasonable waiting time within a hominin population of 10,000? Arguably, the waiting time for the fixation of a “string-of-one” is by itself problematic (Table 2). Waiting a minimum of 1.5 million years (realistically, much longer), for a single point mutation is not timely adaptation in the face of any type of pressing evolutionary challenge. This is especially problematic when we consider that it is estimated that it only took six million years for the chimp and human genomes to diverge by over 5 % [1]. This represents at least 75 million nucleotide changes in the human lineage, many of which must encode new information. While fixing one point mutation is problematic, our simulations show that the fixation of two co-dependent mutations is extremely problematic – requiring at least 84 million years (Table 2). This is ten-fold longer than the estimated time required for ape-to-man evolution. In this light, we suggest that a string of two specific mutations is a reasonable upper limit, in terms of the longest string length that is likely to evolve within a hominin population (at least in a way that is either timely or meaningful). Certainly the creation and fixation of a string of three (requiring at least 380 million years) would be extremely untimely (and trivial in effect), in terms of the evolution of modern man. It is widely thought that a larger population size can eliminate the waiting time problem. If that were true, then the waiting time problem would only be meaningful within small populations. While our simulations show that larger populations do help reduce waiting time, we see that the benefit of larger population size produces rapidly diminishing returns (Table 4 and Fig. 4). When we increase the hominin population from 10,000 to 1 million (our current upper limit for these types of experiments), the waiting time for creating a string of five is only reduced from two billion to 482 million years. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4573302/
So again ChuckyD, seeing that natural selection is not nearly as 'up to the task' of creating the "neuro-anatomical and physiological apparatus that makes learning and memory possible" as you seem to falsely imagine, 'can you be a little more explicit here?"
"Then a Miracle Occurs" https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Andrew-Curtis-8/publication/344201300/figure/fig1/AS:934492986421250@1599811898456/1-Then-a-Miracle-Occurs-Harris-2010.png
Simply put, the human brain is 'Beyond Belief', and it is an flagrant insult to intelligence to try to falsely claim, as ChuckyD has done, that it was the result of the mindless accidental processes of natural selection/random mutation.
The Human Brain Is 'Beyond Belief' by Jeffrey P. Tomkins, Ph.D. * - 2017 Excerpt: The human brain,, is an engineering marvel that evokes comments from researchers like “beyond anything they’d imagined, almost to the point of being beyond belief”1 and “a world we had never imagined.”2,,, Perfect Optimization The scientists found that at multiple hierarchical levels in the whole brain, nerve cell clusters (ganglion), and even at the individual cell level, the positioning of neural units achieved a goal that human engineers strive for but find difficult to achieve—the perfect minimizing of connection costs among all the system’s components.,,, Vast Computational Power Researchers discovered that a single synapse is like a computer’s microprocessor containing both memory-storage and information-processing features.,,, Just one synapse alone can contain about 1,000 molecular-scale microprocessor units acting in a quantum computing environment. An average healthy human brain contains some 200 billion nerve cells connected to one another through hundreds of trillions of synapses. To put this in perspective, one of the researchers revealed that the study’s results showed a single human brain has more information processing units than all the computers, routers, and Internet connections on Earth.1,,, Phenomenal Processing Speed the processing speed of the brain had been greatly underrated. In a new research study, scientists found the brain is 10 times more active than previously believed.6,7,,, The large number of dendritic spikes also means the brain has more than 100 times the computational capabilities than was previously believed.,,, Petabyte-Level Memory Capacity Our new measurements of the brain’s memory capacity increase conservative estimates by a factor of 10 to at least a petabyte, in the same ballpark as the World Wide Web.9,,, Optimal Energy Efficiency Stanford scientist who is helping develop computer brains for robots calculated that a computer processor functioning with the computational capacity of the human brain would require at least 10 megawatts to operate properly. This is comparable to the output of a small hydroelectric power plant. As amazing as it may seem, the human brain requires only about 10 watts to function.11 ,,, Multidimensional Processing It is as if the brain reacts to a stimulus by building then razing a tower of multi-dimensional blocks, starting with rods (1D), then planks (2D), then cubes (3D), and then more complex geometries with 4D, 5D, etc. The progression of activity through the brain resembles a multi-dimensional sandcastle that materializes out of the sand and then disintegrates.13 He also said: We found a world that we had never imagined. There are tens of millions of these objects even in a small speck of the brain, up through seven dimensions. In some networks, we even found structures with up to eleven dimensions.13,,, Biophoton Brain Communication Neurons contain many light-sensitive molecules such as porphyrin rings, flavinic, pyridinic rings, lipid chromophores, and aromatic amino acids. Even the mitochondria machines that produce energy inside cells contain several different light-responsive molecules called chromophores. This research suggests that light channeled by filamentous cellular structures called microtubules plays an important role in helping to coordinate activities in different regions of the brain.,,, https://www.icr.org/article/10186
Verse:
Psalm 139:14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
bornagain77
December 13, 2021
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Barry Arrington @ 79 This is what your article says in various iterations, ergo my comment on belief acquisition:
Yes, it is true that evolution selected for a false belief.....
This is what you now claim you are saying:
The thrust of the OP is that from an epistemological perspective, materialistic determinism is self-referentially incoherent.
It's always hard to hit a moving target, no matter how good a shot one may be....chuckdarwin
December 13, 2021
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Barry at 85, talking about sober alcoholics, I heard this moving testimony from a recovering atheist/alcoholic this morning:
Atheist Comedian turns to God after hearing these 5 words. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2qbTeymLz0
bornagain77
December 13, 2021
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Sev's comment reminds me of one of my favorite jokes. I was born in Chelsea, Massachusetts. I didn't necessarily want to be born in Massachusetts. But that was where my mother was, and I needed to be close to her at the time.Barry Arrington
December 13, 2021
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Sev at 80. Sev says "I don’t normally bother with Jack Chick-style caricatures . . ." Then Sev says "My belief is that we do have some freedom of choice but it’s limited just as we are limited beings." Not that is hilarious. Sev and I believe exactly the same thing, but when I say it I am channeling Jack Chick. Memo to Sev. I am aware of no one who argues that every choice is totally unconstrained. An alcoholic's choice about whether to drink alcohol is very heavily constrained indeed. But he has a choice. Otherwise, there would never be any sobor alcoholics. And there are millions.Barry Arrington
December 13, 2021
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My parents had a choice as to where I was born. My parents had the choice to marry and have kids or not. People have chosen to change their sex.ET
December 13, 2021
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seversky:
As I’ve pointed out before, the story of Peter’s triple denial of Christ is Biblical evidence for determinism.
And as I have pointed out you don't know what you are talking about.ET
December 13, 2021
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Seversky at 80 states, "My belief is that we do have some freedom of choice,,," Not to be too picky, but the Darwinian worldview, (which, by the way, you defend tooth and nail as if your very life depended on it), wholeheartedly disagrees with your belief that, "we do have some freedom of choice,,,"
THE ILLUSION OF FREE WILL - Sam Harris - 2012 Excerpt: "Free will is an illusion so convincing that people simply refuse to believe that we don’t have it.,,," - Jerry Coyne https://samharris.org/the-illusion-of-free-will/
That statement by Coyne should literally be the number one example of a self-refuting argument that is given in philosophy 101 classes. Jerry Coyne is not the only, (supposedly smart), person to make blatantly self refuting statements when it comes to free will, Sabine Hossenfelder actually entitled one of her videos, "You don't have free will, but don't worry."
"You don't have free will, but don't worry." - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpU_e3jh_FY
So in the fantasy-land of Darwinian materialism, where free will, and even our sense of self, i.e. consciousness itself, are held to be illusions, 'meat robots' apparently have the capacity to choose to worry or not to worry? :) And even have the capacity to choose to believe that they are meat robots or that they are not meat robots? :)
“You are robots made out of meat. Which is what I am going to try to convince you of today” Jerry Coyne – No, You’re Not a Robot Made Out of Meat (Science Uprising 02) – video https://youtu.be/rQo6SWjwQIk?list=PLR8eQzfCOiS1OmYcqv_yQSpje4p7rAE7-&t=20
Verse:
Romans 1:22-23 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
bornagain77
December 13, 2021
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My belief is that we do have some freedom of choice but it’s limited just as we are limited beings.
Absolutely true. But the rest of the comment is irrelevant and supports ID. ID professes belief in 99.9999% of scientific findings based on the deterministic laws of physics. But there is that very, very, very small percentage that don’t fit the pattern. Because, a huge percentage of the world is deterministic, it’s a logical fallacy to conclude all is deterministic. Especially since that very small percentage has become wide spread here. Who would say that the extremely large cities that have emerged are due to deterministic causes? Most of us expect to only find deterministic examples wherever we look in the universe. But would we be surprised if there were examples that were not?
As I’ve pointed out before, the story of Peter’s triple denial of Christ is Biblical evidence for determinism
No, it’s evidence that fears pervades our lives. The reaction to the current pandemic is fear. Not fear of the virus, which is very small for most but fear of those in charge who are trying to dictate how we must behave or else we will be cancelled - mainly our livelihood will be canceled. Aside: notice I spelled “canceled” two different ways. My spell checker accepted both and this apparently has a history.jerry
December 13, 2021
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Barry Arrington/26
Sev at 3. As has been pointed out, even if I assume arguendo that your statement is correct, it has nothing to do with the OP. Your effort to change the subject indicates you have no response to the subject. Fair enough.
I don't normally bother with Jack Chick-style caricatures but if you insist. Did you have any choice about what planet you were born on? Did you have any choice about the species of animal you are? Did you have a choice about what country you were born in? Did you have a choice about who your parents were? Did you have a choice about when you were born? Did you have a choice about what sex you became? Did you have a choice about your sexuality? As I've pointed out before, the story of Peter's triple denial of Christ is Biblical evidence for determinism. There is no doubt that there is a great deal about us that is determined, over which we had no choice. The only question is to what limited extent, if any, do we have freedom of choice. My belief is that we do have some freedom of choice but it's limited just as we are limited beings.Seversky
December 13, 2021
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Chuck @ 75 Oh yes, comment 10 in which you tried to pretend that the entire field of evolutionary psychology does not exist or, if it does, that it was developed by a Christian apologist. That was amusing but not even close to a response to the OP. Allow me to lay it out for you Chuck. The thrust of the OP is that from an epistemological perspective, materialistic determinism is self-referentially incoherent. It is like the proverbial snake that eats its own tail. None of our Darwinian interlocutors, including you, have pushed back in the least on that claim. If you do have a response, believe me I would love to hear it.Barry Arrington
December 13, 2021
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died in 2012, fyi
Thank you. As I said he had a sharp pen.jerry
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