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Difference between Organization and Order

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In my previous post Silver Asiatic asked:

“What do you mean by organization being of a higher order than simple order? Why don’t these [natural] forces produce organization? Those are better areas for discussion, in my opinion.” (comment #122)

Organization

I think the distinction organization vs. order is fundamental in the design / evolution debate. Perhaps the easiest way to help us understand this difference is to consider computer software. Software clearly implies the four basic aspects of organization I listed there: hierarchy of functions and tasks, control-power, inter-process communication. Also biological systems, from cells to higher organisms, show all these aspects (“organ-isms” contain organs). Life is software. (Disclaimer: obviously here I consider only the cybernetic aspects of biology, I am not dealing with mind, soul, spirit, etc..) Organisms are organized as computer networks. This sort of isomorphism (similar mathematical structure) between software and biology is also the reason why one needs the former to understand, model and simulate the latter.

Organization is what gives a multiplicity of parts an organic unity. In other words, organization is an holistic concept, according to which a true whole is higher than the sum of its parts (see here). The parts of an airplane per se don’t fly, their organization causes this capacity of the whole airplane. Analogously, the chemicals per se don’t make life, their organization causes the life capacity of the whole organism. Life is organization.

Box rightly said:

“These arguments from organization stem from holism. When we observe an organism, we observe a whole. We do not observe a bag of chemicals, as materialism/Darwinism wants us to believe.” (comment #82)

Similarly:

“The living being has inside himself his own principle of unity, superior to the multiplicity of the elements that take part in his constitution.” (René Guénon, “Autorité spirituelle et pouvoir temporel”, chap. 5 [my translation])

Order

Differently, order is lower in essence than organization. Order means simply configuration, pattern, layout of elements in the space. Examples: my books are ordered in their book-shelf; atoms are ordered in the crystals; cars are ordered in the parking. No one of the above aspects of organization is present. Order is simple static patterns, organization is complex dynamic systems. In computer programming order can be formalized by means of mere definition and assignment of variables (the simplest thing of software). Example, the bookshelf layout can be described (in Perl language) by means of a single variable $bookshelf:

$bookshelf = <<EOV;
BB BBBBB BB
———————–
BB BBB
———————–
BBBBB BBBB
———————–
EOV

No function, no task, no control, no communication is necessary to describe the bookshelf layout. In general, order needs simply the definition of variables and the assignment of values, which the computer will store in its memory. If to define order implies only the simplest software concept, while to define organization we need all the more complex stuff of software, that means that order has inferior rank than organization.

If we have to model the working of a biological cell we need all the organizational power of a programming language: functions, processes, controls, communication and many other advanced features. Example, in computer programming the simplest decision instruction able to perform a control or regulation has the structure:

# prior situation
if (_conditions_) {
_action1_
} else {
_action2_
}
# after situation

Note that decision implies choice among two or more alternatives, depending on conditions. A decision breaks the causal chain and inserts a choice discontinuity between "prior situation" and "after situation". These kind of decisional constructs can be nested ad libitum in a program to create complex control chains. Software is control. But "complex control/regulation chains" is a ritornello you find also countless times in the texts on cellular biology or systems biology. Norbert Wiener defines cybernetics as the science that deals with "control and communication in systems and organisms". Similarly, in Mike Behe's "Darwin's black box" the string "control*" appears 66 times and the string "regulat*" 62 times. Behe explicitly writes:

“The essence of cellular life is regulation: the cell controls how much and what kinds of chemicals it makes; when it loses control, it dies.” (“Darwin’s black box”, chap 9, pag. 191)

Why don’t natural forces produce organization?

Natural laws can be described by means of a basic set of equations. These equations represent the direct relations between variables, and directly assign values to these variables. Here a key point is the term “direct” and “directly”. Example, in classical physics the Newton’s formula “f=m*a” assigns a value to “f” (or “m” or “a”) when the other two are known. That’s simple. The formula doesn’t contain the least control structure, implying a discontinuity. In fact Newton’s second law of motion is not something like this:

# prior situation
f= {if (_conditions_) {_action1(m) _} else {_action2(m) _}} * a
# after situation

Note that in the original formula f=m*a, between a “prior situation” and an “after situation”, there is no discontinuity due to decisions that break the causation by introducing choices (as massively exist in software). This is an important point: in natural laws there aren’t decisions; natural laws have no choices. This is true for all physical laws, also when they are expressed as differential equations (wave equation, Maxwell’s equations, Schrödinger equation…). This lack of decision-control-choice implies that natural laws potentially contain no organization, in the sense I defined at the beginning.

Since natural laws contain in potency no organization to greater reason they cannot create organization. In fact in general what creates must always be higher in essence and more powerful than what is created. Otherwise we would have an illogic situation where more comes from less. In a similar sense Thomas Aquinas said “Since in the world there are many intelligent causes, the first Motor couldn’t cause unintelligently.” (Summa contra Gentiles, I, 44 [my translation]). If the organizational potential of the cause is zero, a fortiori the organization of its effects is zero. In Aristotelian terms, if a thing is null “in potency”, is also null “in act”. So it is impossible that natural laws, as we know them, produce organization.

Obviously if natural laws (necessity) are unable to create organization, to greater reason randomness (chance) is unable. In fact, randomness not even has the minimum power that natural laws have and provide. Chance is lower in rank than laws. If chance and necessity, taken alone, are incapable of organization, also considered working together they are incapable (the sum of two zeroes is zero).

Conclusion: given chance and necessity per se are incapable to produce organization, the best explanation for the formidable organization of the universe and its living beings is a designing Intelligence (Source of knowledge), who has thought it as an overall organic unique project.

Comments
Just because Newton couldn’t manipulate the orbits of planets
Newton knew that an intelligent agency set it all up and got it all running. Nice own goal, againJoe
December 2, 2014
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Zachriel, In addition to the challenge in 53, Please also explain why, when you have tilted the chessboard, it is no longer possible to play. What role the laws of nature have in helping organize a chess game in either case?EugeneS
December 2, 2014
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Zachriel, Please expound on #52, I am not a biologist and I can get details wrong (BTW that was taken from Karl Popper). More importantly, could you expound on how the existence of RNA explains the emergence of code. How can RNA 'act' without first being placed into the corresponding informational context? Will you be able to understand me if I suddenly switch to Russian? You are conflating two explanational layers. Matter does not 'act'. Actors come into 'play' only at the level of decision making and information processing. Code presupposes the existence of an abstract protocol of encoding/interpretation. I'd like to repeat the challenge for you:
Please explain the rules of chess using only Newtonian mechanics.
EugeneS
December 2, 2014
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EugeneS: Nature cannot create symbol systems as well as abstract protocols (i.e. rules) to interpret them in a way that is totally decoupled from the necessity of natural law. That's the claim. EugeneS: There are no physical laws that could possibly explain the existence of code. E.g. for genetic code to be of any use, it needs to be part of protein synthesis That is incorrect. RNA can act as an enzyme and as genetic memory. Silver Asiatic: How do you know what is nature constrained by, and knowing that, what is it? Just because Newton couldn’t manipulate the orbits of planets or launch an artificial satellite doesn’t mean he couldn’t propose a theory of their motions. Silver Asiatic: I’d like to hear a speculation on how a mindless natural process develops code. One hypothesis is RNA World. While this may or may not represent what actually happened, it does show that a priori arguments that a code can't originate from simpler relationships are misplaced.Zachriel
December 1, 2014
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Thank you Silver Asiatic, As niwrad says, we are indeed on the same frequency!EugeneS
December 1, 2014
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Rules of chess, rules of logic, mathematics, language, truth vs falsehood ... Again, I haven't seen much if any explanation for the origin of these things by natural physical/chemical processes.Silver Asiatic
December 1, 2014
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EugeneS #47 Excellent points.
There are no physical laws that could possibly explain the existence of code.
I'd like to hear a speculation on how a mindless natural process develops code. I've read a few of them but there must be others.
Your example of weather as an information processing decision making organized system is totally nonsensical to me. This is because there is neither signal processing nor feedback control in nature outside of life and artificial information processing systems.
Feedback control seems an essential part of the process. This is true in communication or the development of code- both sender and receiver have to agree. The process needs to be repeatable with symbols that retain meaning - so feedback on success is necessary. It's the same with the if/then decisions in code. With no feedback, error checking and control, there's no validation for success and the signal wouldn't be repeated.Silver Asiatic
December 1, 2014
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Zachriel
Nature isn’t constrained by human technical limitations.
How do you know what is nature constrained by, and knowing that, what is it?Silver Asiatic
December 1, 2014
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Zachriel (#45), It's the other way around, Zachriel. Nature is much more constrained than humans! Nature cannot create symbol systems as well as abstract protocols (i.e. rules) to interpret them in a way that is totally decoupled from the necessity of natural law. To create them takes the capacity of decision making, the capacity of choice from among equally physically indeterminate states. How can you explain the rules of chess using Newton's laws of the motion of solids? You can't! It is a different level of reality. Rules (abstract non-physical protocols) are NOT physical constraints (laws). Code can only be explained as a result of a decision making process. There are no physical laws that could possibly explain the existence of code. E.g. for genetic code to be of any use, it needs to be part of protein synthesis; for this to happen it needs to be translated; and for this to happen the translation process requires the existence of its own products. According to Popper, that is the vicious circle any coherent model of life must be able to address. Every material symbol system (including genetic code) is subject to the physical laws but is not reducible to them. Your example of weather as an information processing decision making organized system is totally nonsensical to me. This is because there is neither signal processing nor feedback control in nature outside of life and artificial information processing systems.EugeneS
December 1, 2014
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niwrad: Then to create organization you provide energy *only*? Human organizations can either be created by global planning (e.g. government), or unplanned through individual actions (e.g. markets). Ecosystems organize through a competition and cooperation between species. Storm systems organize once they reach a critical point. No one knows how life began, but evolution has increased the level of biological organization through natural selection and other mechanisms.Zachriel
December 1, 2014
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Silver Asiatic: If this was reducible to chemical processes alone, we should be able to recreate it in a lab setting, but that hasn’t happened. Nature isn't constrained by human technical limitations. Just because Newton couldn't manipulate the orbits of planets or launch an artificial satellite doesn't mean he couldn't propose a theory of their motions.Zachriel
December 1, 2014
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Zachriel #42 niwrad: "Organization has a cost. What is such cost?" You: "The cost is energy, the same cost as for any activity." Then to create organization you provide energy *only*? To organize, say, an industry what it takes is only power supply, why not a cheap car battery? No need of skill, intelligence, knowledge, information whatsoever...! You evolutionists are priceless.niwrad
December 1, 2014
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Quoting Michael Denton from VJ Torley's recent post:
On the surface of the cell we would see millions of openings, like the portholes of a vast space ship, opening and closing to allow a continual stream of materials to flow in and out. If we were to enter one of these openings with find ourselves in a world of supreme technology and bewildering complexity. We would see endless highly organized corridors and conduits branching in every direction away from the perimeter of the cell, some leading to the central memory bank in the nucleus and others to assembly plants and processing units. The nucleus of itself would be a vast spherical chamber more than a kilometer in diameter, resembling a geodesic dome inside of which we would see, all neatly stacked together in ordered arrays, the miles of coiled chains of the DNA molecules. A huge range of products and raw materials would shuttle along all the manifold conduits in a highly ordered fashion to and from all the various assembly plants in the outer regions of the cell. We would wonder at the level of control implicit in the movement of so many objects down so many seemingly endless conduits, all in perfect unison. We would see all around us, in every direction we looked, all sorts of robot-like machines. We would notice that the simplest of the functional components of the cell, the protein molecules, were astonishingly, complex pieces of molecular machinery, each one consisting of about three thousand atoms arranged in highly organized 3-D spatial conformation. We would wonder even more as we watched the strangely purposeful activities of these weird molecular machines, particularly when we realized that, despite all our accumulated knowledge of physics and chemistry, the task of designing one such molecular machine – that is one single functional protein molecule – would be completely beyond our capacity at present and will probably not be achieved until at least the beginning of the next century. Yet the life of the cell depends on the integrated activities of thousands, certainly tens, and probably hundreds of thousands of different protein molecules.
This is an organized system with variable control. If this was reducible to chemical processes alone, we should be able to recreate it in a lab setting, but that hasn't happened.Silver Asiatic
December 1, 2014
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niwrad: Well, then you believe organization has a cost. What is such cost? Actually, pointing out a problem with your argument doesn't imply any particular position, and that problem remains even if we are wrong on other points. The cost is energy, the same cost as for any activity. Upright BiPed: your response is just a non-answer The response to the claim concerning the necessity of genomic memory is to show that an evolutionary pathway connecting simple metabolism with genomic memory is possible. There are various nucleic acid candidates.Zachriel
December 1, 2014
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Thank you Eugene S. Also, I agree with your assessment.Upright BiPed
November 30, 2014
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I just want to say thank-you to niwrad and to Upright BiPed for their excellent comments. I consider the point of this OP the real ID stuff that cuts to the heart of the ID vs. non-ID argument. Kolmogorov complexity and pattern-related discussions cannot achieve this, in my opinion. On the contrary, biosemiosis, prescriptive information, organization vs order/chaos do the job for us. Compressibility only relates to where we are along the order-chaos axis, whereas organization and function are altogether a different matter. To conflate order with organization is a gross category error.EugeneS
November 30, 2014
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If you think my assessment in #38 is incorrect, then by all means, give me some conceptualization of how a minimal necessary set of representations arise from the physics involved. Give me some set of clarifying steps that causes this assembly to occur. Define when a set of energy-degenerate structures become formally and functionally established in a rate-dependent system, tell us of the forces that physically sustains this transitional event over the time required to accomplish it.Upright BiPed
November 30, 2014
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Most researchers understand that life requires a genetic memory, but it doesn’t necessarily represent a barrier if the storage molecule can also directly act as an enzyme, and later evolve into a more complete separation of phenotype and genotype.
When I was a child I remember my grandmother having a doorstop in her kitchen made of cast iron. It was about 6 inches long and was cast in the shape of four English letters -- eggs. It was an example of a symbolic representation, made of a specific material that served a function which had nothing whatsoever to do with its symbolic nature. The rate-independent structure of the representation was not explained by the rate-dependent structure of the iron that served as a weight. The rate-dependent enzymatic properties of RNA have nothing whatsoever to do with establishing a rate-independent representation in RNA. As a matter of universal observation, a representation is not established by the material properties of the representation at all. Appealing to the properties of a medium to explain the rise of a representation is a category error. Zachriel, with all due respect, your response is just a non-answer. It’s an appeal to authority and does nothing whatsoever to address the physics involved. In fact, it avoids those physics in lieu of investigator preference. Neither I nor anyone else is obligated to defer to obvious shortcomings in reason.Upright BiPed
November 30, 2014
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Zachriel Premise: "niwrad-organization" is exactly the "organization" tout court you find everywhere where things are organized. I accuse you "You believe in gratis organization", you reply "No". Well, then you believe organization has a cost. What is such cost? Obviously the organizational potentiality that the system must have inside itself or that an organization source injects into it from outside. I affirm exactly that and you refute my affirmation. Do you see your inconsistency?niwrad
November 30, 2014
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niwrad: You believe in gratis organization No. We just pointed out that you handwave from point A to point B. You define niwrad-organization, which is fine, then jump right to saying niwrad-organization can't happen naturally.Zachriel
November 30, 2014
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Zachriel
If the table were slightly tilted, then the odds are increased considerably that many of the balls will be in a straight line. That’s an example of how laws can interact to produce unexpected results. Sometimes those interactions result in self-organization (as normally construed).
Indeed your example shows that my argument is ok. You tilt the table and get... surprise... more alignment, ie more order, not more organization. This result is not at all "unexpected", rather is perfectly expectable if you tilt a billiard with balls. Differently it is not expectable that the balls form a computer running instructions... You are a perfect evolutionist. You believe in gratis organization, in "blood from a turnip" (as some say in my country), in more from less. I discussed many times with evolutionists about these illusions. They have never provided a single real example supporting them, but they have a big faith. I don't pretend to convince you. If my ID companions have not succeeded in the task thus far, go figure if I do. For me is ok if you maintain your illusions. But, since I am a friend after all, I offer a warning: it is said that "illusions have the bad habit to knife us in the back"...niwrad
November 30, 2014
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niwrad: Your objection is that my argument contra natural laws producing organization is well contra natural laws producing order? The objection is that it is an argument from incredulity. niwrad: Let’s consider a giant billiard, let’s make fall upon it 1000 billiard balls and wait for they stop in certain 1000 final positions. What deters that 5 balls be sequential and aligned on a straight line? If the table were slightly tilted, then the odds are increased considerably that many of the balls will be in a straight line. That's an example of how laws can interact to produce unexpected results. Sometimes those interactions result in self-organization (as normally construed). niwrad: My argument would be really stupid if it refuted such phenomena As we stated previously, you don't argue against weather being due to natural forces, though many people once thought capricious weather reflected capricious gods. Your argument was of the same *form* as an argument against ordering. niwrad: That’s impossible because — in short — mechanics laws don’t contain “in potency” such organizing “act”. That’s my argument. Yes, but it's not an argument, just a restatement of your claim.Zachriel
November 30, 2014
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Zachriel
We didn’t say you were incredulous. We said the argument was of the same form.
Your objection is that my argument contra natural laws producing organization is well contra natural laws producing order? I don't even understand why you put forward such unbelievable objection. I try to explain it for the n-th times, with a practical example, why my argument doesn't do that. Let's consider a giant billiard, let's make fall upon it 1000 billiard balls and wait for they stop in certain 1000 final positions. What deters that 5 balls be sequential and aligned on a straight line? Obviously nothing, that is improbable but not impossible. The mechanics laws (F=ma included) work in few seconds and nothing in them deters in principle the alignment. My argument would be really stupid if it refuted such phenomena, don't you think? On the contrary, my argument does maintain that such phenomena are perfectly compatible with all the mechanics laws. In fact it does even assume that such laws contain the potentiality of such phenomena. Really I don't understand why *you* deny such conceptual evidence (you use *we* but here only *you* do that). What my argument refutes for principle reasons is -- e.g. -- that such balls fall produce a mechanical computer running programs written in a language. That's impossible because -- in short -- mechanics laws don't contain "in potency" such organizing "act". That's my argument.niwrad
November 30, 2014
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Upright BiPed: Formulations like f=ma are based on the exchange of energy and the rate of exchange of energy. But the physical constraints placed on, for instance, the organization and production of enzymes inside the cell, stem from physical structures that are rate-independent (what Pattee refers to as energy-degenerate structures). Most researchers understand that life requires a genetic memory, but it doesn't necessarily represent a barrier if the storage molecule can also directly act as an enzyme, and later evolve into a more complete separation of phenotype and genotype. niwrad: So, I have no incredulity about this sort of alignments. We didn't say you were incredulous. We said the argument was of the same form.Zachriel
November 29, 2014
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Box, thanks,,, How Does an Organism Get Its Shape? - The Causal Role of Biological Form - Stephen L. Talbott - November 11, 2014 Excerpt: The scientifically educated person today, bound by irresistible conviction, “knows” that the causes of material phenomena are rooted solely in physical things, and that the interactions among these causal things explain the forms we see in the world. Any claim that a principle of form can itself be causal — that it explains the appearance of physical things rather than being explained by them — would be met by incredulity. Such a claim, however, was ventured by the late philosopher, Ronald Brady, in a 1987 paper* that some day, I suspect, will be viewed as a forward-looking and foundational document for twenty-first century biology.,,, http://natureinstitute.org/txt/st/org/comm/ar/2014/brady_24.htmbornagain77
November 29, 2014
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Box #29 Thanks, also for the link to Talbott's article. You are right, it is really an important one, it intelligently deals with what we could call the "analog information" aspects of organisms. We often focus on the "digital information" aspect (genomics), less often we think that those engineering masterpieces necessarily involve "form" in its highest meaning, which is exactly what Talbott's article speaks about. Good suggestion yours, which leads all us to very interesting ID meditations...niwrad
November 29, 2014
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Niwrad, thank you for yet another great article. Semi-related: you may be interested in this article by Stephen Talbott which deals with the causal role of form in biology. If there is one ID-proponent who is interested in this subject it must be you.Box
November 29, 2014
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Zachriel
But your argument is the same whether refuting your notion of organization, or someone who refutes “spectacular” ordering. There’s a gap in your argument which comes done to incredulity.
No, it isn't the same. Atomic equations don't forbid that atoms align in crystals. There is nothing in them forbidding the alignment. So, I have no incredulity about this sort of alignments. My argument maintains that such equations contains potentially the alignments to form crystals, given a certain environment. But the same equations don't contain the potentiality to form -- say -- a computer, which is an example of organization as considered here. You can get from Schrödinger's equation the explanations of many atomic phenomena, but you cannot get the explanation of a computer. Because such explanation implies tons of theories that aren't contained in such differential equation, like matrix algebra -- e.g. -- is not contained, neither explicitly nor implicitly, in F=ma.niwrad
November 29, 2014
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Formulations like f=ma are based on the exchange of energy and the rate of exchange of energy. But the physical constraints placed on, for instance, the organization and production of enzymes inside the cell, stem from physical structures that are rate-independent (what Pattee refers to as energy-degenerate structures). It's not incredulity, it's physics.Upright BiPed
November 29, 2014
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niwrad: F=ma was only a simple example of an equation of physics. Yes, we understood it to represent the equations associated with physical processes. niwrad: My argument doesn’t refute at all such ordering, which can be also spectacular per se. My aim is not to depreciate order. But your argument is the same whether refuting your notion of organization, or someone who refutes "spectacular" ordering. There's a gap in your argument which comes done to incredulity.Zachriel
November 29, 2014
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