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Difference between Organization and Order

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In my previous post Silver Asiatic asked:

“What do you mean by organization being of a higher order than simple order? Why don’t these [natural] forces produce organization? Those are better areas for discussion, in my opinion.” (comment #122)

Organization

I think the distinction organization vs. order is fundamental in the design / evolution debate. Perhaps the easiest way to help us understand this difference is to consider computer software. Software clearly implies the four basic aspects of organization I listed there: hierarchy of functions and tasks, control-power, inter-process communication. Also biological systems, from cells to higher organisms, show all these aspects (“organ-isms” contain organs). Life is software. (Disclaimer: obviously here I consider only the cybernetic aspects of biology, I am not dealing with mind, soul, spirit, etc..) Organisms are organized as computer networks. This sort of isomorphism (similar mathematical structure) between software and biology is also the reason why one needs the former to understand, model and simulate the latter.

Organization is what gives a multiplicity of parts an organic unity. In other words, organization is an holistic concept, according to which a true whole is higher than the sum of its parts (see here). The parts of an airplane per se don’t fly, their organization causes this capacity of the whole airplane. Analogously, the chemicals per se don’t make life, their organization causes the life capacity of the whole organism. Life is organization.

Box rightly said:

“These arguments from organization stem from holism. When we observe an organism, we observe a whole. We do not observe a bag of chemicals, as materialism/Darwinism wants us to believe.” (comment #82)

Similarly:

“The living being has inside himself his own principle of unity, superior to the multiplicity of the elements that take part in his constitution.” (René Guénon, “Autorité spirituelle et pouvoir temporel”, chap. 5 [my translation])

Order

Differently, order is lower in essence than organization. Order means simply configuration, pattern, layout of elements in the space. Examples: my books are ordered in their book-shelf; atoms are ordered in the crystals; cars are ordered in the parking. No one of the above aspects of organization is present. Order is simple static patterns, organization is complex dynamic systems. In computer programming order can be formalized by means of mere definition and assignment of variables (the simplest thing of software). Example, the bookshelf layout can be described (in Perl language) by means of a single variable $bookshelf:

$bookshelf = <<EOV;
BB BBBBB BB
———————–
BB BBB
———————–
BBBBB BBBB
———————–
EOV

No function, no task, no control, no communication is necessary to describe the bookshelf layout. In general, order needs simply the definition of variables and the assignment of values, which the computer will store in its memory. If to define order implies only the simplest software concept, while to define organization we need all the more complex stuff of software, that means that order has inferior rank than organization.

If we have to model the working of a biological cell we need all the organizational power of a programming language: functions, processes, controls, communication and many other advanced features. Example, in computer programming the simplest decision instruction able to perform a control or regulation has the structure:

# prior situation
if (_conditions_) {
_action1_
} else {
_action2_
}
# after situation

Note that decision implies choice among two or more alternatives, depending on conditions. A decision breaks the causal chain and inserts a choice discontinuity between "prior situation" and "after situation". These kind of decisional constructs can be nested ad libitum in a program to create complex control chains. Software is control. But "complex control/regulation chains" is a ritornello you find also countless times in the texts on cellular biology or systems biology. Norbert Wiener defines cybernetics as the science that deals with "control and communication in systems and organisms". Similarly, in Mike Behe's "Darwin's black box" the string "control*" appears 66 times and the string "regulat*" 62 times. Behe explicitly writes:

“The essence of cellular life is regulation: the cell controls how much and what kinds of chemicals it makes; when it loses control, it dies.” (“Darwin’s black box”, chap 9, pag. 191)

Why don’t natural forces produce organization?

Natural laws can be described by means of a basic set of equations. These equations represent the direct relations between variables, and directly assign values to these variables. Here a key point is the term “direct” and “directly”. Example, in classical physics the Newton’s formula “f=m*a” assigns a value to “f” (or “m” or “a”) when the other two are known. That’s simple. The formula doesn’t contain the least control structure, implying a discontinuity. In fact Newton’s second law of motion is not something like this:

# prior situation
f= {if (_conditions_) {_action1(m) _} else {_action2(m) _}} * a
# after situation

Note that in the original formula f=m*a, between a “prior situation” and an “after situation”, there is no discontinuity due to decisions that break the causation by introducing choices (as massively exist in software). This is an important point: in natural laws there aren’t decisions; natural laws have no choices. This is true for all physical laws, also when they are expressed as differential equations (wave equation, Maxwell’s equations, Schrödinger equation…). This lack of decision-control-choice implies that natural laws potentially contain no organization, in the sense I defined at the beginning.

Since natural laws contain in potency no organization to greater reason they cannot create organization. In fact in general what creates must always be higher in essence and more powerful than what is created. Otherwise we would have an illogic situation where more comes from less. In a similar sense Thomas Aquinas said “Since in the world there are many intelligent causes, the first Motor couldn’t cause unintelligently.” (Summa contra Gentiles, I, 44 [my translation]). If the organizational potential of the cause is zero, a fortiori the organization of its effects is zero. In Aristotelian terms, if a thing is null “in potency”, is also null “in act”. So it is impossible that natural laws, as we know them, produce organization.

Obviously if natural laws (necessity) are unable to create organization, to greater reason randomness (chance) is unable. In fact, randomness not even has the minimum power that natural laws have and provide. Chance is lower in rank than laws. If chance and necessity, taken alone, are incapable of organization, also considered working together they are incapable (the sum of two zeroes is zero).

Conclusion: given chance and necessity per se are incapable to produce organization, the best explanation for the formidable organization of the universe and its living beings is a designing Intelligence (Source of knowledge), who has thought it as an overall organic unique project.

Comments
Zachriel #83
In any case, the global properties of industries in free markets are also unplanned.
"Global properties of industries unplanned". "Unplanned" is a fixation for you. But your posts are planned or unplanned? They at least are planned or no? You could make a movie titled "Unplanned", so you should *plan* the *Unplanned*! Don't you like the oxymoron?
Is it usual for you to change your own claim in order to argue for it? You had argued that it was the inherently impossible for unorganized matter to self-organize (given “organization is an holistic concept, according to which a true whole is higher than the sum of its parts”), in which case, it doesn’t matter whether we’re considering modern cellular life, or something more primitive.
Sorry but I don't understand what you mean here, my fault. Anyway it is usual for me to be patient with evolutionists, so we can continue to happily discuss for eternity...of course without never converging to an agreement.niwrad
December 2, 2014
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Under materialism a cell is just a bag of molecules. In a cell all the molecules are involved in chemical processes, so there is a constant change of content of the cell. Different content requires different restraints (organization) - otherwise a cell will just fall apart. If organization (homeostasis) is maintained, while the content is ever changing, then there is continues synchronous apt change in the form of organization. So, it is not the case that a static set of molecules in condition '1' needs to find one static matching organization form. No, it is something like this: a set of interacting molecules in ever changing conditions 1,2,3 and so forth needs to find a highly flexible ever changing matching organization form. Organization (homeostasis) is not a static equilibrium. It is a fluid shifting from one equilibrium to the next. It’s safe to say that during the life of a single cell, the cell is never the same. EDITED: IOW the task for molecules is not to "just" find a "static" organization (which is arguably impossible) but a miraculous highly flexible form of organization.Box
December 2, 2014
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niwrad: I am not interested at all about the “global properties of free markets”. In am interested only on the organization of *industries* Is it usual for you to change a claim in order to argue against it? In any case, the global properties of industries in free markets are also unplanned. niwrad: From the point of view of the organization of a complete cell, that is zero. Is it usual for you to change your own claim in order to argue for it? You had argued that it was the inherently impossible for unorganized matter to self-organize (given "organization is an holistic concept, according to which a true whole is higher than the sum of its parts"), in which case, it doesn't matter whether we're considering modern cellular life, or something more primitive.Zachriel
December 2, 2014
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Zachriel #81
The global properties of free markets are unplanned.
Again. I am not speaking of the "global properties of free markets". I am not interested at all about the "global properties of free markets". In am interested only on the organization of *industries*, a topic that clearly you hate because you are somehow allergic to organization sensu lato...
The molecule can autocatalyze; it does more than zero.
From the point of view of the organization of a complete cell, that is zero.niwrad
December 2, 2014
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niwrad: If you even continue to not recognize that *industries* (IBM, Apple, Microsoft, Google…) are organized by intelligence I will have an hard time to explain you organization in biology… This isn't controversial in economics. The global properties of free markets are unplanned. If you don't understand that, then it will be difficult to explain to you organization in biology. niwrad: The molecule per se does zero. The molecule can autocatalyze; it does more than zero.Zachriel
December 2, 2014
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Zachriel #79
"The global structure of markets are not planned. They are the result of individual decisions made based on local conditions without regard to global effects."
What smoke screen. If you even continue to not recognize that *industries* (IBM, Apple, Microsoft, Google...) are organized by intelligence I will have an hard time to explain you organization in biology...
The molecule can act both metabolically and genomically.
The molecule per se does zero. If it acts metabolically and genomically it is only because of the surrounding cellular *organization*. But that is exactly what you continue to refute. P.S. Why don't you meditate on the excellent EugeneS' arguments?niwrad
December 2, 2014
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niwrad: Don’t hidden yourself behind Investopedia. We're not hiding. We're pointing to an economic resource on an economic question. We could point to economic scholarship instead; the answer would be the same. niwrad: At the very end, organizations in any economy are always planned, ie designed, by individuals. The global structure of markets are not planned. They are the result of individual decisions made based on local conditions without regard to global effects. niwrad: Here you are the only one who doesn’t see it. What we see is that you claim that code relationships can't evolve from non-code relationships, 'cause. niwrad: That is like to say that a molecule bridges the gap between a car battery and a computer. No, because the molecule can act both metabolically and genomically. EugeneS: How and by means of what?! RNA is a sequence just like DNA, so it has genetic memory. However, RNA can also act as an enzyme. That means it can perform the actions of a gene and a protein.Zachriel
December 2, 2014
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Zachriel, And with RNA, storage, retrieval and interpretation are all expressed in the one molecule. Last time you used the word 'acts' and now you say 'expressed'. How and by means of what?! If by this phrase you mean to say you have managed to explain away the need for a protocol, you are mistaken. That this all is presented by a single material object does not change anything! You still need an abstract representation, storage, retrieval and interpretation according to a non-physical protocol. The game of chess can be played with cherry stones, muffins, bricks or what have you. In all those 'implementations' it will remain essentially the same game provided the rules are kept the same. Semantics is irreducible to media. I can convey the same message verbally, by plain text, or using Braille, Morse code or hand signs. A medium is important but secondary. The protocol comes first.EugeneS
December 2, 2014
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Zachriel #76 Don't hidden yourself behind Investopedia. At the very end, organizations in any economy are always planned, ie designed, by individuals. Organization is always designed in any field, that's was my point.
Zachriel: "We didn’t see such a proof."
Here you are the only one who doesn't see it.
Zachriel: "We provided a simple counterexample to the claim, a molecule that bridges the gap between the metabolic and cybernetic worlds."
That is like to say that a molecule bridges the gap between a car battery and a computer.niwrad
December 2, 2014
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niwrad: I provided the proof that codes don’t arise from thin air indeed in my article. We didn't see such a proof. We saw a long restatement of the claim. We provided a simple counterexample to the claim, a molecule that bridges the gap between the metabolic and cybernetic worlds. niwrad: you say organizations are planned when made by the government (composed of individuals) but are unplanned when made by individuals? It's standard economics. Investopedia: "The activity in a market economy is unplanned; it is not organized by any central authority and is determined by the supply and demand of goods and services. Alternatively, a command economy is organized by government officials who also own and direct the factors of production."Zachriel
December 2, 2014
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Zachriel #69: "We provided the relevant distinction. There is a possible pathway from the metabolic to the genomic. Rewording a claim doesn’t constitute an argument."
Your distinction doesn't work, chess rules are exactly a code as bio-codes. I provided the proof that codes don't arise from thin air indeed in my article. In fact codes are a form of organization.
Zachriel #46: "Human organizations can either be created by global planning (e.g. government), or unplanned through individual actions (e.g. markets)."
Ah, you say organizations are planned when made by the government (composed of individuals) but are unplanned when made by individuals? If this is your logic power in simple issues I wonder what hell are your "pathways from the metabolic to the genomic"...niwrad
December 2, 2014
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EugeneS: I am beginning to doubt that. Your position is that a code relationship can't evolve from a non-code relationship. EugeneS: As soon as you say ‘storage’, retrieval and interpretation are immediately entailed. And with RNA, storage, retrieval and interpretation are all expressed in the one molecule.Zachriel
December 2, 2014
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Zachriel: Yes, we understand your position. I am beginning to doubt that. True, one needs to be able to grapple with the specifics. Nonetheless, the existence of a protocol is key even to these, however primitive, primordial RNA functions. As soon as you say 'storage', retrieval and interpretation are immediately entailed.EugeneS
December 2, 2014
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EugeneS: The crucial problem is the one of signal coding and interpretation. Yes, we understand your position. Restating it still doesn't constitute an argument. RNA World represents a plausible pathway. If you want to argue it doesn't, then you have to be grapple with the specifics. RNA is a molecule which can act as an enzyme and as a storage of genetic memory. This provides a plausible link between a world of dissipative chemistry to the world of genetics.Zachriel
December 2, 2014
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Zachriel, Unfortunately, you have not shown anything. Your words "can act" don't mean anything outside of the already existing information context. Semantics, pragmatics, interpretation, templates and protocols cannot be explained away by proposing hypotheses like the RNA World, the DNA World or any other worlds. The crucial problem is the one of signal coding and interpretation for a pragmatic purpose.EugeneS
December 2, 2014
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EugeneS: Dismissal is no argument either. No, but we provided an argument. This is the discussion so far: Claim: It's impossible. Objection: It's possible. Here's why. Claim: It's not possible (same claim different words). EugeneS: The burden of proof is on the one who claims possibility, not impossibility. The burden of proof is on anyone making a claim. The primary claim on this thread is that of impossibility, which is based on a so-called conservation of a reified notion of "code". EugeneS: All I am asking is demonstrate how code can in practice emerge from physical interactions of matter alone We already pointed out that RNA can act as a genome and as an enzyme, including the capability for autocatalysis.Zachriel
December 2, 2014
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Zachriel, Dismissal is no argument either. When you claim something is possible/plausible you need to be able to demonstrate. The burden of proof is on the one who claims possibility, not impossibility. All I am asking is demonstrate how code can in practice emerge from physical interactions of matter alone, i.e. how can an abstract protocol akin to the rules of chess or the codon table can arise from chance and the necessity of the physical laws. Protein life being too complex, I suggested a much simpler case. You are free to choose yours. I accept that my impossibility claim stems from conviction. It is based on what I believe about the world and what I know (however little). You seem to argue that your view is based purely on physics (tell me if otherwise, and I will concur - that is fair enough, since we all start from our metaphysical stand).EugeneS
December 2, 2014
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niwrad: There is no “relevant distinction” between the two cases (chess and biology). We provided the relevant distinction. There is a possible pathway from the metabolic to the genomic. niwrad: Codes don’t arise from thin air. Rewording a claim doesn’t constitute an argument.Zachriel
December 2, 2014
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Zachriel #65
...have shown you a relevant distinction. There is a plausible pathway from the metabolic universe to the genomic universe.
There is no "relevant distinction" between the two cases. If a "plausible pathway from the metabolic universe to the genomic universe" existed and in the latter system there is a code then such code should exist potentially in the former system injected or frontloaded by an intelligence. Codes don't arise from thin air.niwrad
December 2, 2014
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EugeneS: Intellectual constructs employing selection and chaos theory are incapable of bridging this gap because nature is non-telic. Rewording a claim doesn't constitute an argument.Zachriel
December 2, 2014
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niwrad: Bio-molecules cannot create codes *exactly* as chess pieces per se cannot create the rules of chess. That's your analogy. However, with the former, there is a plausible pathway from the metabolic universe to the genomic universe; while the latter seems to be associated with human culture. niwrad: Do you understand this simple concept? Yes, we understand the concept, but have shown you a relevant distinction.Zachriel
December 2, 2014
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Zachriel, Thank you for the responses. I still disagree with your treatment of my challenge as incoherent. In my opinion, this illustrates the inability of emergence theories (of which you appear to be a proponent) to bridge this gap between abstract protocols and physicality without making serious a priori assumptions regarding the properties of nature. Whether or not the assumptions reflect reality is another matter. This is simply because code is goal-oriented while nature isn't. Intellectual constructs employing selection and chaos theory are incapable of bridging this gap because nature is non-telic. To properly address my challenge you would need to show that all sorts of chess-like games are capable of emerging by themselves of which just a single realization we have in biological life. How this is demonstrable without recourse to metaphysics, I don't know. You might have overlooked my other post #54 (unless you are addressing it now). Physical laws can create a bias towards patterns with certain characteristics but they can never explain the emergence of code unless you bring in assumptions of not strictly physical nature. The only sensible cause of code I am aware of is choice contingency whereby choices are made from among multiple physically indeterminate states. That the states are physically indeterminate precludes the physical laws from being a plausible cause of code. By way of instantiating code into physicality it is possible to load meaning into certain configurations of matter. Meaning is altogether different from the physical determinism of the laws of nature. As soon as you wish to discuss meaning, you need to depart from the level of the physical laws and start reasoning at the level of information processing and decision making.EugeneS
December 2, 2014
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Zachriel #61 EugeneS: "Please explain the rules of chess using only Newtonian mechanics. " Zachriel: "The question is incoherent." You are incoherent. In fact you claim biological codes arise from physical processes. That is *exactly* equivalent to rules of chess arising from mechanics, as EugeneS says. Bio-molecules cannot create codes *exactly* as chess pieces per se cannot create the rules of chess. Do you understand this simple concept?niwrad
December 2, 2014
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The claim above is that the existence of a code that is distinct from “normal” physical processes is not possible to have originated from those physical processes. Our response is that it is not impossible, and the way to show that is to provide a possible or even plausible pathway.
And we are waiting. "Showing" means more than posting your imagination.
The hypothesis, RNA World, bridges the gap between the metabolic world of chemistry
That hypothesis hasn't borne any fruit.
That’s because RNA can act as a genome, a memory of heredity, as well as act as an enzyme, even catalyzing its own reproduction.
That is incorrect. It can catalyze one bond between pre-existing RNA strands and it needs another RNA strand as a template.
We’re pointing out that you don’t have to be able to manipulate planets to be able to propose a valid scientific theory of planetary motion.
As long as it includes an intelligent designer to make it so. ;)Joe
December 2, 2014
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EugeneS: More importantly, could you expound on how the existence of RNA explains the emergence of code. The claim above is that the existence of a code that is distinct from "normal" physical processes is not possible to have originated from those physical processes. Our response is that it is not impossible, and the way to show that is to provide a possible or even plausible pathway. In modern organisms, there is a distinction between the genome and phenome, or more specifically between the genome and the proteome. The genome is the memory of heredity, while the proteome does the work in terms of enzymes, as well as forming structural components. Indeed, the proteome is necessary for the replication of the genome. In other words, the system is irreducibly complex. Neither can persist without the other. The hypothesis, RNA World, bridges the gap between the metabolic world of chemistry, and the world of the genome, of hereditary memory. That's because RNA can act as a genome, a memory of heredity, as well as act as an enzyme, even catalyzing its own reproduction. EugeneS: Code presupposes the existence of an abstract protocol of encoding/interpretation. RNA World precedes the genetic code. Other nucleic acid polymers have also been proposed. There is some indirect evidence of RNA World, such as autocatalysis, but no certainty concerning the actual history at this point. EugeneS: Please explain the rules of chess using only Newtonian mechanics. The question is incoherent. Silver Asiatic: What technical limitations prevent us from creating a living cell? Humans are clumsy. Silver Asiatic: You’re comparing it to Newton’s inability to manipulate the orbits of planets. We're pointing out that you don't have to be able to manipulate planets to be able to propose a valid scientific theory of planetary motion.Zachriel
December 2, 2014
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Silver Asiatic: How do you know what is nature constrained by, and knowing that, what is it? Zachriel: Just because Newton couldn’t manipulate the orbits of planets or launch an artificial satellite doesn’t mean he couldn’t propose a theory of their motions.
I wondered how you knew what nature was constrained by and What technical limitations prevent us from creating a living cell? You're comparing it to Newton's inability to manipulate the orbits of planets. Supposedly, the cell is reducible to chemistry and physics, but why would that process be as distant from us as the process of manipulating the orbits of planets?Silver Asiatic
December 2, 2014
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RB:
If a process has consequences that are visible to selection among replicators, selection can build it, “rate independence” notwithstanding.
Your bald assertion is duly noted and meaningless.Joe
December 2, 2014
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UB:
The rate-dependent enzymatic properties of RNA have nothing whatsoever to do with establishing a rate-independent representation in RNA. As a matter of universal observation, a representation is not established by the material properties of the representation at all. Appealing to the properties of a medium to explain the rise of a representation is a category error.
If a process has consequences that are visible to selection among replicators, selection can build it, "rate independence" notwithstanding. That is why the search is on for simpler replicators that combine functions that you insist must remain separate. Nothing in what you say precludes such replicators in principle. You're entire argument reduces to, "We don't see them now, so they have never existed."Reciprocating Bill
December 2, 2014
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Kairosfocus, Many Thanks. Nice to hear from you.EugeneS
December 2, 2014
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Dr Selensky:
Please explain the rules of chess using only Newtonian mechanics
Well said as both a Russian and a physicist. KFkairosfocus
December 2, 2014
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