Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Dinesh D’Souza speaks out against ID

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In reading Dinesh D’Souza’s WHAT’S SO GREAT ABOUT CHRISTIANITY, I was surprised at how uncritical and historically uninformed is his view of evolution. For instance, he lumped C. S. Lewis with other notable 20th century Christian intellectuals as accepting evolutionary theory, but in fact toward the end of his life, Lewis regretted his earlier support for evolution (go here).

With even less apparent knowledge of his subject, D’Souza is now weighing in against intelligent design:

The Failure of “Intelligent Design”
Posted Mar 31st 2008 9:38AM by Dinesh D’Souza
Filed under: Science, Christianity, Atheism

. . . Today some Christians may be heading down the same path with their embrace of “intelligent design” or ID. This movement is based on the idea that Darwinian evolution is not only flawed but basically fraudulent. ID should not, however, be confused with bible-thumping six-day creationism. It does not regard the earth as 6,000 years old. Its leading advocates are legal scholar Phillip Johnson, biochemist Michael Behe, mathematician David Berlinski, and science journalist Jonathan Wells. Berlinski has a new book out The Devil’s Advocate that makes the remarkable claim that “Darwin’s theory of evolution has little to contribute to the content of the sciences.” Ben Stein’s movie “Expelled” provides horror stories to show that the case for ID as well as critiques of evolution from an ID perspective are routinely excluded or censored in the halls of academe.

ID advocates have sought to convince courts to require that their work be taught alongside Darwinian evolution, yet such efforts have been resoundingly defeated. Why has the ID legal strategy proven to be such a failure, even at the hands of conservative judges? Imagine that a group of advocates challenged Einstein’s theories of general and special relativity. Let’s say that this group, made up of a law professor, a couple of physicists, several journalists, as well as some divinity school graduates, flatly denies Einstein’s proposition that e=mc2.

How would a judge, who is not a physicist, resolve the group’s demand for inclusion in the physics classroom? He would summon a wide cross-section of leading physicists. They would inform him that despite unresolved debates about relativity–for example, its unexplained relationship to quantum theory–Einstein’s theories are supported by a wide body of data. They enjoy near-unanimous support in the physics community worldwide. There is no alternative scientific theory that comes close to explaining the facts at hand. In such a situation any judge would promptly show the dissenters the door and deny their demand for equal time in the classroom. This is precisely the predicament of the ID movement. . . .

MORE

What an incredible comparison. D’Souza here gives no evidence of knowing even the rudiments of the debate over ID — he merely repeats the worst propaganda against ID. I encourage anyone who has personal contact with him to provide him with better information. A point of leverage is that D’Souza presumably wants Christians, many of whom support ID, to buy his book.

Comments
Paul: Re, 128:
What is going on is that science is being defined as that which is objective, that is, which all unbiased observers can agree on. Atheists consider themselves unbiased (in spite of the comments of Lewontin), and therefore, if atheistic scientists can’t agree on it, it isn’t science.
This is sadly telling, for [pseudo?-] consensus in a [possibly censored and manipulated or simply mistakenly question-begging] social context is not objectivity -- as can be seen ever since Plato's parable of the cave. Here is a better definition of objectivity:
objective adjective 1 (of a person or their judgement) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts: historians try to be objective and impartial. Contrasted with subjective. not dependent on the mind for existence; actual: a matter of objective fact. [OED, CD ROM edn 2001]
Inter-subjective "consensus" in a social context -- per the challenges raised by Plato long since -- is precisely the opposite of objective! GEM of TKIkairosfocus
April 5, 2008
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Jerry 99.9% of species by micro-evolution leaves about the right number for created kinds in baraminology. It also falls within Behe's tentative range for the edge of evolution (somewhere between and including orders and genera). I don't see why that should be very contentious here. I try to not get into categorization wars over things that are different from one living thing to another by instead focusing on the things that are common to them all - coding genes and ribosomes are my favorite. Have you read Mike Gene's "Design Matrix" yet? I particularly liked his in depth discussion of the subtle optimizations in the genetic code that argue against the frozen accident hypothesis. The ID/evolution controversy is really at the molecular level now. The so-called appearance of design has been a subject of debate for thousands of years. Illusions tend to vanish on closer examination. We're now getting enormous amounts of detail at the molecular level through high tech lab procedures and tools. At that level of detail the appearance of design is more stark than ever before.DaveScot
April 5, 2008
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Paul re; who designed the designer I think this was definitively answered in an original Star Trek episode but the details escape me. As long as we're asking questions like that I'd like to know who put the material in materialism.DaveScot
April 5, 2008
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Rick The Hawaiian Island chain stretches underwater for thousands of miles. Each island is formed as the continental plate passes over a hotspot in the mantle where a volcano forms. The volcanic cone rises above sea level before the plate moves far enough away from the hotspot so the volcano becomes inactive. As time passes the process of erosion wears the volcanic cone away until it goes back underwater. At the rate the plate moves today it takes, IIRC, about 70 million years for the entire length of the underwater island chain to form. We can drill ice cores in Antarctica where we see distinct layers for each year beginning with the most recent year. There are a million distinct layers. Sedimentation, deposition, and erosion are well understood processes. Everywhere we look we see consistent evidence that the processes have been going on far longer than 6000 years. What evidence is there to cause reasonable doubt they actually have been going on for far longer than 6000 years?DaveScot
April 5, 2008
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Rick I'm only talking about a minimal form of life like a bacteria. Is it your position that when a bacteria divides to form another bacteria that there is something supernatural going on? As far as I can tell it's complex, not completely understood at this time in every detail, but there's no evidence of anything supernatural in the process.DaveScot
April 4, 2008
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@131: As far as I can determine there’s nothing about life on earth that requires supernatural capability. Any intelligent agency with sufficiently advanced but quite material abilities in biochemistry and in causal contact with the earth (limited by distance and light speed) is sufficient.
DaveScot, I generally appreciate your comments and figure you're prepared to back up what you say here. What is the evidence that an intelligent agency with arbitrarily advanced material abilities could create life? Even if we could engineer a working body, could the mind, personhood, and such be reduced to material components? Unless this is definitely the case, how is it possible to conclude that material agency would suffice?RickToews
April 4, 2008
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@128: "until the current scientific consensus is ready to recognize signs of Divine activity at all, there is no way they will be willing to acknowledge evidence of short age, which will require Divine activity."
This has seemed to me obvious, and it's one reason I don't feel compelled to be impressed by the claimed overwhelming scientific evidence for an old earth. I remember reading a line in Shattering the Myths of Darwinism, to the effect that, beyond the obvious fact that the earth is older than mankind, we really can't be certain of its age.
@119: "I keep coming back to the inescapable fact that design detection has nothing to do with the age of the earth or common descent."
It's actually difficult to imagine a legitimate confusion on this point. After all, the concept of design detection seems very basic; and if we were aware of an agency to whom the "apparent design" could be attributed without impinging on philosophical comfort zones, I doubt there'd be a controversy. Design would be recognized as obvious.RickToews
April 4, 2008
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JPCollado, Thank you for your comment. I went over the top in some of my comments because for two years I have been saying something similar and there was not one reaction by anyone here. At the same time there has always been a constant drum beat of anti anything that has to do with Darwin. So maybe I should not use the terminology I do but the mechanisms I am recommending come directly from the Darwinian paradigm. This paradigm includes macro evolution which I do not recommend in addition to micro evolution which I do recommend. It is Darwin's special theory I am invoking so maybe this is what I will call it in the future. There is plenty of empirical data supporting it. Everyone should read Michael Denton's Evolution: A Theory in Crisis which goes over it, My guess is that 99.5% may not be high enough for species that come about through Darwinian micro-evolution processes.jerry
April 4, 2008
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Atom, I agree that if we do not specify the designer, we cannot say much about him/her/it. But the possible nature of the designer can be divided into two broad categories; one where the designer can be explained in materialistic terms (what I referred to above as "space aliens"), and one where the designer cannot be explained in materialistic terms (what i referred to, somewhat imprecisely, as "God). Now if the designer cannot be explained in materialistic terms, whether the actual designer is God, an angel, the demiurge, Thor, Zeus, the Devil, a fairy, or some other supernatural agency, materialism immediately fails as an explanation of the universe, and the attempt to exclude God by an appeal to the success of science is automatically illegitimate. One may exclude God by philosophical arguments in this case, but science would actually support the supernatural. The other category, intelligences that can be explained in materialistic terms, does require an explanation of its origin, as you noted. And if we say that life here couldn't have happened without intelligent guidance, the same would presumably be true of the previous intelligence. If one keeps going back, one is eventually forced to jump to the first category, with all the attendant implications. So if one concedes the necessity of ID, one is eventually logically forced to concede the existence of the supernatural. That is why OOL research has not been abandoned, in spite of its apparent hopelessness.Paul Giem
April 4, 2008
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Paul Giem wrote:
Space aliens do raise the question of "Who designed the designer?", and one can only push that process back some 15 billion years before the designer has to have his/her/its intelligence not dependent on the organization of matter, and must therefore be supernatural.
This is both part right and part wrong. If we cannot study the designer, we cannot really claim that its structure requires design. Design claims are based on empirical data, and absent of that data, we cannot claim a design inference for an unknown entity. So I'd have to side with DaveScot on that point. But if the designer was material, then you are correct, we have to account for its cause, since matter (and the universe itself) came into existence. This becomes a cosmological argument and is indeed empirically sound. Matter did come into existence. Everything that comes into existence requires a cause. Therefore, matter (and any material entities) require a cause.Atom
April 4, 2008
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jerry: "Anyone who thinks I am a Darwinist is not reading what I write. There is nothing I ever wrote that is consistent with Darwinism or inconsistent with ID." I hear you and I commend you for the enlightment you've been providing thus far. But I agree with what ericB @ 116 said about definitions and perceptions and I think it applies here. Your statement @ post #1, viz - "the Darwinian paradigm explains most of the life on the planet" - was probably a little bit too strong or overbearing as it seems to ascribe powers to micro-evolution (and this is what we've been talking about, no?) that IDists have consistently said are not there.JPCollado
April 4, 2008
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Paul My responses to who designed the designer is "I don't have any direct or indirect evidence to form an opinion on that" and if it's a philosophical naturalist I ask if they know "who put the material in materialism". Maybe intelligence came before material. Naturalism can't answer that as we don't where or how the observable universe originated and anything outside it is outside nature. All we can reasonably infer about the designer of life on earth is whatever is responsible had means and opportunity. As far as I can determine there's nothing about life on earth that requires supernatural capability. Any intelligent agency with sufficiently advanced but quite material abilities in biochemistry and in causal contact with the earth (limited by distance and light speed) is sufficient. No more can be reasonably inferred without more data.DaveScot
April 4, 2008
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Patrick, I don't have any clue as to how the various gene pools were created or developed/evolved/appeared. To me, like a lot of biological questions, it is a mystery. So I do not think it necessarily came at the OOL but I guess it could have. Why don't you post your ideas and we can comment.jerry
April 4, 2008
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Paul Giem, thanks for giving me an opportunity to clarify. I don't really have a problem with YEC's in the same way that Jerry does, because I think that it is possible, though not probable, that "uniformatariasm" could be wrong. I was trying to set up two bloggers' perceptions about the sources of ID's biggest problems. I think Jerry attributes it do "Darwin deniers." I don't. I attribute it to TE's in the academy. It's just two opinions from two people. who knows where are greatest vulnerability lies?StephenB
April 4, 2008
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DaveScot, (119) You hit the nail squarely on the head. That was part of what I was trying to say in (113). The point can be pushed further. Guillermo Gonzalez doesn't even challenge evolution at all and still is not accepted. What is going on is that science is being defined as that which is objective, that is, which all unbiased observers can agree on. Atheists consider themselves unbiased (in spite of the comments of Lewontin), and therefore, if atheistic scientists can't agree on it, it isn't science. Since the fundamental point of ID is that certain aspects of the universe exhibit design, and therefore require a designer, and human designers cannot account for the design, then we are talking about space aliens or God. Space aliens do raise the question of "Who designed the designer?", and one can only push that process back some 15 billion years before the designer has to have his/her/its intelligence not dependent on the organization of matter, and must therefore be supernatural. The Darwinists know that this puts the Divine foot in the door, as Lewontin would put it, and it means that they are wrong. This means that they cannot afford to recognize ID, and so it is not recognized by "objective scientists", and so it must be "not science". If it claims to be science, it must be pseudoscience. We cannot win against such logic, unless we challenge the premise that atheistic scientists are unbiased, and can exercise a veto over what gets included in science. That is why Expelled is so important. If atheism cannot delegitimize ID before the discussion begins, ID can win hands down. That, jerry, and not the confusion in our camp, is the real problem. Expelled is also important because Dawkins is on record (reportedly) as saying that space aliens are OK as long as they are not God. That makes it even clearer that the real problem is not a designer; it is a Divine Designer. We can make all the concessions we want, and the Darwinists will want more and more until we we either adopt atheism, or adopt a theism that makes no testable claims, namely, theistic evolution. I agree with StephenB (123 and elsewhere) that TE is fundamentally incoherent, and that its adherents are too strongly tempted to throw ID to the wolves in the hope that their theism will be permitted by their atheist rulers. There is a parallel with the Vichy government here. (Finally, jerry and StephenB, (127) you might be surprised about those supposed elements of irrationality. YEC is theologically more easily understood than multiple episodes of Divine interference, can take the Biblical evidence more straightforwardly, and has some surprising support from scientific evidence, although of course not from the current scientific consensus. But until the current scientific consensus is ready to recognize signs of Divine activity at all, there is no way they will be willing to acknowledge evidence of short age, which will require Divine activity. YEC can thus be expected to have "problems with science", if science is defined as the current scientific consensus. That does not make it wrong.)Paul Giem
April 4, 2008
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-----Jerry: "My real objective is the average person outside this forum but I believe in order to reach them you cannot come from a stance that has problems with science." Yes. I understand. I just meant that, insofar as our movement has elements of irrationality, those on the outside can misapprehend what we are all about. I understand you to be rightly concerned about this internal vulnerability for the sake of the outside audience.StephenB
April 4, 2008
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jstanley01: Yes, I concur with your entire exposition, which was, by the way, well stated. I take your point over the one exception. Some of the relevant passages are theological and some are empirical. I submit that the passage from Romans 1:20 is a clear indication that we need not resort to faith or theology to draw inferences to design. Based on that point alone, the theistic evolutionists, in my judgment, have no case. It’s either God’s design or Darwin’s illusion; they can’t have it both ways. You are right, of course. There are many things that we simply cannot learn about nature and there is no reason to overstate the case for what rationality can do. Neither science, nor philosophy, for that matter, can teach us anything about God’s “attributes.” We can, in my judgment, use science and philosophy to affirm, beyond a reasonable doubt, that God “exists.” I also agree with you that we cannot deduce the answer to the question, “why creation.” I will say this, though. Nature does leave clues that there IS a “why” to be found. Indeed, I submit to you that Romans 1:20 is saying something like this: From our empirical observations we can infer/conclude that the world was apparently designed for a reason. Given that fact, we are morally obliged to follow up on that clue and find out what that reason is. Does that seem fair?StephenB
April 4, 2008
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StephenB, "For Jerry, the primary challenge is confronting internal stupidity; " My real objective is the average person outside this forum but I believe in order to reach them you cannot come from a stance that has problems with science. The thread is about Dinesh D'Souza and his ignorance. I hate to try and counteract that while we don't have an entirely consistent stance.jerry
April 4, 2008
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Dave, You ask two questions. Extinction - I am not a micro biologist nor in any way knowledgeable on extinction. I base my arguments on human behavior and logic. There is no alarm over genome deterioration of any species amongst the biological community. If there was, we would be hearing alarm bells like we hear with global warming. I am sure there are some indications somewhere that certain species are failing for reasons other than human intervention. But I have not heard of any studies in the fore front of biology. It would be major news and a cause for alarm and more important a money machine for research grants. So that is what I mean by human behavior. I look around me and see very complex ecologies that have gone through a lot of disturbance by human intervention and see nearly every species thriving. If they were deteriorating, I would expect some evidence to show up confirming Sanford's predictions. That is the logic. As to how to research this, we have 4500 genomes and counting. Somewhere in these genomes we should be able to see the effects of genetic entropy if it exists. It would make a great research project though I am not sure that ID would want to be associated with it. How to answer the Darwinists - There was a post about 2 years ago about a heckler who challenged an ID speaker. The heckler said that ID didn't do any research and look at Darwin and all the great work he did. The answer was to point to the complexity of the cell. I thought that there should be a much better answer. The complexity of the cell is certainly an example of design but it is one that is hard for the average college student to comprehend because the conventional wisdom in academia is that it is reachable by Darwinian processes. I thought about this for a long while and came to the conclusion that a devastating answer would be to say that ID contains what Darwin found but not everything. This approach is to not denigrate Darwin but recognize his contributions but bring him down to size. If instead of saying look at the cell, the answer had been "Darwin did some incredible work in collecting and analyzing the flora and fauna of South America, Pacific islands and other geographical areas. And he came to an important conclusion, that the species of the world are not immutable but contain some plasticity and can morph into different forms. But he made one very crucial mistake. He extrapolated the change of phenotype such that he believed that every form of life was possible through naturalistic processes. The data did not support this. What the data did support is that a phenotype such as the finch can morph into slightly different types of finches, a iguana can adapt to the water, a crab can adapt to a particular island environment etc. Birds have been around for around 100 million years and all we have are birds of various shapes and sizes. This is a well known phenomena called micro evolution. What Darwin was observing was the gene pool of a population creating slightly different versions of the original gene pool. But these changes have a negative effect. They actual make the species more susceptible to extinction because they narrow gene pool. What Darwin saw and what Darwin concluded were in opposite directions. Darwin witnessed the evolution of species downward into more restricted gene pools but made grandiose conclusions upward that the data actually disproves. Darwin's own work and others with artificial selection provided some remarkable changes in pigeons but in the end they were all still pigeons and reach a point where no new changes could happen. Similar results have been shown with other species. There is a limit to change and the process actually narrows what each new breed can do, not expand it. And that is the crucial observation. Artificial selection narrows the gene pool. " A better written reply than what I have outlined would be more effective. But it would have won the audience of college students. It is not the biology professors who are the target but the general population. So I don't care what Richard Lewontin thinks, it is the average student that should be the target. If after a more thought out reply than mine is developed, I bet the biology professors might have a problem in class with questions that say what Darwin saw was downward evolution or devolution and not any creating of novelty. They do not have an answer to it that is credible. So we make Darwin part of ID but bring him down to size because of the fundamental mistake he made in extrapolating the wrong way. And by the way always include Lewontin's quote. After reading about Darwin and his constant struggle with the Origin, I believe he would have taken a different tack if the argument we have to day was presented to him. That is just my opinion but it is based on reading a little about him.jerry
April 4, 2008
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-----Dave Scot: “I tried making the argument that if only ID acknowledged/accepted common descent (not the mechanism of variation but just the age of the earth and common ancestry) that ID wouldn’t be so demonized. Mike Behe replied directly to me that in his experience that is not the case. Behe, if the not the most recognizable name in ID, is in the top three. He accepts evidence for common descent and an old earth at face value. Yet he’s still vilified by the chance worshippers. Why? Because ANY support for ID at any level is roundly rejected." One thing that ignites our passions is our individual perceptions about who is doing most damage the ID movement. To put it in the form of a question: What us our greatest vulnerability? For Jerry, the primary challenge is confronting internal stupidity; for me, the biggest challenge is confronting external treachery. He bristles over whacked out fundamentalists who use religion to make us look stupid; I fume over disingenuous theistic evolutions, who misrepresent us in the name of God. As a Catholic, I have an especially hard time with theologians and scientists, who twist Catholic theology like a pretzel to mischaracterize ID. I guess we all have our hot buttons, but to me those guys are our biggest problem.StephenB
April 4, 2008
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Jerry,
Many of these genomes are available and my proposition is that the multitude of species are really quite similar and no complexity will separate nearly all of them. Which leads to my claim that 99.5% (to be over the top with a large number) of the species are only different because of basic micro evolutionary processes. This claim has not been well received on UD. I was told how stupid I was on another thread by some others and on this thread others have irrationally attacked my claims. Witness the insistence of turning the argument into one of macro evolution.
I actually raised what may be the same proposition myself a bit ago. If I my restate your proposition, you're claiming an ID-compatible scenario where instead of explicit front-loading via an unfolding plan the holistic biological system was "designed to evolve" at OOL and that micro-evolutionary events are enough to produce the variety of life we see today. I don't avidly support that position myself, mainly because the evidence seems to oppose it, but I do think it worth discussing since it seems to be an open question: Altenberg Sixteen
In regards to the modern synthesis I think that ID successfully refutes it. But even if ID is rejected at the outset or is not included in considering the evidence it should now be obvious that the modern synthesis is an inadequate model of biological reality. So now the real question is whether ID holds true in regards to the “evolving holistic synthesis”. I don’t think anyone could say for certain at this point; it’s too early. It’s a different question with a potentially different answer. ... I was trying to say was that BOTH ID and the “evolving holistic synthesis” could turn out to be true. (I’m about to get in trouble with everyone… ;) ) In order to function, the “evolving holistic synthesis” requires OOL, which is its own separate question. Dembski’s recent work shows that in order to find the targets in search space active information is required. Besides “directed front-loading” (what I’m calling Behe’s and Mike Gene’s hypothesis in order to differentiate it from other variants) there is the potential that ID only holds true in regards to the OOL. The front-loaded active information is the design of the system (modular components, plasticity in the language conventions, etc), which allows the “evolving holistic synthesis” to function without there being a directly embedded plan. Thoughts? I’ve actually been mulling over this concept for a while but never got around to posting it. Now here is the real question: would the majority of Darwinists find such a hypothetical scenario acceptable? As in, is it even possible to have a middle ground where both ID and Darwinism* hold true? Can’t we just all get along? Even though I’m suggesting this idea I’m not convinced of it myself. I just think it a good starting point where both sides could potentially stop the arguing, the hating, and the career-busting and work toward finding the truth.
I was hoping it may be possible to cultivate a "middle ground" as a starting point for discussion. But Dave in #119 makes the good point that this may be impossible with some people. Although this particular version of "front-loading" at least allows Darwinists to keep their precious ideas mostly intact, so there may be some appeal. I've also been meaning to create a front page article about this topic, but have never gotten around to it.Patrick
April 4, 2008
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StephenB @ 117 "By the way, your WWII comment qualifies as the metaphor of the month." No applause, just throw money :)jstanley01
April 4, 2008
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StephenB @ 102 Pt. 2 "You are confusing what ID teaches with what the Bible teaches." Actually, what I'm attempting to do -- however ineptly -- is rationalize what ID has scientifically discovered about design in the universe (to the materialists' vociferous chagrin) with what I know to be true biblically. Regarding the scriptures you cite, I agree with your exegesis on all but Job 19:26. In that verse, the words "in my flesh" (KJV) are actually a common idiom for "while I'm alive." Meanwhile "I will see God" has to be a synecdoche (as it would have to be in your exposition too) describing "things that can only originate with God." Which brings me to the epistemological point that I'm trying to make (and I'm far from being the first along these lines; if I'm not mistaken in my Church history, such observations go back at least as far as Augustine). The Bible shows two sources of knowledge: 1) what could be called "natural knowledge" and, 2) what could be called "revelation knowledge"; the source of the first being the five senses, the source of the second being the Spirit of God. Scientific knowledge, by definition, represents natural knowledge. Knowledge which is gathered via the five senses, and which is processed, categorized, debated and established via the rational faculties of the human mind. Meanwhile the vast majority of knowledge about God (since He is Spirit [John 4:24] and hence cannot be seen, heard, tasted, touched or felt) has to come by revelation from God to His spirit in man (a term inclusive of women, of course). Again, the watch analogy is apt. The watch itself does show some things about the watchmaker. That he or she has a particular conception of the regularity of time; is familiar with mathematical ratios involved in making gears; has skills in metallurgy and other materials; etc. But looking only at the watch, what are arguably the most important facts about the watchmaker, aside from his or her existence, remain hidden. Is the person, in fact, a he or a she? Young or old? Theist, atheist or agnostic? Republican or Democrat? Married or single? A parent or childless? Bohemian or strait-laced? Drive a Ford or a Chevy? Now if the watch happens to be stamped "Made in China," it's rational to construe that the watchmaker may be Chinese. But with that kind of evidence, we're drifting into a different category of knowledge. The other verses you cited represent a pretty good canvas of what the scriptures say can be deduced about the Creator from the artifact of creation. Romans 1:20 actually specifies what the "invisible attributes" of God consist of, which creation displays, namely His "eternal power and Godhead" (KJV) -- in other words, that such an awesome design self-evidently has to have one whale of a Designer behind it. The assertion in Psalm 139:14 that, "I am awesomely and wonderfully made," is one no biologist would dispute. And while a lot of astronomers and physicists might not agree with the "God" part in Psalm 19:2, which says that "The heavens declare God's glory, the firmament tells of His handiwork," I doubt they would dispute that the deeper they look the more "glorious" what they discover appears. Especially when, more than likely, that "glory" is in large measure what attracted them to their professions in the first place. But there's a whole lot that creation alone does not show. Most basically, the answer to the question "why creation?" And most importantly, the truth behind "the only name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12) -- the One who is the red thread who binds the scriptures together from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21. This is knowledge which cannot be deduced from the artifact, it has to be received or rejected according to what the Bible claims itself to be: revelation from God to mankind. (Check Galatians 1:11-12, "But I guarantee you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.") Take it or leave it. DaveScot's assertion @ 70 that, "As far as I can determine there is a strong scientific case to be made that an intelligent agency in some form was a inescapable causal factor of the appearance and evolution of life on our planet," is wholly appropriate for ID as a scientific enterprise. Cross very far outside of those bounds, and due to a category error, we're no longer practicing science. With all the wind, that's the whole point I wanted to make.jstanley01
April 4, 2008
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Jerry I tried making the argument that if only ID acknowledged/accepted common descent (not the mechanism of variation but just the age of the earth and common ancestry) that ID wouldn't be so demonized. Mike Behe replied directly to me that in his experience that is not the case. Behe, if the not the most recognizable name in ID, is in the top three. He accepts evidence for common descent and an old earth at face value. Yet he's still vilified by the chance worshippers. Why? Because ANY support for ID at any level is roundly rejected. Richard Lewontin explained it quite well:
"We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door."
Plus I keep coming back to the inescapable fact that design detection has nothing to do with the age of the earth or common descent. The validity of plate tectonics, for example, didn't require geologists to make a declaration of support for common descent. To do so would be an obvious fallacy. These are red herring fallacies - guilt by association, appeal to motive, poisoning the well, straw man, and others. DaveScot
April 4, 2008
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jerry How would we be able to witness the potential destruction of a species at the genome level? What would we look for? As for modern extinctions, yes most of them (not all however) can be linked to human causes. But that doesn't change anything. Human activities fall under both environmental insult and competition categories. We just happen to be quite good at changing environements and competition. What you also need to consider is why some species became extinct rather quickly due to human activities and why others weren't phased by it at all. The passenger pigeon went the way of the dodo but other pigeons still thrive in our midst. Many species of rodents have gone extinct yet others still thrive in our midst.DaveScot
April 4, 2008
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Hi jstanley01: It appears that I did not jump to conclusions---I pole vaulted! By the way, your WWII comment qualifies as the metaphor of the month.StephenB
April 4, 2008
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jerry (109): "If micro evolution can be used to explain most of the life on the planet, why so much mockery of what I said. ... And little defense of what I said by anyone till you provided yours." While I don't make any defense for mockery, I think some portion of the difficulty comes down to a problem with communication. I believe you have provided the key clues in your own posts. jerry (109): "All this is not my invention but Darwin’s himself and is called his special theory. But Darwin got full of himself and extrapolated to the general theory that had no support and said we all descended from single celled organisms. His special theory is well supported but is general theory is baseless." jerry (111): "Anyone who thinks I am a Darwinist is not reading what I write. There is nothing I ever wrote that is consistent with Darwinism or inconsistent with ID. So I find it amusing to be lectured on things I already agree with. I consider Darwinism and the Darwinian paradigm as separate concepts. The latter is a combination of various naturalistic mechanisms for change in biological life and the former is a philosophy. The naturalistic mechanisms for change are limited but not completely impotent as some would have you believe." You are making some very, very subtle distinctions in your use of terms such as Darwinist, Darwinism, and Darwinian paradigm. These subtle distinctions are not shared by your audience. This predictably results in confusion and misunderstanding, leading to frustration, strong emotions, rash words, etc. etc. With my post, I had the benefit of responding after you had made it very clear you were specifically talking about microevolution, not macroevolution. So, in my paraphrase, I could substitute "microevolution" where you had actually written "Darwinian paradigm". Now, you may know in your own mind that you mean something quite distinct from Darwinism, but the audience will not hear that. They will hear you making your claims about Darwinism, i.e. the general theory which you acknowledge as baseless. By your own acknowledgement, even Darwin himself held both a reasonable and an unreasonable position. You may have your view about which of these justifiably deserves to be considered the "Darwinian paradigm". But don't lose sight of the goal of clear communication. I'm afraid that using words that your audience understands differently will only create trouble. If you say "Darwinian paradigm" they will hear "Darwinist" and "Darwinism", i.e. the general theory. Instead, translate what you have to say into terms your audience will not stumble over. Then it will become apparent that there is wide recognition that Darwinian mechanisms are real and that they do have a limited effect -- just not the grandiose effect of the general theory. To be considerate and fair to others, just as we would want from others, I don't believe anyone "would have you believe" that Darwinian mechanisms are "completely impotent". Likewise, trying to measure numerically how much is explained by microevolution is itself an ambiguous exercise open to misunderstanding, and could be interpreted different ways, as Paul Giem (113) pointed out. Clearer communication can avoid many unnecessary troubles.ericB
April 4, 2008
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Paul Giem (113): "More than that, the original beetle may have had the genetic information for both types of beetles, and there may not be any new information in the various species of beetles at all. The only function of RV&NS may be to sort through pre-existing information (this would be a kind of front-loading)." In ARN's Literature Survey, Origins & Design 20:1, Issue 38, please take a look at the section on The Limits of Variation. It summarizes the conclusions made by Japanese biologist Kazuo Kawano based on his study of beetles. Kawano observes that there is a reduction in plasticity over time. "The facts and logic indicate that the morphological evolution of multicellular animals has not been a spreading process but a process of diminishing dynamics where the magnitude of evolutionary effects on morphology decreased with time. Evolution is not a process of micro variations accumulating to macro effects but of macro effects preceding micro variations (p. 50)." Similar to some of jerry's comments, "Kawano concludes that Neodarwinism is not completely wrong, “but its applicability does not extend to evolution above the species level” (p. 52)." Kawano is not advocating front loaded design, but what he sees and describes seems to be quite consistent with what one would expect to see from a front loaded design.ericB
April 4, 2008
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StephenB @ 102 Pt. 1 The dogmatic comment (@ 96) was meant as a general observation. I didn't have you in mind at all. Reading your posts on this thread in detail, you're anything but. Your observation of the TEs as irrational is spot-on. They're like the police in Vichy France during WW II. Their arm patch may display the tricolor, but the laws they enforce belong to "The Hun."jstanley01
April 4, 2008
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Jerry, I think you have a point. The 300,000 or so species of beetles might very well have come from an original, say, 100 different kinds of beetles, by random variations and natural selection. The exact number of original kinds would make a good research project for an ID proponent trying to find the edge of evolution, as Behe would call it. Assuming that what one is to explain is each species as we know it, the explanation of species of beetles would be, given the above numbers, over 99.96% due to Darwinian evolution (random variations and natural selection. You have another half point. It is quite common for those who consider ID to somehow get the notion that ID assumes that all events are specifically planned and immediately executed by the intelligent designer (assumed to be God), who has no use for randomness in His design (in contrast to human designers, who sometimes deliberately spray a ceiling with "popcorn" to create a random effect!). It is important that we deny that caricature of intelligent design. But IMHO that only gets a half a point, as many ID advocates have been very clear that randomness does play a role in biology. The most obvious example is Behe, who titled his latest book The Edge of Evolution, implying in the title, and stating in the book, that some changes are within reach of random variations and natural selection, and some changes are not (and some are hard to tell). It will be interesting to take a poll, but I strongly suspect that no-one on this blog thread believes that all speciation is beyond the edge of RV&NS. Creationists before ID was a formal discipline believed the same way, going back at least to the later Linnaeus. And yet, starting with Darwin, DE's have (deliberately?) assumed that creationists, then ID advocates, argue for the fixity of the species. Thus the title of Darwin's The Origin of Species, as if somehow if Darwin could show that some species had a common ancestor and originated by naturalistic processes, that creationist theory (pure ID theory didn't exist then) would collapse. Darwin's followers have continued to use that argument, in spite of the fact that at least some of them have to know that it is false, and therefore their use of it is dishonest spin. So while I agree with you that we should continue to make the point, and make it more plain, the fault does not entirely rest on the ID community. Some Darwinists are deliberately perpetuating the false argument, and ID advocates have not simply fallen down on the job. Although we might do better, we will not be able to completely correct the record until those Darwinists are discredited, which is not totally within our power. However, there is another question that others have raised, and that is, is most of the information in the nuclei of higher organisms obtained by RV&NS, or by ID? It is entirely possible that the vast majority of the genome of, to take our example, beetles, is in fact intelligently designed, and a relatively small proportion of that information, say 2%, or even less, is actually the product of RV&NS, even if speciation is entirely driven by RV&NS. It may take very little change in the genome to go from a dung beetle to a rhinoceros beetle. More than that, the original beetle may have had the genetic information for both types of beetles, and there may not be any new information in the various species of beetles at all. The only function of RV&NS may be to sort through pre-existing information (this would be a kind of front-loading). So it may depend on how you define the endpoint whether RV&NS is responsible for 99.96%, or 0.0001%, of the life around us. The discussion may be clearer if we are clear on our definitions and concepts, and try to understand the other person's definitions and concepts, and try to have them contact each other as well as possible.Paul Giem
April 4, 2008
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