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Do split-brain cases disprove the existence of an immaterial soul? (Part One)

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A battle royal over split-brain patients has been raging on a post at Uncommon Descent for the past four weeks. I was unaware of this vigorous debate until a couple of days ago, as I’ve been working on several posts of my own, which will (hopefully) be up soon. However, after having viewed the comments on the split brain thread, I’ve decided to make my own contribution to the debate, as someone who has a long-standing interest in the mind-body problem.

How it all started

Over at The Skeptical Zone, KeithS threw down the gauntlet in a post titled, Split-brain patients and the dire implications for the soul (June 22, 2013). I’ll quote a brief excerpt here:

There is a procedure, the corpus callosotomy, that disconnects the two hemispheres so that epileptic seizures cannot spread from one to the other. The hemispheres are only disconnected; neither is removed. This operation contains the seizures, dramatically improving the patient’s quality of life, but it also severs the path through which the hemispheres normally communicate. The results are fascinating, and they’re not very friendly to the dualist position:

a. In experiments with split-brain patients, it’s possible to pass information to one hemisphere but not the other. The left hemisphere literally doesn’t know what the right hemisphere knows, and vice-versa.

If there were a single, immaterial mind, it would know what both hemispheres know. Clearly, this doesn’t happen…

b. The left hemisphere controls the right half of the body, and vice-versa. When the connection between the two is cut, this results in bizarre behaviors indicating the presence of two “wills” in the same skull.

One patient was seen to pick up a cigarette with her right hand and place it in her mouth. Her left hand plucked it out and threw it away before the right hand could light it.

In another case, a man attacked his wife with one arm while defending her with the other.

If a single immaterial mind were running the show, this would not happen. How do you explain this within the dualist framework?

KeithS then drew the attention of Uncommon Descent readers to his post in a comment on Denyse O’Leary’s post, Why materialist neuroscience must necessarily remain a pseudo-discipline (June 24, 2013). In a subsequent comment, KeithS then set forth his assumptions as follows (I’ve amended the numbering that was in the original post):

Assume that:

1. There is an immaterial soul.
2. The immaterial soul is the seat of knowledge.
3. The immaterial soul is the seat of the will.
4. The immaterial soul initiates voluntary actions.
5. The immaterial soul receives information from both hemispheres.
6. The immaterial soul sends commands to both hemispheres.

If one makes all of these assumptions, then it id indeed true that dualism is in trouble. However, no dualist that I know makes all of these assumptions.

There are many kinds of dualism

Before I go on, however, I’d like to correct a common error. Many people seem to be under the impression that there are two and only two kinds of dualism: first, the substance dualism widely attributed by Descartes, who (according to many scholars) viewed mind and body as two distinct things that interact with one another; and second, the property dualism espoused by certain modern philosophers (e.g. Thomas Nagel and Jaegwon Kim), who say that the human brain has both physical properties (e.g. its weight and color) and non-physical properties (e.g. the sensations experienced by the owner of the brain in question, as well as his/her beliefs and desires), and that although the brain’s non-physical properties are emergent phenomena that are incapable of being explained in purely physical terms, they nonetheless supervene upon these physical properties, which means that they have no genuine independence of their own. Professor William Dembski has done an excellent job of exposing the inadequacies of property dualism from a theistic standpoint in his two essays, Converting matter into mind and Conflating matter and mind, so I shall say nothing more about this kind of dualism here.

There are, however, two intermediate versions of dualism between substance and property dualism, which KeithS appears to be unaware of. I’ll call them Version A and Version B for now. According to both versions, mind and body (or rather, soul and body) are not two things; rather, the human person is an essential unity. On both versions, the soul of an organism – be it a microbe, plant, fungus or animal – is simply its underlying principle of unity or form, by virtue of which it is (a) one organism, and (b) an organism of a particular kind. The human soul can thus be defined as the form of the human body – i.e. that by virtue of which my body is a human body, and not the body of another animal (say, a chimpanzee). The attribute which distinguishes the human soul from other animal souls is its ability to reason. However, the human soul’s ability to reason does not distinguish us from the animals; rather, it distinguishes us as animals. To be a human being is simply to be a rational kind of animal.

According to bother Version A and Version B, human beings are essentially animals, who are nonetheless capable of performing two distinct kinds of acts, or operations: rational acts such as reasoning, understanding, making free choices, and being charitable towards other people, which are in some way immaterial; and material acts such as feeding, growing, sensing, imagining, remembering, feeling, and moving. Because of the essential unity of the human person, even these material acts are often performed in a distinctively rational manner, which is why there is a distinctively human way of eating, for instance, that marks us out from all the other animals: we insist on observing certain customs (table manners) when we eat, we divide our meals into sequential stages (courses) and we also plan our meals in advance.

It should be noted that memory is viewed as a bodily capacity on both versions of dualism being discussed here. Neither account envisages us as having an “invisible information bank” in an immaterial soul, where we keep our memories. Memories, on both accounts, are stored in the brain.

On both of these versions of dualism, bodily acts are also acts of the soul, as the soul is essentially the form of the body, and not some detached entity piloting the body, as a demon might do if it were possessing someone. Thus when I eat an apple, it is I who decides to eat the apple, and it is I who reaches out, puts it in my mouth, chews it and swallows it. These actions are all attributable to one person.

Where the two versions of dualism differ is on the question of whether the soul can be legitimately said to interact with the body. On Version A it can, and on version B it can’t.

According to Version A dualism, whenever we perform voluntary actions, our immaterial mental acts of thinking and choosing actually make our bodies move – presumably by acting on some part of the brain, which in turn triggers the nerve signals that move our limbs. Thus our bodily acts are controlled by our immaterial thoughts and choices. Since this version of dualism claims that persons control their bodies by performing certain immaterial operations, I’ll call it thought control dualism. It is the version of dualism which I espouse.

Version B dualism, like Version A, affirms that intellectual acts of understanding cannot be equated with any kind of bodily acts or processes. However, Version B differs from Version A, in that it denies that my acts of will make my body move, in voluntary actions. My acts of will explain why my body moves, when I want to do something: that is, they account for its finality. And of course, they give my act of moving its distinctively human character, or form. But these acts are not an efficient cause of the body’s voluntary movements: they don’t make the body move. As Professor Edward Feser, who is a leading exponent of Version B, puts it:

The soul doesn’t “interact” with the body considered as an independently existing object, but rather constitutes the matter of the human body as a human body in the first place, as its formal (as opposed to efficient) cause… As I move my fingers across the keyboard, then, … the neuromuscular processes are by themselves only the material-cum-efficient causal aspect of a single event of which my thoughts and intentions are the formal-cum-final causal aspect. (Italics mine – VJT.)

More recently, Professor Feser has stated that when I perform a voluntary action, my decision and the neural activity that makes my limbs move are not “two competing candidates for efficient cause,” but are instead “two aspects of a single efficient cause, just as the meaning of a sentence and its physical realization are two aspects of one thing.” However, Feser also insists that “intellectual operations do not involve a bodily organ,” which “entails that that which carries out these operations, the human soul, must ‘subsist’ apart from the body; it isn’t a mere accident or attribute of the body.”

Since Feser acknowledges the immateriality of the intellect, but characterizes its role in human action in formal-cum-final causal terns rather than efficient causal terms, I propose to refer to his version of dualism as formal-final dualism.

It should be noted that while the two versions of dualism being compared here can both be described as hylemorphic, they are based on slightly different conceptions of an organism’s form. According to Professor Feser’s formal-final dualism, form follows function: an organism’s form is determined by its built-in goals or ends, and given the ends, just as a knife’s form is determined by its function of cutting (Aquinas: A Beginner’s Guide, Oneworld Publications, Oxford, 2009, pp. 18-19). But according to the thought control dualism which I espouse, a thing’s form is not a simple consequence of its having certain specific ends. There is more to form than finality. The body of an organism also exhibits a nested hierarchy of control (organism: organ systems: organs: tissues: cells: organelles), and an organism’s form cannot be adequately characterized without specifying this hierarchy.

I personally believe that my thought control dualism is closer in spirit to the thinking of Aquinas and the later Scholastic philosophers than the formal-final dualism advocated by Professor Feser; however, Feser strongly disagrees with me on this point, so I’ll say no more about that in this post.

Finally, I should say a little about substance dualism. Perhaps the most sophisticated modern defense of this view can be found in The Self and Its Brain, by Karl Popper and John C. Eccles (Springer, 1977, hardback; Routledge, 1984, paperback). Actually, Popper and Eccles are trialists: in addition to a World 1 of physical objects and a World 2 of states of consciousness, they also posit a World 3 of culture, knowledge and language, created by human beings. All three worlds interact. However, Eccles’ account of the mind is a dualistic one. According to Eccles, the self-conscious mind interacts with both hemispheres of the brain, but principally with the dominant hemisphere of the brain (the left hemisphere, in most people), which it controls. The minor hemisphere (usually the right hemisphere), is highly skilled in certain ways, and capable of some degree of insight and intelligence, but not (generally speaking) proper language: it can recognize no more than a few words at a time.

How dualists would respond to KeithS’s assumptions

We can now address the assumptions made by KeithS in his discussion of split-brain patients, and compare what substance dualism, thought control dualism and formal-final dualism have to say about them.

1. There is an immaterial soul.

This is true on all three versions of dualism being considered here, although they would explain the soul’s immateriality differently. Only according to substance dualism is the immaterial soul viewed as something separate from the body. On the other two versions, the soul is capable of performing immaterial acts of thinking in addition to the essentially embodied acts that it performs.

2. The immaterial soul is the seat of knowledge.

A substance dualist would say yes. A thought control dualist and a formal-final dualist would say that the immaterial soul is the seat of understanding, and that the soul knows, but they would also add that knowledge is not stored “offline” in some immaterial data bank. Because the human person is an essential unity, it is hardly surprising that under normal conditions I am able to access the memories stored in my brain. A thought control dualist would add, however, that the reason why I am able to access these memories “at will” is that God has made me in such a way that my brain is responsive to my acts of will, when it is functioning normally. A formal-final dualist would say that there literally is no “how” involved when I access these memories; I “just do,” because they are my memories, and that’s all we need to say.

3. The immaterial soul is the seat of the will.

A substance dualist such as Eccles would have no trouble with this statement: he would say that intentions belong to the inner sense in his “World 2.”

A thought control dualist would say that my acts of will are immaterial acts which can be ascribed to my soul but not my body, and that typically, whenever I decide to do something, my acts of will move a certain area in my brain, which initiates certain nerve signals that cause my limbs to move. (I’ve previously explained how this happens without violating the laws of physics in my posts, Is free will dead? and How is libertarian free will possible?)

A formal-final dualist, on the other hand, would say that acts of will are one and the same as the neuronal movements which cause my limbs to move, but viewed under an immaterial, formal-cum-finalistic aspect. That is, acts of will are not disembodied acts which make the brain or any other part of the body move.

4. The immaterial soul initiates voluntary actions.

See above. A substance dualist and a thought control dualist would say that the soul executes non-bodily acts of will, which make certain neurons in the brain move in a particular way, which in turn causes voluntary body movements. A formal-final dualist would say that voluntary bodily movements are simply those which we perform willingly.

5. The immaterial soul receives information from both hemispheres.
6. The immaterial soul sends commands to both hemispheres.

According to Eccles, who is a substance dualist, the soul communicates with the body directly, mainly (and after a brain bisection, exclusively) via the dominant left hemisphere.

A thought control dualist would also maintain that the soul receives (or more properly, abstracts) information from the brain, and that it sends commands to the brain. Once again, because there is a multi-level hierarchy of control when it comes to motor movements, a thought control dualist would have no reason to regard both hemispheres of the brain as equally privileged, in their relation of the soul’s disembodied executive commands.

A formal-final dualist, on the other hand, would say that the whole enterprise of viewing the soul as communicating with the hemispheres of the brain is a fundamentally wrong-headed one. Rather, we should say that acts of the will are simply those acts which cause limb movements, viewed under their formal-cum-finalistic aspect.

So what happens after a brain bisection? Stay tuned for the next exciting episode! In the meantime, here’s some reading to whet readers’ appetites: Eccles (The Human Psyche 1977-1979. The Gifford Lectures, Lecture 1: Consciousness, Self-consciousness and the Brain—Mind Problem and The Self and its Brain (excerpts). Here’s an interesting article on The Unity of Consciousness in The Stanford Encyclopedia of Consciousness, and here’s Thomas Nagel’s article, Brain Bisection and the Unity of Consciousness in Synthese, 22: 396–413 (1971). I’ll be back tomorrow.

Comments
Hi Kairosfocus, Thanks very much for the link to your article. I'd say it's one of the most convincing refutations I've read in a long while. Thanks again.vjtorley
July 20, 2013
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Mark: Just to be more specific: the self is always the same, but it receives different inputs separately, and so reacts to them separately. While it may appear that the self reacts to both sets of inputs at the same time, you know quite well that the flow of consciousness is made up of innumerable separate parts, continuously mixed up in time. The non integration of the brain reports inevitably reflects as the apparently contrasting outputs the self gives to the brain itself, quantum time after quantum time. And, to answer your last question: how can you be sure that your self today is the same as your self yesterday? Why do you (as me) worry about what will happen to you tomorrow in a way that is slightly :) different from the way you worry about someone else? And, just to be even more clear about the continuity of the self beyond its mental identifications, a very simple question: If you knew with absolute certainty that the following two events will take place: a) This evening you will loose all your present memories. b) Tomorrow you will be imprisoned and killed. will you still be worrying about what will happen to you tomorrow? I definitely would!gpuccio
July 20, 2013
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Mark: Have you ever heard of multitasking? Why shouldn't the self be able to do what even Windows can do all the time?gpuccio
July 20, 2013
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VJT: F/N, AF at 12 above, is willfully suppressing material context, slander by KS that I know for a fact you, AF, know or should know as this came out in the thread you were involved with where it happened he has neither retracted nor apologised for, as he has publicly stated [FYI AF, free speech does not include a 'right' to smear, falsely accuse to damage the reputation of others, defame etc . . . but then evo mat, due to its inescapable amorality, boils down to rights being kidnapped and tortured into saying they are anything you can get away with or persuade others to allow you to get away with, as Plato warned us long since in 360 BC], and inviting a side track. AF, your enabling behaviour and willfully continued misrepresentation (which FYI is deceptive: you know or SHOULD know better but choose instead to push false talking points . . . ) are duly noted as you continue to show your evo mat ideological agendas, involvement in a current smear and willingness to resort to tactics of misrepresentation. KFkairosfocus
July 20, 2013
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Gpuccio #16
The coexistence of apparently contrasting “acts” is no evidence of two separate perceivers, but of contrasting inputs to the same perceiving self. We must remember that in humans the self is strongly conditioned by its inputs, and that is perfectly compatible with the existence of free will and of free choices. A self which is obliged to choose how to react to split inputs does exactly that. Its final actions will appear split because the inputs are split, not because there are two separate perceivers.
When the self is reacting to one set of inputs is it aware that there is another set of inputs? If so, surely that awareness is part of its input and so it is odd that it should end up reacting in two ways simultaneously that conflict. If not, how can anyone (including the self) tell if there is one self or two?Mark Frank
July 20, 2013
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Proton,
Since determination of this correlation is a matter of direct observation with clear-cut results, then it’s great as a form of empirical evidence against free will, and the most important reason I personally regard free will as a useful fairy tale (I still believe in an inmaterial soul, I just don’t see evidence of it’s interaction with the material world)
Have you ever read James Gleick's Chaos? If not, I'd recommend it (or equivalent) to convince you beyond any doubt that scientific determinism is dead, and that various phenomena in certain conditions, as demonstrated first in meteorology, then electronics, mathematics, and other fields, are absolutely not predictable. Within chaos, you can easily hide God, free will, the Hellenistic view of the soul, the Hebrew view of the soul and the spirit, and who knows what else! Apparently, it turns out that the Harvard Law of Animal Behavior was correct after all:
"Under carefully controlled conditions, animals behave as they jolly well please."
;-)Querius
July 19, 2013
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Moreover, These following studies indicate that quantum information cannot be destroyed (i.e. quantum information is found to be ‘conserved’)
Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time – March 2011 Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html Quantum no-deleting theorem Excerpt: A stronger version of the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem provide permanence to quantum information. To create a copy one must import the information from some part of the universe and to delete a state one needs to export it to another part of the universe where it will continue to exist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_no-deleting_theorem#Consequence
semi-related note:
The Unbearable Wholeness of Beings – Steve Talbott Excerpt: Virtually the same collection of molecules exists in the canine cells during the moments immediately before and after death. But after the fateful transition no one will any longer think of genes as being regulated, nor will anyone refer to normal or proper chromosome functioning. No molecules will be said to guide other molecules to specific targets, and no molecules will be carrying signals, which is just as well because there will be no structures recognizing signals. Code, information, and communication, in their biological sense, will have disappeared from the scientist’s vocabulary. http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-unbearable-wholeness-of-beings
clear implications of all this?
Does Quantum Biology Support A Quantum Soul? – Stuart Hameroff – video (notes in description) http://vimeo.com/29895068 Quantum Entangled Consciousness (Permanence of Quantum Information)- Life After Death – Stuart Hameroff – video https://vimeo.com/39982578
Supplemental short video as to how completely devastated atheistic materialism now is by recent findings in quantum mechanics
Divinely Planted Quantum States – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCTBygadaM4#t=156s
Verse and music:
John 3:12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? High School Musical 2 – You are the music in me http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAXaQrh7m1o
There are some more nuances to be drawn out towards free will from advances in the Wheeler's delayed choice experiment, but suffice it for now to say that it is obvious as daylight that as far as our best empirical evidence from physics is concerned, the fact that we have a transcendent soul is just about as well established in science as any other theory in science is since the evidence for a soul does, in fact, rely directly on experimental proof from quantum mechanics which is arguably our most rigorously established theory in science ever.bornagain77
July 19, 2013
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please note the extreme level of certainty to which this finding is confirmed:
Do we create the world just by looking at it? – 2008 Excerpt: In mid-2007 Fedrizzi found that the new realism model was violated by 80 orders of magnitude; the group was even more assured that quantum mechanics was correct. http://seedmagazine.com/content/article/the_reality_tests/P3/
And although I am not quite sure what it means to violate something by ’80 orders of magnitude’, (I suspect it is a very good level of certainty since the universe ‘only’ has 80 orders of magnitude subatomic particles in it), the following test went beyond even that 10^80 level of certainty:
A simple approach to test Leggett’s model of nonlocal quantum correlations – 2009 Excerpt of Abstract: Bell’s strong sentence “Correlations cry out for explanations” remains relevant,,,we go beyond Leggett’s model, and show that one cannot ascribe even partially defined individual properties to the components of a maximally entangled pair. http://www.mendeley.com/research/a-simple-approach-to-test-leggetts-model-of-nonlocal-quantum-correlations/
But to see how much confidence we can put in these quantum experiments, I was able to find another ballpark figure for how confident we can be that ‘transcendent’ quantum non-locality is real:
Closing the last Bell-test loophole for photons – June 11, 2013 Excerpt: that confirmed quantum entanglement to nearly 70 standard deviations.,,, http://phys.org/news/2013-06-bell-test-loophole-photons.html
The following articles gives us a small glimpse as to what it truly means for non-local, beyond space and time, quantum entanglement to be confirmed to an order of ’70 standard deviations’:
Standard deviation Excerpt: Particle physics uses a standard of “5 sigma” for the declaration of a discovery.[3] At five-sigma there is only one chance in nearly two million that a random fluctuation would yield the result. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation#Particle_physics SSDD: a 22 sigma event is consistent with the physics of fair coins? – June 23, 2013 Excerpt: So 500 coins heads is (500-250)/11 = 22 standard deviations (22 sigma) from expectation! These numbers are so extreme, it’s probably inappropriate to even use the normal distribution’s approximation of the binomial distribution, and hence “22 sigma” just becomes a figure of speech in this extreme case… https://uncommondescent.com/mathematics/ssdd-a-22-sigma-event-is-consistent-with-the-physics-of-fair-coins/
That means we can have more confidence than we can even reasonably imagine that these findings for a ‘Theistic’ universe are correct. Thus as far as any supposed conflict between science and faith, it appears the atheistic/materialistic religion is the one left holding the bag as to requiring its believers to have complete ‘blind faith’ with no real evidence that it is true: Where this non-local, ‘outside space and time’, quantum entanglement gains traction within molecular biology as to firmly establishing a transcendent soul for each man, woman and child, is here. Quantum entanglement/information has now been found within molecular biology on a massive scale:
Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA – Elisabeth Rieper – short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/ Quantum entanglement between the electron clouds of nucleic acids in DNA – Elisabeth Rieper, Janet Anders and Vlatko Vedral – February 2011 http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1006/1006.4053v2.pdf
It turns out, besides DNA, that non-local quantum entanglement/information has been confirmed to be deeply embedded in protein structures as well;
Coherent Intrachain energy migration at room temperature – Elisabetta Collini and Gregory Scholes – University of Toronto – Science, 323, (2009), pp. 369-73 Excerpt: The authors conducted an experiment to observe quantum coherence dynamics in relation to energy transfer. The experiment, conducted at room temperature, examined chain conformations, such as those found in the proteins of living cells. Neighbouring molecules along the backbone of a protein chain were seen to have coherent energy transfer. Where this happens quantum decoherence (the underlying tendency to loss of coherence due to interaction with the environment) is able to be resisted, and the evolution of the system remains entangled as a single quantum state. http://www.scimednet.org/quantum-coherence-living-cells-and-protein/ Physicists Discover Quantum Law of Protein Folding – February 22, 2011 Quantum mechanics finally explains why protein folding depends on temperature in such a strange way. Excerpt: First, a little background on protein folding. Proteins are long chains of amino acids that become biologically active only when they fold into specific, highly complex shapes. The puzzle is how proteins do this so quickly when they have so many possible configurations to choose from. To put this in perspective, a relatively small protein of only 100 amino acids can take some 10^100 different configurations. If it tried these shapes at the rate of 100 billion a second, it would take longer than the age of the universe to find the correct one. Just how these molecules do the job in nanoseconds, nobody knows.,,, Their astonishing result is that this quantum transition model fits the folding curves of 15 different proteins and even explains the difference in folding and unfolding rates of the same proteins. That’s a significant breakthrough. Luo and Lo’s equations amount to the first universal laws of protein folding. That’s the equivalent in biology to something like the thermodynamic laws in physics. http://www.technologyreview.com/view/423087/physicists-discover-quantum-law-of-protein/
bornagain77
July 19, 2013
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Since there are many competing interests in this post as to definition of soul and free will, and since, contrary to the Darwinists abuse of empirical evidence, empirical evidence is suppose to have final say as to what is true in science. Let's, once again, review what our best empirical evidence can tell us about the existence of a transcendent soul. First, for a little background, let's remember the disparity in observational evidence as to a soul when compared to observational evidence for Darwinism:
Near-Death Experiences: Putting a Darwinist's Evidentiary Standards to the Test - Dr. Michael Egnor - October 15, 2012 Excerpt: Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE's are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception -- such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc. Additionally, many NDE's have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations.,,, The most "parsimonious" explanation -- the simplest scientific explanation -- is that the (Near Death) experience was real. Tens of millions of people have had such experiences. That is tens of millions of more times than we have observed the origin of species (or origin of life, or origin of a molecular machine, or origin of a protein), which is never.,,, The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE's show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it's earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it's all a big yawn. Note: Dr. Egnor is professor and vice-chairman of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/near_death_expe_1065301.html "A recent analysis of several hundred cases showed that 48% of near-death experiencers reported seeing their physical bodies from a different visual perspective. Many of them also reported witnessing events going on in the vicinity of their body, such as the attempts of medical personnel to resuscitate them (Kelly et al., 2007)." Kelly, E. W., Greyson, B., & Kelly, E. F. (2007). Unusual experiences near death and related phenomena. In E. F. Kelly, E. W. Kelly, A. Crabtree, A. Gauld, M. Grosso, & B. Greyson, Irreducible mind (pp. 367-421). Lanham, MD: Rowman & Littlefield. Michaela's Amazing NEAR death experience - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLEmETQdMkg&feature=player_detailpage#t=629s
Even a survey people who have been blind from birth found that they was a remarkably consistent finding of being able to see for the first time:
Kenneth Ring and Sharon Cooper (1997) conducted a study of 31 blind people, many of who reported vision during their Near Death Experiences (NDEs). 21 of these people had had an NDE while the remaining 10 had had an out-of-body experience (OBE), but no NDE. It was found that in the NDE sample, about half had been blind from birth. (of note: This 'anomaly' is also found for deaf people who can hear sound during their Near Death Experiences(NDEs).) http://www.newdualism.org/nde-papers/Ring/Ring-Journal%20of%20Near-Death%20Studies_1997-16-101-147-1.pdf
Moreover, all ad hoc rationalizations by materialists to try to 'explain away' these findings have fallen by the wayside
Dr. Jeffrey Long: Just how strong is the evidence for a afterlife? - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mptGAc3XWPs
All this evidence is fine and well as to giving us strong reason to suspect there is a transcendent soul which survives after death, but can we establish the case for a soul more rigorously as far as empirical measurement itself is concerned? Yes, we can! First a little background on the Bell and Leggett inequalities:
Quantum Entanglement – (Bohr-Einstein) - The Failure Of Local Realism - Materialism - Alain Aspect - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/4744145 Alain Aspect and Anton Zeilinger by Richard Conn Henry – Physics Professor – John Hopkins University Excerpt: Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality, then ultimately (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the “illusion” of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism (solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one’s own mind is sure to exist). (Dr. Henry’s referenced experiment and paper – “An experimental test of non-local realism” by S. Gröblacher et. al., Nature 446, 871, April 2007 – “To be or not to be local” by Alain Aspect, Nature 446, 866, April 2007 http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/aspect.html “I’m going to talk about the Bell inequality, and more importantly a new inequality that you might not have heard of called the Leggett inequality, that was recently measured. It was actually formulated almost 30 years ago by Professor Leggett, who is a Nobel Prize winner, but it wasn’t tested until about a year and a half ago (in 2007), when an article appeared in Nature, that the measurement was made by this prominent quantum group in Vienna led by Anton Zeilinger, which they measured the Leggett inequality, which actually goes a step deeper than the Bell inequality and rules out any possible interpretation other than consciousness creates reality when the measurement is made.” – Bernard Haisch, Ph.D., Calphysics Institute, is an astrophysicist and author of over 130 scientific publications.
Preceding quote taken from this following video;
Quantum Mechanics and Consciousness – A New Measurement – Bernard Haisch, Ph.D (Shortened version of entire video with notes in description of video) http://vimeo.com/37517080 Quantum physics says goodbye to reality – Apr 20, 2007 Excerpt: They found that, just as in the realizations of Bell’s thought experiment, Leggett’s inequality is violated – thus stressing the quantum-mechanical assertion that reality does not exist when we’re not observing it. “Our study shows that ‘just’ giving up the concept of locality would not be enough to obtain a more complete description of quantum mechanics,” Aspelmeyer told Physics Web. “You would also have to give up certain intuitive features of realism.” http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/27640
bornagain77
July 19, 2013
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Hi Alan, Thanks for the update about KeithS. I'll be back in about 14 hours with further comments. I might visit TSZ if I have the time (I'm working on half a dozen posts at the moment).vjtorley
July 19, 2013
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@Querius One of the things that (to my constant surprise) is always ignored in free will discussions is that neurology is not all there is to it. Quantum effects, particle-wave duality, epigenetics, etc are indirect and complicated ways to dive into the study of free will. A more direct approach, and more fruitful in my opinion, is to study the correlation between certain choices and people's backgrounds/circumstances, and if a correlation exists, then it suggests that choices aren't really free (even if they look like it), because they are constrained by higher forces, such forces being the background and/or circumstances. I've discussed this with Barb for weeks now I think, here and here. Just to clarify, by "background/circumstances" I mean genes, culture, health, past events, etc, basically anything that can have an effect in decisions. Since determination of this correlation is a matter of direct observation with clear-cut results, then it's great as a form of empirical evidence against free will, and the most important reason I personally regard free will as a useful fairy tale (I still believe in an inmaterial soul, I just don't see evidence of it's interaction with the material world)Proton
July 19, 2013
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Alan: It is certainly worth looking. But, as you may remember, I am not sure that a violation of mass and energy is really necessary. It is a possibility, however. What is absolutely necessary is a violation of the intrinsic probabilistic laws at quantum level. ID theory is the mainframe to detect that. It is the emergence of meaning and purpose in apparently meaningless and purposeless matter that really counts. That's why the concept of CSI, in all its forms, is a true revolution in human thought: it connects consciousness with something that can be measured in matter. And anyway, are you so sure that matter is reality and imagination is imaginary? Matter is even difficult to define. And imagination happens in reality, after all...gpuccio
July 19, 2013
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Thanks for an always thoughtful response, gpuccio. You are a singular ID proponent! My eternal problem with dualism is the interface. I can deal with reality and I can imagine the imaginary. It's the crossover, the impinging, the interface that is the issue for me. There has to be aviolation of the sum of mass and energy for this to happen and it should be detectable. Do you think it is worth looking?Alan Fox
July 19, 2013
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Alan: It depends on what you mean by "soul" and "self". As I said, if we conceive of the self as the transcendental subject, I can see no problem at all. The self can certainly manage two different "personalities", in an abnormal condition of the brain. I don't mean that it can manage them "well". The condition remains abnormal, some form of "disease". But there is no need at all to require two different "subjects". The structures of the mind are not the self. The mind works with the inputs of the brain, and is strongly related to them (in both directions). But all subjective representations happen ultimately in the transcendental self. I am always surprised at how reductionists consider very trivial points as evidence that conscious experiences are only a product of the brain. I always say that we have been completely aware of the strict relationships between matter and consciousness for millennia. Whoever has perceived a colour, felt a physical pain, or just acted on material objects, knows all too well that matter and consciousness are strictly related. But in no way that means that matter generates consciousness. So, what is new in our "modern" neuroscience? Nothing at all. We discover that a molecule in our brain makes us feel sad, and we think we have understood the mystery of sadness. Complete folly! The mystery of pain was completely there since the first man cut his finger with a stone. Matter does condition us. A lot. We all know that. If it is matter outside our body (a knife, cold, fire) or matter in our body (a neurotransmitter, a damage to our brain), what is the difference. It is matter influencing consciousness all the same. So, yes, if we cut the corpus callosum, we do create a completely new condition for the self. But the self is always the same. In the same way, if we educate a boy in a way or another, he will change. But the self is always the same. In psychiatric patients, the self may perceive very different things, compared to a "normal" person. But it is there just the same. While we sleep or dream, our self perceives different states. In a dream, we can be a very different person than we are when we are awake. In a dream, we are sometimes many different persons. In life too, many times. But our self is always our self. It's me. "I" suffer, not another person. "I" enjoy, not another person. The subject remains the same.gpuccio
July 19, 2013
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Where is the problem?
I guess it only arises if you think the self is or is associated with an immaterial soul. In a split-brain patient, must there be two souls or can one soul manage two selfs?Alan Fox
July 19, 2013
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I would like to try a comment. I must say that I prefer not to reason in terms of "substance", so I will try to stay more empirical. So, let's say that I believe that the perceiver of all conscious experiences is a transcendental subject. And that, in the human case, that subject is in some way connected to the perception of data from the body and brain. So, my view on the famous 6 points could be as follows: 1. There is an immaterial soul. Well, let's say that certainly there is a self which is the subject of all conscious experiences, and I don'r believe that such a self can be explained in material terms. I will not say more, because for me the term "material" is much more difficult to define than the term "subjective self". 2. The immaterial soul is the seat of knowledge. Not exact. Let's say that the self is the "seat" where all subjective experiences take place, including those of meaning and cognition. But meanings and cognition are experiences about data that come as input to the self. 3. The immaterial soul is the seat of the will. I would rather say that the self is the originator of free acts, in the sense of free responses to stimuli, choices between possible responses. 4. The immaterial soul initiates voluntary actions. Yes, the self does that, in the sense I have specified. But those voluntary actions (free choice about how to respond) certainly depend also on the input the self receives. 5. The immaterial soul receives information from both hemispheres. OK. In normal conditions, I suppose that is true. The self certainly receives inputs from both emispheres. 6. The immaterial soul sends commands to both hemispheres. I would say that, in a normal brain, the self interacts with the whole brain according to the brain structure and workings. So, what happens with a split brain? IMO, the answer is simple enough. The self receives completely different inputs from the two emispheres, inputs that are no more correctly integrated, and reacts as it can. Where is the problem? The coexistence of apparently contrasting "acts" is no evidence of two separate perceivers, but of contrasting inputs to the same perceiving self. We must remember that in humans the self is strongly conditioned by its inputs, and that is perfectly compatible with the existence of free will and of free choices. A self which is obliged to choose how to react to split inputs does exactly that. Its final actions will appear split because the inputs are split, not because there are two separate perceivers. That would be my answer to Mark's post #14.gpuccio
July 19, 2013
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keiths has nothing to say- all he has is his BS, strawmen and more unsupported nonsense. IOW keiths isn't central to anything but keiths. Buy hey that goes for all anti-ID people.Joe
July 19, 2013
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What would help me is to know how many souls a split-brain patient has according to each theory.Mark Frank
July 19, 2013
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Whats rediculous is that skeptics keep ignoring all the evidence for veridical nde's to pretend that there is no evidence or its some kind of hallucination. Split brain doesnt disprove free will at all. Damaging one hemisphere just proves that you can damage one piece of the hardware, nothing elsewallstreeter43
July 19, 2013
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@ Vincent In case you were unaware, KeithS, the commenter central to your OP is no longer able to post comments here. In the absence of explanations from "management", I am assuming his registration has been revoked. You are of course able to continue discussion at TSZ where there is minimal interference with the free exchange of ideas.Alan Fox
July 19, 2013
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I had to look it up. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/supervenience/ Ugh. I know some people really like this stuff, but it just doesn't appeal to me. It's like arguing about massless elephants sliding around on frictionless ice, or watching a battle to the death between a blind cobra and a crippled mongoose. :PQuerius
July 18, 2013
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VJ:
"2. The immaterial soul is the seat of knowledge." A substance dualist would say yes.
Why? Isn't knowledge just like memory?tragic mishap
July 18, 2013
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Darn it. I mean "2" I completely reject. "3" I accept unequivocably.tragic mishap
July 18, 2013
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I meant to continue my previous post. The qualification of 4 would be as follows: Suppose I employed my immaterial will to write a program in my material brain that tells my brain to think lustful thoughts every time I look at a woman. At that point the brain will now run this program every time I happen to see a woman without directly consulting the will each and every time. My will is not required to initiate the action, but the action is still voluntary in the sense that I wrote the program prescribing the action and could potentially delete it. (This provides a neat answer to the split brain problem. Programs written for two hemispheres communicating and resolving competing priorities will no longer function properly if the hemispheres are disconnected.) 3 I completely reject. 5 and 6 could be true or false but it is impossible to answer the question.tragic mishap
July 18, 2013
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Spilt brain implies our brain is the place of thinking and everything we are. The bible teaches the soul is this and its unrelated to the brain. If there is a problem or change in our thinking it merely can be seen as a issue of interference with the memory. No split souls. Just split memories.Robert Byers
July 18, 2013
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"Assume that: 1. There is an immaterial soul. 2. The immaterial soul is the seat of knowledge. 3. The immaterial soul is the seat of the will. 4. The immaterial soul initiates voluntary actions. 5. The immaterial soul receives information from both hemispheres. 6. The immaterial soul sends commands to both hemispheres." If one makes all of these assumptions, then it id indeed true that dualism is in trouble. However, no dualist that I know makes all of these assumptions.
Well I'm a substance dualist, and I only accept 1 and 3 unequivocally. I would accept 4 with some qualifications.tragic mishap
July 18, 2013
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This whole debate is foolish. Since when does science explain anything? Science describes and does not explain. What is foolish is that a worldview of some kind is mingled into whatever science describes, from whence endless debates take place in which everybody involved searches and finds arguments for his respective worldview. Anyway, since the phlogiston theory we know that most scientists will rather die with their false theory than examine the arguments of another which is not mainstream. Nowadays where the mainstream theory is evolution, well, if you are not materialistic in your thinking you won't find any understanding at all of what you may say, because most of those debating do not even have the will to follow you thoughts. They will declare your thoughts as "non-scientific" and "stupid". -------- Die grosse Täuschung der Moderne ist, dass die Naturwissenschaft uns alles erklärt. Die Naturwissenschaft beschreibt. Sie erklärt garnichts. Ludwig Wittgenstein -------- But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart. (1Sa 16:7) -------someone else
July 18, 2013
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A quick comment. As I am reading it, both the version A and version B that you discuss would seem to be possibly compatible with a non-reductive physicalism such as might be described as supervenience. Am I reading that correctly?Neil Rickert
July 18, 2013
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Keiths wanted you to know that he will not be posting to this thread. He believes that he has been banned from posting at UD. He may post responses at TSZ.Neil Rickert
July 18, 2013
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Proton,
Split-brain cases give great support to the idea that free will is false.
Why? Most people experience inner conflicts that they negotiate. Haven't you ever felt so angry that you felt like hitting someone. But you didn't. Or maybe you did. ;-) Why is there a conflict at all? Maybe one can argue that the conflict is part of the illusion of free will. I really wouldn't know how it could be argued either way. Perhaps one could say one has a free will because it feels that way. Chaos theory demonstrates that nature, especially around the edges, is not deterministic. What I do suggest is that the interactions are likely *not* to be simple. Consider quantum effects, particle-wave duality, epigenetics, and so on.Querius
July 18, 2013
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1 2 3

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