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Do split-brain cases disprove the existence of an immaterial soul? (Part Two)

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In my last post, I discussed the problem of split-brain cases, which was first raised by KeithS in a post over at The Skeptical Zone titled, Split-brain patients and the dire implications for the soul (June 22, 2013). I began by distinguishing three varieties of dualism (leaving aside property dualism, whose inadequacies from a theistic standpoint have already been ably exposed by Professor William Dembski – see here and here), which I referred to as substance dualism, thought control dualism and formal-final dualism. I then examined the six assumptions used in KeithS’s split-brain argument from the perspective of each of these versions of dualism.

What is a split-brain operation?

Before I go on, I’d like to provide a brief scientific explanation of what a split-brain operation is. The information below is taken from a Web page created by the Psychology Department at Macalester College (bold emphases are mine):

In a normal brain, stimuli entering one hemisphere is rapidly communicated by way of the corpus callosum to the other hemisphere, so the brain functions as a unit. When the corpus callosum of an individual is severed, leaving a split brain, the two hemispheres cannot communicate. In some forms of epilepsy a seizure will start in one hemisphere, triggering a massive discharge of neurons through the corpus callosum and into the second hemisphere. In an effort to prevent such massive seizures in severe epileptics, neurosurgeons can surgically sever the corpus callosum, a procedure called a commissurotomy. If one side of the brain can no longer stimulate the other, the likelihood of severe epileptic seizures is greatly reduced.

Answering KeithS’s questions on split brain patients

In this post, I’d like to discuss and respond to KeithS’s reductio ad absurdum argument. He begins by posing three questions, based on actual cases of split-brain patients, described in the medical literature:

1. In the case of the man who attacked his wife with one arm and defended her with the other, what did the soul want to do? Is the soul guilty of attacking her? Does the soul get credit for defending her?

2. If the right hemisphere knows something that the left hemisphere doesn’t, then does the soul know it? What if it’s the other way around, with the left hemisphere knowing something that the right hemisphere doesn’t?

3. In the case of the patient whose left hemisphere didn’t believe in God but whose right hemisphere did, what did the soul believe? Was the soul a theist or an atheist?
[NOTE: KeithS is alluding here to a case discussed by the neurologist Dr. V. S. Ramachandran in a video lecture in 2006, about a split brain patient who was asked to point to “Yes,” “No” or “I don’t know,” in response to a series of questions, and whose right hemisphere, when shown the question, “Do you believe in God?”, directed the patient to point to “Yes,” while the patient’s left hemisphere, in response to the same question, directed the patient to point to “No.”]

I might add another interesting case which I’ve come across, relating to a patient named Paul S. (whose case history is discussed in detail on a Macalester College Web page on split-brain consciousness), who underwent brain bisection in the 1970s, and whose right hemisphere (unlike that of most split-brain patients) was able to understand not only nouns, but also verbal commands and also questions, after surgery, and respond to these questions in writing, giving simple one-word answers:

Paul’s right hemisphere developed considerable language ability sometime previous to the operation. Although it is uncommon, occasionally the right hemisphere may share substantial neural circuits with, or even dominate, the left hemisphere’s centers for language comprehension and production. The fact that Paul’s right hemisphere was so well developed in its verbal capacity opened a closed door for researchers. For almost all split brain patients, the thoughts and perceptions of the right hemisphere are locked away from expression. Researchers were finally able to interview both hemispheres on their views about friendship, love, hate and aspirations.

Paul’s right hemisphere stated that he wanted to be an automobile racer while his left hemisphere wanted to be a draftsman. Both hemispheres were asked to write whether they liked or disliked a series of items. The study was performed during the Watergate scandal, and one of the items was Richard Nixon. Paul’s right hemisphere expressed “dislike,” while his left expressed “like.”

(Reference: Atkinson, Rita L., Introduction to Psychology, Eleventh Edition , Harcourt Brace College Publishers, Orlando, c. 1993.)

The case of Paul S. is fully described in an article by Joseph E. LeDoux, Donald H. Wilson and Michael S. Gazzaniga, titled, A Divided Mind: Observations on the Conscious Properties of the Separated Hemispheres (Annals of Neurology 2:417-421, 1977). I’ll quote a few relevant excerpts here:

The question of whether the essence of human consciousness can be represented bilaterally in the split brain patient has so far remained unanswered. The following observations on a new patient, Patient P. S., may help to resolve the issue. For the first time, it has been possible to ask subjective questions of the separated right hemisphere and to witness self-generated answers from this mute half-brain. This opportunity was made possible by the fact that linguistic representation in the right hemisphere of our patient is greater than has been observed in any other split-brain patient. In addition to an extensive capacity for comprehending written and spoken language, the right hemisphere, though unable to generate speech, can express its mental content by arranging letters to spell words [12]…

Results

The right half-brain spelled “Paul” in response to the question “Who are you!” When requested to spell his favorite girl, the right hemisphere arranged the Scrabble letters to spell “Liz.” The right hemisphere spelled “car” for his favorite hobby. When the right hemisphere was asked to spell his favorite person, the following was generated: “Henry Wi Fozi.” (Henry Winkler is the actor who plays Fonzie.) The right hemisphere generated “Sunday” in response to the question “What is tomorrow?” When asked to describe his mood, the right hemisphere spelled out “good.” Later, in response to the same question, the left spelled “silly.” Finally, the right hemisphere spelled out “automobile race” as the job he would pick. This contrasts with the frequent assertion of the left hemisphere that he will be a “draftsman.” In fact, shortly after the test session, when asked what he would like to do for a living, the left hemisphere said, “Oh, be a draftsman, I guess.” … Finally, it should be noted that on each of these right hemisphere trials the patient was unable to name the lateralized information, thus confirming that the left hemisphere did not have access to the critical information.

Discussion

It is important to reemphasize that these responses were self generated by the right hemisphere from a set of infinite possibilities. The only aid provided to the right hemisphere was the two complete alphabets from which he could select letters at will…

Each hemisphere in P. S. has a sense of self, and each possesses its own system for subjectively evaluating current events, planning for future events, setting response priorities, and generating personal responses…

On a day that this boy’s left and right hemispheres equally valued himself, his friends, and other matters, he was calm, tractable, and appealing. On a day when testing indicated that the right and left sides disagreed on these evaluations, the boy became difficult to manage behaviorally.

I therefore propose to add two more questions to KeithS’s list:

4. What did Paul S.’s soul want to be, an automobile racer or a draftsman?

5. Did Paul S.’s soul support or oppose President Richard Nixon?

These are all fair questions, and they deserve straight answers.

Sir John Eccles on split brain cases

I’ll begin by examining what the late Nobel Prize-winning neurophysiologist Sir John Eccles, a modern substance dualist, had to say about split-brain cases.

To begin with, I would invite readers to take a look at this diagram, taken from Eccles’ 1979 Gifford Lectures on The human psyche. As readers can see, the main channel of communication between the (disembodied) conscious self and the brain is via the dominant left hemisphere, but there is also a limited degree of communication with the minor right hemisphere. Next, here is a diagram of communications to and from the brain and within the brain, after the corpus callosum has been severed. Communication from the conscious self to and from the brain is now exclusively via the dominant left hemisphere.

In his 1979 Gifford lectures on The human psyche, Sir John Eccles describes the performance of the two hemispheres of the brain, after a split brain operation:

[T]he left (speaking) hemisphere has a linguistic ability not greatly impaired. It also carries a good memory of the past linked with a good intellectual performance and with an emotional life not greatly disturbed. However it is deficient in all spatial and constructional tasks. By contrast the right hemisphere has a very limited linguistic ability. It has access to a considerable auditory vocabulary, being able to recognize commands and to relate words presented by hearing or vision to pictorial representations. It was also surprising that the right hemisphere responded to verbs as effectively as to action names. Despite all this display of language comprehension, the right hemisphere is extremely deficient in expression in speech or in writing, which is effectively zero. However, in contrast to the left hemisphere, it is very effective in all spatial and constructive tasks and it is also proficient in global recognition tasks.

After reviewing some investigations by Roger Sperry et al. (1979) on two split-brain patients that were designed to test for aspects of self-consciousness in the right hemisphere, Eccles was forced to acknowledge:

It can hardly be doubted that the right hemisphere has at least a limited self-consciousness.

But then he went on to add:

These tests for the existence of mind and of self-conscious mind [in the right hemisphere – VJT] are at a relatively simple pictorial and emotional level. We can still doubt if the right hemisphere has a full self-conscious existence. For example, does it plan and worry about the future, does it make decisions and judgements based on some value system? These are essential qualifications for personhood as ordinarily understood (Strawson, 1959; Popper and Eccles, 1977, Sects. 31 and 33)…

I would agree with DeWitt’s (1975) interpretation of the situation after commissurotomy:

Both minor and major hemispheres are conscious in that they both, no doubt, have the basic phenomenal awareness of perceptions, sensations, etc. And they both have minds … in that they exhibit elaborated, organised systems of response hierarchies, i.e., intentional behaviour. But in addition I would conjecture that only the major hemisphere has a self; only the language utilising brain is capable of the abstract cognising necessary in order to be aware of itself as a unique being. In a word, only the major hemisphere is aware of itself as a self.

This corresponds to the situation in real life, where the associates of the patient find no difficulty after the operation in regarding it as the self or person that it was before the operation. The patients themselves would of course concur, but they do have a problem arising from the splitting of the conscious mind. There is the difficulty in controlling the movements emanating from the activity of the right hemisphere with its associated mind. These movements are completely beyond the control of the conscious self or person that is exercised through the left hemisphere. For example they refer to their uncontrollable left hand as their ‘rogue hand’.

It would seem that this interpretation of DeWitt conforms with all the observational data on the commissurotomy subjects, but avoids the extreme philosophical difficulties inherent in the hypothesis of Puccetti that even normally there is a duality of personhood – ‘two persons in one brain’ as he provocatively expresses it.

Eccles died in 1997. More recent studies have shown that both hemispheres of the brain are extensively involved in self-recognition, and that only the right hemisphere possesses the further ability to recognize familiar others (see Lucina Q. Uddin et al., “Split-brain reveals separate but equal self-recognition in the two cerebral hemispheres”, Consciousness and Cognition 14, 2005, pp. 633–640). In an article titled, Self-Awareness and the Left Hemisphere: The Dark Side of Selectively Reviewing the Literature (Cortex, (2007) 43, 1068-1073), Alain Morin argues forcefully that it is a mistake to equate self-recognition (the ability to recognize oneself in a mirror) with self-awareness, which requires a deeper awareness of one’s current emotions, goals, values and thinking patterns. Even the much-vaunted “Theory of Mind” (or the recognition that other minds exist out there in the real world) fails to exhaust self-awareness – as Morin puts it, “It is very likely indeed that one needs first to access one’s own mental self before one can ponder about others’ potentially comparable inner life” (p. 1069). Morin finds that self-awareness is widely distributed across both sides of the brain, but suggests that if anything, it is the left hemisphere (and not the right hemisphere, as argued recently by some authors) which predominates in self-awareness. Elsewhere, Morin argues for the notion of a relation between inner speech and self-awareness, and he concludes: “one must not neglect the role of language (i.e., inner speech) in self-awareness — an activity deeply associated with normal functioning of the left hemisphere.” (Right hemispheric self-awareness: A critical assessment, Consciousness and Cognition 11 (2002) 396–401.)

In another paper, titled, “The split-brain debate revisited: On the importance of language and self-recognition for right hemispheric consciousness” (Journal of Mind and Behavior (2001) 22 (2):107-118), Morin elaborates his argument for the significance of inner speech in self-awareness. Inner speech, he writes, allows us to “incorporate other persons’ potential views of ourselves in our self-talk and gain an objective vision of ourselves which facilitates self-observation” and “address comments to ourselves about ourselves, as others do towards us.” Referring to the mute right hemisphere, he writes: “Certainly it can experience an emotion, but without inner speech I suggest that it might not clearly know that it is experiencing it.” Morin concludes his discussion of split brain cases as follows:

My position is that two unequal streams of consciousness (i.e. self-awareness) emerge out of the transection of the forebrain commissures…. [T]his analysis incorporates empirical evidence (1) regarding the importance of language (inner speech) for self-awareness, and (2) concerning the legitimacy of self-recognition as an operationalization of self-awareness.

Morin adds that in his opinion, the case of Paul S. (discussed above) is “the only convincing case of real full double self-awareness in a split brain patient,” probably owing to the fact that this patient suffered early brain injury in the left hemisphere at the age of two, which led to his language abilities being bilateralzed. Morin regards it as an open question as to whether Paul S. actually has “two independent streams of inner speech – two concurrent but different self-conversations” (p. 531). For my part, I would regard such a claim as doubtful: the extent of Paul S.’s right-hemispheric language abilities amounted to comprehension of simple verbal commands and questions (in oral form), the ability to read single words and the ability to spell single words with Scrabble letters. That’s hardly an argument for the existence of a second independent streams of inner speech in the right brain.

I conclude that Sir John Eccles’ empirical claim that the conscious self is predominantly linked to the left hemisphere of the brain remains a highly defensible position which will probably turn out to be verified over the next few decades, whatever one may think of Eccles’ interactionist substance dualism.

A substance dualist’s answers to five tricky questions on split brain patients

We can now answer the five questions posed above, from the standpoint of Sir John Eccles’ modern version of Descartes’ substance dualism. It is important to note that for Eccles, the terms “self” and “soul” were more or less inter-changeable, as when he wrote: “I am constrained to attribute the uniqueness of the Self or Soul to a supernatural spiritual creation” (Evolution of the Brain: Creation of the Self, Routledge, paperback, 1991, p. 249), and he went on to liken the body and brain to a computer built by genetic coding, while “the Soul or Self is the programmer of the computer” (pp. 249-250).

1. In the case of the man who attacked his wife with one arm and defended her with the other, he attacked her with his left hand (which is controlled by the right hemisphere) while simultaneously trying to protect her with his right arm (which is controlled by the left hemisphere). Since the conscious self interfaces with the brain only via the dominant left hemisphere after a split-brain operation, what the man’s soul wanted to do was to defend his wife – an act for which he gets credit. The man is not morally responsible for what his rogue left hand does, as it is controlled by the right hemisphere, which is no longer controlled by the conscious self.

Indeed, Eccles famously suggested in The Self and its Brain (Berlin: Springer International, 1977, p. 329) that a homicide committed by the left hand of a split brain patient (which is controlled by the right hemisphere) would be manslaughter rather than murder!

2. If the right hemisphere knows something that the left hemisphere doesn’t, then the conscious self (or soul) doesn’t know it. But if If the left hemisphere knows something that the right hemisphere doesn’t, then the conscious self knows it.

3. In the case of the patient whose left hemisphere didn’t believe in God but whose right hemisphere did, the patient’s soul, I am sorry to say, didn’t believe in God. In the case described by Dr. Ramachandran, all the patient had to do was point to “Yes” or “No”, when asked, “Do you believe in God?” But that behavior is not enough to warrant the attribution of a belief to someone, in the way in which that word is properly applied to rational beings. A belief is pre-eminently something which you may be called upon to justify, and state your reasons for. The patient’s right hemisphere couldn’t say why it believed in God; nor could it defend its point of view against objections. Hence it could hardly be said to have a belief in the proper sense of the word. It may have had a residual belief in God from early childhood, when people are unable to vocalize the grounds for their beliefs, but since the patient, as an adult, came to consciously reject that belief, then the patient’s soul, or conscious self, will be held liable for this rejection and judged accordingly.

4. Paul S.’s soul or conscious self wanted to be a draftsman, since that is the answer given by his left hemisphere.

5. Paul S.’s soul supported President Richard Nixon, since his left hemisphere expressed a liking for the man.

How would a thought control dualist answer these five questions?

One of the main differences between substance dualism and thought control dualism is that the former identifies the soul with the highest part of a human being – the conscious self – whereas the latter regards the soul as a hierarchical structure which informs the body at multiple levels, the highest of which (rational thought) is immaterial. In other words, thought control dualism, like Professor Edward Feser’s formal-final dualism, is hylemorphic: it regards the soul as the essential form of the body.

What that means is that according to thought control dualism. my lower mental states (e.g. sensations, desires) are just as much “mine” as my higher mental states (e.g. acts of reasoning, understanding and will). However, I am only morally culpable for those states which are subject to rational control.

1. In the case of the man who attacked his wife with his left hand (which is controlled by the right hemisphere) while simultaneously trying to protect her with his right arm (which is controlled by the left hemisphere), what his soul wanted to do on a rational level was to protect his wife. However, on a sub-rational level, he may well have had some feelings of hostility towards his wife. These feelings would also be attributable to his soul, but because the movement of his left hand was no longer subject to reason, he would not be morally culpable for attacking his wife with his left hand, as it is controlled by the right hemisphere.

A thought control dualist would agree with Eccles’ contention that a homicide committed by the left hand of a split brain patient (which is controlled by the right hemisphere) could not be called murder.

2. If the right hemisphere knows something that the left hemisphere doesn’t, then a thought control dualist would say that the soul does know it, but not in a manner which is amenable to reason and critical thinking. (It would be interesting to see what happened if the right hemisphere of a split brain patient was exposed to someone dressed up as a ghost. How, I wonder, would the patient react? My guess is that unless the patient was previously skeptical of ghosts, it would be impossible to convince the right hemisphere that what it had seen was not a ghost.)

What the dominant left hemisphere knows, on the other hand, is amenable to critical thinking and reflection. Such knowledge belongs to the highest faculties of the soul.

3. In the case of the patient whose left hemisphere didn’t believe in God but whose right hemisphere did, a thought control dualist would say that the soul retained, at some level, a habit of belief (derived from childhood, perhaps) in God. However, such a belief is no longer amenable to reason in the split brain patient. By contrast, the belief expressed by the patient’s left hemisphere is a belief that the patient could justify and give reasons for, if asked to do so. Thus it counts as a bona fide belief.

Sometimes, it is true, we may think we believe that something is true because we consciously avow it, but at a subconscious level, we intuitively recognize that what we consciously declare is mistaken. (I know a man who once told me of two ex-Catholics he knew, who publicly denied the faith, but who re-expressed a belief in it after they’d had a few beers!) In a person with a normally functioning brain, reason and intuition doubtless have lots of little tussles of this sort, and they usually manage to resolve them eventually. The truly sad thing about the split brain patient is that this kind of resolution cannot take place. In the case of the left-brain atheist discussed by KeithS, the patient’s right brain may know on an intuitive level that there is a God, but the bridge between intuition and reason has been severed. God, being merciful, will take the patient’s impairment into account.

4. Paul S.’s soul wanted to be a draftsman on a rational level, but on a more primitive, feeling-based level, his soul wanted to be an automobile racer.

5. Paul S.’s soul liked President Richard Nixon on a rational level, but disliked him on an intuitive level.

How would a formal-final dualist answer the above five questions?

The principal difference between thought control dualism and form-final dualism is that on the former account, the soul can interact with the brain and initiate neural processes, while on the latter account, the soul does not make neurons in the brain move: the soul explains the “what” and the “why” of a voluntary human action, but not the “how.” Thus thought control dualism, like substance dualism, would attempt to identify locations in the brain which are still capable of interacting with the rational soul (whose choices, like its acts of understanding, are disembodied acts), whereas formal-final dualism, which rejects such an interactionist account, would attempt to identify those actions performed by split-brain patients which still manifest rationality (and hence are morally praiseworthy or blameworthy), on an operational level – i.e. by performing relevant tests, such as carefully probing the patient’s stated reasons for his/her actions.

Bearing this in mind, we can answer the five questions above from the perspective of the formal-final dualist, as follows:

1. In the case of the man who attacked his wife with his left hand (which is controlled by the right hemisphere) while simultaneously trying to protect her with his right arm (which is controlled by the left hemisphere), both acts are attributable to different levels of the soul, as each human being embodies a psychic hierarchy. However, the action that should be counted as rational (and hence morally evaluable) is the one that the man himself can give a reason for, both before and after performing the act (this last condition is vitally important, in order to prevent confabulation, where patients make up reasons to cover their embarrassment over sudden bodily movements of theirs which they are unable to explain).

2. If one hemisphere knows something that the other hemisphere doesn’t, then a formal-final dualist would say that the soul knows it, but not in a manner which is fully integrated with the entire body. Recall that for a formal-final dualist, the soul is essentially the form of the body. If the form is badly damaged, in a way that affects cognitive functions, then the patient’s awareness may be localized, rather than spread over the global brain.

3. In the case of the patient whose left hemisphere didn’t believe in God but whose right hemisphere did, a formal-final dualist would try to ascertain which stated belief was properly integrated into the patient’s life. For example, if the patient made a habit of praying every night and going to church on Sundays, then that would be a good reason to take seriously the right hemisphere’s avowal that it still believed in God, notwithstanding the left hemisphere’s professed atheism. Deeds speak louder than words.

4. There may be different levels of the soul on which Paul S.’s soul wants to be a draftsman and an automobile racer, but the one that deserves to be called most authentically Paul S.’s wish is the one which he doggedly pursues over a period of several years, as people do when undertaking long-term rational plans.

5. Regarding President Nixon, it’s very hard for a formal-final dualist to ascertain what a split brain patient’s feelings were towards a politician, unless that patient had devoted a fair bit of time towards getting Nixon elected – or alternatively, ejected from office. In the absence of such rational, goal-oriented behavior, a formal-final dualist might be inclined to reject both hemispheres’ professed likes and dislikes as mere preferences, as opposed to rational choices. Of course, if Paul S. was able to say why he liked Nixon, than that kind of behavior would count as evidence, but only if it cohered with the rest of his political views. Since Paul S. was only eleven when Le Doux, Wilson and Gazzaniga wrote their famous article about him in 1977, some skepticism is warranted. (His views now would of course count as evidence, as well.)

In this post, I have tried to answer KeithS’s questions about split brain patients from the perspective of three distinct varieties of dualism. I shall leave it there, and let readers judge for themselves between these versions of dualism. What I have attempted to show, however, is that split brain patients do not pose an insoluble problem – or even a particularly pressing one – for believers in an immaterial soul.

Readers wanting to learn more about the history of how Christian and other dualistic philosophers tackled the problem of split brain patients may like to consult Minds Divided: Science, Spirituality, and the Split Brain in American Thought by Stephen E. Wald (ProQuest LLC, ISBN-13: 2940032034322, eISBN-13: 9780549633204), some of which can be viewed online here).

Comments
Hi Elizabeth, Thank you for your post (#96). You argue that one cannot tell whether a sequence is random or not simply by looking at it. I would reply by distinguishing between causal randomness (a diversity of outputs, without a cause) and statistical randomness (an absence of bias in the outputs). I quite agree with you that if we look at a finite string of 0's and 1's, we cannot tell how it was generated. However, we can test that string for bias, and quantify how likely it is that an unbiased source would generate a string like that. If the likelihood is sufficiently high, we will credit the claim that the string is statistically random. What quantum physics tells us is that down at the micro level, statistical randomness prevails. However, quantum physics says nothing about causal randomness. It cannot tell us, for instance, whether the statistically random sequence of measurements (say, 0's and 1's) associated with a given particle was actually generated by some celestial pseudo-random generator invented by God, or whether it is truly uncaused. I prefer the former hypothesis. As for the macro level, quantum physics does not tell us that this level is random in either sense of the word. Hence I am inclined to believe that non-random macro states can generate statistically random micro sequences. You then write:
OK, let's suppose that the mind controls the organism, including the brain, and it does so at the quantum level, by, for example, tipping an ion a little nearer, or a little further away, from an ion channel in a neuron, thus infinitesimally affecting how near that neuron is to firing, and thus, Butterfly-In-Peking, like, potentially sending a neural cascade down one path, resulting in one decision, rather than a different path. And it can do so based on reason – presumably based on information from the environment, and some kind of foreknowledge of what the consequences of the two competing actions are likely to be. In what sense, does it differ, then, from the organism itself doing the same thing, but by supra-quantum means? It has the information; it has the reasoning capacity; what does it lack that requires this extra entity that tips it one way or the other? Or, to put it differently, what does this extra entity have that the rest of the organism doesn't?
That's a good question. You're asking why we need a non-physical X to bring about top-down causation, where the macro somehow acts upon the micro while preserving its statistical randomness. Actually, we don't need a non-physical X for that. I'm quite willing to grant that some kind of top-down causation occurs in all living things - even bacteria. What I would hold, however, is that rational top-down causation requires a non-physical operation by a person, acting on his/her brain. And my reason for holding that is that the brain - or for that matter, any physical system - is simply not capable of instantiating the kinds of abstract concepts that human beings do. (Ask yourself this: what's the neurological difference between the concept of "having 999 sides" and that of "having 1,000 sides" (which may both employ the same mental image), or between the Bronsted-Lowry concept of an acid and the Lewis concept of an acid, or between the universal concept of "true" and that of "false"?) That's my reason for positing an extra-corporeal activity (but not an extra-corporeal agent, as I am not a substance dualist like Eccles). I hope that helps.vjtorley
July 29, 2013
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Querius:
Chaotic behaviors have been observed and studied in many scientific fields. The reason that you don’t see any correlation is because you don’t understand Chaos theory. You’re grimly trying to hold on to determinism in the face of all recent scientific evidence to the contrary.
I don't hold to determinism on philosophical grounds, I believe in determinism because OBSERVATION highly suggests determinism (at least on the matter at discussion, which is a correlation between backgrounds and choices). The one ignoring contrary evidence is yourself. We can't both be right, and observational evidence clearly indicates YOU are on the wrong side, not me. You're hiding behind QM and chaos theory because on those small scales things are chaotic and so free will *might* have a place in there. But you can't hide from higher level observations that prove that such chaos does not have the effect you want it to have in real life experience. As long as there's powerful evidence of a higher level correlation between backgrounds and choices, all your arguments from chaos just FAIL. They fail because they can't explain this higher level correlation. In other words, when we're studying a correlation between backgrounds and choices, chaos theory just can't explain this correlation, maybe because choices DON'T BEHAVE LIKE A CHAOTIC SYSTEM AT THE MACRO LEVEL. My evidence: Observations of a clear high-level correlation. Your "evidence": reliance on a theory that may not even applicable. Who's ignoring the empirical evidence here? Not me!
This is getting hopeless.
I agree. If you're going to sustain you "free will is real" belief, you must ACCOUNT for the correlation between background and choices eventually, but I don't see you accounting for it anywhere in your comments, you just put the chaos theory strawman to avoid it. You haven't addressed it not even once. If you can't account for it, you already lost the argument. I'll answer your pure water question when you account for the correlation between background and choices (highly or totally suggestive of determinism) in the context of chaos (which you claim is not deterministic when applied to choices).Proton
July 29, 2013
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Hi ericB, Thank you for your posts (#90, 92, 98). I hadn't heard of Miaphysitism before, so I looked it up in Wikipedia. Its central claim appears to be as follows (emphases mine):
The distinction of this stance was that the incarnate Christ has one nature, but that nature is still of both a divine character and a human character, and retains all the characteristics of both.
I agree with you that we need to go back to Scripture in resolving Christological controversies, because even if the exact philosophical terms used in dogmatic formulations are not to be found in Scripture, the truths they express are nevertheless based on those contained in Scripture. On a whim, I decided to consult the Tome of Pope Leo I, which was originally written as a letter to Flavian, the bishop of Constantinople, in 449 A.D., and subsequently read aloud to the Council of Chalcedon in 451 A.D., where it was received with great acclaim. I found these passages very telling:
So the proper character of both natures was maintained and came together in a single person. Lowliness was taken up by majesty, weakness by strength, mortality by eternity. To pay off the debt of our state, invulnerable nature was united to a nature that could suffer; so that in a way that corresponded to the remedies we needed, one and the same mediator between God and humanity the man Christ Jesus, could both on the one hand die and on the other be incapable of death.... ...Each nature kept its proper character without loss; and just as the form of God does not take away the form of a servant, so the form of a servant does not detract from the form of God.... ...Whilst remaining pre-existent, he begins to exist in time. The Lord of the universe veiled his measureless majesty and took on a servant's form. The God who knew no suffering did not despise becoming a suffering man, and, deathless as he is, to be subject to the laws of death.... There is nothing unreal about this oneness, since both the lowliness of the man and the grandeur of the divinity are in mutual relation. As God is not changed by showing mercy, neither is humanity devoured by the dignity received. The activity of each form is what is proper to it in communion with the other: that is, the Word performs what belongs to the Word, and the flesh accomplishes what belongs to the flesh. One of these performs brilliant miracles; the other sustains acts of violence.... So, if I may pass over many instances, it does not belong to the same nature to weep out of deep-felt pity for a dead friend, and to call him back to life again at the word of command, once the mound had been removed from the four-day-old grave; or to hang on the cross and, with day changed into night, to make the elements tremble; or to be pierced by nails and to open the gates of paradise for the believing thief. Likewise, it does not belong to the same nature to say, "I and the Father are one," and to say, "The Father is greater than I." For although there is in the Lord Jesus Christ a single person who is of God and of man, the insults shared by both have their source in one thing, and the glory that is shared in another. For it is from us that he gets a humanity which is less than the Father; it is from the Father that he gets a divinity which is equal to the Father.
What Pope Leo is arguing here, with obvious Scriptural allusions (Philippians 2:6-11; John 11:38; John 11:43; Luke 23:44-45; Matthew 27:51-53; Luke 23:43; John 14:9; John 14:28) is that contradictory predicates cannot be ascribed to one and the same subject. One and the same X cannot be both born in time and timeless, or both mortal and immortal, or both less than the Father and equal to the Father. That would violate the Law of Non-Contradiction. Consequently there must be two X's - in other words, two natures. Miaphysitism holds that Christ has one nature which has both a divine character and a human character, and which retains all the characteristics of both. But if the characteristics of divine nature and human nature are contradictory, then it makes no sense to ascribe them to the same nature. It is for that reason that I find Miaphysitism unintelligible. The Council of Chalcedon declared in 451 A.D. that it "stands opposed to those who imagine a mixture or confusion between the two natures of Christ." This, it seems to me, is what Miaphysitism does. I therefore find it puzzling that the historian John Meyendorff could argue that the theology of the Eastern Orthodox Church combines the dyophysite position expressed by Chalcedon with the miaphysite position of St. Cyril, who spoke of the "one (mia) nature of the Word of God incarnate." St. Cyril, who died seven years before the Council of Chalcedon, taught that in Jesus there was "One Nature united out of two" - a position which (if taken at face value) is at odds with that of the Council. Cyril's theology seems to have been imprecise, but he can be excused as he was writing before the Church had thrashed the issue out. I had another look at 1 Corinthians 14, and finally found the passage you were talking about: 1 Corinthians 14:14-15:
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit (pneuma) prays, but my mind (nous) is unfruitful. 15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding.
As you correctly point out, this is different from the body-soul(psyche)-spirit division of 1 Thessalonians 5:23. I think what the foregoing verses establish is the existence of two distinct kinds of consciousness in man: spiritual (i.e. super-rational) and mental (i.e. rational). However, I wouldn't go so far as to say that St. Paul is asserting that there are two distinct parts. Still, it's an interesting point, all the same. You then argue:
If you could have more than one of something called M [i.e. mind - VJT], and if you simultaneously still have only one of something called S [i.e. spirit], then M and S [i.e. mind and spirit] cannot be synonyms for the same thing. They must have distinct references... If there is the possibility that a split-brain operation may result in some unequal division of mind into two minds and two streams of consciousness (even if unequal), while there is yet only one spirit (or "soul"), then it would seem to follow that spirit (or "soul" as used here) cannot be synonymous with the conscious human mind.
What the foregoing argument does show is that "spirit" (which is one) cannot be simplistically equated with "consciousness" (which is to some extent split in two after a brain bisection). However, this doesn't support the notion that pneuma and nous are two distinct parts of man, as you seem to hold, on the basis of 1 Corinthians 14:14-15. For nous is by definition rational, and as we saw above, only the left hemisphere can properly be described as rational after a brain bisection. The right hemisphere is conscious and even (to some extent) self-aware, but nevertheless sub-rational. However, the pneuma that St. Paul speaks of is super-rational, so it cannot be identified with the consciousness of the right hemisphere. What St. Paul does show, however, is that pneuma cannot be equated with "rational consciousness", as man has a super-rational faculty of knowledge, about which we know very little. Finally, I was interested in your remark that "viewed from outside of time (i.e. God's perspective) or from the future looking back with complete knowledge of events, every proposed event always has a probability of either 1 (it happened) or 0 (it didn't happen)." That sounds obvious enough, but recently some philosophers and theologians have called that assumption (the necessity of the past) into question. You might like to have a look at this article on foreknowledge and free will in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, which questions the notion that the past is necessary. I'll quote a brief excerpt:
What do we mean when we say that the past, the strict past, is necessary? When people say "There is no use crying over spilled milk," they presumably mean that there is nothing anybody can do now about the spilled milk; the spilling of the milk is outside the realm of our causal control. But it is not at all clear that pastness per se puts something outside the realm of our causal control. Rather, it is pastness in conjunction with the metaphysical law that causes must precede their effects. If we decided that effects can precede their causes, we would no longer speak of the necessity of the past. So the necessity of the past is the principle that past events are outside the class of causable events. There is a temporal asymmetry in causability because everything causable is in the future. But some of the future is non-causable as well. Whether or not determinism is true, there are some events in the future that are causally necessary. If a future event E is necessary, it is causable, and not E is not causable. If the necessity of the past is the non-causability of the past, it seems a bit odd to pick out the class of propositions about the past as having an allegedly distinct kind of necessity since some of the future has that same kind of necessity. This reveals a deeper problem in the idea of the necessity of the past. The modes of causable and not causable do not correspond to the standard modes of necessary, possible, impossible, and contingent. The actual past is not causable, but alternative pasts are not causable either. If it is too late to make something have happened, it is too late to make something else have happened instead. So if a proposition p about the past is not causable, not-p is also not causable. This is a disanalogy with the logical modalities since if p is necessary, not-p is the contrary of necessary; it is impossible. Another disanalogy between necessity and non-causability is that if p is necessary, p is possible, but if p is not causable, there is no category parallel to the possible that applies to p.
The author of the article, Professor Linda Zagzebski, suggests that we "give up the so-called necessity of the past and replace it with the non-causability of the past." Food for thought.vjtorley
July 29, 2013
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Well, most electric currents in the body are ionic currents. They don't exactly give us "the required electricity" - but it's changes in trans-membrane potentials that determine whether a neuron "fires" or not, i.e. whether a wave of depolorisation flows down the axon to release neurotransmitters at the down stream synapse, so they are crucial to how our brains work. In a split brain patient, the axons of the neurons in each hemisphere that synapse onto the neurons in the other are severed, so no information can pass from one hemisphere to the other via that route. However, it is possible that the electric fields generated on one side can affect the polarisation of neurons on the other. Not sure how that might help. But the point I was making to vjtorley was that at the molecular level, whether an ion actually passes through an ion channel, resulting in polarisation change, depends on where it is relative to the channel, and that might depend on quantum level events.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 29, 2013
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Ions are what is used to give our bodies the required electricity. Sodium and potassium ions, mostly.Joe
July 29, 2013
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That's why I mentioned ions at 96 :)Elizabeth B Liddle
July 29, 2013
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No ions, no free electrons, no conductor.Joe
July 29, 2013
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No ions either...Joe
July 29, 2013
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Pure water doesn't have any free electrons to carry the current.Joe
July 29, 2013
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And why is that, Joe?Elizabeth B Liddle
July 29, 2013
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Querius- Do you know how you can tell if you are holding a glass of pure water? Pure water will NOT conduct electricty. It is all the dissolved minerals in water that allows it to conduct electricity.Joe
July 29, 2013
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I absolutely agree, Eric. And that's the basis for regarding a probability as a form of "information" - traditionally by taking the negative base 2 log! But the answer doesn't tell you how much information the sequence "contains" - which would be meaningless. It tells you how much information you'd need to be able to predict the sequence - specify it - with 100% certainty.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 29, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle (I think) @96:
In other words, two identical sequences can have very different probabilities, and can vary from being highly random (very low probability given the generative process) to being fully determined, as in my second example. In other words, probability, or randomness, isn’t a property of a sequence but of the sequence given its generative process.
I quite agree that probability is not a property of the sequence itself. A different way to consider probability is as a measure of ignorance vs. knowledge. For example, viewed from outside of time (i.e. God's perspective) or from the future looking back with complete knowledge of events, every proposed event always has a probability of either 1 (it happened) or 0 (it didn't happen). Suppose I reach into a jar with three differently colored marbles (red, green, and blue) and grab one marble without looking. Suppose you do the same, and Dr. Torley also grabs a marble. What is the probability that my marble is red? And so on. In reality, that is with complete information, the answers are either 1 or 0. With partial knowledge we would assign probabilities, based upon what we know. Note however, that what one person knows may be different from what another person knows. Knowing nothing more, I would assign my probability of red to 1 in 3. But if Dr. Torley peeks at his marble and sees green, then he would set my probability to 1 in 2. Someone who observed the marbles remaining after my pick would assign either 1 or 0, depending on whether the red was still in the jar after my pick. Similar examples could be made for predictive probabilities for future events based on knowledge vs. ignorance of the relevant factors and influences. Knowing more (or less) changes the probability, with complete knowledge collapsing into 1 or 0.ericB
July 29, 2013
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Oops, messed up the quote tags. Hope you can sort out who said what!Elizabeth B Liddle
July 29, 2013
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Hi Vincent - apologies for the delayed response:
Hi Elizabeth, Thank you for your post. You write:
…[P]utting a bit of stochastic noise into a decision-making system (either internally, within the brain, or externally, in the form of a coin-toss) may make it more “free” but in so doing makes it less “willed”. That’s my problem with the concept of “libertarian free will” – I don’t think it’s coherent as a concept – if it is unconstrained, then it is no longer will – if it is highly constrained, it is no longer free.
What you are assuming here is that the noise in the brain of a free human agent is nothing but noise.
Actually, I wasn't. I think the "noise" is rather important, and may even consist of some "quantum" noise.
At the micro level, it may be statistically random (like a coin that is equally likely to come up with heads and tails), but at the macro level there may be an overarching pattern that is decided by the agent. An example I often give is that of two random sequences: 1 0 0 0 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 Now suppose I impose the macro requirement: keep the columns whose sum equals 1, and discard the rest. I now have: 1 0 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 1 0 Each row is still random, but I have imposed a non-random macro-level constraint.
I think this is a mistake, Vincent. I don't think you can determine whether a pattern is "random" by looking at it. I don't know if either of your original patterns is "random" nor can I tell unless you tell me how you generated it. I can tell you how probable they'd be under certain generative processes, but I cannot tell you what those processes were. To give an example I've posted before: This sequence was randomly generated, using the random number generator in Excel: 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 This was not: 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 I simply copied and pasted it from the sequence above. The first had a probability of 2^-10. The second had a probability of 1. In other words, two identical sequences can have very different probabilities, and can vary from being highly random (very low probability given the generative process) to being fully determined, as in my second example. In other words, probability, or randomness, isn't a property of a sequence but of the sequence given its generative process. And your third sequence is a result of natural selection, and has a probability of 1, given your first two. In other words your third sequence is not "random" at all.
I think that’s how my will works when I make a choice: our minds select a specific macro-level pattern, but at the micro level, there is still a lack of bias. I don’t think there’s anything in the laws of quantum physics prohibiting the existence of such macro-level patterns as the one I have described. Free will makes perfect sense, if you allow for the possibility of top-down causation. Finally, I would distinguish between liberty of spontaneity (which may be found in many animals – think of Buridan’s ass) and liberty of choice, which is unique to rational agents. A spontaneous selection between equally desirable alternatives is not the same thing as a choice, as it lacks the element of reason.
OK, let's suppose that the mind controls the organism, including the brain, and it does so at the quantum level, by, for example, tipping an ion a little nearer, or a little further away, from an ion channel in a neuron, thus infinitessimally affecting how near that neuron is to firing, and thus, Butterfly-In-Peking, like, potentially sending a neural cascade down one path, resulting in one decision, rather than a different path. And it can do so based on reason - presumably based on information from the environment, and some kind of foreknowledge of what the consequences of the two competing actions are likely to be. In what sense, does it differ, then, from the organisms itself doing the same thing, but by supra-quantum means? It has the information; it has the reasoning capacity; what does it lack that requires this extra entity that tips it one way or the other? Or, to put it differently, what does this extra entity have that the rest of the organism doesn't?
Elizabeth B Liddle
July 29, 2013
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Proton,
I don’t see in which way you resemble choices to chaos. You’re just keeping yourself in the mathematics without relying in observation at all.
Chaotic behaviors have been observed and studied in many scientific fields. The reason that you don't see any correlation is because you don't understand Chaos theory. You're grimly trying to hold on to determinism in the face of all recent scientific evidence to the contrary. This is getting hopeless. Read the literature. Now, for the fourth time, please don't evade my simple question:
Do you believe that there is such a thing as “pure water”?
Come to think of it, you sound like keiths. Am I right?Querius
July 28, 2013
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vjtorley:
What you are assuming here is that the noise in the brain of a free human agent is nothing but noise. At the micro level, it may be statistically random (like a coin that is equally likely to come up with heads and tails), but at the macro level there may be an overarching pattern that is decided by the agent.
What you're assuming here is that de DECISION from the agent is the result of free will. But if choices are reasoned, then where does the information on which that reasoning is based on comes from? Leaving that aside, you posted this:
Now particular operations are contingent, and therefore in such matters the judgment of reason may follow opposite courses, and is not determinate to one.
What I disagree with is the idea that judgment/reasoning is indeterminate. It seems to me that you believe that when a person is faced with choice A or B, people can go either way and nothing determines that other than pure free will. What I argue is precisely that evidence indicates that such thing is FALSE: People with certain backgrounds are more inlined to choose B and people with a different background are more inclined to choose A. If we see people with certain backgrounds judge things differently, what can we say about the origin of judgment? Wouldn't be rational to assume, as we look at the evidence and just observe the world, that judgement and reasoning depends on background? This is common sense to me and I fail to see why is so hard for free will advocates to understand: If the outcome of choices is observed to be highly, if not totally correlated to the backgrounds of the agents, on WHICH GROUND do free will advocates believe that choices are still free? (other than religious commitment) It doesn't make sense to me, can you explain vjtorley how do you personally view the correlation I'm talking about and how do you put free will in there in a way that doesn't contradict observation? If you say people can choose between A and B freely, then what do you think when observation shows that people with certain background X choose A a lot more often and people with background Y choose B a lot more often? Doesn't this show that judgement is predetermined to a certain outcome (choice A or B) depending on if your background is X or Y? How does free will make sense to you in such contradicting situation? Are people from backgrounds X and Y really free to choose?Proton
July 28, 2013
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Thanks for your comment Elizabeth, very clear ideas.Proton
July 28, 2013
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Interesting: The mind vs. spirit distinction seems implied by some of the statements in Dr. Torley's article above. In short, it comes down to this.
If you could have more than one of something called M, and if you simultaneously still have only one of something called S, then M and S cannot be synonyms for the same thing. They must have distinct references. Even if the former is plural, yet the latter is singular.
Consider first the proposals that a split-brain operation may result in the division of the mind into two minds, two streams of consciousness. (I am not taking a position on whether that is truly what happens or not -- merely looking at the implications.) Emphasis added is mine, though sometimes also emphasized in the quotation as given above.
I [Sir John Eccles] would agree with DeWitt’s (1975) interpretation of the situation after commissurotomy:
Both minor and major hemispheres are conscious in that they both, no doubt, have the basic phenomenal awareness of perceptions, sensations, etc. And they both have minds
...There is the difficulty in controlling the movements emanating from the activity of the right hemisphere with its associated mind.
Eccles died in 1997. More recent studies have shown that both hemispheres of the brain are extensively involved in self-recognition, ...
Alain Morin: "My position is that two unequal streams of consciousness (i.e. self-awareness) emerge out of the transection of the forebrain commissures…. "
Again, I am not advocating for a particular view of these proposals. What I'm pointing out are the implications of combining this idea with questions on what "the soul" (always singular) is believing or doing, which is the core of this column. All discussion about the soul has assumed that the soul remains singular despite any split to the brain and the mind/consciousness. As I understand the article, I would assume that in this context, "soul" is being used in a sense that is interchangeable with "spirit", though I am open to correction if that is a misunderstanding. If there is the possibility that a split-brain operation may result in some unequal division of mind into two minds and two streams of consciousness (even if unequal), while there is yet only one spirit (or "soul"), then it would seem to follow that spirit (or "soul" as used here) cannot be synonymous with the conscious human mind. When we ask and seek to answer the questions mentioned above about which hemisphere and which mind/stream of consciousness the soul/spirit primarily or exclusively interfaces with, it would seem to me that doing so implicitly acknowledges a mind vs. spirit distinction.ericB
July 28, 2013
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Querius:
Chaos is materialistic, but it’s unpredictable. Deviations and entanglements at the quantum level allow for the existence and intervention of “free will” and God . . . with dramatic results.
Leaving aside that by saying "chaos is materialistic" you're addmiting that choices are the result of materialism (and not an inmaterial soul), what does "dramatic" mean? Unpredictable? You're trying to avoid or minimize the obvious correlation between background and choices seen everywhere and hiding behind quantum indetermination to give room to free will. QM might be unpredictable at quantum level, but on the macro level it's not because an obvious correlation exists between backgrounds and choices, so your entire argument is meaningless because you'd have to account for this correlation to sustain it, and you can't. I don't see in which way you resemble choices to chaos. You're just keeping yourself in the mathematics without relying in observation at all. When I say: "we can get pretty close to 100% the more we investigate someone’s background and the more details we pick up." I mean that when we find apparent exceptions to correlations, such exceptions can be reduced as we investigate more, because the more we investigate about someone's background the more we can find evidence of elements in such backgrounds constraining a specific choice. It's not a matter of mathematics or chaotic theory, it's a matter of OBSERVATION. Let me give an example so you understand my position in the practical way it should be understood: (quoted for easier reading)
For example, if we find, in an experiment, that 92 out of 100 kids (92%) who grew up in a familiy of thieves ended up stealing at some point in their lives (an existing correlation between the kids' backgrounds and their choices to steal), then free will advocates might say that the remaining 8 kids that never stole even under such background prove that backgrounds don't always determine choices. However, if we investigate a bit more the backgrounds of those kids representing the "exceptions" (those 8) we will probably find that the reason those kids never stole was because there were EXTRA ELEMENTS in their backgrounds that conditioned them to not steal and were not taken into account when the first correlation was made, for example, some of those kids had friends from rather good families and others had close members of their families (for example, an older brother or father) arrested, things that were not part of the backgrounds of the other 92 kids. If we now take into account the details added from the experiment, we will find, for example, that 89 out of 92 kids who grew up in a family of thieves where close members of the family were never arrested stole eventually in their lives, making the correlation close to a 97%. If we study a bit more of the background of those 3 kids that didn't steal even if no one in their family was arrested, we might find that the reason they never stole was because they had to take care of a baby brother/sister from a young age and the stealing was made by their older brothers. So when we add this final details to the correlation, we will find that 89 out 89 of kids (100%) who grew up in a family of thieves, where close members of the family were never arrested and were the kids didn't have to take care of any younger sibling, eventually stole in their lives. ALL OF THEM. THIS EXPERIMENT shows how, from a "less than 100%" correlation between backgrounds and choices, we can get to an 100% correlation, simply by studying someone's background in more detail. This shows why "exceptions" are an artifact of incomplete data and can be eliminated by adding further details to the background under study. It also shows the clear correlation between a specific background (family of thieves + close members never arrested + never had to take care of a baby brother or sister) and a specific choice (steal at least once in their lives). A similar experiment can be made with kids from a wealthy family and the same choice of stealing. We might find that 98% of kids under such situation never stole in their lives, and the 2% that did had something in their backgrounds that the other 98% didn't have: Friends from darker backgrounds. In any case, this type of experiments show cleary that free will is never involved anywhere and common sense, after observing these results, would lead to believing that free will is a religious fairy tale.
Now explain to me WHERE does chaos enter in the experiment above so your entire argument makes any sense (I won't answer your pure water question until you show that it's relevant for anything). Under such blunt evidence of how our backgrounds determine our choices, where's room left for free will other than in the imagination of Christians?Proton
July 28, 2013
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Thanks vjtorley (@89)! You are correct that I did misunderstand you. Sorry about that. I did look a bit into the links you posted regarding terminology and historical camps, and to connected links. Although you brought it up, I would not consider the term Monothelitism to be appropriate or applicable, since that term includes the position of Eutychianism, which I would reject. I would also reject Nestorianism. What I hold to firmly (as I've already indicated throughout my posts) is that Jesus is fully human as well as fully divine, without compromise to either truth. You wrote:
Rather, it’s the notion that Jesus had one spirit that I find theologically troubling, as that flies in the face of the Christian tradition.
Your statement implies the assumption that there is one and only one Christian tradition, but that is not true. When it comes down to the fine-grained distinctions between Miaphysitism, which is the tradition of the Oriental Orthodox churches and Dyophysitism, which is the tradition of the Chalcedonian churches, I am willing to be persuaded one way or the other. What catches my attention foremost is that these fine-grained distinctions of position seem to turn on subtle nuances of terms that even in the original Greek had potential overlap of meaning.
"Over recent decades, leaders of the various branches of the Church have spoken about the differences between their respective christologies as not being as extreme as was traditionally held. John Meyendorff, an historian of this period of Church history, held that the official teaching of the Eastern Orthodox Church is not expressed by Chalcedon alone, but by "Chalcedon plus Cyril" – i.e., the dyophysite position expressed by Chalcedon, plus Cyril's miaphysite expression quoted above in its Orthodox interpretation – with the former attempting to express the inexpressible from one side (the dyophysite site) and the latter doing the same from the miaphysite side, both approaches being necessary and neither sufficient by itself." "Much has been said about the difficulties in understanding the Greek technical terms used in these controversies. The main words are ousia (?????, 'substance'), physis (?????, 'nature'), hypostasis (?????????) and prosopon (????????, 'person'). Even in Greek, their meanings can overlap somewhat. These difficulties became even more exaggerated when these technical terms were translated into other languages. In Syriac, physis was translated as ky?nâ and hypostasis was qnômâ. However, in the Persian Church, or the East Syriac tradition, qnoma was taken to mean nature, thereby confounding the issue further. The shades of meaning are even more blurred between these words, and they could not be used in such a philosophical way as their Greek counterparts." Excerpts from here
So I would have to question how well we even understand what we are talking about at the level of these distinctions. It should be motivation for caution about being overly emphatic. While I am willing to be persuaded either way, I don't consider the statement, "this view is a tradition", to carry significant decisive weight. 1. Because that statement can be made of different positions, both different current positions and different positions across changes over time, and 2. Because humans are notorious for repeatedly creating traditions that are wrong and that set aside what God has revealed. Jesus pointed it out about the Jews of His time. (See Matt. 15:1-9; Mark 7:1-13.) We see this again in the need for the Protestant Reformation and the Catholic Counter-Reformation, and we can see it yet again in traditions that Protest churches have established since the Reformation. There are no churches that are immune to this human tendency. Therefore, what would be persuasive to me is to see where Scripture actually tells us something that clearly points toward one rather than the other. (For example, we see Paul clearly distinguishing between what the human spirit knows and what the human mind does not know in 1 Cor. 14. That is a clear, direct and explicit distinction. Thus, the human spirit and the human mind are necessarily distinct.) If we cannot find such clear indications in Scripture regarding this other fine-grained distinction about the nature of Jesus, then I submit that we would be entering into differences about words that go beyond what Scripture has clearly revealed. Thanks, Dr. Torley, for your patient input.ericB
July 28, 2013
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Hi ericB, Thank you for your response. I think you misunderstand me. I don't have any problem ascribing two spirits to Jesus (although I would prefer to say two minds and two wills - one Divine and one human). Rather, it's the notion that Jesus had one spirit that I find theologically troubling, as that flies in the face of the Christian tradition. You might like to have a look at these articles on Monothelitism: here and here.vjtorley
July 28, 2013
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vjtorley @84, Thanks for your response! I'm glad you understand my position perhaps a bit better. I would suggest that by assuming there is a meaningful distinction of kind or nature between a human spirit and the divine spirit of Jesus, you are creating a false dilemma, one from which it seems to me your own position would also have problems. You recall that I indicated earlier:
Meanwhile, I could ask you this question. If you were to reject the distinction between mind and spirit, and suppose that mind=spirit, then by your own argument (not mine) @70, wouldn’t you be saying that because the mind of Jesus is eternal (and divine), then (by the same reasoning you posted) He could not be fully and truly human, since it was not a merely human mind with a beginning? OR, one could still ask the same question substituting “spirit” for “mind”, i.e. human spirits are not eternal as is true for Jesus. However you describe Jesus, it is obvious that some aspect of His nature did not have a beginning, whereas the corresponding aspect of all other humans would have had a beginning. So I don’t see how you would escape the objection you raised.
Let me pose back to you your own argument with adjustments.
All right, let’s go with your [dualistic body/spirit] account of human nature. Here’s my problem with your account. 1. According to orthodox Christian theology, Jesus, in addition to having a Divine Nature (as God the Son), also had a fully human nature: he was a man like us in all things but sin (Hebrews 4:15). 2. If Jesus had a fully human nature, then He possessed all of the human parts that make up human nature. 3. On your account, human nature has [two] parts: a human body and a human spirit. 4. Therefore Jesus had a human spirit. 5. But you say Jesus had a Divine spirit: the eternal, uncreated Spirit of God. 6. So Jesus, on your account, [has two spirits]. In other words, it seems to me that your Jesus [falls into the same problem of having two spirits that you were so concerning previously about "some rather troubling theological questions"].
So I pose it to you again. How does your position avoid the "two spirits" problem?ericB
July 28, 2013
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Proton, I wrote, "nobody but God can know the outcome of your unpredictable free will." And you replied
Evidence says otherwise. We may not be able to predict with 100% certainty the outcome of a choice making process, however we can get pretty close to 100% the more we investigate someone’s background and the more details we pick up.
Wrong! You still don't comprehend Chaos. It's counter-intuitive, but extremely well researched, which is why I recommended James Gleick's book to you. The tiniest deviation in the initial conditions can have an ENORMOUS impact in outcome, and the "closer you get to 100%" as you put it, the MORE likely (not less likely) that you will get highly disparate results! For that reason, being "pretty close to 100%" is utterly useless when working within chaotic systems. You're also misrepresenting my argument. Chaos is materialistic, but it's unpredictable. Deviations and entanglements at the quantum level allow for the existence and intervention of "free will" and God . . . with dramatic results. I also noticed that for the second time you didn't answer my simple question, so I'll ask you a third time: Do you believe pure water exists or not? Answer:Querius
July 27, 2013
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Hi Proton, Thank you for your post. You write:
...[W]we can't escape from our constraints with reasoning because our reasoning was built with them inside. That's why our constraints are mostly invisible to us when we’re trying to reason regarding a choice, and that's because our constraints are part of the reasoning itself. In fact, without a background, a life experience, we wouldn't have reasoning at all. We can reason because we have a background on which we built such reasoning. That’s why no two people reason identically. If to make choices we need to reason, and our reasoning is the product of our background, then our choices are a product of our background.
It's one thing to argue that without a background of life experiences, we wouldn't have reasoning at all. It's quite another thing to infer (as you do) that our reasoning is the product of our background. That's a non sequitur. This is not the libertarian understanding of how reason works. Here's what Aquinas has to say on the issue:
...[M]an acts from judgment, because by his apprehensive power he judges that something should be avoided or sought. But because this judgment, in the case of some particular act, is not from a natural instinct, but from some act of comparison in the reason, therefore he acts from free judgment and retains the power of being inclined to various things. For reason in contingent matters may follow opposite courses, as we see in dialectic syllogisms and rhetorical arguments. Now particular operations are contingent, and therefore in such matters the judgment of reason may follow opposite courses, and is not determinate to one. And forasmuch as man is rational is it necessary that man have a free-will. (Summa Theologica, I, q. 83, art. 1.)
I hope that helps.vjtorley
July 27, 2013
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Hi Elizabeth, Thank you for your post. You write:
...[P]utting a bit of stochastic noise into a decision-making system (either internally, within the brain, or externally, in the form of a coin-toss) may make it more "free" but in so doing makes it less "willed". That's my problem with the concept of "libertarian free will" – I don't think it's coherent as a concept – if it is unconstrained, then it is no longer will – if it is highly constrained, it is no longer free.
What you are assuming here is that the noise in the brain of a free human agent is nothing but noise. At the micro level, it may be statistically random (like a coin that is equally likely to come up with heads and tails), but at the macro level there may be an overarching pattern that is decided by the agent. An example I often give is that of two random sequences: 1 0 0 0 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 Now suppose I impose the macro requirement: keep the columns whose sum equals 1, and discard the rest. I now have: 1 0 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 1 0 Each row is still random, but I have imposed a non-random macro-level constraint. I think that's how my will works when I make a choice: our minds select a specific macro-level pattern, but at the micro level, there is still a lack of bias. I don't think there's anything in the laws of quantum physics prohibiting the existence of such macro-level patterns as the one I have described. Free will makes perfect sense, if you allow for the possibility of top-down causation. Finally, I would distinguish between liberty of spontaneity (which may be found in many animals - think of Buridan's ass) and liberty of choice, which is unique to rational agents. A spontaneous selection between equally desirable alternatives is not the same thing as a choice, as it lacks the element of reason.vjtorley
July 27, 2013
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Hi ericB, Thank you for your post. I think I understand you now. All right, let's go with your body/mind/spirit account of human nature. Here's my problem with your account. 1. According to orthodox Christian theology, Jesus, in addition to having a Divine Nature (as God the Son), also had a fully human nature: he was a man like us in all things but sin (Hebrews 4:15). 2. If Jesus had a fully human nature, then He possessed all of the human parts that make up human nature. 3. On your account, human nature has three parts: a human body, a human mind and a human spirit. 4. Therefore Jesus had a human spirit. 5. But you say Jesus only had a Divine spirit: the eternal, uncreated Spirit of God. 6. So Jesus, on your account, lacks one of the human parts which make up human nature: namely, a human spirit. In other words, it seems to me that your Jesus is a human missing his highest part, conjoined to (or hypostatically united to) to the Spirit of God. You argue that this is not a problem, as the human spirit is made in the image of God anyway. But I would answer that anyone with a fully human nature must have all the parts that make up human nature, and they must be human parts. Otherwise what we have is not a human nature but a Divine-human amalgam: neither one thing nor the other. What Christians have traditionally maintained is that Jesus was both fully Divine and fully human. (The person of Christ is however Divine: God the Son.) I therefore conclude that if there is indeed a body/mind/spirit division in human nature, as you maintain (and as some of the Greek Fathers did in the fourth century), then Jesus must have had both a finite, created human spirit and a Divine, Uncreated Spirit. I would conclude by citing John 4:24: "God is a spirit." Although God is three persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), God is only one spirit.vjtorley
July 27, 2013
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Well, I think there is an underlying problem with the whole concept of "free will". If I really don't know which of two things to pick, I can "toss a coin" - literally, or by some other trick. That means, in effect, I am delegating my choice to something over which I have no control - some "random" event. We would not want to say that this was an exercise of "free will" - it is a conscious rejection of will at all, in favour of a system that is equally "free" to choose one thing rather than the other. So we could say the outcome is free but not willed. Now let's say that we think we would prefer the strawberry but we are not sure. So we still "toss a coin" but weight it, so that the heads-for-strawberry is more likely than tails-for-vanilla. Now we have exercised more volition - will - but the choice is still "free" - the coin could still come down tails. So as the degree of volition goes up, the degrees of freedom come down. If we know we want strawberry, we could use a two-headed coin. Now there is no freedom for the coin (it has to come down heads) but the decision is totally willed. In other words, putting a bit of stochastic noise into a decision-making system (either internally, within the brain, or externally, in the form of a coin-toss) may make it more "free" but in so doing makes it less "willed". That's my problem with the concept of "libertarian free will" - I don't think it's coherent as a concept - if it is unconstrained, then it is no longer will - if it is highly constrained, it is no longer free. A better conceptualisation, in my view, is that the more degrees of freedom a decision-making system has (i.e. the more possible outcomes), the freer it is, and the more inputs and re-inputs the system allows (and re-inputs would make it chaotic, with or without a stochastic component), the more willed it potentially is - because it enables the decision to be based on good information as to possible outcomes, and to compare those outcomes with an intended goal. And choosing that intended goal would, I suggest, work in the same way. Thus, while I do not find the concept of an "immaterial soul" coherent (how does it change decisions without interacting with matter, and if it interacts with matter, in what sense is it immaterial?), I do find the concept of a "material" "soul" coherent - I think that the thing we call "I" embraces our whole decision-making system, including our motor and sensory systems, which are responsible for both seeking further information and enacting decisions. It can't be "reduced" to any part of the system (eyes alone; brain alone; hands alone) or even to the unassembled parts. The soul, I'd say, is a property of the whole, not of its parts.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 27, 2013
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Elizabeth:
I don’t think myself that the existence of free will depends on whether a system is deterministic or not.
Can you expand on that a bit? Can choices be part of an indeterminate system and yet not be free?Proton
July 27, 2013
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Querius:
Think of it this way, pick a point on an XY plane. Notice that the Cartesian coordinates are irrational numbers. (..) Now, try to pick that same point again. You will always fail. Even knowing that the coordinates are (pi,pi) doesn’t help you. And you would *not* be able to tell if some outside intelligence nudged the values in the trillionth place, but the outcome would be different.
You're basing your entire argument in that defining someone's background is the SAME as picking a point in a plane which coordinates are irrational numbers? Leaving aside that you provided no evidence for that claim, you're asserting that people's backgrounds can't be known with 100% accuracy, and therefore we can't be sure if backgrounds do indeed determine choices. So basically your argument is "We can't be sure if free will is false with 100% certainty, so I believe it's true". I hope you see how weak this argument is, especially because we see everywhere a correlation between background and choices, so in the absense of 100% certainty, following the evidence to find the most probable cause (the cause which provides the highest % of certainty) is common sense, and common sense dictates free will is an illusion.
nobody but God can know the outcome of your unpredictable free will.
Evidence says otherwise. We may not be able to predict with 100% certainty the outcome of a choice making process, however we can get pretty close to 100% the more we investigate someone's background and the more details we pick up. So even if we can't be 100% certain that free will is false, we still have VERY strong supporting evidence that it is indeed false in maybe like 95% (as an example). Believing in free will depends on ignoring that 95% positive evidence against it and sticking to a "5%" that's not even conclusive due to the nature of a chaotic system, so it's completely against common sense. Yet you're argument fails for a completely different reason: If you're claiming that the correlation between backgrounds and choices is a chaotic system were initial conditions can't never be defined with 100% accuracy, then you are ALSO claiming that choices are the outcome of a materialistic system, which would imply that there's no inmaterial soul controlling our behaviour anyway. So in trying to prove my argument wrong you brought up the chaos theory, but in doing so you admitted the materialistic origin of choices. You see your contradiction? You can't believe free will is real and at the same time believe that choices are the result of a chaotic (materialistic) system! It doesn't matter if we, humans, can't define with 100% accuracy someone's background (we don't even need to to produce powerful evidence against free will). If behaviour is the result of a chaotic system, then it's source is materialistic, and so there's no inmaterial soul affecting it.Proton
July 27, 2013
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