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Do split-brain cases disprove the existence of an immaterial soul? (Part Two)

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In my last post, I discussed the problem of split-brain cases, which was first raised by KeithS in a post over at The Skeptical Zone titled, Split-brain patients and the dire implications for the soul (June 22, 2013). I began by distinguishing three varieties of dualism (leaving aside property dualism, whose inadequacies from a theistic standpoint have already been ably exposed by Professor William Dembski – see here and here), which I referred to as substance dualism, thought control dualism and formal-final dualism. I then examined the six assumptions used in KeithS’s split-brain argument from the perspective of each of these versions of dualism.

What is a split-brain operation?

Before I go on, I’d like to provide a brief scientific explanation of what a split-brain operation is. The information below is taken from a Web page created by the Psychology Department at Macalester College (bold emphases are mine):

In a normal brain, stimuli entering one hemisphere is rapidly communicated by way of the corpus callosum to the other hemisphere, so the brain functions as a unit. When the corpus callosum of an individual is severed, leaving a split brain, the two hemispheres cannot communicate. In some forms of epilepsy a seizure will start in one hemisphere, triggering a massive discharge of neurons through the corpus callosum and into the second hemisphere. In an effort to prevent such massive seizures in severe epileptics, neurosurgeons can surgically sever the corpus callosum, a procedure called a commissurotomy. If one side of the brain can no longer stimulate the other, the likelihood of severe epileptic seizures is greatly reduced.

Answering KeithS’s questions on split brain patients

In this post, I’d like to discuss and respond to KeithS’s reductio ad absurdum argument. He begins by posing three questions, based on actual cases of split-brain patients, described in the medical literature:

1. In the case of the man who attacked his wife with one arm and defended her with the other, what did the soul want to do? Is the soul guilty of attacking her? Does the soul get credit for defending her?

2. If the right hemisphere knows something that the left hemisphere doesn’t, then does the soul know it? What if it’s the other way around, with the left hemisphere knowing something that the right hemisphere doesn’t?

3. In the case of the patient whose left hemisphere didn’t believe in God but whose right hemisphere did, what did the soul believe? Was the soul a theist or an atheist?
[NOTE: KeithS is alluding here to a case discussed by the neurologist Dr. V. S. Ramachandran in a video lecture in 2006, about a split brain patient who was asked to point to “Yes,” “No” or “I don’t know,” in response to a series of questions, and whose right hemisphere, when shown the question, “Do you believe in God?”, directed the patient to point to “Yes,” while the patient’s left hemisphere, in response to the same question, directed the patient to point to “No.”]

I might add another interesting case which I’ve come across, relating to a patient named Paul S. (whose case history is discussed in detail on a Macalester College Web page on split-brain consciousness), who underwent brain bisection in the 1970s, and whose right hemisphere (unlike that of most split-brain patients) was able to understand not only nouns, but also verbal commands and also questions, after surgery, and respond to these questions in writing, giving simple one-word answers:

Paul’s right hemisphere developed considerable language ability sometime previous to the operation. Although it is uncommon, occasionally the right hemisphere may share substantial neural circuits with, or even dominate, the left hemisphere’s centers for language comprehension and production. The fact that Paul’s right hemisphere was so well developed in its verbal capacity opened a closed door for researchers. For almost all split brain patients, the thoughts and perceptions of the right hemisphere are locked away from expression. Researchers were finally able to interview both hemispheres on their views about friendship, love, hate and aspirations.

Paul’s right hemisphere stated that he wanted to be an automobile racer while his left hemisphere wanted to be a draftsman. Both hemispheres were asked to write whether they liked or disliked a series of items. The study was performed during the Watergate scandal, and one of the items was Richard Nixon. Paul’s right hemisphere expressed “dislike,” while his left expressed “like.”

(Reference: Atkinson, Rita L., Introduction to Psychology, Eleventh Edition , Harcourt Brace College Publishers, Orlando, c. 1993.)

The case of Paul S. is fully described in an article by Joseph E. LeDoux, Donald H. Wilson and Michael S. Gazzaniga, titled, A Divided Mind: Observations on the Conscious Properties of the Separated Hemispheres (Annals of Neurology 2:417-421, 1977). I’ll quote a few relevant excerpts here:

The question of whether the essence of human consciousness can be represented bilaterally in the split brain patient has so far remained unanswered. The following observations on a new patient, Patient P. S., may help to resolve the issue. For the first time, it has been possible to ask subjective questions of the separated right hemisphere and to witness self-generated answers from this mute half-brain. This opportunity was made possible by the fact that linguistic representation in the right hemisphere of our patient is greater than has been observed in any other split-brain patient. In addition to an extensive capacity for comprehending written and spoken language, the right hemisphere, though unable to generate speech, can express its mental content by arranging letters to spell words [12]…

Results

The right half-brain spelled “Paul” in response to the question “Who are you!” When requested to spell his favorite girl, the right hemisphere arranged the Scrabble letters to spell “Liz.” The right hemisphere spelled “car” for his favorite hobby. When the right hemisphere was asked to spell his favorite person, the following was generated: “Henry Wi Fozi.” (Henry Winkler is the actor who plays Fonzie.) The right hemisphere generated “Sunday” in response to the question “What is tomorrow?” When asked to describe his mood, the right hemisphere spelled out “good.” Later, in response to the same question, the left spelled “silly.” Finally, the right hemisphere spelled out “automobile race” as the job he would pick. This contrasts with the frequent assertion of the left hemisphere that he will be a “draftsman.” In fact, shortly after the test session, when asked what he would like to do for a living, the left hemisphere said, “Oh, be a draftsman, I guess.” … Finally, it should be noted that on each of these right hemisphere trials the patient was unable to name the lateralized information, thus confirming that the left hemisphere did not have access to the critical information.

Discussion

It is important to reemphasize that these responses were self generated by the right hemisphere from a set of infinite possibilities. The only aid provided to the right hemisphere was the two complete alphabets from which he could select letters at will…

Each hemisphere in P. S. has a sense of self, and each possesses its own system for subjectively evaluating current events, planning for future events, setting response priorities, and generating personal responses…

On a day that this boy’s left and right hemispheres equally valued himself, his friends, and other matters, he was calm, tractable, and appealing. On a day when testing indicated that the right and left sides disagreed on these evaluations, the boy became difficult to manage behaviorally.

I therefore propose to add two more questions to KeithS’s list:

4. What did Paul S.’s soul want to be, an automobile racer or a draftsman?

5. Did Paul S.’s soul support or oppose President Richard Nixon?

These are all fair questions, and they deserve straight answers.

Sir John Eccles on split brain cases

I’ll begin by examining what the late Nobel Prize-winning neurophysiologist Sir John Eccles, a modern substance dualist, had to say about split-brain cases.

To begin with, I would invite readers to take a look at this diagram, taken from Eccles’ 1979 Gifford Lectures on The human psyche. As readers can see, the main channel of communication between the (disembodied) conscious self and the brain is via the dominant left hemisphere, but there is also a limited degree of communication with the minor right hemisphere. Next, here is a diagram of communications to and from the brain and within the brain, after the corpus callosum has been severed. Communication from the conscious self to and from the brain is now exclusively via the dominant left hemisphere.

In his 1979 Gifford lectures on The human psyche, Sir John Eccles describes the performance of the two hemispheres of the brain, after a split brain operation:

[T]he left (speaking) hemisphere has a linguistic ability not greatly impaired. It also carries a good memory of the past linked with a good intellectual performance and with an emotional life not greatly disturbed. However it is deficient in all spatial and constructional tasks. By contrast the right hemisphere has a very limited linguistic ability. It has access to a considerable auditory vocabulary, being able to recognize commands and to relate words presented by hearing or vision to pictorial representations. It was also surprising that the right hemisphere responded to verbs as effectively as to action names. Despite all this display of language comprehension, the right hemisphere is extremely deficient in expression in speech or in writing, which is effectively zero. However, in contrast to the left hemisphere, it is very effective in all spatial and constructive tasks and it is also proficient in global recognition tasks.

After reviewing some investigations by Roger Sperry et al. (1979) on two split-brain patients that were designed to test for aspects of self-consciousness in the right hemisphere, Eccles was forced to acknowledge:

It can hardly be doubted that the right hemisphere has at least a limited self-consciousness.

But then he went on to add:

These tests for the existence of mind and of self-conscious mind [in the right hemisphere – VJT] are at a relatively simple pictorial and emotional level. We can still doubt if the right hemisphere has a full self-conscious existence. For example, does it plan and worry about the future, does it make decisions and judgements based on some value system? These are essential qualifications for personhood as ordinarily understood (Strawson, 1959; Popper and Eccles, 1977, Sects. 31 and 33)…

I would agree with DeWitt’s (1975) interpretation of the situation after commissurotomy:

Both minor and major hemispheres are conscious in that they both, no doubt, have the basic phenomenal awareness of perceptions, sensations, etc. And they both have minds … in that they exhibit elaborated, organised systems of response hierarchies, i.e., intentional behaviour. But in addition I would conjecture that only the major hemisphere has a self; only the language utilising brain is capable of the abstract cognising necessary in order to be aware of itself as a unique being. In a word, only the major hemisphere is aware of itself as a self.

This corresponds to the situation in real life, where the associates of the patient find no difficulty after the operation in regarding it as the self or person that it was before the operation. The patients themselves would of course concur, but they do have a problem arising from the splitting of the conscious mind. There is the difficulty in controlling the movements emanating from the activity of the right hemisphere with its associated mind. These movements are completely beyond the control of the conscious self or person that is exercised through the left hemisphere. For example they refer to their uncontrollable left hand as their ‘rogue hand’.

It would seem that this interpretation of DeWitt conforms with all the observational data on the commissurotomy subjects, but avoids the extreme philosophical difficulties inherent in the hypothesis of Puccetti that even normally there is a duality of personhood – ‘two persons in one brain’ as he provocatively expresses it.

Eccles died in 1997. More recent studies have shown that both hemispheres of the brain are extensively involved in self-recognition, and that only the right hemisphere possesses the further ability to recognize familiar others (see Lucina Q. Uddin et al., “Split-brain reveals separate but equal self-recognition in the two cerebral hemispheres”, Consciousness and Cognition 14, 2005, pp. 633–640). In an article titled, Self-Awareness and the Left Hemisphere: The Dark Side of Selectively Reviewing the Literature (Cortex, (2007) 43, 1068-1073), Alain Morin argues forcefully that it is a mistake to equate self-recognition (the ability to recognize oneself in a mirror) with self-awareness, which requires a deeper awareness of one’s current emotions, goals, values and thinking patterns. Even the much-vaunted “Theory of Mind” (or the recognition that other minds exist out there in the real world) fails to exhaust self-awareness – as Morin puts it, “It is very likely indeed that one needs first to access one’s own mental self before one can ponder about others’ potentially comparable inner life” (p. 1069). Morin finds that self-awareness is widely distributed across both sides of the brain, but suggests that if anything, it is the left hemisphere (and not the right hemisphere, as argued recently by some authors) which predominates in self-awareness. Elsewhere, Morin argues for the notion of a relation between inner speech and self-awareness, and he concludes: “one must not neglect the role of language (i.e., inner speech) in self-awareness — an activity deeply associated with normal functioning of the left hemisphere.” (Right hemispheric self-awareness: A critical assessment, Consciousness and Cognition 11 (2002) 396–401.)

In another paper, titled, “The split-brain debate revisited: On the importance of language and self-recognition for right hemispheric consciousness” (Journal of Mind and Behavior (2001) 22 (2):107-118), Morin elaborates his argument for the significance of inner speech in self-awareness. Inner speech, he writes, allows us to “incorporate other persons’ potential views of ourselves in our self-talk and gain an objective vision of ourselves which facilitates self-observation” and “address comments to ourselves about ourselves, as others do towards us.” Referring to the mute right hemisphere, he writes: “Certainly it can experience an emotion, but without inner speech I suggest that it might not clearly know that it is experiencing it.” Morin concludes his discussion of split brain cases as follows:

My position is that two unequal streams of consciousness (i.e. self-awareness) emerge out of the transection of the forebrain commissures…. [T]his analysis incorporates empirical evidence (1) regarding the importance of language (inner speech) for self-awareness, and (2) concerning the legitimacy of self-recognition as an operationalization of self-awareness.

Morin adds that in his opinion, the case of Paul S. (discussed above) is “the only convincing case of real full double self-awareness in a split brain patient,” probably owing to the fact that this patient suffered early brain injury in the left hemisphere at the age of two, which led to his language abilities being bilateralzed. Morin regards it as an open question as to whether Paul S. actually has “two independent streams of inner speech – two concurrent but different self-conversations” (p. 531). For my part, I would regard such a claim as doubtful: the extent of Paul S.’s right-hemispheric language abilities amounted to comprehension of simple verbal commands and questions (in oral form), the ability to read single words and the ability to spell single words with Scrabble letters. That’s hardly an argument for the existence of a second independent streams of inner speech in the right brain.

I conclude that Sir John Eccles’ empirical claim that the conscious self is predominantly linked to the left hemisphere of the brain remains a highly defensible position which will probably turn out to be verified over the next few decades, whatever one may think of Eccles’ interactionist substance dualism.

A substance dualist’s answers to five tricky questions on split brain patients

We can now answer the five questions posed above, from the standpoint of Sir John Eccles’ modern version of Descartes’ substance dualism. It is important to note that for Eccles, the terms “self” and “soul” were more or less inter-changeable, as when he wrote: “I am constrained to attribute the uniqueness of the Self or Soul to a supernatural spiritual creation” (Evolution of the Brain: Creation of the Self, Routledge, paperback, 1991, p. 249), and he went on to liken the body and brain to a computer built by genetic coding, while “the Soul or Self is the programmer of the computer” (pp. 249-250).

1. In the case of the man who attacked his wife with one arm and defended her with the other, he attacked her with his left hand (which is controlled by the right hemisphere) while simultaneously trying to protect her with his right arm (which is controlled by the left hemisphere). Since the conscious self interfaces with the brain only via the dominant left hemisphere after a split-brain operation, what the man’s soul wanted to do was to defend his wife – an act for which he gets credit. The man is not morally responsible for what his rogue left hand does, as it is controlled by the right hemisphere, which is no longer controlled by the conscious self.

Indeed, Eccles famously suggested in The Self and its Brain (Berlin: Springer International, 1977, p. 329) that a homicide committed by the left hand of a split brain patient (which is controlled by the right hemisphere) would be manslaughter rather than murder!

2. If the right hemisphere knows something that the left hemisphere doesn’t, then the conscious self (or soul) doesn’t know it. But if If the left hemisphere knows something that the right hemisphere doesn’t, then the conscious self knows it.

3. In the case of the patient whose left hemisphere didn’t believe in God but whose right hemisphere did, the patient’s soul, I am sorry to say, didn’t believe in God. In the case described by Dr. Ramachandran, all the patient had to do was point to “Yes” or “No”, when asked, “Do you believe in God?” But that behavior is not enough to warrant the attribution of a belief to someone, in the way in which that word is properly applied to rational beings. A belief is pre-eminently something which you may be called upon to justify, and state your reasons for. The patient’s right hemisphere couldn’t say why it believed in God; nor could it defend its point of view against objections. Hence it could hardly be said to have a belief in the proper sense of the word. It may have had a residual belief in God from early childhood, when people are unable to vocalize the grounds for their beliefs, but since the patient, as an adult, came to consciously reject that belief, then the patient’s soul, or conscious self, will be held liable for this rejection and judged accordingly.

4. Paul S.’s soul or conscious self wanted to be a draftsman, since that is the answer given by his left hemisphere.

5. Paul S.’s soul supported President Richard Nixon, since his left hemisphere expressed a liking for the man.

How would a thought control dualist answer these five questions?

One of the main differences between substance dualism and thought control dualism is that the former identifies the soul with the highest part of a human being – the conscious self – whereas the latter regards the soul as a hierarchical structure which informs the body at multiple levels, the highest of which (rational thought) is immaterial. In other words, thought control dualism, like Professor Edward Feser’s formal-final dualism, is hylemorphic: it regards the soul as the essential form of the body.

What that means is that according to thought control dualism. my lower mental states (e.g. sensations, desires) are just as much “mine” as my higher mental states (e.g. acts of reasoning, understanding and will). However, I am only morally culpable for those states which are subject to rational control.

1. In the case of the man who attacked his wife with his left hand (which is controlled by the right hemisphere) while simultaneously trying to protect her with his right arm (which is controlled by the left hemisphere), what his soul wanted to do on a rational level was to protect his wife. However, on a sub-rational level, he may well have had some feelings of hostility towards his wife. These feelings would also be attributable to his soul, but because the movement of his left hand was no longer subject to reason, he would not be morally culpable for attacking his wife with his left hand, as it is controlled by the right hemisphere.

A thought control dualist would agree with Eccles’ contention that a homicide committed by the left hand of a split brain patient (which is controlled by the right hemisphere) could not be called murder.

2. If the right hemisphere knows something that the left hemisphere doesn’t, then a thought control dualist would say that the soul does know it, but not in a manner which is amenable to reason and critical thinking. (It would be interesting to see what happened if the right hemisphere of a split brain patient was exposed to someone dressed up as a ghost. How, I wonder, would the patient react? My guess is that unless the patient was previously skeptical of ghosts, it would be impossible to convince the right hemisphere that what it had seen was not a ghost.)

What the dominant left hemisphere knows, on the other hand, is amenable to critical thinking and reflection. Such knowledge belongs to the highest faculties of the soul.

3. In the case of the patient whose left hemisphere didn’t believe in God but whose right hemisphere did, a thought control dualist would say that the soul retained, at some level, a habit of belief (derived from childhood, perhaps) in God. However, such a belief is no longer amenable to reason in the split brain patient. By contrast, the belief expressed by the patient’s left hemisphere is a belief that the patient could justify and give reasons for, if asked to do so. Thus it counts as a bona fide belief.

Sometimes, it is true, we may think we believe that something is true because we consciously avow it, but at a subconscious level, we intuitively recognize that what we consciously declare is mistaken. (I know a man who once told me of two ex-Catholics he knew, who publicly denied the faith, but who re-expressed a belief in it after they’d had a few beers!) In a person with a normally functioning brain, reason and intuition doubtless have lots of little tussles of this sort, and they usually manage to resolve them eventually. The truly sad thing about the split brain patient is that this kind of resolution cannot take place. In the case of the left-brain atheist discussed by KeithS, the patient’s right brain may know on an intuitive level that there is a God, but the bridge between intuition and reason has been severed. God, being merciful, will take the patient’s impairment into account.

4. Paul S.’s soul wanted to be a draftsman on a rational level, but on a more primitive, feeling-based level, his soul wanted to be an automobile racer.

5. Paul S.’s soul liked President Richard Nixon on a rational level, but disliked him on an intuitive level.

How would a formal-final dualist answer the above five questions?

The principal difference between thought control dualism and form-final dualism is that on the former account, the soul can interact with the brain and initiate neural processes, while on the latter account, the soul does not make neurons in the brain move: the soul explains the “what” and the “why” of a voluntary human action, but not the “how.” Thus thought control dualism, like substance dualism, would attempt to identify locations in the brain which are still capable of interacting with the rational soul (whose choices, like its acts of understanding, are disembodied acts), whereas formal-final dualism, which rejects such an interactionist account, would attempt to identify those actions performed by split-brain patients which still manifest rationality (and hence are morally praiseworthy or blameworthy), on an operational level – i.e. by performing relevant tests, such as carefully probing the patient’s stated reasons for his/her actions.

Bearing this in mind, we can answer the five questions above from the perspective of the formal-final dualist, as follows:

1. In the case of the man who attacked his wife with his left hand (which is controlled by the right hemisphere) while simultaneously trying to protect her with his right arm (which is controlled by the left hemisphere), both acts are attributable to different levels of the soul, as each human being embodies a psychic hierarchy. However, the action that should be counted as rational (and hence morally evaluable) is the one that the man himself can give a reason for, both before and after performing the act (this last condition is vitally important, in order to prevent confabulation, where patients make up reasons to cover their embarrassment over sudden bodily movements of theirs which they are unable to explain).

2. If one hemisphere knows something that the other hemisphere doesn’t, then a formal-final dualist would say that the soul knows it, but not in a manner which is fully integrated with the entire body. Recall that for a formal-final dualist, the soul is essentially the form of the body. If the form is badly damaged, in a way that affects cognitive functions, then the patient’s awareness may be localized, rather than spread over the global brain.

3. In the case of the patient whose left hemisphere didn’t believe in God but whose right hemisphere did, a formal-final dualist would try to ascertain which stated belief was properly integrated into the patient’s life. For example, if the patient made a habit of praying every night and going to church on Sundays, then that would be a good reason to take seriously the right hemisphere’s avowal that it still believed in God, notwithstanding the left hemisphere’s professed atheism. Deeds speak louder than words.

4. There may be different levels of the soul on which Paul S.’s soul wants to be a draftsman and an automobile racer, but the one that deserves to be called most authentically Paul S.’s wish is the one which he doggedly pursues over a period of several years, as people do when undertaking long-term rational plans.

5. Regarding President Nixon, it’s very hard for a formal-final dualist to ascertain what a split brain patient’s feelings were towards a politician, unless that patient had devoted a fair bit of time towards getting Nixon elected – or alternatively, ejected from office. In the absence of such rational, goal-oriented behavior, a formal-final dualist might be inclined to reject both hemispheres’ professed likes and dislikes as mere preferences, as opposed to rational choices. Of course, if Paul S. was able to say why he liked Nixon, than that kind of behavior would count as evidence, but only if it cohered with the rest of his political views. Since Paul S. was only eleven when Le Doux, Wilson and Gazzaniga wrote their famous article about him in 1977, some skepticism is warranted. (His views now would of course count as evidence, as well.)

In this post, I have tried to answer KeithS’s questions about split brain patients from the perspective of three distinct varieties of dualism. I shall leave it there, and let readers judge for themselves between these versions of dualism. What I have attempted to show, however, is that split brain patients do not pose an insoluble problem – or even a particularly pressing one – for believers in an immaterial soul.

Readers wanting to learn more about the history of how Christian and other dualistic philosophers tackled the problem of split brain patients may like to consult Minds Divided: Science, Spirituality, and the Split Brain in American Thought by Stephen E. Wald (ProQuest LLC, ISBN-13: 2940032034322, eISBN-13: 9780549633204), some of which can be viewed online here).

Comments
Upright BiPed:
The only way free will is actually free is to be a chooser that does not exist and therefore has no external factor (no background) on which to reason.
You're absolutely right, it's absurd. That's exactly why free will doesn't exist (there are NO choices that are unconstrained). It's like you agree with my argument, but didn't realize yet that it means free will is false. I wonder when it'll hit you...Proton
July 25, 2013
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Free will is not just “the ability to make choices”, free will is “the ability to make choices UNCONSTRAINED by external factors”. Reasoning, which is the source of the choice, IS constrained by external factors (the background) therefore choices are constrained, even if they look like they’re not. Therefore free will is false.
If reasoning among alternatives falsifies free will because the chooser would exist with an external factor (a background) on which to contemplate a choice, then the only way free will is actually free is to be a chooser that does not exist and therefore has no external factor (no background) on which to reason. Thanks for playing.Upright BiPed
July 25, 2013
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Querius: You don't deny the validity of my argument, you just think that the evidence that supports my argument can't be conclusive because we can't know exactly all the initial conditions. However, that's a kind of "grasping at straws" position. Even if we can't know 100% of someone's backgrund (and so determine exactly which factors caused a choice), we can still see that, from the data we CAN know, choices ARE constrained by the background to a considerable extent. You tried to minimize it by claiming that in reality we re influence only "in part", as here:
We’re all influenced by our environment. But that just means we’re mostly free and partly influenced. Mostly free is not the same as coerced and not free at all.
But of course that's false, evidence doesn't indicate that we're influence only in "part", but MOST of the time. So what I argument really is that: -Given that evidence points to the fact that choices are constrained MOST of the time, then it's rational to believe that choices are constrained ALL the time, and that small fraction of choices that seem exceptions are only an artifact of a flawed data recolletion, NOT "free will". So even if you claim that exceptions are examples of free will (which can't be proved), you'd still have to admit that MOST of the time choices are not free. The odds are bad for free will even if exceptions are hard to be accounted for, but in practice exceptions can be reduced dramatically by further investigation of someone's background, leaving free will outside of empirical evidence almost completely. I might not prove free will is false with 100% certainty (maybe with 99.9%), but free will has a hopeless position nonetheless and common sense dictates we shouldn't believe in things that are highly likely to be unexistent.Proton
July 25, 2013
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Upright Biped:
Why the man cannot freely choose among the choices he is aware of – one does not say. Presumably, the answer would gum up the clarity of your argument
The "reasoning" behind the person's choice is predetermined, so it's not free. Free will is not just "the ability to make choices", free will is "the ability to make choices UNCONSTRAINED by external factors". Reasoning, which is the source of the choice, IS constrained by external factors (the background) therefore choices are constrained, even if they look like they're not. Therefore free will is false. Saying that free will is true because "people can choose between A and B" just shows ignorance about the very definition of free will. Just because you "feel" that your choices are free doesn't mean they're are, it just means that you're consciously UNAWARE of the underlying factors that are constraining your choices.Proton
July 25, 2013
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@Proton
if free will is true, then there should be a 0% correlation between backgrounds and choices
First of all this statement isn't even technically correct even presuming your argument were true - in a scenario of n choices, even a random guess would have 1/n% chance of being correct. Your argument has so far gone something like: 1. Predictability of choice implies lack of free will 2. Humans are predictable based on knowledge of their background 3. Therefore humans have no free will I demonstrated an instance in which 1 was contradicted due to the existence of other factors such as rationality. Since universal quantification can be falsified by a single counter-example (and you framed your argument as a universal), your argument in its original form is falsified. You could have modified your argument to claim to predictability of choice CAN imply lack of free will (existential quantification), but I think you realise that makes for a weak argument. Instead you have taken the strategy of 1) denial and avoidance by not directly addressing my refutations and counter-examples, and 2) assuming the consequent when the conditional has been refuted. You have actually made two different arguments: firstly that every decision a person makes is determined based on historical factors (presumably such that if we knew all variables we could predict their behaviour with certainty), and secondly that predictability of actions necessarily implies this. I didn't directly address the first argument, just your use of the second as evidence for the first, which is clearly false. If you really want to continue arguing the first I'd suggest you review what evidence you use, because your current argument is incoherent. Regarding whether a persons actions are predetermined (as a stand-alone argument), I think there is good evidence from quantum-physics that affirms the free-will argument. Unfortunately you haven't provided any coherent argument against free-will. If you really want to be taken seriously I suggest you take a formal logic class. In the mean time, I will be stepping out of this conversation because I am travelling for the next 10 days. Good day to you.LT
July 24, 2013
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Proton,
Also, even if choices are the result of a chaotic dynamic, that still proves my point, because that means they’re still predetermined. Being chaotic would only mean that it’s hard to predict a choice unless the initial conditions are precisely determined.
You're starting to understand more about Chaos, but you're missing this: there is no way to determine the initial conditions precisely. Chaos lies between deterministic at one extreme and random events at the other. Here's the other point you're missing: you will have non-predictable chaotic events if God and free will don't exist . . . BUT . . . you will not be able to tell whether God or free will are tweaking the results if they do exist! Your fanatically strict interpretation of the popular definitions of "free will" simply defines free will out of existence. For example, I can argue that there's no such thing as pure water using the same approach (don't forget about ions and dissolved gases in even the purest H2O). As I've mentioned before, what you're trying to argue is Skinnerian behaviorism, which asserts that humans are no more than programmable animals, and that they are "beyond freedom and dignity." He used that as his premise for an educational philosophy, which didn't work very well in practice IMHO. Ok, I'll resort to the Princess Bride method. If Wesley was "mostly dead", it meant he was partly alive, not dead dead. So, yes. We're all influenced by our environment. But that just means we're mostly free and partly influenced. Mostly free is not the same as coerced and not free at all. But go ahead and read Skinner if you want to follow the programmed animal path.Querius
July 24, 2013
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if free will is true, then there should be a 0% correlation between backgrounds and choices
It's unfortunate you have so much invested in your argument. If you ask a man would he rather have the fish or the meatloaf, he must answer in something he is unaware of - or free will is false. Why the man cannot freely choose among the choices he is aware of - one does not say. Presumably, the answer would gum up the clarity of your argument.Upright BiPed
July 24, 2013
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@LT They one making embarrasing arguments is yourself. My argument is correct, if free will is true, then there should be a 0% correlation between backgrounds and choices, meaning, humans should be completely unpredictable. When you claim that we ARE predictable because we can reason, you're falling in your own trap and contradicting yourself, look:
The capacity of free will resides in the fact that if I so choose I can override such behaviour
What you don't understand is that evidence points to the fact that "OVERRIDING" any predetermined behaviour is an illusion, because you were predetermined to do so from the start. Underlying conditionings that you can't notice caused a chain of events that originated the overriding of certain behaviour, so your choice was still predetermined. The fact remains that for choices to be truly free, the correlation between background and choices should be unexistent even on paper. Statistical experiments regarding behaviour/opinions/beliefs should be totally inconclusive. However this is not the case. If you are ultimately predictable, then you're not truly free. Do you realize that? Hence, free will is false.Proton
July 24, 2013
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@Querius: Thanks for the reply.
You didn’t address the challenge from Chaos theory, which has been demonstrated in many scientific disciplines
But chaos theory actually proves my point Querius... Chaotic systems are still predetermined, only that they're highly sensitive to initial conditions, making them highly unpredictable if there's a lack of precision in the approximation of the present conditions. This doesn't prove my argument wrong in any way. Actually, chaos theory is still a materialistic theory, so it helps my point. Why do you even use it to try to prove free will? Also, even if choices are the result of a chaotic dynamic, that still proves my point, because that means they're still predetermined. Being chaotic would only mean that it's hard to predict a choice unless the initial conditions are precisely determined. But choices are STILL determined, being hard to predict (in this scenario, not in reality) doesn't change that fact!
Citation needed.
I tried to find online sources with statistics, but such type of information is hard to locate or is not even indexed. However, I guess that this is not needed. No one disagrees with the correlation I base my arguments on, most of you base on the exceptions of such correlation. But as an example, think about the amount of global surveys on any imaginable human topic that includes behaviour, beliefs or opinion. You'll see then that people from different countries/cultures think differently about the same topics. This is classic and obvious evidence of how our backgrounds (in this case country and/or culture) determine our choices.
you seem to assert that exceptions apparently cannot falsify your position.
I explain here why such "exceptions" are really an artifact of the experiments, and NOT REAL, and therefore are useless to the case for free will.
Your counterargument was to point out that my definition was my own invention (however, yours is apparently immutable).
Free will according to some dictionaries: "the power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will." "freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention." "the ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition." You see that there's a DIFFERENCE between "making a choice" and "making a choice unconstrained by external factors/prior causes" So yes, your definition of free will was wrong, because "free will" is NOT the same as just "making a choice". We DO make choices that are not free. A choice has to be unconstrained to be truly free, and my whole argument explains why choices are ALWAYS constrained, making free will, as defined in the three examples above, false.Proton
July 24, 2013
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ericb: Thank you so very much for pointing out the 1 Cor. 14 passage. That is such an important passage for this discussion not just because it distinguishes between the mind and the spirit, but also because it suggests the role of the mind in communication with man and the role of the spirit as communication with God. The doctrine of the Trinity combined with the doctrine of imago dei to me suggests a tripartite man in the image of a tripartite God. The "soul" is a less technical word referring to the whole person. The three parts I see are spirit, mind, and body in the order of their hierarchical priority. There is lots of Biblical evidence for this view that has not been mentioned here, for instance:
Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
Romans 12:1-2 (NASB) There you have body, mind and the human will in Christ-like, free submission to God's will. I have written a brief summation of what I think on this here: http://amishmashpaddywhack.blogspot.com/2013/06/trinitarian-metaphysics.html Also thank you VJ for the very interesting post. I think though that the modern understanding of the brain's hierarchy has identified the neocortex as the top of the pyramid. The neocortex is a lining of cells all around the brain, both right and left hemispheres. I am not at this time venturing a guess as to what that means for split brain patients or if the neocortex is the sole part of the brain which interacts with the will/spirit. But once again, a very interesting and thoughtful post from probably my favorite poster at UD.tragic mishap
July 23, 2013
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#38 Proton I'm surprised you would continue to argue such an absurd argument. Ok let's presume that correlation implies lack of free will and set up an experiment to prove it: I will line up 100 people and drive my car towards them at high speed. They have 2 choices - to move and live or stay and die. According to you view the fact that all moved out of the way implies they had no free will in the matter (since we could predict it with 100% accuracy), and if they truly had free will their choice would be entirely unpredictable. The fact that humans are intelligent agents REQUIRES that their actions be predictable by other intelligent agents - it's a property of intelligence to act rationally. Surely you can understand that?! The capacity of free will resides in the fact that if I so choose I can override such behaviour. Right now I think you should exercise your free will and stop posting embarrassing arguments.LT
July 23, 2013
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Proton, It seems to me that you're going in a circle. 1. I understood what you were asserting. Really. 2. My point was that your definition is too restrictive. I cited examples from Chaos theory. 3. Your counterargument was to point out that my definition was my own invention (however, yours is apparently immutable). You didn't address the challenge from Chaos theory, which has been demonstrated in many scientific disciplines, and then you proceeded to restate your original assertion. 4. Rinse and repeat.
Vast amounts of evidence exist of a correlation between background and choices.
Citation needed. Not one example was forthcoming from you, not even the infamous "Jukes" family study. You assert a 100% correlation, which is unlikely, given that even things like cigarette smoking and lung cancer don't have a 100% correlation. For example, a 50-year study in the UK (cancerresearchuk.org) indicates that 75-year old men who are current smokers have a cumulative risk of developing lung cancer of . . . [drum roll] . . . 16%. So how much less likely is a 100% correlation between external stimulii or "constraints," and the behavioral choices made. Finally, putting the cherry on top, you seem to assert that exceptions apparently cannot falsify your position. What can I say? If you're so determined to believe in the non-existance of free will, fine. At least read B.F. Skinner's book to make stronger arguments.Querius
July 23, 2013
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Querius:
My definition of free will is the ability to choose. The degree to which those choices are internally constrained by non-volitional influences or factors seems to indicate a range rather than an all-or-nothing view of free will.
My point is that YOU decided what "your definition" of free will is. Under the definition "free will is the ability to choose", then obviously ALL human experience is evidence of free will. But's that because you assume free will = any form of choosing" from the start. Please don't do a "Barb"... Free will, in it's correct definition, means to be able to choose WITHOUT any external constraint. So "free will" is NOT "to choose". Free will is "to choose without any external constraint". So your definition is wrong, and therefore any argument based on it is also wrong. If we define "free will" correctly as "to choose without any external constraint", then evidence clearly implies that free will is false, because choices are known to be constrained by people's backgrounds. Which leads me to my next point: @LT says:
The fact that people are rational means that their actions are going to be predictable to a considerable extent – humans reason based on the knowledge available to them to achieve desired results.
Your argument helps my point. Think a bit a harder about what you said: If people's actions are predictable to a considerable extent, then you mean that their choices (to do such actions) are preditable to a considerable extent, which is to say that free will is FALSE to a considerable extent. Which means you agree that there is a REAL correlation between backgrounds and choices, and such correlation is the RULE fo the game "to a considerable extent". Good to know we agree on that. What? There are EXCEPTIONS to that correlation that prove free choice is still true? Well, we face a dilemma and there are two ways to look at it: 1) MY view: Those "exceptions" are not really exceptions. Those "exceptions" just appear in the data because we don't know ALL of someone's background, which means there could be other before unknown factors involved in the person's background that produced the apparent "exception". Such factors can even be further investigated with forensic precision, discovered, and account for the choices, leading finally to the conclusion that those exceptions weren't really exceptions at all. 2) Free will advocates view: Those exceptions are the product of free will, NOT a lack of information about the person's background. One has to make a decision on which option to pick: 1) or 2). But considering the predominant evidence that backgrounds constrain choices to a considerable extent (as you LT say), option 1) is the rational one. Choosing option 2) is ILLOGICAL, because it contradicts the predominant evidence. NOT ONLY THAT, but option 1) can increase it's validity even more by further investigation of the person's background to find empirical evidence that their choices were constrained by factores previously unknown. All of this means that not only a correlation is HIGH implying that free will is false (which on itself can be used as strong supporting evidence that exceptions to the correlation are not really exceptions), but also that exceptions to the correlation can be INVESTIGATED to reduce or eliminate them to the point of making any argument for free will from them useless in the face of the huge amount of evidence against it. This is just a normal forensic exercise of following empirical evidence. As a summary: 1) Vast amounts of evidence exist of a correlation between background and choices. 2) Such correlation implies the falsehood of free will. 3) Exceptions to the correlation can be used as an argument against 2). 4) However, an argument from exceptions is extremely weak. Reasons: ---4.A) Exceptions can be an artifact of incomplete data. Therefore, they can't be relied on as evidence as they could be false (unexistent). Not only that, they actually CAN be investigated to prove so. ---4.B) The amount of evidence that backgrounds constrain choices is so paramount that it's useless to rely on possibly false exceptions anyway. So, I conclude again: It's irrational to believe in free will (in "the ability to make choices without any external constraint"). We feel free to make choices because we CAN'T perceive the presence of ALL the factors that constrain our choices. That's why in our head we feel our decisions are ours, even if they are predetermined. Can Christians really assure me that when they FEEL they're making a free choice they're not missing a mountain of unperceivable factors that lead them to that choice? Can they truly be sure that their choices are free other than because of blind faith? I'm not an atheist by the way LT.Proton
July 23, 2013
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KF: I would just like to extend my best wishes for you and your family at this time. Please keep up informed of the situation. ~jeradJerad
July 23, 2013
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#35 LT
So if I understand compatibilism correctly in terms of an agent system, a human agent has “”free-will”" regarding the execution of goal oriented behaviour (can select from a variety of possible goal oriented behaviours), but their motivation (goals) are determined?
I am not sure if you are being ironic or really don't understand compatibilism. The point about compatibilism is that acting to achieve your goals is free in any meaningful sense of the word. In this sense your goals also determine what you will do and that is not a problem. Those goals will in turn be determined by your desires, circumstances etc - again not a problem for free will.Mark Frank
July 23, 2013
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#32 Mark Frank So if I understand compatibilism correctly in terms of an agent system, a human agent has ""free-will"" regarding the execution of goal oriented behaviour (can select from a variety of possible goal oriented behaviours), but their motivation (goals) are determined? I think Mark has just identified himself as a chat-bot agent. I wonder if UD has a policy against chat-bots posting in the forum.? :)LT
July 23, 2013
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PPS: Folks, it will help to remember that I would love to help design and build R Daneel Olivaw and kin, though I have doubts on positronic systems. I think the key issue is that as algorithmic controllers are equivalent to Turing machines, we have to move beyond algorithms. Maybe decision by internal committee governed by views, values and variable principles with considerable flexibility, are all involved in moving beyond the algorithmic. Asimov's hint of that in his three laws of Robotics, may be a good start point for onward thought. Maybe the exposed internal debates we see in split brain patients and the metaphor for doubts and fears of being in two minds, is trying to tell us something. But, how do we create UNDERSTANDING and broad applicability in flexible ways of principles, not just rules? That sounds to me like moving towards analogue things by Zadehan fuzzy-sets and the like, triggering crisp actions on balanced internal debates. [But not merely mechanistically.] Or, am I the only one here who feels like sometimes he carries a whole parliament in his head and heart? KFkairosfocus
July 23, 2013
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MF: Pardon, but compatibilism is a nice way of saying we are free save that we are not. Responsible and reasonable choice is choice, as anyone who has had to make serious 49.9/50.1% decisions with sobering consequences, will note -- and I assure you on repeated experience, such decisions are NOT decided by flipping coins or the thrust of impulses; especially when they have a significant moral component. (Which so often forces us to go against the odds despite the very reasonable counsel of our fears. On that I keep going back in my mind's eye to the perspective of a 2nd Lieutenant on the Somme on that first morning that is forever remembered as the worst day in the history of the British Army, and I am led to reflect on why one of Jamaica's national heroes, Norman Manley, serving on that same Western Front [where, IIRC, he lost a brother], refused to go through promotion to that status.) Similarly, if we do not have significant and real freedom in making responsible choices, that even includes lack of freedom in reasoning and deciding. Which undermines ability to decide to follow a reasoned argument. That is, if -- as evolutionary materialist ideology alleges -- we are wholly programmed and controlled by blind forces of necessity and chance starting from Darwin's warm pond and moving up to nature and nurture through genes, memes, impulses and more, we are inherently, inescapably irrational. So not even the ideology of evolutionary materialism, on such premises would be rationally arrived at. This whole view is, in short, self-refuting. Even in so-called compatibilist forms or emergentist forms. If we are reasonable and responsible creatures, and our direct self-experience and observations of one another, as well as thousands of years of culture stand in massive support of that, we are free, through of course subject to impulses, influences, errors and ill will, as well as moral struggle etc. We may not fully understand how that comes to be, but that is a requisite of that which we are all exercising here, freedom to think and decide. KF PS: On Split brains etc, I have already pointed out that it seems to me that Smith-type multi-level controller model architecture and severing of connexions normally present suffice to account in principle for the sort of patterns described and imagined by materialists to pose insuperable problems for non-materialistic views of man and mind. I would not like to see what would happen to a robot controller or a factory assembly line subjected to similar cuts or to triggering of random patterns based on noise propagation. The very presence of redundancies meant to lead to more robust control, under such circumstances, could prove devastating if a controller goes out of its programmed pattern. Loss of coordination and chaos are obvious consequences.kairosfocus
July 22, 2013
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#31 LT
Predictability of actions is a sign of an intelligent agent where those actions are reasoned and goal oriented.
I agree with you that free will is compatible with predictability. Welcome to compatibilism.Mark Frank
July 22, 2013
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@Proton
If free will was true, then there should be a 0% probability of guessing what choice a person would make in a certain situation, however that’s obviously not true, because we can see that in the same situation people tend to do one thing over another, and therefore we can predict how likely is certain individual to make certain choice under a specific situation.
Wow, this has to go down as the most amusing and absurd quotes I have heard in a while. The fact that people are rational means that their actions are going to be predictable to a considerable extent - humans reason based on the knowledge available to them to achieve desired results. To have 0% probability of guessing what choice they will make (despite the fact that knowing possible choices means there will never be a 0% chance), means they would have to make entirely random choices based on their circumstance. Don't you see how absurd this statement it? In fact, I can construct a computer program in just a few minutes that meets your criteria of free will - a random number generator associated with jump operation in a space of random op-codes. It should be obvious that such a program would not even possess 'intelligence', let alone free will. Predictability of actions is a sign of an intelligent agent where those actions are reasoned and goal oriented. In computer science we talk about heuristics, which are strategies for exploring search spaces that increase the probability of finding a desirable result. Human beings use heuristics all the time, which is why they are predictable. We are goal-oriented and inferring goals implies predictable actions. Oh BTW, as much as you believe that a person is predictable based on their circumstances there are always outliers. Sorry, but this one has to go on the list of dumb things atheists say..LT
July 22, 2013
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Proton,
The problem is that you assume that “choosing = free will”, so no wonder you believe that free will is “obviously” true, because you’re assuming the conclusion from the start.
Not really. I was considering at the consequences of assuming the lack of free will, as defined and promoted by B.F. Skinner (Beyond Freedom and Dignity). However, you raise the point of limited "free will." You assert that limitations on will amount to "not free" will. I wouldn't go that far. We still call many countries in the world as "free," but they still have laws. My definition of free will is the ability to choose. The degree to which those choices are internally constrained by non-volitional influences or factors seems to indicate a range rather than an all-or-nothing view of free will. Perhaps this perspective is the origin of the legal concept of temporary insanity. And that's the subject of many courtroom debates.Querius
July 22, 2013
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Hi VJ, What I find fascinating about the split-brain phenomena is how it helps us to understand how we were created in the image of God. We know that two of the Divine Persons are the Word and the Spirit, which seem to correspond to our left and right brains. In Genesis 1, the Divine Spirit hovers, waiting for the Divine Word to give direction. But now I'm wondering what part of us, if any, corresponds to the Father?Bilbo I
July 22, 2013
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Proton writes,
@Barb, maybe I let myself be a bit arrogant when dealing with irrational people, who knows.
Who says I am irrational? You? The one who freely ignores evidence that contradicts his worldview? Your arrogance does you no favors.
And for your question, yes, I’ve recently made some donations in fact. I run an online store, and many people have helped in the process of building it, so recently I donated part of my profits to them as a thank you gift. Nothing too big, but I did it because I wanted to give back something. Those people don’t even know me personally, they’re strangers to me even in the online world. I just got a thank you email from them.
That's pretty cool. What does your online store sell?
I did it because I felt like it was the right thing, my only motivation for doing it was a need to give something back.
That's a perfectly normal, logical explanation. But why do you believe that no Christians would have the same motivations to give back? Why do you believe that all Christian giving is motivated by divine fear?
But that someone like me can do something so unselfish without expecting a reward is inconceivable to you right?
Actually, it's not. But please continue making unwarranted assumptions without any facts.Barb
July 22, 2013
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@Querius:
But think about this. If you have no free will, why do you feel motivated to try to justify yourself by arguing this point? Is it because you actually do have a choice? ;-)
The problem is that you assume that "choosing = free will", so no wonder you believe that free will is "obviously" true, because you're assuming the conclusion from the start. But: Free choice = Free will. Constrained choice = NOT free will. Choices can exist and yet NOT be free (just feel like they're free), so the existence of choices does not imply the existence of free will (something some people just don't understand). Evidence suggests clearly that choices are not ultimately free because they're always constrained. Believing that choices are not always constrained requires ignoring the evidence. Hence, because is convenient, free will advocates ignore the evidence.Proton
July 22, 2013
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vjtorley @18 writes:
In response to your question about the soul: you seem to be assuming the existence of a distinction between “mind” (nous) and “spirit” (pneuma) within the human person which I would regard as questionable, on both philosophical and Biblical grounds.
Thank you for such a detailed response. However, most of it was about the meaning of "soul", about which there are various view and various uses in Scripture. I knew that sometimes it is used in a more narrow sense that is in distinction to spirit (you give the primary examples) and at other times and by other writers in broader and more inclusive ways that are indistinguishable from spirit. As with words in English, it can have ranges and nuances of meaning and use that vary. The length of your discussion of "soul" only reveals the very reason why I said from the start that I consider the word "soul" to be unhelpful in its ambiguity. It can be used and is used in various ways, even within Scripture, whether narrow or broad. Therefore, I prefer to bypass the question of whether "soul" is or is not equivalent to "spirit" or to "mind" or is inclusive of both, or something else. Likewise, I consider the question of how many parts one can divide the human nature into as something of a red herring and unhelpful. (One can choose to inclusively refer to the whole of the incorporeal aspect, or two any number of finer distinctions.) Instead, I propose to focus on the one fact that mind and spirit are distinct. This is true regardless of whether one equates soul with mind or with spirit or with the whole or something else. I do not assume the distinction between mind and spirit, as you implied. I observe that Paul states it. It is, in fact, central to the point of his passage. He declares that when he (not God, but when he himself) speaks or sings in an unknown language, his spirit knows what his mind does not. The fact that the mind does not know is precisely what makes it speaking or singing in an unknown language. Yet, notice his repeated use of references to my spirit or your spirit.
For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also. Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? --ESV, emphasis added
You pointed out that the spirit of Jesus is divine and eternal. I completely agree, but this only underscores my point and my reason for bringing it up in the first place. The conscious human mind of Jesus was not eternal. It grew and developed as it does for any human. Jesus learned language as humans do. He consciously understood language with his mind, as Paul and other humans do. By stark contrast, the spirit of Jesus did not begin with the incarnation, as his human mind did. The spirit of Jesus did not need to learn in the way and manner that a human mind does and as the human mind of Jesus did. Yet, the spirit does have its own capacity of knowing (which is the same point that Paul was making). Thus, it is not possible for the eternal divine spirit of Jesus (i.e. God is spirit, cf. John 4:24) to be the same thing as the conscious human mind, even (or especially) in the case of Jesus. Mind and spirit cannot be the same. They are necessarily distinct. That is the distinction I propose would be helpful to discussions about such things as split brain experiments.ericB
July 22, 2013
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There is no reason to see anything more going on then memory interference. imagination and memory can explain all split brain stuff. tHere is still just one soul. The soul only learnt the original identity. Saying one can't invent a new identity, with conviction, is denying great actors getting deep into their characters.Robert Byers
July 22, 2013
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vj I am repeating my short comment #10 as I think it got lost among the longer ones. you link the soul/self to the left hemisphere – not the right. I am curious about the status of the right hemisphere. It is capable of quite complicated actions included simple language processing. It seems to be something way beyond involuntary actions such as breathing. Would you say it has free will? I suspect you will say not. But how can you tell? What does it lack that indicates it has not free will. Mark Frank
July 21, 2013
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Proton,
I’m sad you see me that way, especially after all that we’ve discussed, but I guess it’s extremely hard for a Christian to imagine that someone can choose to behave morally out of genuine empathy and not out of divine fear.
Why would you assume that you understand what motivates me as a Christian? I would strongly assure you that my empathy is my natural response to the love that God lavished on this world, providing me with forgiveness for all my shortcomings. - I don't get brownie points (and I don't want any). - I'm not afraid of punishment (I'm assured that Jesus already paid my penalty). - I don't have empathy out of a sense of moral superiority simply because I've had to let go of any self-righteousness to receive God's forgiveness.
That makes Christians sad people somehow, for they’ll never now how it feels to have true, genuine and unconditional empathy for fellow human beings, one of the many gifts that comes with the understanding of the nature of choices.
On what basis can you accuse me of not having "true, genuine, and unconditional empathy for fellow human beings"? How would you know?
I don’t believe free will is false because it’s convenient for me (like Christians like to think), I believe so because I see people’s choices constrained by their circumstances everytime I look out to the world.
Certainly people are influenced by their environment, both internal and external. But that does not excuse people from stealing from their boss, cheating on their exams, lying about other people, raping women, abusing children and so on. But I guess you disagree.
You may call me inmoral, but out of the two of us, the one who can say that he truly feels empathy, undertanding and love for humanity, is me (unlike selfish Christians, who behave morally to save themselves first and help others second).
Believe it or not, my being saved (being forgiven by God) has nothing to do with my behavior! This is the gift of God to anyone who doesn't want to try to justify themselves anymore, and instead is willing to admit their total inadequacy and accept God's mercy made possible by Jesus dying in their place. My accepting God's mercy toward me, strongly motivates me to respond in kind. You've chosen for yourself what you consider moral, namely feeling empathy for people. And no big surprise, you pass with flying colors, especially because you've convinced yourself that you can't be held responsible for anything you do. It's all circumstances, remember? But think about this. If you have no free will, why do you feel motivated to try to justify yourself by arguing this point? Is it because you actually do have a choice? ;-)Querius
July 21, 2013
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@Barb, maybe I let myself be a bit arrogant when dealing with irrational people, who knows. And for your question, yes, I've recently made some donations in fact. I run an online store, and many people have helped in the process of building it, so recently I donated part of my profits to them as a thank you gift. Nothing too big, but I did it because I wanted to give back something. Those people don't even know me personally, they're strangers to me even in the online world. I just got a thank you email from them. I did it because I felt like it was the right thing, my only motivation for doing it was a need to give something back. But that someone like me can do something so unselfish without expecting a reward is inconceivable to you right?Proton
July 21, 2013
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Proton continues,
I’m sad you see me that way, especially after all that we’ve discussed, but I guess it’s extremely hard for a Christian to imagine that someone can choose to behave morally out of genuine empathy and not out of divine fear.
It seems that way to me because you argued that serial killers should be shown empathy. I think atheists and agnostics can and do behave morally out of empathy or integrity. So do Christians, but this escapes you due to your bigotry against Christianity. Let me explain a little about what you characterize as "divine fear." I don't believe in hell as taught by many mainstream churches (a place of eternal torment). I do believe in divine fear, because it is described as "the beginning of wisdom." This fear is not fear of being punished but rather a fear of displeasing God. It's seen every day. People obey their bosses because they don't want to displease them. Students obey their teachers for the same reason.
That makes Christians sad people somehow, for they’ll never now how it feels to have true, genuine and unconditional empathy for fellow human beings, one of the many gifts that comes with the understanding of the nature of choices.
Condescending much? Christians probably have more empathy than you ever will, Proton.
I don’t believe free will is false because it’s convenient for me (like Christians like to think), I believe so because I see people’s choices constrained by their circumstances everytime I look out to the world.
And because you choose (free will!) to ignore evidence to the contrary.
You may call me inmoral,
I never called you immoral. Nor do I believe that you are immoral.
but out of the two of us, the one who can say that he truly feels empathy, undertanding and love for humanity, is me (unlike selfish Christians, who behave morally to save themselves first and help others second).
Condescending much? What have you done for humanity lately? What charity work can you claim to have done? Walked in any charity races? Donated time or money to worthy causes? Your supercilious, arrogant attitude does you no favors. It does not make you appear empathetic in the slightest. I wonder if you realize this.Barb
July 21, 2013
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