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Do The Facts Speak For Themselves?

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In this UD post I suggested that the facts (in particular, those presented by Michael Behe in The Edge of Evolution) speak for themselves. I was challenged by a commenter with: “If the facts speak for themselves, why does Behe need to write a book-length argument to make their case?”

My response is that the facts have to be presented before they can speak for themselves, and Behe presents lots of facts of which I was not aware. One of the most telling facts is that since widespread drug treatments first appeared, more than 10^20 malarial cells have been born, and no new protein-protein interactions have evolved. Furthermore, the broken genes that confer chloroquine resistance disappear once drug therapy is removed. My claim is that these facts certainly do speak for themselves, and they say that Darwinian claims about the creative power of random mutation and natural selection are bogus.

By the way, as Behe points out, 10^20 is more than all the mammals that have ever lived (deep time is not the issue when it comes to evolution, but the number of individuals and generations), yet Darwinists would like us to believe that mutation and selection turned a primitive simian ancestor into Chopin, when this process hasn’t been demonstrated to have the power to produce a novel protein-protein interaction with 10^20 chances.

These facts reveal why Darwinists must resort to tactics like literature bluffing. They don’t have much else. These facts also suggest that design should be the default position, and those proposing fantastic hypotheses like the universal creative power of Darwinian mechanisms should be on the defensive, and bear the burden of proof and demonstration.

So, am I off base, or do the facts speak for themselves?

Comments
I finally found Behe's response on the whale/dolphin/puffer fish blood clotting system issue. A poster on Intelligent Design The Future already did the research work - it was in Behe's testimony in the Dover case. In it, he deals explicitly with Miller's alleged rebuttal of the IC of the blood-clotting cascade, which includes the claim that since puffer fish (and other animals like whales) lack certain components of the human blood clotting cascade, this proves that it is not irreducibly complex. Quote from the transcript at http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/filesDB-download.php?command=download&id=581, starting on page 25: Q. .....and Doolittle and Davidson, et al, to argue against the irreducible complexity of the blood clotting system. Do you agree with his assessment of those studies? A. No, I do not. Q. And you have some diagrams to explain this further, sir? A. Yes, I do. This is a slide from Professor Miller's presentation showing work from Jiang and Doolittle. And he also shows a diagram of the blood clotting cascade. And notice again, it's a branched pathway with the intrinsic pathway and the extrinsic pathway. And Professor Miller makes the point that in DNA sequencing studies of something called a puffer fish, where the entire DNA of its genome was sequenced, and scientists looked for genes that might code for the first couple components of the intrinsic pathway, they were not found. (My comment: in the case of whales the claim is that the gene for Hageman factor (part of the beginning of the intrinsic pathway) is nonfunction, the equivalent to absent.) And so Professor Miller demonstrated that by -- if you could push to start the animation -- Professor Miller demonstrated that by having those three components blanked out in white. Nonetheless, puffer fish have a functioning clotting system. And so Professor Miller argued that this is evidence against irreducible complexity. But I disagree. And the reason I disagree is that I made some careful distinctions in Darwin's Black Box. I was very careful to specify exactly what I was talking about, and Professor Miller was not as careful in interpreting it. In Darwin's Black Box, in the chapter on blood clotting cascade, I write that, a different difference is that the control pathway for blood clotting splits in two. Potentially then, there are two possible ways to trigger clotting. The relative importance of the two pathways in living organisms is still rather murky. Many experiments on blood clotting are hard to do. And I go on to explain why they must be murky. And then I continue on the next slide. Because of that uncertainty, I said, let's, leaving aside the system before the forkin the pathway, where some details are less well-known, the blood clotting system fits the definition of irreducible complexity. And I noted that the components of the system beyond the fork in the pathway are fibrinogen, prothrombin, Stuart factor, and proaccelerin. So I was focusing on a particular part of the pathway, as I tried to make clear in Darwin's Black Box. If we could go to the next slide. Those components that I was focusing on are down here at the lower parts of the pathway. And I also circled here, for illustration, the extrinsic pathway. It turns out that the pathway can be activated by either one of two directions. And so I concentrated on the parts that were close to the common point after the fork. So if you could, I think, advance one slide. If you concentrate on those components, a number of those components are ones which have been experimentally knocked out such as fibrinogen, prothrombin, and tissue factor. And if we go to the next slide, I have red arrows pointing to those components. And you see that they all fall in the area of the blood clotting cascade that I was specifically restricting my arguments to. And if you knock out those components, in fact, the blood clotting cascade is broken. So my discussion of irreducible complexity was, I tried to be precise, and my argument, my argument is experimentally supported. (My comment: this is on page 86 of DBB. He describes the functions of Hageman factor earlier on page 84 in a general overview of the BCC, but his specific claims of IC are on page 86.) Q. Now just by way of analogy to maybe help explain further. Would this be similar to, for example, a light having two switches, and the blood clotting system that you focus on would be the light, and these extrinsic and intrinsic pathways would be two separate switches to turn on the system? A. That's right. You might have two switches. If one switch was broke, you could still use the other one. So, yes, that's a good analogy. Q. So Dr. Miller is focusing on the light switch, and you were focusing on the light? A. Pretty much, yes. .......... Q. So is it your opinion then, the blood clotting cascade is irreducibly complex? A. Yes, it is. Unquote I still think the human BCC system is likely to be entirely IC. Has any research shown that deleting Hageman factor is not lethal in higher mammals like mice? If it is, how did gradual NDE changes result in the different whale and puffer fish systems. It doesn't matter in which direction the change occurred.magnan
July 3, 2007
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SOO if anyone can answer this question about dolphins disproving irreducible complexity it would be much appreciated. Also, I suggest for the sake of ID that someone smarter than me tackle this question. We should be (on this website) in the business of effectively shooting down darwinist challenges to Behe's new book.dougcampo
July 3, 2007
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also, if dr. behe has not directly responded to the dolphin question yet. i'm sure it is because he is pressed for time.dougcampo
July 3, 2007
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magnan let me know what happens with this. i'm curious.dougcampo
July 3, 2007
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Hey Magnan. I was thinking, maybe you should try emailing Dr. Behe. I'm sure he will answer whatever questions you may have.dougcampo
July 2, 2007
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dougcampo I looked at the references Dr. Behe alluded to. There are a couple of detailed replies to various scientific critics on the irreducible complexity of the human blood clotting cascade, but they don't have anything relating to the whale blood clotting system issue. It would be nice to have the details of why the claim isn't so.magnan
July 2, 2007
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Thanks, to everyone who responded on the blood clotting question. The info has been very helpful. orionorion
July 2, 2007
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After reading some more about the dolphin immune system argument. It seems to me like this 1998 has it's own gaps and inconsistencies. In fact it's almost if Behe's critics were scrambling to find something, anything, to discredit him. It's mudslinging.dougcampo
July 2, 2007
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magnan. I actually just received an email back from Dr. Behe about this. This is what he wrote; Hi, Doug. No, it's not true. You should read my essays replying to critics at www.crsc.org. One of them addresses the blood clotting question. Others address a variety of topics. Best wishes.dougcampo
July 2, 2007
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Concerning the dolphin immune system argument. I found the reference, used by a Darwinist to supposedly shoot down irreducible complexity. He claimed this study showed that members of the whale family lack one of the factors that Behe considered part of the irreducibly complex blood clotting system (BCC). This is Semba U., Shibuya Y., Okabe H., Yamamoto T. (1998). "Whale Hageman factor (factor XII): prevented production due to pseudogene conversion"; Thromb Res 90 (1), 31-7; PMID 9678675, at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9678675&dopt=Citation . Abstract: "In Southern blot analysis of the Hind III-digested whale genomic DNA obtained from the livers of two individual whales, we detected a single band with a size of five kilobase pairs which hybridized to full length guinea pig Hageman factor cDNA. We amplified two successive segments of the whale Hageman factor gene by polymerase chain reaction (PCR), and sequenced the PCR products with a combined total of 1367 base pairs. Although all of the exon-intron assemblies predicted were identical to those of the human Hageman factor gene, there were two nonsense mutations making stop codons and a single nucleotide insertion causing a reading frame shift. We could not detect any message of the Hageman factor gene expression by northern blot analysis or by reverse transcription-polymerase chain reaction (RT-PCR) analysis. These results suggest that in the whale, production of the Hageman factor protein is prevented due to conversion of its gene to a pseudogene. The deduced amino acid sequence of whale Hageman factor showed the highest homology with the bovine molecule among the land mammals analyzed so far." Behe describes the complicated human blood clotting cascade in pages 84-85 of DBB. Apparently, activation of Hageman factor is the beginning of the "intrinsic pathway", sticking to the surface of cells near the wound, and is a critical factor in a number of later stages. Activated Hageman factor is also required in the functioning of the "extrinsic pathway" of the BCC. It occurrs to me that this study hardly shows that the human BCC is not irreducibly complex. To do this it would be necessary to show that the human BCC is still viable if Hageman factor is "knocked out". This presumable can't to shown, because Hageman is so critical to the first and several later stages of clotting and to both pathways. To be accurate, the study merely "suggests" that whales may have a modified BCC not using Hageman factor, perhaps because for tight regulation it is not needed at a wound when in seawater as opposed to air. Anyway, even if Hageman really is nonfunctional in whales, this study hardly shows that the whale BCC is not irreducibly complex, or that this modification to the intricate BCC occurred by a random walk. Hageman appears to be so critical to the system that a number of other specific changes must have been required at the same time to allow the whale BCC to remain viable at the change. That would certainly be required if we were to "knock out" Hageman factor in mice, for example. These coordinated changes would be needed to be specially designed by the genetic engineers to prevent the mice from bleeding to death or succumbing to massive spontaneous clotting. So this argument by Behe's critics is as usual a sort of smoke screen and literature bluffing.magnan
July 2, 2007
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Following up: In the thread at IDTF, Scott goes on to observe of the Flagellum, in response to Bio Prof, and worth citing here as an indication of a credible case of IC. [Just one major case is enough to overturn NDT's core theses on the mechanism of evolution; of course in TEoE, Behe gives specifics on the empirically shown probabilities to successfully mutate proteins, in the case of malaria etc, with a test space of 10^20 organisms, probably more than the number of mammals that have ever lived, much less those enough to create BCCs in divergent paths.]:
[BP] --In addition, you have no empirical evidence at all for ID. No one has even done the experimental work to even establish "the flagellum" is IC (although shown repeatedly not to be).--- [S] Wrong. Scott Minich, an expert in this area who has been studying the flagellum for some 2o years disagrees. He and his team and conducted 'knock-out' experiemts on the flagellum. In each experiment, they knocked-out one of the 40 proteins that are said to be necessary for its function. And what did they find? Knocking ANY ONE of those proteins out destroys the function of the flagellum. That is an emprical demonstration of IC. Miller (and others) proposal that, since the flagellum shares 10 components with the TTSS, the flagellum itself is not IC is fallaciuous. A subsystem's independant function does not account for the function of the larger system. Additionally, there are the remaing 30 UNIQUE protein components of the flagellum, found NOWHERE ELSE in nature. From whence were these co-opted?
The thread is definitely worth a look.kairosfocus
July 2, 2007
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PPS: Also, cf here for a general remark by Behe at ARN, July 21, 2000, on the BCC in response to various critques. As well, on hte broader issue of IC, cf Research ID wiki here and here.kairosfocus
July 2, 2007
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PS: "Predictably," my remark is in the mod pile on the BCC issue. Link the discussion here, esp Scott's comment of 06:33PM Wednesday on June 13, 2007.kairosfocus
July 2, 2007
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H'mm: I see the mods were cleared all at once. Okay. (I was beginning to wonder if I was in the doghouse and missed the reason for it . . .) I see as well that Orion has highlighted the point: "in general, presuppositions do channel our interpretation of the facts, sometimes those facts slosh out of the course and ’speak for themselves’. . . " Gill left off on one thing. Some of the probabilities are so large that the number of zeroes required to write them down by far exceed the number of atoms in the known universe ~ 1^80. On the Blood clotting cascade example, an interesting back-forth is at ID the Future, June 11, 2007 04:31PM "Behe stirs the waters . . ." and Orion and Doug Campo may wish to look in particular at Scott's comment of 06:33PM Wednesday on June 13, 2007, which extensively excerpts Behe's testimony at Dover on the issue. (The fact that DI posts this on its web site is itself eloquent testimony on the balance of the case on the merits . . .) In essence Scott says that there is a [probably inadvertent] strawman at work:
"Miller, in his 'puffer fish/whale/dolphin reubuttal' of the IC of the blood-clotting cascade is not even addressing the argument Behe makes in DBB. Behe anticipated the objection in the book (so much for his not knowing the literature) and took pains to clarify that his argument focuses on a very specific section of the pathway. Miller, completely ignoring Behe's argument (or ignorant of it), chooses instead to address a section of the pathway that Behe explicitly excluded from his analysis."
--> I leave it to those competent in Biochem to give more details pro or con. --> But I also note that Scott [is that you, Dave?] in his comment of 09:59AM Wednesday on June 13, 2007, notes to Bio Prof:
"1- You have just demonstrated that a central contention of the evolution lobby, that ID is not science since it is not testable, is flat-out false. Behe proposed that blood-clotting is IC. And here you and your evolutionary cohorts are TESTING IT AND (PRESUMABLY[)] FALSIFYING IT. Thus, at the very least, you are proving that ID is testable and thus scientific. 2- IF blood-clotting is thus (vis-a-vis Factor XII) proved to be not IC, the MOST that can be said is that blood-clotting is not IC. This would in no way prove that IC does not exist in biological organisms at all."
So, the issue is at most disproving of ONE of Behe's many detailed claims. If just one bio-system turns out to in fact be credibly IC, NDT falls. (Cf here, inter alia, the flagellum and the debate over it, including Miller's premature claims over the TTSS.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 2, 2007
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Some perspective is needed here. The forest is not being seen for the trees. For the sake of argument let's grant that there might be some hypothetical transitionals for the immune system and other low-level biochemical systems. (This is all complete conjecture, however.) But eventually we're talking about highly sophisticated information-processing machinery, a complex factory the likes of which human engineers have not even conceived, coordinated on countless levels of hierarchical subintegration. We're not talking about the highly improbable; we're talking about improbabilities so huge that orders of magnitude must be expressed with exponents that require expression in orders of magnitude. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/writing-computer-programs-by-random-mutation-and-natural-selection/GilDodgen
July 1, 2007
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I just checked out S. Allens comments about the Edge of Evolution on Amazon.Com. S. Allen is psychotic.dougcampo
July 1, 2007
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Seriously though. Could someone more qualified please answer Orion's question?dougcampo
July 1, 2007
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Orion. I think that a dolphin's immune system works just find without the component Behe said was required is bogus. Now I could be wrong about this, so can someone help me answer Orion's question? Orion, there is so much bull shit out there about Dr. Behe's work. People who oppose his work will say anything in an attempt to discredit him. So take Behe criticism with a grain of salt.dougcampo
July 1, 2007
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While I agree that, in general, presuppositions do channel our interpretation of the facts, sometimes those facts slosh out of the course and 'speak for themselves'. Also, I noted in an earlier entry that someone asked about S. Allen's comments about Behe's book on the Amazon blog. I have a question too. S.Allen states that, "His claims that the blood clotting cascade were irreducibly complex were shown to be false when it was pointed out that the dolphin's immune system worked just fine without a component that Behe said was required." I've read this before and have been unable to find an adequate response. Could someone help me out please. orionorion
July 1, 2007
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Above I should have said "an infinite chain of facts, each requiring..."Lurker
July 1, 2007
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At some point in the logical chain of reasoning, the facts MUST 'speak for themselves' or else you're stuck with an infinite chain of reasons, each requiring an explanation. The difference between one person and another is the point at which they stop the reasoning process and say "it's completely obvious"Lurker
July 1, 2007
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I believe the original issue still has life: when do facts "speak for themselves?" ANS 1: When one is forced to use inconsistent critical analysis standards or misleading rhetorical tactics to reject otherwise credible facts and their implications, then the facts have compellingly spoken "for themselves." [IMHCO Behe in TEoE, seems to be putting RM + NS-driven darwinian style macro evolution to that point.] ANS 2: Now, as we look at the world of "facts," we are looking at the issue of abductive reasoning, not demonstrative, logical-mathematical proofs. That is, in scientific and similar contexts, we are really asking, which possible explanation/ model/ theory [E/M/T] among the live options is currently -- thus also, BTW, provisionally -- the "best." That brings up factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory elegance [vs being either simplistic or ad hoc] as criteria of evaluation. In that world of discourse, the sort of selective hyper-skepticism in ANS 1 is a dead giveaway; it is plainly at work in the case of TEoE. ANS 3: When a proposed E/M/T would be compelling relative to the credible facts were a consistent standard of assessing facts and/or their implications to be applied, then it is plainly the best. That means that when one has to resort to selective hyper-skepticism and/or world view-level question begging to reject certain facts and/or their implications,then the facts have indeed spoken for themselves. (Cases in point on the ID vs NDT debate are not hard to find. Behe is simply making explicit and public what is evident to those who can do the basic probability numbers on what it would take to create the sort of genetic novelty to do major innovations in DNA-based life forms through RM + NS. And, BTW, NS is also by and large a random chance based process: having a better chance at reproduction due to better fit to an environment is not a deterministic process but a chance-based, probabilistic one!)kairosfocus
June 30, 2007
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Personally, I have my own doubts about universal common descent. I'm just wondering what Dr. Dembski thinks. I know, say for instance Hugh Ross. He accepts the Big Bang, an old universe and earth, but also believes (as I understand it) in the special creation of all forms of life at different times in real time. So does Dr. Dembski believe in special creation or that the plans for different groups of animals were front-loaded?dougcampo
June 30, 2007
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As for people being banned. If people who come to this blog just to disrupt discussion and ID research aren't blocked. Then how can we ever have reasonable discourse. Thank to whoever mediates this blog for keeping it a fairly civil, nice little corner of the internet. :) ALSO. Could someone answer my question? If Dr. Dembski doesn't think the evidence supports universal common descent (see IDEA Center interview), what does he propose in it's place?dougcampo
June 30, 2007
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bobwilson - Hermagoras was banned from UD. I have yet to have that privilege, hence I am not banned and can comment. I hope these facts speak for themselves. :-) BobBob O'H
June 30, 2007
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Patrick, Thanks for the suggestion. I'll try to put one up as soon as I get back from a trip. I'm leaving in the next hour. regards, Salvadorscordova
June 30, 2007
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Yeah, it's hard for a non-scientist layman. I understand how arguments work or should work, but don't have the technical understanding. I haven't read Behe's book--I only have enough available RAM for the ID issue to visit this site and so what it discusses makes up the sum of my knowledge of the ID-POV, unfortunately. Thankfully, that's more than the average person already.rswood
June 30, 2007
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sal, That charge is likely to be repeated again and again so perhaps make it a front page blog? After all, it appears to be the only argument I've seen that touches upon core issues.Patrick
June 30, 2007
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rswood, Feel free to ask for clarifications on my comment here: Comment 38, Ken Miller, Honest Darwinist. I think that shows what S. Allen does not understand.scordova
June 30, 2007
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Last night I went to Borders book store. After looking around a bit I remembered about Dr. Behe's new book. The Edge of Evolution. Now I think Dr. Behe is brilliant and also one of the nicest people I have had the pleasure of speaking to. I feel that the Darwinist community is threatened by his ideas, and more importantly, by this new book. What worries me, is that the average person on the street is being confused by the garbage Behe's critics are spewing. RSWOOD for instance. Most people, I fear are content to just believe what the so-called experts say. Anyway, when I found the book, I was really pleasantly surprised. Dr. Behe is not only brilliant scientifically and technically, he also a really good writer who manages to weave personal anecdote and humor into what is sometimes (for me atleast) somewhat tedious reading.dougcampo
June 30, 2007
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