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Do The Facts Speak For Themselves?

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In this UD post I suggested that the facts (in particular, those presented by Michael Behe in The Edge of Evolution) speak for themselves. I was challenged by a commenter with: “If the facts speak for themselves, why does Behe need to write a book-length argument to make their case?”

My response is that the facts have to be presented before they can speak for themselves, and Behe presents lots of facts of which I was not aware. One of the most telling facts is that since widespread drug treatments first appeared, more than 10^20 malarial cells have been born, and no new protein-protein interactions have evolved. Furthermore, the broken genes that confer chloroquine resistance disappear once drug therapy is removed. My claim is that these facts certainly do speak for themselves, and they say that Darwinian claims about the creative power of random mutation and natural selection are bogus.

By the way, as Behe points out, 10^20 is more than all the mammals that have ever lived (deep time is not the issue when it comes to evolution, but the number of individuals and generations), yet Darwinists would like us to believe that mutation and selection turned a primitive simian ancestor into Chopin, when this process hasn’t been demonstrated to have the power to produce a novel protein-protein interaction with 10^20 chances.

These facts reveal why Darwinists must resort to tactics like literature bluffing. They don’t have much else. These facts also suggest that design should be the default position, and those proposing fantastic hypotheses like the universal creative power of Darwinian mechanisms should be on the defensive, and bear the burden of proof and demonstration.

So, am I off base, or do the facts speak for themselves?

Comments
BTW, given what I just wrote, I agree that the facts do speak for themselves once you understand their implications and the rules of evidence and proof.Borne
June 29, 2007
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What constitutes evidence and what is proof? From Charles G. Finney on the laws of Evidence:
1. Evidence is that which elucidates and enables the mind to apprehend truth. 2. Proof is that degree of evidence that warrants or demands belief--that does or ought to produce conviction. 3. Every degree of evidence is not proof. Every degree of light upon a subject is evidence. But that only is proof which under the circumstances can give reasonable satisfaction. Sources of evidence. This must depend upon the nature of the thing to be proved. 1. Consciousness may be appealed to upon questions that are within its reach, or on questions of experience, but not on other questions. 2. Sense may be appealed to on questions within the reach of our senses, but not on other questions. ... IV. Kinds and degrees of evidence to be expected. KINDS of Evidence. 1. No impossible or unreasonable kind is to be expected, e.g.: The evidence of sense is not to be demanded or expected when the thing to be proved is not an object of or within the reach of sensation. 2. Nor of consciousness when the question is not one of experience and does not belong to the exercises of our own minds. 3. It is a sound rule that the best evidence in kind shall be adduced, that the nature of the case admits: for instance, (1.) Oral testimony is not admissible where written testimony may be had to the same point. (2.) Of course oral traditions are not to be received where there is written history to the same point. (3.) But oral testimony is admissible in the absence of written, as then, it is the best that the nature of the case admits. (4.) So oral traditions may be received to establish points of antiquity, in the absence of contemporary history. ... DEGREE OF EVIDENCE. 1. Not, in general, demonstration; as this would be inconsistent with a state of probation under a moral government. 2. Not, in general, such a degree of evidence as to preclude the possibility of cavil or evasion, for the same reason. But, 1. Such an amount of evidence on all fundamental questions as to afford reasonable satisfaction to an honest and inquiring mind. 2. Such an amount of evidence upon the face of creation itself as should gain the general assent of mankind to the facts of the Divine existence and of human accountability. 3. That the evidence could be more or less, Latent, Patent, Direct, Inferential, Incidental, Full, and Unanswerable according to its relative importance in the system of Divine truth. V. When objections are not, and when they are fatal. NOT FATAL. 1. Not when they are not well established by proof. 2. Not when the truth of the objection may consist with the truth of the proposition which it is intended to overthrow. 3. Not when the affirmative proposition is conclusively established by testimony, although we may be unable to discover the consistency of the proposition with the objection. 4. Not always fatal because unanswerable. BUT AN OBJECTION IS FATAL, 1. When it is an unquestionable reality, and plainly incompatible with the truth of the proposition against which it lies. 2. When the higher probability is in its favor. 3. When the objection is established by a higher kind or degree of evidence than the proposition to which it is opposed. E.g. Consciousness is the highest kind of evidence: an objection founded in, or supported by consciousness will set aside other testimony. 4. The testimony of sense is not always conclusive in the face of other testimony, and an objection founded in, and supported by sensation is not always fatal. 5. An objection is fatal, when it fully proves that the proposition in question is not merely above, but plainly contrary to the affirmations of reason.
from HERE I've found Finney's lectures on this subject of great use for any kind of debate. Armed with a good knowledge of the laws of evidence, one can more confidently, knowledgeably and successfully debate on any subject as long as the facts are known and understood. Many of the problems we face in the ID/Evo controversy are due to a lack of understanding of the laws of evidence. Darwinists in general seem to know almost nothing of the laws of evidence. They hand out evidence and call it proof. But their evidence is by no means sufficient to be called proof at all. Indeed it does not comply in the least. ID has the right amount of evidence to be tantamount to proof - enough to convince any unprejudiced or unbrainwashed mind.Borne
June 29, 2007
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I think Patrick's observation is most insightful, and I contend that the 10^20 data set is sufficiently large to preclude Darwinian mechanisms as an explanation for all aspects of living systems, which is the claim made by Darwinists. By the way, I do appreciate the friendly and thoughtful challenges. I think this is a key question when it comes to origins. We might ask, Where is the edge of evidence? In other words, when do the facts legitimately speak for themselves and preclude certain interpretations? This edge certainly exists, and there are many examples of it in the history of science (e.g., the abandonment of geocentrism, phlogiston theory, attempts to create perpetual-motion machines -- the list is endless).GilDodgen
June 29, 2007
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Collin:
What if we disagree on what is primae facie evidence?
Then it really wouldn't be "primae facie," because reasonable people didn't agree. If you made the claim that the evidence was in fact prima facie, and I thought it wasn't, I'd require you to make a case for your claim before I'd accept it. Which act would by definition make it not prima facie as we'd then be in the realm of argumentation. Of course you could claim that I wasn't a reasonable person. This is how Richard Dawkins gets out of engaging in real debate with those who disbelieve Darwinism. He stlll hasn't made a case for this claim, however.dacook
June 29, 2007
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It should be noted that evolutionists presuppose evolution to be true first, then gather evidence (mostly similarities of some sort) to support it. Whereas IDists presuppose that either evolution or intelligence (the only two reasonable options) is the reason for an organism. Thus the Idists is much freer to evaluate the evidence accurately and to draw more valid conclusions than the evolutionists who is totally blinded to any other option than his preconcieved philosophical bias.bornagain77
June 29, 2007
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dacook What if we disagree on what is primae facie evidence?Collin
June 29, 2007
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The volume of facts is a large factor. If the available data set is small the facts may be compatible with multiple conflicting viewpoints. But as the number of facts increase the number of viable options decrease.Patrick
June 29, 2007
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Much as I respect GilDodgen, I am also going to have to weigh in on the contrary side of the question. To demonstrate simply, the most basic argument structure consists of: Evidence=>Inference=>Claim Someone makes a Claim. To back up this claim they cite some Evidence. They must then make a case for why this evidence supports their Claim. This is Inference. The Case is the argument for their Inference, or interpretation of the evidence as supporting the Claim. "The facts speak for themselves" is only true in special, very obvious cases called "Prima Facie," or "on the face of it" meaning it's just so obvious that no reasonable person could possibly disagree. I the field of biological origins and development, we often agree on what the evidence IS. However, marked divergence occurs after that. Inferences and Claims from the same evidence often go in opposite directions. Witness the fossil record, for just one obvious example: Steven Gould looked at the discontinuity in the record, inferred that there must be sudden jumps in evolutionary progress interspersed with long periods of no change, and made the claim of "punctuated equilibrium." Others look at the fossil record and infer transitional forms from things they find and claim standard Darwinian evolution. Still others (Hoyle) look at the same fossil evidence and infer periodic infusions of new DNA information to account for the evidence. Others infer "front loading," where the codes were there all the time and were expressed at some trigger to account for the sudden changes. Creationists may use the same fossil evidence to infer sequential creation. This is perhaps oversimplified, but I think makes apparent that the facts do not always, or even usually, speak for themselves, but must be interpreted for meaning. And therin, as they say, lies the rub.dacook
June 29, 2007
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Evidence is interpreted by the individual. I think most evidence is biased by our presuppositions. I have a professor who talks about the dead man syndrome. It goes like this: A man walks into the doctor's office and says he is dead. The doctor disagrees and attempts to prove otherwise. The doctor asks "Do dead men bleed" and the patient responds "No." So, the doctor pricks the patient's finger and he bleeds. The patient exclaims "I was wrong! Dead men do bleed!" Obviously, if people presuppose something, I think most people will fit their evidence to adhere to what they want. This is why Behe's book gets a lot of attention, it is apparently attacking presuppositions. Their problem is that the facts aren't speaking for them (materialists). Hope that makes an ounce of sense :-Pbork
June 29, 2007
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As much as I like your posts and agree with most everything you say, Gil, I disagree here on a basic level. I believe that the facts do not speak for themselves because there are philosophical and metaphysical requirements that must be met before they will be allowed to speak. If they do speak for themselves, to whom do they speak? There are huge controversies as to what constitutes evidence, and how a person's presuppositions will shape what he sees, how he sees it and how he will interpret it. As I think your post is more about the evidence than the presuppositions, however, I agree with you on the facts that Behe has presented and find the message deafening - but only because you and I allow those facts to speak to us.Charlie
June 29, 2007
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