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Do we need a context to identify a message as the product of an intelligent being?

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In today’s short post, I shall argue that (a) there are at least some messages which we can identify as the product of an intelligent agent, regardless of their linguistic and social context, and (b) there is no context in which it would be reasonable for us to conclude that a message visible to everyone was a hallucination.

What prompted this discussion

In a post titled Signature in the cell?, Professor Edward Feser argued that no message, in and of itself, could warrant the inference that it was the product of an intelligent agent, without a knowledge of the context of the message. Referring to the hypothetical scenario in which a “Made by Yahweh” message was discovered in every human being’s cells, Feser wrote:

If we’re to judge that Yahweh, rather than extraterrestrial pranksters, hallucination, or some other cause, was behind such an event, it is considerations other than the event itself that will justify us in doing so.

The reference to “hallucination, or some other cause” (presumably a natural one) as a possible explanation for the “Made by Yahweh” message in every human being’s cells led me to infer that Feser was acknowledging the legitimacy of a hyper-skeptical stance here – a position for which I criticized him in a subsequent post. Feser wrote a follow-up post in reply, in which he clarified his position:

I neither said nor implied that it would be “perfectly rational” to interpret phrases like the ones in question [e.g. the “Made by Yahweh” message in every cell – VJT] as hallucinations or as something other than a product of intelligence… What I said is that determining what to make of such weird events would crucially depend on epistemic background context, and that if we concluded that God was responsible (as of course we well might), then that epistemic background context would be doing more work in justifying that judgment than the weird events themselves would be.

In a comment attached to a recent post on Professor Feser’s Website, I pressed him to answer two simple questions of mine:

…[A]s an ID theorist, I happen to think it’s absolutely obvious that we can identify some messages as the work of an intelligent designer, regardless of context… From my reading of your [earlier] post, it seemed to me that you were saying that context was essential when drawing the inference that a message was the work of an intelligent agent. I would profoundly disagree.

I’d like to bury the hatchet, so I’ll ask you two questions:

1. Do you agree that if a message saying “Made by _____” were discovered in every human’s cells, it would be irrational to explain away the discovery as a mass hallucination, regardless of whether the message referred to God, Quetzalcoatl, or Steve Jobs as its author?

2. Do you agree that if the message were suitably long and specific (say, 100 characters of perfectly grammatical English with no repetition), it would be irrational not to ascribe the message to an intelligent agent, regardless of the message’s context?

As we’ll see below, Feser’s answer to both questions was “No.”
Feser replied:

…[O]ther readers have already pointed out what is wrong with your questions. Of course context would be relevant to interpreting such messages. Now, I can easily imagine contexts in which it would be extremely unreasonable to say “Oh, this is a hallucination” and I can easily imagine contexts in which it would not be. If we describe various possible contexts in enough detail, we can certainly see how they would make a clear answer possible. That’s why there’s nothing remotely skeptical about what I said. Give us a specific context and sure, we can decide “This suggested interpretation is just indefensible” or “That suggested interpretation is extremely plausible.” But it’s silly to say “Let’s abstract from all context and then ask what the most probable source of the phrase is.” As Mike Flynn pointed out above, there’s no such thing as the most probable source absent all context.

Feser continued:

BTW, Vincent’s attempt to wriggle out of the problem context poses for his position is like certain point-missing attempts to solve the “commonsense knowledge problem” in AI [artificial intelligence – VJT]. As Hubert Dreyfus argues, it makes no sense to think that intelligence can be reduced to a set of explicitly formulated rules and representations, because there are always various context-dependent ways to interpret the rules and representations. To say “Oh, we’ll just put the ‘right’ interpretation into the rules and representations” completely misses the point, since it just adds further rules and representations that are themselves subject to alternative context-dependent interpretations.

Vincent is doing something similar when he tries to come up with these goofy examples of really long messages written in the cell. It completely misses the point, because that’s just further stuff the import of which depends on a larger context. It also completely misses the point to shout “Skepticism!”, just as an AI defender would be completely missing the point if he accused Dreyfus of being a skeptic. There’s nothing skeptical about it. We can know what the context is and thus we can know what the right interpretation is; we just can’t know the right interpretation apart from all context.

What is a context, anyway?

Remarkably, nowhere in his post does Professor Feser attempt to define what he means by a context – a curious omission. So I’m going to go with a standard dictionary definition: “the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.” I should mention that there is another definition for context: “the parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning.” However, in the case under consideration, we are looking at a short isolated message, with nothing preceding or following it. So the questions we need to confront are: do we need to attend to “the circumstances that form the setting” for the purported message, in order to rationally conclude that it is (a) not a collective hallucination we are all having, and (b) from an intelligent source? Feser contends that we do, and I maintain that we do not.

Feser’s absurd epistemic claim: there are some contexts in which hallucination may be a reasonable explanation for the discovery of a purported message in every human’s cells

I’d like to go back to a remark Feser made above:

Of course context would be relevant to interpreting such messages. Now, I can easily imagine contexts in which it would be extremely unreasonable to say “Oh, this is a hallucination” and I can easily imagine contexts in which it would not be.

What Feser is saying here is that there are at least some contexts in which it would not be unreasonable [i.e. it might be reasonable] for us to conclude that a purported message discovered by scientists in every human being’s cells was in fact a hallucination. This, I have to say, is outright nonsense.

In order to see why it’s nonsense, let’s imagine a scenario which is as generous to Professor Feser’s case as it is possible to be. Let’s suppose that a worldwide magnetic storm is playing havoc with people’s brains, causing them to hallucinate. It has been claimed that magnetic stimulation of the brain can trigger religious hallucinations, although the evidence for this claim is very thin. But let’s suppose for argument’s sake that this claim is true. During the magnetic storm, some scientists suddenly announce the discovery of a “Made by Yahweh” message in every human being’s cells. Other scientists around the world rush to confirm the claim. Could they all be seeing things in their laboratories? Could mass hallucination be a rational explanation for this sudden discovery of what appears to be a message in our cells?

No, it couldn’t – unless all the world’s scientists have not only started hallucinating, but lost their ability to reason, as well. But that wasn’t the scenario envisaged by Feser: his assertion that he can imagine at least some contexts where it would not be unreasonable to conclude that a purported message was a hallucination presupposes that the people drawing this conclusion still possess the use of reason, even in these far-fetched contexts.

One obvious way in which scientists could confirm that the message was real – even during a magnetic storm that was playing havoc with their perceptions – would be to use double-blind testing, with a control sample of similar-looking cells (say, synthetic cells, or perhaps cells from another species) that did not contain the “Made by Yahweh” message. (A control sample of synthetic cells might contain no message at all, or alternatively, a different message – “Made by Craig Venter” – might be inserted into the cells.) If testing on different scientists produced consistent results – e.g. if they all reported seeing the same message in the same cells – then the hallucination hypothesis would be decisively ruled out, as an explanation.

Interpretation is not the same thing as decoding: why the commonsense knowledge problem is irrelevant to the Intelligent Design project

In his reply to my questions, Feser alluded to the work of AI researcher Hubert Dreyfus, who in a book titled Mind over Machine (Free Press, 1986) which he co-authored with Stuart Dreyfus, defined the commonsense knowledge problem as “how to store and access all the facts human beings seem to know” (1986, p. 78). As Wikipedia notes, “The problem is considered to be among the hardest in all of AI research because the breadth and detail of commonsense knowledge is enormous.”

As we’ve seen, Feser contends that because the correct interpretation of a rule invariably requires contextual knowledge, any attempt to infer that a purported message is in fact the product of an intelligent agent, apart from all context, is doomed to failure. But what Feser is assuming here is that the identification of a purported message as the work of an intelligent agent requires a correct interpretation of that message. As an Intelligent Design advocate, I disagree: all it requires is the decoding of that message, and it may not even require that. (If the message could be independently shown to be both highly specific and astronomically improbable, I believe it would be rational to infer on these grounds alone that an intelligent agent was most likely responsible for producing the alleged message, even if we had no idea what it was about.) Hence Professor Feser’s assertion that “we just can’t know the right interpretation apart from all context” is beside the point.

Decoding a message is very easy, if it is written in the script of a language we already understand: all we need to do is read each word of the script and confirm that it conforms to the grammatical and spelling rules of the language in question. Depending on the language in question, the code we use when reading the words – something we all learned to do at school – may be either a phonic code (for alphabetic scripts), a syllabic code, a logographic code (for ideograms) or a pictographic code. Even if sentence turns out to be grammatically correct, but semantically nonsensical, like Noam Chomsky’s “Colorless green ideas sleep furiously”, decoding it is still a relatively straightforward affair. And if we found such a message inscribed on the walls of every human cell, we should have no hesitation in concluding that some intelligent agent was responsible, even if we didn’t know who that agent was.

(Note: I should like to make it clear that I do not regard people’s ability to read texts written in their own native language as part of the context of a purported message in that language. Defining “context” in this way would make the term absurdly broad. Rather, I would see the ability to read a language as a presupposition of there being any messages in that language at all. The term “context” refers to circumstances that help us understand the meaning of a message, and does not include the ability to decode a script.)

Decoding a message is harder when it is written in a language we understand, but where the message is encrypted, using a cipher. In such cases, we might think that at least some background knowledge was essential, in order to decode the message. However, there have been occasions when ciphers were reconstructed through the power of pure deduction – for example, the German Lorenz cipher and the Japanese Purple code. Having successfully decoded the message, it would be the very height of irrationality not to ascribe the message to an intelligent agent, even if we knew nothing of the message’s context. For instance, the message might say, “The weather is sunny,” but in spy-talk that might really mean: “The coast is clear: we can proceed with our plan.” But even if we had no idea of the message’s true import, we could still legitimately infer that it originated from an intelligent source, once we had decoded it.

When the message is written in an unknown language, decoding is complicated by the mathematical fact that there’s always some cipher that can be used to transform an unknown message into any string of English characters you want. This point was made by one of my critics, named Scott, who argued: “100 characters of perfectly grammatical English wouldn’t look like any such thing to anyone who didn’t already read English. For that matter, given a hundred of anything, there’s some cipher according to which the series encodes any 100-character string you care to choose.” In practice, successful decoding of scripts in unknown languages, such as Linear A (used in Crete over 3,000 years ago), relies heavily on context-related clues. The question then arises: what should we conclude if astronauts found what appeared to be an inscription in an unknown language on the Moon or Mars? Without a context of any sort, could we still make the inference that the inscription came from an intelligent source?

I believe we can. A simple illustration will suffice. In 2013, two scientists writing in the journal Icarus argued that there were patterns in the genetic code of living organisms that were highly statistically significant, with features indicative of intelligence which were inconsistent with any known natural process. (The authors of the paper, Vladimir I. Cherbak of al-Farabi Kazakh National University of Kazakhstan, and Maxim A. Makukov of the Fesenkov Astrophysical Institute, list several categories of natural processes, and they are clearly familiar with the relevant scientific literature on the subject.) “Simple arrangements of the code reveal an ensemble of arithmetical and ideographical patterns of symbolic language,” they wrote. These features included decimal notation, logical transformation and the abstract symbol zero. Summing up, the authors argued:

In total, not only the signal itself reveals intelligent-like features – strict nucleon equalities, their decimal notation, logical transformation accompanying the equalities, the symbol of zero and semantic symmetries, but the very method of its extraction involved abstract operations – consideration of idealized (free and unmodified) molecules, distinction between their blocks and chains, the activation key, contraction and decomposition of codons. We find that taken together all these aspects point at artificial nature of the patterns.

The authors tentatively concluded that the decimal system in the genetic code “was invented outside the Solar System already several billions (sic) years ago.” (H/t: Max for correction to my wording.)

Regardless of whether the authors’ claims turn out to be true or not – and I’m not holding my breath – the point is that the identification of the signal they claimed to find in our genetic code was made on purely mathematical grounds, apart from all considerations of context. In order to rule out a natural (as opposed to artificial) source for the message, the only thing the authors needed to ascertain was whether it could be accounted for by known natural causes. One could always hypothesize the existence of a natural cause capable of generating these mathematical features, but the authors argue that the only reasonable inference to draw is that the signal they claim to find in the genetic code is an artificial one, generated by an intelligent source.

(I should point out here that our knowledge of what natural processes are capable of generating is not contextual knowledge, but scientific knowledge. As I stated above, the term “context” properly refers to circumstances that help us understand the meaning of a message. Our knowledge of processes occurring in Nature does not help us to do that.)

I conclude, then, that Professor Feser’s contention that the identification of a purported message as the product of an intelligent source cannot be made, apart from all context, is baseless and incorrect. I hope that Professor Feser will be gracious enough to acknowledge this in the future.

Comments
Information is neither matter nor energy. According to RDFish that means information is contra-causal. Does that mean information is a metaphysical conjecture?Joe
August 18, 2014
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Acartia_bogart- wikipedia is not an accepted academic resource, Also I posted the accepted definitions of "intelligence" that pertains to ID. I will stick with those as even RDFish admits that 1) the definitions fit and 2) he cannot do anything to refute them respective of ID. Comment 190 And I am OK with thatJoe
August 18, 2014
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Hi StephenB,
According to my definition of intelligence, rivers are NOT intelligent.
For the tenth time, according to your initial definition they are ... you had to qualify your definition to clarify that what you meant was selections must be non-determined in order to be intelligent, and ALSO that the results of these selections must be consciously anticpated. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 18, 2014
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Joe: "The ability to learn is only one aspect of intelligence. No one but the anal retentive sez that to exhibit intelligence one must also entail every aspect of the definition." I guess I am misinterpreting the word 'and' in the definition posted earlier. So, which of these requirements for intelligence is optional? Ability to reason, ability to problem solve, ability to think abstractly, self awareness, ability to learn. I'm sure there are other, but we can start with these.Acartia_bogart
August 18, 2014
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RD: According to SB’s initial definition of “intelligence” as “ability to make selections”, rivers are intelligent, which is absurd.
What madness! What demogoguery! According to my definition of intelligence, rivers are NOT intelligent. You are the one who introduced the crazy concept that rivers and lightning bolts make selections, and you were quite serious about it. The point of defining intelligence as the capacity to make selections is to differentiate the meaningful choices of intelligent agents from the determined actions of rivers and lightning bolts.StephenB
August 18, 2014
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Hi StephenB,
So, you have no response. As I said, you proved you believe in free will when you complained about my insulting behavior. You know that I could have chosen to be nice and decided not to do it. Case closed.
Good grief, are you serious? Have you EVER read ANYTHING about free will in your life? Honestly, this sort of argument is exactly what a freshman would come up with. My response is simple: You have no way to show that our behaviors are not determined. Don't you see that if your silly little argument-by-fiat actually showed determinism to be false, the best philosophers and theologians on both sides of this issue would not continue to publish new and revised arguments for and against libertarianism?
There is plenty of evidence to indicate that humans make selections that transcend determinism.
There is none, of course.
1. We observe FSCI. 2. We ask, “what caused it?” 3. We propose two possible alternatives, determinism and contra-causality. 4. We weight the evidence
This is good - you are making your position clearer. We've now agreed that your position rests on the claim that there is some sort of evidence that something - anything - acts in a way that is not caused by antecedent physical states or events. So, at long last, we have one single issue to debate: Please provide one single bit of evidence that anything acts in a way that is not determined by antecedent cause. [There is, of course, one sort of thing that satisfies this requirement: Certain quantum events such as spontaneous decay seem to be purely random. I trust you see that these random events do not help your argument, and we can agree to set quantum randomness aside]. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 18, 2014
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Hi Upright BiPed
The issue is did you adopt the absurdity (i.e. an event that cannot happen) in order to make your point? Yes, you did. So your point was based on a thing that cannot happen.
I know that you are unable to understand the issue, but for any other readers I'll clarify the reason StephenB lost this argument: 1) SB defines "intelligence" as "the capacity to choose between alternatives for the sake of a specified end" (@151) 2) I know that SB actually means to say "the capacity to freely choose between alternatives for the sake of a specified end", where the word "freely" means "undetermined by antecedent cause". 3) Since SB constantly dodges and tries to deny the metaphysical assumptions of his beliefs, I use a reductio ad absurdum argument to make him be explicit about this assumption of free will. So I take his definition literally, and point out that if that is really what he means by "intelligent", then a river must be intelligent (@154). 4) SB predictably objects, and inists that real "selections" must not be determined, and even throws in another new requirement: that intelligent activity must include "anticipation of consequences" (@160). 5) SB dodges my questions regarding anticipation (which seems to require conscious awareness along with the other new requirements SB keeps adding to his definition of "intelligence") 6) SB also continues to deny the fact that by saying human intelligence is contra-causal, ID is predicated on an unsupported metaphysical conjecture. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 18, 2014
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RDFish:
It lacks any definition that can be used to determine if the “theory” actually matches empirical reality.
You mean it lacks any definition that you will accept. And it has been pointed out that you are willfully ignorant. Willful ignorance cannot be used to point out flaws and yet that is all you are doing. I would love to get you in a Court of Law or in a formal debate in which people could see you for what you are.Joe
August 18, 2014
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Acartia_bogart- The ability to learn is only one aspect of intelligence. No one but the anal retentive sez that to exhibit intelligence one must also entail every aspect of the definition.Joe
August 18, 2014
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RDFish:
What I am claiming is that no scientific theory can be predicated on the claim that either determinism or non-determinism (contra-causal free will) is true.
Sounds like the philosophy of a stoner to me. How about a scientific theory predicated on the claim that we can determine the root cause of the object/ structure/ event under investigation? Or do you also object to the three basic questions that science asks? (what's there? what does it do/ how does it function? and how did it come to be this way/ the way it is?)Joe
August 18, 2014
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Show me where in the process ID "assumes" contra-causality.StephenB
August 18, 2014
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RDF points out the fatal flaws in ID by appeal to things that cannot happen. He is brilliant.Upright BiPed
August 18, 2014
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So, you believe that I abused my power of free will when I insulted you. Actually, everyone believes in free will, including you, but many lie and say they don’t. RDF
The last time I heard someone say something like this was in my first freshman philosophy class – it was from an eighteen year old boy who smoked weed before class. He flunked out.
So, you have no response. As I said, you proved you believe in free will when you complained about my insulting behavior. You know that I could have chosen to be nice and decided not to do it. Case closed.
So let’s just shorten this a bit with something that means the same thing: ID theorizes that biological complexity is best explained by contra-causality. OK?
Sure.
We cannot establish that human choices are contra-causal. Nobody can empirically support the claim that humans’ selections are causally determined, and nobody can empirically support the claim that humans’ selections are NOT causally determined. Both of those claims are metaphysical speculations.
I disagree. There is plenty of evidence to indicate that humans make selections that transcend determinism. However, I don't need to make that case to prove that ID does not assume contra-causality.
And so, once again, it is painfully obvious: According to you, ID rests in the ASSUMPTION that human actions are contra-causal, which is nothing but a metaphysical speculation.
That doesn't follow. Let's take it from the top: 1. We observe FSCI. 2. We ask, "what caused it?" 3. We propose two possible alternatives, determinism and contra-causality. 4. We weight the evidence 5. We conclude, [not assume] that contra-causality is the better explanation of the two. Show me were in that process it is assumed apriori that ID "assumes" contra-causality.StephenB
August 18, 2014
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UB: Do you not remember arguing the ridiculous proposition that ‘rivers make choices’ just so that you could set up an ambush over the definition of intelligence and free will? RD: I remember it quite well – the “ridiculous proposition” was what is known (to anyone who actually understands anything at all about argumentation) as a reductio ad absurdum.
The issue is did you adopt the absurdity (i.e. an event that cannot happen) in order to make your point? Yes, you did. So your point was based on a thing that cannot happen.
RD: According to SB’s initial definition of “intelligence” as “ability to make selections”, rivers are intelligent, which is absurd.
It is also false. Brilliant job of supporting your objections.Upright BiPed
August 18, 2014
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Hi leodp,
Are your own comments the result of deterministic forces?
People have been debating this for millenia. There is no way to resolve the question, either by a priori reasoning or by experiment. I am not personally a determinist, because in my view modern physics has undermined our understanding of deterministic causality (and not just by introducing quantum uncertainty).
If so they only as meaningful as the output of any other machine.
I don't think either of us understand what you mean by this. Why isn't the output of a machine meaningful?
But if your comments are volitional, you refute your own deterministic claims.
Again, I am not claiming determinism. What I am claiming is that no scientific theory can be predicated on the claim that either determinism or non-determinism (contra-causal free will) is true. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 18, 2014
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RD,
Yes, and this is one reason you lose debates (other reasons include the fact that you don’t understand science or philosophy).
Positioning statement
Another reason you lose debates is because you are delusional.
Positioning statement
Gee, sorry to hurt your feelings by pointing out that ID is less scientific than Scientology
Positioning statement
Did you seriously not understand this?
Positioning statement
Are you in grade school?
Positioning statement
Now it’s “haranguing” to point out fatal flaws in ID as science?
Yet, you’ve utterly failed to do so in the past, and you cannot do it now. It appears that we are quickly approaching that point in the conversation where you lose control of yourself and go off on one of your well-documented tirades.Upright BiPed
August 18, 2014
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RDFish:
Since your argument for ID depends entirely on the ASSUMPTION that when human beings design complex machinery, they use their free will, then ID rests on an unprovable metaphysical assumption. QED.
Are your own comments the result of deterministic forces? If so they only as meaningful as the output of any other machine. But if your comments are volitional, you refute your own deterministic claims. Whether your posts are worthwhile reading hinges on this. (My own comments, however good or poor, are volitional. I assume yours are as well. But I'd be relieved of considering them if they are not.)
“The real question is not whether machines think but whether men do. The mystery which surrounds a thinking machine already surrounds a thinking man.” -- B.F. Skinner
leodp
August 18, 2014
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Hi Upright Biped,
I don’t really care what you say
Yes, and this is one reason you lose debates (other reasons include the fact that you don't understand science or philosophy).
you’ve argued the determinist position here...
Nope, I never have - and of course you've failed to find a single quote that suggests I have. Another reason you lose debates is because you are delusional.
...for the expressed purpose that you could harangue ID proponents for proposing non-determinism in the form of libertarian free will.
Now it's "haranguing" to point out fatal flaws in ID as science? Gee, sorry to hurt your feelings by pointing out that ID is less scientific than Scientology :-)
Do you not remember arguing the ridiculous proposition that ‘rivers make choices’ just so that you could set up an ambush over the definition of intelligence and free will?
I remember it quite well - the "ridiculous proposition" was what is known (to anyone who actually understands anything at all about argumentation) as a reductio ad absurdum. According to SB's initial definition of "intelligence" as "ability to make selections", rivers are intelligent, which is absurd. So he immediately began changing his definition - adding the requirements of non-determinism and anticipation. Did you seriously not understand this? Are you in grade school?
Thus the output of such systems is not derivable from the input, and your position on non-determinism is thereby eviscerated of all its force.... You now want to pretend that you can’t even understand what I am saying....
Hahahahaha - I assure you that I'm not pretending. The fact that you refuse to answer any of the clarifying questions I've asked makes it clear that you don't understand what you're saying either. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 18, 2014
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NO! I have never argued this!
Oh the outrage! I don’t really care what you say you are RD, you’ve argued the determinist position here for the expressed purpose that you could harangue ID proponents for proposing non-determinism in the form of libertarian free will. Do you not remember arguing the ridiculous proposition that ‘rivers make choices’ just so that you could set up an ambush over the definition of intelligence and free will? Here is what that looks like:
RDF: Yes, [rivers] do make selections. A river could choose any path to the sea, but of all the possible paths, it selects the lowest one. Instead of just insisting that these are not “selections”, you’ll need to actually explain why not.
In turn, I presented the fact that the translation of information requires a local independence from determinism in order for the process to function. The translation of information requires a physical discontinuity between the input of a medium and the output of an effect, and the system must preserve that discontinuity in order to function. Thus the output of such systems is not derivable from the input, and your position on non-determinism is thereby eviscerated of all its force. You now want to pretend that you can’t even understand what I am saying. Unfortunately it’s too late for that, RD. You not only understood what was being said to you, but you repeated it back to me and affirmed the observation.Upright BiPed
August 18, 2014
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Hi William J Murray, Perhaps you missed my last post to you: It shows you were mistaken on each of your points, including that I am somehow hyperskeptical. I repost this for your convenience, though I doubt you will respond. It is the typical pattern here - reply only until you're backed into a corner, then when you've lost, move on and pretend it never happend :-) ============== Rather than even attempt to respond to what I write, you now simply defer to others who haven’t read my posts or tried to understand my arguments. You ask “What does evolution mean?” It means change. What does Darwinian evolution mean? It means population change over time by means of random mutation and natural selection. What does natural selection mean? It means disproportionate reproduction due to heritable changes. What does random mutation mean? It means changes in heritable traits that are not correlated with reproductive advantage. I don’t even believe that evolutionary theory is true at all, yet each of its terms are defined quite clearly and precisely. In fact, the only way I could determine that evolutionary claims were false was because it was stated in a way that can be evaluated! You ask “What does it mean when biologists claim evolution is not a “guided” process?” I don’t think that means anything at all, and I object when they say that. Guided by what, I ask? However, this statement is not part of the explanation offered by evolutionary biology – it is a gratuitous and non-scientific statement that stupidly finds its way into textbooks. Should we run through the entire scientific lexicon to find every term that is subject to variant definitions and concepts within the scientific community and toss out all science conducted using terms that have no “single, canonical” definition? When those terms serve as an explanatory construct of a theory, then YES, by all means! Of course! Otherwise, we would have no science at all. So no, mine is not hyper skepticism in any form – quite the opposite. I recognize that scientific progress is the result of careful observation and unambiguous explanation, which has enabled us to actually determine which of our scientific beliefs are true. Science can’t address all questions by any means, but those it can are answered with a unique level of certainty. ID fans know this quite well, which is exactly why you are desperate to confer the prestige of scientific status upon your religious beliefs. Box asks “One wonders if RDFish is willing to accept “energy” as a scientific definition”. What a very telling question! Every concept in physics is defined with perfect rigor, without a hint of ambiguity. Energy is defined in terms of its effects (as I explained to StephenB in this very thread), and in such a way that predictions can be made and tested and confirmed – to thirteen significant digits! The point Feynmann was making is not that energy isn’t defined scientifically – it is that we can no longer intuitively conceptualize the rigorous, formal definitions that science has developed. That is the exact opposite of the case with ID – all ID has is a vague, ineffable intuitive conception of mind, which is entirely unsuited as any sort of scientific explanation. It lacks any definition that can be used to determine if the “theory” actually matches empirical reality. I know you won’t try and read and understand what I’ve read here – your eyes and minds are closed by the horror you feel that your religious certainty rests on quicksand. But I’m not challenging your religious beliefs. Just because ID isn’t a scientific endeavor doesn’t mean that it is wrong or stupid or crazy. While you rail angrily at “materialists” and “atheists” and “naturalists” and attack them as irrational fools, I have no such animus toward religious believers. I merely point out, over and over, in ways that are never discounted by rational discourse here, that it is foolish to think that these religious beliefs can be supported by empirical science. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 18, 2014
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Querius: "A-B, 'Anyone can verify what you wrote...' Yes they can. And I welcome anyone to follow that thread if they would like. But if you are going to use this argument to refuse to answer any uncomfortable question that I have, you only look like a little boy who puts his fingers in his ears and shouts 'I can't hear you, I can't hear you'. But, fair enough. Don't answer my question. However, RDFish agreed with my point. I welcome you to respond to his comment instead of mine. We both know that you won't because it would require a redefinition of intelligence (removing the need to learn) or a redefinition of god (take away his omniscient status).Acartia_bogart
August 18, 2014
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LoL! Everything RDFish posts seems like it comes from an 18 year old dope smoker attempting to be philosophical.
According to you, ID rests in the ASSUMPTION that human actions are contra-causal, which is nothing but a metaphysical speculation.
See? If that isn't from an 18 year old smoking dope and trying to be philosophical, what is? Just once I would love to see RDFish produce some science that supports his trope. Why is it that he never supports anything and yet people seem to have the need to refute him? Just channel Hitchens- until he produces the evidence he can be ignored and/ or ridiculed.Joe
August 18, 2014
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Hi StephenB,
So, you believe that I abused my power of free will when I insulted you. Actually, everyone believes in free will, including you, but many lie and say they don’t.
The last time I heard someone say something like this was in my first freshman philosophy class - it was from an eighteen year old boy who smoked weed before class. He flunked out.
RDF: You DEFINE “intelligence” as mental cause that transcends determinism, that is to say, free will. SB: ID’s inferential process does not concern itself with metaphysical constructs such as free will.
Your response is a non-sequitur. I just said that you DEFINE "intelligence" is a cause that is not determined by physical cause. You have said this over and over again. A cause that transcends determinism is known as "free will". If you don't like that term - if it has some other connotation for you - let's call it "contra-causality" - ok?
RDF: You THEORIZE that free will [or contra-causality] is the cause of biological complexity. SB: ID Theorizes that this or that organism is the product of an intelligent agent (which I define as something or someone that selects among alternatives for a purpose).
AND you define "select" as an action that is not determined by physical cause. In other words, you say that this or that organism is the product of something that acts in a way that is not determined by physical cause. So let's just shorten this a bit with something that means the same thing: ID theorizes that biological complexity is best explained by contra-causality. OK?
As long as it is phrased in those behavioristic terms, it is scientific. If free will is added to the mix, it is no longer science.
Again: what I meant by "free will" was nothing other than "contra-causality", by which all I mean is "not determined by physical cause". You are drawing distinctions here that I don't intend, so I'm happy to use whatever terms you'd like to express your view that ID theorizes that biological complexity is best explained by contra-causality. Can we agree on that wording? To save time, I will assume that you will agree with that wording. Now that we've wasted all that effort on saying the very same thing, we're back to where we started: We cannot establish that human choices are contra-causal. Nobody can empirically support the claim that humans' selections are causally determined, and nobody can empirically support the claim that humans' selections are NOT causally determined. Both of those claims are metaphysical speculations. And so, once again, it is painfully obvious: According to you, ID rests in the ASSUMPTION that human actions are contra-causal, which is nothing but a metaphysical speculation. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 18, 2014
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Hi UprightBiped,
You’ve argued that everything is the result of determinism.
NO! I have never argued this! What is wrong with you? Point to a single sentence that I've written that says I am a determinist... tick tock tick tock... ooops! You can't find one! No wonder you are unable to communicate in a debate - you have no idea what I've been saying. I am not a determinist, never have been. Good grief - you are so lost in your own little world you can't understand anything that anyone else says.
In return, I’ve highlighted for you the translation of information, where the output of the system cannot be derived from the input by deterministic forces.
No, you've done no such thing. You have this weird, idiosyncratic notion that representational systems somehow constitute a proof of non-deterministic causation, but you are unable to articulate it, and you certainly can't point to anyone else in the world who shares your views with the ability to explain them. I think we're done, UB. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 18, 2014
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Querius @278, Thank you. Yes, you are right. The response is predictable. Fortunately, the alert reader can separate the wheat from the chaff.StephenB
August 18, 2014
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StephenB, Nicely stated. Unfortunately, all we're going to get is money poo thrown at us. LOL FWIW, I enjoyed your response. -QQuerius
August 17, 2014
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A-B, Anyone can verify what you wrote in https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/why-do-we-need-to-make-a-decision-about-common-descent-anyway/#comments No, it wasn't a typo, and you can't admit to not understanding the binomial theorem as it pertains to both simultaneous and sequential events. In #86, you wrote
Querius, the reason that I haven’t answered your question is because it is not relevant. But since you insist. 1/6 and 1/7, respectively.
Then when in 73, even wd400 questioned your answer, you wrote in 75:
Sorry WD200. Big thumb, small buttons. It should have been 1/6. After all, there are only six faces on a die.
So, what you claimed was that you actually meant to write was "Querius, the reason that I haven’t answered your question is because it is not relevant. But since you insist. 1/6 and 1/6, respectively." And I responded
Respectively? Methinks you’re a weasel.
Now I normally wouldn't make a big deal about someone's math error---probability can be a bit tricky---but you made such a big deal out of Michael Behe's math, which you characterized as
The difference between the statistics behind evolutionary theory, and Behe’s voodoo magic pseudostatistics is that one is defensible and testable. And the other one is creationism.
And since you claimed your education was in Biology and Statistics, I thought I'd give you a little test. You got the second answer wrong, and then made it worse by claiming that it was a typo. Maybe it's time you admitted that 1. You were wrong to level mathematically baseless charges and vituperation against Michael Behe's math, which seems to have been validated experimentally. 2. You made a mistake, and that the binomial theorem doesn't care whether cumulative probabilities are simultaneous or sequential. 3. You goofed on the second part of the problem I gave you. 4. You might not actually have a degree in Statistics. But you can't bring yourself to do that, right? The reason I won't argue with you about intelligence and God, is that even if I logically prove my point to you, anyone can see that you'll never ever admit to it. That's what I love about math. It's got such finality to it! Your cook is goosed, my friend. ;-) -QQuerius
August 17, 2014
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RDF
If you’d spare us your pedantic sophistry and insults (not only are you wrong, and annoying, but you’re not even very clever at them), we might stand a chance of getting to the heart of where you go wrong. But I suppose that is why you keep it up – so you don’t actually have to admit your folly.
LOL: So, you believe that I abused my power of free will when I insulted you. Actually, everyone believes in free will, including you, but many lie and say they don’t.
You DEFINE “intelligence” as mental cause that transcends determinism, that is to say, free will.
ID’s inferential process does not concern itself with metaphysical constructs such as free will. If you think it does, show me where. Make your case. Provide the quotes from ID luminaries. Provide any evidence at all. So far, you have given me nothing.
You THEORIZE that free will is the cause of biological complexity.
ID Theorizes that this or that organism is the product of an intelligent agent (which I define as something or someone that selects among alternatives for a purpose). As long as it is phrased in those behavioristic terms, it is scientific. If free will is added to the mix, it is no longer science. You claim with apodictic certainty that the process of selecting among alternatives is synonymous with free will. Prove it.
Now, here’s the hard part, so put your thinking cap on (assuming you haven’t lost it years ago
I am not the one who got busted. I am not the one who had to be corrected for conflating definitions with assumptions and metaphysical speculations. I am not the one who had to be corrected for thinking that something must be detected in order to be defined. It is you who are carrying around a truckload full of unwarranted assumptions.
Why is human action supposed to be your evidence that free will accounts for biological complexity?
Are you still on that free-will kick?
Because you ASSUME that human activity proceeds from free will! OBVIOUSLY if human beings did NOT possess free will, then human activity would not be evidence that free will was the cause of biological complexity!
My convictions about ID are based solely on empirical observation. Whenever I observe FCSI, I notice that it comes from intelligent activity. Also, don't forget that I know what I mean when I use that word. As we discovered, you don't know what you mean when you use that same word. However, if you want to discuss the philosophy of free will sometime, I will be happy to do so. Now that we know you believe in free will in spite of yourself, given your complaints about my “insulting” behavior, we will surely make rapid progress.StephenB
August 17, 2014
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Claudius,
He has only argued that non-determinism (‘libertarian free will’) is not an empirically warranted position.
He has argued "things can transcend determinism or they can’t". In return, I have shown him that non-determinism (regardless of his speculation on free will) is an empirically-supported position. He affirmed the evidence against his best interest, and now wants move on without acknowledging its impact on his claim.Upright BiPed
August 17, 2014
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Querius: "I’m afraid I’ll have to agree with RDFish on this snippet. There’s at least one other, even more embarrassing set of posts in which, after showering Michael Behe’s math in The Edge of Evolution with unsupported vituperation, and claiming to be a biologist and statistician, A-B incorrectly answered a simple probability question that I put forward involving the binomial theorum. So much for credibility." The fact that you won't accept the fact that I made a typo is your problem. In spite of the fact that a 1 in 7 probability on the roll of a die is impossible. But that doesn't have anything to do with my claim that a definition of intelligence that requires the ability to learn would rule out an omniscient god. Please answer the question at hand. Keeping in mind that this is not a problem at all for an ID theory that does not require a god. As the official ID propaganda claims.Acartia_bogart
August 17, 2014
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