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Do we need a context to identify a message as the product of an intelligent being?

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In today’s short post, I shall argue that (a) there are at least some messages which we can identify as the product of an intelligent agent, regardless of their linguistic and social context, and (b) there is no context in which it would be reasonable for us to conclude that a message visible to everyone was a hallucination.

What prompted this discussion

In a post titled Signature in the cell?, Professor Edward Feser argued that no message, in and of itself, could warrant the inference that it was the product of an intelligent agent, without a knowledge of the context of the message. Referring to the hypothetical scenario in which a “Made by Yahweh” message was discovered in every human being’s cells, Feser wrote:

If we’re to judge that Yahweh, rather than extraterrestrial pranksters, hallucination, or some other cause, was behind such an event, it is considerations other than the event itself that will justify us in doing so.

The reference to “hallucination, or some other cause” (presumably a natural one) as a possible explanation for the “Made by Yahweh” message in every human being’s cells led me to infer that Feser was acknowledging the legitimacy of a hyper-skeptical stance here – a position for which I criticized him in a subsequent post. Feser wrote a follow-up post in reply, in which he clarified his position:

I neither said nor implied that it would be “perfectly rational” to interpret phrases like the ones in question [e.g. the “Made by Yahweh” message in every cell – VJT] as hallucinations or as something other than a product of intelligence… What I said is that determining what to make of such weird events would crucially depend on epistemic background context, and that if we concluded that God was responsible (as of course we well might), then that epistemic background context would be doing more work in justifying that judgment than the weird events themselves would be.

In a comment attached to a recent post on Professor Feser’s Website, I pressed him to answer two simple questions of mine:

…[A]s an ID theorist, I happen to think it’s absolutely obvious that we can identify some messages as the work of an intelligent designer, regardless of context… From my reading of your [earlier] post, it seemed to me that you were saying that context was essential when drawing the inference that a message was the work of an intelligent agent. I would profoundly disagree.

I’d like to bury the hatchet, so I’ll ask you two questions:

1. Do you agree that if a message saying “Made by _____” were discovered in every human’s cells, it would be irrational to explain away the discovery as a mass hallucination, regardless of whether the message referred to God, Quetzalcoatl, or Steve Jobs as its author?

2. Do you agree that if the message were suitably long and specific (say, 100 characters of perfectly grammatical English with no repetition), it would be irrational not to ascribe the message to an intelligent agent, regardless of the message’s context?

As we’ll see below, Feser’s answer to both questions was “No.”
Feser replied:

…[O]ther readers have already pointed out what is wrong with your questions. Of course context would be relevant to interpreting such messages. Now, I can easily imagine contexts in which it would be extremely unreasonable to say “Oh, this is a hallucination” and I can easily imagine contexts in which it would not be. If we describe various possible contexts in enough detail, we can certainly see how they would make a clear answer possible. That’s why there’s nothing remotely skeptical about what I said. Give us a specific context and sure, we can decide “This suggested interpretation is just indefensible” or “That suggested interpretation is extremely plausible.” But it’s silly to say “Let’s abstract from all context and then ask what the most probable source of the phrase is.” As Mike Flynn pointed out above, there’s no such thing as the most probable source absent all context.

Feser continued:

BTW, Vincent’s attempt to wriggle out of the problem context poses for his position is like certain point-missing attempts to solve the “commonsense knowledge problem” in AI [artificial intelligence – VJT]. As Hubert Dreyfus argues, it makes no sense to think that intelligence can be reduced to a set of explicitly formulated rules and representations, because there are always various context-dependent ways to interpret the rules and representations. To say “Oh, we’ll just put the ‘right’ interpretation into the rules and representations” completely misses the point, since it just adds further rules and representations that are themselves subject to alternative context-dependent interpretations.

Vincent is doing something similar when he tries to come up with these goofy examples of really long messages written in the cell. It completely misses the point, because that’s just further stuff the import of which depends on a larger context. It also completely misses the point to shout “Skepticism!”, just as an AI defender would be completely missing the point if he accused Dreyfus of being a skeptic. There’s nothing skeptical about it. We can know what the context is and thus we can know what the right interpretation is; we just can’t know the right interpretation apart from all context.

What is a context, anyway?

Remarkably, nowhere in his post does Professor Feser attempt to define what he means by a context – a curious omission. So I’m going to go with a standard dictionary definition: “the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.” I should mention that there is another definition for context: “the parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning.” However, in the case under consideration, we are looking at a short isolated message, with nothing preceding or following it. So the questions we need to confront are: do we need to attend to “the circumstances that form the setting” for the purported message, in order to rationally conclude that it is (a) not a collective hallucination we are all having, and (b) from an intelligent source? Feser contends that we do, and I maintain that we do not.

Feser’s absurd epistemic claim: there are some contexts in which hallucination may be a reasonable explanation for the discovery of a purported message in every human’s cells

I’d like to go back to a remark Feser made above:

Of course context would be relevant to interpreting such messages. Now, I can easily imagine contexts in which it would be extremely unreasonable to say “Oh, this is a hallucination” and I can easily imagine contexts in which it would not be.

What Feser is saying here is that there are at least some contexts in which it would not be unreasonable [i.e. it might be reasonable] for us to conclude that a purported message discovered by scientists in every human being’s cells was in fact a hallucination. This, I have to say, is outright nonsense.

In order to see why it’s nonsense, let’s imagine a scenario which is as generous to Professor Feser’s case as it is possible to be. Let’s suppose that a worldwide magnetic storm is playing havoc with people’s brains, causing them to hallucinate. It has been claimed that magnetic stimulation of the brain can trigger religious hallucinations, although the evidence for this claim is very thin. But let’s suppose for argument’s sake that this claim is true. During the magnetic storm, some scientists suddenly announce the discovery of a “Made by Yahweh” message in every human being’s cells. Other scientists around the world rush to confirm the claim. Could they all be seeing things in their laboratories? Could mass hallucination be a rational explanation for this sudden discovery of what appears to be a message in our cells?

No, it couldn’t – unless all the world’s scientists have not only started hallucinating, but lost their ability to reason, as well. But that wasn’t the scenario envisaged by Feser: his assertion that he can imagine at least some contexts where it would not be unreasonable to conclude that a purported message was a hallucination presupposes that the people drawing this conclusion still possess the use of reason, even in these far-fetched contexts.

One obvious way in which scientists could confirm that the message was real – even during a magnetic storm that was playing havoc with their perceptions – would be to use double-blind testing, with a control sample of similar-looking cells (say, synthetic cells, or perhaps cells from another species) that did not contain the “Made by Yahweh” message. (A control sample of synthetic cells might contain no message at all, or alternatively, a different message – “Made by Craig Venter” – might be inserted into the cells.) If testing on different scientists produced consistent results – e.g. if they all reported seeing the same message in the same cells – then the hallucination hypothesis would be decisively ruled out, as an explanation.

Interpretation is not the same thing as decoding: why the commonsense knowledge problem is irrelevant to the Intelligent Design project

In his reply to my questions, Feser alluded to the work of AI researcher Hubert Dreyfus, who in a book titled Mind over Machine (Free Press, 1986) which he co-authored with Stuart Dreyfus, defined the commonsense knowledge problem as “how to store and access all the facts human beings seem to know” (1986, p. 78). As Wikipedia notes, “The problem is considered to be among the hardest in all of AI research because the breadth and detail of commonsense knowledge is enormous.”

As we’ve seen, Feser contends that because the correct interpretation of a rule invariably requires contextual knowledge, any attempt to infer that a purported message is in fact the product of an intelligent agent, apart from all context, is doomed to failure. But what Feser is assuming here is that the identification of a purported message as the work of an intelligent agent requires a correct interpretation of that message. As an Intelligent Design advocate, I disagree: all it requires is the decoding of that message, and it may not even require that. (If the message could be independently shown to be both highly specific and astronomically improbable, I believe it would be rational to infer on these grounds alone that an intelligent agent was most likely responsible for producing the alleged message, even if we had no idea what it was about.) Hence Professor Feser’s assertion that “we just can’t know the right interpretation apart from all context” is beside the point.

Decoding a message is very easy, if it is written in the script of a language we already understand: all we need to do is read each word of the script and confirm that it conforms to the grammatical and spelling rules of the language in question. Depending on the language in question, the code we use when reading the words – something we all learned to do at school – may be either a phonic code (for alphabetic scripts), a syllabic code, a logographic code (for ideograms) or a pictographic code. Even if sentence turns out to be grammatically correct, but semantically nonsensical, like Noam Chomsky’s “Colorless green ideas sleep furiously”, decoding it is still a relatively straightforward affair. And if we found such a message inscribed on the walls of every human cell, we should have no hesitation in concluding that some intelligent agent was responsible, even if we didn’t know who that agent was.

(Note: I should like to make it clear that I do not regard people’s ability to read texts written in their own native language as part of the context of a purported message in that language. Defining “context” in this way would make the term absurdly broad. Rather, I would see the ability to read a language as a presupposition of there being any messages in that language at all. The term “context” refers to circumstances that help us understand the meaning of a message, and does not include the ability to decode a script.)

Decoding a message is harder when it is written in a language we understand, but where the message is encrypted, using a cipher. In such cases, we might think that at least some background knowledge was essential, in order to decode the message. However, there have been occasions when ciphers were reconstructed through the power of pure deduction – for example, the German Lorenz cipher and the Japanese Purple code. Having successfully decoded the message, it would be the very height of irrationality not to ascribe the message to an intelligent agent, even if we knew nothing of the message’s context. For instance, the message might say, “The weather is sunny,” but in spy-talk that might really mean: “The coast is clear: we can proceed with our plan.” But even if we had no idea of the message’s true import, we could still legitimately infer that it originated from an intelligent source, once we had decoded it.

When the message is written in an unknown language, decoding is complicated by the mathematical fact that there’s always some cipher that can be used to transform an unknown message into any string of English characters you want. This point was made by one of my critics, named Scott, who argued: “100 characters of perfectly grammatical English wouldn’t look like any such thing to anyone who didn’t already read English. For that matter, given a hundred of anything, there’s some cipher according to which the series encodes any 100-character string you care to choose.” In practice, successful decoding of scripts in unknown languages, such as Linear A (used in Crete over 3,000 years ago), relies heavily on context-related clues. The question then arises: what should we conclude if astronauts found what appeared to be an inscription in an unknown language on the Moon or Mars? Without a context of any sort, could we still make the inference that the inscription came from an intelligent source?

I believe we can. A simple illustration will suffice. In 2013, two scientists writing in the journal Icarus argued that there were patterns in the genetic code of living organisms that were highly statistically significant, with features indicative of intelligence which were inconsistent with any known natural process. (The authors of the paper, Vladimir I. Cherbak of al-Farabi Kazakh National University of Kazakhstan, and Maxim A. Makukov of the Fesenkov Astrophysical Institute, list several categories of natural processes, and they are clearly familiar with the relevant scientific literature on the subject.) “Simple arrangements of the code reveal an ensemble of arithmetical and ideographical patterns of symbolic language,” they wrote. These features included decimal notation, logical transformation and the abstract symbol zero. Summing up, the authors argued:

In total, not only the signal itself reveals intelligent-like features – strict nucleon equalities, their decimal notation, logical transformation accompanying the equalities, the symbol of zero and semantic symmetries, but the very method of its extraction involved abstract operations – consideration of idealized (free and unmodified) molecules, distinction between their blocks and chains, the activation key, contraction and decomposition of codons. We find that taken together all these aspects point at artificial nature of the patterns.

The authors tentatively concluded that the decimal system in the genetic code “was invented outside the Solar System already several billions (sic) years ago.” (H/t: Max for correction to my wording.)

Regardless of whether the authors’ claims turn out to be true or not – and I’m not holding my breath – the point is that the identification of the signal they claimed to find in our genetic code was made on purely mathematical grounds, apart from all considerations of context. In order to rule out a natural (as opposed to artificial) source for the message, the only thing the authors needed to ascertain was whether it could be accounted for by known natural causes. One could always hypothesize the existence of a natural cause capable of generating these mathematical features, but the authors argue that the only reasonable inference to draw is that the signal they claim to find in the genetic code is an artificial one, generated by an intelligent source.

(I should point out here that our knowledge of what natural processes are capable of generating is not contextual knowledge, but scientific knowledge. As I stated above, the term “context” properly refers to circumstances that help us understand the meaning of a message. Our knowledge of processes occurring in Nature does not help us to do that.)

I conclude, then, that Professor Feser’s contention that the identification of a purported message as the product of an intelligent source cannot be made, apart from all context, is baseless and incorrect. I hope that Professor Feser will be gracious enough to acknowledge this in the future.

Comments
Upright BiPed @ 272
RD, You’ve argued that everything is the result of determinism.
No he hasn't. He has only argued that non-determinism ('libertarian free will') is not an empirically warranted position.CLAVDIVS
August 17, 2014
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Why do you refuse to say what you believe is the cause of biological complexity, and ignore all of my clarifying questions? You prattle on about discontinuities, but refuse to relate it to the topic at hand. What is wrong with you?
RD, You’ve argued that everything is the result of determinism. In return, I’ve highlighted for you the translation of information, where the output of the system cannot be derived from the input by deterministic forces. The system requires a physicochemical discontinuity between the input and output, and it preserves that discontinuity in order to function. You cannot find a flaw in that argument, and indeed you’ve affirmed it in your previous post. You are now intent on changing the subject, or otherwise diverting attention away from the failure of your claim. The most surprising aspect of this exchange is that you apparently believe an act of sheer determination on your part will make this less obvious.Upright BiPed
August 17, 2014
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RDF #211: Every concept in physics is defined with perfect rigor, without a hint of ambiguity.
Kairosfocus refutes this ridiculous statement in post #209 and #212. Of course RDFish refuses to take notice. From the same post:
RDF #211: Energy is defined in terms of its effects (...)
which is fine by RDFish. However his case against ID is based on his erroneous notion that intelligence can only be defined by ... its effect (CSI).Box
August 17, 2014
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RDFish:
...then ID rests on an unprovable metaphysical assumption.
So? RDFish, Since your argument against ID depends entirely on the ASSUMPTION that when human beings design complex experiments and mathematical models they use their free will, well, then, your objection to ID is purely metaphysical and unprovable. QEDMung
August 17, 2014
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lol Our very own Eugene Goostman.Mung
August 17, 2014
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Hi Upright Biped, Why do you refuse to say what you believe is the cause of biological complexity, and ignore all of my clarifying questions? You prattle on about discontinuities, but refuse to relate it to the topic at hand. What is wrong with you? Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 17, 2014
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Hi StephenB, If you'd spare us your pedantic sophistry and insults (not only are you wrong, and annoying, but you're not even very clever at them), we might stand a chance of getting to the heart of where you go wrong. But I suppose that is why you keep it up - so you don't actually have to admit your folly. You DEFINE "intelligence" as mental cause that transcends determinism, that is to say, free will. You THEORIZE that free will is the cause of biological complexity. Your EVIDENCE is that human beings are the only known cause of that sort of complexity (CSI, FSCI, call it whatever you want). Now, here's the hard part, so put your thinking cap on (assuming you haven't lost it years ago): Why is human action supposed to be your evidence that free will accounts for biological complexity? Because you ASSUME that human activity proceeds from free will! OBVIOUSLY if human beings did NOT possess free will, then human activity would not be evidence that free will was the cause of biological complexity! Since your argument for ID depends entirely on the ASSUMPTION that when human beings design complex machinery, they use their free will, then ID rests on an unprovable metaphysical assumption. QED. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 17, 2014
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RD,
It seems like you’re asking me if I can account for the bird’s ability to coordinate its landing without reference to the structural and functional organization of the bird’s brain and body. If that is the question, my answer is: No, it should be obvious that nobody could do that. The bird does indeed use its complex brain in order to achieve its aerial skills.
Then your answer is “no”, and you have affirmed the discontinuity. The discontinuity exists, and is preserved by the organization of the system. You cannot derive the product of information from the arrangement of the medium via physical law, you can only derive it from the organization of the system that translates information. Therefore, there are temporal effects in the natural world which are not derivable from physical law, yet their appearance does not violate physical law.Upright BiPed
August 17, 2014
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RDFish, saying "Intelligence of an unknown sort" produced it tells investigators quite a bit. If you had any experience with investigations into a root cause you would understand that much. What it tells us: 1- That entire classes of possible causes have been eliminated 2- That known sources of intelligent agencies have also been eliminated 3- That we are not alone
1) There is no indication that animals who perform these feats of perception and agility are somehow operating outside the boundaries of physics.
Physics doesn't explain immaterial information- you know, that stuff the physical brain allegedly processes. Computers operate within the boundaries of physics however physics doesn't explain the computer nor its software.Joe
August 17, 2014
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RDF
When I ask you why you deny [that rivers make selections], you say because rivers’ actions are determined (and then you also throw an additional requirement that intelligent activity requires “anticipation”).
The flow of a river is determined by physical laws. There are no "selections" because there are no other options to select.
Your “scientific” definition requires that intelligent activity transcend determinism.
Of course. I trust that point is obvious to everyone.
Your definition of intelligence entails the existence of something that is nothing but metaphysical speculation.
No it doesn't. Not even close. Let's take it from the top: Earlier, I had to explain to you the difference between a definition and an assumption, complete with a dictionary account of both words. One key difference is that a definition clarifies the meaning of term, while an assumption indicates a belief in the truth of what has been defined. Accordingly, the two words cannot, as you seem not to understand, be used interchangeably. Now, I find that I must take you through the process all over again and explain the difference between a definition and a metaphysical speculation. Again, a definition provides clarity for the meaning of a term, while a metaphysical speculation indicates a belief in the truth of what has been defined. Thus, you can't use those two terms interchangeably. (This ties in with your equally serious error of claiming that nothing can be defined unless it has been detected or shown to exist). I sincerely hope that you can now grasp the point. I am sure everyone else does. The lesson here is to refrain from substituting one word for another for the purpose of misleading your reader.StephenB
August 17, 2014
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Hi StephenB, You haven't yet responded to my post where I point out why your definition of ID means that ID rests on metaphysical speculation. Here is another way to understand this: Imagine I had a theory that said X-force was responsible for biological complexity. You ask me what X-force is, and I explain that X-force produces CSI by deterministic means. You complain that science has no knowledge of any deterministic process that produces CSI, so my X-force theory is nothing but metaphysical speculation. You would be correct. But you have a theory called ID that says "intelligent activity" is responsible for biological complexity, and when I ask you what "intelligent activity" is, you say that it is something that produces CSI by non-deterministic means. I complain that science has no knowledge of anything that produces CSI by non-deterministic means, so your ID theory is nothing but metaphysical speculation. I am correct. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 17, 2014
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Hi UprightBiped,
Can you use physical law to derive “open your claws” from the pattern of neural impulse in her optical nerve? If you can’t do so without recourse to the organization of the translation apparatus
It seems like you're asking me if I can account for the bird's ability to coordinate its landing without reference to the structural and functional organization of the bird's brain and body. If that is the question, my answer is: No, it should be obvious that nobody could do that. The bird does indeed use its complex brain in order to achieve its aerial skills.
If there is a physicochemical discontinuity between the arrangement of an informational medium and its post-translation effect, then is the product of information derivable from physical law, or is it only derivable from the systems that translate information?
Sorry but you still haven't made your point. The bird's physical brain processes information and controls its muscles, and that is how it flies and lands. It is a mystery how this complex system, with its feedback loops and control systems, came to exist. How do you think it came to exist? Again, we are not really making progress in this. Again, my suggestion would be that instead of asking these question, you try to say exactly what it is you mean. I tried to make my view very clear in the previous post. Do you have any question about what I think? If so, I'll do my best to answer. I do not understand what you think, however. Please answer my questions: Do you think that anything that occurs while the bird is landing transcends physical law? Or instead are you talking about how the bird's brain came to exist? Or are you talking about something else entirely? Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 17, 2014
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You’ve brought up this bird-landing scenario before, and I’m afraid neither you nor I have any idea what you’re going on about. I tried to understand it before, but your bad temper and poor communication skills prevented any progress. I’m feeling patient, though, so let’s try again.
This is nothing more than a positioning statement. Can you use physical law to derive “open your claws” from the pattern of neural impulse in her optical nerve? If you can’t do so without recourse to the organization of the translation apparatus, then you affirm the discontinuity – and I’ve already told you why it is necessary. If there is a physicochemical discontinuity between the arrangement of an informational medium and its post-translation effect, then is the product of information derivable from physical law, or is it only derivable from the systems that translate information?Upright BiPed
August 17, 2014
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Hi Upright Biped, You've brought up this bird-landing scenario before, and I'm afraid neither you nor I have any idea what you're going on about. I tried to understand it before, but your bad temper and poor communication skills prevented any progress. I'm feeling patient, though, so let's try again. First, there is a matter of some distinction between being derivable from physical law vs. something acting according to physical law. Second, there is a matter of the act of the bird coordinating her landing vs. the origin of the physical apparatus (her brain, nerves, and so on) that allows her to do so. So to clear things up, I'll tell you what I believe about these things, and then perhaps you can try to say what you believe, and we'll see where our disagreement lies. In my view: 1) There is no indication that animals who perform these feats of perception and agility are somehow operating outside the boundaries of physics. 2) How the exquisitely complex, functional apparatus of their brains and bodies came to exist is deeply mysterious, since it is unreasonable to believe that random variation and natural selection could possibly assemble such a mechanism, even given the vast time scales and mating populations available. This just recapitulates the ID debate - it doesn't seem to actually bear directly upon the problem that StephenB had with his definition of intelligence. Stephen wants to define "intelligence" as "the ability to make choices that are not physically determined". In other words, according to Stephen, when I select a Coke vs. a Pepsi, something about that choice transcends any set of physical antecedents. My point to Stephen was that's fine, but there is no scientific evidence that our choices (or anything else) proceed in a contra-causal fashion like that. It seems (I'm guessing) that your argument seems relevant to you because you can't imagine how my ability to choose a Pepsi, or a bird's ability to land on a fencepost - could possibly have arisen by any means that did not, at some point, transcend physical causality. My response to that is twofold: 1) Neither of us has any idea how these complex structures (e.g. brains) came to exist, but throwing out the term "intelligence" provides precisely zero information regarding the solution to this mystery. 2) It is clear that we humans do not understand the totality of physics, and so to say that something transcends "inexorable law" simply means that our current limited and incomplete understanding of how reality operates can't account for it. It does not mean that some human-like mind with conscious beliefs, desires, and intents was responsible for designing bird brains. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 17, 2014
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No one believes in determinism. It's simply used a rhetorical ploy.Mung
August 17, 2014
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Querius quoting Fish "An omniscient God would know A-B would write his post before he wrote it, of course. After all, doesn't God exist outside of space and time?" This is as bad as A.B. religious assumptions of what a god and any god would or wouldn't do. Omniscient or not omniscient. How do they know ? They couldn't possibly know since it would be impossible to experiment for. This goes along with the thread from the Salon article which contains a laundry list of "if there were really a creator, this is what he wouldn't do". How do they know, what experiment did they used to arrive at such conclusions scientifically and is it possible for any of us to duplicate that experiment to draw the same conclusions as them ? Acartia_bogart "This is why it is critical for ID to clearly define the boundaries by which intelligence is defined." Is it equally critical to define what is meant by blind undirected unguided forces and how they create intelligence from nothing ? For the most part, everyone already is aware of what intelligence is [minus the definition shell games], that is why ID deals with inference of any design. Beyond that, anything exact would be impossible since no one was around at the beginning. But inference for intelligence behind the designs in Nature are 100%, where blind unguided forces thus far gets 0%. That's where religion and faith come in playing a heavy role and it takes greater religion and faith to adhere to your position than ID.DavidD
August 17, 2014
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RDFish opines
I think Querius needs to brush up on his theology. An omniscient God would know A-B would write his post before he wrote it, of course. After all, doesn’t God exist outside of space and time?
When you change frames of reference from our temporal one to an eternal one, tricky things can happen. For example, without time, can there be causality? The Bible says in Isaiah 55 (NASB translation)
Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon. “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts. “For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, And do not return there without watering the earth And making it bear and sprout, And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater; So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.
My very loose paraphrase would be You and everyone else are basically evil, but if you return to God and confess your sins rather than rationalizing them, God is willing to forgive you. God is a whole lot smarter than you, and your head would explode before you could understand how God thinks, so cut out the anthropomorphic crap. Instead, consider an analogy with the hydrologic cycle (that you're not credited with knowing about), trust the Word of God instead of your own limited and pathetic attempts at philosophy. The results are abundant life both with water and my Word. -QQuerius
August 17, 2014
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RD, You assume that anything that is not derivable from physical law has therefore violated physical law. Okay. A bird flies up to a fencepost to land on it. As the bird approaches, she sees the fence post coming into range and opens her claws at the exact point in time to grasp it. Can you use physical law to derive “open your claws” from the neural pattern being passed through the optical nerve? The bird creates information through the specialized organization of her visual system. That organization mechanically transcribes a representation of the oncoming fencepost and sends it through the optical nerve to be translated into a functional effect by physical protocols that already exist in the visual cortex and brain. The resulting physical effect is that she opens her claws at the exact point in time to grasp the post. No inexorable law was broken in this event, yet at the same time, you cannot use physical law to derive "open your claws" from the pattern of neural impulses in her optical nerve. There is a natural discontinuity between them that must exist in order to translate that medium of information into a functional effect. If the product of translation was derivable from the medium alone, then it would be so by the forces of inexorable law and those forces would limit the system to only those effects which can be derived from the physical properties of the neural impulse – of which “open your claws” is not among them. It is the absence of a physical connection that makes translation possible. In short, the product of information is not derivable from physical law; it is only derivable from the organic systems that translate information. You may wish to argue “Ah, but the organization of the system itself is the product of physical law”. But the organization of the system itself is a product of translation, is it not?. Unless you have a thermodynamic pathway between UUC and phenylalanine, distinguishing it from CUU and leucine, as well as UCU and serine, then I ask you - who is injecting unsupported assumptions to argue there case, you or me?Upright BiPed
August 17, 2014
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Someone needs to work it up: Reason to right of them, Math to left of them, Facts in front of them Volley’d and thunder’d; Storm’d at with shot and shell, Boldly they rode and well, Into the jaws of Death, Into the mouth of Hell Rode Darwin's hundred.kairosfocus
August 17, 2014
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Upright BiPed @ 250 opined
This thread may rank as your worst performance ever.
I'm afraid I'll have to agree with RDFish on this snippet. There's at least one other, even more embarrassing set of posts in which, after showering Michael Behe's math in The Edge of Evolution with unsupported vituperation, and claiming to be a biologist and statistician, A-B incorrectly answered a simple probability question that I put forward involving the binomial theorum. So much for credibility. Undaunted by this ignoble defeat, an enduring image reminiscent of Tennyson's The Charge of the Light Brigade remains:
Reason to right of them, Math to left of them, Facts in front of them Volley'd and thunder'd; Storm'd at with shot and shell, Boldly they rode and well, Into the jaws of Death, Into the mouth of Hell Rode the Darwinists.
-QQuerius
August 17, 2014
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Hi Acartia_bogart, Your point is spot on - I've made the same argument myself. Of the various attributes that are listed as characteristic of what we describe as "intelligent" (humans and animals), I think two of the most fundamental would be learning and solving novel problems. You point out that an omniscient God could never learn, which is obviously true. And since we cannot scientifically interact with God and pose novel problems for Him to solve, we cannot determine if He is capable of that either. As for Querius' response:
1. Something new happens. A-B writes a stupid post about what God can’t do. 2. God, being omnipotent, now knows about it, and learning has occured.
I think Querius needs to brush up on his theology. An omniscient God would know A-B would write his post before he wrote it, of course. After all, doesn't God exist outside of space and time? Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 17, 2014
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Hi Upright Biped,
Your river thing is ridiculous for any number of reasons, not the least of which is that ‘a thing that cannot happen’ (i.e. doing something against inexorable law) cannot be selected.
So you're saying that everything that happens must be according to inexorable law - that nothing can occur which is not determined? You can't have it both ways, I'm afraid - either things can transcend determinism or they can't. Which would you like to pick?
Moreover, your next hapless move, i.e. “transcending determinism”, is a non-issue for the simple reason that the product of translation, which life is dependent upon, cannot be derived from inexorable law.
And by decreeing the truth of this, you are saying that human beings actions are not determined by what you call inexorable law. That is a metaphysical speculation without scientific support, and it is known as "libertarian free will".
This thread may rank as your worst performance ever.
Every single statement you make here is wrong - including this one :-) Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 17, 2014
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A-B, 1. Something new happens. A-B writes a stupid post about what God can't do. 2. God, being omnipotent, now knows about it, and learning has occured. No, it's not possible for our language to define with precision a phenomena that's been experientially encountered and approximated with words like "intelligence." Nor is it necessary, for the same reason. Since you're obviously looking for some hope that "God" can't have been involved, how about this one: "Can God create a rock that he cannot lift?" That should keep you busy for a long time. ;-) -QQuerius
August 17, 2014
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when I say that a river makes “selections”, you deny it. When I ask you why you deny it, you say because rivers’ actions are determined ... So your “scientific” definition requires that intelligent activity transcend determinism.
Your river thing is ridiculous for any number of reasons, not the least of which is that 'a thing that cannot happen' (i.e. doing something against inexorable law) cannot be selected. Moreover, your next hapless move, i.e. "transcending determinism", is a non-issue for the simple reason that the product of translation, which life is dependent upon, cannot be derived from inexorable law. The process of translation requires a physicochemical discontinuity between the medium of information and its post-translation effect - otherwise translation cannot occur. In other words, your points are defeated by universal observation. This thread may rank as your worst performance ever.Upright BiPed
August 17, 2014
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DavidD: "But first, let’s start with your purposefully retarded asinine assumption here about the Creator, which not even a religious person knows." Why is my assumption retarded? By the Wiki definition of intelligence, you must have the ability to learn to be intelligent. Is it assumption to say that god is omnipotent? Or that he is all knowing? This would be news to me. I have never heard a religious person say anything else. Or any priest, minister or pope. Therefore, if ID is using this definition, god must be ruled out as a possible designer. This is why it is critical for ID to clearly define the boundaries by which intelligence is defined.Acartia_bogart
August 17, 2014
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RDFish, if it is not possible to say anything meaningful about anything, why are you posting here?Mung
August 17, 2014
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When RDFish says he is not a materialist, he is not making some conclusion about RDFish - he is simply making some statement about what he means by the word “materialist”. see hereMung
August 17, 2014
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Hi Vishnu,
RDFish, Q: How does the cheetah run so fast? A: Athleticism! Nice try.
Why didn't you answer the question: What information do we gain about the cheetah when the answer is athleticism? You didn't answer the question because there is no answer - we learn precisely nothing.
If athleticism has a defined set of properties, it is perfectly reasonable to ask which is more athletic a cheetah or a sloth. Athleticism does have a fairly well defined set of properties.
Why didn't you answer the question: If the event is "tree hanging", why isn't the sloth more athletic than the cheetah? You didn't answer the question because there is no answer - the term "athleticism" is just a vague descriptive label, and not an objective operational attribute that can be meaningfully given as an explanation of anything. The third point you ignored is the most relevant here: ID tries to infer that the cause of biological complexity is intelligence, but refuses to say what sort of thing had this intelligence. Here is ID: Q: What caused flagella to exist? A: Intelligence of an unknown sort. This is analagous to inferring athleticism of an unknown sort: Q: What caused the object in the sky to move so quickly? A: Athleticism of an unknown sort. That is what is analogous to ID - and it should be obvious to you that the answer provides precisely zero information about anything. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 17, 2014
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Hi StephenB,
SB: I define intelligent activity scientifically as a selection among alternatives for a specific purpose,...
Fine - but then when I say that a river makes "selections", you deny it. When I ask you why you deny it, you say because rivers' actions are determined (and then you also throw an additional requirement that intelligent activity requires "anticipation"). So your "scientific" definition requires that intelligent activity transcend determinism. Your definition of intelligence entails the existence of something that is nothing but metaphysical speculation. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 17, 2014
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RDFish: If the event is “hanging from trees”, then sloths are clearly the better athlete of course, since cheetahs can only hold on for a short time and sloths can even sleep without letting go.
It depends on the definition of "athleticism." If you want to re-define athleticism to be an ability to hang from trees, then the sloth wins. But "athleticism" doesn't normally mean that, and you know it. It you want to define athleticism as a superior talent for eating hot dogs, then the Man Against Food guy wins. Etc. You're making my point. The question "who is better at such and such" is valid when "such and such" has a defined set of properties. You claim that "intelligence" is vague and useless, but you're simply wrong. It's as well defined, or better, than "life." Yet we study "life" all the time and make inferences about it without a hyper precision that you seem to demand for "intelligence."Vishnu
August 17, 2014
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