Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Does ID presuppose a mechanistic view of nature?

Categories
Intelligent Design
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

The Nature of NatureThomas and Aristotle have loomed large on this blog recently. I would like to have weighed in on these discussions, but I have too many other things on my plate right now. I therefore offer this brief post.

One critic, going after me directly, asserts that I’m committed to a mechanical view of nature and that I develop ID in ways inimical to an Aristotelian-Thomistic understanding of nature, according to which nature operates by formal and final causes. Life, according to this view, would be natural rather than artifactual. ID, by contrast, is supposed to demand an artifactual understanding of life.

I don’t think this criticism hits the mark. I have to confess that I’ve always been much more a fan of Plato than of Aristotle, and so I don’t quite see the necessity of forms being realized in nature along strict Aristotelian lines. Even so, nothing about ID need be construed as inconsistent with Aristotle and Thomas.

ID’s critique of naturalism and Darwinism should not be viewed as offering a metaphysics of nature but rather as a subversive strategy for unseating naturalism/Darwinism on their own terms. The Darwinian naturalists have misunderstood nature, along mechanistic lines, but then use this misunderstanding to push for an atheistic worldview.

ID is willing, arguendo, to consider nature as mechanical and then show that the mechanical principles by which nature is said to operate are incomplete and point to external sources of information (cf. the work of the Evolutionary Informatics Lab — www.evoinfo.org). This is not to presuppose mechanism in the strong sense of regarding it as true. It is simply to grant it for the sake of argument — an argument that is culturally significant and that needs to be prosecuted.

This is not to minimize the design community’s work on the design inference/explanatory filter/irreducible-specified-functional complexity. ID has uncovered scientific markers that show where design is. But pointing up where design is, is not to point up where design isn’t.

For the Thomist/Aristotelian, final causation and thus design is everywhere. Fair enough. ID has no beef with this. As I’ve said (till the cows come home, though Thomist critics never seem to get it), the explanatory filter has no way or ruling out false negatives (attributions of non-design that in fact are designed). I’ll say it again, ID provides scientific evidence for where design is, not for where it isn’t.

What exactly then is the nature of nature? That’s the topic of a conference I helped organize at Baylor a decade ago and whose proceedings (suitably updated) are coming out this year (see here). ID is happy to let a thousand flowers bloom with regard to the nature of nature provided it is not a mechanistic, self-sufficing view of nature.

This may sound self-contradictory (isn’t ID always talking about mechanisms displayed by living forms?), but it is not. As I explain in THE DESIGN REVOLUTION:

In discussing the inadequacy of physical mechanisms to bring about design, we need to be clear that intelligent design is not wedded to the same positivism and mechanistic metaphysics that drives Darwinian naturalism. It’s not that design theorists and Darwinian naturalists share the same conception of nature but then simply disagree whether a supernatural agent sporadically intervenes in nature. In fact, intelligent design does not prejudge the nature of nature—that’s for the evidence to decide [[I would change this parenthetical now; metaphysics needs to be consulted as well, 4.18.10]]. Intelligent design’s tools for design detection, for instance, might fail to detect design. Even so, if intelligent design is so free of metaphysical prejudice, why does it continually emphasize mechanism? Why is it constantly looking to molecular machines and focusing on the mechanical aspects of life? If intelligent design treats living things as machines, then isn’t it effectively committed to a mechanistic metaphysics however much it might want to distance itself from that metaphysics otherwise?

Such questions confuse two senses of the term “mechanism.” Michael Polanyi noted the confusion back in the 1960s (see his article “Life Transcending Physics and Chemistry” in the August 1967 issue of Chemical and Engineering News): “Up to this day one speaks of the mechanistic conception of life both to designate an explanation of life in terms of physics and chemistry [what I was calling “physical mechanisms”], and an explanation of living functions as machineries—though the latter excludes the former. The term ‘mechanistic’ is in fact so well established for referring to these two mutually exclusive conceptions, that I am at a loss to find two different words that will distinguish between them.” For Polanyi mechanisms, conceived as causal processes operating in nature, could not account for the origin of mechanisms, conceived as “machines or machinelike features of organisms.”

Hence in focusing on the machinelike features of organisms, intelligent design is not advocating a mechanistic conception of life. To attribute such a conception of life to intelligent design is to commit a fallacy of composition. Just because a house is made of bricks doesn’t mean that the house itself is a brick. Likewise just because certain biological structures can properly be described as machines doesn’t mean that an organism that includes those structures is a machine. Intelligent design focuses on the machinelike aspects of life because those aspects are scientifically tractable and precisely the ones that opponents of design purport to explain by physical mechanisms. Intelligent design proponents, building on the work of Polanyi, argue that physical mechanisms (like the Darwinian mechanism of natural selection and random variation) have no inherent capacity to bring about the machinelike aspects of life.

Darwinism deserves at least as much philosophical scrutiny from Thomists/Aristotelians as ID. It’s therefore ironic that ID gets so much more of their (negative) attention.

P.S. ID’s metaphysical openness about the nature of nature entails a parallel openness about the nature of the designer. Is the designer an intelligent alien, a computional simulator (a la THE MATRIX), a Platonic demiurge, a Stoic seminal reason, an impersonal telic process, …, or the infinite personal transcendent creator God of Christianity? The empirical data of nature simply can’t decide. But that’s not to say the designer is anonymous. I’m a Christian, so the designer’s identity is clear, at least to me. But even to identify the designer with the Christian God is not to say that any particular instance of design in nature is directly the work of his hands. We humans use surrogate intelligences to do work for us (e.g., computer algorithms). God could likewise use surrogate intelligences (Aristotelian final causes?) to produce the sorts of designs that ID theorists focus on (such as the bacterial flagellum).

Comments
above @ 85 Thanks for your comments. I hope to take one more shot at Seversky (figuratively, of course - heh) and information this evening. From my point of view his objection about what information "is" rings hollow for he seems to be able to use it to communicate with me perfectly well. Maybe he's from the Bill Clinton school of English and would argue about what "is" is... More later...tgpeeler
April 26, 2010
April
04
Apr
26
26
2010
01:23 PM
1
01
23
PM
PST
Phaedros I see what you mean and I am inclined to agree except for one thing. When we speak of this alleged "external reality" do we not use our mind to decipher/understand it? I'm not endorsing a solipsist approach or some post-modern relativism, what I am getting at is whether or not this thing we call "external reality" is as objective as we sometimes think it is. What I am getting at is the intricate connection between mind and what we call the external world, which in my opinion cannot be ignored in any epistemological endeavor.above
April 26, 2010
April
04
Apr
26
26
2010
01:17 PM
1
01
17
PM
PST
StephenB I took six courses at Dr. Geisler's seminary (SES - he's not there any more) for some time and he was my first professor. No wonder. :-) p.s. Dr. Geisler got me interested in apologetics in the spring of 2002 or 2003, I forget. I heard him speak in Houston and he literally set my mind on fire. I've been reading like a maniac ever since. I quit attending SES when it finally occurred to me that I could read faster than they could talk. :-) We still see each other whenever he speaks in Houston and we correspond from time to time. He's an amazing guy with an even more amazing story.tgpeeler
April 26, 2010
April
04
Apr
26
26
2010
01:16 PM
1
01
16
PM
PST
Above- Information is linked to mind, however its central importance to biology (and it's not that we imagine information being utilized in biology, it is real and has been there before any human was around to think about it) is proof that it is an "explicit property" of external reality.Phaedros
April 26, 2010
April
04
Apr
26
26
2010
12:00 PM
12
12
00
PM
PST
Part 2: By the way, on the arn.org discussion thread of your argument, there was another gentleman with the name jefscott, that had some very interesting things to say. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it.He had some very interesting criticisms of materialistic ideology. I see exactly what you mean about dawkins. His explanation sounds more like a just-so story than anything else. It’s more like “creating” data to support a presupposition than making inferences derived from the data. But it's dawkins, what do you expect? The guy who says that if he can teach evolution to everyone, he will make them all into atheists. I am surprised he is still tolerated by scientists seeing how he has tarnished the aleged objectivity of the scientific endeavor, reducing it to something akin to political affiliation. Not all the literature of evo is like that of course, but a significant amount of it is just-so stories. I often find it very frustrating having to read through it, ‘cause I feel a lot of the assertions are half-truths some not even that. It’s just unfortunate that there is so much politics involved in this. I would honestly like to see ID proponents and evolutionists work together as opposed to against each other. But the scientific establishment is also to blame. When you have eugenie scott say things like, free speech is great and all but it has not place in science… then what do you expect? :-/above
April 26, 2010
April
04
Apr
26
26
2010
10:17 AM
10
10
17
AM
PST
Tgpeeler, I see what you’re saying about Theistic evolution. My stance is a little different however in the sense that for me evolutionary theory is simply agnostic. In other words, I simply look at the science and not the conflated philosophy (and there is plenty of it) materialists/atheists try to impose upon the theory. I simply refuse to grant them the right. For me evolutionary theory is simply a story about the variation we see in living things that is still a work in progress. I must say however that I still think there are a lot of questions that need to be answered, especially as they pertain to the actual mechanisms of evolution and the interpretation of the evidence. I do however, completely agree with you that neo-darwinism does not provide an explanation for the origin of information (as far as I know) and seems to take that for granted, which is rather odd. I followed some of your other discussions on the dawkins forum and did not see any coherent argument against your position nor did I see anything of that sort when the discussion was conducted on the arn.org forum. The only objection I’ve seen is a semantic one pertaining to the definition of information (and I think we have analytic philosophy to “thank” for that :-P ). Seversky in his response seems to have pointed to that objection as well. But is semantics really the issue here? I have been trying to play the devil’s advocate in my mind to try and find problems with your argument from information because like I said I find the argument very fascinating. The only 2 things I could come up with are (1) the definition of information [which doesn’t do all that much to undermine the argument] (2) the nature of information (as seversky pointed out). Is it a construct of the mind or an explicit property of what we assume is “external reality” [I am leaning towards the opinion that it is intrinsically linked to the mind].above
April 26, 2010
April
04
Apr
26
26
2010
10:09 AM
10
10
09
AM
PST
tg: Interestingly, Normal Geisler, the great non-Catholic philosopher, is also a Thomist.StephenB
April 26, 2010
April
04
Apr
26
26
2010
07:42 AM
7
07
42
AM
PST
StephenB @ 82 "As a Thomist, I have argued on this very site that the existence of God can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt through the use of unaided reason and without science. " I guess that makes me a Thomist, too (at least to that extent). I suppose I'll have to find out what all the fuss is now. What will my Protestant friends say? Probably nothing as I'm sure they know less about him than I do... I guess it's time to actually read The Summa of the Summa, edited by P. Kreeft. It's been sitting on my desk for two years. That should be good for starters, anyway. p.s. Thomistic realism sounds suspiciously like something I'd completely agree with. I'll start tonight. :-)tgpeeler
April 25, 2010
April
04
Apr
25
25
2010
08:46 PM
8
08
46
PM
PST
---Chucky Darwin: "The Thomist, with five solid proofs of God in hand, has no reason to embrace ID as “design detection”. At best, from a Thomistic perspective, ID would be “miracle detection” – the empirical case that God had to suspend the laws of nature to create life." As a Thomist, I have argued on this very site that the existence of God can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt through the use of unaided reason and without science. On the other hand, I have also argued that ID can prove the existence of a designer by using the appropriate methodology. The two arguments go well together and serve very well to knock down the opposite extremes of rationalism [knowledge by intellect only] and radical empiricism [knowledge by sense experience only], both of which are enemies of Thomistic realism. I, for one, do not accept the proposition that I am a second class Thomist because I disagree with those who arrogate unto themselves the role of neo-Thomist gatekeeper. Quite the contrary, I think I have the better of the argument and I can point to a number of Thomists who agree with me. Consult, for example, "The Evidential Power of Beauty," By Thomist Father Thomas Dubay. I am not buying the anti-ID routine of F. Beckwith, E. Feser, and Ed Oakes, especially since all of these men have demonstrated to me that they do not understand Intelligent Design well enough to even comment on it. I question the competency of any neo-Thomist who cannot apply his philosophy in the real world and who refuses to respond to those who ask them to provide the relevant quotes from Thomas himself.StephenB
April 25, 2010
April
04
Apr
25
25
2010
06:23 PM
6
06
23
PM
PST
Me: The problem with that, from a thomist perspective, is that Aquinas firmly established that everything is designed long ago. For a thomist to embrace IDs “design detection” would be a huge leap backwards! StephenB: For those who know calculus, long division is huge leap backwards. Does that mean that math teachers who know calculus should refuse to teach long division on the grounds that the latter is not as elegant as the former?
It all depends on what you're trying to do. If you want to find out what 639258 divided by 197 equals, long division is fine. If you want to generate a curve that represents an infinite series of changes, long division will not get you there. The Thomist, with five solid proofs of God in hand, has no reason to embrace ID as "design detection". At best, from a Thomistic perspective, ID would be "miracle detection" - the empirical case that God had to suspend the laws of nature to create life.Chucky Darwin
April 25, 2010
April
04
Apr
25
25
2010
04:12 PM
4
04
12
PM
PST
OK. Here it is. Don't be drinking anything while you read it. Notice that not only does the "explanation" not have a thing to do with science but that it is completely irrelevant. From Richard Dawkins' book "The Blind Watchmaker," page 89. "What use is half a wing? How did wings get their start? Many animals leap from bough to bough, and sometimes fall to the ground. Especially in a small animal, the whole body surface catches the air and assists the leap, or breaks the fall, by acting as a crude aerofoil. Any tendency to increase the ratio of surface area to weight would help, for example flaps of skin growing out in the angles of joints. From here, there is a continuous series of gradations to gliding wings, and hence to flapping wings. Obviously there are distances that could not have been jumped by the earliest animals with proto-wings. Equally obviously, for any degree of smallness or crudeness of ancestral air-catching surfaces, there must be some distance, however short, which can be jumped with the flap and which cannot be jumped without the flap. Or, if prototype wingflaps worked to break the animal’s fall, you cannot say ‘Below a certain size the flaps would have been of no use at all.’ Once again, it doesn’t matter how small and un-winglike the first wingflaps were. There must be some height, call it h, such that an animal would just break its neck if it fell from that height, but would just survive if it fell from a slightly lower height. In this critical zone, any improvement in the body surface’s ability to catch the air and break the fall, however slight that improvement, can make the difference between life and death. Natural selection will then favour slight, prototype wingflaps. When these small wingflaps have become the norm, the critical height h will become slightly greater. Now a slight further increase in the wingflaps will make the difference between life and death. And so on, until we have proper wings." Well, there you have it. Just substitute eyes, brains, legs, livers, etc... and you have your explanation. I would be embarrassed to write something like that. But the reviewers thought it great stuff. Here's a sampling of the reviews... "The best general account of evolution that I have read in recent years." Edward O. Wilson (a Harvard professor and considered to be a distinguished academic.) Edward O. Wilson awarded 2007 Catalonia International Prize (November 20, 2007) Yale honors E. O. Wilson with Verrill Medal (Harvard University Gazette, October 17, 2007) "Winner of the Royal Society of Literature's Heinemann Prize and the Los Angeles Times Book Award" "As readable and vigorous defense of Darwinism a has been published since 1859." - The Economist "Brilliant exposition, tightly argued but kept readable..." blah blah blah... London Times "Beautifully and superbly written..." blah blah blah Los Angeles Times "... In The Blind Watchmaker I was repeatedly astonished at the clarity with which Dawkins sees the problems... ... has not lost his sense of wonder at the natural world as he has gained intellectual understanding of it... I wish I could write like that." John Maynard Smith, New Scientist. A bit of his CV follows... In 1991 he was awarded the Balzan Prize of Italy. In 1995 he was awarded the Linnean Medal by The Linnean Society and in 1999 he was awarded the Crafoord Prize jointly with Ernst Mayr and George C. Williams. In 2001 he was awarded the Kyoto Prize. In his honour, the European Society for Evolutionary Biology has an award for extraordinary young evolutionary biology researchers named The John Maynard Smith Prize. "A lovely book, original and lively, it expounds the ins and outs of evolution with enthusiastic clarity, answering, at every point, the cavemen of creationism." Isaac Asimov "... But the more important reason for reading Dawkins's (sic) book is that this is his answer, in clear and often insightful terms, to the opponents of neo-Darwinian evolutionary theory." Douglas J. Futumaya (sic), Natural History. Futuyma is the author of the widely used textbook Evolutionary Biology and Science on Trial: The Case for Evolution, an introduction to the creation-evolution controversy. His most recent textbook,Evolution, was published early in 2005 as an introductory textbook for undergraduates. Futuyma is also the co-author with M. Slatkin of "Coevolution". Futuyma has been president of the Society for the Study of Evolution, and of the American Society of Naturalists. He was the editor of Evolution and the Annual Review of Ecology and Systematics. He was awarded the Sewall Wright Award from the American Society of Naturalists, has been a Guggenheim Fellow, and was a Fulbright Fellow in Australia. He was made a member of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States on 25 April 2006. Along with his talents regarding evolution, Futuyma is also a respected field biologist.tgpeeler
April 25, 2010
April
04
Apr
25
25
2010
03:41 PM
3
03
41
PM
PST
above@ 76
@tgpeeler You have provided a very fascinating argument in my opinion that compelled me to throw your blog on my fav’s list.
Yes, he has but, like any other argument, it should be examined critically. For example @ 70 he writes:
The first thing we (always) have to do is define the terms. I will use the Merriam-Webster online site (www.merriam-webster.com) for all definitions. This is the use of the first principle of Identity. A thing is what it is. I will use the terms as they are defined. Any equivocal use of the terms invalidates an argument – whether you or I do it.
Dictionaries are a good place to start for definitions but that is all. Lexicographers compile lists of past and present usages of words. One problem they face, however, is condensing often complex and ill-defined fields of research into a few sentences at best. Information is one of those areas. Tgpeeler provides the Merriam-Webster versions but we also know from a previous post by William Dembski that Seth Shostak compiled a list of upwards of 40 distinct technical definitions of information and complexity. There is a great deal of confusion and equivocation about which version of information is being discussed here As an experiment, what you could do is compare the Merriam-Webster definitions of say 'information' and 'naturalism' with the entries for those same terms in The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy Also, at @ 71 he writes:
The ultimate authority in matters of truth is Reason. Try to argue with that and you will see why I say it. Facts are facts but we will never see facts that contradict reason. I believe that, ultimately, there is only one way to know anything and that is by the application of reason to evidence
Reason, like its formal cousin logic, or mathematics or a computer are all means of manipulating data according to a set of rules. But they are all prone to the same flaw - in computer terms 'garbage in/garbage out'. It is possible to construct a perfectly valid argument that leads you flawlessly to a nonsensical conclusion. In other words, reason is powerless unless you have reliable data to reason about. If we define truth as the extent to which our models or explanations correspond with what we observe, the the test must be empirical. If the conclusions of our reasoning are at variance with what we observe then there is most probably a flaw in our reasoning. What is actually there is the test not what we argue should be there. @ 72 he writes:
If we frame the argument in terms of information rather than design, per se, it is crystal clear that physics plus time can never create information.
Dendrochronologists can obtain information about the climate in which a tree has grown by studying the rings in its trunk. Geologists can infer much about the distant history of the Earth from the study of rock strata. Meteorologists forecast weather and describe climate from observations of things like temperature and barometric pressure. None of that information was put there by anyone as far as we know. It is all the result of physical processes acting over time. Again, this raises the question of the nature of information. Is it a property of the system we are observing or of the models we construct to represent those systems in our minds. Is the red color of a rose a property of the flower itself or the way our minds represent the narrow band of light wavelengths reflected by the petals? @ 73 he writes:
Evolution as a “natural process” is a far cry from evolution as a theory that explicitly says that God did not do it.
Evolution refers to the process of changes that we observe happening to living things now and which we infer also happened to them in the past. The theory of evolution offers an explanation of how those changes came about through natural processes over time. It does not require the existence of a god but neither does it exclude the possibility. Whatever some of its proponents believe personally, the theory itself is silent about the existence of God. There is no obvious conflict between deistic beliefs and the theory of evolution since there is nothing in the nature of God, as usually understood, which would prevent Him from using evolution as a part of His creation if He so chose. There is perceived to be conflict between some tenets of theistic belief and the theory, although it should be noted that there is disagreement amongst theists about the nature and extent of God's direct intervention in the world. The problem for theists is where there is a conflict between what they believe and what science reports, how do they resolve it. If they insist that their beliefs take precedence over anything else then that is their choice but they cannot claim to be acting scientifically or even reasonably. On the other hand, if they give science priority then they are not being true to their faith.Seversky
April 25, 2010
April
04
Apr
25
25
2010
03:40 PM
3
03
40
PM
PST
above, I just finished listening to Perry's presentation and I thoroughly enjoyed it. If I have added anything to the information angle (see too, Werner Gitt, "In the Beginning Was Information" and J.C. Sanford "Genetic Entropy & The Mystery of the Genome, for two) (how does one italicize out here??) it is the insight about WHY this (that one needs a mind for information) is true. And that is because physics can't account for codes, or as I generally say, language. This is why, I believe, we never need have the debate about the "odds" of chance creating information. As soon as we start playing that game (I played it for years) we've given away the farm, er, language, and allowed them to start the argument in the middle, not at the beginning. I did a presentation on this subject to a Christian apologetics group last year. Maybe I can put a link to that on my "blog" if you would care to listen to it. Something else that bugs me about the modern synthesis is that it doesn't even begin to explain, or claim to explain, what MUST be explained, and that is information. Darwin and his "descendants" spend all of their time inventing "just so" stories about how physical structures evolved. (I'll post one in which Dawkins explains wings. It's laugh out loud funny but he is serious.) So what? It's not the physical structures that need to be explained. It's the information encoded in the genome that needs explanation. Any explanation of how birds developed wings or fish have scales is completely irrelevant. This a huge hole in darwinism that needs to have trucks driven through it on a regular basis. :-)tgpeeler
April 25, 2010
April
04
Apr
25
25
2010
03:28 PM
3
03
28
PM
PST
Upright, thanks. above, thank you for linking my blog. Let me be a little clearer on my anti-theistic evolution stance. It is grounded purely in reason because the very phrase, theistic evolution, involves a self-contradiction. The current theory of evolution (neo-darwinian, or the modern synthesis), as part of the theory, denies any place for God, Design, Agency, Purpose, etc... The theistic evolutionist, as far as I know, says well, evolution could be true, but God did it. But evolution says God didn't do it. So it seems to me that the proponent of theistic evolution is saying, in effect, that God did it (the theistic part) by not doing it (the evolution part). If they want to claim that God did it with evolutionary mechanisms ('natural selection' and genetic mutation, roughly) then they need to realize (maybe they do) and be clear about the equivocal use of the word evolution. Plus how would one tell the difference if God did it or didn't do it in that way? I'm not saying that makes it false, I'm just saying it seems like it would be impossible to tell. This is one of the many things I like about the argument from information. It kills any naturalistic story, one that must rely on physics only, of evolution. So if the modern synthesis gives way to evo-devo or some other nonsense (literally non-sense) "our" work is still finished. Until "they" can show how language (and thus information) can be explained in terms of quarks, leptons, and the four fundamental forces, I think the discussion is pretty much over. p.s. Thanks for the link. Listening now.tgpeeler
April 25, 2010
April
04
Apr
25
25
2010
02:26 PM
2
02
26
PM
PST
@tgpeeler You have provided a very fascinating argument in my opinion that compelled me to throw your blog on my fav's list. I once read a similar argument that may be found here: http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/ifyoucanreadthis.htm I thought you might want to take a look at it. Also, I am having a bit of trouble following the argument against Theistic Evolution to be honest. Specifically, I don't really see how evolution is in conflict with Theism. Assuming of course that abiogenesis is not an issue. In other words, ignoring the OOL issue for the time being. You mind elaborating a little bit on that?above
April 24, 2010
April
04
Apr
24
24
2010
09:01 PM
9
09
01
PM
PST
TGP, as always, you make an argument that is tough to ignore. Have a good weekend. “The image of the fundamental laws of physics zestfully wrestling with the void to bring the universe into being is one that suggests very little improvement over the accounts given by the ancient Norse in which the world is revealed to be balanced on the back of a gigantic ox. If this is how explanations come to an end, what of materialism? The laws of physics are sets of symbols, after all—those now vested with the monstrous power to bring things and urges into creation, and symbols belong to the intelligence-infused aspects of the universe.” - David BerlinskiUpright BiPed
April 23, 2010
April
04
Apr
23
23
2010
09:13 PM
9
09
13
PM
PST
lastyearon @ 68 "Since evolution is a natural process, it may very well have been designed by the designer of nature. That is the crux of the argument for a fine-tuned universe (and theistic evolution). That is incompatible with the argument for ID, which says evolution is truly random and purposeless, and therefore could not have designed anything." You use the word evolution equivocally here. Evolution as a "natural process" is a far cry from evolution as a theory that explicitly says that God did not do it. It's not ID that says that, either, by the way, it's the theory of evolution that says that. The latter is what evolution is, not the former. The "theistic evolutionists" don't have a logical leg to stand on. They are saying, in essence, that God did it by not doing it. I think we can all see the logical incoherence in that position. back Sunday night - nice weekend to all...tgpeeler
April 23, 2010
April
04
Apr
23
23
2010
02:20 PM
2
02
20
PM
PST
lastyearon @ 68 "Since evolution is a natural process, it may very well have been designed by the designer of nature. That is the crux of the argument for a fine-tuned universe (and theistic evolution). That is incompatible with the argument for ID, which says evolution is truly random and purposeless, and therefore could not have designed anything." You use the word evolution equivocally here. Evolution as a "natural process" is a far cry from evolution as a theory that explicitly says that God did not do it. It's not ID that says that, either, by the way, it's the theory of evolution that says that. The latter is what evolution is, not the former. The "theistic evolutionists" don't have a logical leg to stand on. They are saying, in essence, that God did it by not doing it. I think we can all see the logical incoherence in that position.tgpeeler
April 23, 2010
April
04
Apr
23
23
2010
02:19 PM
2
02
19
PM
PST
above @ 67 "How can randomness create design? Well that’s easy the naturalist will say… infinite monkeys + inflinite typewriters + infinite time = Shakespeare. But where is the empirical support for such a claim?" If we frame the argument in terms of information rather than design, per se, it is crystal clear that physics plus time can never create information. This is why it's impossible for evolution to be true. Monkeys and typewriters and eons of time require language to duplicate Shakespeare, which they do not have in a naturalistic world view. Even if they didn't have language the odds are impossibly great to overcome but we need not even have that argument in the first place. Number of keys on my keyboard: 102 call it 100. Number of words Shakespeare allegedly used: call it 30,000 Average number of letters in a word, be conservative and call it 5. Number of letters in words he used (not total number of words in all of his works, a much higher number): 150,000 Odds of getting those letters in the right order on a computer keyboard is (forget blanks and punctuation marks) is: 100^150,000 or 10^1,500,000 Number of estimated sub-atomic particles in the observable universe 10^80. If every particle in the universe were monkey with his own typewriter and they could type 10^43 words per second (Planck time) for 10^17 seconds (approximate age of universe) that's only 10^140 words. So the odds, given that scenario, of the monkeys getting the job done are 10^-1,360,000. Good luck, naturalist, even if I spot you the language.tgpeeler
April 23, 2010
April
04
Apr
23
23
2010
02:06 PM
2
02
06
PM
PST
lastyearon @ 66 (part two) "How do you know who the ultimate designer is? Is this just an opinion of yours, or is it based on evidence?" Please see my blog for those arguments. (I think you can click on my name.) "By the way, if I’m not mistaken the position of ID is that the identity of the designer is not subject to scientific inquiry, and is thus unknowable by the methods of science. Do you disagree with that?" There is a lot of epistemology lurking in that question. Let me give you the condensed version of my epistemology. The ultimate authority in matters of truth is Reason. Try to argue with that and you will see why I say it. Facts are facts but we will never see facts that contradict reason. I believe that, ultimately, there is only one way to know anything and that is by the application of reason to evidence. I believe that there are no privileged truth claims, scientific or religious. I believe that there is one way reality is (ontology) or that "things are" and that whatever world view (a set of assumptions, ideally first principles whenever possible, or at least assumptions that are conclusions of sound deductive arguments) one has needs to be able to explain all the data. That is, it must be internally consistent. Self-contradictions cannot be true. I believe that the place to start with all searches for truth is with first principles, axioms that cannot be denied without self-contradiction. So the question of the designer being a "scientific" one doesn't really fit the way I view things. Reasoning from first principles plus the methods of science, observation and inference to best explanation, seem to me to be the only game in town. Ultimately. My view leaves room for revelation but it must be revelation that is demonstrated to be true by the methods I just described. For example, I would not say that things are true because the Bible says they are. I would say that the Bible says things that are true. This is, I believe, a very important distinction. The only Authority I ultimately trust in matters of truth is Reason. I AM WHO I AM. (The personalization of the first principles of reason.) Experience can be deceptive, Reason never is. The problem of empiricism is that there is always one more fact. The only problem with reason is that most people, I've found, aren't very good at it.tgpeeler
April 23, 2010
April
04
Apr
23
23
2010
01:46 PM
1
01
46
PM
PST
lastyearon @ 66 "Please explain to me how you come to that conclusion." (That physics has nothing to say about codes or language - tgp) I thought I already did that but there's nothing I like better than the "sound" of my own voice so I'll try again. The first thing we (always) have to do is define the terms. I will use the Merriam-Webster online site (www.merriam-webster.com) for all definitions. This is the use of the first principle of Identity. A thing is what it is. I will use the terms as they are defined. Any equivocal use of the terms invalidates an argument – whether you or I do it. Physics: a science that deals with matter and energy and their interactions. Information (some parts of the definition are not relevant so this is not the entire definition): the attribute inherent in and communicated by one of two or more alternative sequences or arrangements of something (as nucleotides in DNA or binary digits in a computer program) that produce specific effects; a signal or character (as in a communication system or computer) representing data; something (as a message, experimental data, or a picture) which justifies change in a construct (as a plan or theory) that represents physical or mental experience or another construct. Naturalism: a theory denying that an event or object has a supernatural significance; specifically: the doctrine that scientific laws are adequate to account for all phenomena. Language (only the relevant definition): a formal system of signs and symbols (as FORTRAN or a calculus in logic) including rules for the formation and transformation of admissible expressions. Symbol: something that stands for or suggests something else by reason of relationship, association, convention, or accidental resemblance; especially : a visible sign of something invisible ; an arbitrary or conventional sign used in writing or printing relating to a particular field to represent operations, quantities, elements, relations, or qualities. I think this should do it as far as terms go. I am making two claims. The first is that physics cannot explain, or account for, or produce, information. The second is, because of this, naturalism cannot possibly be true. If the generation of information requires the use of a language, and it does (this premise is not explicitly defined but it is still contained within the definitions – i.e. “expressions”). And if a language is comprised of symbols (or signs) and rules, and it is. Then, for naturalism to be true as a doctrine that accounts for ALL phenomena, it must be able to account for information. Since information is a phenomena (no one can deny that information is a “phenomena” because to deny information is to use information) and it is based on language (symbols and rules) then what naturalism must now explain or account for are the symbols and rules. So now the question becomes how do “scientific laws” (I say physics since all scientific laws are based on physics) account for the symbols and rules of (any) language? Remember, based on the definition of naturalism, physics is all we have to explain symbols and rules. So how do we get from physics to symbols? (The same logic applies to the rules part so I will stop saying symbols and rules and just say symbols.) Well, we cannot. By definition we cannot. Since the definition of information includes the idea of representing data or a message or a mental experience, and physics ( by definition, the science that deals with matter and energy and their interactions) has nothing to do or say about data or messages or mental experiences, well then, we’re done. But allow me to elaborate. As far as I have been able to determine, the disciplines of physics can be described by quantum theory, general relativity, the Standard Model, and the laws of thermodynamics. If this taxonomy isn’t exact, or complete (someone educate me if it isn’t) the argument will still work because the key idea is that all the disciplines within physics are about the material (matter and energy) world. But none of these disciplines within physics have anything to say about symbols. The representation of one thing for another. Nothing. Ever. Because symbols, per se, are not what physics is about. The very definition of a symbol involves the representation of one thing for another. In fact, even the laws of physics are written in the language of mathematics using symbols. So how could we expect the subject of the laws to somehow account for the laws themselves? We cannot. How does a photon explain E=mc^2? It does not. It is for this reason that I say that physics cannot account for information. To review the causal chain, starting at the end. Information – language (symbols and rules) – and then what? As I have pointed out, not physics. So even without describing what is the first cause in the chain of causes that leads to information (it turns out to be a mind, although to be fair I haven’t made that a deductive argument yet), we can see that it is not physics. This is conceptually falsifiable. All you or anyone has to do is create information of some kind, any kind, without using a language. You quickly see that this is logically incoherent. So you quickly see that physics is inadequate to cause information. “Please give me a definition of ‘information’ that is not the result of physical processes. Or how about an example.” I think I just did this. Any piece of information is an example. What you may be conflating are the ideas that information is always encoded in a physical substrate with the fact that the information is NOT the physical substrate. The “SURRENDER DOROTHY” example illustrates that, I believe. Indeed, as does this post. The information I am communicating in this post is encoded in 1s and 0s which are not even really 1s and 0s but logic gates on my pc and somehow they end up as English letters organized properly so as to communicate information. But the information is NOT the letters themselves or the logic gates on my pc. And even though the physical letters and logic gates are explained perfectly by the laws of physics, the arrangement of them is not, and why they mean anything is not. “You say that information is mental rather than physical. But our minds are the results of the physical processes in our brains. Do you disagree with that? Based on what evidence?" I am not a philosopher of mind although I have read a fair amount about it. The problem of mind/body interaction is a thorny issue indeed. Is the mind different from the brain? I would say so. Is the mind dependent upon the brain to function? Again, I would agree but it is not a one-way street, I believe. How does this happen, exactly? Beats me. But it does. This is the miracle of life, if you ask me. How chemical reactions between synapses that can be described by the laws of physics result in a craving for ice cream or pizza or how a memory of something that happened years ago can bring one to tears or joy or how a thought of my daughter can bring a smile to my face and a warm fuzzy feeling to my “heart” is a mystery to me. This seems to be a real sticking point for philosophers of mind. How, exactly, does the mental world (if it exists) have causal power in the material world? Since it’s virtually impossible to describe how it would, so far, they think it easier, I guess, to simply deny mental causation. I do notice, however, that the “laws of physics” have causal power in the physical world even though they are themselves not physical and no one seems inclined to therefore deny the existence of the laws of physics. So I don’t think I am out of the realm of reason to maintain that there is mental causation in the physical world. In fact, as I think about it, the existence of information can probably be used to argue for mental causation in a formal way. I have thought about it mainly from the point of view of disproving naturalism but probably there is a good argument in there for the existence of mind. Physics certainly can’t do it and it seems that the manipulation of abstract things would require the existence of something abstract (a mind) so maybe I’ll be back later with some thoughts on that. Anyway, I hope I have answered your questions to some extent, at least.tgpeeler
April 23, 2010
April
04
Apr
23
23
2010
01:22 PM
1
01
22
PM
PST
lastyear, We did not peer into the cell and find some other system of heredity, based upon some other mechanism with some other properties. We found a mechanism which has a very specific property, and that property has only a single inference to its origin in all of human experience - regardless of one's metaphysical predisposition. Its not compelling to your case to continue simply ignoring what is empirically known in favor of a position that is empty of it.Upright BiPed
April 23, 2010
April
04
Apr
23
23
2010
12:02 PM
12
12
02
PM
PST
above
But you have absolutely no shred of evidence to presuppose that evolution itself was not designed either.
Since evolution is a natural process, it may very well have been designed by the designer of nature. That is the crux of the argument for a fine-tuned universe (and theistic evolution). That is incompatible with the argument for ID, which says evolution is truly random and purposeless, and therefore could not have designed anything.lastyearon
April 23, 2010
April
04
Apr
23
23
2010
10:09 AM
10
10
09
AM
PST
@lastyear. You said: "The naturalist does not deny the existence of ‘real’ design. He simply says that it the result of natural processes.” But that's precisely the problem for the naturalist, which if I am not mistaken commits the fallacy of equivocation. The naturalist claims that design is only illusory and at bottom lie random, purposeless processes. That in my opinion is a superstition. How can randomness create design? Well that's easy the naturalist will say... infinite monkeys + inflinite typewriters + infinite time = Shakespeare. But where is the empirical support for such a claim? At this point, I am assuming you will be pointing out to evolution and saying there it is... But you have absolutely no shred of evidence to presuppose that evolution itself was not designed either. To persist in arguing that, one would need to indulge in petitio principii (circular logic)... And I think that's exactly what tgpeeler is pointing to.above
April 23, 2010
April
04
Apr
23
23
2010
09:28 AM
9
09
28
AM
PST
tgpeeler Question 1:
with ONLY natural (physics) processes, it is impossible to account for information. Any kind of information, not just biological information. All information requires a code. Physics has nothing to say about codes. Codes are mental, that is, intelligent constructs, and not physical constructs.
Please explain to me how you come to that conclusion. Please give me a definition of 'information' that is not the result of physical processes. Or how about an example. You say that information is mental rather than physical. But our minds are the results of the physical processes in our brains. Do you disagree with that? Based on what evidence? Question 2:
Who ever said the cause of the design is unknowable? I know exactly Who is the ultimate Designer.
How do you know who the ultimate designer is? Is this just an opinion of yours, or is it based on evidence? By the way, if I'm not mistaken the position of ID is that the identity of the designer is not subject to scientific inquiry, and is thus unknowable by the methods of science. Do you disagree with that?lastyearon
April 23, 2010
April
04
Apr
23
23
2010
08:51 AM
8
08
51
AM
PST
lastyearon @ 64 "The naturalist does not deny the existence of ‘real’ design. He simply says that it the result of natural processes." This is simply not true. If you are a "real" naturalist, then you MUST deny the existence of real design. "Simply" saying that design is the result of natural processes (physics?) abuses both words. This is the point, with ONLY natural (physics) processes, it is impossible to account for information. Any kind of information, not just biological information. All information requires a code. Physics has nothing to say about codes. Codes are mental, that is, intelligent constructs, and not physical constructs. And again, I am most definitely not making an a priori assumption that "real design" is distinct from nature. My conclusion that "real design" is not physical lies at the end of a chain of reasoning. "ID, on the other hand, sees the same designed thing and somehow says the best explanation is that the cause of this design is not knowable." I'm sure I must be missing something here. Who ever said the cause of the design is unknowable? I know exactly Who is the ultimate Designer. The difference between my position and (apparently) yours is that I start with first principles, toss in some empirical evidence, stir it all up in a sound argument, and arrive at a true conclusion. God is a conclusion for me, not an assumption. For the naturalist, the absence of God is an a priori metaphysical claim that is unsupported by reason or evidence. It seems pretty simple to me but that may also be a clue that something is way over my head. Feel free to enlighten me further. Maybe I don't even understand completely what we are disagreeing about. p.s. As far as design being "real"... "The answer was given over a hundred years ago by Charles Darwin and also by A.R. Wallace. Natural selection, Darwin argued, provides our "automatic" mechanism by which a complex organism can survive and increas in both number and complexity. I say "automatic" to mean that we need not involve a special "life force" or "intelligence" to direct this process." Francis Crick "Of Molecules and Men" "The illusion of purpose is so powerful that biologists themselves use the assumption of good design as a working tool." RD "ROOE" "… it is relevant to my point about the power of the “as if designed” assumption." RD "ROOE" "The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference." RD "ROOE" "Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." RD "The Blind Watchmaker" I could go on an on and not only with Dawkins (and I would but he's such an easy target it's hardly any fun to make fun of him). At any rate, whatever kind of naturalism you hold to, it is not the naturalism of modern and contemporary science and philosophy.tgpeeler
April 23, 2010
April
04
Apr
23
23
2010
06:33 AM
6
06
33
AM
PST
tgpeeler:
In observing an object that “appears” to be designed I am NOT holding, a priori, that the causal effect MUST be outside of nature. That is NOT what is going on. What I am doing (I can’t speak for everyone) is making an inference to the best explanation. The naturalist, on the other hand, denies the existence, or ontological status, of “real” design and does so, as I mentioned earlier, a priori.
The naturalist does not deny the existence of 'real' design. He simply says that it the result of natural processes. The IDer makes the a-priori assumption that 'real' design is somehow distinct from nature. I think we're getting hung up on words. Forget about the word 'natural'. How about we simply substitute it with, say 'knowable', or 'explainable'. I'm simply saying that when one comes across a thing that appears 'designed' it is appropriate to postulate that the cause of that design is knowable (i.e. observes known or unknown physical laws). ID, on the other hand, sees the same designed thing and somehow says the best explanation is that the cause of this design is not knowable. That's based on an a-priori assumption that design is outside of nature.lastyearon
April 22, 2010
April
04
Apr
22
22
2010
12:33 PM
12
12
33
PM
PST
Definitions/descriptions of naturalism/materialism/physicalism “The view, sometimes considered scientific (but an assumption (i.e. a priori, my words) rather than an argued theory) that all that there is, is spatiotemporal (a part of “nature”) and is only knowable through the methods of the sciences, is itself a metaphysics, namely metaphysical naturalism (not to be confused with natural philosophy).” Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy, Second Edition, page 563. “the twofold view that (1) everything is composed of natural entities – those studied in the sciences (on some versions, the natural sciences) – whose properties determine all the properties of things, persons included (abstracta like possibilia and mathematical objects, if they exist, being constructed of such abstract entities as the sciences allow); and (2) acceptable methods of justification and explanation are contiguous, in some sense, with those in science.” The Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy, Second Edition, page 596. "Materialism is the naturalistic metaphysics that regards nature as consisting of matter in motion. Whatever is apparently not matter in motion is to be regarded as "mere appearances" of what is matter in motion. All explanation, therefore, in philosophy as well as in science, is to be phrased in terms of the laws now known or yet to be discovered concerning the relationships among the different kinds of matter and the laws of their motion with respect to each other." Philosophic Inquiry, page 338. “Materialists deny that the world includes both mental and material substances. Every substance is a material substance. Minds are fashioned somehow from the same elementary components from which rocks, trees, and stars are made.” Philosophy of Mind, page 51. “Nowadays, materialism of one stripe or another is more often than not taken for granted: in David Lewis’s words, materialism is nonnegotiable.” Philosophy of Mind, page 51. “One way of stating the principle of physical causal closure is this: If you pick any physical event and trace out its causal ancestry or posterity, that will never take you outside the physical domain. That is, no causal chain will ever cross the boundary between the physical and the nonphysical.” Mind in a Physical World, page 40. “So all roads branching out of physicalism may in the end seem to converge at the same point, the irreality of the mental. This should come as no surprise: we should remember that physicalism, as an overarching metaphysical doctrine about all of reality, exacts a steep price.” Mind in a Physical World, page 119. See also http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/naturalism/ for a more complete discussion. The author of the post says up front that it does not have a precise meaning. I guess that's why it takes him so long to describe it. This entry is why I describe naturalism in the broadest and most "generous" way possible. I want to be fair to what the term means. I think I have done this.tgpeeler
April 22, 2010
April
04
Apr
22
22
2010
11:12 AM
11
11
12
AM
PST
lastyearon @ 59 "Do you think it is possible to understand and predict God’s causal effect in nature? If so, is that still God?" I'm not sure what you mean but that won't keep me from taking a shot anyway. In some ways I think so and in other ways not. I have recently come to the conclusion (based largely on another thread out here about the existence of an objective moral law and some other thinking) that the taxonomy of God's laws is pretty simple. As far as I can tell, there are two kinds. Those that are written in the language of mathematics (the laws of physics, logic, economics, and dietary laws, to name a few) and the moral law which is "written" on our consciences. I don't believe any law of God's, unlike human laws, can ever be violated without consequence. I think this is part of what "law" means. That there are consequences of obeying them and not obeying them. For example, if I take in more calories than I burn, I will gain weight. There is no way that this won't happen. If I turn on a flashlight and it produces a beam of light I can say that the photons will be traveling at 3x10^8 meters per second. If I say that b>c and a>b then a>c. That is always true and not even God can make it not true (for another time, perhaps). So in that sense I can say that some things can be predicted in nature. As far as other things, moral things, say, if I tell a lie or murder someone, the consequences are not so clear. I may "get away" with it for now in the sense that maybe no one ever finds out so there are no consequences that way, but in lying or murdering, I have also harmed myself and this is unavoidable. So in that way, even though I know there will be consequences I don't know precisely what they'll be. I could get 25 to life or I could get off. If I violate man's laws, I speed, say, on the other hand, I MAY avoid any consequence and I MAY remain undamaged.tgpeeler
April 22, 2010
April
04
Apr
22
22
2010
10:54 AM
10
10
54
AM
PST
lastyearon @ 58 "First of all, you seem to imply that naturalism is the same thing as atheism. It isn’t. It is a perfectly legitimate position to hold that God exists within nature. i.e. God and nature are synonymous." You are correct that ontological naturalism implies that there is no God. If one starts with naturalism then atheism is a conclusion, not an assumption. The problem with starting with naturalism, aside from the most serious problem that it is false, is that it is not a first principle. It is merely an assertion about how things are a priori of any thought or experience. Therefore, since it is false, it leads to a whole host of false conclusions. That discussion is for another time. However, IF you claim it is a legitimate position to hold that God and nature are synonymous and that's what naturalism means, THEN you have butchered the term naturalism. Because that's not what it means. If you say: but that's what it means "to me," well then it does, but that does not mean that you are using the term as it is currently used. You have committed the fallacy of equivocation. "Second, if you look closely at the commitment you say naturalists make, it really is nothing more than a tautology. If something can have a causal effect in nature, it’s natural by definition. History is full of examples of eerie or spooky things that used to be ‘outside’ of nature, but are now known to be natural, simply because people have done the work to understand their causal effect." My dictionary says that a tautology is a needless repitition. I merely described what (ontological) naturalism is. In other words, the definition of it. But you seem to think I am abusing the term somehow. I am not. I didn't invent the definition of naturalism to make my own point. This is what naturalism is. This is the definition of naturalism. If you have a quibble with that your issue is with the greater philosophical community (of which I am not a part, by the way, strictly amateur status here) which holds to what I said. I will be happy to provide references if you like. I made the "needless repetition" of what naturalism IS so I could point out the intellectual commitments it requires. As I've said before, in my experience, naturalists are not willing to make intellectual commitments. That is, they are not willing to live with the conclusions their premises entail. This of course, means that they throw reason under the bus, too. But that doesn't seem to bother them. It bugs the heck out of me but that's probably because I'm a chicken at heart. The idea of not knowing what is actually true scares me to death. If I may also be so bold, I believe your reasoning is faulty in another way. For one thing, just because something that used to be unexplained (was "eerie") and now is explained, is irrelevant to my argument. I agree that "we" know more now than "we" did in the past (and "we" will know more tomorrow, too). So what? It's the first principles with which I'm concerned and those never, ever change. That's why they can be used to make such powerful arguments. It's why naturalism, the real naturalism, the way the word is used in philosophy, is not only not true, it can never, ever be true. If my argument is sound (and I believe it is - even if I didn't structure it as a formal syllogism in my earlier post - I could have), it is impossible for naturalism to be true. I think I've explained why and if you have reasons why you think my argument fails I'd love to hear them. "It is not naturalists that make the a-priori commitment, but IDers. In observing an object that appears to be designed, ID holds that the causal effect must to be outside of nature." You must be new here. :-) This is patently false. In observing an object that "appears" to be designed I am NOT holding, a priori, that the causal effect MUST be outside of nature. That is NOT what is going on. What I am doing (I can't speak for everyone) is making an inference to the best explanation. The naturalist, on the other hand, denies the existence, or ontological status, of "real" design and does so, as I mentioned earlier, a priori. (This brings up the obvious question, if there is no "real" design in nature how is it that anyone can speak of "apparent" design?) I make no a priori commitments. I start with first principles, which cannot be denied, and go from there. My epistemological starting point is that reason is the sovereign of truth. Reason is the ultimate authority when it comes to truth claims. I say that ONLY because it cannot be denied without contradiction. If you deny that this is so then you have to justify your claim and you are then reasoning. In other words, you have to reason to deny reason. This, obviously, is unreasonable. heh. Let me illustrate how I'm not making an a priori assumption in regard to design with this simple example. Let's say that I see a book. I say, hmmm, I wonder who wrote that book? Am I making an assumption that the book MUST HAVE an author? No. I am merely recognizing that every book I've ever seen has an author and so I reach the reasonable conclusion that this particular book also has an author. I hope you see the difference.tgpeeler
April 22, 2010
April
04
Apr
22
22
2010
10:27 AM
10
10
27
AM
PST
1 2 3 4

Leave a Reply