Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Does neo-Darwinian Theory Include the Origin of Life?

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Quite often when confronted with the problematic nature of explaining the arrival of the first life capable of supporting descent with modification an evolutionary theorist will say the theory has no bearing on how the first life came into existence – the theory only explains what happened after that.

Is this true?

Well, yes and no. Evolutionary theory doesn’t explain exactly how the first life was created and doesn’t demand any particular modus operandi. However, that’s not to say it doesn’t make any assumptions at all. It assumes that the first life was a simple cell and the mechanism(s) described by the theory made a simple common ancestor (or perhaps a few simple common ancestors) into the complex and diverse spectrum of life we observe today.

If you want to find out if NDE really cares about how life originated just try asserting that life originated as very complex forms that were programmed to diversify in a prescribed manner. Try saying the original form of life on the earth was like a stem cell in that it contained the unexpressed potential in it to diversify into many different forms with chance playing little if any role in the diversification process. Or better yet, for some real shrieking and howling rejection, try proposing that life originated as very complex perfect forms such as described in the Garden of Eden and the story of evolution is really a story of devolution from originally perfect, diverse forms.

In short not every modus operandi for the origin of life is acceptable – only those which don’t involve intelligent design in the origin of life. The problem is that if you admit intelligent design in the origin of life you open the door for it anywhere in the subsequent story of life. As Richard Lewontin said “We can’t let a divine foot in the door”. In actuality it’s the foot of any intelligent agent, divine or not, that isn’t allowed in the door.

It’s relatively easy to pin someone like Richard Dawkins into the uncomfortable position of either exposing his non-scientific presumptions about the origin of life or admitting that life on earth was possibly intelligently designed. All you have to do is get them to agree that intelligent life such as ourselves with the requisite skills in biochemistry to design a simple cell can evolve without intelligent agency. They are forced by their own beliefs to agree. Then you next ask if it’s possible that intelligent life evolved somewhere else in the universe first and that form subsequently designed the life we find on this planet. They must either agree that’s possible or explain why, scientifically, it isn’t possible. At that point they’re stuck between a rock and a hard place. In order to maintain the illusion of being an objective scientist with no ideological presuppositions they must admit that life on earth could be the result of design. Dawkins chose to maintain the illusion by admitting that design is a possibility then tried to weasel out of it by saying that the designer is almost certainly an evolved intelligence. If he doesn’t say almost certainly then again he admits to holding a non-scientific presumption.

Comments
The Difference Between The Universe And Earthlife Cyclic Evolutions April 18, 2015 A. The Universe And Earthlife Cyclic Evolutions : Whence, whither and how nature drives life/humanity ???? ,??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?????/???????Gravity is the monotheism of the universe (Hebrew and English) September 15, 2014 Whence, whither and how nature drives life/humanity http://universe-life.com/2014/09/15/again-the-universe-life-relationship/ ???? ,??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?????/??????? Again, The Universe/ Life Relationship, embarrassingly obvious/simple elucidation… B. The Difference Between The Universe And Earthlife Re-Cyclic Evolutions April 18, 2015 Earthlife re-cyclic evolutions are innately evolutionary genome-based memory-continuums, whereas the universe re-cyclic evolutions (approx each 20 billion, 20X10^9,years ) are each fresh, completely devoid of earlier memory via singularity, dual- poles mass-energy systems. Dov Henis (comments from 22nd century, one of the many humans with highly exaggerated self-esteem) http://universe-life.com/ Earth Life Genesis http://universe-life.com/2011/09/30/earthlife-genesis-from-aromaticityh-bonding/ Seed Of Human-Chimp Genomes Diversity http://universe-life.com/2011/07/10/seed-of-human-chimp-genomes-diversity/ Genetics is modifications of genome’s expressions in response to cultural variations, i.e. to behavioral modifications in response to circumstantial variations. DH ????? ???? ???????? ?? ??????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ??????? ??????? ?? ????????… ?? Beyond historical concepts natural selection is E (energy) temporarily constrained in an m (mass) format. Period. Money/banking system is the system-based human circumvention of nature’s drive of the ruthless natural selection melee… DHDov Henis
May 2, 2015
May
05
May
2
02
2015
03:58 AM
3
03
58
AM
PDT
(Darwinian) Evolution starts with the first organisms, which were the first individual organisms not yet genomed nor celled. Here is a comment I posted earlier today in this forum on another thread: Chirality In Life, The Earliest Surviving Darwinian Evolution Product http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=14988&st=180&#entry327715 A. From "...key to life before its origin on Earth?" http://www.physorg.com/news123440279.html#tab When scientists synthesize these molecules in the laboratory, half of a sample turns out to be “left-handed” and the other half “right-handed.” But the amino acids that are the building blocks of terrestrial proteins are all “left-handed,” while the sugars of DNA and RNA are “right-handed.” The mystery as to why this is the case, “parallels in many of its queries those that surround the origin of life...” Thanks to the pristine nature of this meteorite, we were able to demonstrate that other extraterrestrial amino acids carry the left-handed excesses in meteorites and, above all, that these excesses appear to signify that their precursor molecules, the aldehydes, also carried such excesses,” Pizzarello said. “In other words, a molecular trait that defines life seems to have broader distribution as well as a long cosmic lineage.” B. From "Allosteric, chiral-selective drug binding to DNA" http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/97/22/12032.pdf (Allosteric: of, relating to, undergoing, or being a change in the shape and activity of a protein, as an enzyme, that results from combination with another substance at a point other than the chemically active site) DNA is polymorphic and exists in a variety of distinct conformations. Duplex DNA can adopt a variety of sequence-dependent secondary structures that range from the canonical right-handed B form through the left-handed Z conformation. Multistranded triplex and tetraplex structures are now known to exist. All of these unique conformations may play important functional roles in gene expression. C. Chirality in life still awaits elucidation First, reasearch findings should be stated scientifically correctly. In A above NOT "a molecular trait that defines life seems to have broader distribution as well as a long cosmic lineage”, but YES "a molecular conformation dominant in Earth life may have broader distribution and additional cosmic presence.” Next, re in A above "the mystery as to why this is the case": My conjecture about the probable reasons for the prevailing chirality: Darwinian evolution started at life's day one, with the genesis of the first organisms, the replicating oligomers, pre-archaea genes. It started under yet-unknown energetic conditions, by a serendipitous occurrence, with oligomeric (RNA?) conformations, in a soup containing all their essential molecular progenitors. These conformations happened to absorb the amounts of energy enabling their polymerization, to lengths precipitated as determined by the nature and conditions of the soup. The sugars and the nitrogen-based compounds that, together with the phosphates, are the components of the genes-organisms, are chiral. There probably is an energetic advantage in homochirality and chiral homogeneity for the self-replication of biopolymers. This serendipitous occurrence set up a matrix-field of energy with a potential extended between its source, the sun radiation and the precipitating organisms. This was the genesis of the ongoing formation and maintenance of Earth's biosphere. And since the biosphere had thus started it could only evolve in the directions of more favorable energy balances-life-packages and towards stabler conformations. Survival was the direction. After all, this was already the course of Earth life evolution. But this is a conjecture. Chirality in life still awaits elucidation... Dov Henis http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-P81pQcU1dLBbHgtjQjxG_Q--?cq=1Dov Henis
April 1, 2008
April
04
Apr
1
01
2008
12:21 PM
12
12
21
PM
PDT
Eric [and Allen et al]: The funding issue is indeed an interesting and telling angle, but does not capture the full issue. For, if OOL is a metaphysical speculation project, it is a scientifically linked philosophical issue. That is, it is in the Lakatosian worldview-tinged "core" that ties together the "belt" of theories, models, concepts and data that are the more visible components of the evolutionary materialist "research programme." That means that the whole research programme, embracing inter alia, OOL and macro-evolution, properly, should be looked at in light of the broader phil methodology [which includes addressing scientific methods as a significant subset], i.e comparative difficulties across factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory power. Thus, all live options should be on the table, including that we know from our experience a credible source of functionally specified, complex information such as we now find in the core of life: namely, intelligent agency. So, obviously, the evolutionary materialism research programme has a major empirical adequacy problem, and that on a key point -- where does the life-ball start rolling, how? As you know, I have long since seriously argued in this blog and elsewhere that it also has a serious challenge with logical coherence, once it has to address the origin and credibility of mind. Thirdly, as we see the rise of more and more empirical and logical challenges, the whole structure is taking on the looks of an ad hoc patchwork. So, it is not at all surprising to see that there are moves to defend the system by imposing question begging definitions of science [cf my challenge to Mr Jack Krebs in the speciation thread] and/or smuggling in materialism through the back door [cf Denyse's current remark on imposing materialism in neuroscience over at DOL]. (Note also how studiously this issue was dodged by JK.) Looks more and more like the Emperor is "nekkid" . . . GEM of TKIkairosfocus
March 16, 2008
March
03
Mar
16
16
2008
02:08 AM
2
02
08
AM
PDT
Allen_MacNeill, You have repeatedly maintained that the abiogenesis issue is "pure metaphysical speculation, nothing more, and nothing less". If you really believe that, would you favor the termination of spending government scientific research funds on OOL projects? If you support continued funding of OOL projects with the government's scientific research dollars, even though "all valid theories must have empirical support" and it is not "likely that such evidence will eventually be forthcoming", then, applying a consistent standard, what other kinds of metaphysical projects could be funded with government science research dollars? If you actually consider OOL research to be legitimately scientific research, do you then consider abiogenesis to be falsifiable? If so, how? If not, how is an unfalsifiable position that is currently without the support of any empirical evidence a "scientific" position? If it is not a "scientific" position, would it be appropriate to remove any and all claims that life originated spontaneously from non-life from science textbooks? If not, what other metaphysical speculations should be permissible in science textbooks? [Regarding Huxley's principle, I will post my response in the "Complex speciation of humans and chimpanzees" thread.]ericB
March 15, 2008
March
03
Mar
15
15
2008
05:27 PM
5
05
27
PM
PDT
Allan at 23, 67 See also Letter 3154 — Darwin, C. R. to Herschel, J. F. W., 23 May [1861]] Darwin wrote:
"The point which you raise on intelligent Design has perplexed me beyond measure; & has been ably discussed by Prof. Asa Gray, with whom I have had much correspondence on the subject. I am in a complete jumble on the point. One cannot look at this Universe with all living productions & man without believing that all has been intelligently designed; yet when I look to each individual organism, I can see no evidence of this.
Darwin's acknowledging that "all has been intelligently designed" while refusing to see evidence in individual organism's appears to continue on to today.DLH
March 15, 2008
March
03
Mar
15
15
2008
03:05 PM
3
03
05
PM
PDT
Allen et al. See further discussion at: DLH at 128DLH
March 15, 2008
March
03
Mar
15
15
2008
08:39 AM
8
08
39
AM
PDT
jerry @ 89: "At which point they will say what real difference does it make. And they will be right since they do not make a big deal of it." The more important question is, why aren't they making a big deal of it to begin with? Is it because they don't want to concede that darwinian processes are powerless at that juncture where life and non-life meet and incapable of creating the wonders that are so often heaped upon it? The continued insistence for not providing the real reason is very revealing. These guys are just following the same tactics Darwin used in his Origin of Species. Darwin, the shrewd rhetorician that he was, saw the pitfalls that a discussion of OOL would entail, and smartly opted to leave the matter untouched. In similar stealthy fashion, Darwin also did not want to discuss how “organs of extreme perfection and complication,” such as the eye, could have developed via natural selection (which, btw, is something rightfully belonging in the realm of developmental biology), preferring instead to conjure up his fanciful imagination in sliding the problem away and dumping it along with OOL as matters that were of no concern to his theory.
[…] the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real. How a nerve comes to be sensitive to light, hardly concerns us more than how life itself first originated. Source: Origin of Species, Chapter 6 - Difficulties on Theory
How convenient.JPCollado
March 14, 2008
March
03
Mar
14
14
2008
01:33 PM
1
01
33
PM
PDT
Alan MacNeill @ 67: "what I asserted — that Darwin never speculated about the origin of life in written works that he published during his lifetime — is an accurate depiction of the state of affairs as far as I know." Mr. MacNeill, do you suppose this has something to do with Darwin's stealthy methods of escaping from a problem, like for instance, his similar avoidance in trying to explain how an eye could have developed or, more specifically, how an optical nerve would become sensitive to light?JPCollado
March 14, 2008
March
03
Mar
14
14
2008
11:39 AM
11
11
39
AM
PDT
Allen MacNeill @ 77: You mention cosmology (the science that studies the origin of the universe) yet fail to see how well this ties to my main argument @ #21 & #56, i.e., that physical scientists - in contrast to biologists - have indeed proposed to "speculate" on the origin of the very thing that they purport to explain.JPCollado
March 14, 2008
March
03
Mar
14
14
2008
11:03 AM
11
11
03
AM
PDT
JPCollado @ 56: “…gravity is a known law of nature confirmed by repeatable testing and precise calculations, similar to quantum electrodynamics which is accurate to 13 unyielding decimal places.” Allen_MacNeill @ 75: “Yes, but neither Newton nor Einstein proposed any explanation of why the gravitational force exists, only that it does. Furthermore, the most important physicist in the development of quantum electrodynamics, Richard Feinman (formerly of Cornell, BTW) himself admitted that he couldn’t explain why the theory works, only that it does.” C’mon, Mr. MacNeill. I wasn’t the one who introduced the concept of gravity to begin with. As a matter of fact, your response in post # 75 is further substantiation of what I was trying to elucidate in # 56 (specifically, points 1 and 3). Incredibly, now you are agreeing with me that using gravity as a starting point for explaining the origin of the universe is quite misplaced. And that was one of my lines of argument - that the analogy is just simply flawed on the grounds that it is not an adequate platform for analyzing or exploring the relevant questions as should be. Also, the question was not why gravity exists, but how it has come to exist. Weren’t we discussing the origin of things in the first place? Let me reiterate what I wrote in # 56: "3) scientists have also proposed to explain the origin of the universe by way of multiple theoretical models, not the least of which is the Big Bang, the grand-daddy of them all (which, again, has nothing to do with gravity and atoms as starting points." Here now I am amazed to see that you are destroying the analogy that you introduced as a way of countering my original argument (at post # 21), viz. ”if a theory is to be hailed as the cornerstone of a particular field of study it should at least fruitfully address the origin of the very thing that it purports to explain.” All of this just to save face and protect a helpless and indaquate theory.JPCollado
March 14, 2008
March
03
Mar
14
14
2008
10:26 AM
10
10
26
AM
PDT
DLH @ 88. Excellent summary. I just can’t fathom how a profession devoted to the study of a given subject would resist exploring an area of such great relevance and import as offering the potential for shedding further enlightenment. One would think that biologists would be interested to know how the first living entity acquired those astounding attributes that so sets it apart from the rest of the inanimate world. The nature of OOL research demands a multidisciplinary approach requiring the joint effort of chemists/physicists/biologists alike because of the thin veil existing between the living and non-living at the moment of the existential differentiation and separation. Isn’t the long-standing, insurmountable mystery of OOL enough to compel scientists of all stripe to work together in finding a solution? Like others have said in this thread, it is but a copout when an evolutionist says that OOL is not a subject of study for biology. As if geochemists working autonomously are in a more enviously advantageous position for settling the matter. Washing one’s hands and leaving the responsibility to others is counterproductive and against the soul of science, when active cooperation proves to be the more efficacious alternative. Isn’t curiosity the father of discovery? Taking such a stance speaks volumes about the possible ramifications that may be had and gives us a glimpse of a possible backlash that evolutionists may be fearing. And talk about science stoppers. At least, finding out what was it that generated the first living thing could prove helpful in determining whether all life forms actually came from a single common ancestor or multiple sources.JPCollado
March 14, 2008
March
03
Mar
14
14
2008
09:51 AM
9
09
51
AM
PDT
“Has [Lynn Margulis] observed free-living bacteria engulfing other free-living bacteria, with the engulfed bacteria continuing to live inside of the first one?” Allen Macneill: Yes, thousands of times. You can, too; the most common example is a bacterium called Bdellavibrio, which penetrates the cells of other bacteria and lives inside them as a semi-parasite. It drills/ bores inside and eats the host from the inside out. Once it starts replicating it’s all over for the host. Not a very good symbiotic relationship developer. Allen: However, a much more spectacular example is an Australian protozoan named Myxotricha paradoxa. This protozoan lives in the guts of wood-eating termites. Protozoan. I was unaware that a protozoan was now classified as a “free-living bacteria”. Is that what you teach? Allen Macneill: On superficial examination, they appear to be very large ciliated protozoa. However, on closer examination they can be seen to consist of several hundred symbiotic bacteria of at least three distinct types (”species”, although this concept does not apply to bacteria). Lynn often shows videos of Mixotricha to illustrate her concept of serial endosymbiosis (as she did in her lecture last month for Cornell’s Darwin Day celebration). There is a better example with a melee bug. That is a bacteria living inside of a melee bug has another bacteria inside of it. So what I get from this is if we have suitable hosts- termites, protozoans and melee bugs- then we can observe a form of endosymbiosis, therefor endosymbiosis for the origins of organelles in eukaryotes is confirmed. Sounds fishy to me.Joseph
March 14, 2008
March
03
Mar
14
14
2008
05:03 AM
5
05
03
AM
PDT
H'mm: While I see Windows Vista is acting up again [I REALLY cannot recommend it!!!], I must comment on the below extract from 89:
[Jerry, 89:] I bet if you asked the typical commenter here whether Dembski’s work is primarily concerned with OOL or evolution, they would answer evolution. And they would be wrong. While his ideas are being extended to include evolution they are primarily about OOL and the origin of specified information in DNA. (I am sure there will be many ready to line and say different) Behe is nearly 100% about evolution. There are some similarities between OOL and evolution. We use arguments used to discredit macro evolution to also discredit OOL. If we found naturalistic causes to support macro evolution, those same causes would then be invoked to support OOL. The fact that we do not find any naturalistic causes for macro evolution let’s us extend this argument against OOL.
I am not so sure that WD's work is primarily about OOL and only by extension macro-evolution:
1 --> Last I checked, WD is in the main dealing with origin of INFORMATION of a particular type or two [a] complex, specified information (CSI) (of which [bio-]functionally specified, complex information [FSCI] is a relevant subset), and latterly, [b] active information that enables search algorithms to exceed the on-average performance [including failure!] of random walk searches. 2 --> In that context, he has proposed an explanatory filter which allows us to distinguish on an observed reliable empirical basis among: necessity, chance and intelligent design/agency. 3 --> In short, [1] if lawlike natural regularity rooted in mechanical necessity then "necessity"; [2] if highly contingent, then either chance or design; [3] if "simply" specifiable [in various relevant senses such as Kolmogorov complexity or by observable functionality etc] and complex beyond odds of 1 in 10^150 then design; [4] otherwise, chance. 4 --> In all cases where we directly know/observe the causal story, and where this filter rules "design," it is correct. [It is deliberately designed to be prone to false negatives and will potentially rule "chance" in many cases where the design is not sufficiently complex.] 5 --> On both OOL and macro-evolution, we see that we address the origin of complex, bio-functionally specified information. In the first case, to get to/ account for the first viable life form. In the second, to originate/ account for especially body-plan level bio-diversity. 6 --> For both cases, the information found in and expressed physically through the DNA-RNA-Ribosome-Enzyme protein system is a highly relevant case in point. Of these, it is convenient to select DNA, a code-bearing storage molecule that ranges 300 - 500,000 to 3 - 4 bn base pairs, each having four possible states. 7 --> Relevant to OOL, Meyer informs us that 300 k is about the lower limit observed for viable cell-based life. But 4^300,000 ~ 9.94 * 10^180,617. 8 --> That is the configuration space for the shortest credibly viable DNA chain -- ignoring issues over pre-biotic spontaneous synthesis of relevant monomers, formation of sufficiently long chains to be credible and chirality [on either RNA world or metabolism first scenarios as already noted] -- is vastly beyond the UPB. Even if we assume 10^1000 islands of biofunctional states, each with 10^150 states, that is not even a droplet in the bucket. 9 --> That is, we see no credible basis for a random walk based search in a prebiotic soup getting to the shoreline of an island of biofunction from the assumed arbitrary start point. But, we know that agents are capable of using insight, skill and intent to design and effect highly isolated specified functional structures in highly contingent contexts, e.g. even this thread in aggregate is a case in point. 10 --> As Meyer pointed out in PBSW, the sort of body-plan level bio-diversity exhibited in say the Cambrian life revolution is also a case relevant to generation of CSI. For, we are dealing with the origin of dozens of phyla and sub-phyla, requiring novel architectures for cells, organs and systems as well as the body as a while. For instance we move from a few mn base prs for unicellular organism to for comparison 180 million base pairs for a modern arthropod; here viewed as a model for the complexity of say a trilobite. We similarly have to account for the complexity of say a starfish and a chordate -- all within the window allowed by the conventional geological timescale. 11 --> An increment of 100 mn base pairs entails an increment of ~ 1.36*10^60,205,999 in the required config space; and such has to happen several times over. This dwarfs even the challenge at OOL, even if we make generous allowances for "junk" DNA or the like. 12 --> In short for BOTH ool and oo body plan level biodiversity, we see required increments in CSI that are not credible relative to the available probabilistic resources of the observed cosmos and moreso, the 4.5 By usually held to be available on earth [much less the 5 - 10 MY usually held to be the duration of the Cambrian window].
I therefore conclude that the work of Dembski is relevant to both cases, as I discuss in my always linked. Further to this, the key observation is that once it was recognised that a code-bearing molecule of enormous storage capacity and functionality lies at the heart of the cell, we have opened a series of bridges to all the science of information, thermodynamics and chemistry, inter alia. Thus, there are now serious, empirically anchored challenges to the concepts advanced through the Darwinian syntheses of the 1830's - 50's and also the 1930's, based on the rise of information science since the 1940's. And NDT is not doing so well in addressing these challenges. Dr MacNeill has more or less tried to cordon off the OOL problem [though there is enough evidence form other quarters to show that NDT is part of an integrated paradigm of proposed materialistic evolutions form hydrogen to humans]. Indeed, conformity to this cascade has become in effect an unacknowledged criterion for definition of what is "scientific," in many quarters: things are "scientific" only if they conform to this grand story of of origins. But the same basic challenge holds for macro-level, body-plan originating evolution. And WD's work applies to both. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
March 13, 2008
March
03
Mar
13
13
2008
11:24 PM
11
11
24
PM
PDT
jerry at 89 "whether Dembski’s work is primarily concerned with OOL or evolution," Any evidence on your assertions? e.g. See his papers on conservation of information in searching etc. Publications Evolutionary Informatics Lab.DLH
March 13, 2008
March
03
Mar
13
13
2008
07:09 PM
7
07
09
PM
PDT
Charlie at 90 Good catch. While Allen has nominally supported #3, I will now presume Allen has not seriously considered the implications of #3.DLH
March 13, 2008
March
03
Mar
13
13
2008
09:26 AM
9
09
26
AM
PDT
Allen, Thank you for the references on endosymbiosis- ie Dr Margulis' experiments..Joseph
March 13, 2008
March
03
Mar
13
13
2008
08:29 AM
8
08
29
AM
PDT
Hi Allen, At #81 DLH says you affirm his third point: That neo-Darwinian theory assumes 3) The four primary forces are sufficient to explain all processes observed in nature. I know that the complete implications of this thought are not the exact point, but did you mean, in fact, to affirm this when you said "Precisely"? At that comment #69 you also said this:
This, therefore, neither “proves” nor “disproves” the assertion that the origin of life from such chemicals is possible or impossible via natural means. As I have stated before, this means that there is no empirical evidence either way, and I suspect there never will be.
As Paul Giem implied at #74, you seem to be off on what constitutes "evidence" on this point. ps. As an example of evidence which does not rely on "proof" v. "disproof" you mention Pakicetus - as an aside, has this freshwater creature not now been replaced as an ancestor to modern whales to now stand as an example of "convergence"?Charlie
March 13, 2008
March
03
Mar
13
13
2008
07:42 AM
7
07
42
AM
PDT
tribune7, "That’s fine. But why do they have a page called Origin of Life– From soup to cells on a site called Understanding Evolution, Evolution 101?" Why don't you ask them about the supposed contradiction, I can give you a stock answer and that is "People ask about it and thus we include a brief discussion about the chemical evolution of life." And then you can give them your reply that this isn't entirely consistent because of the two pages. At which point they will say what real difference does it make. And they will be right since they do not make a big deal of it. I find this entire discussion of little use unless it helps separate the two issues in people's minds. But even with this discussion there is an attempt to conflate them. Both OOL and the macro evolution part of the modern synthesis are equally bogus as far as I am concerned and it is important to make the distinctions between them and the then subsequent arguments against each. Just as it is important to make the distinction between macro evolution and micro evolution and that natural selection has been very productive but only in micro evolution. But many people here don't make that distinction either. I bet if you asked the typical commenter here whether Dembski's work is primarily concerned with OOL or evolution, they would answer evolution. And they would be wrong. While his ideas are being extended to include evolution they are primarily about OOL and the origin of specified information in DNA. (I am sure there will be many ready to line and say different) Behe is nearly 100% about evolution. There are some similarities between OOL and evolution. We use arguments used to discredit macro evolution to also discredit OOL. If we found naturalistic causes to support macro evolution, those same causes would then be invoked to support OOL. The fact that we do not find any naturalistic causes for macro evolution let's us extend this argument against OOL. People here have a singular objective, to discredit materialism. And because of that they often do not see the forrest for the trees and look for any argument whether it is coherent or not. If you are looking for fodder to discredit materialism using OOL specifically then look at the statements of both MacNeill and Robert Hazen who has written a popular book on OOL. Both of them say we essentially know nothing. They will not admit the enormity of the problem only that we know essentiall nothing. As such this sentiment should appear in every biology textbook in existence. But it won't. What appears is the latest speculations presented as facts. Hazen has lots of optimism about finding a solution and expresses the opinion that it is just a matter of time before we find the explanation. But all he presents is his optimism and a myriad of speculative concepts. And he is at the center of research on this issue.jerry
March 13, 2008
March
03
Mar
13
13
2008
07:42 AM
7
07
42
AM
PDT
Allen et al. Some consider OOL "part of" neo-Darwinian "modern" evolution, others insist that it is separate. Either way, does not neo-Darwinian evolution require self replicating life to start with? See DLH at #45 and MacNeill at#69 above. For atelic models, BOTH of these assume "stochastic" variations or "random" mutations. The major difference as I see it is that "neo-Darwinism" assumes filtering by "natural selection" while OOL does not yet have "life" which at least requires a self replicating cell. Neo-Darwinists appeal to "natural selection" as "creating" the observed increase in coded DNA and new cell forms and body plans (Which ID sees as new "complex specified information" that is NOT mechanistically causable by "natural selection"). However, OOL does not have the self replicating cell on which "natural selection" can work. (Though I see various Darwinian enthusiasts try to appeal to "natural selection" for OOL mechanisms.) So foundationally, I see materialistic OOL has no "natural selection" of self replicating cells. Consequently it only has 1) stochastic or random variation and 2) "self organization" due to natural forces. e.g. macromolecule "coalescing" or "folding" caused by stereo constraints and by Van der Waals forces or similar arguments. This raises even greater challenges than neo-Darwinisism to explain 3) The origin of coded information in DNA 4) The "information processing" mechanisms of 4a) replicating DNA and 4b) expressing proteins from DNA. 5) Energy capture/conversion to biotic energy. (e.g. photosynthesis, ATPsynthase and ATP cycles.) 6) Cell membranes with ion pumps, nuclear pores, systems to replicate those components and other "material processing" systems. Allen has further pointed to major cell mechanisms or the "phenome" complementary to and not explainable by the "genome." There are further error correction mechanisms needed to preserve the coded information from being destroyed by "entropy" via "random mutation". ID sees no foundational method for neo-Darwinism to "create" the increased "Complex Specified Information" starting from the self reproducing cell. ID sees far greater problems of taking stochastic processes of the four laws of nature and arriving at "life" with self reproducing cells. And yet neo-Darwinism requires this to proceed. Thus whether OOL is "part of" "neo-Darwinism" or not, it is still "foundational" and necessary to it. If "neo-Darwinism" seeks to require only materialistic causes, then we expect it to equivalently require only materialistic causes for OOL. (Though Darwin attributed it to the Creator as politically correct for his day.) Thus the challenge to neo-Darwinists is provide mechanisms that even conceptually arrive at coded information, energy processing, etc. in self reproducing cells that is separate from "self organization" by the stochastic four laws of physics. Theoretical physics happly models black holes and other astronomical objects on which we cannot run physical experiments. While there are no "fossils" for the origin of Life etc. that does not mean that known processes of chemistry, physics and biochemistry cannot be applied. It is from what we KNOW of physics, chemistry, biochemistry and the foundational stochastic processes of the four forces that ID holds that OOL and neo-Darwinism is foundationally incapable of arriving at the new coded information and fine tuned operations and energy flows of the simplest living cells, let alone biotic systems with complex body plans. Correspondingly, it is from what we KNOW that coded information and intricately designed are caused by intelligent agents (as in computers, information storage, software programming etc.) that ID attributes biotic systems to originate by intelligent agents. This is what I mean when I say that OOL is the "Achilles heel" of neo-Darwinism, whether OOL is considered a part of neo-Darwinism or not. See: The Altenberg 16 comment by DLH #167 and Response by Allen_MacNeill at Altenbert 16 comment #174DLH
March 13, 2008
March
03
Mar
13
13
2008
06:24 AM
6
06
24
AM
PDT
If you went over the entire Berkeley site on evolution you might see similar proportions for evolution vs. OOL. That's fine. But why do they have a page called Origin of Life-- From soup to cells on a site called Understanding Evolution, Evolution 101?tribune7
March 13, 2008
March
03
Mar
13
13
2008
06:09 AM
6
06
09
AM
PDT
Allen, All the "evidence" to support cetacean evolution from a land mammal is circumstantial at best and relies on the assumption. Now if I assumed a common design I could also incorporate that SAME evidence into that scenario. And if I assumed convergence I could still incorporate the SAME evidence into that scenario. IOW UCD is nothing more than magical mystery mutations plus father time. Until someone can account for the physiological and anatomical differences via the genetic differences alll you have is speculation based on the assumption. And THAT is why I chose technology over biology as a career.Joseph
March 13, 2008
March
03
Mar
13
13
2008
05:15 AM
5
05
15
AM
PDT
tribune7, A popular college biology text I just purchased, Sadava, Heller, Orians, Purves and Hillis, 2008 devotes 280 pages to evolution and 7 pages to origin of life or a ratio of 40 to 1. The OOL part is in the first section of the book when the chemistry of biology is discussed. If you went over the entire Berkeley site on evolution you might see similar proportions for evolution vs. OOL. One reason I am sure is that they feel less comfortable with making any claims about how OOL happened. If I get to read all of Sadava et al's text on evolution, then I will see what evidence they provide that Darwinian processes can produce complexity. My guess is that it will be little. There is a framework for evolution but not for OOL so this is why there is much more devoted to it. They actually believe Darwinian processes work but have no faith in anything related to OOL. Since a lot of Dembski's work is directly relevant to OOL, it is likely that a lot of people conflate the two topics. Behe's work is more directly related to evolution. Since ID subsumes the two approaches, those coming to ID get the two perceived as one until enough is made of the difference.jerry
March 12, 2008
March
03
Mar
12
12
2008
08:13 PM
8
08
13
PM
PDT
Allen_MacNeill (69): "As I have stated before, this means that there is no empirical evidence either way, and I suspect there never will be." Hi, Allen. Say, I seem to have missed your response to my posts 38 and 40 above on this point. I will readily grant your general points that 1) OOL is itself outside the scope of evolutionary biology, 2) That this is therefore outside your area of expertise (so it is reasonable that you should not be expected to defend or assess particular positions in the matter), and 3) OOL is more so in the line of interest for physicists and chemists, rather than biologists. I affirm all three. But then, on what basis do you confidently exclude the possibility of empirical evidence on the matter, especially when I have already quoted from scientists who are in those fields and who say there has been an increase in relevant empirical evidence on the matter (albeit not in favor of the abiogenesists)? Is it reasonable to both place it outside your field and your expertise, and insist that it is not amenable to empirical evidence, despite the statements of those in the relevant fields to the contrary?ericB
March 12, 2008
March
03
Mar
12
12
2008
07:40 PM
7
07
40
PM
PDT
ericB Here ye, here ye. MacNeill is a gentleman and a scholar. We all wish his example was not so uncommon.DLH
March 12, 2008
March
03
Mar
12
12
2008
07:33 PM
7
07
33
PM
PDT
Atom: "But if you speak with a civil tone and still disagree with me, I see no reason to ban you. ..." I'd like to add that in my experience Allen_MacNeill has consistently set an excellent example for bringing an informed, thoughtful, and civil evolutionary perspective to discussions. I also give him high marks among evolutionists for his crystal clear understanding about certain issues, e.g. that natural selection is not an engine of evolution. I don't agree with everything he says (more in a moment), but I would be hard pressed to think of an evolutionist representative that I would rather see in a panel discussion.ericB
March 12, 2008
March
03
Mar
12
12
2008
07:18 PM
7
07
18
PM
PDT
Allen MacNeill at 69 Thanks for your affirmation that: “neo-Darwinian evolution assumes: * 1) Life which can experience “random mutation”. * 2) Life is self replicating and subject to subsequent “natural selection”. * 3) The four primary forces are sufficient to explain all processes observed in nature.” Let us explore the next step back in time and consider if: “neo-Darwinian evolution assumes that: 6). Stochastic processes of the four forces of nature are sufficient to form simple genomic life that can experience “random mutation”. 7). Stochastic processes of the four forces of nature are sufficient to form self replicating simple life with inheritable changes that experiences “natural selection.” You further stated:
Once again, they do not happen (as far as we have been able to determine to date) in non-living arrangements of chemicals.
Further to this statement, consider the alternative presupposition: “8). Simple life experiences inheritable variations, some of which may affect reproduction. Whether life originated from stochastic natural processes, or included intelligent causation is unknown.” Does neo-Darwinian modern evolution require 6) and 7)? OR could it consider 8)? DLH
March 12, 2008
March
03
Mar
12
12
2008
06:48 PM
6
06
48
PM
PDT
Allan_MacNeill at 78 Thank you for your acknowledgment. It helps to hold each other accountable.DLH
March 12, 2008
March
03
Mar
12
12
2008
06:31 PM
6
06
31
PM
PDT
Allen_MacNeill Thanks for responding and affirming that neo-Darwinism holds: "* 3) The four primary forces are sufficient to explain all processes observed in nature." This restates materialism, and per force excludes intelligent agents or asserts that "intelligent agents" are but stochastic materialistic processes. In particular, it disavows "theistic evolution", because limiting processes to "the four primary forces" precludes any action of a theistic or deistic "creator" (no matter how much Kenneth Miller protests.) By saying neo-Darwinism affirming: "* 4) Intelligent causation of any of the genome or “phenome” is not detectable or testable." it specifically a priori claims that panspermia, with alien formation of genomes and seeding on Earth, is not detectable. However, Craig Venter et al. have coded a copyright into DNA.
GTCGTGCAATTGGAGTAGAGAACACAGAACGA [33] (CRAIGVENTER) GTAGAAAACACCGAACGAATTAATTCTACGATTACCGTGACTGAG [45] (VENTERINSTITVTE) CATGCAATGTCGATGATTACCCAC [24] (HAMSMITH) TGCATAAACGACATCGCTAATGACTGTCTTTATGATGAA [39] (CINDIANDCLYDE) GGTCTAGCTAGTAGCGCGAATGACTGCCTATACGATGAG [39] (GLASSANDCLYDE)
Thus any blanket assertion by neoDarwinism that "Intelligent causation of the genome . . . is not detectable or testable" is now contradicted by evidence of the recent detection of intelligent causation in artificial DNA.DLH
March 12, 2008
March
03
Mar
12
12
2008
05:53 PM
5
05
53
PM
PDT
DLH: I stand corrected; what I should have said is what I said in my later post: that Darwin never speculated in his published works about the origin of life. I knew this when I wrote the previous post, but was not careful enough in qualifying my description. So sue me...Allen_MacNeill
March 12, 2008
March
03
Mar
12
12
2008
05:52 PM
5
05
52
PM
PDT
JPCollado also wrote: "...we don’t hear cosmologists, physicists or chemists praising a particular theory as the cornerstone of the physical sciences." We don't? Then why does John Wheeler's book on gravitation (arguably the most influential book on the subject ever published) begin with a detailed analysis of Einstein's theory of general relativity, upon which virtually all modern cosmology and gravitational physics is based? Scientists don't so much go into "praise"; what passes for "praise" in science is citing someone every time you talk about a particular subject. Like Darwin, for example, when one is talking about evolution...Allen_MacNeill
March 12, 2008
March
03
Mar
12
12
2008
05:44 PM
5
05
44
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4

Leave a Reply