Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Elizabeth Liddle’s Revisionism is Astonishingly Audacious!

Categories
Intelligent Design
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

In a prior post I took Dr. Liddle (sorry for the misspelled name) to task for this statement:

“Darwinian hypotheses make testable predictions and ID hypotheses (so far) don’t.”

I responded that this was not true and noted that:

For years Darwinists touted “junk DNA” as not just any evidence but powerful, practically irrefutable evidence for the Darwinian hypothesis. ID proponents disagreed and argued that the evidence would ultimately demonstrate function.

Not only did both hypotheses make testable predictions, the Darwinist prediction turned out to be false and the ID prediction turned out to be confirmed

Liddle resonds:

Sorry Barry that that example simply does not work.

Darwinian theory would only predict unused sequences of DNA were it to be the case that unused sequences had no metabolic or other cost . . .

And I will be first in line to cite Darwinian hypotheses that have been falsified. But not the “junk DNA” hypothesis.

Nor will I accept that “no junk DNA” was a positive prediction of ID. It is neither positive, nor is it a prediction.

Dr. Liddle, have you no shame? All I can say is your revisionist history is stunning in its scope and audacity.

Whole books were written by ID proponents about the Darwinist myth of junk DNA. See here.

The ID position has now been largely vindicated and the Darwinist position debunked.

You know that. Therefore, I simply cannot imagine that you assert to the contrary in good faith. If I did not know better, charity would demand that I ascribe your statements to near invincible ignorance. Sadly, that option is not open to me. Therefore, I can only conclude that you are willfully and mendaciously misrepresenting the record.

You made a false statement in the prior post. I posted a second post calling you out. Instead of conceding or retracting you doubled down. Will you double down again or will you retract?

 

Comments
122 comments and no one has actually answered the questions Elizabeth posed. If they are so obvious and well known, then it can't be a difficult job to dispatch them. But I don't think they can be that obvious, because several ID supporters in this thread have said that junk DNA is compatable with ID. Others's have said it's obvious some amount of junk is OK, but not how much. The closest thing we've had to evidence for any of the claims made is a link to a book by Jonathan Wells. So, 122 comments in and we are still at the position summarised by the first comment - was Elizabeth really banned for not agreeing with Wells' book?wd400
October 5, 2013
October
10
Oct
5
05
2013
02:35 PM
2
02
35
PM
PDT
KN:
Then why haven’t I been banned?
Elizabeth was like an old toy. You're like a new toy. When a new toy comes along and you're more like the old toy...Mung
October 5, 2013
October
10
Oct
5
05
2013
02:34 PM
2
02
34
PM
PDT
...millions of transposable elements... make up almost half of our genome...It is tempting to think of them as millions of ancient but now mostly benign parasites trapped within our genome. Some scientists have even called them "junk DNA," implying that they are useless and, currently, harmless relics of evolution. ...Most of them appear to be completely useless. - Fairbanks, Daniel J. Relics of Eden: The Powerful Evidence of Evolution in Human DNA. pp 44-45
Some scientists have even called them "junk DNA," but not in any scientific papers, oh no.Mung
October 5, 2013
October
10
Oct
5
05
2013
02:31 PM
2
02
31
PM
PDT
Elizabeth was banned for refusing to acknowledge the truth staring her in the face. When people are prepared to do that, what’s to discuss?
Then why haven't I been banned?Kantian Naturalist
October 5, 2013
October
10
Oct
5
05
2013
02:29 PM
2
02
29
PM
PDT
The fact remains that no one has clearly said why Lizzie was banned. The closest we have come to it was nothing that she wrote, or that somebody else wrote that she agreed with, but merely her failure to criticise something written on her blog. Is that it?
That's certainly how it seems to me, though all we've established thus far is that I'm not as smart as Barry thought I was.Kantian Naturalist
October 5, 2013
October
10
Oct
5
05
2013
02:28 PM
2
02
28
PM
PDT
Elizabeth was banned for refusing to acknowledge the truth staring her in the face. When people are prepared to do that, what's to discuss?Mung
October 5, 2013
October
10
Oct
5
05
2013
02:25 PM
2
02
25
PM
PDT
If there is anyone that deserves to be banned, it is KF-GEM. IDists won't support that. But the fanaticism is readily apparent. Go sit on your Caribbean shore, unplug, take a break seek some counseling, see a priest, meditate, breathe deeply, question whether your *billions* is as secure as you fantastically imagine scientistically, and come back in a month or so with a fresh mindset. Right now, the devil who accuses *anyone anti-IDism* of 'poisoning the well' and 'slander' and all such pathological things is quite obviously the most pathological and divisive of them all.Gregory
October 5, 2013
October
10
Oct
5
05
2013
02:18 PM
2
02
18
PM
PDT
RB: More empty turnabout accusation tactics unresponsive to the material points already noted. Sadly predictable, and further distractive from the material issue of TSZ's hosting slander and enabling an environment in which slanders are taken as self evident truths, "justifying" a kulturkampf. It is time for you to think again about what you are enabling. KFkairosfocus
October 5, 2013
October
10
Oct
5
05
2013
02:15 PM
2
02
15
PM
PDT
Another ilk? Or is this the same ilk?Reciprocating Bill
October 5, 2013
October
10
Oct
5
05
2013
02:14 PM
2
02
14
PM
PDT
Jerad: I have repeatedly pointed out that to host defamation is to enable it. EL has been doing so, and continues to do so. And, unfortunately she as well as several others of her ilk, have kept on resorting to well known agit-prop tactics of a sadly familiar provenance -- probably indirectly filtered through the destructive but apallingly widespread influence of Alinsky on "change agent" thought and praxis (as I pointed out also but which you conveniently omitted in making up ad hominem soaked strawmen above). If we refuse to learn from the sad associated history, we will be prone to make the same blunders in our time, as I have underscored; which is a legitimate use of that sad history. As I just pointed out, you just parroted such tactics. I think you need to take a serious pause and think again on what you are enabling. KFkairosfocus
October 5, 2013
October
10
Oct
5
05
2013
02:10 PM
2
02
10
PM
PDT
"Nor do I think that you are making any positive impression by enabling KF’s paranoia." - Jerad It is true that I don't accept or agree with Jerad's agnostic (or atheist - I don't know) worldview, but the above is a bang-on accurate observation of Barry's 'ban' decision re: Elisabeth Liddle. It would be astonishing for Barry to actually step up to the plate and call KF-GEM out for his blatantly obvious paranoia. MC Hammer might actually stand behind Barry as 2-legit-to-quit if he did so. Too much 'community serving,' even to the discredibility of the core is a disservice. KF-GEM is fanatical, excessive and boring with his 'won't try to publish, but there are *billions of cases FSCO/Iism'. The guy simply needs to unplug, take a break, stop thinking he is 'all that' for the IDist hyper-cause of Truth, Justice and the American way. Can I get a hurrah?! Elisabeth Liddle rises above this low-level fanaticism; she is a scholar and asks open, honest and occasionally insightful questions, even if she does not (yet again) allow the Uppercase 'Designer' into her heart that IDists require, which separates them purposefully from atheists. It is imo a discredit to UD that she has been once again banished. Perhaps legal scholat Barry will reconsider his view of justice or explain it more fully here in this case.Gregory
October 5, 2013
October
10
Oct
5
05
2013
02:08 PM
2
02
08
PM
PDT
The fact remains that no one has clearly said why Lizzie was banned. The closest we have come to it was nothing that she wrote, or that somebody else wrote that she agreed with, but merely her failure to criticise something written on her blog. Is that it?Mark Frank
October 5, 2013
October
10
Oct
5
05
2013
02:06 PM
2
02
06
PM
PDT
KF:
Are you willing to characterise objectors to design thought as a class — rather than as specific individuals and circles — as indulging that pattern of well poisoning behaviour? What does that say?
You certainly engage in well-poisoning second to none, in my opinion, using the same sort of language to which you object - in the above instance using the exact words to which you've reacted with Apoplexy Now (well, If there were such a thing as long-winded apoplexy.) That is sufficient to establish to irony to which I refer. I have varying impressions of other individual ID supporters here. With a range of personalities from Joe G. to Vjtorley a global characterization can't be productive, and there is certainly only one of you in the world. This little tempest in a teapot doesn't otherwise make itself felt anywhere else in my personal or professional life, where the phrase "design thought" mostly conjures images of Jony Ive. By the way, when you are done objecting to "broad-brush defamatory characterizations" and characterizations of others "as a class," what is my "ilk," and who else is of it?Reciprocating Bill
October 5, 2013
October
10
Oct
5
05
2013
02:05 PM
2
02
05
PM
PDT
#102 Barry
Ironic question coming from a person who has commented freely on this site since 2006
It appears you have got so used to banning people you forget who you have banned. You banned me last year for refusing to agree to certain statements (I forget exactly which). I recently found I could log on again.Mark Frank
October 5, 2013
October
10
Oct
5
05
2013
02:04 PM
2
02
04
PM
PDT
Jerad: The grotesque, ill founded and patently slanderous conspiracy narrative being hosted at TSZ is there for all to see. There is no excuse for it, there can be no excuse for it. But, a well-worn tactic is to throw out the immoral equivalency card. However, as just pointed out to RB (and doubtless the usual denizens of TSZ, AtBC, Anti Evo etc) the attempt in the face of that fact to try to create a turnabout accusation -- and to thereby pretend to be justified! -- fails by virtue of trying to conflate what I criticised (a very ugly pattern of well-poisoning misbehaviour characteristic of the most ruthless agit-prop operators and of which we unfortunately have too many cases in point . . . ) with the core identity of millions swept up in a series of slanderous stereotypes culminating in declaring such enemies of humanity. If you are an objector to design theory but you are not playing the red herring --> strawman --> soak in ad hominems --> stereotype & scapegoat etc --> blame the victim etc tactic, you do not fit the category I censured as dangerously nihilist and destructively poisoning a well from which we all may need to drink. But Mr Hook's accusations and conspiracy yarns take in design supporters, equated to Creationists (already wrong) and further equated without good warrant to an imagined right wing theocratic totalitarian conspiracy, thence deemed enemies of humanity. Imagined ringleaders being primary, and their imagined dupes being secondary. Chalk to cheese. And of course, lo and behold the gambit RB pout up is a blatant red herring, led to a strawman distortion [chalk for cheese] soaked in turnabout accusation ad hominems and then set alight to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the atmosphere, thus enabling the poison of the original slander to continue its insidious, fell work. See what is going on, and why I highlighted this destructive pattern, exposing it for what it is? That you are -- at this point, sadly, predictably -- trying to enable this toxic comeback and pretend to competence to diagnose me as suffering a serious mental illness (shades of Dawkins' if you differ with us, you are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked . . . ) speak volumes. None of it to your good. I suggest you think again, about the pattern of rhetoric you are parroting. KFkairosfocus
October 5, 2013
October
10
Oct
5
05
2013
02:00 PM
2
02
00
PM
PDT
Collin, You've pulled that presumption out of a hat. "whether ID predicts a lack of junk DNA and Darwinism predicts the existence of junk DNA" IDism, qua ideology, does not limit 'Designism' (as if Designism could even possibly be limited!!. You don't see works by IDist leaders explaining the vast numbers of 'things that aren't Designed.' That's not part of the IDist program. The term 'junk' is a rather strange one, imo. Junky, junkhead, etc. Throw out your junk. It's a term biologists/geneticist appropriated from the humanities/social sciences (recently I was at a major European event; they call it Social Sciences and Humanities, just as the Canadian SSHRC calls it). So I am not fascinated by the silly grovelling between IDists and those who still think Darwinian evolution is the best explanation. You will notice, however, and perhaps openly admit, that it is/was Barry who used the '-ist' term 'Darwinist,' while Lizzie used 'Darwinian evolution' i.e. w/out the '-ist.' Do you acknowledge that? Thanks if you are willing to count that fact.Gregory
October 5, 2013
October
10
Oct
5
05
2013
01:53 PM
1
01
53
PM
PDT
In that case, Barry, I'm not as smart as you thought I was. I don't see the difference between myself and Lizzie with regard to the substantive criticisms we make of design theory, the philosophy of science that we defend, or the tone we take in discussing these matters. So either there's some difference between me and Lizzie that I don't see myself, or there's something else going on which makes a difference which I don't think does or should. One thing I will say is that I'm not a biologist, though I do have an undergraduate background in biology, so I confine my remarks and criticisms to philosophical and cultural issues. I know that I don't know enough to hold my own in a substantive discussion about biology, though I can hold my own (I think to think) in a discussion about the philosophy of biology.Kantian Naturalist
October 5, 2013
October
10
Oct
5
05
2013
01:34 PM
1
01
34
PM
PDT
Gregory, Do you think it legitimate to pull out the old trope that "ID isn't science because it doesn't publish in professional journals?" Especially where we're talking about whether ID predicts a lack of junk DNA and Darwinism predicts the existence of junk DNA? Although I wouldn't have banned Dr. Liddle, I did think she was being impertinent and annoying. Do you think that ID needs to have had published predictions before you can say that ID predicts no junk DNA?Collin
October 5, 2013
October
10
Oct
5
05
2013
01:17 PM
1
01
17
PM
PDT
I’m not a brilliant lawyer, admittedly. Just a PhD-academic. So probably I’m an idiot too.
Well, you know what PhD stands for? "Piled higher and Deeper." Or is is "Pointy headed Dilettante"? I can never remember.Jerad
October 5, 2013
October
10
Oct
5
05
2013
01:14 PM
1
01
14
PM
PDT
Admittedly, all I see in #3, the post which got Dr. Elisabeth Liddle *again* banned, expelled, excused, deleted, *%$#-off to her from UD, etc. is 3 simple questions. I'm not a brilliant lawyer, admittedly. Just a PhD-academic. So probably I'm an idiot too.Gregory
October 5, 2013
October
10
Oct
5
05
2013
01:07 PM
1
01
07
PM
PDT
Barry, there’s no need to keep pretending that you banned EL for anything other than exposing the flaws in your reasoning. Your readers who welcome the return to the echo chamber don’t need to hear it, as they already blame her for every evil. The rest of us don’t believe you. Your inability to answer her simple questions, together with your extensive track record of using moderation powers to bully dissent out of sight, speak much louder than your weak protestations. Nor do I think that you are making any positive impression by enabling KF’s paranoia. Although I see no evidence that either he or you possess the character to look in the mirror, let me observe for the benefit of the “onlookers” he often appeals to: EL never compared Creationists, IDists, or anyone else to Nazis. Kairosfocus has compared EL to Goebbels and made uncountable accusations that ID skeptics are Nazi-like and/or responsible for some kind of impending holocaust. Many other writers here have done the same; a cursory search will show many headlines blaming Darwin and evolutionary biologists for the Holocaust. EL, in contrast, merely refused to censor someone who made much, much tamer statements at her own blog. You, of course, have actively enabled and even made many more, and more egregious, comments than she ever has. Moreover, EL never called anyone an “enemy of humanity.” Kairosfocus has used exactly those words to refer to ID skeptics and, by very strong implication, EL. Morever, you complain about “invective like this on [EL's] website.” But you directly encourage and personally participate in such mudslinging. Do you have “zero culpability” for it? Or is it different when mud is slung at people who criticize your august person? I suspect your self-proclaimed objective morality has failed to yield an objective conclusion in this case. Kairosfocus will of course see this comment as a “turnaround tactic,” for pointing out that he and you are directly guilty of the things the two of you desperately try to pin on EL can only be an Alinskyite oily red herring ad hominem strawman tactic in his opinion. But I do think it’s worth attempting to set the record straight. Not, however, that I trust this post will stay up long enough for that. I believe it’s clear from your track record that you’ll simply wipe the record of inconvenient discussion, or edit it to change what’s said here. Hopefully naming your tendency to censor and hide from criticism will shame you out of it in this instance, so that no one will be fooled by these appallingly hypocritical pretensions at martyrdom.
Jerad
October 5, 2013
October
10
Oct
5
05
2013
01:05 PM
1
01
05
PM
PDT
And when I started a thread on the book at TSZ, I could only find one person there who had even read it and most claimed that they had no intention of reading it. Then we have a thread on the book over at TSZ titled: “When Prior Belief Trumps Scholarship” Talk about irony.
WELL DONE SGT MUNG!! you've picked your ground and made the enemy come to you as you were told!! And, so I've heard, you've even gone above and beyond the call and taken some steps into enemy territory, i.e. TSZ!!!! We hope you haven't been too traumatised by, what must be, a hideous experience. You will excuse KF and Barry and Denyse and Gil for not standing shoulder to shoulder with you in that endeavour but . . . well . . . you know . . someone has to stay back and sign all the forms and draft policy. But you did well. You didn't go beyond your orders and look for more information or intelligence than what you had been tasked to do. And also well done for doing such a good job at dodging the really difficult questions/bullets. It's tough out there on the front lines. But you're sense of humour (so I'm told) and your ability to avoid serious situations has served you well. Please accept our deepest gratitude. We can't actually give you anything nor are we ready to let you have any kind of administrative responsibilities here at UD . . . but who knows? Maybe in another year or two!!
If anything, she was banned for trying to deflect away from the original point Barry was making and then arguing by assertions in the guise of questions. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.
Heh, heh, heh. I bet she picked up some tactics from you old boy, eh?
A red-herring. No IDist that I know of claims that it will be found to be the case that all DNA is functional. That’s just absurd.
Excellent point!! Since any ID proponent of any intelligence at all would be very careful not to make any prediction specific enough to risk being found wanting at some future date!Jerad
October 5, 2013
October
10
Oct
5
05
2013
01:03 PM
1
01
03
PM
PDT
DANGER DR. BARRY!!!!!!!!!!!!! DANGER!!!!!!!!!!!! PRON ADDICTED FINGERING GAY NAZIS MIGHT HAVE HACKED YOUR WEBSITE!!!! (My website was recently hacked in a similar fashion.) https://uncommondescent.com/blogs/shop/viagra_professional.phpJWTruthInLove
October 5, 2013
October
10
Oct
5
05
2013
12:59 PM
12
12
59
PM
PDT
PS: And, RB are you willing to characterise objectors to design thought as a class -- rather than as specific individuals and circles -- as indulging that pattern of well poisoning behaviour? What does that say?kairosfocus
October 5, 2013
October
10
Oct
5
05
2013
12:52 PM
12
12
52
PM
PDT
RB: Did you take time to observe the difference between a very specific objection to a destructive pattern of behaviour and a broad-brush defamatory characterisation of millions through a grotesque conspiracy narrative, with a very specific and horrific history once Christians are involved as a class? Or, were you too busy gleefully trying the turnabout accusation game to notice the highly material difference? And I bet you and ever so many others of your ilk will refuse to acknowledge the difference. (Though I hope you will prove me wrong, just as I hope that one day some of you will wake up to what you are doing by spreading or enabling defamatory conspiracy narratives.) KFkairosfocus
October 5, 2013
October
10
Oct
5
05
2013
12:44 PM
12
12
44
PM
PDT
Pro Hac Vice:
Kairosfocus has used exactly those words to refer to ID skeptics and, by very strong implication, EL.
He's right:
They boil down to poisoning and polarising the atmosphere in which discussions and eventual negotiations have to be made, while poisoning the well by seeking to maliciously and unfairly discredit and twisting those under attack into scapegoated caricatures projected as hypocrites through gleefully cruel and sadistic mockery, never letting up on that tactic. (Resemblance to what is going on all around us is NOT coincidental.) Those who poison the well we may all eventually have to drink from thereby reveal themselves to be enemies of humanity. All the time of course, while such poisoning and polarisation are going on, someone is being groomed to take over, but in a context where increasingly people are living in a world of spin-driven calculatedly deceitful Plato’s cave shadow shows that distort reality. Sooner or later such a house divided against itself and endarkened, benumbed, and twisted in heart, mind and soul, will predictably suffer the fate of such communities long since taught by history: collapse leading to defeat and despotism under tyrants native or foreign or Quislings to such foreign ones.
The ironies are multilayered.Reciprocating Bill
October 5, 2013
October
10
Oct
5
05
2013
12:16 PM
12
12
16
PM
PDT
Mark Frank: "It is an admirable idea but I do you think they would want to participate given the chances they would be banned if they asked the wrong questions?" Ironic question coming from a person who has commented freely on this site since 2006.Barry Arrington
October 5, 2013
October
10
Oct
5
05
2013
12:08 PM
12
12
08
PM
PDT
KN @ 100: Do you seriously think I banned EL merely because she asked a tough question? If so, I agree; you are an idiot. BTW, you ask tough questions here almost daily. I relish the exchange with you. And if you can't figure out the difference between yourself and EL, I guess you are not as smart as I thought you were.Barry Arrington
October 5, 2013
October
10
Oct
5
05
2013
11:53 AM
11
11
53
AM
PDT
EL was not banned merely for asking questions. Those who would say that she was are either idiots or liars, probably the latter. The suggestion that EL was banned merely for asking questions is so obviously false as not to require rebuttal. Nevertheless I thank KF for his 65, 68 and 75 and Mung for his 94.
I'm definitely an idiot, then. So let me get this straight. Are you saying, Barry, that Lizzie was banned here because you agree with Kairosfocus that she bears responsibility for what davehooke wrote on a blog she hosts? I would have thought, in my irrepressible naivete, that the only person who bears responsibility for what davehooke wrote is davehooke himself.Kantian Naturalist
October 5, 2013
October
10
Oct
5
05
2013
11:40 AM
11
11
40
AM
PDT
Barry, there's no need to keep pretending that you banned EL for anything other than exposing the flaws in your reasoning. Your readers who welcome the return to the echo chamber don't need to hear it, as they already blame her for every evil. The rest of us don't believe you. Your inability to answer her simple questions, together with your extensive track record of using moderation powers to bully dissent out of sight, speak much louder than your weak protestations. Nor do I think that you are making any positive impression by enabling KF's paranoia. Although I see no evidence that either he or you possess the character to look in the mirror, let me observe for the benefit of the "onlookers" he often appeals to: EL never compared Creationists, IDists, or anyone else to Nazis. Kairosfocus has compared EL to Goebbels and made uncountable accusations that ID skeptics are Nazi-like and/or responsible for some kind of impending holocaust. Many other writers here have done the same; a cursory search will show many headlines blaming Darwin and evolutionary biologists for the Holocaust. EL, in contrast, merely refused to censor someone who made much, much tamer statements at her own blog. You, of course, have actively enabled and even made many more, and more egregious, comments than she ever has. Moreover, EL never called anyone an "enemy of humanity." Kairosfocus has used exactly those words to refer to ID skeptics and, by very strong implication, EL. Morever, you complain about "invective like this on [EL's] website." But you directly encourage and personally participate in such mudslinging. Do you have "zero culpability" for it? Or is it different when mud is slung at people who criticize your august person? I suspect your self-proclaimed objective morality has failed to yield an objective conclusion in this case. Kairosfocus will of course see this comment as a "turnaround tactic," for pointing out that he and you are directly guilty of the things the two of you desperately try to pin on EL can only be an Alinskyite oily red herring ad hominem strawman tactic in his opinion. But I do think it's worth attempting to set the record straight. Not, however, that I trust this post will stay up long enough for that. I believe it's clear from your track record that you'll simply wipe the record of inconvenient discussion, or edit it to change what's said here. Hopefully naming your tendency to censor and hide from criticism will shame you out of it in this instance, so that no one will be fooled by these appallingly hypocritical pretensions at martyrdom.Pro Hac Vice
October 5, 2013
October
10
Oct
5
05
2013
11:22 AM
11
11
22
AM
PDT
1 2 3 … 5