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Embryo and Einstein – Why They’re Equal

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The photo on the right is a picture of Albert Einstein, shortly after receiving the Nobel Prize in 1921. The photo on the left shows how Einstein looked when he was very young (about three days old). The aim of this essay is to demonstrate on purely philosophical (i.e. non-religious) grounds that a human embryo is a person, who matters just as much as you or I do. I shall also attempt to explain exactly why an embryo is just as valuable as you or I. From this it follows that the embryo from which the adult Einstein developed had exactly the same moral worth (or intrinsic value) as Einstein the man, and that an outside party – for instance, the doctor who took care of Einstein’s mother while she was pregnant – would have been morally bound to treat the embryo Einstein as a fully-fledged human person, having the same inherent right to life as the great scientist whom the embryo later developed into. I have written this essay specifically for people with no religious beliefs, so I will be making use of purely secular arguments, based on uncontroversial scientific concepts, which should be familiar to anyone who has spent time studying the emergence and development of biological forms in the natural world. In the interests of full disclosure, I will state up-front that I am a Catholic, and that I am also a member of the Intelligent Design movement. However, I would like to emphasize that I am not claiming to speak on behalf of any group in writing this essay. The arguments put forward here represent my own personal views.

I am writing this essay in response to some arguments recently put forward by the “New Atheists,” most of whom would totally reject the notion that Einstein as an embryo had the same moral value as the adult Einstein. For instance, evolutionary biologist Professor Jerry Coyne has recently argued that a 100-cell blastocyst cannot be as valuable as an adult human being because it lacks thoughts and feelings, and concludes: “A blastocyst is no more what we think of as a ‘person’ than an acorn is the same thing as an oak tree.” For biologist P. Z. Myers, it is the height of absurdity to regard embryos as being just as valuable as adults (see here and here). Philosopher Sam Harris is utterly incredulous that anyone can still believe an embryo is a unique human person, given the fact that early embryos are susceptible to both fission and fusion (see here). Harris argues that “if our concern is about suffering in this universe, it is rather obvious that we should be more concerned about killing flies than about killing three-day-old embryos” – an odd remark for him to make, as neither flies nor three-day-old embryos are sentient (see here). And the evolutionary biologist Professor Richard Dawkins, after contrasting his “secular consequentialist” approach to ethics with “religiously absolute moral philosophies,” adds: “One school of thought cares about whether embryos can suffer. The other cares about whether they are human” (The God Delusion, Boston & New York: Houghton Mifflin Co., 2006, p. 297). It is an ethical axiom for Dawkins that only sentient beings matter: early embryos fall outside the scope of legitimate moral concern, because they are incapable of suffering. And even if some embryos turn out to be capable of suffering, “there is every reason to suppose that all embryos, whether human or not, suffer far less than adult cows or sheep in a slaughterhouse” (Dawkins, 2006, p. 297).

However, I believe in giving credit where credit is due, so I should mention that Christopher Hitchens is a noble exception to the generalization that New Atheists tend to be ardently pro-choice: unlike the other “New Atheists,” Hitchens openly refers to the embryo/fetus as an “unborn child,” although he does not go so far as to advocate the repeal of Roe v. Wade. And while Dr. Richard Carrier is generally pro-choice, he is also on the record as saying that he would oppose elective third trimester abortion as being identical to infanticide (see the Carrier-Roth Debate here).

In this essay, I shall endeavor to show that a strong intellectual case can be made, on non-religious grounds (i.e. without assuming the existence of God or an immaterial soul), for the pro-life view that a human person begins at the exact moment when the sperm cell penetrates the ovum (or oocyte, to use a more accurate medical term), and that a human embryo – even if it is severely deformed – has the same right to life as a fully rational human adult. In other words, I shall argue that if you grant that a rational human adult has a right to life, then you must also grant that an embryo or fetus has a right to life, too. What distinguishes this essay from other essays written in defense of unborn human life is that I shall endeavor to explain precisely why a human embryo is every bit as valuable as you or I. Moreover, my explanation makes no appeal to the merely potential qualities of the embryo; instead, I only invoke actual properties. Thus my argument is invulnerable to the philosopher Peter Singer’s criticism that a potential X does not necessarily have the rights of an actual X – for instance, a prince (who is a potential king) does not possess the same rights and privileges as an actual king. And unlike the philosopher Don Marquis, who argues that an embryo/fetus matters just as much as we do because it has a future like ours, my account of why a human embryo matters is based principally on its present characteristics. Finally, my explanation makes no appeal to the existence of an immaterial soul, although it is perfectly compatible with belief in one.

Later, I shall address the moral issue of abortion. In particular, I shall contend that Judith Jarvis Thomson’s argument for the morality of abortion is flawed, and I will show that the available evidence indicates that abortion harms women’s mental health, even in cases such as rape and incest. However, my principal aim in this online essay is to demonstrate that a human embryo is a person who matters just as much as an adult.

My argument in a nutshell

In brief, the essence of my argument is that a human embryo is a person, because it is a complete organism, embodying a developmental program by which it directs and controls its own development into a rational human adult, and in addition, it has already started assembling itself into a rational human adult. A human adult is not merely something the embryo/fetus is capable of becoming, in a passive sense; rather, it is the mature form of the organism that the embryo/fetus is currently assembling itself into, by executing the instructions contained in its developmental program, which has already started running. (In this respect, the embryo/fetus differs vitally from a potential king, who is legally incapable of doing anything to make himself king, and who has none of the rights that properly belong to a king.) I shall argue that it is reasonable to regard any biological organism which is currently assembling itself into a rational human adult through a process which is under its control, as being just as valuable as the adult it will become, and as therefore having the same right to life as an adult. I shall also contend that nothing is acquired by an embryo, fetus, newborn baby or child in the course of its development which would add to its inherent moral value in any way; hence a one-cell embryo must be just as valuable as you or I. Finally, I shall argue that a severely defective embryo, which has no hope of developing into a rational human adult, has the same right to life as a normal embryo, because the correction of its defects does not require the addition of any new instructions to its developmental program; all it requires is the repair of program flaws, and that this correction would in no way alter its identity as a human individual, or add to its inherent value. Given that a normal embryo has the same right to life as a rational human adult, it follows that a severely defective embryo (which is just as valuable as a normal one) has the same right to life as well.

Dedication and Acknowledgements

I would like to express my thanks at the outset to the Intelligent Design movement for alerting me to the ethical significance of the developmental programs which are found in living organisms. I’ll say more about these programs below.

Read the rest of the essay here.

Comments
Hi Bruce David, Apparently you haven't had time to fully digest Parts C and D of my lengthy essay yet. Fair enough; you're a busy man and I won't rush you. I was interested to read that you are a Berkeleyan. I would just like to say in passing that I believe an embryo is as fully rational as you or I. It has a mind too. All that stops an embryo from thinking is the immaturity of its body (which it requires in order to have knowledge of its surroundings), coupled with its lack of experiences to date (since its nervous system is as yet undeveloped). The notion of a "mind in waiting" might sound odd, but I submit that it is not unreasonable. In speaking of the mind, incidentally, I don't mean a separate thing from the body. On my view, there is one thing - a human being - with many different powers, most of which require a body, but two of which (intellect and will) do not. I cannot comment on "Conversations with God", as I haven't read it. Regarding legislation against infanticide: politically speaking, it may well be correct to say that prohibition is unlikely to succeed until a majority of the population accepts that newborn infants are people too. Imposing such a view on the population may well be "tyranny", and it may well fail anyway. But that does not necessarily make it morally wrong; it merely makes it imprudent. I would certainly say, however, that a government which attempted to roll back our civilization's long-standing prohibitions against infanticide should be fought tooth and nail, and in that context, I wouldn't see force as inherently immoral. Majority rule has no inherent normative force whatsoever, if the majority declares that individuals it formerly recognized as people are in fact not people at all. The situation with the unborn is different; the law never consistently regarded them as persons in the first place, so violence in the pro-life cause would be morally wrong. In a democratic society, one must wait patiently until the people come to recognize the unborn as genuine people, but once they do so, this action can never be validly reversed. In any case, as you rightly point out, my essay was written as an attempt at rationally persuading people that it makes good sense to regard an embryo as a human person who matters just as much as you or I do. I do not expect to see victory in my life-time; pro-lifers are in it for the long haul. Many of us recognize that we may have to wait until our present society collapses (as it probably will) before we can achieve real progress. In the meantime, we just have to keep making a rational case for the personhood of the embryo.vjtorley
November 12, 2011
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vjtorley: "Even more preposterously, you are prepared to seriously entertain the notion that a person’s identity could be transferred to a CD which could be inserted into a robot." ===== Never underestimate the power of the Sci-Fi Channel for not only indoctrinating under the guise of entertainment, but subliminally so, so as not to be noticed and then having to later deny it. Everlasting life/Atificial Life to an Atheist/Agnostic is after all having their consciousness downloaded into a SuperComputer. Hmmmmmmm, maybe that's what CERN project is really about ??? It's yet another aspect of their faith and hope in Scientifism as a means to bring about all that is wonderful for mankind and what this court trial of independent self-determination is all about. Thus far human independence has been an abysmal failure. As Jude says: 'To bad for them'.Eocene
November 12, 2011
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Hi Eigenstate, Thank you for your post. Let me be clear: I do not credit a three-day-old embryo with any foresight, intent, will or consciousness. Having a goal requires none of these things. I should say that I am using the word "goal" in a third-person sense; I am not using it to mean "intention" or "aim". You can replace "goal" with the Greek telos, if that makes you feel more comfortable. Any biologist would say that the heart is for pumping blood. That is its telos - which is not the same as saying that in times past, organisms with hearts were more evolutionarily successful than those lacking them. The latter statement may well be true, but it isn't the same in meaning. A doctor who knew nothing about evolution (e.g. William Harvey) could still figure out what the heart is for, without looking at its history, and if (per impossibile) a creature with a heart were to suddenly coalesce from a swamp, its heart would still be for pumping blood too - even though it had no evolutionary past. The point I want to make here is that no matter how hard you try, you cannot totally eliminate teleological language from biology - and nor should you. Most biologists have no wish to, anyway; only a few radical philosophers seem to want to pursue such a path. A developing embryo has a telos: as a very young human being, it is on the first step of a long journey towards becoming an adult human being. I should add that in Part A, section (i) of my essay, where I list the five requirements for qualifying as a human person, I do not use the word "goal" at all. I use the term "developmental goal" just once, in Part A, section (iv), Argument #2. Here I simply mean the terminus, or end-point, of the developmental program: a rational human adult. Lastly, I quote Professor Maureen Condic, who remarks in passing that "the 'goal' of both sperm and egg is to find each other and to fuse". Notice that even here she uses inverted commas. So I do not think that your accusation of anthropomorphism is a fair one. Regarding the prince in training: I'm afraid your example fails as a parallel. Ordinarily, princes are schooled in the art of being a good king; but this is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for them to become king. Many princes have ascended to the throne without any preparation, and many others who were well-prepared to reign as king have never been given the opportunity to do so. All the training in the world cannot make a prince a king. For that to happen, (i) his father must die or voluntarily cede the throne; (ii) he must be the first in line to succeed his deceased or retired father; and (iii) he must be publicly crowned king. These three facts, and these alone, can make a prince a king. So the potential of a prince to become a king is vastly different from the potential of an embryo to become an adult. The embryo is doing something (executing a developmental program) which, if allowed to continue, will turn it into an adult, in about 18 years' time. But the training that the prince is undergoing will not make him a king, no longer how long it continues. All it will make him is ready to assume the responsibility, when and if that happens - a fact which is beyond his control, unless he engages in parricide.vjtorley
November 12, 2011
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Hi Eocene, Thank you for your post. I respect your demand for consistency on the part of the pro-life movement. You'll be happy to know that many in the pro-life movement would echo your sentiments. Regarding killing in war: at best, it is only permissible for the sake of defending innocent human life, and even then there are many conditions attached. See here and here for a short modern account of just war theory. At any rate, what all pro-lifers agree on is that the intentional destruction of innocent human life is always wrong. Having said that, it needs to be acknowledged that religious institutions have behaved hypocritically in lending their support to wars. In the early twentieth century, the common theological view was that if you were a private citizen living in a State which found itself at war, and you were somewhat doubtful about the ethics of such a war, you should give your State the benefit of the doubt. (Talk about "My country right or wrong"!) Only if the State violated the rules of war in a clearcut way could you refuse to serve. Thank God that kind of thinking has gone the way of the dodo. It might interest you to know that the Canadian moral theologian Germain Grisez (who is a widely respected author) thinks that you can't morally intend the death of even a wicked person, let alone an innocent one. You can intend to inactivate them or render them no longer dangerous, but you cannot have your heart set on killing them, either as an end or a means to an end. Food for thought.vjtorley
November 12, 2011
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Hi Goodusername, Thank you for your post. I can see I won't persuade you easily. Re Martians: you might like to re-read what I wrote in the Introduction of my article:
(3) This article is about human persons, not other animals and not computers. While I acknowledge the theoretical possibility that there may be persons belonging to non-human species of animals, who would also have a right to life, I shall refrain from discussing the issue of non-human persons. This article deals exclusively with human persons. I would also like to add that regardless of whether sentient animals are persons or not, cruelty to animals is wrong. Additionally, this article does not touch on the possibility of artificial intelligence: it says nothing about whether computers could ever qualify as persons with rights.
My remarks on Martian rights need to be interpreted in that context. It's not that I see any difference in content between Martian rights and human rights; it's just that Martians and humans have a different nature, that's all. The locution "human rights" is firmly entrenched in our language. If we accept this locution, then we can speak of Martian rights as well. In my essay, I am only concerned with the former. Re breast-feeding: its moral permissibility is established by virtue of the fact that it is a natural activity which is inherently good for the child, who benefits from it. From a biological perspective, it's the proper thing to do, when one has a baby. As regards breastfeeding being used as a form of birth control: some mothers may use it (partly) for that reason, but its efficacy is principally due to the fact that it inhibits ovulation, by inhibiting the secretion of GnRH. The fact that it may on rare occasions inhibit implantation as well is not intended by the mother, and as I said, if a zygote is present in her body, she is presumably unaware of this fact. So portraying a breastfeeding mother as a murderess is simply ridiculous. Mere foresight of a possible hazard to a possibly existent person, in the absence of any malicious intent, doth not a murder make. Regarding the head transplant case: I am not alone in my intuitions. You need to read around a little more. Here's a good place to start: "A dialogue on personal identity and immortality", by the philosopher John Perry (Hackett Publishing Company, 1978). Note: the kind of soul Perry takes aim at is a Cartesian soul, not an Aristotelian hylomorphic one (which is the kind I believe in, as I made clear in Part D, section (vii)). I do not believe that I am just a head on stilts. I am an embodied being. My arms, my legs, my chest - they're all part of me, and not just part of my brain's body - as if "I" were up here in my head, and my body were nothing more than a mechanism attached to my head. No; my body is an organism. My brain is grounded in my nervous system, which travels all around my body. The notion that "I" go wherever my head goes flies in the face of these biological insights. I have to say that you sound just like a Cartesian dualist - except that whereas the Cartesian is a mind-body dualist, you're a head-body dualist, with the head being the real "me". All I can say is: what a conceited organ the head is! Even more preposterously, you are prepared to seriously entertain the notion that a person's identity could be transferred to a CD which could be inserted into a robot. If the robot passed the Turing test for being that person, you'd be prepared to consider it as a continuation of that person. I have trouble believing that you seriously believe this. Consider: what if multiple copies are made of the CD, and inserted into multiple robots? Which of them is the person you once knew? Or what if the person retains his memories while multiple copies are made of the contents of his brain, onto various CDs, and immediately after they are downloaded and inserted into various robots, his sister cannot distinguish between the "real" person and his robot replicas in a Turing test? What then?vjtorley
November 12, 2011
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eigenstate,
I’m thinking you would agree with this, based on what you’ve said: if the “awareness of purpose” is just imagined, the “another dimension” is imaginary as well, no?
Yes, I even said so. Whether one thing or another is true has certain hypothetical consequences. (If there is no God, then X.) But I don't reason that those consequences determine the truth. I've seen such reasoning and I don't agree with it.ScottAndrews2
November 12, 2011
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vjtorley: "What I’ve attempted to argue (especially in Part A, section (iv)) is that any human organism possessing this actual property has the same inherent value as you or I have." ==== Yep, couldn't agree more and the scriptures also support such a view. Unfortunately, the abandondment of morality has created a number of situations which propagate such programs as abortion. Lack of respect for the marriage arrangement, brutal amoral science programs like Eugenics, etc. ---- vjtorley: "So in answer to your argument: my argument does not rest squarely on potential futures; it rests on current, . " ==== But for the moment now let's go ahead and take that futures point up. Again, let me restate, I'm in total agreement with life as starting with that embryo, for even the very same reasons as King David acknowledged in his mention at Psalm 139:16 of his own beginning as an embryo being written in writing so to speak, as of his own personal specific genetic code which he recognized only the Creator could see the full potential. However, let's again go back to the subject of an embryo's future. I wish the anti-abortion crowd would be more consistant when it comes to respect for life. I live in a mostly Secularist atheistic country as is most central and especially northern Europe. Most here have left all Churches because of the horrific wars especially experienced here. Primarily after the horrors of WWII, did people begin losing faith in a Creator. Correct me if I'm wrong, but most of anti-abortion movement have a blief system that forbids killing an unborn child(no problem there), but they also believe that once that child is saved and born into the world, it has an obligation when grown up to support whatever country it belongs to and go out and fight and kill by taking other life. This is why I refuse to call the movement "Pro-Life". Because it is not consistant with those values it claims to hold onto so dearly. Can you understand the hypocracy seen by many ??? Maybe it's a bit tough living in a country disconnected from areas which had actual war carried out on their own soil, but that's the reality here in Europe and anywhere else where people rejected religion in favour of communism.Eocene
November 12, 2011
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“I’m not saying it wouldn’t. They just wouldn’t be human rights, that’s all. They’d be Martian rights.”
That implies there’s a difference between the two (otherwise it would be a very odd thing to even bring up) - and what difference would you be alluding to if not the “right to life”? (Perhaps the right “to bear arms”? I’m not sure if I’m comfortable with the idea of Martians running around with their lasers!)
Re the breast-feeding case: the breast-feeding mother may be aware, in the abstract, that breast-feeding hinders the implantation of zygotes, but she is not aware of whether she has a zygote inside her body; nor does she intend its death. Since neither foresight nor intent are present, we cannot call her a murderer, by any stretch of the imagination.
But, as I said, it IS very often done with foresight and intent – It’s actually a very common form of birth control (i.e. done, at least in part, for the purpose of birth control). It’s hardly any defense that a zygote MIGHT not be present! The knowledge that there is a strong likelihood that a zygote may be present is PLENTY reason to charge someone with murder. And since we know of this effect (many would say “benefit”) of breast-feeding, and being that there are alternatives, how can it remain legal? Why aren’t you advocating a ban on breast-feeding? (Or, alternatively, advocating a ban on intercourse while breast feeding?)
First of all: would you value someone (e.g. a friend or family member) who could feel and was sentient, but could not think? I’m guessing that you would say no. In that case, you’re not a sentientist but a personist.
Actually, I’m very doubtful that the qualities I’ve listed (emotions, intelligence, sentience, etc) can be separated like that. Sentience without an ability to think? I doubt that’s possible. I suppose if pushed I would say that without an ability to “think” that there is no longer any personhood, but any response to stimuli would be like an amoeba responding to being probed. “Sentience” is linked to the ability to have subjective experiences – but what would such a thing even mean without an ability to have thoughts? Also emotions - without any thoughts, what would there be to get emotional about? It might be an interesting exercise to discuss what the “minimal” list of qualities are necessary to be a “human” or a “person” and also to what degree the various qualities need to be present, etc, but, as already said, I don’t think they are really independent qualities, and also, in this particular discussion, it isn’t actually relevant. If we were somewhat close on when “personhood” occurs, then discussing the relative importance of each quality or to what degree they need to develop, etc, would be relevant. However, you believe that a zygote is a person despite not having any of those qualities to any degree. I’m especially confused as to what you see as relevant considering this next statement:
Or imagine that the family member opts for a head transplant. Which would you value as the person you loved: the head or the body? And what if the body their head is transplanted onto is robotic? Now imagine that this person wants to load their all their personal memories onto a CD, before they die. Assuming it were doable, would you ascribe any ethical value to the CD? If you’re self-consistent in your ethics, you’d ascribe value to the head and the to the CD. But I wouldn’t. I’d identify more with the loved one’s body, and I’d attach zero importance to the CD. In my book, anything that doesn’t have a body, isn’t even an organism, and therefore isn’t an individual.
Wait… so if a loved one of yours had their head and body separated, and both kept alive somehow… the part that you’d identify with as your loved one is… the body? You wouldn’t identify with the head – that part that knows you and is talking to you (and is wondering why you keep paying attention to the body)? I have to say, that is so shocking that I don’t even know if I believe you. Seriously, if someone had bet me as to whether there was even ONE person on earth that felt that way, I would have bet against it. I have to know: Is there ANYONE out there that agrees with vjtorley on this? This brings up all kinds of interesting questions. As the head is talking to you in the above scenario, do you refuse to talk back? Or perhaps (let’s say his name was Bob) would you say “stop pretending to be Bob, you aren’t Bob!”? Let’s say “Bob’s” body is given the head of stranger in a transplant – would you really treat that “body-head” combo as “Bob”? If so, don’t be surprised if that “body-head” combo is freaked out and wondering why you keep insisting that he’s “Bob”. Let’s say you had a head transplant – you switched heads with someone else. Which “body-head” combo do you think will actually wake up after the surgery thinking that it’s “you”? As “you” wake up with another person’s body, do you reach into the pocket to get the driver’s license to find out who “you” now are? Or let’s say you were in a bad accident, and woke up in the hospital. Your loved ones visit you and are all happy that you are doing well. A few hours go by and it occurs to you to look under the blanket, and you find that you have a robot body. Do you decide at that point that you didn’t survive and are dead? Or do “you” decide that you are not, uh, you? To answer your question about whether I’d value the CD… I already listed what I value with humans – sentence, emotions, feelings, intelligence etc – which of those are present in a CD? If, OTOH, the CD had more than just memories, but somehow captured the complete personality of the person – the “mind”, as often occurs in sci fi – and when the CD were put into a robot it would then speak and act just as the family member would (passing a “Turing test”, so to speak), and seemingly was sentient and conscious, etc, then I might very well consider the robot as the continuation of the person.
Or again: consider the case of a sick, disturbed individual walking into a hospital and going into a ward where people in a permanent vegetative state are kept. Now suppose that the disturbed individual takes all the bodies and feeds them to some hungry wild animals. On your own account of personhood, you shouldn’t care, right? But you DO care, don’t you?”
If, for sake of argument, we can be certain that they are in a permanent vegetative state, will never recover, and are not conscious or feeling, etc, then yes, I would find the account disturbing, but in much the same sense as if he fed bodies from the morgue to wild animals. I would not view it as nearly as disturbing as if he fed conscious sick patients to wild animals.goodusername
November 11, 2011
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The clarity of your point is not your problem Eigenstate. You told me how a New Yorker would pick out an imposter by hearing them mispronounce the name of a well known landmark, but you didn't tell me how you know someone is lying by recreating for yourself their thoughts and motives from years before by interacting with them on the internet today.Upright BiPed
November 11, 2011
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@UprightBiped, I believe you are having difficulty with my pointing back to the idea that your particular grievances against Dawkins, as enlightening as they are to read, run orthogonally to the complaint I'm raising. I can allow, arguendo, that you are completely correct, and that Dawkins is a shameless coward, if that makes you happy, and it doesn't make Gil's posing any less an exercise in "Voguing for Christians". Say what you will about Dawkins, it won't reconcile the bombast from Gil. I can't think how to make that any more clear than that. As for the special knowledge of Gil, see my comment to Gil in 8.2.1.1.8. No history knowledge needed. If you know New York City and someone claims they were a "Bloomberg-style New Yorker" who "lived in SoHo, just a couple blocks south of Houston street", and they pronounce "Houston" the way someone would pronounce "Houston, Texas", rather than "Howes-ton", you know that guy is a poser. You don't have to know his history, or getting confused about where you begin and he ends (???), you just observe that this cat has his claims badly and irreconcilably wrong. That's all.eigenstate
November 11, 2011
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@ScottAndrews2,
I really wasn’t trying to make any such point. If there were any objective way to measure happiness and fulfillment, I doubt very much that the average churchgoer would score higher than the average atheist. I’m religious, but I guarantee you as I’m as critical as an unbeliever. If you find fault with it, I’m probably right there with you.
Well, I'm sorry to have misunderstood you, then. I can only think, then, that we are struggling with the overloading of "meaning" as a term here. I did pay particular attention to this from you:
That is obviously not a logical argument for design or against atheism. If there is no purpose then that “awareness” is false. But we’re not talking about which is true or false, but rather which offers more fulfillment. The above example is but one reason why belief in design offers a degree of meaning and fulfillment that atheism cannot.
I understand that point and agree. I just can't reconcile that with this, just prior, from you:
But awareness of a purpose adds another dimension to it.
I'm thinking you would agree with this, based on what you've said: if the "awareness of purpose" is just imagined, the "another dimension" is imaginary as well, no? Perhaps not, though. If you are thinking in "perception is reality" kind of way -- the sense of fulfillment IS fulfillment in the final sense -- then I would have to just nod and say "yes, true by definition". If a "sense of fulfillment" is the final goal in what you are saying, then sure, one can create all sorts of value and meaning just imagining value, and synthesizing ideas of one's "specialness in the universe", etc. I was thinking about some sense of meaning or fulfillment outside of just the confines of one's brain, though. I think that's where I got confused, and started talking past what you intended. Sorry about that.eigenstate
November 11, 2011
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@Gil,
Is your Ph.D. in sophistry? If not, you should apply for an honorary degree. I find your argumentation to be completely incomprehensible, and your insults and suppositions are based on pure fantasy. Everything I have said about my background is absolutely true and accurate. For most of my life I was exactly like Dawkins. I made all the arguments he makes. The Blind Watchmaker was my newly-discovered bible of materialism, which I read two years before the birth of my first daughter. I confess to not being diplomatic like VJ. It’s undoubtedly a vestigial remain of my inherently fallen nature.
There's not any fodder here to power any sophistry, even if that was my intent. It's not an argument, even, just an observation. Have you ever heard a young earth creationist brag about being a former "Dawkins-style evolutionist", one who "really believed we descended from monkeys!"? If so, you surely wince at the conspicuous self-discrediting of those two statements. You don't need to know the person's history at all, you just need to understand that "really believed we descended from monkeys" puts paid to the whopper that one was a "Dawkins-style evolutionist". No way that could be true, by the YEC's own testimony against himself. Here, you've outed yourself on your whopper in precisely the same fashion:
I began to sink into a period of angst about my atheistic-materialistic worldview, what it ultimately meant, and what it would mean if I passed on this worldview to my beloved child.
That's telling us you were manifestly not a Dawkins-style atheist, any more than than man-from-monkeys evolutionist is a Dawkins-style evolution. Such angst is the utter failure to grasp and/or apply the epistemology and rational heuristics that Dawkins espouses. It is to be as "anti-Dawkins" as one could be as an unbeliever. People passingly familiar with Dawkins identify this easily, just as easily as you understand the error of a YEC you thinks Dawkins teaches man descended from monkeys. It's just a clear and non-controversial observation, that's all. Again, what I told someone else, above: if you suppose your life is meaningless, and your fall into the kind of melancholy angst you describe above (and have mentioned before), you're an anti-Dawkins. You're are manifestly rejecting his core views and principles, his basic perspective on the world. It's an easy test: am I inclined to worry and stress over the "meaningless of materialist life"? If so, you may be on the right track, or not, but clearly, you're not sharing anything with Dawkins-style atheism if that's where you find yourself.eigenstate
November 11, 2011
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Eigenstate, Dawkins is a coward. His cowadice stems from ignoring the evidence that contradicts him. For a man who fronts himself as an empiricist, it is the flaw that cannot be reconciled. But apparently you think highly of his methods. As for your thing with Gil - I don't know and don't care. Judging by your comments, it looks like to me that you don't know where you end and Gil begins. You seem to have a rather personal certainty that you know him, and can generate within yourself his history of thoughts and motives. Doing so seems to be quite important to you.Upright BiPed
November 11, 2011
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Dr. Torley, I will address your response by paragraph (except the 7th, since I have not had time to read the references in that paragraph.) 1st paragraph: I am not a Cartesian dualist at all. The philosopher whose view of the Universe most closely conforms to mine is Bishop Berkeley. The material world, in my view, is a kind of virtual reality in which God assumes the role of the computer that controls and coordinates the reality that we all experience. 2nd paragraph: My belief is that Who We Really Are is a soul, period. When we take residence in a human body, we are also a human being, but that ends when we die (and begins again in the next incarnation). So we are souls permanently and human beings temporarily. I believe that there are other sentient races in the Universe, and that souls such as ourselves can take up residence in such a body, in which case the soul would be incarnated but not as a human being. 3rd and 4th paragraphs: My belief regarding the time at which the soul takes up residence in the body is the result of my accepting as true what has been reported in books such as "Journey of Souls" and "Conversations with God", in which it is stated that souls cannot incarnate until there is a developed brain with which to merge. You may disagree, but that is my belief. Also, based on those books, I believe that the incoming soul invariably does merge with the body at that time, and is fully merged by the time birth occurs. 5th paragraph: To me, souls and bodies are separate phenomena. A human body is just that, a body. A soul is a soul. Bodies don't have souls; souls inhabit bodies, when they choose to. It is also part of my belief system that it is known ahead of time which bodies will be stillborn, miscarried, die with the death of the mother, or aborted, and souls simply do not choose to incarnate into such bodies (why would they?). 6th paragraph: Who We Really Are is what to me is valuable, and Who We Really Are is immortal, made in His image and likeness, and cannot be damaged. Bodies come and go. All bodies deteriorate and die eventually. They are useful (extremely useful) for the purposes for which earthly existence was created, and that is their value. 8th and 9th paragraphs: In such a society as you describe, making infanticide illegal WOULD be to impose a definition of a human being on a society which does not share it, and doing so would not work, any more than making abortion illegal ever worked in our own society. You simply cannot legislate morality successfully. The validity of the law must be accepted by the large majority of the population, or you invariably end up with a situation in which the law is regularly broken and vast resources are used trying to enforce it that could be put to other purposes. The only action that makes sense is to attempt to persuade people of the validity of your own point of view, which I realize is exactly what you were doing in this post. But until such time as you are successful in such an endeavor, attempting to impose your views on a population that does not share them by force of law is tyranny and doomed to failure.Bruce David
November 11, 2011
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eigenstate, I really wasn't trying to make any such point. If there were any objective way to measure happiness and fulfillment, I doubt very much that the average churchgoer would score higher than the average atheist. I'm religious, but I guarantee you as I'm as critical as an unbeliever. If you find fault with it, I'm probably right there with you.ScottAndrews2
November 11, 2011
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eigenstate, Is your Ph.D. in sophistry? If not, you should apply for an honorary degree. I find your argumentation to be completely incomprehensible, and your insults and suppositions are based on pure fantasy. Everything I have said about my background is absolutely true and accurate. For most of my life I was exactly like Dawkins. I made all the arguments he makes. The Blind Watchmaker was my newly-discovered bible of materialism, which I read two years before the birth of my first daughter. I confess to not being diplomatic like VJ. It's undoubtedly a vestigial remain of my inherently fallen nature.GilDodgen
November 11, 2011
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Upright Biped, I disagree, of course, but that isn't the point at issue. You may think Dawkins is out to lunch, has bogus premises for his conclusions, etc. Doesn't change the problem of the unmistakable gap between Dawkins' ideas and Gil's faux "Dawkins-style" atheism. To be fair, I understand Gil to be using Dawkins as a bogeyman here, a kind of "dog whistle" phrase which just signals to the faithful that Gil wasn't just a rebel unbeliever, he was a righteously bad dude, so much more to the glory of God for the miracle of his salvation, etc. It's pandering to the peanut gallery, here. I get that. But it's worth pointing out that it's a particular conspicuous and tone deaf form of pandering. If you're going to pander, Gil, do it with some style and subtlety, eh? I for one would appreciate that.eigenstate
November 11, 2011
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@ScottAndrews2,
But awareness of a purpose adds another dimension to it. It’s one thing to wonder at flower or a bizarre treehopper. It’s another to consider that someone imagined how it would amaze you and placed it there for you to see. Humans typically desire interaction. Now, in a sense, all of these things become interactions, like receiving gifts. (I don’t mean to sound all Hall-Markian.)
Yes, but that dimension is... how to put it? Conceited. I don't doubt that there is psychological gratification there in that understanding, a kind of depth of purpose and telic narrative that is appealing. As a long time Christian, I know well that this is something powerful as a conceit. But once you look critically and see that as a conceit, as something constructed not because it obtains objectively, but obtains in our minds precisely because it is gratifying, it loses all the gratification. Unless we are gratuitously narcissistic, understanding that we are fooling ourselves takes all the fun out of it, all the meaning out the previously perceived meaning. If that's not clear as a dynamic, consider someone else's "deeper meaning than yours", and maybe it will help demonstrate this. I have a Mormon friend who is keen to explain through his henotheistic theology the profound meaning of our lives on earth, not just our eternal fate hanging in the balance (meaning similar to what most Christian would ascribe), but whole new worlds and universes hang in the balance. The celestial winners in the Mormon eschaton have their own universe to become of the God of. Cool huh? Well, it doesn't work on me, but it certainly does for others. All of this, created by the God of this universe, God the Father Yahweh, so that we each, if we are pious and faithful and courageous in our righteousness under the ordinances of the CoJCoLdS may one day inherit a universe we might rule ourselves. We may become gods! Sorry, your puny Christianity can't compete with that kind of extra dimension, that deeper meaning. Your Christian heaven is just flat, warm soda in the TV room compared to that. Whole worlds created just for you, and for your to inherit and rule! Wow. But that makes you say "meh!", I'd guess. As it should. And that is the salient point. The Mormon's "deeper meaning" is just totally uncompelling, meaningless, because it doesn't strike you as veridical, and as a theological conceit, rather than an existential probability. And in that, you've got what you need to see that your own "deeper meaning" or "extra dimension" is just credulous fluff, a conceit by the same measure. It's not meaningful if it's just self-deception. Or, more precisely, it's not meaningful if it's a bit of self-deception you are AWARE of. The "fulfillment" you speak of isn't fulfillment when it is exposed as simple conceit under the light of critical analysis.eigenstate
November 11, 2011
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Eigenstate, did you think through your response before you pushed play? You reduced the issue down to no more than a man changing his shirt, and only under that dilapidated form does your comment come even close to having merit. And whatever level of confidence you have that Dawkins reached his zenith by a dispassionate/scientific review of evidence can only stand up if that review is allowed to include ignoring evidence to the contrary.Upright BiPed
November 11, 2011
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A soul is a living creature, not something imparted to one. At least that was the view from both Judaism and Christianity until they began giving precedence to Greek philosophy with its roots in pagan mythology. The OP was geared toward a non-religious argument, but now souls have been brought into the discussion.ScottAndrews2
November 11, 2011
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eigenstate,
Dawkins’ atheism is expansive, perhaps even awe-struck to a fault in terms of its capacity for wonder, meaning and fulfillment.
These are properties of a person, not of atheism or theism. The life around us is wondrous regardless of how we think it came about. But awareness of a purpose adds another dimension to it. It's one thing to wonder at flower or a bizarre treehopper. It's another to consider that someone imagined how it would amaze you and placed it there for you to see. Humans typically desire interaction. Now, in a sense, all of these things become interactions, like receiving gifts. (I don't mean to sound all Hall-Markian.) That is obviously not a logical argument for design or against atheism. If there is no purpose then that "awareness" is false. But we're not talking about which is true or false, but rather which offers more fulfillment. The above example is but one reason why belief in design offers a degree of meaning and fulfillment that atheism cannot.ScottAndrews2
November 11, 2011
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Dr. Torley, First, as I understand this post, it's meant to appeal to secular types. As such, you're excusing yourself when (or if) you invoke telic language like "reached the (actual) goal". In secular terms, "goal" is not problematic in the sense of the "selfish gene"; biology optimizes the resources in a given milieu, and genes only have a "goal" of propagating in an analogical sense: genes don't "aspire" or "direct" anything in a telic way towards their own reproduction, but rather genes are around because they are the ones that have happened upon adapations that have been successful in persisting in the developing environments they exist in. That means that in a secular sense, your "goal" terminology is a problem. It's pedagogically useful for humans, who are predisposed toward telic thinking, to conceive of non-telic process in telic terms, but, as this blog regularly chronicles, many of us are given to forgetting that we're anthropomorphising biological process. The map is regularly mistaken for the territory. That's important here because you are, it appears, looking to disguise the "potential future", which is very much the problem Singer is pointing out to you, by euphemising it as "the goal". It may be, analogically, that the "cosmic goal" for the Prince is to become King one day. But this does not endow the Prince with the rights of a king, even if that was "the goal". Saying "that's the goal" doesn't help you here, even a little bit, on secular terms. I understand the genesis of the argument you are making from theistic grounds; I was a devout Christian for 30+ years, and as a human I'm well aware of my predisposition to getting confused about the world around me because I have a knee-jerk reflex toward construing everything in telic terms. But your argument, proffered to the secular, won't get any traction on secular terms. It will only have currency if you assume your premise that there is some transcendent goal in view there, and one peculiar to humans. Such goal-oriented thinking can only hold on superstitious ground. In Singer's example, the Prince is precisely what you claim he is not; a "king under development". He is learning, watching, being trained in the social graces, the military arts or what not, hopefully in such a way that when such powers are invested in him, and he BECOMES a king, the results will be good, or at least bad, for all the subjects who must live under the tyranny of rule-by-king. Your last sentence belies the theist/telic error in your putatively secular-compatible argument: a three day old embryo does not "make itself" anything. It's just biology. There is no governance, no intent, no consciousness, no will there at all, none whatsoever. To suppose there is is to engage in gratuitous anthropomorphizing of a clump of cells. That's your prerogative for your superstitions, but that is directly contrary to any scientific or objective view of what is actual going with that three day old zygote.eigenstate
November 11, 2011
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Dr. Torley, I don't suppose one needs grow up in a religious home to be a prodigal, or to "know one's Father". If you've heard William Lane Craig give his testimony, that's a picture that fits here, and fits Gil, from what I piece together apart from the tone-deaf embellishments he clearly adds to up his "street cred" with other Christians; Craig was not raised in a religiously faithful home, church was a sometimes thing, an afterthought. But even at his most "unbelieving", he always thought God existed. He just didn't have that personal relationship with Jesus that "Sandy", his high school classmate invited him to, until sometime after that fateful invitation from her. Craig was full of angst because even there was a god, it wasn't personal, and there was no cosmic meaning for him, personally, etc. I have no trouble with accepting that as Craig's going from "unsaved" to "save", nor do I have any trouble with the idea that Gil was a "faith rebel" in his own right. But this doesn't interfere with the "arc of prodigalism" at all. It predicates it. Here's a very simple rule I think you will find effective and trustworthy on this. If you suppose that your particular kind of atheism or unbelief is "soul-suffocating", or "despairing", or "meaningless" then you can be quite confident your paradigm is at loggerheads with Dawkins-style atheism. Dawkins' atheism is expansive, perhaps even awe-struck to a fault in terms of its capacity for wonder, meaning and fulfillment. And it goes beyond just appreciation of the secularly numimous experience; there is moral deontology at work in Dawkins' framework that propels a kind of evangelistic zeal (which many here are surely aware of as it rubs their fur the wrong way constantly). Which is just to say that someone who says "I was a Dawkins-style atheist" and "I found it soul-suffocating" has outed themselves as either quite ignorant about Dawkins' views, or dishonest, or perhaps just content with self-contradiction. I don't know where Gil or others who make such claims come down on those three options, but it's a problem on any of them. If you ask Richard Dawkins if he is ambivalent about whether to pass his beliefs down to his children, what do you think he'd say? Of course that's a priority for him, as it is for any conscientious parent. Dawkins just has a set of core principles - rational thought, scientific thinking, anti-authoritarian courage in the face of (Christian in his social context) cultural hegemony, valuing corrective feedback loops and reliance on objective falsification and validation wherever possible, interest in human nature and human biology as the basis for human morality and progress, and as the predicate for priorities on justice, equality, law, liberty, etc. A lot of that negates and discredits Christianity, obviously, but Dawkins is not one we would find to be ambivalent. He resist the indoctrination of dogma, as do I -- all of the things he would impart are not given as "de fide", as unassailable divine truths or cosmic moral commitments to some deity or other tyrant. They are just tools that have shown themselves to work, and to be more accretive for human dignity, well-being and progress than any other set of tools. It can and should be tested and questioned, all of it. But that doesn't mean that it's given with a sense of ambivalence. Dawkins would scoff at such a notion, and at the related notion that such a person would be any kind of "Dawkins-style atheist".eigenstate
November 11, 2011
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Hi Steve, Thanks very much. Glad you appreciated my pro-life essay.vjtorley
November 11, 2011
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Hi computerist, I don't eat meat myself actually, although I'll eat fish. If you're a vegetarian for ethical reasons, all I can say is: good for you. Nowadays there are so many substitutes for meat.vjtorley
November 11, 2011
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Hi Kairosfocus, Glad you liked the essay I wrote. You're certainly right about people "out there" adopting different ethical codes - and some of these can be very nasty ones, too. Thanks again.vjtorley
November 11, 2011
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Hi Upright Biped, I had a good chuckle when I read that. Thanks.vjtorley
November 11, 2011
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Hi Goodusername (#12), Thanks for your comments. Re the Martian case, you ask: "So why SHOULDN’T a Martian that displays sentience and feelings and intelligence, etc, have the same rights as us humans?" I'm not saying it wouldn't. They just wouldn't be human rights, that's all. They'd be Martian rights. Re the breast-feeding case: the breast-feeding mother may be aware, in the abstract, that breast-feeding hinders the implantation of zygotes, but she is not aware of whether she has a zygote inside her body; nor does she intend its death. Since neither foresight nor intent are present, we cannot call her a murderer, by any stretch of the imagination. Now let's get to the heart of the matter: why do we value people? You write:
If the person you used to know no longer feels, thinks, or is sentient, etc, and is declared “brain dead”, than you person you know is gone – there is no longer “personhood”.
First of all: would you value someone (e.g. a friend or family member) who could feel and was sentient, but could not think? I'm guessing that you would say no. In that case, you're not a sentientist but a personist. In my essay, I addressed the arguments of both sentientists and personists in Parts C and D respectively. Now if you're a personist, then you have to answer the question of why it would be wrong to kill Ripley in Alien 3, while she was in a state of cryogenic sleep - or for that matter, why it would be wrong to kill someone in a coma (the longest one lasted for was 37 years), but OK to kill an embryo who will wake up in just a few months. You might say that Ripley already has a developed brain. I say: so what, if the embryo is running its own program that will build it one, without the need for further instructions from outside? Recall my case of the Master Spy in Part A, section (iv). A thing that can assemble itself into a computer is just as valuable as the computer it assembles itself into, so if you were a spy, you'd be just as happy to steal it as you would be happy to steal an actual computer. You might say that Ripley can think and has a concept of self. OK, fine. Does that mean that you don't regard a newborn baby as a person? It certainly doesn't have a concept of self - and it's a lot less smart than a crow, a chimp or a dolphin, when it's born. But even if you are willing to bite the bullet and say that babies aren't people, there's still a flaw in ascribing value only to human beings whose brains have already been molded by the information they've been exposed to in the outside world - i.e. their experiences of and interactions with others, which have made them into the persons they are. That sounds like a plausible personist view, but it isn't. Here's why. First, the personist argument above is fundamentally flawed, because it fails to distinguish between information and instructions. Even if the amount of information added to our brains exceeds the amount of information in human DNA, only the latter information deserves to be called instructions, because it is part of a developmental program telling the embryo/fetus how to assemble itself. Instructions are one level up from the information the embryo/fetus receives from the outside world. For it is these instructions that process the information coming in from outside, using it to mold the unborn child's brain. Second, I would like to reiterate that no new formative information is added to a developing embryo/fetus after fertilization. By formative information, I mean the instructions in its developmental program that tell a human organism how to develop. (That also includes its brain.) Those instructions are contained in each body cell of the embryo, in its genome. And they are also found in a one-cell embryo. I might add that my gut instincts are very different from yours, regarding what I'd value. Let me illustrate. Think of a close friend or family member, and the information in their brains (good and bad memories, pleasant and unpleasant feelings, lessons learned in life, etc.) which makes them into the person they are (on your account). Now imagine that medical technology is much more advanced than it is now, but that a head transplant is medically necessary for some reason, to save that family member's life. Or imagine that the family member opts for a head transplant. Which would you value as the person you loved: the head or the body? And what if the body their head is transplanted onto is robotic? Now imagine that this person wants to load their all their personal memories onto a CD, before they die. Assuming it were doable, would you ascribe any ethical value to the CD? If you're self-consistent in your ethics, you'd ascribe value to the head and the to the CD. But I wouldn't. I'd identify more with the loved one's body, and I'd attach zero importance to the CD. In my book, anything that doesn't have a body, isn't even an organism, and therefore isn't an individual. Or again: consider the case of a sick, disturbed individual walking into a hospital and going into a ward where people in a permanent vegetative state are kept. Now suppose that the disturbed individual takes all the bodies and feeds them to some hungry wild animals. On your own account of personhood, you shouldn't care, right? But you DO care, don't you?vjtorley
November 11, 2011
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OT I was link surfing and came across a website called "Theology Degrees Online"... and noticed this from (apparently) a professor: "Creationism, also known as the theory of intelligent design, holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause" ...for crying out loud. So not only can ID be accused of being Creationism, but now Creationism is ID.Upright BiPed
November 11, 2011
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Eigenstate, The actual property that embryos possess from the one-cell stage is that they physically instantiate a developmental program, which is running from the get-go. What I've attempted to argue (especially in Part A, section (iv)) is that any human organism possessing this actual property has the same inherent value as you or I have. Now it is certainly true that a developing organism has not yet reached the (actual) goal of its development. But the developmental program it is running as it moves towards this goal is actual: it's encoded in its genome, in every single one of its cells. So in answer to your argument: my argument does not rest squarely on potential futures; it rests on current, actually running developmental programs. There is no resemblance here to Singer's case of a prince who is a potential king, as the prince is not transforming himself into a king. Rather, kingship is something which will be conferred upon him when the current monarch passes away. The prince does not make himself a king; but the embryo does make itself into an adult, by virtue of the developmental program it is currently running.vjtorley
November 11, 2011
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