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Emergence and the Dormitive Principle

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There is a famous passage in Molière’s play The Imaginary Invalid in which he satirizes the tactic of tautology given as explanation.  A group of medieval doctors are giving an oral exam to a doctoral candidate, and they ask him why opium causes people to get sleepy.  The candidate responds:

Mihi à docto Doctore
Domandatur causam & rationem, quare
Opium facit dormire ?
A quoy respondeo,
Quia est in eo
Virtus dormitiua,
Cuius est natura
Sensus assoupire.

Which is translated:

I am asked by the learned doctor the cause and reason why opium causes sleep.  To which I reply, because it has a dormitive property, whose nature is to lull the senses to sleep.

Of course, “dormitive” is derived from the Latin “dormire,” which means to sleep.  Thus, the candidate’s explanation boils down to “opium causes people to get sleepy because it has a property that causes people to get sleepy.”  It is a tautology disguised as an explanation.

Funny, no?  A real scientist would never stoop to such linguistic tricks, right?  Wrong. 

Consider the materialist explanation for consciousness.  We are told that the mind is an “emergent property” of the brain.  Yes, and sleep is induced by the dormitive property of opium. 

UPDATE

Unsurprisingly, our materialist interlocutors point to the fact that “emergence” as a general concept is commonplace and therefore “emergence” as an explanation for consciousness is perfectly adequate.  We will see how their argument is circular in this update. 

Viola Lee

If emergent is not a good term, what is? Use the salt example: “Just as Na and Cl are widely different from each other, the compound NACL or salt is widely different from either.” If salt has properties that are quite unlike those of its constituent parts, how does one describe where the properties of salt come from? What concept or word would be accurate here?

Bob O’H

Barry – is the only possible explanation for something that it emerges from something else?

Viola’s and Bob’s argument is circular.  It assumes the very thing to be decided. 

Here is the materialist argument:  Sodium and chloride combine to form salt, which is surprisingly different from either sodium or chloride.  Oxygen and hydrogen combine to form water, which is surprisingly different from either oxygen or hydrogen.  And no one objects when we say salt “emerged” from the combination of sodium and chloride or that water “emerged” from the combination of oxygen and hydrogen.  This is merely another way of stating a reductionist account of how a physical thing (salt or water) can be reduced to the combination of its physical constituents.  It is utterly mysterious how salt comes from mixing sodium and chloride, and it is utterly mysterious how water comes from mixing oxygen and hydrogen.  Calling what happened “emergence” is as good term as any.  The mysterious emergence of one physical thing from other physical things in ways that we cannot explain is common.  Therefore, that consciousness “emerged” from the physical properties of the brain in a mysterious way that we cannot explain is unsurprising.  Nothing to see here; move along. 

Viola’s and Bob’s religious commitments have led them into a glaring logical error.1  It should be obvious that the very thing to be decided is whether, in principle, the mental can be reduced to the physical.  Viola and Bob argue that physical things emerge from other physical things all the time; therefore that the mind emerges from the physical properties of the brain is unsurprising. 

Wait a second.  Viola’s and Bob’s argument works only if one assumes that the mental can be accounted for in physicalist reductionist terms.  They have assumed their conclusion and argued in a tight little circle. 

Viola’s and Bob’s logic has gone off the rails, because the issue to be decided is not whether one physical thing can emerge in surprising ways from a combination of other physical things.  No one disputes that we see examples of this, such as salt and water, all around us.  The issue to be decided is whether mental properties – subjective self-awareness, intentionality, qualia, free will, thoughts, etc. – can emerge from physical constituents.  The question to be answered is whether the mental can be reduced to the physical.  Answering that question by pointing out that we see the physical reduced to the physical is no answer at all. 

There is an obvious vast, unbridgeable ontological chasm between mental phenomena and physical phenomena.  Therefore, the burden is on materialists to account for how, in principle, a particular combination of chemicals can, for example, have subjective self-awareness.  Many materialists (Sam Harris comes to mind) understand this is an impossible burden and therefore deny that we have subjective self-awareness at all, and our perception that we do is an illusion (who is deceived Sam?).  Here again, we see materialists forced by their religious commitments to say crazy, obviously false, things.  That we are subjectively self-aware has for good reason been called the primordial datum.  Everyone knows beyond the slightest doubt that he is subjectively self-aware, and the very act of attempting to refute it is self-referentially incoherent.  Chemicals cannot know, and asserting chemicals know they cannot know is (i.e. that chemicals have intentionality) is absurd. 

In conclusion, Viola and Bob say, essentially, things emerge from other things all the time; therefore the mind emerged from the brain.  This is an obvious non sequitur and their augment fails. 

_____________________

1Materialism is, at bottom, a religious proposition. 

Comments
Of related note to 'identifying the Designer', Return of the God Hypothesis: Three Scientific Discoveries That Reveal the Mind Behind the Universe – March 30, 2021 https://www.amazon.com/Return-God-Hypothesis-Compelling-Scientific/dp/0062071505 Description Excerpt: ,,, Meyer demonstrates how discoveries in cosmology and physics coupled with those in biology help to establish the identity of the designing intelligence behind life and the universe. Meyer argues that theism — with its affirmation of a transcendent, intelligent and active creator — best explains the evidence we have concerning biological and cosmological origins. Previously Meyer refrained from attempting to answer questions about “who” might have designed life. Now he provides an evidence-based answer to perhaps the ultimate mystery of the universe. In so doing, he reveals a stunning conclusion: the data support not just the existence of an intelligent designer of some kind—but the existence of a personal God.bornagain77
May 7, 2021
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JVL:
But you never talk about implementation.
We don't know it. And it is obviously above our capabilities. And there are more important questions to answer.
Sure, how do you test that with an experiment?
It's all covered in the book
That’s just you trying to find some way to not back down from your claims.
No, it's a fact. You are conflating a what for a who. As I said if that is good enough than saying a non-human designed us is OK.
Clearly they ARE trying to figure that out.
Name the labs and the experiments.
D will gain traction when it offers up some explanations beyond: these things were designed.
Why? Saying these things were designed is still by far more than you and yours have. Your side can't answer anything. It is all just a long, untestable narrative based on nothing more than imagination. All you can do is try to poke holes in ID but all you have is your scientific illiteracy. So it is very telling that when to refute ID all you and yours have to do is support the claims of your very own position, you choose to flail away at ID for not doing something that it was never intended to do. It's as if evolution is false because abiogenesis hasn't panned out.ET
May 7, 2021
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JVL:
And, guess what, no one in the ID community is even attempting to move past the design inference.
And guess what? Your ignorance is not an argument. "the Privileged Planet" obviously moves past the design inference.
Besides, ID is defined to NOT move past the design inference.
Just as evolution and abiogenesis are held separate. There isn't anything in ID that prevents people from asking and seeking answers to the other questions. That is what proves ID is NOT a dead end. ID is a better explanation because it is testable and potentially falsifiable. Saying Stonehenge is an artifact is a better explanation than geological processes for the same formation.
And ID says: don’t ask those questions, we don’t deal with those questions.
What an infant you are, eh? ID is OK with those questions. Those questions prove that ID is not a scientific dead end. What is needed is training of generations of investigators to look into these questions. I have told you this many times and yet you continue to dodge the facts.ET
May 7, 2021
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JVL:--- "Can ID be said to be a better ‘explanation’ when it cannot, by definition, answer certain questions about the origin of life or about the implementation of design?" Yes. The very fact that it cannot -- and doesn't try -- to explain those things shows that it doesn't want to bite off more than it can chew. The whole point of ID is to limit the scope of the study so as to achieve rigor and to use a methodology that is specifically formulated to test the (design) hypothesis based on the expertise of the scientist who formulated it. Even the narrow hypothesis "It was designed" can be further narrowed into categories such as, it was designed because it "explains the existence of information in the cell,* (Meyer) or because *its features are "irreducibly complex* (Behe), or because " *an explanatory filter can rule out chance or necessity" (Dembski), and so on. These are all evidence-based propositions based on empirical observation and analysis. If the competing paradigm of unguided evolution were too limit its scope and argue that it can explain certain changes in a given species, it would not be biting off more than it can chew. But, of course, it doesn't submit to that kind of discipline at all. On the contrary, the so-called theory of evolution holds that naturalistic forces, acting alone, possess the causal power to drive the entire macro- evolutionary process from beginning to end and through every taxonomic level. Where is the evidence? Where is the rigor? Where is the methodological discipline? It doesn't exist. Why would you think that the ideology of unguided evolution is superior to the science of intelligent design?StephenB
May 7, 2021
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JVL, you had your answer staring you in the face and could not acknowledge it. Intelligent design in the world of life -- though it's early stages for us -- is an established technology. Design techniques exist and are widely practiced. That's enough for any reasonable person. As for reconstructing the unobserved past on ideologically loaded assumptions, we can leave it to others. There are enough traces to show clear design: code, so language, algorithms so goals, associated molecular nanotech, it's clear we are dealing with confession by projection to the despised other, here. Your cognitive dissonance is drowning out your talk-points and rhetorical demands. It's over, your objection is dead. KFkairosfocus
May 7, 2021
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JVL
Please note that Upright Biped‘s attempt to hijack the thread and direct it to some other topic has not been decried by the moderators.
JVL, you are a hypocritical coward. UB points that out. Why would we decry that? It is generally considered a good thing when hypocrisy and cowardice are called out. I have no idea why you would think otherwise (admittedly, being the one called out probably influences your view in this particular instance).Barry Arrington
May 7, 2021
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JVL
Sandy: You don’t have a scientific mind. If 2 living systems fight that means one of them must not be guided? How in the world you came up with this idea?
Who knows? Why can’t you answer basic and simple questions? Do you think HIV was designed? If not then where did it come from?
My friend, which part of EVERYTHING you missed? Nothing work without being designed.Sandy
May 7, 2021
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Upright Biped: I’ve already told you that if you are going to stay here and attack ID, then I reserve the right to question your statements. You always squeal to position this as a terror in your life (sic). Who knows why you think your reasoning should be exempt from critique, particularly given how utterly incoherent it is. I never said my reasoning was exempt from critique. But I would like a simple and direct answer to my question. Your question has been answered. It shouldn’t even need an answer. Nowhere in the intellectual world do we say “Unless you can answer everything, you must not answer anything”. It’s ridiculous on its face. One proposal on the OoL has entailments that were predicted, experimentally confirmed, and is the only cause knows (sic) to be adequate to the observation. The other has never been known to be such a cause, and no one can even figure out how it could be possible. Let’s go with #2, cause #1 doesn’t answer everything! Right. Sigh. Not only do some of those sentences not make much sense but you still have not answered my question. Can ID be said to be a better 'explanation' when it cannot, by definition, answer certain questions about the origin of life or about the implementation of design? I'm not the one who has said over and over and over again that ID does not address the how and when and why and who of when design was implemented. That's down to you guys. You continue to say that ID is a 'better' explanation of the development of life when you also says it cannot address those topics. I don't see how it can be a 'better' explanation when it cannot address those topics. ID seems to be able to only answer one, specific question and to go no further than that. That doesn't sound like a 'better' explanation to me.JVL
May 7, 2021
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Sandy: You don’t have a scientific mind. If 2 living systems fight that means one of them must not be guided? How in the world you came up with this idea? Who knows? Why can't you answer basic and simple questions? Do you think HIV was designed? If not then where did it come from?JVL
May 7, 2021
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Kairosfocus: JVL, h’mm, did you notice that genetic engineering is now a technology? As in, design in the world of life is a demonstrated technology based on well known design methods and principles. Your objection is dead. What objection are you referring to exactly? What did I say that was incorrect? By the way, maybe you'd like to answer my question which everyone else has dodged: Can ID claim to be a 'better' explanation when it avoids answering, by definition, questions regarding how and when life was initiated on Earth.JVL
May 7, 2021
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.
Please note that Upright Biped‘s attempt to hijack the thread
You asked a question at 56. I answered it at 59. I’ve already told you that if you are going to stay here and attack ID, then I reserve the right to question your statements. You always squeal to position this as a terror in your life. Who knows why you think your reasoning should be exempt from critique, particularly given how utterly incoherent it is.
Upright Biped has consistently and intentionally avoided answering the question I have presented
Your question has been answered. It shouldn’t even need an answer. Nowhere in the intellectual world do we say “Unless you can answer everything, you must not answer anything”. It’s ridiculous on its face. One proposal on the OoL has entailments that were predicted, experimentally confirmed, and is the only cause knows to be adequate to the observation. The other has never been known to be such a cause, and no one can even figure out how it could be possible. Let’s go with #2, cause #1 doesn’t answer everything! Right.Upright BiPed
May 7, 2021
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JVL
Sandy: ? I said everything is guided . I missed where you proved me wrong.
So, you think HIV and Malaria were designed? Is that correct? What about sickle cell anaemia?
You don't have a scientific mind. If 2 living systems fight that means one of them must not be guided? How in the world you came up with this idea?Sandy
May 7, 2021
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JVL, h'mm, did you notice that genetic engineering is now a technology? As in, design in the world of life is a demonstrated technology based on well known design methods and principles. Your objection is dead. KFkairosfocus
May 7, 2021
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Sandy: ? I said everything is guided . I missed where you proved me wrong. So, you think HIV and Malaria were designed? Is that correct? What about sickle cell anaemia?JVL
May 7, 2021
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JVL
Sandy: There is NOTHING unguided on a cell or organism .Everything is guided with a great precision otherway bad things happen with life.
So, do you think HIV arose via unguided processes? How about malaria? The common cold? Polio? Rickets? How about cancer? Melanoma? Anthrax? Ulcers? Acid reflux? Herpes? STDs?
:) I said everything is guided . I missed where you proved me wrong.Sandy
May 7, 2021
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Please note that Upright Biped's attempt to hijack the thread and direct it to some other topic has not been decried by the moderators. A clear double standard. Also, please note, that Upright Biped has consistently and intentionally avoided answering the question I have presented: can ID claim to be a 'better' explanation when it chooses, by definition, to avoid certain obvious and natural questions about the biological start of life on Earth.JVL
May 7, 2021
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Folks, I see I am both early [c 2007] and rather late here. I note from SB at 25:
VL: —“Other than the fact that they obviously do have the power, because they do make salt, what is “in” sodium and chlorine that makes that a possibility?” [SB:] I suspect that it is related to the power inherent in the process of chemical bonding and the transfer of electrons. However, your question misses the point: We don’t use scientific experiments to test the reliability of reason’s rules: we use reason’s rules to test the reliability of scientific experiments.
SB is correct. Chlorine, a halogen [one short of a closed p-orbital], is highly electronegative and readily closes a relevant orbital by snatching up an electron, whilst Sodium, an alkali metal is much less tight in its hold on the last s-electron. This is the basis for the old 8-electron shell rule used in basic chem courses. They therefore form electrostatically coupled ions in a close packed crystalline structure. Melt it and we have ions, dissolve it and the same save with water molecules clustering around. NaCl is one of the commonest examples of salts as ionic solids. That sort of effect has zip to do with trying to say a reasoning, free mind governed by its awareness of moral duties, somehow emerges from a computational substrate, more or less neural networks in the brain. By contrast, we can readily show that computational substrates are dynamic stochastic machines, driven by cause-effect, not ground-consequent bonds. A much sounder view is suggested by Eng Derek Smith. the body forms a cybernetic loop, with an in the loop neural network controller. That controller can be explained further as interacting with a supervisory controller. So, the brain is the mind's computer, not the mind's source. Quantum influence effects have been suggested. KFkairosfocus
May 7, 2021
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. JVL: Finding this would tell us that. UB: If it tells us that over there, then it must tell us that over here too. JVL: No it doesn’t UB: Why not? JVL: Because it doesn’t even tell us that!Upright BiPed
May 7, 2021
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VL
I am sorry to see this discussion turn into a replay of an old feud.
But, don’t underestimate the entertainment value of a childish cat-fight. :)paige
May 7, 2021
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. JVL: I would not be surprised at all if we find electromagnetic evidence of intelligent beings in other solar systems UB: How would we know if we found “electromagnetic evidence of intelligent beings”? What would that be? JVL: Something like in the movie Contact. A signal that’s very clearly NOT produced by unguided processes. A signal which, after inspection, was shown to have compressed data. UB: So you accept encoded symbolic content as a universal inference to the presence of an unknown intelligence in one domain, while immediately denying that same physical evidence in another domain. Why the double standard? JVL: Because there is no plausible designer available. UB: Well, who is the designer of the symbolic content in your SETI scenario? JVL: There is no designer. In my opinion. UB: That is incoherent. JVL: Yes, I know, thinking there is no design (and therefore not designer) is an incoherent stance. That is your opinion. But that doesn’t mean you are correct. UB: So why then do you think finding a signal containing symbolic content would be “electromagnetic evidence of intelligent beings in other solar systems”? In your effort to evade the fact that you apply a gratuitous double-standard in your reasoning, you didn’t appropriately remove the double-standard as would be the reasoned response, instead you reduced your entire position to complete incoherence.Upright BiPed
May 7, 2021
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Upright Biped: I’ve already answered it. It has been answered by others as well. Not very clearly or obviously in this thread. Why not make your stance crystal clear, here, now. Nope. That’s incoherent. Yes, I know, thinking there is no design (and therefore not designer) is an incoherent stance. That is your opinion. But that doesn't mean you are correct. IF ID wants to address the 'when' then let's be specific, unlike you. WHEN do you think design was implemented?JVL
May 7, 2021
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.
Perhaps you’d like to answer my question: can ID be considered a ‘better’ explanation
I’ve already answered it. It has been answered by others as well.
There is no designer. In my opinion.
That sure seems incoherent. Let us put it in play and see if that is the case: - - - - - - - - - - JVL: I would not be surprised at all if we find electromagnetic evidence of intelligent beings in other solar systems UB: How would we know if we found “electromagnetic evidence of intelligent beings”? What would that be? JVL: Something like in the movie Contact. A signal that’s very clearly NOT produced by unguided processes. A signal which, after inspection, was shown to have compressed data. UB: So you accept encoded symbolic content as a universal inference to the presence of an unknown intelligence in one domain, while immediately denying that same physical evidence in another domain. Why the double standard? JVL: Because there is no plausible designer available. UB: Well, who is the designer of the symbolic content in your SETI scenario? JVL: There is no designer. In my opinion. – – – – – – – – – – Nope. That’s incoherent.Upright BiPed
May 7, 2021
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re 73: Absolutely not! :-) I had some things to say upstream, but that was before you showed up this morning. Your interaction with JVL goes back a number of threads, and reappears in approximately the same format when it does, it seems.Viola Lee
May 7, 2021
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Upright Biped: They were delivered. You could not refute them, indeed you had to agree with them. This forced you to apply a double-standard to your position in order to stay on the field. Perhaps you'd like to answer my question: can ID be considered a 'better' explanation when, by definition, it cannot answer certain questions which unguided evolutionary theory addresses? Proof of double-standard: In your own words, you say that you accept encoded symbolic content from space as a valid inference to design. So would everyone else on the planet. Name the designer. There is no designer. In my opinion. Perhaps you'd like to at least acknowledge my question: can ID be considered a 'better' explanation when it, by definition, cannot answer certain questions which are addressed by unguided evolutionary theory?JVL
May 7, 2021
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.
Perhaps it’s time for you and the ID community to step up to the plate and deliver the goods. If you can.
They were delivered. You could not refute them, indeed you had to agree with them. This forced you to apply a double-standard to your position in order to stay on the field. Proof of double-standard: In your own words, you say that you accept encoded symbolic content from space as a valid inference to design. So would everyone else on the planet. Name the designer.Upright BiPed
May 7, 2021
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Upright Biped: JVL, I answered your questions “How” and “When”. Regarding your answers at #59 . . . I don't think those responses were very helpful. Why not get more specific? When, exactly, was the origin of life on Earth? How were all those symbols set up and implemented into the natural order? How did 'the designer' get the chemistry to follow their plan? You didn’t lift a finger to explore those answers because to do so would force you to have to (once again) deal directly with the physical evidence of design. You already know that all the established science and history is against your on that front, and to add insult to injury, it is all clearly documented and entirely coherent as well. That is also why you will not explore those answers even after being embarrassingly prompted by this reply. I have discussed those issues with you. And now I'm asking a question: can ID be considered a 'better' explanation when it, by definition, cannot answer obvious follow-on questions? As opposed to unguided evolutionary theory. Perhaps its time for a new sock? Perhaps it's time for you and the ID community to step up to the plate and deliver the goods. If you can. Let's just focus on the question I have asked: can ID be considered a 'better' explanation' when it, by definition, cannot address many questions about the origin or life on Earth?JVL
May 7, 2021
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. Viola, referring to a deception being repeated (over and over again) as an “old feud” is cheap help. Are you signaling you’d like to step in?Upright BiPed
May 7, 2021
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. JVL, I answered your questions “How” and “When”. You didn’t lift a finger to explore those answers because to do so would force you to have to (once again) deal directly with the physical evidence of design. You already know that all the established science and history is against your on that front, and to add insult to injury, it is all clearly documented and entirely coherent as well. That is also why you will not explore those answers even after being embarrassingly prompted by this reply. Perhaps its time for a new sock?Upright BiPed
May 7, 2021
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I am sorry to see this discussion turn into a replay of an old feud.Viola Lee
May 7, 2021
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Upright Biped: Good god man, can you not see that everyone with a lick of sense clearly sees what you are doing? Do you really think you invented this line of defense and no one has seen such a thing before, and no one catches what’s going on? I'd just like you to address my question: can ID be considered a 'better' explanation when it, by definition, can only answer one particular question. Why the double standard JVL? Why can't you, why won't you answer my question? Afraid of something? You can keep trying to deflect the issue but you are clearly not even trying to answer my issue. Why is that?JVL
May 7, 2021
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