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Engineering Tradeoffs and the Vacuity of “Fitness”

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Over at The New Atlantis Stephen L. Talbott has a great discussion of the vacuity of the idea of “fitness” as used in Darwinian theory. As we all know, Darwinian theory “predicts” that the “fittest” organisms will survive and leave more offspring. And what makes an organism “fit” under the theory? Why, the fact that it survived and left offspring. There is an obvious circularity here:

This is the long-running and much-debated claim that natural selection, as an explanation of the evolutionary origin of species, is tautological — it cannot be falsified because it attempts no real explanation. It tells us: the kinds of organisms that survive and reproduce are the kinds of organisms that survive and reproduce.

Darwinists counter the tautology charge by attempting to demonstrate that there are independent criteria (so-called “engineering criteria”) that explain reproductive success. For example, if a wolf runs faster, it will be more fit, and therefore the trait that gives the wolf the extra speed (longer legs perhaps) explains its fitness, not merely the fact that it did survive and reproduce.

However, the appeal to engineering criteria in the abstract does not by itself get us very far. As philosopher Ronald Brady reminded us when discussing this dispute in an essay entitled “Dogma and Doubt,” what matters for judging a proposed scientific explanation is not only the specification of non-tautological criteria for testing it, but also our ability to apply the test meaningfully. If we have no practical way to sum up and assess the fitness or adaptive value of the traits of an organism apart from measurements of survival rates (evolutionary success), then on what basis can we use the idea of survival of the fittest (natural selection) to explain evolutionary success — as opposed to using it merely as a blank check for freely inventing explanations of the sort commonly derided as “just-so stories.”

Here is the key sentence:

If we have no practical way to sum up and assess the fitness or adaptive value of the traits of an organism apart from measurements of survival rates . . .

What are you talking about Barry. Isn’t it obvious that a trait like the longer legs that help our wolf run faster will necessarily be beneficial in terms of fitness? Actually, no, it is not obvious. Ask any engineer and he will tell you there are always tradeoffs associated with engineering decisions. You want a faster car? Make it lighter. Is it a “better” car? Well, if by “better” you mean “faster,” of course it is. But if by “better” you mean “safer” maybe not, because a lighter car might not be as structurally sound as a heavier car. The same is true for engineering traits in animals. Talbott quotes two of the most famous Darwinists in history:

George Gaylord Simpson opined that ‘the fallibility of personal judgment as to the adaptive value of particular characters, most especially when these occur in animals quite unlike any now living, is notorious.” And in 1975, the geneticist Theodosius Dobzhansky wrote that no biologist ‘can judge reliably which ‘characters’ are useful, neutral, or harmful in a given species.’

Talbott continues:

One evident reason for this pessimism is that we cannot isolate traits — or the mutations producing them — as if they were independent causal elements. Organism-environment relations present us with so much complexity, so many possible parameters to track, that, apart from obviously disabling cases, there is no way to pronounce on the significance of a mutation for an organism, let alone for a population or for the future of the species.

None other than the famous Richard Lewontin (he of the “divine foot in the door” quotation) has illustrated the point:

A zebra having longer leg bones that enable it to run faster than other zebras will leave more offspring only if escape from predators is really the problem to be solved, if a slightly greater speed will really decrease the chance of being taken and if longer leg bones do not interfere with some other limiting physiological process. Lions may prey chiefly on old or injured zebras likely in any case to die soon, and it is not even clear that it is speed that limits the ability of lions to catch zebras. Greater speed may cost the zebra something in feeding efficiency, and if food rather than predation is limiting, a net selective disadvantage might result from solving the wrong problem. Finally, a longer bone might break more easily, or require greater developmental resources and metabolic energy to produce and maintain, or change the efficiency of the contraction of the attached muscles.

In summary, because all engineering decisions involve tradeoffs, there is no way to tell whether a particular engineering trait, in isolation, caused an organism to be more fit. And this drives us back to where we started. The only way to measure “fitness” is by reproductive success, which is obviously tautological if “fitness” is defined as “reproductively successful.”

Comments
No phoodoo, I am not saying that. I'm saying the non-random survival of heritable variants makes populations adapt to their environment. It's not simply that survivors survive, but those individuals that are best adapted to their environment survive, and so over time lineages become better adapted. Barry seems to think the fact it's hard to predict what variants will be fit is a problem for evolutionary biology, I don't know why he thinks that.wd400
October 8, 2014
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Eric, Yea, I love it, wd400 is saying that inserting the phrase "reproductive success" instead of the word "fittest" takes the tautology out of the argument. So those that survive are now not the fittest, they are the ones that survive. Now I am really confused about the awesome powers of natural selection to create things, if the concept of natural selection is simply those that survive survive. That's what created all the magical life on earth? Its not that the BEST ones survived, its that the ones that survived survived. Its true, those that survived survived.phoodoo
October 8, 2014
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This older thread of Barry's might also be worth reviewing (the exchange with Box's thoughtful comments and questions) as it relates to natural selection and the concept of fitness (starting with comment 73), and in particular comment 81: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/commenter-apparently-believes-that-only-part-of-darwinian-evolution-is-blindmindlessunguided-maybe-if-we-ask-nice-he-will-enlighten-us-poor-benighted-id-slobs-about-which-part/#comment-486594Eric Anderson
October 8, 2014
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If we have no practical way to sum up and assess the fitness or adaptive value of the traits of an organism apart from measurements of survival rates . . .
This is exactly the case in almost all examples that are proffered. To be sure, I think it is logically possible to identify independent criteria that could give us a non-tautological assessment of fitness. But it is significantly more tricky than most people realize, and in the vast majority of cases, the "survival of the fittest" operates as a useless tautology. Actually, it is generally worse than useless. It gives the false impression of having provided us with some useful information, an answer to the mystery of a particular organism's survival. However, in nearly all cases invoking "survival of the fittest" simply masks our ignorance of the real underlying processes in question. And, I would add in response to those who think that "reproductive success" (or some similar wording) is a way out of the tautology -- no it isn't. It suffers the same exact problems as the more general "survival of the fittest" formulation. At the risk of tooting one's own horn, these may be of interest: https://web.archive.org/web/20090906123249/http://www.evolutiondebate.info/A%20Good%20Tautology%20is%20Hard%20to%20Avoid.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20080723214029/http://www.evolutiondebate.info/ThoughtsonNS.pdfEric Anderson
October 8, 2014
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-Q ;-)Querius
October 8, 2014
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wd400 wrote
it is not “Survival of the fittest”, it’s non-random reproductive success of hertible variants.
LOL! Love it! "That's not a gun, it's a non-reciprocating, single-stroke internal combustion engine. Caution: the piston can come loose." Non-random says it all. Take that out and what's left? -Q -QQuerius
October 8, 2014
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@wd400 #25 I was quoting part of their conclusion, showing that the issues I mentioned are not considered to have been resolved in the 1920's. I don't really feel like typing the book out so if you want the full substance of their argument you can always go pick it up. In the interim, there was a pretty straightforward review at ENV that might be useful. And BTW, just taking a look at the review reminded me that I misspoke when I attributed the "spandrel" designation to Gould and Eldredge. It was actually Gould and Lewontin.HeKS
October 8, 2014
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Even most Creationists accept that there is a differential rate of survival and reproduction within populations and that as a result populations can change and adapt to changing environments. The concept of "fitness" is no different there, often called micro-evolution, than it is among those that believe in universal common descent. That "the fit survive" is not the theory of evolution. Natural Selection isn't a theory of who survives, it’s a theory of what occurs as a result that some individuals have a better chance of surviving (or more accurately, breeding) than others. The statement that “some individuals have a better chance of surviving than others” – is not a tautology. The statement that “over time the characteristics of a population will change depending on who survives” – is also not a tautology. These are the base of Darwinism. "Survival of the fittest" is obviously a tautology. But defining those that survive and breed the "fit" is not "vacous", it's a definition. Again, the concept is no different than with those that believe that natural selection is involved with micro-evolution.goodusername
October 8, 2014
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HeKS, Fodor and Piattelli-Palmarini are playing silly philosophical games, I really can't see anything of substance in the quoted passage. Evolutionary biology, and natural selection in particular, is a productive scientific field that allows us to propose and test ideas. When you see a huge region of low genetic diversity around the lactose tolerance allele in dairying cultures you know slection has acted, not matter what Fodor and Piattelli-Palmarini might think.wd400
October 8, 2014
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For those that haven't chucked their toys: If there is a central idea in Darwinism it is not "Survival of the fittest", it's non-random reproductive success of hertible variants. That's what allows adaptation to work, and to compound on earlier generations of adaptation and it does not contain a tautology.wd400
October 8, 2014
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@Barry #20, re: wd400 #19 Perhaps I should have finished my quote from comment #23:
And if there aren’t any laws of adaptation, there is (as far as anybody knows) no way to construct a notion of selection-for that isn’t just empty. And 'selection-for' is not a notion that a (neo)Darwinian account of evolution can do without.
"Survival of the Fittest" is a widely-used (though some may claim not absolutely accurate) shorthand reference to the mechanism of Natural Selection. Nonetheless, the criticisms of Natural Selection as being an empty concept don't rely on the specific wording of the shorthand but on the specifics of the concept itself.HeKS
October 8, 2014
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@wd400 #10 Was that directed at me? You do realize that Gould and Eldredge were noting these problems I mention as being major issues in the 1970's and 80's, right? And Fodor and Piattelli-Palmarini addressed them as still being major issues in 2011, judging the concept of selection-for to be vacuous. From What Darwin Got Wrong (pg 136):
When [adaptationist explanations of the evolution of heritable traits] work it's because they provide plausible historical narratives, not because they cite covering laws. In particular, pace Darwinists, adaptationism does not articulate the mechanisms of the selection of heritable phenotypic traits; it couldn't because there aren't any mechanisms of the selection of heritable phenotypic traits (as such). All there are are the many, many different ways in which various creatures manage to flourish in the many, many environmental situations in which they manage to do so. Diamond (in Mayr, 2001, p. x) remarks that Darwin didn't just present 'a well-thought-out theory of evolution. Most importantly, he also proposed a theory of causation, the theory of natural selection.' Well, if we're right, that's exactly what Darwin did not do: a 'theory of causation' is exactly what the theory of natural selection is not. Come to think of it, it's exactly what we still don't have.
After pointing out that there are not actually any laws of adaptation, they conclude (pg 138):
And if there aren't any laws of adaptation, there is (as far as anybody knows) no way to construct a notion of selection-for that isn't just empty.
My point here is not that the vacuity of the concept of Natural Selection automatically proves Evolutionary tales are a false historical narrative, but that claims that Natural Selection provides some kind of a causal theory of macroevolution are empty in spite of their widespread popularity.HeKS
October 8, 2014
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Well, it's staggering to me that anyone could spend years arguing about evolution and end up thinking “Survival of the fittest” was a central idea in "Darwinism", rather than a slightly silly slogan. Here's Doug Futyma, literally the textbook orthodox Darwinian, pointing out some of the problems with the term: http://biology.ufl.edu/courses/IDH2931/2011Summer/smith/Index/Schedule_files/Natural%20Selection.pdfwd400
October 8, 2014
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"Evolutionists proclaim that Darwin's theory is a scientific solution of biological adaptation. This chapter will show their claim to science is mistaken. Natural selection is actually defined many different ways. The theory has many formulations, each with its own downfall. The illusion that 'natural selection is science' is created by shifting between the formulations to meet any objection." - Walter James ReMineMung
October 8, 2014
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WD @ 19. I always get somewhat flummoxed when someone says something so flagrantly wrong. I think to myself, is it really possible they are that stupid/ignorant. Or are they just jerking my chain. Either way, the prospects for a fruitful discussion are dim. Good night.Barry Arrington
October 8, 2014
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But "Survival of the fittest" is not the defining idea of the Darwinism.wd400
October 8, 2014
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WD @ 5.
Why do you think this is a problem?
The more interesting question, WD, is why you think it is not a problem. The defining idea of the Darwinism in which you believe so fervently is a mere tautology. Here is a principle of tautologies that you should ponder. All tautologies are analytic propositions. They are necessarily true. That cannot not be true. It follows that they cannot in principle be falsified. Hence, they are not scientific propositions.Barry Arrington
October 8, 2014
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drc466, Agreed with most of what you said, however you did mistakenly attribute the origin of new species to natural selection. The correct attribution would mutations (point, frameshift, chromosomal), horizontal gene transfer, genetic recombination, etc. I doubt most YECers would balk at the notion that the fox genus (vulpes) is a perfectly good example of natural forces creating new fox species.rhampton7
October 8, 2014
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Mung@6 noted
E = mc^2 Does energy cause mass?
LOL, Mung. Actually, energy also squares the speed of light! Actually, the creative evolutionary biologists that wd400 mentioned could argue that since at the beginning of the big bang, there was only energy but now we have mass, therefore energy *musta evolved* into mass (change over time) by natural selection, since only the "fittest" energy musta survived to propagate. ;-) -QQuerius
October 8, 2014
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As a YEC'er, I'm happy to admit that Natural Selection, survival of the fittest, is a perfectly valid observation of the world. After all, some animals survive, and some go extinct. The article above is also a perfectly valid observation - the definition of fittest is far too complex to predict (think...weather forecasting). We only know after the fact which animals were the fittest, at which point the evolutionist gleefully comes up with a just-so story about why (e.g. their beaks were longer when the nuts were harder, the black ones blended in with the soot better, etc.) that may, or may not, be why they survive while other animals didn't. To make it more confusing, minute and random changes in environment can quickly change which animals are the new fittest. For the purposes of ID, of course, the larger point is that natural selection is a true tautology that provides no value or support for Evolution, because it can only remove species from the gene pool, not add new ones - making it compatible with all theories, not just Evolution. Ah, well.drc466
October 8, 2014
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The idea that speed is an obvious selective advantage, and not an after the fact observations that some animals are fast, is clearly refuted by the fact that some animals are incredibly slow- like a python. Every animal has a way that they survive, and so saying that there is an objective, engineering way to determine "fitness" is of course silly, because any feature an animal has is the features which made it survive. Why didn't python evolve to have the speed of a cheetah? I guess slowness is a survival benefit. Just ask an Oak tree why does it need speed.phoodoo
October 8, 2014
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To be clear, when I said "that's true of some traits sometimes" I was only agreeing that there isn't always a simple map between genotype and phenotype, not signing on to other claims in that commentwd400
October 8, 2014
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As to the ancient first mover argument of Aquinas, the double slit experiment is excellent in illustrating that the 'unmoved mover' argument is valid. In the following video Anton Zeilinger, whose group is arguably the best group of experimentalists in quantum physics today, ‘tries’ to explain the double slit experiment to Morgan Freeman:
Quantum Mechanics - Double Slit Experiment. Is anything real? (Prof. Anton Zeilinger) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayvbKafw2g0
Prof. Zeilinger makes this rather startling statement in the preceding video that meshes perfectly with the ‘first mover argument’::
"The path taken by the photon is not an element of reality. We are not allowed to talk about the photon passing through this or this slit. Neither are we allowed to say the photon passes through both slits. All this kind of language is not applicable." Anton Zeilinger
If that was not enough to get Dr. Zeilinger's point across, at the 4:12 minute mark in this following video,,,
Double Slit Experiment – Explained By Prof Anton Zeilinger – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6101627/
Professor Zeilinger states,,,
"We know what the particle is doing at the source when it is created. We know what it is doing at the detector when it is registered. But we do not know what it is doing in-between." Anton Zeilinger i.e. "The ‘First Mover’ is necessary for change occurring at each moment." - Michael Egnor
Supplemental quote:
"Joel Primack, a cosmologist at the University of California, Santa Cruz, once posed an interesting question to the physicist Neil Turok: “What is it that makes the electrons continue to follow the laws.” Turok was surprised by the question; he recognized its force. Something seems to compel physical objects to obey the laws of nature, and what makes this observation odd is just that neither compulsion nor obedience are physical ideas.,,, Physicists since Einstein have tried to see in the laws of nature a formal structure that would allow them to say to themselves, “Ah, that is why they are true,” and they have failed." Berlinski, The Devil’s Delusion pg. 132-133
Verse and Music:
Acts 17:28 For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.' God Only Knows - BBC Music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqLTe8h0-jo
bornagain77
October 8, 2014
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Neil at 2 claims
Force causes acceleration.
To which C.S. Lewis would reply,,
“In the whole history of the universe the laws of nature have never produced, (i.e. caused), a single event.” C.S. Lewis - doodle video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_20yiBQAIlk
Or perhaps Lewis would have replied to Neil with this humorous quote:
"to say that a stone falls to earth because it's obeying a law, makes it a man and even a citizen" - CS Lewis
In other words, the law of Gravity does not have causal adequacy, or 'agency', within itself. Law is not a 'mechanism' that has ever 'caused' anything to happen in the universe but is merely a description of a regularity within the universe. The early Christian founders of modern science understood this distinction between description and causal agency quite well,,,
Not the God of the Gaps, But the Whole Show - John Lennox - 2012 Excerpt: God is not a "God of the gaps", he is God of the whole show.,,, C. S. Lewis put it this way: "Men became scientific because they expected law in nature and they expected law in nature because they believed in a lawgiver." http://www.christianpost.com/news/the-god-particle-not-the-god-of-the-gaps-but-the-whole-show-80307/ Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Perhaps the most famous confusion of description of a regularity and causal agency was this following quote by Hawking:
"Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing." - Stephen Hawking'
Here is an excerpt of an article, (that is well worth reading in full), in which Dr. Gordon busts Stephen Hawking's confusion between mathematical description of a law and causal agency being the same thing.
BRUCE GORDON: Hawking’s irrational arguments – October 2010 Excerpt: ,,,The physical universe is causally incomplete and therefore neither self-originating nor self-sustaining. The world of space, time, matter and energy is dependent on a reality that transcends space, time, matter and energy. This transcendent reality cannot merely be a Platonic realm of mathematical descriptions, for such things are causally inert abstract entities that do not affect the material world,,, Rather, the transcendent reality on which our universe depends must be something that can exhibit agency – a mind that can choose among the infinite variety of mathematical descriptions and bring into existence a reality that corresponds to a consistent subset of them. This is what “breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe.” Anything else invokes random miracles as an explanatory principle and spells the end of scientific rationality.,,, Universes do not “spontaneously create” on the basis of abstract mathematical descriptions, nor does the fantasy of a limitless multiverse trump the explanatory power of transcendent intelligent design. What Mr. Hawking’s contrary assertions show is that mathematical savants can sometimes be metaphysical simpletons. Caveat emptor. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/1/hawking-irrational-arguments/
Thus, contrary to how atheists imagine reality to be structured, they, in their appeal to the law of gravity as to being causally adequate within itself, have in fact appealed to a vacuous explanation for a 'causal mechanism'. ,,, ,,"vacuous explanation for causal mechanism" reminds me of Lawrence Krauss's argument against God from a few years ago in his book 'A Universe from Nothing',,
Not Understanding Nothing – A review of A Universe from Nothing – Edward Feser - June 2012 Excerpt: A critic might reasonably question the arguments for a divine first cause of the cosmos. But to ask “What caused God?” misses the whole reason classical philosophers thought his existence necessary in the first place. So when physicist Lawrence Krauss begins his new book by suggesting that to ask “Who created the creator?” suffices to dispatch traditional philosophical theology, we know it isn’t going to end well. ,,, ,,, But Krauss simply can’t see the “difference between arguing in favor of an eternally existing creator versus an eternally existing universe without one.” The difference, as the reader of Aristotle or Aquinas knows, is that the universe changes while the unmoved mover does not, or, as the Neoplatonist can tell you, that the universe is made up of parts while its source is absolutely one; or, as Leibniz could tell you, that the universe is contingent and God absolutely necessary. There is thus a principled reason for regarding God rather than the universe as the terminus of explanation. http://www.firstthings.com/article/2012/05/not-understanding-nothing
To put those philosophical arguments more simply, (and at the risk of offending some philosophers), atheistic materialists do not have a causal mechanism to appeal to to explain how the universe originated, nor do they have a causal mechanism to explain why anything continues to exist in the universe, nor do they even have a causal mechanism for explaining how anything, any particle in the universe, moves within the universe! Here are a few notes along that line:
The Kalam Cosmological Argument (argument from the beginning of the universe) - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CulBuMCLg0 God Is the Best Explanation For Why Anything At All Exists - William Lane Craig - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjuqBxg_5mA Aquinas' Third way (argument from existence) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V030hvnX5a4 Aquinas’ First Way – (The First Mover – Unmoved Mover argument) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmpw0_w27As "The ‘First Mover’ is necessary for change occurring at each moment." Michael Egnor – Aquinas’ First Way http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/09/jerry_coyne_and_aquinas_first.html
bornagain77
October 8, 2014
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that's true of some traits some times. Which is why evolutionary biologists had to invent quantatative genetics... in the 1920s...you should look into itwd400
October 8, 2014
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@wd400 #7
Neil makes a good point If “survival of the fittest” were merely descriptive, you might have a point. But it is methodological. It tells biologists what to study. It gives meaning to “fitness”.
The problem is, as per what I mentioned about Gould/Eldredge and Fodor/Piattelli-Palmarini, it doesn't tell biologists what to study. They cannot use it to determine that they should study Trait A in Organism X because that trait in that organism is what was selected for survival. The nature of phenotypic diversity from genetic change is that phenotypes don't come in tidy, discrete boxes. They are often package deals, where multiple traits get carried along at the same time and it's impossible to know what the actual target of selection was in any given case. The result is that the concept of Natural Selection flings the door wide open for endless numbers of just-so stories, but it provides no real guide to scientists as to what traits to study for what reasons.HeKS
October 8, 2014
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If “survival of the fittest” were merely descriptive, you might have a point. But it is methodological. It tells biologists what to study. It gives meaning to “fitness”.
I'm not a biologist, so I don't know what method(s) are identified by the concept "survival of the fittest". It sounds like it is missing a key phrase. The "survival of the fittest" for fill in the blank. In my understanding of the OP it is the inability to identify those blanks that is partly the problem. The example given was whether or not the Zebra needed more speed (e.g. "survival of the fittest for high velocity"). Further compounding the problem is an inability to isolate specific traits as being the cause of the continued survival of the Zebra.ciphertext
October 8, 2014
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Neil makes a good point If “survival of the fittest” were merely descriptive, you might have a point. But it is methodological. It tells biologists what to study. It gives meaning to “fitness”. To which I'd add the importnat thing to grasp is that evolutionary biolgists are interested in variance in fitness, and the degree with which that variance is down to variance in heritable traits.wd400
October 8, 2014
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Neil, From F = ma how do you reach the conclusion that force causes acceleration? E = mc^2 Does energy cause mass? And on and on we could go.Mung
October 8, 2014
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In summary, because all engineering decisions involve tradeoffs, there is no way to tell whether a particular engineering trait, in isolation, caused an organism to be more fit. And this drives us back to where we started. The only way to measure “fitness” is by reproductive success, which is obviously tautological if “fitness” is defined as “reproductively successful.” Why do you think this is a problem? And do you have an example to support this Darwinists counter the tautology charge by attempting to demonstrate that there are independent criteria (so-called “engineering criteria”) ... Perhaps people do this, but I've never run into it...wd400
October 8, 2014
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