Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Epigenetic Inheritance: Can Evolution Adapt?

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Given how routinely evolution fails to explain biology, it is remarkable that scientists still believe in the nineteenth century idea. One of the many problems areas is adaptation. Evolution holds that populations adapt to environmental pressures via the natural selection of blind variations. If more fur is needed, and some individuals accidentally are endowed with mutations that confer a thicker coat of fur, then those individuals will have greater survival and reproduction rates. The thicker fur mutation will then become common in the population.

This is the evolutionary notion of change. It is not what we find in biology. Under the hood, biology reveals far more complex and intelligent mechanisms for change, collectively referred to as epigenetic inheritance. You can read more about the challenge that this form of inheritance poses for evolution here. The take home message is that adaptation is routinely found to be not blind, but rather responsive to environmental pressures. The fur becomes thicker not by accident, but via cellular mechanisms responding to a need.

There is still much to learn about this phenomenal built-in adaptation capability, but it now is clear, and has been for many years, that epigenetic inheritance is a dramatic departure from evolutionary expectations. Indeed, this sort of adaptation is closer to the ideas of the long disgraced French naturalist Jean-Baptiste Lamarck (1744-1829). Lamarck’s idea was that offspring inherit traits or characteristics that were acquired by the parents. Although epigenetic inheritance is far more complex than anything Lamarck imagined, he was remarkably close to what is now being discovered. You can see a recent review of what has been learned here. Only a few years ago positive references to Lamarck drew heated response. Such ideas were not tolerated. Now his name appears regularly in the epigenetics literature.

This leaves evolutionists in an awkward position, to say the least.

Continue reading here.

Comments
Mark Frank:
Information, as defined in the ID world, is just another way of expressing improbability.
Information is improbable. Information is not improbability. The odds of the letters of your post arranging themselves to form a message are astronomical. It's a fact. That's not what makes them information - it's a correlation. It's also handy if someone were to claim that your post was a random accident. Not that anyone would ever suggest something so ridiculous as a whole paragraph of words relevant to their context being typed randomly.ScottAndrews
June 15, 2009
June
06
Jun
15
15
2009
08:27 AM
8
08
27
AM
PDT
Khan:
I just want one example of how the effects of intelligence are measured, with a real biological example.
With the flagellum it is measured by the number of components, the quantities of those components, the placement of those components- 1- account for the origin of the components 2- get them in the right place at the right time 3- properly configure the components This is all in "No Free Lunch"- :
An irreducibly complex system is a discrete combinatorial object. page 290
Pdco = Porig x Plocal x Pconfig With Pconfig there are cross-reactions that have to be taken into account. Chaperones are used to guide components to their destination to prevent cross-reactions from messing up the construction.Joseph
June 15, 2009
June
06
Jun
15
15
2009
08:24 AM
8
08
24
AM
PDT
Joseph,
also i didn’t say there weren’t any equations.
except when you did: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/epigenetic-inheritance-can-evolution-adapt/comment-page-5/#comment-321154 comment 187Khan
June 15, 2009
June
06
Jun
15
15
2009
08:17 AM
8
08
17
AM
PDT
#196 It’s noteworthy that information content is distinguished from mere improbability. No it isn't. The Dembski article simply defines information as the negative logarithm to base 2 of the probability. He has confirmed this definition many, many times. It is nothing more than a mathematical convenience. Information, as defined in the ID world, is just another way of expressing improbability.Mark Frank
June 15, 2009
June
06
Jun
15
15
2009
08:16 AM
8
08
16
AM
PDT
David Kellogg
you seem to be endorsing Joseph’s contention that the minimum CSI of an object = the information content of written instructions to produce that object. Is that correct?
No. I'm sure there's a degree of correlation - the instructions for a 747 are longer than those for a bookshelf. But one doesn't measure the other. For example, I possess information that certain cooking ingredients react in certain ways when mixed and baked. I can write down a recipe that would replicate the results without including all the information that went into the design.ScottAndrews
June 15, 2009
June
06
Jun
15
15
2009
08:16 AM
8
08
16
AM
PDT
Scott, those papers are fine, but have nothing to do with biology. in the sole biological example, Dembski doesn't even discuss the biology of the flagellum, but instead analyzes the complexity of the words we use to describe the flagellum's motion. this is about as far removed from biological reality as I can imagine. is it really a convincing argument to you? Again, I am asking for something quite simple. I am not pulling a jerry and asking you to defend the entire theory of ID. I just want one example of how the effects of intelligence are measured, with a real biological example.Khan
June 15, 2009
June
06
Jun
15
15
2009
08:14 AM
8
08
14
AM
PDT
David Kellogg:
Is there a place in the ID literature where this idea of equating CSI with assembly instructions is expounded?
Although not literature Jonathan Wells discusses this in the video "Unlocking the Mystery of Life"- he says the assembly instructions (for the bac flag) alone are IC. Without the instructions no bac flag. Computer programs are good examples of specified complexity in which there is a direct connection between those programs and the amount of information they contain. But anyways, if you are given just the object to investigate, how else could one figure out the amount of specified information it contains? Myself I don't think it is necessary but it does give an indication of how far removed from nature, operating freely, that object is. It is part of answering one of the main questions science asks: "how did it come to be this way?". And once you do that when someone says this civilization built this but they didn't have any written language, you can just laugh at 'em because you know there isn't any way this could have been produced by word of mouth.Joseph
June 15, 2009
June
06
Jun
15
15
2009
08:08 AM
8
08
08
AM
PDT
correction: also i didn’t say there weren't any equations. Wm Dembski has provided many. IC and CSI still remain more rigorously defined than anything you have to offer that supports your position.Joseph
June 15, 2009
June
06
Jun
15
15
2009
07:58 AM
7
07
58
AM
PDT
Khan:
there is no equation. then ID is the first science without any rigorous quantitative methodology.
then the theory of evolution isn't science. also i didn't say there were any equations.
are you really saying that ID research is comparable in rigor to reality shows on the Sci-Fi channel?
ID has the rigor of ALL design-centric venues, one of which just happens to be refuting claims of the non-natural. ID has more rigor than anything you can offer in support of evolutionism.Joseph
June 15, 2009
June
06
Jun
15
15
2009
07:56 AM
7
07
56
AM
PDT
ScottAndrews and herb, you seem to be endorsing Joseph's contention that the minimum CSI of an object = the information content of written instructions to produce that object. Is that correct? Is there a place in the ID literature where this idea of equating CSI with assembly instructions is expounded?David Kellogg
June 15, 2009
June
06
Jun
15
15
2009
07:51 AM
7
07
51
AM
PDT
But I understand that you are very limited in the use of vocabulary…
Very clever. I admit to a less expansive set of curse words and temper-tantrum vocabulary than displayed on your blog.David Kellogg
June 15, 2009
June
06
Jun
15
15
2009
07:47 AM
7
07
47
AM
PDT
No idea what I did there. ...examples with specific applications including biology. I'm not bluffing and claiming to follow all the math. But there's much more to it than saying, "See it's complex," or "How could that have happened by accident?" It's a positive explanation, not a negative one.ScottAndrews
June 15, 2009
June
06
Jun
15
15
2009
07:46 AM
7
07
46
AM
PDT
Khan @194: Here's an article which uses a few examples to demonstrate how information content can be measured. It's noteworthy that information content is distinguished from mere improbability. This gives examples with specifScottAndrews
June 15, 2009
June
06
Jun
15
15
2009
07:35 AM
7
07
35
AM
PDT
Khan, That tourbillon watch that Clive posted on should be a good example with which to illustrate the concept of information content. I don't know the construction details, but it has 100 parts, if I recall correctly, so it likely takes on the order of 100 steps to assemble, hence its information content is approximately 100 bytes.herb
June 15, 2009
June
06
Jun
15
15
2009
07:28 AM
7
07
28
AM
PDT
Scott
The information content of an object or the number of steps its assembly requires, those can be measured and counted.
that is my question, how? so far all i have gotten in response are questions about written tablets on Mars and references to "Ghost Hunters."Khan
June 15, 2009
June
06
Jun
15
15
2009
07:08 AM
7
07
08
AM
PDT
Khan:ID is the first science without any rigorous quantitative methodology. You're missing the point. ID does not quantify intelligence. The information content of an object or the number of steps its assembly requires, those can be measured and counted. While we're rigorously quantifying, how many genes must be modified for an eyeless creature to have an eye? How many generations? How many offspring? Forget the mechanisms, since no one knows that anyway. What are the numbers?ScottAndrews
June 15, 2009
June
06
Jun
15
15
2009
06:49 AM
6
06
49
AM
PDT
I'll clarify myself - I refer to ID as applied to biology.ScottAndrews
June 15, 2009
June
06
Jun
15
15
2009
06:36 AM
6
06
36
AM
PDT
Joseph, there is no equation. then ID is the first science without any rigorous quantitative methodology. are you really saying that ID research is comparable in rigor to reality shows on the Sci-Fi channel?Khan
June 15, 2009
June
06
Jun
15
15
2009
06:34 AM
6
06
34
AM
PDT
Khan @149:
you’re peddling false equivalencies again. we can quantitatively measure gravity’s effects on numerous scales throughout the universe. by contrast, there is no quantitative way to measure the effects of intelligence.
That's an excellent point. Now just find someone who's trying the measure the effects of intelligence as we do with gravity, and share it with them. You can read a book and determine that the author was intelligent without attempting to analyze his word usage to determine his IQ. At least I think you can. I know where this goes next. Humans write books, but ID would require an unknown intelligence before humans. It's an inference based on knowledge. Why does that make waves, while the magical "it just happened" theory which offers nothing more than ID regarding the implementation, and never explains its own apparent impossibility, is so easy to swallow? Why don't you apply the same critical thinking to it? The only reasons to accept the latter are philosophical and preferential.ScottAndrews
June 15, 2009
June
06
Jun
15
15
2009
06:28 AM
6
06
28
AM
PDT
Thie following is what Dr Behe says about refuting IC:
“Coyne’s conclusion that design is unfalsifiable, however, seems to be at odds with the arguments of other reviewers of my book. Clearly, Russell Doolittle (Doolittle 1997), Kenneth Miller (Miller 1999), and others have advanced scientific arguments aimed at falsifying ID. (See my articles on blood clotting and the “acid test” on this web site.) If the results with knock-out mice (Bugge et al. 1996) had been as Doolittle first thought, or if Barry Hall’s work (Hall 1999) had indeed shown what Miller implied, then they correctly believed my claims about irreducible complexity would have suffered quite a blow. And since my claim for intelligent design requires that no unintelligent process be sufficient to produce such irreducibly complex systems, then the plausibility of ID would suffer enormously. Other scientists, including those on the National Academy of Science’s Steering Committee on Science and Creationism, in commenting on my book have also pointed to physical evidence (such as the similar structures of hemoglobin and myoglobin) which they think shows that irreducibly complex biochemical systems can be produced by natural selection: “However, structures and processes that are claimed to be ‘irreducibly’ complex typically are not on closer inspection.” (National Academy of Sciences 1999, p. 22) Now, one can’t have it both ways. One can’t say both that ID is unfalsifiable (or untestable) and that there is evidence against it. Either it is unfalsifiable and floats serenely beyond experimental reproach, or it can be criticized on the basis of our observations and is therefore testable. The fact that critical reviewers advance scientific arguments against ID (whether successfully or not) shows that intelligent design is indeed falsifiable. In fact, my argument for intelligent design is open to direct experimental rebuttal. Here is a thought experiment that makes the point clear. In Darwin’s Black Box (Behe 1996) I claimed that the bacterial flagellum was irreducibly complex and so required deliberate intelligent design. The flip side of this claim is that the flagellum can’t be produced by natural selection acting on random mutation, or any other unintelligent process. To falsify such a claim, a scientist could go into the laboratory, place a bacterial species lacking a flagellum under some selective pressure (for mobility, say), grow it for ten thousand generations, and see if a flagellum--or any equally complex system--was produced. If that happened, my claims would be neatly disproven. How about Professor Coyne’s concern that, if one system were shown to be the result of natural selection, proponents of ID could just claim that some other system was designed? I think the objection has little force. If natural selection were shown to be capable of producing a system of a certain degree of complexity, then the assumption would be that it could produce any other system of an equal or lesser degree of complexity. If Coyne demonstrated that the flagellum (which requires approximately forty gene products) could be produced by selection, I would be rather foolish to then assert that the blood clotting system (which consists of about twenty proteins) required intelligent design.”
IOW if it ever demonstrated that living organisms can arise from non-living matter without agency involvement, ID falls as living organisms are the ultimate in IC.Joseph
June 15, 2009
June
06
Jun
15
15
2009
06:20 AM
6
06
20
AM
PDT
ID is based on three premises and the inference that follows (DeWolf et al., Darwinism, Design and Public Education, pg. 92): 1) High information content (or specified complexity) and irreducible complexity constitute strong indicators or hallmarks of (past) intelligent design. 2) Biological systems have a high information content (or specified complexity) and utilize subsystems that manifest irreducible complexity. 3) Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity. 4) Therefore, intelligent design constitutes the best explanations for the origin of information and irreducible complexity in biological systems. There it is Mark, in writing. Dr Behe has also stated the design inference would be falsified if it is demonstrated that unguided processes can account for all the IC we observe.Joseph
June 15, 2009
June
06
Jun
15
15
2009
06:07 AM
6
06
07
AM
PDT
Khan:
Given that detecting intelligence in biology is one of the fundamental goals of ID, it seems like you should be able to just give me an equation and a solved example with your eyes closed.
You have serious issues Khan. There isn't any equation. I have already explained how we reach a design inference. I have also explained how to refute said design inference. That you refuse to understand what I posted just exposes your ignorant-laiden agenda.Joseph
June 15, 2009
June
06
Jun
15
15
2009
06:00 AM
6
06
00
AM
PDT
Why is what I say true? Because once you remove the requirement foor a designer the design inference falls. THAT is EXACTLY how it has worked throughout history. And that means it isn't a strange method. As a matter of fact it is the ONLY method. That you don't understand that just proves yopu should not be having this discussion because you obviously don't understand science.Joseph
June 15, 2009
June
06
Jun
15
15
2009
05:58 AM
5
05
58
AM
PDT
#182 And again all YOU have to do to refute the design inference pertaining to the bac flag is to demonstrate it can arise via an accumulation of genetic accidents!!! Joseph makes similar statements to this a lot of the time, on the lines of: "all you have to do to refute ID is show that a natural alternative is possible". Statements like this raise a couple of interesting questions. 1) Why is this true? A designer of unspecified powers and motives could easily have made it look as though there were a natural solution. 2) Why does ID require this strange method of refutation? You don't refute special relativity or plate tectonics by showing an alternative is possible. You refute them by showing that these theories are incompatible with the data.Mark Frank
June 15, 2009
June
06
Jun
15
15
2009
05:29 AM
5
05
29
AM
PDT
Stephen, I asked for a biological example in my original question bc that is what I am interested in. Given that detecting intelligence in biology is one of the fundamental goals of ID, it seems like you should be able to just give me an equation and a solved example with your eyes closed.Khan
June 15, 2009
June
06
Jun
15
15
2009
04:48 AM
4
04
48
AM
PDT
Khan:
I am interested in biology
Then start by supporting YOUR position. Tell us how it was scientifically determined that the bacterial flagellum arose from a population that never had one via an accumulation of genetic accidents. Failure to do so will just further expose your agenda as one of deception and strawman arguments.Joseph
June 15, 2009
June
06
Jun
15
15
2009
04:29 AM
4
04
29
AM
PDT
“The only way we know anything about the people around Stonehemge is by studying the evidence they left behind.” David Kellogg:
Actually, we know something by looking at ourselves.
Two things wrong with that: 1- We wouldn't even know they existed if it wasn't for the artifacts 2- They did not watch TV or drive automobiles. IOW they weren't like us at all with the only exception that they were human.
Point is, the flagellum comes before the existence of any intelligent life on earth.
The bac flag on Earth that is. And again all YOU have to do to refute the design inference pertaining to the bac flag is to demonstrate it can arise via an accumulation of genetic accidents!!! Imagine that you have the power and yet you choose ignorance.
So: intelligence before intelligence!
You mean intelligence in the universe before intelligence on Earth. But I understand that you are very limited in the use of vocabulary...Joseph
June 15, 2009
June
06
Jun
15
15
2009
04:27 AM
4
04
27
AM
PDT
Khan:
actually, distinguishing between positive and purifying selection would be a good way to get at the types of questions you’re asking.
Vey, very doubtful. And seeing that you have proven to be deceptive I would say that you are just plain lying.Joseph
June 15, 2009
June
06
Jun
15
15
2009
04:21 AM
4
04
21
AM
PDT
Stephen (179), Can you give me your answer to your own question, with explanations (i.e. no marks unless you show the working out!)?Gaz
June 15, 2009
June
06
Jun
15
15
2009
12:53 AM
12
12
53
AM
PDT
----khan: "I am not interested in analogies. I am interested in biology, not hypothetical words written on Mars, which are irrelevant because they are not biological organisms. so please get back to me when you want to talk about biology. again, just take any biological structure you want and explain to me how you calculate the effects of intelligence." My question @170 is not an analogy. You challenged my general statement about measuring the "effects of design," which had nothing to do with biology. At the moment, I can prove my point much more easily outside of biology than inside biology, so that is the course I choose to take. It is, after all, my point, not yours; so I am the only one who knows where it is going. If, on the other hand, you are not prepared to follow up on your own challenge, then perhaps you should wait before issuing another one. My question @170 is very easy and you should be able to answer it.StephenB
June 14, 2009
June
06
Jun
14
14
2009
10:18 PM
10
10
18
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5 6 10

Leave a Reply